Salvation

This subject is so vague sometimes. Some people say, if you say the prayer and meant it, you are a christian, which I disgree too. You have to be changed and repent. Some say if the Holy Spirit is in you, you will change automatically.

But I think most of question our salvation from time to time especially when you were good at controlling your sin but when you fall, you might feel that you were never saved in the first place. Even Franis Chan sometimes questions his salvation. So what is the definitive answer?

It's very hard to talk about this at church where everyone has to act perfect, not because of God but for people.

So, here is an example. Lets say you do drugs or smoke or any other sin. The church frowns upon this so around christians you have to act like you just quit cold turkey. But most of the time, you just can't quit cold turkey. This goes for any sin: sex, masturbation, hatred, anger, impatience, etc.

And many times you question your salvation because you still are doing the sin. You tell yourself that if you were really saved Holy Spirit would not allow you to sin.

So is there a good site or anything that dictates the in's and out's of salvation?

you have to act like you just quit cold turkey. But most of the time, you just can't quit cold turkey. This goes for any sin: sex, masturbation, hatred, anger, impatience, etc.

This gave me an idea. There are Two Ways to Stop Sinning: Way to stop sinning number one is Cold Turkey. Way to stop sinning number two is Hot Turkey - in hell.

Pick any one of those. It should apply to all. I'm not a crazy sinner or anything. Just your average Joe.

Let's pick drugs. Let's say you're addicted to crack and you get saved. Holy spirit gives you power to never do crack again from that moment on in all cases? You can use smoking in this example.

What about the sin of gluttony? Our body is a temple of God. But how many people do you see quit all normal foods and go on a strict vegan diet cold turkey to never go back?

How about pornography or even lust. What if you saw a pretty girl walk by? Even Francis Chan said that those temptations don't go away from you because you are saved. Isn't it a constant war between flesh and spirit for all the days of my your life?

What about anger? Someone deliberately tried to hurt you or your family? Or you just caught your wife cheating on you? after you were saved. Someone just raped someone close to you and they show up next to you?

I'm not understanding the responses so please clarify. So everyone saved would have stopped cold turkey? Then we would be perfect after salvation?

I think people confuse temptation with sin a lot.

It is not wrong to have temptations or feel certain emotions if we have no choice about it. Sin is only when we choose to do something wrong.

Sin we have to stop cold turkey because sin is rebellion against God and it dishonors him. Temptation is something we pray to be kept from but remember Jesus experienced great temptation. Temptation is something we will have but sin we must forsake completely.

I recommend a book for you it is real cheap about six dollars but it is a very good book on explaining what has happened through the cross of Jesus to the believer. The book is called the Normal Christian Life by watchman nee, trust me it is real good and real deep. If you are truly a believer your old self and sin nature has been crucified to the cross with Jesus, it was all judged on the cross. The book of romans is great at explaining that we as believers are dead to sin, we have to know this, we are no longer a slave to sin but to God and righteousness. We are now in the spirit and Christ is working in me now, i now overcome the deeds of the flesh because of Jesus Christ he has defeated sin, satan and death. As Christ rose from the dead we also have been rose to new bodies in Christ, we must know and reckon this and now live in the spirit, he has set you free if your a believer. Do not sow to the flesh but to the spirit, satan wants you to do the things of the flesh so he will tempt you and bring everything at you to defeat you but you must be strong in the word of God and do as james ch.4 says to resist satan and submit unto God, your a new creation if you our saved. The spirit and flesh war against one another but choose the spirit. When Christ died on the cross you have to realize your old self died with him on the cross, your a new man. I will say this about the believer according to scripture you look at the church of corinth and they were at a time living in carnality, but through the sanctifying work of the holy spirit in them they grew and matured in the walk. In hebrews it says that God chastizes his children but the ones he doesn't chastize over their sin they are considered bastards. If God has saved you, you will have a desire to live for righteousness and to obey the holy spirit, if you sin and you will you will be convicted and will want to repent. One thing we have to understand is that we are saved by Christ through faith in him, even that gift of faith is given by God.When we believe in Christ as our saviour of our sins and our life and on his finished work on the cross we are given the very righteousness of Jesus, his perfect righteousness in which is the only way to stand before a holy God. We are justified or made right in Gods eyes and i guess you can say considered sinless because of Christ's righteousness. You are given an A plus from the beginning because it is nothing you can do but what Christ has done. If you sin you do not lose your salvation you our still cleansed by his blood if you our saved. In hebrews it says that he died as a sacrifice once and for all for all sins and we must believe that it was past, present and future because otherwise we would be saying that it is something we had to do to maintain it. You need to get a proper understanding of God's hatred towards sin, study it in scripture and though whatever way possible so you can understand how much God hates sin in so much that his only begotten son Jesus Christ had to die for us by bearing our sins upon himself. God's hatred and justice against sin is shown at the cross. He does not tolerate sin. Read habakuk, spelled it wrong ch. 1 verse 13. It says the Lords eyes are to pure to behold evil. Everytime we sin we are taking the side of satan over God. Christ shed his blood for us because sin was heineous before a holy God. It took his death to save us.I hope i helped.

