America denounces 'Obamacare' threat

I am deeply saddened at the sheer numbers of Americans who have allowed themselves to be decieved. My hope however is in God, who will ultimately be glorified, no matter our current troubles.

Well we are one step closer to the Lord's return. Things are lining up, and we need to know that there will be difficult days ahead for believers, then one day He will come for His own.

A pure testimony is needed in this time brethren. Let us be sober, vigilant. The night is far spent. Please watch.

Sincerely.

An observer described the crowd encircling the Capitol – at one point estimated at 25,000 people – as being like the Israelites of the Old Testament who marched around Jericho before that city tumbled into oblivion.

The church has failed to follow her appointed pathway of separation, holiness, heavenliness and testimony to an absent but coming Christ; she has turned aside from that purpose to the work of civilizing the world, building magnificent temples, and acquiring earthly power and wealth, and, in this way, has ceased to follow in the footsteps of Him who had not where to lay His head. … C. I. Scofield (1843-1921), Addresses on Prophecy [1914]

Today, I actually heard a man repent for gossiping about President Bush during his presidency. This man used to point the finger and utter "words" of nonsense (but probably with "good intention" cobblestones) two years ago. This morning, he publicly apologized to the congregation for those things that he had said.

I read the statement by another man today that said, "[i]Jesus would have supported this health care bill[/i]." I told him, "No...Jesus simply supported the principle that believers should freely give to the poor. He didn't ask for the government to be the mediator or decision maker for our giving." Of course, this same man believes (and argues) that Jesus would have supported the idea of "homosexual marriage."

This same man tried to argue that this legislation was "free health care" for everyone. I showed him that this law would merely require people to BUY insurance from an insurance company (and that taxes would go up exponentially to pay for this $1.5+ Trillon legislation). I told him that if he doesn't purchase insurance, he will be fined. If he doesn't pay his fine, he will be charged with a crime and face possible jail time. He still didn't believe it when I showed him.

Regardless, I am not worried about this bill. I do have concern with the loss of freedom associated by it. However, God is still sitting on His throne. He sees all...knows all...and directs at His own will and pleasure.

I am under the belief that our faith is not confined to our Christian fellowship, Church assemblies or online discussions (and debates). I believe that our faith should be with us everywhere. It should remain evident on the job, in our homes, as we drive, if we stand before an "unjust judge," and even in the voting booth.

Our faith should not be left under a "bushel" of Christian fellowship. Someone told me the other day that if believers spent as much time praying in their secret place and sharing the love of Jesus with unbelievers outside in this world (and living their lives before them as the Children of God) as they do arguing and debating with one another in the Church, then there might be more testimonies worth sharing.

That said: I continue to trust God. Our faith should always remain in Him, and not in legislation, a political party, a government or a particular man. As long as we continue to walk with the Lord and our relationship with Him is real, we have nothing to fear. After all, life is too temporary to be caught up with the fickle things of this life. I can continue to serve the Lord wholeheartedly as I endeavor to spiritually and physically provide for my house. In a few trillion years, we will realize just how short and temporary this little thing called "life" truly was. All we can do is make the most of it now...and make it count for Him.

Someone told me the other day that if believers spent as much time praying in their secret place and sharing the love of Jesus with unbelievers outside in this world (and living their lives before them as the Children of God) as they do arguing and debating with one another in the Church, then there might be more testimonies worth sharing.

I agree less debates and more extending ourselves to others in His Holy name.

Really this world is passing away, let us be about His Kingdom. I have faith in God, He alone holds my trust and no other. Men will do what men will do, but my eyes they are focused on Him. No matter what the government does God is still in control and there is no fear for those who are in Christ Jesus.

God Bless
maryjane

all this hyperventilating over providing medical insurance to the least of these.....no wonder you dont see Revival. You sit at the feet of Herod, and at the feet of Caesar, the foot of empire, and the ways of rich men and their legions and ignore the cries of the widowed, and fatherless, the poor. Yet when Rome lies and says "to battle in Iraq", no one here said anything about whether such was righteous, no one counted up the trillion dollar cost the hundreds of thousands in lives lost. You'll side with those who spend TRILLIONS to wage an unwinnable war? and for those who need medical care...your scorn?

