A further work in Christian's life after conversion

Gal 2:2-3 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

The above scripture ask us a question “having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?” but it also lets us know that there is further work to be done in us after conversion.

Did we get it all at conversion well according to Paul we who believe in Jesus as Our Lord and Savior have begun but we haven’t got it all we are not perfected as Paul says and will never be perfected by the flesh…….

[b] For ye are yet carnal regeneration does not remove all sin [/b]

In 1 Cor 3:3 we see that there is still carnality remaining after conversion. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? Christians after being regenerated still have carnality in them. For ye are yet carnal, believers yes but carnal. Regeneration does not remove all sin.

Paul in 1 Cor 3:1 says that he could not talk to them as Spiritual but carnal and even goes as far saying that they are babes in Christ. So they are believers but carnal. Regeneration does not remove all sin.

Dr. Charles Hodge: "According to Scripture and the undeniable evidence of history, regeneration does not remove all sin."

The Elder Dr. Steven Tyng, Episcopal Church, New York. He said to those who were joining his church: "Though truly a child of God, you still carry with you a heart far from sanctified, a remaining sinfulness of nature in its appetites and propensities which demands unceasing vigilance. You cannot afford to relax your vigilance over these outgoings of your own sinful hearts."

What a declaration! "Children of God," yet “still possessing "sinful hearts."

Paul in Roms 7:25 gives us some insight to what happens after Regeneration with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. What he is saying is that he wants to please God but finds that there is a law of sin and because of that law of sin he is yet carnal sold under sin. Roms 7:14.

So to sum it up when we first believed this did not make us perfect little Christians and that there is a further work that needs to be done because there is carnality remaining in us.

[b]Is there a cure for the carnality [/b]

Romans 6:4-7 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.

Here we are told that we are free from Sin because our old self was crucified with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

So there is hope we can be free from the remainder of sin (carnality) after regeneration but does Water baptism finish off any remainder of carnality after regeneration?

My own personnel experience would say it doesn’t deal the death blow to carnality but what does scripture say;

1 Peter 3: 21 the like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Water baptism does not put away the filth of the flesh……So what baptism puts away the filthiness of the flesh. Water baptism is a symbolic burial by which the new Christian publicly declares they have died and that they are beginning a new life, in Christ but it’s not the baptism that deals the death blow to carnality.

Mark 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

The prophet John tells us of another baptism that Jesus has this is the baptism with the Holy Spirit…

Does this baptism deal with carnality with the filth of the flesh?

Acts 15:7-9 after much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.

Peter implies that his heart is purified by saying "He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith" but he also states that he witnessed the gentiles having there hearts purified by getting the Holy Spirit.

The Baptism with Holy Spirit is the baptism we need to clean our hearts and deals the death blow to the remainder of sin (carnality).

Ah you say but that the heart is not the old self (old man) that Paul speaks about in Romans 6………

Here’s a verse about the heart Jeremiah 17:9 the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Here’s a verse about the old self (old man) Ephesians 4:22 that ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts.

How does God describe our heart he says the “heart is deceitful and desperately wicked " Jer 17:9

How does God describe the old man it is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts Ephesians 4:22

The heart and the old man are the same thing and we find that the Holy Spirit will cleanse our heart or remove the old man and it’s this Baptism of the Holy Spirit and only this baptism which will deal the death blow to carnality in the Christian life…………

Further to that with the Baptism of the Holy Spirit you put on Christ Galatians 3: 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Christ is the new man you have put on in Baptism of the Holy Spirit and he is created in righteousness and true holiness Ephesians 4:23.

When God started opening my eyes to a deeper work in a Christian life after conversion and started to talk about it I was challenged by a man he said “show it to me through the Apostles Paul’s life and teachings” which I hope I have managed in this post.

[b]A further work in Paul’s life after conversion [/b]
Lets look at Paul’s life we all know about what happen in Acts to Paul on the road to Damascus and his conversion…but what happened after conversion we know he spent at least 3 years in Arabia and Damascus…

Galatians 1: 17-18 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus. Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.

So what happen there he tells us that that after he was called he found out the purpose it was to reveal his Son in him Galatians 1:16

This is a completely different work that comes after conversion, you see my friends the reason you are regenerated and called is so the Son of God can be revealed in you, this will and can only happen when the old man is gone and the new man is put on which is Christ where we are created in righteousness and true holiness in Him.

Would you please define "regeneration".

Would you please define "regeneration".

Regeneration in my own words would mean that you were once dead to God but now alive you have been born again I was aware that my sins were forgiven. This was not something I earned but because God sent his Son Jesus to die on the cross. Jesus paid the full price for my salavation and it was because of him I could now go to the Father, I have been adopted in God's family and am his child.

For myself it came when saw I need to see to change my way of life as I could not go another day living that way. I said a simle prayer "God change me, I am fed upbeing like this" he heard it and changed me.

So what scriptures would you point to in defining regeneration?

If I could paraphrase what you said, "regeneration is change", would you agree? What exactly changes?

So what changed?

Well when I said "God change me I am fed up being like this" what happened next as I lay down on my bed was a wind left me, after that a wind blew into me.

John 20:21-22 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

So you could say this happened at this time

Ephesians 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience.

Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Colin: Great post brother. I might add that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is the power source for victory in the life of a believer. Remember Jesus said He was going to give us power to be martyrs. This could be literal, but I believe refers more to the life laid down as a living sacrifice. After all, it is the living sacrifice that is able to lay down the physical body as well. KJV translates this "witnesses", but the greek is literally martyr. It is through the power of the Holy Spirit that I am able to mortify the old man and live after and walk in the Spirit. I have found this to be so key to victory in my life. Thanks for the post brother.