@IWantAnguish

First off, I want to tell you I appreciate your posts. They really are insightful and help me out a lot.

about this:

And as for the topic of salvation...

Although I do not agree that people can make a choice to stop the inward sins of pride, bitterness, lust, envy, jealousy, hate, arrogance, deceitfulness, selfishness... I believe that the grace of God is more than able to change the direction and leanings of the heart in such a way that would be so supernatural, that only God could receive the glory for the change in the individual.

Do you agree with some posters here that God should do this instantaneously when you get saved and the Holy Spirit resides in you? And that the inward sins of pride, bitterness, lust, envy, etc are forever gone?

@benjoseph

I agree people do confuse sin and temptation a lot. But I need to clarify the issue at hand is do we continually sin after we receive salvation or not.

I believe so. I believe Jesus died not just for past sins but for current and future sins. I do not believe that after we are saved, we become sinless creatures.

I believe that even though the Holy Spirit comes into you, I believe you will still be prideful, etc until the Holy Spirit gives you the power to overcome those sins. Sure, sometimes you can quit cold turkey but that would matter if we only had a few types of sins. I believe that each of us has a multitude of sins because we were of this world.

Even in the way we speak to each other, we are heavily encouraged to sugercoat everything we say and lie to others in society. Isn't lying a sin? When I talk about sin, I'm talking about all sins, not just the major ones in society.

That Nee article sounds more like Buddhist/Zen philosophy than Christianity. If you stop trying you will succeed...

Jesus said to strive to enter in through the narrow gate.

Jesus said to be perfect.

Jesus said "go and sin NO more" - not "go and sin SOME more."

Jesus said if your eye causes you to sin, rip it out! and throw it as far as you can!

If your hand causes you to sin chop it off!

Great peace have those who love Your law,
And NOTHING causes them to stumble.
(Psalm 119:165)

If we stumble then we must not love God's law! Why is that? God's law is perfect? The law requires us to love God and our neighbor. Of course we should do this! Of course we can love God and our neighbor! If we stumble it is because we choose to love ourselves MORE than others. We cannot serve two masters. If we love our selfishness we will HATE God's perfect law of love. And of course we will do nothing but stumble and grope about as in the dark.

I have taught you in the way of wisdom;
I have led you in right paths.
When you walk, your steps will NOT be hindered,
And when you run, you will NOT stumble.
Take FIRM HOLD of instruction, do NOT LET GO;
Keep her, for she is your LIFE.
(Proverbs 4:11-13)

Do not think to say to yourselves "we are Abraham's children"

Whatever a man reaps he will sow.

If you go to the grocery store and buy junk food will you return home to find healthy food in the bags? Of course not. Whatever you spend your earnings on, that is what you will eat.

Whatever way a tree falls that is where it will stay.
If a man dies in his sin he will stay in his sin.

If anyone does not stumble in word, he is a PERFECT man, able also to bridle the WHOLE BODY.