I usually refrain from expressing political views, but I just wanted to agree with you Neil! What a blessing it is to have a President is more concerned with spending our tax dollars for health care for the poor and saving people then for war and killing people! What a wonderful blessing and needed change in the dark world of American politics.

Patrick

Democrats in the House needed 216 votes to pass the Senate's version of a sweeping health-care package Barack Obama has been pushing with all his presidential might.

They tallied 219.

[i]"The vote was certain after the House Democratic leadership finalized a deal this afternoon with anti-abortion Democrats to vote for the Senate-passed health care bill in exchange for an executive order from Obama affirming no federal funding for abortion."[/i]
[url=http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/HealthCare/health-care-obama-house-democratic-leaders-confident-votes/story?id=10162080]ABCNEWS[/url]

I've always believed since the beginning of this that this was about more than health care, Christians need to start believing and practicing (exercising) 'praying in faith,' anointing with oil and laying hands on sick that they might be healed because many will have needs in the days and years to come. So many people are deceived into thinking that this health care bill is going to solve all their health problems... little do they know!!

I truly do NOT believe this is about "health care" per se; this is about trusting in the Lord for your health care!! A man (forget his name) used to go and watch the Lord perform huge miracles in third world countries and someone asked him why these miracles didn't happen in the USA; he said he believed it was our health care insurance. People ran to the doctor before they ever ran to the Lord.

So I'm thinking in the Old Testament where God would bring His people to their knees to cry out to Him.... that He is doing that again today except it's in America. That is a merciful God! And He's not doing this to make us all sick; He's doing this to bring glory to Himself.

God bless us all,

(edited for clarity)

Saints, take comfort in these things. These are part of the economic judgments of God on our nation. We are bankrupt, ultimately, because we are bankrupt.

Hi Patrick...

What a blessing it is to have a President is more concerned with spending our tax dollars for health care for the poor and saving people then for war and killing people! What a wonderful blessing and needed change in the dark world of American politics.

The war continues unabated. Since the war was "won" in Iraq and Afghanistan in 2004 (and the goal of troops shifted into helping new governments to "keep the peace"), casualties have continued to climb. Many thousands of lives have been lost in the past year as the war escalated in Afghanistan. So, to be fair and a bit more accurate, we have a president who is spending our tax dollars on “a war and killing people” (your words) and also for massive health care reform (amongst other things).

What I found to be most remarkable about this health care bill is that most Americans don't even know what is in it! I spoke with my Congresswoman this week...and she admitted that she doesn't really know what this bill means in its entirety. She acknowledged that it is unpopular (with polls showing that 75% of Americans were opposed to it)...but voted in favor of it because "it gives control of health care to the government" and it "extends coverage to 5-6% more Americans." Of course, my local Congresswoman is staunchly pro-abortion and has no problem with the underhanded abortion language that will theoretically use our tax dollars to pay for abortions. I suppose that she initially assumed that I was pro-abortion, because she told me that she had several calls with President Obama and that he had “assured” her that President Obama will adamantly defend the “rights” of women to have “easy access” to abortion. This opened the door for me to share Christ, to which she quickly stated that she, too, is a Christian.

What does this health legislation actually mean?

I found it interesting that this was not presented with much clarity via the news media in the United States over the past year. However, the AP and the NY Times are now reporting the following:

- Individuals not living in poverty are now required by law to purchase health insurance.
- Subsidies will be offered to families making between poverty levels and less than $75K a year -- although the varying amount of these subsidies remains unclear.
- Last year, the bill proposed that families making $37K a year will be responsible for half of the cost of health insurance (which currently averages $10,000-17,500 for middle income families). So, a family earning $37K will be responsible to pay for half of the cost (an average between $5,000-8,750) toward the purchase of health care insurance.
- If your job provides health insurance (that is approved of by the government), you will not need to change your insurance company.
- Those working for companies or organizations (including churches or ministries) that do not provide insurance, or those who are self-employed and/or those who are small business owners are now required by law to purchase insurance.
- If you do NOT purchase insurance, you will be fined between $1500 to $4500 (depending on the size of your family) plus penalties for "late fees."
- If you do not pay the fine(s), you will face criminal charges and possible jail time.
- Taxes will rise by more than $400 Billion via increases in the Medicare tax -- with only about half of which will come from increases to the wealthy.
- Medicare and Medicaid will be cut by $500 Billion.
- There will be $200+ Billion in Federal payments cut from public hospitals and clinics.
- Medical device makers and pharmaceutical companies will see a hefty tax increase (about 25%) which will likely be passed down to consumers.
- Insurance companies will now be highly regulated by the government.
- Insurance companies have much less oversight regarding to whom they can extend coverage (such as those with preexisting conditions).
- Tort reform (including any limit on the profits of attorneys from medical lawsuits) was NOT a part of this bill.

