Born in Sin with sin nature or not?

Some say yes some say No. How could this be. 2 views one word. Why would God make the bible not clear on this subject. I have searched out both views and I am leaning towards a Yes but I could be wrong also. It's not 100% as far as I can see.

I listen to a teaching from Jesse Morelle called the false doctrine of original sin. That did not help at all. Made me think opposite not that what he was saying was false but maybe confused not very clear.

Listen to some other that preach Sin nature but haven't had a real strong revelation of it yet, i'm still leaning towards this way but maybe only 85% sure and that's not enough...
What would preachers like zac poonen, carter conlon, leonard ravenhill be believing or believed on this issue?

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=19312&commentView=itemComments]Exceeding Sinfulness Of Sin by Leonard Ravenhill[/url]

At first glance this doesn’t seem to matter whether one believes that we all inherit a sin nature or become one by our own desires. It does matter and is extremely important to have this doctrine settled, for it can affect numerous other areas of teaching and actually affect our walk.

What does this logically mean if we are not born with a sinful nature, inclined to sin? It means that we are born sinless.

If their is no sin nature passed on then we have the potential to be perfect by not doing any wrong. But there is no one who can do this as Paul states

Rom 3:10: "As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one.

If it were true that none of us are born sinful then each one of us is being tested all over again, just like Adam to see if we will fail. The Bible says that, "The wages of sin is death." Sin is first and then the consequence is the payoff. Romans 5:18 -19 says, "through one man's trespass, judgment came to all men, for by one man's disobedience all were made sinners." This Scripture clearly shows sin is inherited through his (Adam's) disobedience, not ours. The bible says we are all under the condemnation of sin. The Bible speaks of sin not as a biological flaw but a spiritual infection that is transmitted through the reproductive cycle finding itself in all humans corrupting their nature. Romans 3:23 says, "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." If one entertains the though that they are born without sin, then they have the glory of God. The only one who has the glory of God as their nature is God.

One can be a sinner without showing any actions outwardly. Sin is being selfish, one can have a wrong attitude and desires contrary to God and not act upon it. Jesus said to have these thoughts in our heart is still sin even if not done outwardly. He stated in the sermon of the mount that one did not just break the law from their outward actions but it started on the inside. What made one a transgressor of the law is the intent of our heart. Even if one did not commit the physical act of murder, if they harbored hatred toward someone in their heart this is where sin begins. They have already broken the law and are guilty.

What the teaching of no original sin is saying is that no one dies spiritually until they sin. This means everyone is born innocent (perfect), just like Adam was made, just like Jesus, without ever having a virgin birth. The root of the problem is their interpretation of sin. Sin entered the world through one man (Rom. 5:12-21). The definition of sin varies. Not only does it mean "to miss the mark" of perfection of God's goal, but it also carries the concept of separation from God, which we all share in. Paul's point is that Adam's sin was a representative act and all his posterity has reckoned to their account having sinned in him. Adam was the natural headship of the human race. From him flows man's fallen nature, passed on through the bloodline (the life is in the blood). Only Adam became a sinner by sinning. The sin nature affects the immaterial part of man, which consequently affects our outward actions. consequently affects our outward actions.

The view of man being born without original sin is not new but goes back to 400 A.D., where Pelagian taught that there was no such thing as original sin.

He taught that Adam's sin affected only himself, that every soul is created innocent and only personal sins are imputed. So it was possible, according to this view to live a life without sin. Man having absolute freedom to choose good by his will. Then it also becomes possible to be saved apart from the Gospel. Augustine challenged the view that Pelagius promoted in the 5th century. Pelagius saw sin to be basically a outward work of man, who had the freedom to choose to sin or not to sin.

Augustine appealed to the overall teaching of scripture. Stating that sin incapacitated man from doing good.

He stated that we are born sinners and actually lack the power to do good. Yet we all choose bad over good and in so doing are held accountable for our actions. Augustine gave a story of a man who abstained from food that was necessary for his health and became so weak that he could no longer eat at all. While he was a human being created in having a obligation to eat to keep himself in good health, he no longer was able to do so. So Augustine argued humanity through Adam as the federal head of the human race became incapacitated toward God unable to obey and love him which was the very purpose we created.

He stated that we are born sinners and actually lack the power to do good. Yet we all choose bad over good and in so doing are held accountable for our actions. Augustine gave a story of a man who abstained from food that was necessary for his health and became so weak that he could no longer eat at all. While he was a human being created in having a obligation to eat to keep himself in good health, he no longer was able to do so. So Augustine argued humanity through Adam as the federal head of the human race became incapacitated toward God unable to obey and love him which was the very purpose we created. Pelagius held the view that one could raise themselves by their own effort toward God and that grace is a reward for our own human virtue. Augustine centered his argument around the fact that the fallen race of mankind is helpless to do any good until grace falls upon him. When gods grace touches an individuals life he is then able to move toward God and do good that is required of him. The concept of Augustine became known in reform theology as total depravity. Pelagius view was rejected and called heresy then, and should certainly be rejected today, also.

Psalm 51:5 is clear. Regarding those who are so vexed by the text that they must accuse David's mother of sin, here are John Gill's words:

2. It is objected,that David here speaks not of his own, but of his mother’s sin, and a very broad intimation is given, that this was the sin of adultery; and, indeed, if he was conceived in a sin of his mother’s, what else could it be? This shows, that these men are grievously pinched with this text, and miserably put to their shifts, to betake themselves to such an interpretation, at the expense of the character of an innocent person, of whom there is not the least suggestion of this kind in the sacred writings; but on the contrary, she is represented as a religious person. David valued himself upon his being related to her, and pleads, that he might be regarded by the Lord for her sake (Ps. 86:16; 116:16). [b][u]Moreover, had this been the case, David must have been excluded from entrance into the congregation of the Lord; for there was a standing law (Deut. 23:2). in Israel, which forbade a bastard to enter there until the tenth generation; whereas it is certain, that David often went into the house of God with company, where he enjoyed much spiritual pleasure and delight (Ps. 43:4; 55:14; 122:1; Ps. 63:1, 2; Ps. 84:1, 10).[/u][/b] Once more, it is beside David’s scope and design to expose the sins of others, much less his own parents, whilst he is confessing and lamenting his own; and to what purpose should he mention theirs, especially if he himself was not affected by them, and did not derive corrupt nature from them? To say no more, the particle b, in, relates not to his mother, but to himself; it is not said, my mother in sin, that is, being in sin, or through sin, conceived me; but, my mother conceived me in sin, that is, as soon as I was conceived in the womb, and the mass of human nature was shaped and quickened; or as soon as soul and body were united together, sin was in me, and I was in sin, or became a sinful creature. Some, who do not run this length, yet say, that the sin and iniquity in which David was conceived and shapen, was the sinfulness of his parents, in the acts of begetting and conceiving him, though in lawful wedlock. But this cannot be true; since tire propagation of the human species, by natural generation, is a principle of nature implanted by God him-serf, and therefore cannot be sinful; and is agreeable to the first law of nature, given to man in a state of innocence, be fruitful and multiply. Marriage was instituted by God in paradise, and in all ages has been honorable in all, when the bed is undefiled. Besides, one of the words here used, translated shapen, is of the passive form, and designs something in which both David and his parents were entirely passive, and means no other than that amazing and surprising act of formation he so much admires in Psalm 139:13-16. Others interpret these words of his mother’s conceiving him [i]in profluviis[/i], which usually produces a body impure, ill tempered, and subject to evil passions. The Jews and Isidore are referred to for this sense of them, though the former, as far as I have been able to observe, say nothing of 2:14. Sol. Jarchi, R. David Kimchi, R. Aben Ezra, and R. Abendana, understand the words of the corruption of nature in man as soon as he is born. And as for Isidore, both elder and younger understand these words of original sin, in which David and all men are involved. However, nothing of this nature can be concluded from the sacred Scriptures concerning David, but rather the reverse; since he is taken notice of, as no other man is excepting Moses, for his being comely, ruddy, of a beautiful countenance, and goodly to look to (1 Sam. 16:12, 18); and so far from having an unclean body of an ill temperament, or subject to bad qualities.

I careful study of history will show that the majority orthodox view on this subject passed down through the church, including the reformation traditions is that man is born into the curse of Adam. Whether we call this 'original sin' or not does not matter.

Whether you call it 'human nature' or 'total depravity' almost every Christian that has lived before our current generation has believed that man has been born with a fallen nature that is utterly sinful. The bible bears witness to this.

Romans 3:10-18 says,
“None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.”
“Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
“Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
“Their feet are swift to shed blood; in their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they have not known.”
“There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

Romans 3:23 sums this up by saying, "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"

Scripture bears witness that all mankind is naturally inclined towards sin because of the fall. No one, besides our Lord Jesus Christ has lived a sinless life. We are all under the curse of Adam's original sin until we come under the cleansing blood of Jesus Christ.

TaylorOtwell Wrote:
Psalm 51:5 is clear. Regarding those who are so vexed by the text that they must accuse David's mother of sin, here are John Gill's words:

[b]Psalm 51:3[/b] For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
[b]:4[/b] Against you, you only, have I sinned, and done this evil in your sight: that you might be justified when you speak, and be blameless when you judge.
[b]:[/b] Behold, I was born this way, It is my nature to sin, I couldn't hepl it.

Fact is, David was so emotional, he wasn't trying to be doctrinal, all he meant was that his parents were sinners & he was just adding to the lot.

iansmith wrote:
Romans 3:23 sums this up by saying, "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"

Scripture bears witness that all mankind is naturally inclined towards sin because of the fall.

You may wonder, what is it that causes us to choose our "want" or we may call them our affections toward either good or bad?

It starts when we are children; there is a time when a child does not know to choose between good or evil (Isa 7:16); however, as we mature, our assessment of right & wrong becomes clearer as conscience will confirm what is right or wrong(Rom 2:14-15).

Therefore, that which influences us to choose what we put our affections on, are the values that we have assembled using our conscience [b]or[/b] ignoring our conscience.

That which makes our values are the things which are important to us. The things which become important to us are our evaluation of the Eternal compared to the temporal.

If we life for this life only, well then...
However, if we are living for the next life, which is eternal, well then...
The knowledge of God is the beginning of wisdom (Psalm 111:10, Prov 1:7; 9:10).

Our own affections will influence, however, they do not cause our individual choices that we make.
The choice that we make usually follows our affections but our affections do not necessitate the decision.

Consequently, if you love yourself or the world more than God, you may not consistently do things that please Him.
Your decisions strongly tend toward your affections so that you will to do what you have favor towards.

No one, besides our Lord Jesus Christ has lived a sinless life.

We are all under the curse of Adam's original sin until we come under the cleansing blood of Jesus Christ.

Anything which [b]causes[/b] you to sin other than you choosing to sin lets you off the hook of your guilt.
If your choice to sin is caused by anything other than you wanted to, then you have an excuse.
See my reason above on why we may choose the thing we do.

Many times the Scriptures likens man to plants which bear fruit. Mankind has a nature to love, bear fruit & mature in it; not a nature of sin.

Our fruit, weather sin or righteousness comes from what choose to do of our own volition, being influenced by what we love or what we put our affections on.

The reason that one bears the fruit of sin is because he continues on choosing to act upon what they love &/or desire which the law or his conscience has shown to be unlawful more than the ONE who made the law.

Now, If you love the ONE who can deliver you from sin more than sin, you wouldn't tend to choose to sin.

I know scripture supports a sin nature but even simple observation prove sin nature without a doubt.

Have you ever had children? Do you have to each a child to lie or to tell the truth. Do you have to teach a baby to be selfish or to share? Do you have to teach a baby to hit or to be nice? and on and on - my wife and I ran a day care for 5 years and had children from newborn and up from every different home life you could image from devote God fearing Christians, Hindus to flat out atheist and everything in between and sin nature was crystal clear across the board. From the observation of over a 100 babies and children you couldn't convince me in a million years that we don't have sin nature - go work in the nursery at church for a couple of weeks and the case will be settled.

God bless,

Patrick
www.jonahproject.org

It starts when we are children; there is a time when a child does not know to choose between good or evil

you are right - they naturally choose evil 100% of the time unless they are taught differently - every run across a 1 or 2 year old who has not been taught to be good?!?! AHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!! They are naturally the most selfish and sinful creatures on the face of the earth - like I said - go work in the church nursery for a month and then report back - both Scripture and nature prove original sin.

God bless,

Patrick
www.jonahproject.org

All he meant was that his parents were sinners & he was just adding to the lot.

I agree. He was adding to the lot from his very birth! "I was brought forth in iniquity..."

