Aborted Babies Go to Hell?

Question is in the subject heading...

I know there is very little scripture on the topic of abortion, and the future of the unborn...

But we do know that there is scripture regarding life beginning at conception...

The baby leaped in the womb... etc.

If men are fallen, and there are none righteous, no not one, how is it that 'Christians' presume to know the mind of God in regard to the unborn... and assume that God owes children / aborted children heaven... when they pronounce in their denominational mission statement that all people are sinners and deserve hell... meaning that if God sends every person to hell, He has done nothing unjust?

"We deserve hell."

Oooooooooooh that sounds SO GOOD doesn't it?

Lets break it down.

===========

Deserve –verb (used with object)
1.
to merit, be qualified for, or have a claim to (reward, assistance, punishment, etc.) because of actions, qualities, or situation: to deserve exile; to deserve charity; a theory that deserves consideration.
================

We say we deserve hell with our lips, but we don't really believe it.

Aborted babies do not have the chance to hear
the gospel or the choice to receive Christ.
After Christ was born, Herod killed every
male child under the ages of two. This
is referred in scripture as the slaughter
of the { innocents }, key word innocents!!

Yes conception is the beginning of life but unborn children do not go to hell and this would include aborted babies. I agree with what sojourner7 said in his post.

IwantAnguish you wrote

"We deserve hell." Oooooooooooh that sounds SO GOOD doesn't it?

If I may this is a very painful subject for a lot of women so consider carefully and prayerfully before you post things like the above comment. Even though you do not mean it to, statements like the above could be very hurtful to some who have been involved in this sin before coming to know Christ.

God Bless
maryjane

The secret things belong to the Lord brother.

The secret things belong to the Lord brother.

I want to know if my baby sister whom my mother murdered, because she didn't want to be inconvenienced with a child, went to hell.

I want to know if my baby sister whom my mother murdered, because she didn't want to be inconvenienced with a child, went to hell.

I lost a child to a miscarriage several years ago and I know my baby is with the Lord. I trust that the Lord holds these precious ones in His hands.

God Bless
maryjane

IWantAnguish WANTS TO KNOW:
I want to know if my baby sister whom my mother murdered, because she didn't want to be inconvenienced with a child, went to hell.

What you have said is absolutely correct, but that is not the whole of the story of mankind. . . 2000 years ago Jesus Christ died on the cross for all mankind hell deserving in order to deliver them out of that punishment! I believe Jesus paid it all.

If they go to heaven, then perhaps I'll become pro-choice.

America saved 4000 souls today.

Better to kill a baby than to let it live and go to hell.

If they go to heaven, then perhaps I'll become pro-choice. America saved 4000 souls today. Better to kill a baby than to let it live and go to hell.

________________________________________

I don't know if your trying to be serious or not? Perhaps you are hurting and angry? I don't know but I will be praying for you. There is no way God would ever want us to support the murder of unborn children.

Please think about what you post before doing so. The moderators of this forum have asked us to pray before we post...did you honestly pray before posting the above comment?

MJ

The word says that there is no unrighteousness with God... Romans 9:14, "What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion." His judgments are just, pure and true. The Lord has eyes of fire. I am personally of the opinion that if no one has the opportunity to receive the Gospel, then it would be unjust for God punish someone whom had no opportunity. However, my answer is derived from scripture, rather than being something directly promoted by scripture.

You can no more say an unborn child is going to hell from a scriptural point of view than someone can say they are going to heaven. I would venture to say that anyone on either side of the argument could develop derived doctrines about it. The scriptures, in my knowledge, have almost nothing to say about it. But I will say that to believe that God sends people to hell is double predestination, and even the staunchest arbitrators of certain doctrines have fought against such erroneous thinking. (I will not respond to any debates about the unmentionable argument here on SI as per the moderators request, so please do not debate this, thank you.)

I have lost three children to the grave before they were born, in each case, my wife and I knew the peace of God in our hearts that they were in His hands.

The reason I say that the secret things belong to God is because the one area I believe the scripture says that we are not to be arbitrators of judgment is in the area of eternity. I believe our response to the question is faith that the Lord will do what is right. For every individual ever conceived, it will be up to Jesus Christ to separate the wheat from the chaff, the sheep from the goats. We can only know by fruit. We can only exhort unto salvation. We simply cannot sit on the throne and dole out God's judgments. I personally "think" that the unborn are going to be with the Lord. But like I said, it is a derived understanding from the character and nature of Jesus, not from any direct statement in the word. I trust that He will do what is right. As such, no lie, no falsification, nothing that is not approved of by Him will survive that burning gaze...