Travis

ByYeDoers, I would add to AlivetoGod's list the entire first portion of John chapter 3. The term "regeneration" is not in the Bible, but the concept of regeneration or rebirth is. Born again is regenerated.

Travis

This is something that I haven't really been exposed to. I believe Christ is my savior and Lord, how do you know you have recieved this second baptism? According to Pentecostals speaking in tongues is the physical evidence of being baptised in the Holy Spirit, but further study for me is pointing more to the only true evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit is a changed life. If this be true I ask that you all pray for me to recieve this baptism for Christ glory. whether I recieve it or not I will praise Him for He is worthy of praise!

God Bless,
Matthew

Classic Pentecostalism teaches that there is a second work one can receive after one's salvation, whereby the individual is "baptized in the Holy Spirit." Pentecostals believe that when one is saved, one receives the indwelling and renewing work of the Holy Spirit. Later, one can receive the "baptism" of the Holy Spirit, whereby one is empowered by the Holy Spirit for ministry and witnessing. Often the following illustration is used to demonstrate this:

If one were to take a glass of water, and fill it up, this would be an example of one receiving the Holy Spirit at salvation. But if one were to take the same glass, and submerge it in a tank of water, this would represent being baptized in the Holy Spirit. In this, one is said to be "filled to the overflow," whereby the ministry of the Holy Spirit isn't just effecting your personal salvation, but is becoming a stream of living water that makes a difference in the lives of others through you.

Classical holiness teaching, which is in opposition to the Pentecostal view...

It should be noted that there are some Pentecostal groups that came out of the holiness camp, and see there being 2 additional works after conversion. They see there being 1) Salvation 2) Sanctification 3) Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

My biggest thing with Pentecostalism is not really with the beliefs but the individual people I know that act in contradiction to this belief. If Christ be in them wouldn't they be different from the whole world? Of course this is a common consistency in most if not all denominations. I pray that God would bring back the Fear of the Lord on the Pulpits of America and send revival. We have forgotten who we serve a righteous and Holy God.

God Bless,
Matthew

These are all very good posts. I would like to add that after salvation by 'the blood of Jesus Christ cleansing us from all sin" 1John 1:7. God sanctifies us by His Holy Spirit. We have to do our part to stay clean. 2 Cor.7:1..dearly beloved let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God. We must cleanse ourselves from every sin of the body and spirit. This means breaking away from every ungodly compromise and continually resisting the desires of the flesh.
We must put to death the sinful deeds of the body. We must hate the very thoughts of sin.Proverbs 8:13"The fear of the Lord is to hate evil". The things of the world we must hate and the things of God we must love with all our heart ,soul, mind, and body. The temptation to sin will not be as great the closer we live to God, because sin will be so horrible to us.

Your post was right on!! But this one quote stuck out to me...

BeingMolded wrote:
The temptation to sin will not be as great the closer we live to God, because sin will be so horrible to us.

The sins are diffferent... true, we won't always be plagued by smoke, drink, or cursing but there are so many other sins in our personality that needs to be redeemed that we would be like John, "I must decrease that He would increase" (John 3.30).

This war for territory (in us) is [b]never[/b] over, there are different devils on different levels but it's God who gives the increase over all these if we "love mercy, do justly and walk humbly with our God" all the days of our life (Micah 6.8).

God bless you!!

how do you know you have received this second baptism? According to Pentecostals speaking in tongues is the physical evidence of being baptised in the Holy Spirit,

This is Pentecostals, not Bible. The tongues one should really be concerned about is the speech. Read the book of James.)

but further study for me is pointing more to the only true evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit is a changed life

You are right on.

A defining point in whether one is a Christian is how he lives, his character. Is there any evidence of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in this life? Does this person hanker after God and his holiness? People can talk but how do they act? Talk is cheap but holiness is costly. Revelation 2,3 talk about the sins that bedevil Christians which will result in them "having their candle being removed from the lampstand." This list hits pretty close home.

My understanding...

ginnyrose

Just wanted to point out from the KJV, that within Titus 3:5 falls the clause 'by the washing of regeneration', which clearly harks back to both the water and the word (John 15:3; Eph 5:26; Heb 10:22).

Forgot that scripture. I stand corrected.

Travis

I have been reading all of the posts, and felt I had a few things to add for history sake, for everyone to think about, and for personal testimony.

KingJimmy is right in his knowledge of different pentecostal groups. The 20th century pentecostal movement in America has its roots in the ministry of Charles Parham and what happened in Topeka, KS in 1901 (I believe I have the year right). My great grandparents often spent time with the Parhams, and I grew up knowing many people who sat under his ministry. Parham was originally a Methodist. At that time they taught something called the second blessing which occurred subsequent to conversion and which gave the Christian the power to live a life of holiness by giving them an ability to overcome sin in their lives in a way they had never experienced since conversion. I have studied this experience through original writings from the Cane Ridge revival of 1800-1801 which was primarily a Methodist revival. I believe from my research that what they experienced is what we call the baptism of the Holy Spirit, but that move had grown very cold in the Methodist denomination as a whole by Parham's time, and the Methodist church as a whole was in a pretty sad state spiritually. I even read of some speaking in tongues at Cane Ridge. So, when Parham and those at Topeka received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, it seems they tacked it on the end of what they already knew and called it a third experience. Hence, as KingJimmy said, salvation, sanctification, and the baptism of the Holy Spirit. This was the way I was taught as I grew up.

Parham's doctrine of sanctification was a bit strange. He taught that one was justified of past sins at salvation, but was not yet born again. Upon consecrating his life and receiving the experience of sanctification one was then born again. These experiences could be years apart. So it was possible, by his teaching, to be justified but not born again.