I agree that some type of reform was needed. The current system was draining quite a bit of resources from the federal, state and local governments. However, I just didn’t agree with many of the peculiarities of this particular legislation. I suppose that the point from this current legislation that concerns me the most is the fact that it is now illegal to NOT purchase insurance. I find it amazing that such a sweeping piece of legislation can be passed by a simple majority of elected Congressmen against the will of most Americans. The power of the IRS is now greatly expanded to the point of fining individuals and families for failing to buy insurance. The powers of the Federal Government are expanded to the point of making this a requirement and even pressing criminal charges against those who cannot make such a purchase.

Ironically, I cannot imagine how a self-employed carpenter (or a “contract” worker) will be able to afford a $10,000-15,000 plan for his family when many such families barely “get by” in today’s bleak economic situation. Some middle class families (and self-employed workers) don’t have $50 leftover each month after all is said and done. The same can be said of many middle-income pastors and evangelists. Now, all of these will be required to purchase an expensive (and increasingly expensive) health care plan. If they don’t purchase such insurance, they will face a hefty fine (which is ironic, since they couldn’t afford insurance to begin with). If they don’t pay the fine, they will face criminal charges and possible jail time.

However, there is no need to fear.

With all of the fear mongering out there from all sides of this particular issue, we can rest in the knowledge that our God is still in control. He still sits on the throne. He still sees and knows each of us on a personal level. How marvelous! We can know and fellowship with the God who created all things! Each of us can spend time with Him…with the understanding that we are the apple of His eye…knowing that he sees, hears and knows us better than we know ourselves…and approach His throne of grace with confidence (Hebrews 4:16)!

I have been thinking lately about how short this life truly is. If a person lives to be 120 yrs old – it is not long enough to even compare with the immeasurable extent of Eternity! Yet, our eternal dwelling is contingent upon what we did with this short little thing called “life.” We all stand on the center of the timeline of Eternity. Behind us is an eternal past. Ahead of us is an eternal future. In trillions times trillions of years, this length of this life (and the sacrifices that we made) will seem so miniscule. Our future is bright…because we have chosen to give our lives back to the Lord.

When all is said and done…and we have been residents of Eternity for infinite infinites…the passing of this legislation (and legislation like it) won’t seem to be too important. The most important thing is what we did with Jesus. Did we meet with Him daily as we walked through the “wilderness of this world?” Did we long to see His face more than anything else? Did we spend our lives seeking to know Him and introduce Him to others? Did our light shine brightly everywhere we went (Matthew 5:16)? Did we truly love our wives and children and shower them with the love of God and the example of men who know and fellowship with God?

*EDIT - I don't mean to engage in a political discussion by this post. I understand that there are some believers here who oppose all threads regarding to legislation -- or personal views thereof (which could change if one is forced to stand before a "just" or "unjust judge" in regard to this). I love all of you so deeply that words could not express it! We might not agree on "earthly" (or even "spiritual") peculiarities, but we can support one another with the love of God that surpasses all understanding.

If you think the gov't has your best interest in mind in passing this massive piece of legislation... you are very very foolish.

The reason there is a thing such as checks and balances ingrained into the Constitution, is because the founding fathers understood the nature of man, that we are SINFUL at the very core, and that gov't will become corrupt if left to itself.

You either look to God for direction in life, or you will rely upon the corrupt men in gov't.

I pray we are more concerned with seeing the lost saved than we are with health care. How sad it is that people professing themselves to be Christian will travel to Washington to protest this bill but they won't even walk down the street to tell their neighbor the good news. People professing themselves to be Christian will read this long bill but let their bible lay idle.