I am sure the half-hour of silence in heaven is going to correct a lot of our understanding about these sorts of things as well as give us a peace in the presence of Christ never known. Deuteronomy 32:3-4 says "I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God. He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he."

While, I have offered you my opinion brother, I still stand by my original statement as my absolute confidence. I am so confident in the perfect judgment of Christ that I trust implicitly, without question, His decisions. Even if I am wrong about them in this life. One of the greatest commentaries in the scripture on this topic, I feel, is found in Luke 13:1-5. "There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And Jesus answering them, (I love how it never states the question) Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? I tell you, Nay: but except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, Nay: but except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."

The question of Gods justice, and a persons eternal position is supposed to lead us each to this one conclusion...repent or perish yourself. Tell others to repent or perish themselves. God will sift in finality...not us brother. I hope and pray that God gives you peace about your sister. I pray that forgiveness is the concern of your heart above that of theological conclusiveness.

I am sorry for such a wicked tragedy in your life IWantAnguish. God is just.

Dear Brother; none of us agree with or condone
abortion; but we know this; GOD is very merciful!!

If they go to heaven, then perhaps I'll become pro-choice.
America saved 4000 souls today
Better to kill a baby than to let it live and go to hell.

If this would be an acceptable method of saving people, why don't you just take a gun and shoot a lot of young children? Absurd? Why? Killing is murder regardless the environment the victims live in, brother, [EDIT] and you know what the scriptures says about that!

ginnyrose

[b]2 Samuel 12:15-23 (NKJV)[/b]

And the LORD struck the child that Uriah’s wife bore to David, and it became ill. 16 David therefore pleaded with God for the child, and David fasted and went in and lay all night on the ground. 17 So the elders of his house arose and went to him, to raise him up from the ground. But he would not, nor did he eat food with them. 18 Then on the seventh day it came to pass that the child died. And the servants of David were afraid to tell him that the child was dead. For they said, “Indeed, while the child was alive, we spoke to him, and he would not heed our voice. How can we tell him that the child is dead? He may do some harm!”
19 When David saw that his servants were whispering, David perceived that the child was dead. Therefore David said to his servants, “Is the child dead?”
And they said, “He is dead.”
20 So David arose from the ground, washed and anointed himself, and changed his clothes; and he went into the house of the LORD and worshiped. Then he went to his own house; and when he requested, they set food before him, and he ate. 21 Then his servants said to him, “What is this that you have done? You fasted and wept for the child while he was alive, but when the child died, you arose and ate food.”
22 And he said, “While the child was alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, [b]‘Who can tell whether the LORD[a] will be gracious to me, that the child may live?’ 23 But now he is dead; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.”[/b]

Deduction... David was the Lord's. David was not going to hell. David's son died. David said, "I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me."

What do these versus say to you? Does this sound like David will see his son again, even though this child (most likely a young or infant child) did not confess "Lord"? Will David be in hell? If David shall go to his son, where is his son if we know that David will not go to hell?

Great Point Miccah, I totally forgot about that passage. This forum is awesome.

Dear Brother, Just know that our Dearest Heavenly Father loves you, your baby sister and your mother. I will be praying for you to have God's heart. Sometimes hard when we are grieving. And that God would reveal sin and forgiveness to your mother. He has open arms waiting for her. We will pray for her. Of course God hates murder of any kind. Even the kind in our heart. But He loves us and longs to bring us to the Cross of Jesus where there is forgiveness of sin and love of God. It is hard a lot of times and such a struggle to forgive but just think and remember of all the things the Lord has forgiven us for as we have cried out to Him in repentance. So with the love in us that is the Jesus in us we will love and pray for those who have not found this love and forgiveness yet. The Father understands your frustrations and hurt by this at the same time He longs for you - for us to see with His eyes and have His heart. You are loved dear brother along with your sister and mother. We pray for you with a tender loving heart of our wonderful Lord Jesus.

For those who say that scripture says nothing about the topic, I would dare them to venture further. I actually recently wrote a blog about this here http://nickvaticancity.blogspot.com/. Scripture is clear that a child in the womb is "enstranged" and "venomous".

Micah, I love your take on this scripture. 2 Samuel 12: 15-23. I did not think about this incident when I read this question. I often refer to this in relation to grieving over the death of a love one. This scripture ministered to me when your daughter died: we prayed fervently for her healing before and once she died, I left off praying because God has spoken and there is no changing it - got other work to do now - like call people, make funeral arrangements, etc.