If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth NOT his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, THIS MAN'S RELIGION IS IN VAIN.

If we do not bridle our tongues then our religion is in vain. If we bridle our tongues then we can be perfect. We must choose between perfection and useless vain religion.

i have found nee to be very helpful while reading normal christian life, i don't know about that quote though.

i recommend brother to read this carefully on the sacrifice of Jesus, he died once for all.

1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.
3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;
4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;
5 And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.
6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.
7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. hebrews ch. 9 kjv

24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.
hebrews ch. 7
very important he died once and for all and his sacrifice wa sufficient for all sins to those who are justified by him. He is on the mercy seat forevermore to make intercession for the saints.

@logic.

When is the last time you sinned?

Will you ever sin again?

No disrespect to you logic but can anyone backup what he is saying? It sounds nice but I need to see someone live like that to believe it. I HAVE NEVER SEEN ANYONE LIVE LIKE THAT.

It sounds like you can be PERFECT and flawless after you have the Holy Spirit in you. Or maybe even before the Holy Spirit is in you.

What about idolatry? I heard someone tell me that if you can't throw away anything in your life in that instant, it is idolatry.

Let's say you saved up for a TV or a guitar or even a nice meal. If you can't give it up in that instant, that is idolatry.

I'm just trying to prove a point. This just doesn't make any sense. You said

It is imposible to sin as you walk in the spirit.

then you reply

Quote: codek said: When is the last time you sinned? I don't know, it's been a while. I have not recently chose to rebel or be disobediant towards God. I have not neglected anything which would cause me to sin either. Why do you ask anyway?

What I'm saying is that sin in somes are involutary. You previously said it is impossible to sin as you walk in the spirit which we should be doing at all times after we are saved. but in the next quotation that it's been awhile since you sinned. I thought after we're saved, we never sin?

The devil wants us to believe that we can never be free from sin. The devil sometimes accuses people of sinning even if they are not doing anything wrong on purpose. God will never accuse us of sin unless it was on purpose. Anything involuntary is just a mistake which we don't need forgiveness for, but it is still good to apologize for mistakes for the sake of others.

A Christian is just someone who is following Christ. Being a Christian is an everyday choice. When we sin we are not following Christ so we are not being a Christian while we sin. That doesn't mean that God doesn't want us to repent and resume walking as a Christian daily.

So Christians don't sin because being a Christian means following Jesus who did not sin. But Christians CAN sin because they have free choice. If a Christian sins he is no longer following Jesus who did not sin. They are not worthy of the name Christian while they are being deliberately selfish and sinning. But God wants them to repent so he can forgive them and they can walk as sinless Christians again.

God is slow to anger and long-suffering with us. We should not put him to the test like the Hebrews in the wilderness who sinned and died.

It should be every man's plan to never sin again. God does not deserve us to sin against him and we should not sin against each other either. Let's love God and each other and never sin. Let's put sin behind us and grow in love as God teaches us.

As Leonard Ravenhill says, "It is not impossible (for a Christian) to sin, but it's possible not to commit sin."

But how many christians live that life? I have seen [B]NONE[/B] that never sinned. It's only possible if someone has done it. Name a person. Out of the billions of people living on this earth and the billions before it, name one besides Jesus with no sin after conversion.

This is my point. I challenge anyone to never sin even it's from now on.

If it's possible, prove it. Salvation to me is a gift. You weren't righteous, you can't earn it. What God wants is for you to try your best. Trying your best is the sign that you have the Holy Spirit in you. But try as we might, we will still fall from time to time because we live in this flesh.

Hi codek,

Do we continually sin after we receive salvation?

Salvation is God's undeserved promise to forgive sins that are in our past. If we have sins right now in our present then we will not be right with the Father until we confess and forsake those sins. Once they are in our past then he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

As long as we are walking in the light and not disobeying our calling then we have salvation through Jesus.

Some people backslide and then either repent or die in their sins. Other people repent once and never sin again. Someone like Jesus never sins in the first place.