William Seymour was one of Parham's pupils in his school. Seymour founded the work a Azusa street. As the work progressed a man by the name of Durham fell into a doctrinal disagreement with Seymour over the issue of sanctification. People called it the finished work doctrine as he taught that one was justified, born again and sanctified, or set apart for God's use, at salvation. To him, it was all one and the same experience. He taught that one walked out sanctification as a progressive work.

The two, Durham and Seymour, parted ways. Most triniterian pentecostal holiness groups (Not the oneness groups) spring from Seymour and Parham's work. The Assemblies of God and other similar works came out of Durham's ministry. (Hope that answers your question Brenda) Obviously I grew up in the former and there was still much distrust of the latter. I was taught it was sin to attend movies, for men and women to swim together (mixed bathing it was called), etc. It was after I was a teenager that girls at our church camp near Baxter Springs were allowed to wear anything other than dresses, and then only jeans for recreation for two or three hours in the afternoons.

Parham and most other pentecostals taught and still teach that speaking in tongues is the Biblical evidence of having received the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The reason for this is an examination of the five instances (believe I have the number right) recorded in scripture of people being baptized in the Holy Spirit. In three of them people immediately spoke in tongues. In two of them tongues is not mention. In one of those two instances there was something outward that happened by implication as someone saw what happened and wanted to pay money for the same thing. It may have been tongues and it may not have been.

I can give you some history of tongues and my own personal experience. I have seen the copies of newspaper clippings from 1901. Language experts attended some of Parham's meetings and documented several known languages that were unknown to the speakers including one lady (Agnes Osmann sp?) who spoke in several distinct Chinese dialects. I have heard many first hand accounts from people I knew well who delivered a message in tongues and an interpretation as in 1 Cor. and had the contend verified by people who were in the audience for whom that tongue was their native language. My own great grandfather preached an entire sermon in Spanish while in Mexico. He did not even know how to ask where the bathroom was, but under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit he preached in another tongue.

I don't believe that speaking in tongues is a requirement for being baptized in the Holy Spirit. I do believe that praying in tongues devotionally is important. I have seen the gift of tongues and interpretation in operation as well as the other seven gifts listed in 1 Cor. I believe there is a lot of evidence in the life of a believer of Holy Spirit baptism that is not speaking in tongues. But, I do believe that one who has been baptized in the Holy Spirit can and eventually will speak in tongues.

I was born again when I was 8 and my life was radically transformed. I received the baptism of the Holy Spirit when I was 18. Due to my teaching on sanctification, I believed that I had to reach some arbitrary level of holiness before I qualified to be filled with the Holy Spirit. So, whenever I would ask the Lord to fill me with His Holy Spirit, I would immediately be condemned over some little thing I had done or failed to do. As a result, I was never able to receive in faith. It was then that a minister made me to understand that I did not need to have a certain standard of holiness in order to receive the Holy Spirit, but I needed the power of the Holy Spirit indwelling me in order to have a power over sin that I never had before. It was this revelation that caused faith to come and I received the baptism of the Holy Spirit. I did speak in tongues immediately. I also felt as though I wanted to sing out praise to the Lord. So I began to sing, but it was a melody I did not know in a language I did not know. There was a friend of mine that received the baptism of the Holy Spirit at the same time. I noticed that I was not singing alone. She and I sang together a heavenly duet. Same melody, same words, both unknown to us. Recall Paul said, I will sing in the spirit, I will sing with my understanding, I will pray in the spirit, I will pray with my understanding. Praying in tongues is a daily part of my walk with the Lord, and from it I receive great edification as well as pray in faith over things I don't know how to pray for in the natural. But tongues are not the focus, nor were they ever supposed to by. The purpose is the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit of God. Jesus said, the Holy Spirit has been with you but will be in you. I have had a power to live a holy life since that time that I did not have before. I have had revelation of the Word of God since that time that I did not have before. I have had God speak to me and direct my steps more clearly since then than ever happened before.

I firmly believe that the baptism of the Holy Spirit (receiving the indwelling presence of the comforter spoken of in John 14) is a second definite work separate from and subsequent to salvation. Acts 19 records that the people who had not received the baptism of the Holy Spirit were already believers, were born again, but had not yet been water baptized and had not even heard that there was such a thing as the Holy Spirit. I don't believe that Acts 1-2 and the extensive teaching in 1 Cor. 12-14 were for a specific time period during which the original 12 apostles were alive and working.

I agree that there are those in the pentecostal ranks that don't live what they profess. But, I don't think that any more true there than in any other group or denomination you could pick out. When people who name the name of Christ don't walk the walk of Christ it sours many to the gospel. Jesus said there would be tares among the wheat. In the end they will have to answer for their own hypocrisy and for those that they led astray. In the meantime I pray both for them and others to be born again.

Well that is my perspective for you to consider, and I hope some answers to some questions.

Blessings.

Travis

Hi krautfrau...

Classical holiness teaching, which is in opposition to the Pentecostal view...

Unknown languages were spoken at Pentecost but that was specific for the time, where Babel was reversed.

One knows when one has been baptised because of the cleanliness felt within and the heart that praises God 100%. One then can live the overcoming life, filled with joy no mater what the circumstances. The proness to wander has been healed and we are now a pillar in the temple of the Lord God, no more going in and out but staying firm with the abiding presence of God with us.

I do agree that my walk with Christ was strengthened by this subsequent experience. I suppose that I never planned on straying from the faith even before it though.