Peter had this same spirit, when Jesus told the disciples what was to happen to Him in Matthew 16 the bible tells us that Peter rebuked Jesus. Peter desired for Jesus to fix the current political system, kick the Romans out of Israel, not die on the cross. I wonder if there are some that have a greater desire to see this bill stopped than see a lost soul saved. Jesus looked at Peter and rebuked him for being more concerned with earthly things than eternal.

Matthew 16:23 (KJV)
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Let this not be said of us, that our interest is more for politics than the things of God. That we are more concerned with money being taken out of our pockets than the eternal soul of our neighbors and family.

I pray I am not coming off too harsh, and I am not saying the Christian can not be informed or concerned with this bill. I just pray we don't let our interest in politics consume us to the point that we spend more time in energy fighting health care reform than seeking after a lost soul that needs to hear the Good News. God Bless.

Just my personal witness: I went to a Tea Party protest in Charlotte, NC on April 15th of last year. But today, and for the next 2 days, I was doing and am doing open-air evangelism at UNC Charlotte. If I wasn't already doing homeless ministry Saturday night, I would have caught one of the busses heading to DC for Saturday's protest. Seems to me, we as a Christians should do both.

I also like to vote :-)

*edit*

Greetings Chris

What I found to be most remarkable about this health care bill is that most Americans don't even know what is in it!

I will be the first to admit because of struggles I have with obsessing and being fearful, I have not read this bill myself. My husband has been following it and from time to time will share with me. He is kind of my shield so I do not get caught up in this and take my focus off of Christ. I will say though that he has been shocked at much of what is in this bill, how much control it gives the government.
_____________________________________________

When all is said and done…and we have been residents of Eternity for infinite infinites…the passing of this legislation (and legislation like it) won’t seem to be too important. The most important thing is what we did with Jesus. Did we meet with Him daily as we walked through the “wilderness of this world?” Did we long to see His face more than anything else? Did we spend our lives seeking to know Him and introduce Him to others? Did our light shine brightly everywhere we went (Matthew 5:16)? Did we truly love our wives and children and shower them with the love of God and the example of men who know and fellowship with God?

I agree with you in this. This questions have been so much on my heart of late. I pray as I grow in Him the answer to all of these will be YES by His strength!!
_____________________

I don't mean to engage in a political discussion by this post. I understand that there are some believers here who oppose all threads regarding to legislation -- or personal views thereof (which could change if one is forced to stand before a "just" or "unjust judge" in regard to this). I love all of you so deeply that words could not express it! We might not agree on "earthly" (or even "spiritual") peculiarities, but we can support one another with the love of God that surpasses all understanding.

Dear brother there has been a time or two when we did not agree but I just wanted to say you never made me feel attacked because of it. I am grateful for that. As I walk in Him I pray that my eyes would remain on Him and that I would have the love of Him to share with others and Extend myself to them in His blessed name!! I am grateful for the liberty to walk in what He has placed on my heart and I am thankful that you have this same liberty in Him!!

God Bless
mj

I grow tired of some Christians who assume that just because there are believers who pay attention to whats going on in our world, and even get involved in something like politics then that means thats all these believers do... and that they do not minister or evangelize. Where does this haughty, judgemental attitude come from?

This is not what I said or meant at all. I just don't want Christians, who hold the truth that can set people free for eternity to be consumed with a political agenda. It is easy to do, I have been there. Maybe you should read the last part of what I wrote earlier.

I am not saying the Christian can not be informed or concerned with this bill. I just pray we don't let our interest in politics consume us to the point that we spend more time in energy fighting health care reform than seeking after a lost soul that needs to hear the Good News. God Bless.

If you can find in the bible Krispy where we should be more concerned with stopping health care reform than winning people for Christ then please post it and I will apologize. You're right Paul was informed, I never said we shouldn't be. Paul's whole goal was to win more for Christ, not stop a political system. If Jesus was really concerned with stopping bad politics then He would have kicked the Romans out of Israel, He would have done what Peter wanted Him to do, but He didn't. Instead He rebuked Peter for being concerned with earthly things and not the things of God.

I believe if Christ were here today he would rebuke many of us, myself included, for being concerned with earthly things (our bank account) instead of the things of God.