No, mankind is naturally inclined towards what they want.

Yes, and if mankind is inclined towards what they want... since they do not want God they are sinners!

"but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." -Romans 5:8

If by our very nature we are inclined towards what we want... and we do not want God... we are sinners.

Christisking wrote:
I know scripture supports a sin nature...
...both Scripture and nature prove original sin.

Have you ever had children? Do you have to each a child to lie or to tell the truth.

Adam & Even sinned. Does that prove they had a sin nature?
Lucifer sin. Does that prove that he had a sin nature?

You all seem to you the fact that mankind sins as proofe of this so called sin nature.
If the fact that we sin proves it, then Adam & Eve & Lucife also had a sin nature.

You must use something other that the fact that we sin to prove sin nature.

From the observation of over a 100 babies and children you couldn't convince me in a million years that we don't have sin nature - go work in the nursery at church for a couple of weeks and the case will be settled.

To say that we are born with a "sin nature", you must be assuming that an infant already understands the concept of sin and/or is accountable for its own moral actions.

Childeren do not diliberatly do that which they know is wrong for the purpose of doing wrong.
Children are yet developing, learning & testing their world around them.
If you accuse children of sin, you are as ignorant as you say they are sinful.

It starts when we are children; there is a time when a child does not know to choose between good or evil

You are right - they naturally choose evil 100% of the time unless they are taught differently

The problem here is the definition of sin.

Sin must be willful, intentional, volitional choice do do that which you know is wrong in order to make one culpable It must be this so that he may be convicted.
If I didn't choose to sin, I am not culpable.
If I didn't choose to sin, how can you convict me of condemnation?

If I am caused to sin other than by my own choice, I can not be convicted with guilt, for I would have an excuse.
Why did I sin?
I was born this way, It is my nature to sin, I couldn't hepl it.

Please, lets start making sense.
You all need to answer the question that asks:
How are we culpable if we have a sin nature?

very run across a 1 or 2 year old who has not been taught to be good?!?! AHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!! They are naturally the most selfish and sinful creatures on the face of the earth

That conscience is part of our good nature which influences us to do good.

The fact is that people corrupt their [b]own[/b] way (Gen 6:12), doing that which they [b]know is wrong[/b] (Rom 1:19-20); searing their conscience as with a hot iron so to forget God to ease themselves of their own condemnation.

Fact is, if we truly had a so called "sin nature" we would have an excuse before God for our sin.

[b]Try this:[/b]
Just try to convict your naighbor of Adam's guilt.
He will laugh in your face.
Now convict him of his own guilt, then you will have his attention.

iansmith wrote:
and if mankind is inclined towards what they want... since they do not want God they are sinners!

"but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." -Romans 5:8

If by our very nature we are inclined towards what we want... and we do not want God... we are sinners.

There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band. A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, who gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God always(Acts 10:1-2):
He wanted God, yet he was unsaved.
According to you, he wasn't a sinner.

TaylorOtwell said:
I agree. He was adding to the lot from his very birth! "I was brought forth in iniquity..."

David was so emotional, he wasn't trying to be doctrinal.
Stop using that as Doctrine.
He was adding to the lot from when he commited adultry.

Tell me how we are culpable for sin if sin is unavoidable, inevitable, and we must sin by necessity of our nature?

Okay, but their are many people who actually do want God.

The Word of God speaks clearly: "There is none that understandeth, [b]there is none that seeketh after God[/b]." -Romans 3:11

The Word also says, "And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart." -Jeremiah 29:13

How do we reconcile these seemingly incompatible bible verses. An atheist would look at this and say something to the effect, "your scriptures contradict themselves, this is proof that your God is fake." But we know that there must be a way to reconcile these scriptures in light of what we know of the Father.

I believe that Paul does show how these seemingly contradictory acts can be brought together in his sermon to the Athenians in Acts 17:27, "[b]God did this so that men would seek him[/b] and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us."

God acted first! Man does not by his nature seek after God, that much is made clear in the scriptures... the Lord has to work in the heart of a man to prompt him to seek Him. In fact the verse before, in Acts 17:26 spells out how God ordains our circumstances to prompt us to seek after him!

Understanding God's sovereignty only makes his love for us all that more precious. He was the one who stepped towards us, even when we were running away from him and headlong into our own ruin. "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." -Romans 5:8

iansmith said:
The Word of God speaks clearly: "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." -Romans 3:11

In other words, Both [b]groups[/b] of the Jews and Greeks are all under sin [b]by proof of the law[/b].

Both [b]groups[/b] of the Jews and Greeks do not seeketh after God.

Logic wrote:
No, mankind is naturally inclined towards what they want.

Yes we are inclined to what we want because are self-minded.

In God's Kingdom:- Jesus is Lord
In Satan's Kingdom:- Self is Lord.

The essence of sin is ‘selfishness’ inclined towards want we want or living independently of God (Isa 53:6 2 Cor 5:15).

Logic wrote:
The curse of Adam's original sin is that we all physically die because we are cut off from the Tree of Life. Nothing more.

That's complete nonsense, so you are saying that we are not cut of from God only the tree of life, so that means our heart would be pure and aware of God when we are born.

Matthew 5:8 Jesus said, Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

Our fruit, weather sin or righteousness comes from what choose to do of our own volition, being influenced by what we love or what we put our affections on.

So if we are born with a clean Heart and can see God and are fully are aware of his majesty and Holiness we would then pour our love on him just because of who he is then we would naturally chose the right thing to do.....

The truth is we are not aware of God, we are born lost, blind, with no knowledge of God, with a heart that's wicked and sets it's affections on what it wants.

Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it.

Matthew 15:19-20, Jesus said: out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man.

The heart is the problem. Your heart is evil, mean, wicked, and nasty. It is defiled. It is corrupt. It is contaminated.

We are born inclined towards we want.

Did you actually read what I posted? David was so emotional, he wasn't trying to be doctrinal. Stop using that as Doctrine. He was adding to the lot from when he commited adultry. Tell me how we are culpable for sin if sin is unavoidable, inevitable, and we must sin by necessity of our nature?

Logic,

You again demonstrate your failure reckon with the Scripture. It is simply an innovation you bring to the text that he "wasn't trying to be doctrinal".

Paul states that all Scripture is profitable for "doctrine". David says he was "brought forth in iniquity". He needed a Savior from birth!

Okay, but their are many people who actually do want God. There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band. A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, who gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God always(Acts 10:1-2): He wanted God, yet he was unsaved. According to you, he wasn't a sinner.

God begins drawing people to Himself before they even hear the Gospel.

Logic,

Scripture does not support a sin nature, Show me one verse.

Someone already did in Psalm 51:5: "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me." You can not say that you can't get a doctrine from this because 2 Timothy 3:16 says that "ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for DOCTRINE, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness."
So ALL Scripture can be used for doctrine.

Fact is, if we truly had a so called "sin nature" we would have an excuse before God for our sin.

I actually find Isaiah 7:16 to prove sin nature. because it says: "For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good," It's sounds like the child doesn't know to refuse EVIL. So he is actually choosing the evil rather than the good because he can't choose the good without Christ.

To say that we are born with a "sin nature", you must be assuming that an infant wants to sin.
However, as an infant, one does not understand sin and therefore cannot want to sin.
To say that we are born with a "sin nature", you must be assuming that an infant already understands the concept of sin and/or is accountable for its own moral actions.

Just because you don't understand that something is a sin doesn't mean you can't want to sin. Example: say someone doesn't know that having sex out side of marriage is a sin. But they WANT to have sex before marriage. They are by definition wanting to sin, even if they don't know it's a sin. GOD doesn't forget that it's a sin. So if the person does have sex outside of marriage, but doesn't understand that it is a sin, is he then sinning? I would say yes, because sooner or later he will feel guilty even if he doesn't know it was a sin.

If there is no sin nature how do you reconcile Romans 8?
For example Romans 8:12-14 "Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God."
If there is no sin nature why did Paul always talk about us warring against the sin nature (or flesh)? Why did he tell us to put off the old nature and put on the new if there wasn't/isn't a "old nature" to put off?
How do you explain our bent or leaning towards sin if there is no sin nature? If we are born morally neutral then shouldn't it be just as easy to choose good as it is evil? But it is easier to choose to do evil than good if God hasn't regenerated your heart. So how do we account for that?

In Christ,
Veronica

[b]Yes![/b] Born in sin with sin nature, total depravity, orginal sin, ... Check out what the puritans had to say about it along with the accompanying scripture references in the:

[b]Westminster Confession of Faith
Chapter VI[/b]
[b]Of the Fall of Man, of Sin, and the Punishment thereof[/b]

I. Our first parents, being seduced by the subtilty and temptations of Satan, sinned, in eating the forbidden fruit.[1] This their sin, God was pleased, according to His wise and holy counsel, to permit, having purposed to order it to His own glory.[2]

II. By this sin they fell from their original righteousness and communion, with God,[3] and so became dead in sin,[4] and wholly defiled in all the parts and faculties of soul and body.[5]

III. They being the root of all mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed;[6] and the same death in sin, and corrupted nature, conveyed to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation.[7]

IV. From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good,[8] and wholly inclined to all evil,[9] do proceed all actual transgressions.[10]

V. This corruption of nature, during this life, does remain in those that are regenerated;[11] and although it be, through Christ, pardoned, and mortified; yet both itself, and all the motions thereof, are truly and properly sin.[12]

VI. Every sin, both original and actual, being a transgression of the righteous law of God, and contrary thereunto,[13] does in its own nature, bring guilt upon the sinner,[14] whereby he is bound over to the wrath of God,[15] and curse of the law,[16] and so made subject to death,[17] with all miseries spiritual,[18] temporal,[19] and eternal.[20]

[b]SCRIPTURE PROOFS:[/b]
[1] GEN 3:13 And the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat. 2CO 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

[2] ROM 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

[3] GEN 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. 7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. 8 And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden. ECC 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions. ROM 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.

[4] GEN 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. EPH 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins.

[5] TIT 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. GEN 6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. JER 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? ROM 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15 Their feet are swift to shed blood: 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways: 17 And the way of peace have they not known: 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

[6] GEN 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. 2:16 AND THE LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. ACT 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation. ROM 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned. 15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. 1CO 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

[7] PSA 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. GEN 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth. JOB 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one. 15:14 What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?

[8] ROM 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. ROM 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. ROM 7:18 For I know that in me(that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. COL 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled.

[9] GEN 6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 8:21 And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done. ROM 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

[10] JAM 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. EPH 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. MAT 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies.

[11] 1JO 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. ROM 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me(that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. JAM 3:2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body. PRO 20:9 Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin? ECC 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

[12]ROM 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. 7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. GAL 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

[13] 1JO 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

[14] ROM 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another. ROM 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin. 19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

[15] EPH 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

[16] GAL 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

[17] ROM 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

[18] EPH 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart.

[19] ROM 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope. LAM 3:39 Wherefore doth a living man complain, a man for the punishment of his sins?

[20] MAT 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. 2TH 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power.

[url=http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/]http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/[/url]

Not dispositive, but there is a reason Jesus was born of a virgin. Adam's seed wasn't involved. HE had no sin nature.

yoadam wrote:
I. Our first parents, being seduced by the subtilty and temptations of Satan, sinned, in eating the forbidden fruit.[1] [b]This their sin, God was pleased[/b], according to His wise and holy counsel, to permit, having purposed to order it to His own glory.[2]

Enough said.

thanks for all the feedback. the original sin camp is definitly making much more sense to me

murrcolr said:
The essence of sin is ‘selfishness’ inclined towards want we want or living independently of God (Isa 53:6 2 Cor 5:15).

Please stop using the fact that we sin as proof of a so called "sin nature".
You can't to this because Adam & Eve sin, but you claim that they didn't have a sin nature.
Lucifer sinned, and He didn't have a sin nature.
Therefore, you can not use the fact that we sin as proofe of sin nature.

Furthermore, stop using the doctrine of sin nature to prove that we have a sin nature.
You must first prove the doctrin of sin nature in order to use the the doctrine.

You must prove this so called "sin nature" by correctly interpreting Scripture and logical reason & common sence.

Logic wrote:
The curse of Adam's original sin is that we all physically die because we are cut off from the Tree of Life. Nothing more.

That's complete nonsense, so you are saying that we are not cut of from God only the tree of life

We are condemed because we chose to sin while knowing it was wrong when we never had to sin in the first place.

so that means our heart would be pure and aware of God when we are born.

It is not sinnful for a newborn to be selfish, for they can't be anything eles.
How do you expect a new born, when he/she is hungery to think, "I will wait untill mommy & daddy have enough sleep for 8 hours, then I will cry to let them know I am hungery."