Another poster showed how the scriptures are virtually silent on this question - there is no direct word on this issue apart from this incident. Since this is the case, allow me one more question: where did David get this idea that his child went to be with the LORD? It is not written in the law anywhere that I know of; never read it in the prophets, either...Is this idea not something that all Believers seem to know in their spirit, based on the mercy of God?

ginnyrose

Why is it so difficult for us to just trust God and know that He has all this stuff worked out? I mean if He can love a awful, spoiled, lying, selfish sinner like me who was old enough to make choices and understand, and still send His only begotten Son then why would anyone doubt that He can care for and make provision for an unborn baby who is not able to make a choice or understand? God is good and worthy of all our trust, since nothing ever takes Him by surprise I have faith that He has this under control.

ginnyrose I like what you shared about knowing it in my spirit because of Gods mercy.

IWantAnguish there is forgiveness for your mom, pray for her and share the love of Christ with her. Use this as an opening to share Jesus.

love in Him
Ellie

My fear comes not from believing that God is unjust...

But rather that He is just.

God shows justice to all not under the blood of Christ.

Christ suffered under the penalty of sin, and through HIM we have reconciliation with the Father.

The only way a person can come into saving knowledge with the Father is through the work of the Holy Spirit which is a gift of grace...

Thus... if Scripture is correct in that all men are sinful... and that we are saved by GRACE and not by inherent goodness, or innocence from child birth... then we cannot presume that the unborn have or have not been chosen before the foundations of the world to receive saving grace...

I would not say that all aborted babies go to heaven... I would also not say that all aborted babies go to hell... I would say that any baby that enters into heaven is according to the plan of the Father, and Christ knew these children for whom He died while on the cross, under the punishment of the Father.

For through one man sin entered the world, and through one man-God, we may enter into fellowship with the Father.

IWant Anguish,

Somehow this issue troubles you or else you would not have asked it here on a forum such as this. Why?

People have tried to answer your question to the best of their knowledge, yet you repulse it...why? Have you had a child aborted as well?

ginnyrose

Spurgeon on the subject:

“Among the gross falsehoods which have been uttered against the Calvinist Proper is the wicked calumny [slander] that we hold the damnation of little infants. A baser lie was never uttered. There may have existed somewhere in some corner of the earth, a miscreant”--a criminal--“who would dare to say that there were infants in hell, but I have never met with him, nor have I met with a man who ever saw such a person! We say with regard to infants, Scripture saith but little, and therefore, where Scripture is confessedly scant, it is for no man to determine dogmatically, but I think I speak for the entire body or certainly with exceedingly few exceptions and those unknown to me when I say we hold that all infants who die are elect of God and are therefore saved! We look to this as being the means by which Christ shall see of the travail of his soul to a great degree and we do sometimes hope that thus the multitude of the saved shall be made to exceed the multitude of the lost. Whatever views our friends may hold upon the point, they are not necessarily connected with Calvinistic doctrine! I believe that the Lord Jesus who said, ‘Of such is the kingdom of heaven,’ doth daily and constantly receive into his loving arms, those tender ones who are only shown and then snatched away to heaven.”

IWantAnguish said:
My fear comes not from believing that God is unjust...

But rather that He is just.

God shows justice to all not under the blood of Christ.

Therefore,Never fear God's Justice.

Thus... if Scripture is correct in that all men are sinful...

and that we are saved by GRACE and not by inherent goodness, or innocence from child birth.

then we cannot presume that the unborn have or have not been chosen before the foundations of the world to receive saving grace...

I would not say that all aborted babies go to heaven...

I would say that any baby that enters into heaven is according to the plan of the Father, and Christ knew these children for whom He died while on the cross, under the punishment of the Father.

Old_Joe said:
otherwise God would have been able to count more than ten righteous in Sodom, and more righteous than Noah and his family in his generation.

Since they chose not to be, they are condemnable and worthy of judgment.
Infants are not of age to be judged, therefore they are not included with the multitude whom Lot was pleading for.

The infants are included in the judgment as they were in the flood, but the fact that they are not condemned eternally is the fact that they were not [b]in[/b] the judgment though they were affected by it.
Infants are in the judgment (were affected), but not condemned.

We can relate this to 9/11.
God judged America and some died. Christians who dies were in the judgment, but are not condemned with they who deny Christ.
So it is with infants in the flood and Sodom & Gomorrah.

I would not say that all aborted babies go to heaven... I would also not say that all aborted babies go to hell...

_____________________________________

I have no doubts that God in His mercy would extend that same mercy to those who have never been born and have never been given an chance to receive the Lord Jesus or to reject Him.