Wherever we are coming from we must lay aside our sin and continue in love and holiness until the end.

I believe that even though the Holy Spirit comes into you, I believe you will still be prideful, etc until the Holy Spirit gives you the power to overcome those sins.

Sure, sometimes you can quit cold turkey but that would matter if we only had a few types of sins. I believe that each of us has a multitude of sins because we were of this world.

Even in the way we speak to each other, we are heavily encouraged to sugercoat everything we say and lie to others in society. Isn't lying a sin? When I talk about sin, I'm talking about all sins, not just the major ones in society.

The bible says love fulfills the law. All we need to do is be properly loving. It is not a burdensome or grievous command. Sometimes life is very painful, like it was for Jesus, but he overcame the world and so can we.

christian perfectionism, what is the point of Christ dying for our sins, because we cannot save ourselves and live righteous enough to ever stand before a perfect and holy God, you know that is the requirement to stand holy before God, you must be perfect, that is why Christ died for us because we couldn't, and even after we our saved we don't live perfect but we stay justified with the righteousness of Christ always. What is the point of sanctification or growth and maturity. We are perfect in the eyes of God because of Christ but we are sinners still saved by grace. Codek i am happy you understand we are righteous because of Christ and nothing we do. For us to enter the presence of God on our own behalf we must be perfect. So we are saying that we are saved by Christ but it us who will have to continue to perform and work to keep that status of justification, no it is only by Christ. Their are sins the Lord has not revealed to all of us even yet. Brother i recommend staying away from christian perfectionism, yes you should desire to live and be perfect in your walk, but you will not by your works not until your glorified will you be sinless. Study into Christ's imputed righteousness by faith.

If we pretend we tried our best and then give up and sin then we are disobeying God. BUT if we truly try our best then we ARE obeying God. If we don't know all the answers to something this is not a sin. If our weak physical bodies limit us from doing something, this is not a sin.

I'm sure there are plenty of people who never sinned after their conversion. I also think there may be people who never sinned besides Jesus. We just wouldn't necessarily hear about them. But isn't it sad how discouraging all the sin in the world is?? It even leads people who seem to truly hate sin to think that it is impossible to be free from sin. If we sin we are guilty for this wicked example we would set for others. It is such an awful discouraging influence. As the bible says "ruin and misery are in their ways".

But the Lord says, "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke on you and learn from me, because I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy to bear, and my load is not hard to carry.”

John says, "His commandments are not grievous."

God will always provide a way of escape from temptation.

We've all been challenged to never sin again. The Holy Spirit challenges us continue sin-free every day.

It doesn't matter how many other people have sinned. We can be sin free. It doesn't matter how much we've sinned in the past. We can be sin free. It doesn't matter even if we were the most wicked sinner on earth, we could stop sinning immediately and trust in Jesus Christ.

Let's all accept this challenge.

"I also think there may be people who never sinned besides Jesus. We just wouldn't necessarily hear about them." benjoseph

"This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23FOR ALL HAVE SINNED AND FALLEN SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus" Rom 3:22-24

"I also think there may be people who never sinned besides Jesus. We just wouldn't necessarily hear about them." benjoseph

"This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23FOR ALL HAVE SINNED AND FALLEN SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus" Rom 3:22-24

If you want to read my notes on this passage I've stored them here http://sites.google.com/site/benstenson/romans_3_9-30

"This passage says "all HAVE sinned" - it does not say "all WILL sin". It was written two thousand years ago and was only referring to people who had sinned up to that point." benjoseph

Romans 3:21-24 Righteousness Through Faith
21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