That is rediculous.
When a new-born is hungery, all it knows is that it is hungery. It can not understand what, how, why, where, when...

Do not think for a second that newborns are wicked sinners.

The only thing we are aware of when we are born is lights, sound, cold, etc...

Later we are aware of hunger, poop, pee, etc...

The explanation becomes clear if we carefully consider the development of a child. As a baby enters the world the natural, inherited appetites are already developed. Appetites for food, comfort, love, safty...etc...
Along with these, the child's natural love of conscious freedom begins to express itself.

These appetites are not bad or wrong in & of themselves, in fact appetite is good unless it's used wrongly &/or not kept in check.
A person's will begins to form the habit of obeying desire; this "desire" is the appetite which deepens & strengthens as time passes. The danger comes when the appetites becomes toward unlawful things to be satisfied. The sin is realized when it is known to be wrong and willfully chosen to be continued in the knowledge of being wrong, thus becoming accountable.

Now, newborns are innocent, this doesn't mean that they are aware of God, for they don't even comprehend the awareness of the outside world around them except for the immediate visinity which may only be the room they are in.

Our fruit, weather sin or righteousness comes from what choose to do of our own volition, being influenced by what we love or what we put our affections on.

So if we are born with a clean Heart and can see God and are fully are aware of his majesty and Holiness we would then pour our love on him just because of who he is then we would naturally chose the right thing to do.

The truth is we are not aware of God,

we are born lost,

we are born blind

we are born with no knowledge of God

we are born with a heart that's wicked

we are born with a heart that sets it's affections on what it wants.

Jer 17:9 supplanting is the heart of a man: frail & un-aidable: who shall comprehend it?

What this means is that the heart influences you to remove yourself from the source of true knowledge so that you may rely on it.
You cannot fix the heart to make it acceptable in this respect, for it is un-aidable.
God created our heart this way so that we must rely on Him and not ourselves.
However, it was not created for the purpose for which some use it. It is frail & weak as the flesh is, and no one can figure it out.

The reason that the heart is deceitful because we are deceiving ourselves when we need outside revelation, but instead, we rely on ourselves for wisdom.
The false heart knowledge and self-reliance seems “oh so right”, however, it is “oh so wrong”.

It is actually the mindset of the flesh, which Romans 8 talks about. It is when you rely on your heart; when we rely on your flesh, that you cannot please God.

Matthew 15:19-20, Jesus said: out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man.
Do not use this a your proof of this so called "sin nature".
God created our heart and it is with the same things that God called creation "good" in the beginning.

Fact is that our heart is still good even today. God calling it "good" only means it to be useful, serving a defined purpose. This is what God meant by calling creation good.

God created our heart as good and it remains good. But it isn't created for the purpose for which some use it.

Therefore, that which comes out of the heart is from what we [b]let come into it[/b].
We fill it ourselves with evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies...

Fact it that we are suposed to guard &/or to keep our heart with all diligence (Proverbs 4:23), for out of it are the issues of life.
Therefore, it is our fault that what proceeds out of it is evil...

Do not blaim God who gave us our good heart for your fault of poluting it.
Do not blaim God for who gave us our good heart that you use it in a way that it was not designed for.

However, it is those thing which we let in our heart which defile us.
You are trying to say that we are defiled by default.

The heart is the problem.

In otherwords.
You are at fault for the condition of your heart, because you were suposed to guard it with all diligence; but you faild and poluted it with evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies.

our heart is evil, mean, wicked, and nasty. It is defiled. It is corrupt. It is contaminated.

We are born inclined towards we want

TaylorOtwell said:
Paul states that all Scripture is profitable for "doctrine". David says he was "brought forth in iniquity". He needed a Savior from birth!

Furthermore, you must believe that the world is flat having four corners (Rev 7:1).

You must believe that God spit water from His nose: Exo 15:8
You must believe that God blew smoke out of his nose: 2Sa 22:9, Job 41:20, Psa 18:8

You must believe that ice came from a womb: Job 38:29
You must believe that frost is made by being born: Job 38:29

You must believe that the Sun & Moon revolves around the Earth: Joshua 10:12-13, Psalms 19:4-6, Ecclesiastes 1:5.

Why don't you use these verses the same way you are using Psalm 51:5?

I have seen this discussion of whether one is born with a sin nature, or not born with a sin nature go back and forth many times. I am not sure the Bible ever really defines "sin nature", and I am not so sure everyone discussing it, including myself, could do a very good job of defining it. There is one scripture that says we were "by nature" the children of wrath, and perhaps that is where the term arises, but the contextual use of the term "nature" here is not the same as saying I possess a sin nature. What I am sure of are a few things that scripture is very clear on.

At one time our spirits were alive to God, or another way to put it would be that our spirits were in right relationship to God. Of course I am talking about the spirits of Adam and Eve before the fall. Adam's sin caused us all to be born in a "dead" state spiritually from that time until present. Not dead as having no spirit or having a spirit that was not functioning, but our spirits were dead to God. We were born into sin. We were by nature the children of wrath. We were alienated from the eternal life that is only found in being alive to God, in right relationship with Him. We can read Ephesians chapter 2 and realize this very clearly. Jesus uses the term "born again" to describe what happens at salvation and makes it clear to Nicodemus in John 3 that it is our spirits that must be born again, that must be made alive unto God. I was not in need of salvation through any choice of my own. It was not my individual acts of sin committed during my own lifetime that caused me to be a lost man in need of a savior. I was in need of salvation because I was the seed of Adam. Romans 5 is very clear about this.

If what I have described is what we define as "sin nature", then I would say yes, we are born with a sin nature. But if our definitions are not the same, and there is something different meant by the term, then my answer would necessarily change based on the definition of the term. I guess I don't usually use this terminology. I just stick to what scripture plainly says and say the same thing. The world by and large doesn't understand terms like "sin nature" and the church does not seem to agree on the definition. So on the one hand the language is not understood and on the other we have differing and often conflicting dialects.

Anway Mitydisciple. Hope that response helps

Travis

Veronica226said:

Fact is, if we truly had a so called "sin nature" we would have an excuse before God for our sin.

Not true. While we cannot truly account for our sin nature, we still have to account for our sinS. Sin nature (aka the flesh) is just that: a nature.

The flesh will give pleasure because of the senses. The flesh is amoral; it takes pleasure in whatever & however, good or bad, morally or immorally for it has no mind to discern.

The flesh was created week from the beginning, in the Garden. It was never meant to be used as strength for resisting sin. It is one of the very reasons that Adam fell, lust of the flesh (1John 2:16)...

This is unchangeable, it will remain the same even after we are saved; the flesh needs to be done away with, and that will happen in the resurrection.

I actually find Isaiah 7:16 to prove sin nature. because it says: "For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good," It's sounds like the child doesn't know to refuse EVIL. So he is actually choosing the evil rather than the good because he can't choose the good without Christ.

However, we are only accoutable for that which we have the ability for.
Since the does not [b]know[/b] to refuse evil, and choose good, he is not accountable for choosing either.

Just because you don't understand that something is a sin doesn't mean you can't want to sin. Example: say someone doesn't know that having sex out side of marriage is a sin. But they WANT to have sex before marriage. They are by definition wanting to sin, even if they don't know it's a sin.

The contrast to this verse is:
or as many as have [b]not[/b] sinned without law shall also be judged without law as innocent: and as many as have [b]not[/b] sinned in the law shall be judged by the law as innocent.

If there is no sin nature how do you reconcile Romans 8?
For example Romans 8:12-14

See my explaination of the flash & it will make sence.

Here is a contextual understanding.
Rom 7:23 The “law of sin” in this verse is the demands of our own fleshly desires & affections against known law that bring us in opposition to God which separates us from Him.
The “law of sin” includes the inability of the flesh to deny its own fleshly desires apart from the Spirit & faith in HIM.
Remember this, for it is important to remember!

This concludes that which is in our “members” (v.23) are the unlawful affections &/or desires which brings about spiritual death.

2 Corinthians 5:16-21 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

FLESH;
Strong's Greek Dictionary
4561. sarx
Search for G4561 in KJVSL
sarx sarx sarx
probably from the base of 4563; flesh (as stripped of the skin), i.e. (strictly) the meat of an animal (as food), or (by extension) the body (as opposed to the soul (or spirit), or as the symbol of what is external, or as the means of kindred), or (by implication) human nature (with its frailties (physically or morally) and passions), or (specially), a human being (as such):--carnal(-ly, + -ly minded), flesh(-ly).

There is only one place our flesh/nature is changed, that is in Christ. Lest His sacrifice is meaningless.

Galatians 6:11-18 Ye see how large a letter I have written unto you with mine own hand. As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ. For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh. But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. From henceforth let no man trouble me: for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus. Brethren, the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Amen. Unto the Galatians written from Rome.

We cannot glory in our flesh/nature, only in Christ can we glory. With the Law our without the Law, our old nature is still our old man that needs to be crucified with Christ and reborn anew, with a new nature and quickened flesh to contain this new nature in Christ.

Galatians 2:17-21 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Our flesh/nature must be changed, or we will never see the Kingdom of God. We have a new and living Spirit, that is Christ Jesus and it is perfect. Our nature/flesh is being changed from line upon line and precept upon precept. This comes by the Work of the Holy Spirit our teacher in our soul/mind. This work will be completed on resurrection day as Jeff has stated. Our Spirit is changed, by the Christ in us. Our Flesh nature is being changed by our faith through the Holy Spirit teacher of Christ and His Faith which now lives in us, in Mind/soul, Spirit and will be in body.

"delivered, doth deliver, will yet deliver"

2Co 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us;
2Co 4:11 For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

This is our new life, delivered from the old man nature, which was in our body, soul and spirit, Satan's nature, changed to the new Man nature, which is Christ in you the Hope of Glory.

Colossians 1:20-29 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

In Christ: Phillip

Logic,

It seems that an explanation of what the flesh really is needs to be given. The flesh is our body, it is a tool, if you will. What matters is how we choose to use our flesh & what we choose to put or affections (desires) on.

So the "flesh" is our physical body? Like, muscles, organs, etc.?

The flesh was created weak from the beginning, in the Garden.

Galatians 5:24 says, "And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." So... according to you the flesh is our actual physical body. So if I take this verse with your definition in view then I need to go ahead and nail myself to a cross? I need to actually physically DIE if I want to be true to Christ? Hmmmmm.......
Wouldn't this be suicide? Which would in essence be murder, and that's never condoned in the Bible, then I would conclude that "the flesh" as referred to in the N.T. is not physical, but spiritual.

In Christ,
Veronica

Veronica226 asked:

It seems that an explanation of what the flesh really is needs to be given. The flesh is our body, it is a tool, if you will. What matters is how we choose to use our flesh & what we choose to put or affections (desires) on.

So the "flesh" is our physical body? Like, muscles, organs, etc.?

The flesh was created weak from the beginning, in the Garden.

How can that be if when God created man He said it was "good?" How can it be "weak" and "good" at the same time?

You see, the word “good” that God called His creation does not mean “perfect” or “incorruptible”, but “suitable, pleasant, agreeable”.

So if I take this verse with your definition in view then I need to go ahead and nail myself to a cross?

Col 3:5[b] Mortify therefore your members[/b] which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.
Rom 8:13 For if you live after the flesh, you shall die: but [b]if you through the Spirit do put to death the deeds of the body[/b], you shall live.

If you notice that Galatians 5:24 says rucified the flesh [b]with the affections and lusts[/b].
These efections would be the unlawful affections and lusts, because the good ones are not wrong to keep alive.

What it means to rucified the flesh is to make it as though it were dead to have no control over you.

AS said much better than I ever could in presenting this justification to sin by one man's offence, to condemnation to all men in Adam. Unto justification to righteousness and life eternal to all by One Man Jesus Christ.

Gaebelein's Annoted Bible
Romans 5:12

"So then as it was by one offence towards all men to condemnation, so by one righteousness towards all men to justification of life." This blessed contrast between Adam and Christ is made again in verse 19. "For as indeed by the disobedience of the one man (Adam) the many have been constituted sinners, so also by the obedience of the one the many shall be constituted righteous." Here it is the contrast between Adam's disobedience and Christ's obedience. And the obedience of Christ which constitutes all who believe on Him righteous, is not His obedient life, but His obedience in the death of the cross. "But law came in in order that the offence might abound; but where sin abounded grace overabounded, in order that, even as sin has reigned in the power of death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Here for the first time a reason is given why God gave the law. The Epistle to the Galatians will bring the subject of Law and Grace more fully to our attention. Law came in that the offence might abound; it has constituted man a transgressor and in this sense the offence abounds. But grace overabounds. It deals with the transgressions and reigns through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Wonderful and preciously deep contrast! In Adam sin. condemnation and death. In Christ righteousness, justification and eternal life; yea much more, eternal glory. In Adam we have his constitution; in Christ we possess through grace His life and glory.