I just want to win as many to Christ as possible, because I know one day Jesus will be coming back, Jesus will take over and rule the world. At that point it won't matter what country we lived in, how fiercely we opposed the health care take over, or how much we paid in tax to a corrupt government. All that will matter is how faithfully we served the Lord and how many people we led to Christ.

God Bless.

oh yeh, and the word below should be spelled , "hypocrisy", a word that fits well with this whole thread.

Brother I am just trying to get an understanding on your heart here, are you saying if a fellow christian who post to this thread and does not agree with you is a hypocrite?

in Him
ellie

Ellie, did i SAY that?

I did not say that you did call anyone a hypocrite, I was not sure what you were saying that was why I was asking. It was not meant to cause you such offense or to cause you to become angry. I do apologize for asking.
___________________________

is that clear and concise?

Brother your post is very clear. Sorry for bothering you.

in Him
Ellie

I only want to say there is a possibility that God does call some of His children to politics, and they can still witness in that office. I am reminded of Wilberforce. If not for him, there would still be slave ships and plantations. We do not know what God speaks to the heart of each man, but if called to serve in that capacity we better obey, no matter what anyone thinks about it.

We need to pray for our land and our leadership, no matter who they are, so we can lead peaceful and quiet lives.

im a newb at politics. anyone want to summarize what happened with this health care bill, please?

- If you do NOT purchase insurance, you will be fined between $1500 to $4500 (depending on the size of your family) plus penalties for "late fees."
- If you do not pay the fine(s), you will face criminal charges and possible jail time.

Well, if this would actually happen, I can reasonably expect to be jailed. And I likely won't be the only one...maybe God wants to put us into prison so we can minister to someone there that we would not have been able to reach otherwise?

On the other hand, I cannot imagine this actually happening - they will have to enlarge the current prisons and wonder where that money will come from? Not enough? Oh well, one can always euthanize sick folks or even healthy ones...

ginnyrose

Hi Wordislife...

I posted a little summary at in this thread (a page or two back) located at 2010/3/22 9:59.

Hi Sister Ginnyrose...

Well, if this would actually happen, I can reasonably expect to be jailed. And I likely won't be the only one...maybe God wants to put us into prison so we can minister to someone there that we would not have been able to reach otherwise?

On the other hand, I cannot imagine this actually happening - they will have to enlarge the current prisons and wonder where that money will come from? Not enough? Oh well, one can always euthanize sick folks or even healthy ones...

If you do not like this legislation... come move to Virginia.

Virginia has passed a law that declares the Federal Government does not have the authority to mandate health care insurance on any citizen in the Commonwealth of Virginia.

You can thank Bob Marshall for standing up to the Fed

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWafOZ6tvig&NR=1]Bob Marshall interviewed on Fox News.[/url]

Chances are... if you live in a liberal / left wing state, you will be forced to buy health-care insurance from the Government... if you do not comply, you will be fined up to 25,000$ + jail time.

This is why the IRS is hiring 18,000 more employees.

all this hyperventilating over providing medical insurance to the least of these.....

If this TRULY was about "the least of these" then obamacare would not be forcing a one-payer system down the majorities throat. Possibly everyone except a couple of people on here KNOW that obamacare has absolutely zip, nada, nothing to do with 'the least of these.'

From what I've seen on SI and 85% of America, I have never seen people hyperventilate about giving health insurance to "the least of these" but I sure have seen the tremendous uproar over [b]everyone single person in America[/b] being forcibly taxed through single-payer system, which is against our constitution, period.

I'm all for giving 'the least of these' health insurance like like everyone else but I will NOT be a party to forcing on the majority a huge tax WITH fines for not participating in it.

God bless you, Neil

Iwantanguish,

We may not have to move to Virginia; as of this morning there are 38 states moving to make amendments in their state constitutions based on the Federal 10th amendment!

Watch this 30 second video, most have probably seen it but boy oh boy does it resemble washington:
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNAHjsAnTd4]So this is how liberty dies ... (from Star Wars)[/url]

We may not have to move to Virginia; as of this morning there are 38 states moving to make amendments in their state constitutions based on the Federal 10th amendment!