*** It is important to see that there is a difference between the Holy Spirit Himself, as a Person, and the gifts of the Holy Spirit. In Romans 11:29, Paul tells us that the [i]gifts ... of God are irrevocable[/i]. In other words, once God has given us a gift, He never takes it back. We are free to use it, not to use it, or to misuse it. But even if we misuse it, God does not take it back. Otherwise it would not be a genuine gift; it would only be a conditional loan.

It is a fact that people do misuse gifts of the Holy Spirit. Paul provides a clear example in I Corinthians 13.1:

Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become as sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.

Obviously the Holy Spirit Himself does not become a [i]clanging cymbal. [/i]But the gift of speaking in tongues - when misused - can become an empty, discordant noise. Unfortunately this often happens in Pentecostal and Charismatic circles.

I believe it is possible to misuse other spiritual gifts - such as a word of knowledge or a gift of healing. This can happen when a person uses a spiritual gift to achieve a result or promote a movement which is not in harmony with the will of God. One obvious misuse would be for personal gain.***

Taken from Derek Prince’s “Protection from Deception” book.

----------------------------

I just wanted to add that even though tongues and other gifts have been misused, it's no sign we should throw the baby out with the bathwater (speaking of any gift not just tongues). We need to seek the Lord for HIS truth on this matter and love the truth we receive from Him whether it agrees with our theological doctrine or our church's doctrine or not. It's most important that we "receive the love of the truth."

God bless you all!

Brenda:

Many have tried to define holiness in terms of concrete outward actions, and in these groups the definitions are as varied as the different "rules" upheld by these groups as the "standard of holiness". The better you keep the rules, the more holy you are. The more holy you are the more of God you can have. It is ceasing to rely on God's grace and placing yourself back under law. Others define holiness in terms of how good you are at not doing something. This is where you speak of not committing intentional sin. I don't see this as the definition of holiness either. I believe Romans 6:19-22 defines for us what holiness is. It is the fruit of having been made righteous by the blood of Jesus and living a life surrendered to God. Holiness is not something that a person who is not born again can "do". It is not something we can do in our own flesh, and people who are not born again can only walk in the flesh. It is not something a Christian can do in his or her own power. It is the fruit of righteousness and is the natural outflow of who we are through Jesus Christ and it can be lived only insomuch as we are able to live outside of our own ability and in the power of the Holy Spirit. Another way to put it is that holiness is the fruit that is borne by the root of righteousness. Holiness is coming into agreement with God and with His word in every area of our lives. It is what naturally flows from our lives when we walk in the Spirit. Jesus said the through the Holy Spirit we would be given power to be witnesses, but the original language says martyrs. This may be literal, but remember that Paul taught that we were to be living sacrifices. Martyrs who have laid their lives on the altar no matter what. This is holiness.

As to the role of praying in tongues in my personal life an how it enhances ministry, I can tell you best with some scripture on the matter. 1 Cor. 14:4 says that in praying in tongues we edify ourselves. At times when things are tough or hard to deal with, or when I am tempted to be discouraged, I will pray in tongues worshiping the Lord more than usual. In 1 Cor. 14:2 we find that when we pray in tongues we speak mysteries. Couple that with Paul's explanation in 1 Cor. 2 of how through the Holy Spirit we can know the things of the mind of God, we can see that praying in tongues can be very powerful. There are times when I don't know how to pray over a situation in the natural. By faith I pray in tongues over the situation knowing that I can pray and intercede, bypassing my limited intellect, and agree with the Holy Spirit over the matter. I have prayed from time to time that God would interpret to me what I am praying, similar to how an interpretation to a message in tongues corporately would come forth. I have had times when, as I prayed in tongues over a situation, the Holy Spirit revealed to me what I was praying.

I think to say that holy living in pentecostalism faded as tongues increased is based on quite a few assumptions and perceptions. First, one must assume that tongues are some kind of "new" thing that entered with the modern pentecostal movement. I don't think that the case. Over the centuries there have always been men and women filled with the spirit who spoke in tongues. I would agree that more people have been brought into pentecost in the 20th century than ever before. Second one must be able to examine the lives of all those who speak in tongues and truly see them as God does, which cannot be done. I would say that if you looked from the outside at any denomination over the last 100 years you would have to say that the standard of holiness has declined. This is not a pentecostal thing, but a general body of Christ thing. I don't disparage the church, but I do believe we (the body of Christ in general) have become a product of our culture as a whole more than a product of walking close to God. If anything, I have seen a greater external standard of holiness among the pentecostals I have known than I have seen in most other denominational divisions I have experienced. I am not trying to compare denominations. I believe denominations are not God's construct anyway. I am just saying that I have trouble answering the question of "why that is" because I am not so sure it really "is".

By the way. Many confuse praying in tongues as a believer baptized in the Holy Spirit with the gift of tongues that must be accompanied by interpretation listed with the other seven in 1 Cor. I don't believe they are the same.

Travis.

William Seymour was one of Parham's pupils in his school. Seymour founded the work a Azusa street. As the work progressed a man by the name of Durham fell into a doctrinal disagreement with Seymour over the issue of sanctification.

William Seymour was a pupil of Parham but when Parham visited Seymour in CA he rebuked him strongly for mixing two races causing Seymour to question the true Salvation of Parham and his baptism.

I believe the true dispute was between Parham and Durham, I actually remember reading in my studies that Parham would pray God would kill the one that was wrong, When Durham died first Parham declared himself the winner of this argument.

I also agree that praying in tongues can be a great devotional thing and I also have seen tongues and interpretation as far as 1 Corithians is concerned. Is speaking in tongues required for salvation? No. I will attest that it has helped me prayer life to pray in the Spirit.

I am just wanting to see God's presence to be so strong on he pulpits of America that even the holiest of men fear and tremble before God. This won't end the blasphemy we see today but will hopefully cause repentance. Thanks so much for your post it was encouraging.