Gaebelein's Annoted Bible
Romans 6:1

CHAPTER 6

1. Dead with Christ to Sin. 1-7.
2. Risen with Christ and Alive to God. 8-11.
3. Sin shall Not Have Dominion. 12-14.
4. Servants to Righteousness. 15-23.
Verses 1-7.--We have learned from the previous chapter that the justified believer is in Christ and fully identified with Him. God sees the believer in the Lord Jesus Christ, no longer in Adam, but in Christ, the head of a new creation. "So if any one be in Christ, it is a new creation the old things have passed away, behold all things have become new" (2Co 5:17). Judicially the believer therefore is dead to sin, the old man was crucified, put completely to death in the death Of Christ, and the believer is alive to God in Him. But this wonderful part of the Gospel must become a reality in the life and experience of the believer. God beholds us as dead to sin in Christ and alive in Himself, this must be lived out. This is the solemn responsibility of the justified believer. And we are not to do this in our own strength, but in the power of the indwelling Spirit, who is also given to the believer. All this is unfolded in this chapter.

In Adam all sin, In Christ all are made alive unto God.

In Christ: Phillip

Christinyou mis-quoted the Bible saying:
In Adam all sin, In Christ all are made alive unto God.

This verse is talking about physical life and death as the verse before is a physical resurrection of the dead.
This verse does not mean that we have a so called “sin nature” given by Adam, but that we still have this corruptible (decaying), dying flesh which cannot inherit the Kingdom of God (1Corinth 15:50).

Being “in Adam” only means that we have this weak, dying flesh. The following verses will prove this fact.
And remember that all are dying because we are cut off from the Tree of Life, not because of our own sin &/or guilt.

So, what it really means to be “in Adam” is that we are still in this corruptible flesh and not changed as yet with a new, incorruptible body which can inherit the Kingdome of God.

Now, being “in Christ” only means those who are “in faith”, and they shall all be made alive in the end.

Therefore, we should know that as we are "in Christ" but still alive in this corruptible (decaying) & dying flesh, we remain "in Adam", until we are made alive or immortal at the resurrection.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, even as through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin death, and thus death passed through into all mankind, on all whom had sinned.
[b]In other words:[/b]
The same way sin entered the world by one man & he died by way of that sin; it is in this way that death passed to all mankind, on all whom had sinned.

It isn't that sin came apon all man, but only death. The death came because Adam was cut off from the Tree of Life and eventually died because of his sin. Now that we are also cut off from the Tree of Life, we also die because of Adam's sin.

Physical death is not because we sin, but that we have no access to the Tree of Life.
We only spiritually doe because of our own personal sin at the age of accountability.

If you want to take it that the death was also spiritual, then: as through one man sin entered the world, and through sin, spiritual death death; and the same way (through our own sin) spiritual death passed to all mankind on all whom had sinned.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

No death without sin, no sin without death. "all have sinned"

In Christ: Phillip

Christinyou said:
No death without sin

The death which entered by sin is the physical death from not eating of thr Tree of Life & spiritual death by one's own sin at the age of accountability.

Quote:

""Miscariages, newborns, todlers die with out sin.
Animals doe without sin.""

Yet they all die.

Where is this in scripture?

Where do animals have a spirit?

Adam failed and so all God's creation in Adam failed. That is why Christ died for the "sin" of the whole world. That is why Christ is the only answer for sin and reconciliation of Those in Christ Jesus to the Father. We that are alive unto God have partaken of the Tree of Life, who is Christ.

We cannot take the control of God's own creation out of His hands and put it in the control of man. This is where we differ and this is getting to close to what our learned moderators ask us to not explore in our consideration and praying before our posts. No building up of the Body of Christ.

In Christ: Phillip

Can you read this and tell me what you think? Very relevant to your Question

No one is guilty for what Adam did; sin is not heretitary.
Sin is not inevitable, we don't have to sin.
Since God commanded it, He knows we can do it.
Babies do not sin. We are not born sinners; we become a sinner once we start sinneing.

This dreadful doctrine of original sin is rediculous!

Miscariages, newborns, todlers die with out sin.

I have a niece who is 1 year and 8 months old. I was babysitting her and her older brother the other day. She was playing with a toy and her brother walked up and took it from her. She got so angry that she stood up screamed mine with such conviction that her brother stood there for a moment stunned. Then with out any warning she full force ran directly into her brother and knocked him down. I don't understand how anyone can not call that sin. I love my niece but she was angry and she acted on that anger to attack her brother. I understand at her young age she does not realize what she did was sin(that has to be explained and taught to her) but she still acted on anger. She was angry! Now you want to tell me that its not sin because she is a toddler but if she did the same thing at the age of 12 or 13 it would be sin? How exactly does that work?

in Him
Ellie

wind_blow said:
She was playing with a toy and her brother walked up and took it from her. She got so angry that she stood up screamed mine with such conviction that her brother stood there for a moment stunned. Then with out any warning she full force ran directly into her brother and knocked him down. I don't understand how anyone can not call that sin.

The fact that children do things that seem as sin does not prove that they have a sin nature. Otherwise that fect that Adam & Eve & Lucifer sinned proves that they had sin natures in order for them to sin.

I don't understand how anyone can not call that sin.

I love my niece but she was angry and she acted on that anger to attack her brother. Now you want to tell me that its not sin because she is a toddler but if she did the same thing at the age of 12 or 13 it would be sin? How exactly does that work?

These fully developed appetites are not bad or wrong in & of themselves, in fact appetite is good unless it's used wrongly &/or not kept in check. An infant begins to form the habit of obeying desire, fulfilling their appetites; the appetite deepens & strengthens as time passes. The danger comes when the appetites become toward unlawful things to be satisfied. [b]The sin is realized when it is known to be wrong and willfully chosen to be continued in the knowledge of being wrong, thus becoming accountable.

Finally, the moment of true moral responsibility arrives at the age of accountability[/b]; the child is now old enough to truly understand wrong (Isaiah 7:16, Deut 1:39). This will probably be earlier in a Christian home than in a non-Christian one.

If Adam, in the maturity of his reason, with full consciousness of the morality of his actions could give in to such temptation, it is still possible that a child will not because sin is always a choice. However, [b]the moment that child (being mature enough to understand) chooses selfishly (in the knowledg of being wrong), that is when he truly sins it sins[/b]. From this point on (and NOT before) God holds the child responsible for its own actions and destiny.

Sorry Logic
If I follow your line of thinking then you are saying my niece could be raised to always choose to do what is right and good and therefore would never have need of Jesus as her Savior. That goes against the Word. No person can choose to live free from sin apart from Christ.

ellie

wind_blows said:
If I follow your line of thinking then you are saying my niece could be raised to always choose to do what is right and good and therefore would never have need of Jesus as her Savior.

That goes against the Word.

No person can choose to live free from sin apart from Christ.

God would Love for a person to not need Jesus as Savior, but one MUST have Him as Lord!

Logic
I honestly disagree with you and just about everything you have said. I have tried to see your point of view over the many different threads to no avail the only conclusion that I come to have is that it really profits us nothing to carry on this discussion any further. In the end you will say I am wrong and I will say you are wrong. I fully understand why the moderators discourage this kind of endless debating, it really does nothing to further Christs Kingdom or help share truth with the lost. Valuable lesson learned:)

in Him
Ellie

I honestly disagree with you and just about everything you have said.

Quote:

""Yes, amen! Wouldn't that be glorious for God? Just think how that would please Him; some one who has never chose to sin against him?""

If that would please God, why before Adam was created then Eve, were all that are God's be chosen in Christ before before the foundation of the world? Christ is all and in all that the Father has given Him, even before the foundation of the world. God already had the sin nature taken care of before Adam, with free will chose to sin and sin came upon the whole world. Christ in you the hope of Glory and none else can compare, even a person who did not sin, which is impossible.

All have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God.

Ephesians 1:1-23 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Again Quote:

How?
""If it is imposible for a person to choose to live free from sin with Jesus as Lord, then how is our condemnation just?""

Ro 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Ro 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

God's condemnation is always just, as is Christ in you the hope of glory.

He can make me any way He pleases, condemned or made righteousness by another Person Jesus Christ in me, this is what pleases God, "Christ in you the hope of Glory". By His working not mine.

In Christ: Phillip

Sorry Logic If I follow your line of thinking then you are saying my niece could be raised to always choose to do what is right and good and therefore would never have need of Jesus as her Savior. That goes against the Word. No person can choose to live free from sin apart from Christ. ellie

Your right Ellie - when you really look at all the arguments, discussion and Scripture with an open mind and heart for the truth the choice is pretty obvious - the problem is sometimes we get so consumed with our pet doctrines we loose the ability to see clearly - I know this has happened to me before too.

God bless,

Patrick
www.jonahproject.com

scripture plainly states none are blameless. If any person is blameless before God, they must have Christ in them.

Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Paul, in his excellency in the Jewish religious regime of the Law, says even in all his excellent workings, he was nothing and counted even all his excellencies of his religious life nothing, that he might obtain Christ.

Php 3:4 ¶ Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
Php 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
Php 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
Php 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Php 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

Paul knew that he had no good in him, calling himself the chiefest of sinners, with only one way of overcoming his old man nature and that was in Christ.

Paul says he is carnal, unregenerate, and sin dwells in him. How can you miss that we are sold under sin and no good thing dwells in us. This is our sin nature and Paul says there is only one way out.

Romans 7:14-25 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Commentary
Romans 7:25
This whole chapter was of essential service to the Reformers in their contendings with the Church of Rome. When the divines of that corrupt church, in a Pelagian spirit, denied that the sinful principle in our fallen nature, which they called "Concupiscence," and which is commonly called "Original Sin," had the nature of sin at all, they were triumphantly answered from this chapter, where--both in the first section of it, which speaks of it in the unregenerate, and in the second, which treats of its presence and actings in believers--it is explicitly, emphatically, and repeatedly called "sin." As such, they held it to be damnable. (See the Confessions both of the Lutheran and Reformed churches). In the following century, the orthodox in Holland had the same controversy to wage with "the Remonstrants" (the followers of Arminius), and they waged it on the field of this chapter. (2) Here we see that Inability is consistent with Accountability. (See Ro 7:18; Ga 5:17). "As the Scriptures constantly recognize the truth of these two things, so are they constantly united in Christian experience. Everyone feels that he cannot do the things that he would, yet is sensible that he is guilty for not doing them. Let any man test his power by the requisition to love God perfectly at all times. Alas! how entire our inability! Yet how deep our self-loathing and self-condemnation!" [HODGE]. (3) If the first sight of the Cross by the eye of faith kindles feelings never to be forgotten, and in one sense never to be repeated--like the first view of an enchanting landscape--the experimental discovery, in the latter stages of the Christian life, of its power to beat down and mortify inveterate corruption, to cleanse and heal from long-continued backslidings and frightful inconsistencies, and so to triumph over all that threatens to destroy those for whom Christ died, as to bring them safe over the tempestuous seas of this life into the haven of eternal rest--is attended with yet more heart--affecting wonder draws forth deeper thankfulness, and issues in more exalted adoration of Him whose work Salvation is from first to last (Ro 7:24-25). (4) It is sad when such topics as these are handled as mere questions of biblical interpretation or systematic theology. Our great apostle could not treat of them apart from personal experience, of which the facts of his own life and the feelings of his own soul furnished him with illustrations as lively as they were apposite. When one is unable to go far into the investigation of indwelling sin, without breaking out into an, "O wretched man that I am!" and cannot enter on the way of relief without exclaiming "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord," he will find his meditations rich in fruit to his own soul, and may expect, through Him who presides in all such matters, to kindle in his readers or hearers the like blessed emotions (Ro 7:24-25). So be it even now, O Lord!

In Christ: Phillip

Quote:

""That is a lie. The scripture "plainly states" that some were blameless. The rational way to reconcile these things is to expect that statements about individuals are as specific and literal as they sound while statements about groups may be expected to contain exceptions without undermining the primary message of the assertion. To twist the statements about individuals in order to disallow exceptions in statements about groups is the wrong way to reconcile such passages.""

Ro 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Who is blameless to this topic?

Quote:

""His "old man nature"? The "old man" represents "the former conversation" or way of living, it does not represent the "former nature". That's just reading worldly doctrines into the scripture.""