And yesterday I heard something similar. It appears like there is something radical underfoot and it could get 'interesting'. My husband's nephew was in our store and was filling me in on these details....

As I read the penalties to be imposed upon noncomplying citizens, I get the sense there are gov officials who want to rid the country of a class of folks. Lets face it: not all will be able to afford it, so how are you going to successfully prosecute these people? Jail them? Prisons are already crowded. That leaves one other unpleasant option - kill'em. Hitler did it and what is there to prevent it from happening here? Only the hand of God and we have no promise of this happening. He didn't prevent it during WW2 in Germany.

The sun is shining and it looks like it will be a blessed day regardless how the puppets in Washington are jumping.

ginnyrose

"A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor and bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government. ... My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government. "

-Thomas Jefferson

"Human government is more or less perfect as it approaches nearer or diverges farther from the imitation of this perfect plan of divine and moral government."

"If men through fear, fraud or mistake, should in terms renounce and give up any essential natural right, the eternal law of reason and the great end of society, would absolutely vacate such renunciation; the right to freedom being the gift of God Almighty, it is not in the power of Man to alienate this gift, and voluntarily become a slave."

-John Adams

I have heard that there are a number of states who are now in the process of implementing laws to block this health care bill from their states? Is that legal, can they do that? What will the federal government do about it?

Chris you mentioned that someone told you if you do not like the health care bill to leave the country, was that your congress woman?

I will be praying for the Lords will to be done. God is faithful, I trust Him in all things.

in Him
Ellie

Is this legal?

That completely depends on your interpretation and view of the Constitution.

If you are a conservative, and you believe that the Constitution is to be interpreted literally, as one would interpret the Bible literally, then yes, this is completely legal. The Federal Gov't has no power or authority to mandate health care insurance on any individual.

If you are a liberal, and you interpret the Constitution as a slimey piece of jello, then no, the Federal Gov't can do anything it wants to do, and the states must submit to the Fed.

Hi wind_blows...

Chris you mentioned that someone told you if you do not like the health care bill to leave the country, was that your congress woman?

I have heard that there are a number of states who are now in the process of implementing laws to block this health care bill from their states? Is that legal, can they do that? What will the federal government do about it?

Unfortunately, this bill is now signed as a "law of the land." It is possible that the legislation will survive as "law" while the "kick backs" are deemed unconstitutional. I suppose that the point of contention for most Americans is in regard to the REQUIREMENT to purchase insurance simply for being alive. There is NO opt out mentioned in the legislation. I suppose that there is a very strong argument that this is unconstitutional simply because the Federal Government does not have the right to force a "purchase" on Americans (via the interstate commerce clause). This requirement is not a tax. The question is whether or not the Federal Government can force private citizens to purchase something. The Federal Government doesn't even have the power to require auto insurance -- because that power is delegated to the states, and Americans can still freely opt out of purchasing auto insurance.

It will be interesting to see what happens with all of this. When all is said and done, I am shocked by how quickly this unpopular legislation has been pushed through Congress. We were promised openness, transparency and the consideration of every alternative. Instead, we were given something that was done behind closed doors, alternative ideas were locked out, and pieced together with questionable back room deals used to garnish a few extra votes, and then forced upon the public anyway.

My Congresswoman did tell me several times that "[i]all western European nations have some 'progressive' form of universal health care[/i]." Now, this is not even true. However, after being told this several times in regard to this legislation and the proposed High Speed Rail here in California, I finally asked the Congresswoman, "What makes you think that Americans WANT to be like those 'progressive' Western European countries?" Now, this was a civil conversation. She told me that she enjoyed speaking with me...even if we disagreed. I also was able to share my faith and tell her that I would be praying for her.

*EDIT - I just wanted to make it clear that I support legislation that would help cover more people who aren't covered with health insurance. It is a noble thing to desire. However, I just strongly oppose THIS legislation in that it forces individuals to make such a purchase under penalty of law.

I just wanted to make it clear that I support legislation that would help cover more people who aren't covered with health insurance.

I will plead guilty to being real dense here, but why is this mandate necessary? Anyone can get medical care if they want it, at least here in Missippi you can.

But I am alarmed at the requirement that says you have to buy it. There are many Christians who do not have health insurance but are part of a medical aid plan. What will happen to this?