I have a sister that died before birth as well but I trust that she is in the hands of the Lord. Your comment about being pro choice makes me wonder what your motives are in this thread? Is there an issue you need help or prayer with?

Have you shared with your mom about the Lord? Have you talked to her about this and shared with her great need of the Lord?

in Him
Ellie

Paul's argument in Romans 1 is that the unbelievers are able to understand and see God's greatness in creation, yet deny it in unrighteousness. Those who are unborn, or severely mentally retarded cannot understand these things, thus I think there is safe reason for trusting that God applies the salvation of Christ to some in His graciousness.

With care in Christ...

Hi old Joe

I was actually directing my question toward IWantAnguish concerning his mentioning becoming pro choice:) IF however he/she does not wish to respond that is fine I understand. They do not have to.

You wrote

Ever try convincing a lost pregnant woman that if she were to kill her baby it would automatically go to heaven? It doesn't go well.

I am not trying to be disrespectful but why would any believer try to convince a lost pregnant woman that if she kills her baby it would go to heaven? Why would I want to offer them some kind of comfort for the sin they are about to commit? Honestly and this again is not to be disrespectful but most woman women who are not saved and are having abortions do not even care where their babies go since they do not view them as babies. They see them as a blob of tissue that is medically called the fetus.

Edit :Old joe, I just read your post to Taylor. No we should not give false comfort to a woman who is about to abort her baby. Having said that as a woman who has lost a child not so long ago do to miscarriage I would never want to heap condemnation unto or add sorrow to a mourning mother that her unborn baby is now suffering eternity in hell. The grief that carries with it would be a very powerful tool in the hands of the enemy to attack any mother who has lost her baby that God is not just.

Aren't we judged for the things we know? Every man can be guilty of sin because they refuse to listen to the conscious of their heart, and the law written on their heart, and the Laws of Nature. When does this apply to us? Im not really sure if someone has the answer that would be helpful.

Ginny Rose Asked:

Since this is the case, allow me one more question: where did David get this idea that his child went to be with the LORD? It is not written in the law anywhere that I know of; never read it in the prophets, either...Is this idea not something that all Believers seem to know in their spirit, based on the mercy of God?

It is funny that you asked this question because I was doing a personal study on the idea of resurrection in the scriptures last month because I wanted to know when the Resurrection of Christ was first mentioned, and to what degree it was mentioned in the Old Testament Ginny.

It appears to me that Job was one of the first to get a gleam of understanding concerning the resurrection of the body. In chapter 14 he rhetorically asks, "If a man die, shall he live again? All the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come." Five chapters later he seems to answer his own question in 19:25-27, "For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth; And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me." From what I understand, most 'scholars' suggest that Job is the oldest book in the bible, so this would probably be the true first mention of resurrection in the bible chronologically.

The next mention I could find (and I know I am not a scholar, I am sure someone will find other verses) was found in Psalm 16:10, "For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption." This was an obvious reference to the resurrection of our Lord (Acts 13:35 quotes it,) however it is seemingly a new and fresh revelation as well about the ever after. Psalm 17:15 also is another prophetic revelation concerning the afterlife, "As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness."

Hebrews 1:1 says that God has revealed himself, "At sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets." It would seem that one of those "sundry" times and "divers manners" was speaking about the idea of resurrection and afterlife through David.

Another passage David (well, I assume it was David, as the Psalm only says it is dedicated to the sons of Korah, but Spurgeon and others thought it sounded so much like David, it would be hard to conclude otherwise) speaks on resurrection is Psalm 49:15, "But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah." And indeed this ought to have been dedicated to the sons of Korah because of the fact that they were spared the fate of being sucked directly into Sheol along with the gainsayers who joined their wicked rebellious father.

*Breathe* *Pant* *Un-cramp fingers*

I quote all of that to begin to answer your question as to how David knew what he knew about seeing his dead son after he died. David was uniquely given insight into the afterlife. More so than probably anyone before his time. We know only from Hebrews that Abraham looked for a city whose foundations were not of this world, but unless the Holy Spirit had inspired such a quote, I do not think I would have concluded that from a cursory reading of Genesis.

David seemed to be given a bit more of the "sundry" than anyone else as it concerned this issue (at least until that point in Israels history.) So I would say that he was actually qualified to make such a statement about his son, if I can be so brash and crude to state it in such a modern manner. Normally I caution people, and take caution myself when interpreting statements in narrative in scripture because it is easy to forget that the Bible will often state someone said something and not take a side at all as to whether or not the statement was actually true. This is where we have to be workmen who need not to be ashamed. So I conclude that a lot of the Psalms actually give credibility and bolster David's statement. Through the final death of David's son, God gave David the faith through hope to repent and love.