There must be new quickened containers for the new nature of Christ in you, the old container will be distroyed to contain our new birth, Christ in you the Hope of Glory. Completely new creatures in Christ, a new race of Christ Ones.

Lu 5:37 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.
Lu 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born again?
.
Ro 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Eph 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
Col 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

This is a regenerate man, "New Man". This is not the unregenerate "Old Man". Two natures, A new creation. This is not a 49 Ford, pimped ride. This is a brand new on going new creation a perpetually new Ford. This rebirth is the freshness and ongoing salvation of the New Creature in Christ Jesus. Born Again unto new life in Christ.

If this is not a complete new creature in Christ and Him now living my life in me then I see no salvation in Christ our Christ in me, Which is my only hope of Glory.

New life and new nature unto justification by the Christ that is in me.

Galatians 2:16-21 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Glory and the final mystery that fulfills the Word of God in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

This is our perfection, new nature; Christ.

The rest later;

In Christ: Phillip

hi,Jesus said why do you call me good for there is none good.simple ...so that is why i do not care what you say jimp

jimp said:
hi, Jesus said why do you call me good for there is none good. simple ...so that is why i do not care what you say

2 Samuel 18:27 And the watchman said, I think the running of the first one is like the running of Ahimaaz the son of Zadok. And the king said, [b]He is a good man[/b], and comes with good tidings.

Psalms 37:23 The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and he delights in his way. & Psalms 112:5

Proverbs 14:14 a good man shall be satisfied from above himself.

Mattew 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart brings forth good things:

Luke 23:50 And, behold, there was a man named [b]Joseph[/b], a member of the council and he [b]was a good man[/b], and just:

Acts 11:24 For [b]he[/b] (Barnabas) [b]was a good man[/b], and full of the Holy Spirit and of faith: and many people were added unto the Lord.

Romans 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet perhaps for a good man some would even dare to die.

Alive to God wrote:

Therefore, the call to Repent, to Be Baptised, 'to Believe', seem to be offered to us by God as ACTIONS which will change our state of 'being'. Now, that is not complicated. A person who lies, is called a liar. It's a simple translation we make all the time about all kinds of compliance in our everyday world. Similarly, an unbeliever who begins to believe, is instantly translated from being a child of unbelief (or active disobedience), to being a child of faith, a child of God, a son of God. Heb 2:10. This is a change in spiritual nature, which will have implications rolling out of every part of the person's life, just as 'sin' does. Now see Rom 6:2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7.

Thanks so much for your post. I love the truth and simplistic way you shared this here with us. I have been studying on sin and the deceitfulness of it. The more I read the Word the more clearly I see and understand that there is no way anyone can choose to not sin. Man will always choose those things which are pleasing to "self". I give thanks though because of Christ Jesus we are given a way. Now that we are new creations in Christ Jesus our very nature is changed, we die to that old man "self" and we are risen in Him. As you said we were once children of unbelief but now are children of faith!

In Him
Ellie

hi, please do not call Jesus a liar again , He said that no man is good because good is a relative term...since He had no sin and had seen the goodness of the Father His idea of good was and is much higher then yours and mine and other human writers in the bible who are touched by sin and a sinful nature...a homeless man will call a cardboard box under a overhang good shelter but i dont think you would.jimp

jimp said:
hi, please do not call Jesus a liar again , He said that no man is good because good is a relative term...since He had no sin and had seen the goodness of the Father His idea of good was and is much higher then yours and mine and other human writers in the bible who are touched by sin and a sinful nature...a homeless man will call a cardboard box under a overhang good shelter but i dont think you would.

If there are other good man in the Bible as I shown, Jesus was not making a doctrinal statement.

And, please, do not dis the writes of the Scripture; they claim that there was good men, so that means that there are good men.

Furthermore, your use of the term "sinful nature" has not been established, therfore your point is moot. do not use the thing in question to prove your argument.

hi,Gods ways and thoughts are higher and not simplistic and single in there point of reference.someone who has not seen the best will always call something better than what they have seen good and they;in there hearts would be correct.the good is always the enemy of the best.when john saw Jesus whom he knew and loved personnally shrowded in His holiness ...he fell at His feet as if dead.Jesus is the language of the Father...the alpha beta and omega and the word made flesh and the ultimate authority for He is truth and love and the fulness of the Godhead bodily. if you do not esteem His words and word as directly coming out of the Father heart you would be at best naive... He said that none are good...its over..jimp

Logic,

I fully recognize that Scripture sometimes calls men good or godly. But, who made them good? According to Corinthians, who makes some men to differ from others?

jimp said:
He said that none are good...its over.

Nice.

TaylorOtwell
I fully recognize that Scripture calls men good. But, who made them good?

According to Corinthians, who makes some men to differ from others?

"For who makes you differ from another? And [b]what do you have that you did not receive?[/b] Now if you did indeed receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?" (1 Corinthians 4:7)

This seems to say that all things we have we receive from the Lord.

Apparently, your answer to the bolded part seems to be goodness and virtue. Is that correct?

[b]9And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous,[/b] and despised others:

10Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

11The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

12I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

13And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. - Luke 18

TaylorOtwell asked:
"For who makes you differ from another? And [b]what do you have that you did not receive[/b]? Now if you did indeed receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?" (1 Corinthians 4:7)

This seems to say that all things we have we receive from the Lord.

Apparently, your answer to the bolded part seems to be goodness and virtue. Is that correct?

God is the One who gives all manknid their talent, spiritual gifts, wealth etc... But God does not give anyone how they act or what their attitude is, or what choices they make or how they will make them, or even what thoughts they choose to own & dwell on.

We are responcible for that part of our life.

If it was God who gave men these, then no one is responcible for being bad, for God would have made them that way by not giving them any goodness.

yoadam said:
9And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

10Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

11The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

12I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

13And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. - Luke 18

Thos men whom the Scriptures call cood were not trusting in themselves that they were righteous.

Logic,

But God does not give anyone how they act or what their attitude is, or what choices they make or how they will make them, or even what thoughts they choose to own & dwell on.

If this is true, why does the Scripture speak of God giving us a new heart? If the heart we have has the capacity to savingly have faith in God, why do we need a new one?

hi, there were 2 trees in the garden of eden of great importance. the tree of the knowlege of good and evil and the tree of life{Jesus}. men have been choosing the religious tree ever since. this tree leads to self righteousness and death and i have seen this for the 45 years i have been clinging to Jesus and His mercy and grace.jimp

Logic wrote, Quote:

""They made themselves good by to their actions, attitudes, choices, thoughts...etc...""

This makes Christ's sacrifice and death meaningless and
un-needed. MAN saving himself, putting Christ to shame.

Just like Israel and the whole human race had Him crucified, He meant nothing to, even His own, those He came to, Israel, and they received Him not. He died for all that are His, those the Father has given Him, He died for me and my sin put those stripes on His back and every nail that was nailed into Him was and is because of me.

Praise God, my Father Chose me in Christ before the foundation of the world, not by my works but by His. I was lost but now I am found.

Absolutely and positively by the Father giving birth to me by His Son who is heavenly. My second birth, born again and the second death has no hold on me.

In Christ: Phillip

TaylorOtwell asked:

But God does not give anyone how they act or what their attitude is, or what choices they make or how they will make them, or even what thoughts they choose to own & dwell on.

If this is true, why does the Scripture speak of God giving us a new heart? If the heart we have has the capacity to savingly have faith in God, why do we need a new one?

I know of an 8 year old girl who was just baptized last week. She always had a soft heart, even towrds God, so God did not need to give her a new one. I pray that she keeps her heart with all diligence.

jimp said:
hi, there were 2 trees in the garden of eden of great importance. the tree of the knowlege of good and evil and the tree of life{Jesus}. men have been choosing the religious tree ever since. this tree leads to self righteousness and death and i have seen this for the 45 years i have been clinging to Jesus and His mercy and grace.

Christinyou said:

They made themselves good by to their actions, attitudes, choices, thoughts...etc..

This makes Christ's sacrifice and death meaningless and un-needed.

This man made Himself good by fearing God & giving alms, however, he still needed to put his faith in/on Christ & what He said & done.

Luke 23:50 And, behold, there was a man named Joseph, a member of the council and he was a good man, and just:

How do you thing that Joseph was a good man?
Joseph made himself good by being just and choosing to do the right things, however, He still needed as saviour.

How do you thing that Barnabas was a good man?
Barnabas was a good man, and full of the Holy Spirit and of faith (Act 11:22-24) He made himself good by obeying Christ; walking in the spirit.

Again, God doesn't make people good, He only makes their goodness acceptable by forgiving their past deeds of doing bad. Therefore, we all must make ourselves good by doing good.
You can also make yourself bad by doing bad.

Double post

Logic,

OK, So, when Jesus talks about needing to be born again or born from above, that is something that we produce?

Jesus refers to Ezekiel 36 in John 3:

[i]Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.[/i] (John 3:5)

[i]Then I will [b]sprinkle clean water on you[/b], and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. [b]I will put My Spirit within you[/b] and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.[/i] (Ezekiel 36:25-27)

Also, Regarding God not making people good, what did God mean when he said [b]he[/b] would [b]cause[/b] the recipients of Ezekiel 36:25-27 to walk in his statutes?

TaylorOtwell asked:
OK, So, when Jesus talks about needing to be born again or born from above, that is something that we produce?

Also, Regarding God not making people good, what did God mean when he said [b]he[/b] would [/b]cause[/b] the recipients of Ezekiel 36:25-27 to walk in his statutes?

Once a person who was convicted of their sins and relises the fact of God's atonement through Jesus' sacrifice, they will be [b]CAUSED[/b] to change. They choose to take on a new view on life, and a new motive for everything that they do. In these new aspects of their life will become actions or works that give a testimony of Christ in them.

Here is the [b]cause[/b]: The atonement is an [b]influence[/b] on one’s heart/soul. The selfless, loving sacrifice on our account is to break the heart of the sinner and [b]cause[/b] him to acknowledge his sin and the judgment of his sin. A revelation of the suffering of Christ should break and subdue ones heart and bring him to complete surrender to God. The atonement should so [b]affect[/b] our hearts that we turn from our disobedience in humble, sincere, and deep repentance, repenting out of a motive of love, remorse, and sincerity (1 John. 4:19).
The Atonement transforms and liberates through reciprocation (synergism), when men choose to obey the gospel of Jesus Christ from the heart because God was loving them all along, from the beginning.

Logic,

Your moral influence theory doesn't make sense in light of various Scriptures:

[i]But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus’ sake. [b]For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.[/b][/i] (2nd Corinthians 4:3-6)

This speaks of God actually shining light into our hearts and giving us the knowledge of the glory of God in Christ. God reveals the truth of the Gospel to the hearts of His people. An appreciation or moral influence of the atonement is primarily a fruit of faith. However, I don't deny that God often uses the moral influence of the atonement in bringing about conversion, but this influence is God bestowed.

[i][b]Of His own will He brought us forth[/b] by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures.[/i] (James 1:18)

TaylorOtwell SAID:
Your moral influence theory doesn't make sense in light of various Scriptures:

But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus’ sake. For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. (2nd Corinthians 4:3-6)

This speaks of God actually shining light into our hearts and giving us the knowledge of the glory of God in Christ.

2nd Corinthians 4:3-6 is in the context of Israel “believing not” (2Corinth 4:4) “so the god of this age has blinded their minds” so they have a “veil upon their hearts” (2Corinth 3:15-16) “nevertheless when one shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away”.

There is no hindrance for them not to turn to the Lord that the veil to be taken away. Jesus is that Light which shines out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts (of us who choose to come to Jesus) to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God.

Therefore, once anyone comes to Jesus, that Light will shine in their hearts to give them light.

God reveals the truth of the Gospel to the hearts of His people. An appreciation or moral influence of the atonement is primarily a fruit of faith. However, I don't deny that God often uses the moral influence of the atonement in bringing about conversion, but this influence is God bestowed.

[b]Of His own will He brought us forth[/b] by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures. (James 1:18)

God’s will in James 1:18 is contrasting to the lust of man James 1:15.

“The word of truth” in James 1:18 is contrasting the “temptation" in James 1:14

God begets us in James 1:18, we beget death in James 1:15.

But God, with the Word of truth, by His own will begat us
Contrast this with:
We are tempted by our delinquent will to beget death.

James 1:14-15 But each one is tempted by his own longings/desires (our delinquent will as opposed to God’s) being drawn away by being seduced with them.
15: Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin: and sin, when it is finished, it [b]begets death[/b].
James 1:18 Of his own will [b]begat[/b] he us with the word of truth.