God Bless,
Matthew

I am of the Holiness persuation.

A chorus says,
"Second blessing holiness
victory within.
Sanctifying power,
burns out inbred sin.
Sceptics say it cannot be,
but I know tis true.
What the Lord has done for me,
He will do for you!"

Brenda wrote:

I accept that others think differently and interpret the scriptures I have mentioned in a different way and have had experience of what they believe and so I do not wish to argue about the matter. We will know the truth one day.

Why do people write a long post and then end it with "so I do not wish to argue about the matter?" (huge grin) I'm just kidding with you!! But on the up-side, I am glad in your graciousness you accept others like me who think differently and interpret the Scriptures way differently than you because I in no way, shape or form agree with anything you wrote!! (very friendly grin) I'm sorry but your whole last post read like the "why I don't believe the baptism is for today" book; it's like you guys all study or read the same book or something.

That's ok because I'm not here to argue with you! And I apologize, I do agree with you on one thing... "We will know the truth one day!"

God bless you Brenda

Matthew: True, there was a lot to the story, and details vary a little bit depending on where the information comes from. It amazes me how God uses people who are so imperfect. I guess it shouldn't. After all, He uses me. I too pray for His presence to be that strong. Wigglesworth used to step into train carriage compartments and people would begin to weep and cry out that he convinced them of sin without his having to speak a word. Oh for that kind of presence of God in my life.

Travis

Brenda: Praise God we don't have to fall out over tongues. I can only give you my own experience and the experiences of those around me. From the content of your posts, I am sure that you fully understand the key points and arguments around which this discussion revolves. I would not agree with your interpretation of the verses in 1 Cor. 13. What I can agree with is a hunger for the presence of God and a desire to see His presence and power manifest in the lives of people. Like I said, this is not academic to me as it has been a powerful part of my walk with God for over 20 years now. I guess the theologians would call it "experiential", but all I know is that it happened to me. :-).

Blessings to you as well.
Travis

Alive to God, good question. Let me see if I can do it justice.

We have so many pieces of terminology in the body of Christ that become so loaded with all kinds of different meanings depending on how we have been taught. "Saved" is one of those terms. Most occurrences of the term in the NT are from the greek sozo which has both "secular" and "religious" connotation. We could be saved from danger as in Acts 27:20. In most cases where it is used to indicate salvation in the Christian sense it is unclear WHAT exactly we are saved from. The Bible usually say something like, "they shall be saved." The term salvation is used, usually from the greek soteria, with similar meanings. But again, it is usually unclear as to WHAT this salvation is from.

The church world has adopted a saying that we are "saved from sin". Again, this terminology is so loaded with meaning based on what camp one comes from. Some would say you are "saved from ever sinning again", others would say you are "saved from penalty from PAST sins", others would say you are saved from going to Hell because of sin", and on we could go with various shades of meaning. But I cannot find that we are saved from sin in scripture. What I do find stated explicitely is that we are saved from the WRATH of God. See Romans 5:9 and 1 Thess. 2:16. God's judgment on my sin was borne by Jesus Christ on the cross. There are only two possible types of righteousness that I can have. One is self-righteousness, that which comes from my ability to be good in my flesh. This type is filthy rags in God's sight. Those who strove to keep the law were trying to obtain righteousness this way, and instead what they reaped was death. 2 Cor. 3:7 (specifically referencing the ten commandments, the foundation stones of the law). The second type of righteousness is God's righteousness which can only be obtained by putting faith in the gift of God's grace. In context Hebrews 10 says this sacrifice was once for all TIME. Once this sacrifice is applied, it need never be done again. We don't need to come continually before the Lord for the sacrifice of the blood of Christ to be repeated for each new offense. If we sin the Holy Spirit will convict us, we can repent (turn from that sin), and walk in the forgiveness that has already been extended.

The point is that my salvation was from the wrath of God, from the judgment that was rightfully mine. That is the answer to the question, saved from what?

Being born again and being saved are not the same thing, although they occur at the same time (are part of the same exchange so to speak). Saved is delivered from the wrath of God through faith in the grace extended. Born again is the regeneration of the Spirit man. In John chapter 3 we find Jesus' clear teaching on this matter. When I was born again I became a totally new creature in Christ 2 Cor. 5:17. Whereas I was once dead to God in my Spirit, separated and alienated from Him, I am now righteous and my spirit has been perfected forever. I was dead in sin, now I am alive to God.

The problem is that my flesh (the rest of me that is not spirit including mind, will, emotions [often called "soul"] and my physical body) was not born again. If I had a rash before I was born again, chances are I will still have that rash. My body has not been glorified yet. Romans 8:23. If I had filled my mind with evil thoughts before I was born again, or if I was prone to bondage to emotions before I was born again, chances are I will still have to deal with those things after I was born again. My mind does not automatically become a blank slate. Paul talked about this in Romans 12:2 and said that we as living sacrifices must be transformed as our minds are renewed.

It was the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the power that comes as a result of the indwelling comforter (parakletos, the one who comes along side me to give me aid, help, assistance, power, authority, etc.) (Acts 1:8) that gave me the power or ability that I needed to walk in a great level of victory over my flesh. Recall that Paul taught that it was walking in the Spirit that allows us to not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

So you see, saved does not imply total victory over sin. It implies freedom from the curse of the law, from the judgment and wrath that comes on us because of our unrighteousness. Paul makes this point so clearly taking the first half of his letter to the Romans as a whole. Romans 1:18 is setting up Paul's case that God's wrath is revealed against all for sin, regardless of whether they are trying to be righteous by keeping the law of Moses or some other lay they have concocted on their own. He then proceeds to demolish the idea that one could ever obtain righteousness by keeping the law as it was the law that ministered wrath and judgment in the first place. It was the unobtainable standard against which we would be compared unless we had a savior to rescue us from the consequences of sin.