I hope that helps.

I believe those infants who die which are elect will indeed be saved along with us who believe. For those who believe it is impossible for an infant to be born again need only consider John the Baptist, who was filled with the Holy Spirit even in the womb! What is stopping God from doing the same with infants of His own choosing still today? Now does God choose to save all infants who die in infancy? I do not know. This is indeed a case of Deut. 29:29, [i]"The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law."[/i]

However I do tend to believe that God does indeed save at least the dying children of believers, as is stated in the canons of dort,

"Article 17: The Salvation of the Infants of Believers

Since we must make judgments about God's will from his Word, which testifies that the [b]children of believers are holy, not by nature but by virtue of the gracious covenant in which they together with their parents are included, godly parents ought not to doubt the election and salvation of their children whom God calls out of this life in infancy."[/b]

1 Corinthians 7:14, [b]"For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy."[/b] Notice the following: the children of even only one believer are "holy", also known as, "set apart" to God.

[b]
Westminster Confession of Faith
Chapter X
Of Effectual Calling

III. Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated, and saved by Christ, through the Spirit,[12] who works when, and where, and how He pleases:[13] so also are all other elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.[14][/b]

Scripture Proofs:
[12] LUK 18:15 And they brought unto him also infants, that he would touch them: but when his disciples saw it, they rebuked them. 16 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. ACT 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. JOH 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 1JO 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. ROM 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

[13] JOH 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

[14] 1JO 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. ACT 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Once a person can through logic determine that the preborn may be lost - oh, heaven forbid! - those born prematurely through abortion, what is a person to do?

ginnyrose

God also provides many promises to the fatherless, and surely an aborted baby is abandoned by both father and mother before even born.

Deuteronomy 10:18 "He defends the cause of the fatherless and the widow, and loves the alien, giving him food and clothing."

John 1:27 "Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world."

My thought is as a seed of Adam they are commended but in the case of the Aborted there is mercy because of the ignorance they possess (without even the ability to show this ignorance) same with a little baby they are ignorant of right and wrong so there is grace.

I am still a virgin... have not caused any girl to commit abortion.

I have had a little sister aborted... she would be 12 right now.

I have not confronted my mother on the topic yet... she does not know that I know... I want to exercise prudence in anything that would further separate my family from one another... thus I am wrestling with this issue by myself.

I am not pro-choice. I deem it evil to dismantle an infant in the womb, piece by piece... it is quite disgusting to watch. I would not wish this type of torture on the most wicked of men.

The reason this question has come up is due to attempting the nature of the heart of man.

The more I know of the Word of God, the more wicked I see myself. The more I learn of God's holiness, the more I see my own self-centered paradigm / worldview. Everything I do is tainted with selfishness.

Further, why do I do what I do? Why do I make the choices that I make? How much of what you choose to do, or choose to think is of your own volition? And how much of what you think, and how you think about things a product of the sum of conditions around you, acting upon you?

All of my high-school friends are like xerox copies out of the copy machine of the world. They all watch the same tv shows, listen to the same type of music, dress in the same way, think the same way... How many of them chose to turn into a copy of one another?

Did they actively think, "I want to be like this," and then work towards that point?

As I spend time with an unsaved friend, I see more and more his helplessness to come to know God. He has no desire to know God, has no need for God, hates God and despises His word. His mother often tells him to read his Bible and pray, but he rails against her and tells her to leave him alone.

What is the difference between my friend and an unborn child? Is my friend guilty because of his dead / unregenerate heart? According to the Bible, as much as it may go against our humanistic culture, and man-centered idol-God, YES, he is guilty regardless of him requiring GRACE, God's unmerited favor to enter into heaven / fellowship through the blood of Christ.

Salvation would not be gracious if we deserved it. God can choose to give grace to some, and to others, He may deny it.

We are all born dead to God... only through the regenerating Spirit can we come to know Him.

Jesus did not come to make bad people good, but dead people live.....

P.S. Job 10:18 Wherefore then hast thou brought me forth out of the womb? Oh that I had given up the ghost, and no eye had seen me!