He is simply describing righteousness apart from the law in Christ which has now been made known to which the Law and the Prophets testify. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile for both have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Jews and Gentiles are still here today. And there is also no difference between the two if they accept Christ and are justified freely by God's grace in Christ. No difference... both have sinned and both can be justified in Christ. As has been stated via testimony of the law and prophets, The Bible is capable of prophecy and therefore we can also assume that 'ALL have' means then, now, and in the future. It also says 'ALL who believe' as all who believe in Christ it will be credited to them as righteousness. We can't separate the two. Either 'ALL' means 'ALL' as in then and always moving forward or 'ALL' means just up to that point for both. And if the latter is the case then Christ is not for today but just then. It doesn't say 'ALL will believe' yet the promise of righteousness in Christ is still for today. The prophets testified to then and now, as the world and the sin in it has not changed. I don't know about you but I see sinfulness all around me today and the sins committed look similar to the ones then.... so they need a Savior. And if 'all who believe' are just for the sin that pertains to just then... then no one should be calling Jesus as Lord and Savior today. I see sin today just as there was then and I see a Savior at work just as there was then. Otherwise the cross is in vain.

Revelations speaks of church repentance. Repentance from what? And when? Was this only for them 2000 years ago too?

"Those who might have never sinned would definitely have faith, otherwise they would have sinned." logic

And yet you cannot provide any evidence of this. The one who might?? Convenient. You and Benjoseph basically say 'there have been others who have not sinned' BUT we just don't know of any. This is a convenient assumption for you. You both live in a world of 'mights and buts'. The evidence, biblical and otherwise, is exactly the opposite. No one sinless except Christ who knew no sin. When you can unequivically produce the 'sinless man' outside of Christ then your argument can hold water.

He is simply describing righteousness apart from the law in Christ which has now been made known to which the Law and the Prophets testify. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile for both have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Jews and Gentiles are still here today. And there is also no difference between the two if they accept Christ and are justified freely by God's grace in Christ. No difference... both have sinned and both can be justified in Christ.

As has been stated via testimony of the law and prophets, The Bible is capable of prophecy

and therefore we can also assume that 'ALL have' means then, now, and in the future.

This passage is not a prophecy or a statement of how things will always continue to be. There is absolutely no justification for twisting "all have sinned" to mean "all do sin" or "all will sin". That is reading your own ideas into the bible.

It also says 'ALL who believe' as all who believe in Christ it will be credited to them as righteousness. We can't separate the two. Either 'ALL' means 'ALL' as in then and always moving forward or 'ALL' means just up to that point for both.

And if the latter is the case then Christ is not for today but just then.

It doesn't say 'ALL will believe' yet the promise of righteousness in Christ is still for today.

The prophets testified to then and now, as the world and the sin in it has not changed. I don't know about you but I see sinfulness all around me today and the sins committed look similar to the ones then.... so they need a Savior. And if 'all who believe' are just for the sin that pertains to just then... then no one should be calling Jesus as Lord and Savior today. I see sin today just as there was then and I see a Savior at work just as there was then.

Otherwise the cross is in vain.

The cross would truly be in vain if people could NOT live sin-free. If we can't help sinning at some point then WHY must someone DIE for it? Why couldn't God just be fair and understand that we couldn't help it. The doctrine of inevitable sin makes the cross in vain - not the truth that we are able to love God and our neighbor.

Revelations speaks of church repentance. Repentance from what? And when? Was this only for them 2000 years ago too?

And yet you cannot provide any evidence of this.

The one who might?? Convenient.

You and Benjoseph basically say 'there have been others who have not sinned' BUT we just don't know of any.

This is a convenient assumption for you.

You both live in a world of 'mights and buts'.

Let's try to edify each other in the truth instead of saying "you live in a different world" and things like that.

The evidence, biblical and otherwise, is exactly the opposite. No one sinless except Christ who knew no sin.

When you can unequivocally produce the 'sinless man' outside of Christ then your argument can hold water.

But what about John the baptist's parents? They had lived well into old age without sinning. But will you believe it even if the bible says so?

Okay Benjoseph what's the endgame for you here? It surely doesn't say 'all will not sin'. Are you saying that TODAY anyone can be sinless without Christ?

And are you saying that this sinless state without Christ is sufficient to see the Father in heaven?

Who needed a Savior then?

Who needs a Savior now?