God does give us power over sin, and the grace to live a holy life. Titus 2. I have found that outside of the baptism of the Holy Spirit as revealed in John 14, Acts 1-2 we are limited in our success.

Hope that answers the question. Sorry it is so long. So much goes into the answer.

Travis

(...Another long post here, and I'm sorry to post it right after Travis' long post. I hope people will not skip over his, will take the time to read it, which to my mind is very good. I've enjoyed reading all through this thread. Very good. Very important.)

As to there being a further work after conversion…

The Promise of the Spirit was the reward the Father gave the Son after His Cross and sufferings. And the Son shared that promise with His waiting disciples, poured out that promise upon them on the day of Pentecost.

“Therefore being at the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear” (Acts 2.33).

(And so the measure of the Spirit we enjoy… it’s always such an awesome thought to me that this which I now see and hear, I know it’s given to me, but it’s actually the promise the Father gave the Son… this is the Son’s greater anointing, the "same anointing" "...that went down to the skirts of His garments.")

It seems among many who claim “the baptism” that they feel with this second experience they now have it all. That’s how it was among the holiness people of the 19th century… and also among the Pentecostals of the 20th century, generally speaking I think. But it isn’t all. Far from it. It is but the beginning.

“In whom ye also, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also, after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of His glory” (Eph. 1.13,14).

Again, in 2 Cor. 1.21,22: “Now He which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.”

And this in 2 Cor. 5.5: Now He that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.”

And so the deposit of the Spirit that Paul had, and the early church had (the deposit given at Pentecost) was this “earnest” Paul talks about. The word “earnest” is “arrabon” in the Greek. It means “pledge, down payment, guarantee.” Vine says, “It is used only of that which is assured by God to believers; it is said of the Holy Spirit as the divine pledge of all their future blessedness… particularly of their eternal inheritance.” Someone once told me the word arrabon is used in modern Greek of an “engagement ring.” And I see in my edition of Vine that he confirms this usage.

So the earnest of the Spirit is the promise of a wedding to take place… in which the bride becomes one with the Bridegroom. She has in the meanwhile her promise and guarantee of that wonderful event: her ring, her jewelry, her earnest of the Spirit, her “gifts” variously expressed.

But when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part is done away… or swallowed up in the fullness. The “perfect” that Paul was talking about in 1 Cor. 13 is Love Himself. This is what Paul has been talking about in Chapter 13. “But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away” (1 Cor. 13.10). When Love is come, and the Bride becomes one with Him, and herself becomes, you might say, Mrs. Love… then the gifts which are in part are done away and swallowed up, as a cup of water would be in the ocean… as the wedding ring is as it were replaced, or swallowed up, in the bridegroom. And the bride now walks… not in gifts any more, but in Love. And lest we relegate this off into the distant future on somebody’s all-figured-out time chart, Paul makes clear this is not so much an event as it is something we pursue and grow into... from a child to a fully mature man. “When I became a man…” “Follow after love…”

So “the baptism” that people have set their sights on and so often settled for… it is itself just the beginning, the guarantee of “the redemption of the purchased possession.” And what is the redemption of the purchased possession “to the praise of His glory”? Well, you and I are the purchased possession. And so the redemption of the purchased possession… it’s far more than just “going to Heaven.” It’s you and I so totally possessed by God that we walk as he walked, we walk in Love HERE. It’s you and I born of the Spirit, filled with the Spirit and so totally led by the Spirit that we are one with the Son of God Himself, and walk in love (Eph. 5.2), walk as HE walked “in this world.”

“Herein is love with us made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment, because as He is (and John is talking about the love of God here) …so are we in this world” (1 Jn. 4.17). That’s redemption, the fullness of redemption, of liberty, of being set free. It’s the full expression of the love of God IN US, total freedom to love as God Himself loves.

…And so the Pentecostal baptism is but the earnest of the Spirit, which God has given to bring us to this fullness of the Spirit, the “adoption,” the “huios-thesia,” being “placed as sons,” being just like Him… “in this world.”

That’s our heritage in Christ Jesus. The love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. WE are the purchased possession… and in the gift (singular) of the Holy Spirit we have the down payment and guarantee of that redemption. And as we continue to walk and give the Holy Spirit His lordship in our lives, and do not grieve Him as Israel in the wilderness did when they stopped short their inheritance (God’s ultimate goal and purpose for them) He will bring us to see our inheritance and redemption in all its fullness.

And so… “And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption” (Eph. 4.30). How we need to learn to be sensitive to the Spirit, and give Him His lordship and way in our lives. He knows where He is going. He knows where He is leading us. Let us not stop anywhere short. We must get past our “puddle thinking” in which we have an experience along the way and think we have arrived and have it all. Jesus said the Holy Spirit is a River… not a puddle. Puddles quickly get muddy. A river cleanses as it flows… because it FLOWS. And so how we need to get into that River of the Spirit, and give the Current His lordship, and flow in those “waters to swim in” that Ezekiel saw.

…How awesome all this is.

Hi Brenda....

I don't know if I can agree with you though regarding the behaviour of Pentecostals v the rest of the church. All of the cases of falling into sexual sin and fraud have come from that part of the church. Now I am not saying that this is the truth - that they are less holy. All I am saying is that all of the cases I have heard about have been high profile charismatic leaders. I am open to be proven wrong on this if anyone has evidence.