Why would Job say this?

sorry I posted incorrectly.
in Him
Ellie

To those who believe babies go to hell

How would you council this young mother? She is 5 months pregnant and excitedly awaiting the arrival of her baby girl. She hopes and dreams of the day when she will hold this little precious life in her arms. She feels her kick and hic up, she feels ever turn and every stretch the baby makes. There is a connection and a bond that has already formed and with out even knowing this little person she has already fallen deeply in love with her. Then one morning the unthinkable happens, she begins to bleed. She frantically calls the doctor and begins praying while waiting for him to pick up the phone. The doctor tells her to go to the hospital at once so she does, all the while praying silent prayers for her baby daughter. Hours later she lays in a recovery room, her heart is broken, her baby girl died in the womb, after a painful procedure the baby is delivered and taken away. This mother she searches to understand, she prays and asks why but no answers come. Her arms ache for her unborn child and she wishes for nothing more then to hold close. She begins to wonder did she do something wrong, was she some how to blame for the death of her little baby girl? Seeing an opportunity the enemy taunts her, he laughs at her, he accuses her day and night until one day she can bare the guilt and sorrow no longer so she cries out to the Lord?

My question is to some of you, if God sends some babies to hell how are you going to council this young mother, how are you going to share with her that her heavenly Father just may have sent her little baby girl to hell? Knowing that this little girl never reached an age to understand, to neither accept or reject Jesus how do you tell her that God chooses to send some babies to hell.

God Bless
maryjane

I really sense the claws are out in this thread - some of the responses are so cold and heartless and it really grieves me.

My heart goes out to those who have lost children, a lady in our church lost twin girls before birth and a six week old daughter, yet she has a smile to melt everyone's heart and a huge heart of love! and to top it all works as a midwife!

Come on folks - get some compassion here.

In some of these responses there are people who are hurting and throwing themselves on the loving heavenly father that God is, yet some of you are trampling over hearts with hob nail boots of self righteous indignation.

We have a God with a heart of a loving father, who desires that none should perish, a God full of tender mercy and compassion - which some Christians could do with a dose of!

It seems that God may forgive women who turn to Him who have done this act - for whatever reason - but then have to face the wrath of man who can't forgive.

Babies have no understanding and are totally dependant - In Sodom & Gomorrah God was judging on men and women at an age of understanding as to who lived a righteous Godly life - and there wasn't any!
You cannot hold babies accountable for the state of your town or nation - get real here!!

Some of you on this thread are so dogmatic and legalistic that I know you have never felt the pain of the loss of a child, otherwise you wouldn't be condemning everyone else's children to hell - but rather you would also be throwing all your faith in a loving heavenly father who comforts those who grieve, and in whose hands we place our children.

To 'Iwantanguish' I would say - you named yourself 'Iwant anguish' It seems now that God has answered you!
Now, how are you going to deal with this anguish?

To be honest with you, you are going about it the wrong way - you say that your mother doesn't even know that you are aware of this situation in her past, and yet you have stood as judge and jury in her case and condemned her - also exposed her shame to all - before even giving her a chance to defend herself and share with you!
How would she feel if she saw your hard-hearted comments in this thread?

You say you are a virgin - so how can you judge your mother and the circumstances she felt herself to be in that brought about the decision she made.

Please have some compassion - honour your mother - at least you still have one! Show her love and respect, God still loves her - and don't forget we are also judged on how we treat our parents!

Please pray that the Lord will present to you the opportunity for you both to share together - and when she does share - listen!
God gave us two ears but only one mouth - give your mother a chance!

Thank You Ceri so much for posting I agree with what you shared here.

God Bless
mj

IWantAnguish
you wrote:

I have not confronted my mother on the topic yet... she does not know that I know... I want to exercise prudence in anything that would further separate my family from one another... thus I am wrestling with this issue by myself.

I agree with what Ceri shared with you. Give your mother a chance to talk with you about this. You have not even asked her about this. Being a teenager and discovering your pregnant can be a very frightening time. Unless you are in that situation you have no idea how difficult it can be. Guys can and often do just walk away but for the girl its different. Its actually happening to you and with out support many young girls make selfish, stupid decisions that they end up regretting later. For some who choose to abort their babies, they struggle with shame and guilt for years and years to come. Perhaps the Lord has allowed you to discover this truth concerning your mother so that you might go and share with your her the love and forgiveness that is found in Christ Jesus if she repents and surrenders her life unto the Lord. Perhaps it is a door that He is opening to you with your mom? Please pm Ginnyrose if you have questions or need advice, she is a dear sister on this forum who has fifteen years experience working with crisis pregnancy, you do not have to wrestle with this alone.

Abortion is a wicked and destructive sin, but even this sin is no more or less vile to the Lord then holding bitterness or unforgiveness is. Something to consider?

____________________________________________________

you wrote:

All of my high-school friends are like xerox copies out of the copy machine of the world. They all watch the same tv shows, listen to the same type of music, dress in the same way, think the same way... How many of them chose to turn into a copy of one another? Did they actively think, "I want to be like this," and then work towards that point?