Is there anyone who is not in need of Christ??

this is the kind of childish thread that brings reproach to the witness we are given, that is the Sweet Fragrance of the Resurrected Messiah Jesus, and of the Blood, Which is wholly sufficient for cleansing of sin.

Child-like faith and absolute dependence on God, are good and pleasing to Him, childish religious arguments on a PUBLIC forum are a stench to Him.

Seek the "inner court" and just worship Him, for His sake, stop this nonsense, please beloved.

"they will not need Him as Savior." logic

Okay. Thank you. I will heed brother Natan's timely admonishment and bow out now.

Okay Benjoseph what's the endgame for you here? It surely doesn't say 'all will not sin'. Are you saying that TODAY anyone can be sinless without Christ?

Once you hear the true Gospel however, and understand it, then you can never be sinless apart from Christ because if you see the light and reject it you make yourself a sinner.

And are you saying that this sinless state without Christ is sufficient to see the Father in heaven?

Who needed a Savior then?

Who needs a Savior now?

Is there anyone who is not in need of Christ?

Children don't need a sacrifice for sins they have not committed, yet still need Jesus. The Lord is more than a sacrifice for sin, though it is an awesome thing that he has done for us.

ccrider I hope I haven't given you the impression that I have some kind of hidden agenda or that I'm trying to be sneaky or something like that. I'm sorry if anything I say is unclear. Sometimes I don't make myself easy to understand for some people.

Also after reading Natan's comment saying that we are having a childish argument - I did think some of what you said sounded not nice but I could have just been misunderstanding you. It is hard to tell over the internet. I certainly don't have any hard feelings about anything. I love you. Even if I thought you were the worst heretic to walk the face of the earth I would still respect you as having been made in God's image. Now, if I was just misunderstanding you then you can just say so of course.

Natan, I don't think it is necessary for us to call each other childish. Sometimes it is emotional to disagree with someone about very important things like our doctrine.

However, if you think we can use improvement in the way we discuss things then please offer specific suggestions for how we can do better. It seemed as if you were suggesting we just not discuss at all since we disagree. I don't mean to make you feel too bad or anything but it seemed to me like you were saying that God hates our discussion because we disagree and that you would rather we just shut-up.

I'm sorry if I've misunderstood or misapplied your rebuke. Please tell me if I've taken you the wrong way.

As long as we really are, in all honesty, loving God with all our heart, mind, soul and strength he will lead and be our God

If you love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength (all of your current ability) then you are morally perfect (sinless perfection).

The American evangelical church, which is the One True Religion, teaches that we are saved by reciting the sinner's prayer and we don't have to bother with all that obedience and sanctification stuff if we don't happen to feel like it. That settles it. Anyone who believes otherwise is anti-American and probably an al Qaeda sympathizer.

The fruit of Full Sanctification is a preoccupation with brawling over the doctrine of full sanctification. We know this because everyone who achieves sinless perfection spends the rest of their lives brawling over Wesleyan doctrine, like when Wesley organized a community of perfected saints, and then had to disband it to keep them from killing each other.

Those who read our posts will be encouraged to not sin and be truly convicted knowing that they could have avoided sin but still chose to.

I agree with this and pray that it is true. How can you have a revival without repentance and obedience? Is God too busy to start a revival? Are we waiting for him? Or is he waiting for us?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BYoyN-biMY

ifound a video hereby tim conway sinless perfectionism by tim conway.

"I'm sorry if I've misunderstood or misapplied your rebuke. Please tell me if I've taken you the wrong way." benjoseph

Hi BenJoseph. If there's one thing I can see here among the disagreements is your heart in this. And I think we can both agree that we both hate sinfulness and love Christ. This is most important with the love of eachother being tantamount to these. God bless.

(edit) Let me also add that the Bible says that God is not unjust. This cuts through the theological bantering on sinlessness in certain area's such as children and the handicapped. I have no worries that God will pardon justly, and see perfectly, without partiality or inconsistency. I don't need perfect theology to know this nor connect the dots rightly to understand it. Judgement that is reserved for us will always be just and perfect regardless of how any of us see this played out.