Moreover, there are examples of other sins amongst non-Pentecostals. Chronic gossip, backbiting, pride and other forms of the "little foxes" can be just as unholy as a sexual sin or fraud. Of course, I am not trying to defend any particular group of ministers (Pentecostal or not) in regard to such an accusation. However, I think that it is unwise to equate some type of "cause and effect" that links a particular sin with a doctrinal persuasion.

I think that this also bears consideration: Not everyone who says that they are Pentecostal or Charismatic are actually Pentecostal in the classical definition. Just like it is true that not every "Christian" (or church goer) is truly born again, there are plenty of "Pentecostals" and "charismatics" who have, admittedly, never been baptized with the Holy Spirit.

I attended an Assembly of God congregation during college. A missionary came to visit the congregation and preached on the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. He spoke about a type of "peer pressure" amongst Pentecostal and charismatic congregations in which people feel the need to be included as having been baptized in the Holy Spirit when they never really had such an experience (at least, an experience as described by most Pentecostals).

At the end of his message, he asked this congregation (which was morphing from a classic Pentecostal congregation into a more "charismatic" congregation), "How many of you have never truly been baptized with the Holy Spirit?" I was surprised when roughly 85% of the congregation (of about 400 that night) raised their hands. This included several elders and deacons of a very Pentecostal congregation. This "lumping together" of believers who attend Pentecostal churches and adhere to Pentecostal belief is not the same as speaking about specific individuals who have genuinely claimed to be baptized with the Holy Spirit. This is something to keep in mind.

David Wilkerson is a classic Pentecostal minister. In [i]The Cross and the Switchblade[/i] (written by David Wilkderson with John and Elizabeth Sherrill), Wilkerson spoke about the difference that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit made in the lives of former drug addicts. He asked several of the former gang members and drug addicts about which point in their lives that they truly felt "free" from various addictions (sexual, drug, etc...). Wilkerson recounted that, time and again, these former addicts pointed to their personal "baptism of the Holy Spirit."

Granted, there is plenty of bad fruit that can be pointed at in the lives of highly visible preachers (many of whom are charismatic). However, it isn't wise to lump a Benny Hinn or Todd Bentley in the same basket as David Wilkerson or Carter Conlon. Besides, sin is not confined to any particular doctrine, creed or experience. Some of the greatest men in the Scriptures were still prone to sin. I don't think that anyone would question David's position as a "man after God's own heart" even in the shadow of a sordid adulterous affair or murder. If we really wanted to closely examine every minister, I imagine that we might find some sinners hiding behind the pulpits of many non-Pentecostal churches too. Maybe this is why Paul often instructed believers to test themselves.

But now that this is pointed out, suddenly they are just the same as other denominations - do you see the contradiction?

Some may count Benny Hinn and others as leaders in the Pentecostal movement, but there are just as many, if not more, who do not. Indeed, most Pentecostals I know denounce him as a false prophet. It should be noted that Benny Hinn, to my knowledge, lost his credentials with the Assemblies of God back in the early 1980's. So officially speaking, the denomination ceased to recognize him many years ago. In some sense people might look to him as a leader today, but hey, some people thought Jim Jones was a leader as they prepared to drink Kool-Aid.

Whatever the case, Scripture only exhorts us to recognize individuals as leaders who live model Christian lives, both in personal piety and the ministry they undertake. Scripture exhorts us to imitate those who are examples of what it means to be a Christian, and to follow Christ as they follow Christ. So, only those "Pentecostals" whose lives are worthy of imitation, and there are many, should be followed as leaders.

And if I dare, might I be so bold as to say that ministers who deny ever having been baptized in the Holy Spirit (whether they spoke in tongues or not is a moot point in my book), should not be followed as leaders. No doubt, such men may live excellent Christian lives, and for that we should model them. But, unless they carry out their ministry in the power of the Holy Spirit, while they may be excellent Christians, their ministry is being done in carnal strength and reasoning, instead of a dependence upon the ministry of the Holy Spirit working through them.

I know this last statement may seem over the top, and a hard pill for some to swallow. But if we as Christians are going to be truly apostolic in our faith, I believe this must be the case. The baptism of the Holy Spirit isn't just a questionable doctrine that has no practical application for today, rather, it is a reality we are called to enter into, and to walk in. We need the fullness of the Spirit.

My earlier point though is that these denominations are claiming for themselves a higher ground than other denominations...

in that they feel they are not grieving the Spirit whereas they feel that others are...

which is in direct opposition to what is heard though the media concerning great falls from grace...

Thank you and God bless you, Brenda!

Hi Brenda...

You have made a valid point I think - that the ministers I am referring to are high profile, but note that I was speaking of the leaders and not the man in the pew. I find it hard to believe that an unbaptised believer would get through the ranks to be in leadership and if so then there is something seriously wrong with denominations that understand the necessity of rebirth and the necessity of baptism in the Spirit.

However, I think that I understand your underlying point. What good is it for a man to be a highly visible minister who purports to be a Spirit baptized miracle worker...if that man is caught up into the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes or the pride of life? Of course, this was covered by the Paul in I Corinthians 13...in which instructions from the "love chapter" were spoken in the middle of instruction about the gifts of the Spirit (I Corinthians 12 and I Corinthians 14). Paul started off by saying, "[i]Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity...[/i]" Supposed gifts (or even real gifts) that result from a purported Spirit baptism are useless if they aren't accompanied by real faith and love.

I am amazed at the statistic you quote that 85% say they have not experienced the blessing which is taught to be vital in the Christian life, and even elders included. There is something amiss here and only 15% should be speaking in tongues yet from my own experience only a few admit they do not. No doubt they are aware that disclosure would cause others to see them as second class.

At the same time, I have met some wonderful men and women who were baptized with the Holy Spirit and lived very godly lives.