Actually yes they do choose to actively live as Lord of their own lives. I have dealt with many young people, teens and young adults alike and they do choose to live in selfish sinful rebellion to God. There are different reasons of course for some its because of peer pressure or just a desire to fit in, for others they believe they know better then anyone including God, for others they just love their sin.
___________________________________________________________

You wrote:

As I spend time with an unsaved friend, I see more and more his helplessness to come to know God. He has no desire to know God, has no need for God, hates God and despises His word. His mother often tells him to read his Bible and pray, but he rails against her and tells her to leave him alone.

sadly your friend has made his decisions, at this time in his life he is choosing to reject Christ. I know this is difficult because you care for your friend but he is old enough to understand the gospel and he as chosen to reject Jesus. Pray for your friend and share Jesus with him.
_____________________________________________________

God Bless
mj

benjoseph wrote:

No. No one is born opposed to God. No one is unborn opposed to God either. This is more 'total depravity' and 'original sin' nonsense.

I totally disagree with what you wrote here. While I know that all are born with sin nature and this is Biblical truth, I also know that God cares for unborn babies and small children. Not all those who believe and know that there is sin nature and that all fall short the glory of God believe that unborn babies go to hell.

Aready mind wrote way back at the beginning of the thread: "The secret things belong to the Lord brother."

I think there is much wisdom in this statement and I trust and have faith in the Lord in this.

mj

Old Joe

Its clear there is no reason to carry on this conversation with you. You being a man can never understand and I will leave it at that.

For any other women who have suffered the heartache and loss of a miscarried child I will be praying for you.

God Bless
Mary Jane

Rest assured, there are no Scriptures, not a single one, that condemns these unborn children to hell, only some cold theological conclusions that are more important to some men that Scripture, the nature and the character of God and the attributes of a God that forever is beyond our understanding. If it is without explanation in the council of God's Word, then leave it alone and fall back on the character, the unchangeable nature of the Living God.It is in these arms that we truly find justice and mercy entwined together in the outstretched arms of our Savior on the bloody battlefield of Calvary's cross

AMEN! to this and all who expressed similar sentiments! AMEN!

Visualize with me a bit here: Jesus said "let the little children come unto me" after his disciples worked to keep them and their mothers away from Jesus. So the children came to Jesus. I am sure he took them up on his lap and talked with them. You know how little children respond to a loving adult: it is with full trust and confidence. They mistrust no one because this is not in their nature to do so unless their trust has been abuse by an offending adult.

It takes so little imagination to visualize these innocent ones in heaven climbing up on Jesus lap and hugging him, kissing him and just cuddling down on his lap. Jesus loves children and so we. This is the nature of our loving LORD. Remember how Jesus cried over Jerusalem? "How I would love to gather you like a hen gathers her chicks under her wings." Matthew 23:37 and Luke 13:34. Ever see that? No? You must be the most deprived person around - to not see how a mother, be it fowl or animal will work to protect her young.

Yes, my Jesus is a lover of the young and innocent...

ginnyrose

Alreadymind,

Excellent points, post.

I just find it very informative that the OT saints had this belief, insight to the hereafter when we find it nowhere taught either by a prophet or a direct word from God UNLESS this was a piece of information that was taught to Adam and Eve in the garden and was thus handed down in the oral tradition or maybe by some now extinct writings. OR maybe it was via divine revelation, insight, like Job and David. It is fascinating what insights one gains when in the throes of severe spiritual struggles.

Thanks, Alreadymind for alerting me to your post.

Blessings,
ginnyrose

Hey Frank

They have my prayers too. Rest assured, there are no Scriptures, not a single one, that condemns these unborn children to hell, only some cold theological conculsions that are more important to some men that Scripture, the nature and the character of God and the attributes of a God that forever is beyond our understanding. If it is without explanation in the council of God's Word, then leave it alone and fall back on the character, the unchangeable nature of the Living God.It is in these arms that we truly find justice and mercy entwined together in the outstretched arms of our Savior on the bloody battlefield of Calvary's cross.............Frank

Just wanted to say thank you for this:) Truly awesome post!

love in Him
ellie

Hey ginnyrose

This is the nature of our loving LORD. Remember how Jesus cried over Jerusalem? "How I would love to gather you like a hen gathers her chicks under her wings." Matthew 23:37 and Luke 13:34. Ever see that? No? You must be the most deprived person around - to not see how a mother, be it fowl or animal will work to protect her young. Yes, my Jesus is a lover of the young and innocent...