Therefore, the will of God only means thatis what He wanted. It does not discount our own choice in the matter.

Most will skip this because it’s too long.
But if you want what most of God’s Children do not have available, please, read this. It’s free.

Hello All,

This is real interesting of a topic. I was invited on here to look at something. I gave it a day and the Lord began to speak. There is no quick answer to the direct problem of the topic other than there being the issue of no phraseology of “sin nature” in the Bible.

There is a better way to address this. By asking the question of “How does the Holy Spirit work?” And then we get into the place of whether we are in the context of the life of any Believer or that of an unredeemed sinner. I’ll lay out some ground work then actually answer this question throughout the writing. Ending up with ultimately answering the original question posed.

I seem to come across these kinds of questions all the time. What I find is that usually something very important is overlooked. Now I am not one who claims to KNOW all or anything absurd. I do however have a relationship with God. The purpose of this writing is not to bash any beloved of God but to edify His children. I have limited time to write this but will add Scripture all the way through. Many will not have an attached address.

I will begin with attention to Believers first. According to most of the Church Body, there are five different views of the indwelling of the presence of the sin nature in the life of the believer. The first is Ignorance. Which is, that most of the Church doesn’t know she has a nature that is sinful and an enemy of God. The second, License. Which says that Justification is not an opponent to sin and sinful acts, (there is a difference between ‘The Sin’ and sinful acts. I will have to wait to get there). The third is Denial. Which is where people say that once they are Saved, the sin nature is totally eradicated. The forth is Struggle. Struggle is real interesting. It is because no matter what view one holds, Struggle seems to always be present. Struggle says, “I can defeat the devil and that I wage war against the sin nature by doing all these wonderful works.” This is the category that attempts to Sanctify self by means of the flesh or carnal abilities. This is defined as things like how much bible one reads, how many hours one prays, witnessing, fasting, praise and et cetera. These are known as moral actions. Then there is the fifth and final and correct view, Grace. Grace is from God. It gives place for no human merit. This is the God kind of Salvation from sin. Not sinful acts, but The Sin.

Through Romans, especially in the area of Rom 5:18 - 6:23, we find what’s called the definite article in the Greek. The word I’m referring to is translated in the KJV as ‘sin.’ However, in Young’s Literal Translation, that translation does a better job translating the Greek and keeping with the context. Where is says ‘sin’ there in the YLT it translates ‘sin’ as ‘The Sin.’ Now wait a second... We learn a couple of things; there are grammatical clues. 1.) These are definite articles. 2.) these are nouns, not verbs. 3.) the noun usage is singular -this is the presence thing.

Now, go back to Rom 4:22-24. The word ‘imputed’ (logizomai) equals ‘credited’ or ‘accounted.’ Keeping in mind, Paul is speaking to Believers. As I am for the moment. By Justification, the penalty of The Sin is removed. Through Sanctification, the power/ effects of The Sin is removed [as in, the more self and it’s ways dies at the Cross of Christ, (being what Christ there did for us), the more His Life is manifested in and through us. This is Christianity as contrasted with Saved by works]. And with the coming hope of Glory, being Glorified, we have the total presence of This Sin Bent removed. Remember, it’s all by Faith. That’s how it always has been. Faith is the only thing that pleases God. We have the Down Payment indwelling this earthly tabernacle. But Jesus is building a Mansion compared to this earthly broken tent. Why else would He need to come and Died on the Cross to be our propitiation? Propitiation: meaning atonement. Or my own definition, “turning point.” At that moment, our lives are no longer ours but they are His. As in, hidden in the Secret Place of the Most High which is Christ Jesus. Again, made possible by what He did for us at the Cross. Without a proper view of that Event that took place on the mount called Calvary, the Believer is very limited in Christian growth. So from that point on, the life of the sinner no longer is destined to hell. However, the effects are still there. Like if a poisonous gas tank was opened in a room. And the valve was shut down by the Holy Ghost. The gas is still there in the room until the ‘Holy Spirit Fan’ Sanctifies that out through a ventilation process. Where The Sin caused the valve to be wide open and pump out sinful practices and bents and desires, it no longer continues to do such. Now, By Faith, we are seated in the Heavenly place. In Romans six we learn that we were baptized (submerged) into the Body of Christ on the Cross. And if Jesus died, was buried and is now Resurrected to the Heavenly Throne, next to God His Father, where are we? Yes my dear reader Friend, in Jesus in the Heavenly place. Now, that’s our position. Our condition is still here in earth. That means we still have this ‘The Sin’ but it is rendered inactive upon receiving the Free Gift of Jesus. It’s still there but not active. At the end of Romans five, we learn that the old man is dethroned and the Holy-Divine-Spirit-Nature now resides in the heart and mind of every believer. How is this possible? By this imputed Righteousness we opened with in the beginning of this particular paragraph. When God the Father looks down on us from the throne, He only has eyes of no condemnation. He sees not us and our faults and failures and shortcomings but only His Son Jesus. THAT’S how we are able to go to Heaven. So then there is no need to be in denial of the presence of The Sinful nature. We have a new nature!

Why else would the Lord have to come? If one says he has no sin, he deceives himself and the Truth is not in him. If you are a Beloved of God Believer, since you have believed in the Lord, YOU HAVE SINNED! If you say or think you have not, you just lied and committed another sin. Of coarse, this is not place for License, we talked about that already. The truth is, if God were to strip away every good thing He has ever planted in you, in your core being, you hate God. Just like, if you feel disappointed in yourself after sinning, that is because you still think that you could have done better. To please God or whatever. Often, this is mistaken for conviction. If you still think there you have anything to offer God, you have not arrive yet. Because for the rest of your life, you will try and use that “what you think is good in you” to try and earn God’s Love and approval. One item after another will be proven selfish and sinful by God. If a Beloved Believer thinks he or she can earn God’s Love, he or she will. And will burn themselves out until they quit God. Why? Because their object of Faith is not the Cross of Jesus and what was accomplished there but rather themselves and what they can do. What is this “The Sin?” It is the belief that “I can do better” or “I can provide for myself.” This is to go against God’s Word. Not the Scripture necessarily but what God would speak. Look at Adam. He thought he could get something better than what God has provided. Now subsequently and consequently, we have all manner of sinful acts that are produced from this inherent condition. Why does one sin? Because he or she thinks that they can get something that God is not wanting them to have. This God calls idolatry. Because we want to serve some other thing instead of Trusting in God’s ability to provide.

What is Faith? Faith is not presumption as most think it is. Biblical Faith is Hearing from God and believing He is able to perform what He said He would. Then after this Faith action, resulting works will occur. Now, Abraham believed God and it was accounted (imputed) unto him as Righteousness. He went up to sacrifice his only son. This work proved he believed. The work did not make him Righteous but being a believer, he worked. Get it? So, if you as a Believer are doing works to Sanctify yourselves, you’re in error. As all of us are at some point. So, we being totally bankrupt of being capable of any goodness, we believe God has made Provision through Jesus and will continue to provide based on His Goodness and Love, not based on any of our merit.

Now, back to the before mentioned items. Why they would Jesus need to come if there was nothing in us to make us want to sin? I will kindly and humbly remind that since we were Believers, we sinned. That means there is still something in us that bends our desires towards sinful acts. Behind that stands the culprit. ‘The Sin’ that takes advantage of our will, emotions, desires and mind. This is why God has to give us a new Body in the Coming day. This one is corrupt. Few realize, there is a difference between soul and Spirit. Our soulish realm is the totally corrupted and bankrupt part. God only works by the Spirit. The Spirit working with the life of the Believer (due to properly placed Faith) changes the desires of the Believer and therefore the bodily actions will result in glorifying God’s name. Again, if we attempt this on our own power and will, -that being corrupt- it will manifest in works of unrighteousness. When we trust in ourselves, this is what the Bible refers to as Grieving the Holy Ghost. Once we Grieve Him by not trusting totally and completely in the Cross as the means of our Righteousness and Sanctification, there will be actions of sin. It’s not the beer bottle in and of itself that is sinful. It’s not even the woman you’re seeing that you’re not married to that is sinful. It is that feverish desire to attain something that you think you don’t have. You see my friends, God has already provided everything we will ever need. It’s predicated upon our Faith however. And you should realize by now what I’m going to say- the Cross of Jesus. More specifically, everything Jesus was and had on the Cross, when He died, that’s what is imputed into our account upon believing what God Spoke about being our Righteousness. And freely so! We DO NOT work for this folks!

And if there were no bent in us towards the works of evil(which is placing from From what God provided to self and self’s ability) why would God need to give the Gift of repentance? We don’t even know what to pray for. AT Robertson commentary says, Romans 8:26, 27 is “helpeth” which is sunantilambano, made up on sun “together with” anti “over against” and lambano “to take.” The word speaks of the action of a person coming to another’s aid by taking hold over against that person, of the load he is carrying. WE cannot do this Faith walk on our own. And repenting from individual sins is still attempting to convince yourself and God that you can do better next time. Biblical repentance is simply turning from Faith in self to provide Salvation, Sanctification and Glorification, and placing it upon the Event that Jesus did on Calvary. An innocent man died to be a Sacrifice for us. So we match this by taking up His Life and all He accomplished as our own. This is that Free Gift. Anything other than the Cross is of the flesh and is now become an idolatry against God’s Nature. Thus, The Sin Nature of man.

Zodhiates is helpful when he says: “like a contest in a race” concerning our Faith agony. That is the biggest battle in the Christian life. That is what satan will always attack. He’ll lie and tell you that you can do better for yourself, just take this sin or that sin. That is not the sin nature. But only proves that there exists one. Why was Jesus able to go and eat with sinners and be where whores were and drunks? Not because He Tried Really Hard by gritting His teeth and saying He can do it! But there was not a shred of Sinful desire in Him that the Devil could pull from or latch onto and cause His eyes to look and see what’s over somewhere other than where His Father said to be. This extends to all that Jesus did and said. Again, we, by the Faith of Jesus, have all His Righteousness freely given to us that we do not need to earn our own. We cannot earn our own. Everything we do will result in sin because it comes from sin.

We have been talking about the condition of a Believer a lot. Positionally, when we do things by the Spirit, it is not of selfishness or of a motivation that we did not know was there. We’ll use Romans again to see this through. Almost done... How are you all holding up? Take a deep breath and Praise God for a moment. And when you are ready, read on. You’re all my friends and I love you. I want you to know these things that no man can beguile your Reward.

Remember, this is an issus of How the Holy Spirit works in the Life of a Believer. Or ‘Why’ He would need to, if you will see it that way.

Romans 8 starts, There is therefore now no condemnation (because we were born already dead to God according to many Scriptures) to them which are in Christ Jesus (planted in Him be Faith), who walk not after the flesh(self’s will and understanding of how to live for God and rid self of sin and bend toward doing sins), but after the Spirit(which is the Cross of Christ). For the law of the Spirit One of four spiritual laws that work in the world) of life(the “Zoe” life which is the God kind of Life that begins at Spiritual Re-Birth and continues into Eternity with God). in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death(second most powerful law, the most powerful being the Law of Life in Christ).  For what the law could not do(had no power to change us), in that it was weak through the flesh(due to The Sin), God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh(Provided a sinless, perfect Sacrifice to make atonement), and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh(Put an end to The Sin and consequently, sinful acts):  That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us(Begins in Christ), who walk not after the flesh(our human efforts and abilities), but after the Spirit(God’s Plan for us to live by-the Cross).  For they that are after the flesh(their own way) do mind the things of the flesh(attempt to please God by works of flesh); but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit(What God has already Provided). For to be carnally minded is death(Means that we absolutely cannot provide for ourselves, anything. God is serious when He says this. It is the number one cause of all problems within the Body. The Lord’s children have been fighting over stupid things for years because they do not understand what the Spirit means by these Scriptures).; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace(Peace is not a feeling, it’s something we are given. Life is the Zoe, eternal life with all credit going to God and none on our part).  Because the carnal mind is enmity against God(Until it is forever gone in the time of our Glorification): for it is not subject to the law of God(does not want God or his Ways), neither indeed can be(Cannot be tamed or “fixed” so). So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God(Faith in the Cross of Calvary). But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit(all by faith, never forget that), if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you(Down payment). Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His(The New Spirit, not anymore the old man The Sin nature).