My earlier point though is that these denominations are claiming for themselves a higher ground than other denominations in that they feel they are not grieving the Spirit whereas they feel that others are which is in direct opposition to what is heard though the media concerning great falls from grace and there have been many you must admit that some of them quite shocking. But now that this is pointed out, suddenly they are just the same as other denominations - do you see the contradiction?

If a group are claming a higher ground then they should be showing this in their behaviour and not be just like the rest.

Personally, I found my own experience to be a bit different from much of what is taught in Pentecostal or charismatic circles. I think that I am, by nature, rather skeptical of the claims and teachings of men (including those that come in the form of denominations or local congregations). I was not baptized with the Holy Spirit until a certain amount of time after I surrendered my life to the Lord. After much study, I was convinced that this experience existed and did not cease with the first apostles or the end of the first century.

I sought the experience with great diligence...but it just didn't happen. After one day spent seeking this experience, I remember just giving up. I was somewhat disappointed, and reflected that I might have been seeking gifts rather than the substantive effect that those gifts could have on my relationship with the Lord. I poured out my heart to the Lord in prayer. I told the Lord that I didn't want to be baptized in the Holy Spirit so that I could speak with tongues, prophesy, or have some other recognizable gift. I told the Lord that I just wanted to know Him more...to be more intimate with Him...and more readily equipped to serve Him while I walk on this earth. I got to the point where I didn't even care about "tongues" and told the Lord as much.

I began to worship the Lord in tearful sincerity. As I worshiped the Lord, the baptism came. As I wept, my mouth uttered words that I did not understand...but understood were not meaningless babel. As logical, analytical and skeptical as my mind can be, I even considered those words and phrases. But I quickly realized that it was not from me. The words of James 1:17 immediately came to my mind. Those words that I was speaking flowed with joy and tears as they poured from my mouth. The only thing that I can compare that experience with is the one in which I came to Christ...in that my heart was completely enraptured with the knowledge that I, a mere teenage boy, did actually know the Lord God -- the one true Living God.

I knew that there was a difference immediately after this experience. However, my experience was different than what is often shared from pulpits in charismatic churches. In regard to tongues, I couldn't simply "turn it on" or "turn it off" like pastors in many churches (who often instruct believers to speak or pray in tongues on cue). However, there are moments when I am praying...thinking about something or someone...and even while reading a newspaper article about something...when I am overcome with passion or compassion...and it happens afresh (just like that first time). The tears flow...and so do the words.

As great as an experience as this was in my life, I am still me. I am not Superman, Superchristian or some sort of Christian robot. I am always thinking about the Lord. He is the center of my universe and the central theme of my life. However, unfortunately, I am still me. This is the great wrestling as I endeavor to rid myself of, well, myself as I am formed in the image of Christ. Yet, sometimes, I am still tempted by the things of this world. I am tempted by pride, laziness, gossip, lust, anger, etc... Of course, it seems that this was true in the early church too. Paul and Barnabas had a divisive split in regard to taking John Mark with them on a journey -- so much so that they split fellowship over it (Acts 15:36-40). Likewise, the Apostle Paul had to rebuke the Apostle Peter in front of other believers over something as superficial as circumcision and other former legal requirements (Galatians 2:11-16). These men were certainly baptized with the Holy Spirit and spake with tongues...yet were still prone to error.

However, I do agree that it is unbecoming to proclaim to live for the Lord in a highly visible manner and with such an "enhanced" experience and then live, move and even preach things that are contrary to the Word of God. The world looks at that and cries, "Hypocrite!" They are correct. You would think that a Todd Bentley, Ted Haggard, Aimee Simple McPherson, Earl Paulk or other charismatic preachers were perceptive or "gifted" enough to realize that they shouldn't be preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ while living in gross sin. You would think that the often-charismatic prosperity preachers like Benny Hinn (and perhaps 90% of those that appear on TBN) would know better than to teach men to covet the things of this world (if they were truly baptized with the Holy Spirit).

The examples you quoted from scripture are indeed true but they were not in proportion to how many fall today and with the benefit of being in NT times. This period of history is unpresidented in the shame which is being brought upon the church. Others did fall in the past but even the fact of the immediacy of the media does not stop the MANY who are betraying Christ today.

It is a common device to claim that all sins are as bad as each other but this is not true. Some sins are much worse in the destructiveness they have for society and family life and sexual sin is one of them.

Yes, there are plenty of high profile preachers who have fallen into sexual sin. However, we can't properly compare this handful of high profile supposedly-charismatic ministers with the many thousands of ministers (career ministers or lay ministers) who have existed over the past 2000 years. However, I have read local articles about preachers from many denominations who have fallen into sin (including sexual sins). Thus, this isn't confined to charismatic or Pentecostal circles. However, I suppose that you are correct in that it looks worse when it comes from men who present themselves on such lofty pedestals.

The best thing that we can do as believers is realize that "all men are grass." We should "test everything" and "hold onto the good" (I Thessalonians 5:21). That way, our faith will not rest with man but with God.

ADisciple wrote:

It seems among many who claim “the baptism” that they feel with this second experience they now have it all. That’s how it was among the holiness people of the 19th century… and also among the Pentecostals of the 20th century, generally speaking I think. But it isn’t all. Far from it. It is but the beginning.

Very true. In my estimation, the baptism of the Holy Spirit was never intended to be "optional equipment" for a believer, but was intended to be integral to our walk with God. It is not a plateau to be scaled and stood upon, but the indwelling presence of God, the same power that raised Christ from the dead, that empowers us. It is a little bit like purchasing a new tool. It is not for the sake of placing in the living room and admiring with pride, but rather it empowers you to go out there and get the things done that you needed the tool to do.

Travis.