Thank you sis, I can see this so clearly too. Jesus who loves the little children and cares for them.

Another truly awesome post:)

love in Him
Ellie

Edit: Ceri just wanted to say thanks to you as well. A very Holy Spirit inspired post that you wrote!

Thank you so much for the change in tone in the last few posts and showing a more compassionate heart.
The messages are now more uplifting and supportive of those people in these dreadful situations.
Thank you also for the private messages.

I always say to my children 'what flows out your mouth when under pressure - is it pure fruit juice - know what I mean! for we are known by the fruit we show in our lives and in our speech.

Don't forget what Jesus said regarding people who hurt little children - millstones around the neck and being cast into the depths of the sea!!
That's how much God loves children!

I said the lady at our church that lost the three baby girls - notice when God restored unto Job double what Job had lost - Job didn't receive double the amount of his children that were lost - why? - because in God's eyes they were still there! - they were not lost to God!
To you who have lost children - I want to comfort you with these words that they are not lost! but are in God's presence waiting for that great reunion day!

Be asured, your baby sister is in heaven.

Be assured? These are deep topics that we all have some sense about from the Scriptures, but the Bible never says explicitly what happens to babies who die. I think we can comfort inquirers that babies are not at the age to be morally responsible, but we shouldn't masquerade as those who actually speak the decrees of God on any soul. Abraham said the judge of all the earth would do what is right, and we can expect him to do so. I think there is little doubt in the great hereafter we will all agree with his judgment.

Old Joe.
You are using scripture to attack and out of context, making it say what you want it to say. You come across as so cold, hard hearted and legalistic.

You are making assumptions on me but know nothing about me and my deep personal relationship with the Lord.
He has seen me through deep waters and firey trials that you would never believe and is now using my testimony to reach others in an amazing way.
The Lord speaks so directly and leaves me overwhelmed by His amazing love for me.

These trials have left me with such a deep awareness of peoples hearts, a strong sense of compassion, justice and injustice and a prayer life that has grown so deep that I cry as I pray for people, as I feel their pain.

I can assure you that I am nothing at all like the verses you quote.
I'm often told by those who know me that I wear my heart on my sleeve, my life is an open book (literally very soon)I'm so honest and also have a righteous anger.

My husband makes me laugh to encourage me when he tells me I had to put weight on to have a bigger body to fit my heart into! bless him!

Alright, I'll share with you - The weight gain my husband refers to was actually due to comfort eating after suffering sexual abuse and rape for 8 years from the age of 12 - by one of my church deacon's! He is now in prison.

I used to lay in bed at night pleading with the Lord that I would not get pregnant - and thinking up plans of what I might do if I did!

The fact I take part in these forums is a miracle in itself as I was so quiet, shy, 'hide in a corner' girl, who was an expert at hiding her true feelings and would never ever share thoughts and opinions not even with family!

Just over 2 years ago, I came forward and spoke out after the Lord Himself told me so clearly that I had to speak out - even telling me who to talk to! This had to be God as He told me to tell the last person I would have told - a fellow deacon who'd been best friend of the offender for 50 years!

On the day my abuse case hit the press,along with photos of the offender on the front pages looking at me, we were in court again being declared bankrupt and lost our home of 21 years.

The Lord moved in a miraculous way with such scriptural input you'd never believe.
One of our church members and close friend offered us his home 2 doors down from my parents.

Within 12 weeks of moving in, my mam suddenly went to be with the Lord. I thank Him with all my heart that I was there for her! My heart even overflowed with songs and hymns of praise to Him as she lay dying, that I was unaware that the whole intensive care unit had come to a standstill as I sang aloud my heart to God and my unconcious mam!

I have thrown my life on the Lord with such faith and trust that you will never know, so don't ever quote verses at me saying I 'speak with lying, flattering lips and fair speeches to deceive people and that the Lord will cast me out as a rebelious person' The Lord rebuke you for such hardness of heart - when I posted my response with a heart of compassion for those being hurt by such heartless, legalistic words. It was grieving my heart to read such things.

I'm probably casting my pearls before swine, but I hope God grants you a heart of flesh instead of your heart of stone.

I'm probably casting my pearls before swine

Ceri, not everyone on SI is a hog - some are even sheep! and cuddly ones at that! :-)

Luv ya'

ginnyrose

The Lord rebuke you

I'm probably casting my pearls before swine, but I hope God grants you a heart of flesh instead of your heart of stone.

You come across as so cold, hard hearted and legalistic.

Thank you for your consideration.

Brother Paul