A law is a governing and operating principle. And no matter what you tell yourself, it will operate in your life! In Romans seven, we see the others in operation. It starts in verse four-teen: For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin(no hope of self redemption). For that which I do I allow not(do not want to do): for what I would, that do I not(bent toward sin due to a spiritual law at work); but what I hate, that do I(products of The Sin). If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good(but if you make a law on yourself[“I will not do it again God...] that law YOU made, you will find it does not hold any power to do right). Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin(The Sin) that dwelleth in me(In who? Me and you). For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing(Bankrupt of Righteousness): for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not(Not within self). For the good that I would I do not(have no power to when looking towards self as a Christian to provide for own Sanctification): but the evil which I would not(Because of a renewed mind and new desires), that I do(A reactivated Sinful nature/ reopened tank of poisonous gas). Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin(The Sin) that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me(Law of sin and death we are all born with). For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am(Good confession)! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord(Salvation unto Glorification). So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin(Thus, the need for Jesus to come outside of the framework of humanity without a sinful nature. For if He came from another man, He would have the same broken sinful desires and bents toward evil. That is not my Jesus folks).

So we have the 1.) law of sin and death 2.) law of God(the Word) 3.) law of our mind 4.) law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus. That last one listed is the most powerful. This is why, if you are Born from Above, there is no need to fear when you experience an act of fear. No truly Born Again Little One in Christ wants to sin. But we do so. Hence, why Jesus died on the Cross so that by the Spirit, God makes us Perfect and free of The Sin(by Faith). Then He works on our Soul while in the earth and thus, the body acts accordingly. Preachers of today address the soul items. Our willpower and human ability. However, what did we learn earlier? This is not God’s way. The human way makes way for self-righteousness and pride. Understand the Mind of God.

Now, to get more specifically down to the addressing of how the Holy Spirit works in the life of the Believer. Since God loves us with a Divine Love and His kind of Love in unselfish, we receive freely this: ‘The Law of the Spirit of Life through Jesus and His Finished Work on Calvary.’ This is defined as, “The Spiritual Law established by Christ and what He accomplished at the Cross that enables the Holy Spirit and establishes the legal boundaries by which the Holy Ghost can work in and through the life of any Believer.”

Notice in your own life, if you’re honest, the sinful activities that are there. This took me a while to come to grips with. I came from a Holiness church and it was wonderful for the Light that the pastor had been given. However, there was a constant struggle to maintain sinless perfection. Hypocrisy ran rampant through the building. But I was still surrounded by wonderful brothers and sisters in the Lord. So what was going on? We did not understand the Law of the Spirit. Which is 1.) God works only by the Spirit that is only enabled though the Cross of Christ Jesus. 2.) God only works within those boundaries set up within the Cross of our Lord Jesus. Romans 3:27 and 28 says: Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. The same Cross that got us in, keeps us in. Of coarse the Sin Nature exists. And even in the lives of every Believer. But that relationship has been shut down. Like an old friend. The two people still are alive but there is no relationship. So for us, the old man is gone as the main influence in our lives as Believers. Now if we ignore the Plan God set up, we activate that old man and his dirty works of sinful behavior. Many in the Church do not know why they sin or how to stop it. It is mainly due to those who claim to be spiritual but they are carnal. I must now comment some harsh sentences. There is a serious lack of any kind of discernment in the Body of Christ whatsoever. If you call yourself a follower of Christ and do not heed the warnings God is not pleased with the acceptance of such filth that's being tolerated. I have several acquaintances that have been pulled into that lifestyle of works. This discussion has nothing to do with one's abilities. Where sin reigns, the love of many grows cold - look that verse up too. Now let's examine something. God says, "if you do this, I'll do that." So, knowing what God EXPECTS and you do not obey the Lord, you have become a part of the problem. That makes you guilty. Again, I'm not attacking anyone (this is actually a good conversation to have) I love the brethren with the love God has given me. I have also served in the works category with some wonderful people. Most were not Spiritual Christians. You become a Christian once you place your Faith in what Jesus did, for you personally, on Calvary's Cross. Not just popping up one day, thinking you go to Heaven because you want to. Or faking your Righteousness, which incidentally is the conducting works by the arm of the flesh is. So, being that I love this dear Body and had buddies that died for this thing, it's my duty to uphold the constitutes that have been erected under the Mighty Hand of God that has made this Body Great. If we neglect the responsibilities, we do not deserve the freedoms, do we? The only freedom we truly have is spiritual freedom in Christ Jesus. Rom 6:3 - no, it's not talking about water baptism either. Would you like to be a part of the solution or continue to be a part of the problem now that you are responsible for the information you have been given?

WE do not deserve any of God’s Love. We’re totally unqualified for it. If you know this, then you are almost there to Godly repentance. Knowing that you will never be able to produce anything Good to offer God is where it’s at. Once arrived at this point, God can now take over your life and BE Life through you. Since we were dead in The Sin. He will not work outside of the boundaries of the Cross. Anything else is sinfully flesh. As Jesus is, so are we! What a Free Gift! We as humans to habitual activities. We also go from one extreme to another. One side of Faith is hyper-faith that says, “I can do whatever I want since I don’t have a sin nature/ I believe in Jesus.” The other side of perverted Faith is I must work my way to heaven. Good Luck... ‘No such thing as luck. So if you trust in sleeve length or hair color or what you eat or how long your dress is or if you put sugar in your tea, you are living as a carnal Christian. Yes, you’ll go to Heaven I’m sure. God is bigger than that. But the Holy Spirit does not work because of those things, He works because God has made the Way via the Cross and the accomplished work done there on Calvary. One man said, “Christ is the Source, the Cross is the Means.” There is no shorted way of saying it. What does Galatians 5:16 say? “This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.” It does not say there will be no temptations. Only that we would not fulfill the sinful desires. And that of going away from properly anchored Faith in the Cross of Jesus. It does not refer to works of the flesh as in sinful acts. The sinful acts are a product of The Sin in the person, producing sins plural. Galatians 3:2 and 3 says, “This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? No! ‘Not made perfect by the worldly understanding of how to live for God.

So by the use of the Cross and acceptance of God’s Will, we receive everything that Christ died with that He had when He died on the Cross. His Peace, Joy, Love, Righteousness... we can add until eternity to the list! It’s all ours upon turning from self’s Sin Nature and trusting exclusively in God’s method of Salvation, Sanctification and Glorification.

I hope you have enjoyed this. God really has blessed me with His Presence while doing this. If there is something in here that is questionable, re-read it and make sure you did not mistake my comment for something else. And please, if you have a detestable spirit, do not open your mouth and prove to everyone you do not know what you’re talking about. God has the very ability to change even our thoughts in how we think about things. He’s a wonderful God, Praise Him by placing Faith in the Cross of Christ!

In the Grip of His Grace, Shawn.

Logic,

In light of the previous verses...

And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.” (John 6:65)

It sounds like you are saying the veil is removed after we come to Jesus (and I agree), but how do we come to Jesus?

Ben,

To me, it sounds like you're saying "anyone who comes to Jesus the Father enables to come to Jesus".

"Coming" is synonymous with "believing" in this passage - "And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst." (John 6:35)

Effectively, Jesus says no can believe in Him unless it has been granted to him by the Father. Coming is the same thing as believing, and believing is the same thing as coming, as is seen in John 6:35.

TaylorOtwell asked:
In light of the previous verses...

And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.” (John 6:65)

It sounds like you are saying the veil is removed after we come to Jesus (and I agree), but how do we come to Jesus?

Jesus will draw all men unto him if He be lifted up; and He was, therefore He is drawing [b]ALL[/b] men to Himself. However, some deny & refuse.
The reason that men are condemned is because they are able to come to Him but refuse.
No one would be condemned if they are unable, because the inability would exempt them from the obligation.

Do not say that they would be worthy of condemned even if they are unable, because they are sinners; do not say this because (you say) they are sinners by nessecity of their nature which would actually exempt them from the responcibility of the obligation not to be sinners.

In reality, all mankind have the ability not to be sinners; all mankind have the ability not to sin; all mankind have the ability to come to Christ and repent.
Because, with out the ability, they are not culpable.

If man has no play in their being sinners and no prt in their comming to Christ, they they are not worthy of condemnation.

To me, it sounds like you're (Ben) saying "anyone who comes to Jesus the Father enables to come to Jesus".

What do you think disables anyone?

Logic,

I still don't understand your view of:

He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." (John 6:65)

What is the Father enabling the person to do? Jesus gives the answer: "to come to Jesus".

What does it mean that the Father has to "enable" someone to come to Christ, as this verse says?

------------------

Regarding John 12:

[i]Now there were some Greeks among those who went up to worship at the Feast. They came to Philip, who was from Bethsaida in Galilee, with a request. "Sir," they said, "we would like to see Jesus." Philip went to tell Andrew; Andrew and Philip in turn told Jesus.[/i]

Presumably, they told him instead of bringing them because Jesus had previously said to only go among the lost sheep of Israel. However, after telling him, Jesus talks about drawing "all" men to myself, which, in context, he is saying that when he is lifted up, he will draw both Jews and Gentiles to himself. In other words, salvation will not be limited to one ethnic group.

TaylorOtwell asked:
I still don't understand your view of:

He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." (John 6:65)

What is the Father enabling the person to do? Jesus gives the answer: "to come to Jesus".

What does it mean that the Father has to "enable" someone to come to Christ, as this verse says?

This corresponds with John 6:44 "No man cmay come to me, except the Father who has sent me draw him."
But we already know that the Father is drawing all mankind because Jesus has been lifted up (John 12:32).

Therefore, it is up the the man to respond to the drawing of the Father. If the man refuses to be drawn, he can not come to Jesus by the refusal to do so.

Quote:

""But we already know that the Father is drawing all mankind because Jesus has been lifted up (John 12:32).""

We know this does not mean all mankind of the world. If so then all would come to Christ. This is not so. Only those that the Father has given to the Son. If those that are not given to the Son would not come because of God's drawing, then God's Word would be returning void. If this meant all mankind and it was up to them, and they refuse, then God's Word would also be returning void.

You say, why did God make those that don't receive and are not saved, "why did You make me this way and why do You blame the lost.

All this is mankinds bent. Only God will draw those He predisinated to be in Christ, before the foundation of the world. These are those that God has given the Son and these are the body of Christ He died for, His body, the Church.

Isaiah 8:11-22 For the LORD spake thus to me with a strong hand, and instructed me that I should not walk in the way of this people, saying, Say ye not, A confederacy, to all them to whom this people shall say, A confederacy; neither fear ye their fear, nor be afraid. Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread. And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem. And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken. Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples. And I will wait upon the LORD, that hideth his face from the house of Jacob, and I will look for him. Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion. And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead? To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. And they shall pass through it, hardly bestead and hungry: and it shall come to pass, that when they shall be hungry, they shall fret themselves, and curse their king and their God, and look upward. And they shall look unto the earth; and behold trouble and darkness, dimness of anguish; and they shall be driven to darkness.

Why you ask?

Luke 5:8-10 When Simon Peter saw it, he fell down at Jesus' knees, saying, Depart from me; for I am a sinful man, O Lord. For he was astonished, and all that were with him, at the draught of the fishes which they had taken: And so was also James, and John, the sons of Zebedee, which were partners with Simon. And Jesus said unto Simon, Fear not; from henceforth thou shalt catch men.

Ro 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
Ro 2:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
Ro 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Ro 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

It is not up to man, but God who has made all things and makes His presense known to all He will. Then give them to the Son that they might be made by Christ in them, "The Wisdom of God, The Righteousness of God, Being Sanctified by God and Redeemed of God, all in Christ Jesus Whom died on the Cross for all that are His, His Body, the Church.

1 Corinthians 1:30-31 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

God's Glory and ours In Christ: Phillip

Christinyou said:

But we already know that the Father is drawing all mankind because Jesus has been lifted up (John 12:32).

We know this does not mean all mankind of the world.

If so then all would come to Christ.

Just becausd God is drawing all men, does not mean that all men will respond. The reason that men are condemned is because God attempted to draw them, but they refused.

If this meant all mankind and it was up to them, and they refuse, then God's Word would also be returning void.

You say, why did God make those that don't receive and are not saved, "why did You make me this way and why do You blame the lost.

Only God will draw those He predisinated to be in Christ, before the foundation of the world.

Logic wrote:

"""" Re:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Christinyou said:Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But we already know that the Father is drawing all mankind because Jesus has been lifted up (John 12:32).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We know this does not mean all mankind of the world.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wrong, God is drawing all men to him. Quit denying Scripture.""""

I am not denying scripture, but only studing in the Greek and many other scholars that are much more learned by the Holy Spirit than I am.

Logic also wrote:

""""Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You say, why did God make those that don't receive and are not saved, "why did You make me this way and why do You blame the lost.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Huh?

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Only God will draw those He predisinated to be in Christ, before the foundation of the world.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I knew it would come to this "predisination" thing. All your doing here is making God to be a sadistic tyrant again. No one can truely love the god you describe; creating people for the sole purpose of tormenting in eternity.""""

Again; You say, why did God make those that don't receive and are not saved, "why did You make me this way and why do You blame the lost.

Ro 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
Ro 2:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
Ro 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Finally; Romans 9:20-24 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Ephesians 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

This has nothing to do with choosing or predestinating those that are saved or not saved, but to those that are in Christ for the saved.

In Christ: Phillip

Logic,

If God is drawing all men to himself (I already gave an exposition of John 12 in a previous post that you haven't interacted with), John 6:44 doesn't seem to make sense...

[i]No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw [b]him[/b]: and I will raise [b]him[/b] up at the last day.[/i]

The "hims" in verse 44 are the same person. However, you are forced to see them as two completely different people, since you do not see the one who is drawn as necessarily raised up, whereas Jesus says the one who is drawn will be raised up. The pronouns are referring to the same person.

John 12 is not talking about every man on earth, it's talking about Jews and Gentiles, as can be seen from the context of the Greeks coming to meet Jesus, the disciples not taking them to him because he told them only to go to the house of Israel, and then Jesus clarifying that when he is lifted up he will draw all (Jew and Gentile) men to himself. The point of the teaching seems to be to teach the disciples that the Kingdom of God will not be bound by ethnic barriers.

If man has no play in their being sinners and no prt in their comming to Christ, they they are not worthy of condemnation.

Hmm...this statement sounds a bit like Romans 9:19 to me:

"You will say to me, then, 'Why does He yet find fault? For who has resisted His will?'"

Logic, your profile name suits you well. Your logical deductions and attempts to reason away the unexplainable are futile, however. As a man of God once said, God's sovereignty and man's responsibility are like two parallel lines; we'll never see them meet this side of eternity. It's absolutely clear from the Bible that God is sovereign in salvation. God chooses us, saves us and sustains us by His power alone. We have no part in it. But at the same time, the Scriptures show us that man is responsible for his actions and crimes against a Holy God. If a man goes to hell, it's 100% his fault. We can't explain it, and neither does the Lord expect us to.

Romans 9:18-24 were written for this very reason. Paul knew there were bound to be people, like yourself, who would object to God's sovereign work of grace, making such accusations against Him like "That's not fair!" or "If that's the case, God is a monster!".

Yet God's reply to you from the Scriptures is a simple one. I would heed to it if I were you:

"Who are you, o man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the Molder, 'Why did you make me like this,' will it?" (Rom.9:20)

Lastly, I will address your other statement:

In reality, all mankind have the ability not to be sinners; all mankind have the ability not to sin; all mankind have the ability to come to Christ and repent. Because, with out the ability, they are not culpable.

The above quote exposes you as an outright Pelagian and heretic. I plead with you to repent of this heresy and believe the Word of God, and the true Jesus Christ of the Word.

nearthecross said:

If man has no play in their being sinners and no part in their coming to Christ, they are not worthy of condemnation.

Hmm...this statement sounds a bit like Romans 9:19 to me:

God's intention was to use Pharaoh to show the world His glory & power no matter what Pharaoh does; either with Pharaoh's cooperation or without it. However, Pharaoh hardened his own heart as he resisted God and if God's intention was to use Pharaoh no matter what he did, who can resist God's intention?

Logic, your profile name suits you well. Your logical deductions and attempts to reason away the unexplainable are futile

As a man of God once said, God's sovereignty and man's responsibility are like two parallel lines; we'll never see them meet this side of eternity.

It's absolutely clear from the Bible that God is sovereign in salvation.

Salvation is not a thing, it is a relationship with God through Christ. Relationships are a couple, both having roles to take part in.

God chooses us

The fact that men refuse God is why they are condemned. It is not because God refuses man that they are condemned.

saves us and sustains us by His power alone.

We have no part in it.

Do you not know that salvation is a relationship where we have a part in it?

We have no part in it. But at the same time, the Scriptures show us that man is responsible for his actions and crimes against a Holy God.

If your theology does not make any sense, throw it out!

If a man goes to hell, it's 100% his fault.

Furthermore, IF it is 100% all God & 0% none of man, & God only elects a lucky chosen few; how is it that they who are not elect at 100&% at fault?
Your theology is nonsense.

No wonder there are atheists who mock God, because this is what they hear.

We can't explain it

and neither does the Lord expect us to.

Romans 9:18-24 were written for this very reason. Paul knew there were bound to be people, like yourself, who would object to God's sovereign work of grace, making such accusations against Him like "That's not fair!" or "If that's the case, God is a monster!".

God did not create Pharaoh as a vessel unto honor, God had to [b]reform[/b] Pharaoh into a vessel unto honor.

If I was arguing against God, then, yes, Romans 9:18-24 would be for me, but I am not arguing against God as you think, I am arguing your theology/doctrines.
There is a great difference between arguing against God & arguing against your theology/doctrines.

In reality, all mankind have the ability not to be sinners; all mankind have the ability not to sin; all mankind have the ability to come to Christ and repent. Because, without the ability, they are not culpable.

The above quote exposes you as an outright Pelagian and heretic.

Why don't you refute my statement with a common sense reply?

plead with you to repent of this heresy and believe the Word of God, and the true Jesus Christ of the Word.

I plead with you, adopt a theology/doctrine that lines up with reality. Stop the nonsense and giving bullets to the atheists.

Christinyou said: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- But we already know that the Father is drawing all mankind because Jesus has been lifted up (John 12:32). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We know this does not mean all mankind of the world. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wrong, God is drawing all men to him. Quit denying Scripture."""" I am not denying scripture, but only studing in the Greek and many other scholars that are much more learned by the Holy Spirit than I am.

You say that God draws only some to Himself.

Enough said with your response to me, Logic. You condemn yourself with your own words. If you keep this up, your
account will be deleted like your friend Jesse Morell's.
Please repent.

nearthecross said:
Enough said with your response to me, Logic. You condemn yourself with your own words.

If you keep this up, your account will be deleted like your friend Jesse Morell's.

Please repent.

this discussion is going the wrong way, i encourage discussion that stays on subject, for a long while it did, now it is turning into personal accusations, heresy calling etc.

Do talk and discuss scripture, ask questions, do accept the fact not all share your conviction of what scripture says. As long as we search the scriptures , speak about them in a way that is edifying it is ok, but now i see many take it personal when the other do not see it the same way, brethren and sisters, do be long suffering towards one another. If you have shared all your convictions about a topic and the other still hold fast to theirs, it is unlikely they will change their doctrines because of calling them a heretic or holding a heresy in their belief system.

When we get personal, even tho we are right we are still wrong no matter if what we believe is the truth.

All are welcome here, those who love Finney, and those who love Spurgeon. I think it is "healthy" these meet and talk, try search scripture together and reason with one another. as long as the discussion have the aroma of Christ, and edify the readers and participants in a way that provokes them to stay away from sin, become more loving, examine themselves to discover any christlikness in their walk, behavior , speech etc...

For now i will leave this open because i have hope for those that have walked with Christ for a season to be able to see how they could "redirect" this discussion back to a better way.

Or this will end as many previous ones.

please saints prayerfully consider your post, for attitudes, motives and so on.

"play the ball , not the man"

in Jesus Christ

Christian

Logic,

Do you have a response for what I pointed out about the pronouns in John 6:44?

With care in Christ...

TaylorOtwell asked:
Do you have a response for what I pointed out about the pronouns in John 6:44?

Man is condemnd because they refuse God.
It is not that God refuses man that they are condmend, as you imply.

Logic,

I already explained John 12 in its context. Do have any in depth response for my analysis of that passage from an exegetical perspective?

P.S. - I agree with you that men are condemned because they refuse God. Men actively refuse God, and God is not obligated to save them. Simply because he chooses to redeem some does not taint God's mercy, because it would have been perfectly fair for him to condemn all men, as all men sin against him.

With care in Christ...

TaylorOtwell asked:
I already explained John 12 in its context. Do have any in depth response for my analysis of that passage from an exegetical perspective?

My claim is that God draws all mankind as Scripture says, but men refuse (they do not come as they are drawn). The Father will not bring them to Christ who refuse Him. That is why all men are not being given to Jesus.

agree with you that men are condemned because they refuse God.

and God is not obligated to save them.

Simply because he chooses to redeem some does not taint God's mercy, because it would have been perfectly fair for him to condemn all men, as all men sin against him.

Logic,

I understand your claims. But, I presented you with evidence in the Scriptures that contradict your claims.

Can you prove as false my exposition of John 12, or offer a more Scripturally sound exposition given the context of the passage? Also, can you discuss the fact that your view of God's drawing forces you to make the pronouns in John 6:44 two completely different people?

John 6:44 contradicts your position. In my opinion, it is a very clear passage that says the one whom is drawn will be raised up. Coming to John 12, we can look at the context of the Greeks coming to the disciples to see what Jesus meant by "all men". We know it can't mean every man individually because John 6:44 says those who are drawn will be raised up to eternal life. Therefore, given the context of the Greeks coming to the disciples, it is a view in keeping with the harmony of the Scriptures to understand Jesus to be teaching the disciples that He will draw men from every tribe and tongue to Himself.

With care in Christ...

It says that those who come to Christ have been drawn, and will be raised up. In other words, it is not that everyone who is drawn will be raised up, but that those who come to Christ will be raised up.

John 6:45 gives even more insight as to the drawing, as it says that those who "heard" AND "learn" from the Father will [b]come[/b]. To it is not that everyone who is drawn will be raised up, but that those who both "heard" and "learn", those who both are "drawn" and "[b]come[/b]" will be raised up.

God is drawing all men to Himself, but not all men will be raised to life, because not all mean "learn" and "come" as the Spirit draws them. God is drawing all men unto Himself, but men resist the Holy Spirit.

Logic, how do you interpret this passage from Romans 9:

11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

i have not ever replied to anything on this website or any other at least i believe so but well i love this site may God bless it always. but it seems to me that logic is really that jesse guy who seems to cause trouble w/o regard to others

hi,even tho logic seems to be stupid and unteachable to the point where Jesus is wrong and logic is correct,we must not make him into a person he isnt.he is not nearly as bad as jesse.jimp

Giggles asked:
11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),

2 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.”

13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

jimp insultes:
hi,even tho logic seems to be stupid and unteachable to the point where Jesus is wrong and logic is correct

If I say that Jesus meant something which you don't think agree, you might think I said He was wrong, but I'm not saying Jesus is wrong but, I only explained that what you think Jesus meant is wrong, not that Jesus is wrong.

I am not Jesse Morrell, but thanks for the complament.

I normally do not post on doctrinal threads because of its controversial nature and I think this is primarily a males' realm anyways...but in reading some of these posts I do have a few questions: (maybe this idea was posted by some others? - I did not read all of them and if so, sorry for the redundancy)

At the end of the day, after you completed your work, what do you think as you look back on your days' work? Will your belief on these questions/issues have impacted your life one way or another differently?

All of us are adults who need salvation because we are sinners and know that to live victoriously over sin one must walk with God and be in tuned to the Holy Spirit where he can lead us to holiness. This to me is the sum total of walking with God.

My understanding, (EDIT)

ginnyrose

All of us are adults who need salvation because we are sinners and know that to live victoriously over sin one must walk with God and be in tuned to the Holy Spirit where he can lead us to holiness. This to me is the sum total of walking with God.

___________________________________________________

I agree since all are sinners and non can live free from sin apart from Christ Jesus then He should be all that matters. He should be the focus of our lives, living unto Him.

God Bless
maryjane

loingirder, that was the best reply I've seen here yet!

I believe this topic is lost

I believe this topic is lost

I've been reluctant to shut this thread this down, instead waiting to see if perhaps an impasse could finally be agreed upon by both sides. Obviously, this is not possible, with both camps believing the veracity of scripture (and logic) will suffer compromise at any hint of leeway.

Someone eventually has to pull the trigger and put this sad beast out of her misery. As a moderator, I love and value healthy theology and such...but even more so, I cherish unity among brethren. I for one would rather see George Whitefield and John Wesley embrace before the throne of God (with all their seeming theological conflictions) in a spirit of meekness, than one devour another before the thone of God in a spirit of vehement zeal. I believe I have the mind of Christ on this.

When, O dear brethren, will we come to realize that true contentment and rest comes when we lay our proof-texts and scintillating Bible logic down and just abide satisfied, small and sure in our positions in Christ. It is then that God will finally grant authority behind our words, an authority that will automatically exude truth (without our incessant polemics); truth that is at once verified by the Holy Spirit and that dashes all doubt for those who have ears to hear.

Thread closed.

Brother Paul