I cannot help but think there must be something sinister behind this mandate...and if it is, I know God will be with us, caring for us one moment at a time and we better start practicing it now.

Blessings,
ginnyrose

Hi everyone,

Taking up a few things that Brothertom mentioned:

"Socialism is fueled by class envy, and it must have an underclass to stoke up to revolt."

and...

"It is interesting that wherever Socialism travels, it attempts to establish the utter hatred of the Lord Jesus, and to abolish all faith in Him."

A short while back I read something on the internet that mentioned a man named Saul Alinsky and claimed a connection to him and the current President. Because of a particularly outragous qoute that was attributed to this man I decided to see if I could substantiate it. I didn't find much regarding a relationship with him to the President(I did not look much either) but I did verify the qoute. I also found an article about him and saved the link to it; it seems relevant. [url=http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/23/weekinreview/23alinsky.html?_r=2]Full Article[/url]

The author of the article says that Mr. Alinsky described his purpose in a book he wrote titled 'Rules for Radicals' citing a passage from the book:

“What follows is for those who want to change the world from what it is to what they believe it should be. ‘The Prince’ was written by Machiavelli for the Haves on how to hold power. ‘Rules for Radicals’ is written for the Have-Nots on how to take it away.”

The author continues with more qoutations from the book, some of which seem relevant also. Such as,

"The organizer dedicated to changing the life of a particular community must first rub raw the resentments of the people of the community; fan the latent hostilities of many of the people to the point of overt expression. He must search out controversy and issues, rather than avoid them, for unless there is controversy people are not concerned enough to act."

[i]personal note here, but it is peculiar to me how many flyers I see plastered around in different neighborhoods, decrying different social issues, that could be taken exactly as this[/i]

and also...

"...Remember that even if you cannot win over the lower middle-class, at least parts of them must be persuaded to where there is at least communication, then to a series of partial agreements and a willingness to abstain from hard opposition as changes takes place."

Maybe most significant is a qoute, though not mentioned in the New York Times article, that I have found also attributed to the book by Mr. Alinsky, from its dedication:

“Lest we forget at least an over-the-shoulder acknowledgment to the very first radical: from all our legends, mythology, and history(and who is to know where mythology leaves off and history begins-or which is which), the first radical known to man who rebelled against the establishment and did it so effectively that he at least won his own kingdom — Lucifer.”

[b]"...fan the latent hostilities of many of the people to the point of overt expression. He must search out controversy and issues"[/b]

LETS NOT FALL into the trap of power-mad megalomaniacs and the devilish pyschopatholgy that plays games with human souls.

As the author of the article suggests: [b][i]Know Thy Enemy[/b][/i]

Mr. Alinsky, he says, 'could not have been more clear about which side he was on.'

The amazing thing about Mr. Alinsky is that he does not realize that all of this is coming about so that the kingdom of God might topple the American kingdom, exactly as it has every kingdom that has existed since Babel. I believe what we are seeing is the continued economic judgments of God upon our nation, and that the financial bankruptcy we will experience is ultimately a reflection of the spiritual bankruptcy we have plunged into.

It is now official, with this new policy, our government will be funding the slaughter of the innocents. That alone should tell you the demonic nature of this legislation.

The American dream has been that all are entitled to the best medical care possible when an illness occurs. Great advances have been made during the most recent centery in the treatment of diseases. Some ailments meant certain death, like appendicitis, difficult childbirths, e.g., but advances in medical knowledge has made this a thing of the past.

Today many persons today are very quick to run to the doctor or chiropractor for any little ailment. The idea that the body could heal itself if given time is foreign to them.

Many people act like they are afraid to die, hence this infatuation with drugs and medical treatments.

Back in 1994/5 when our daughter was diagnosed with glioblastoma I saw close up the limitations of medical treatment. If I recall over $220,000 was spent on her treatment but she died anyways. The treatment prolonged her life 9 months. This time put a great strain on her loved ones. I loved our daughter, do not get me wrong, but this experience left me asking some very unpleasant questions: why? what for? who gains?

If we would be priced out of professional medical care, would we learn to trust God - again - for our physical health? Do we wait until something huge occurs like cancer, or do we make our health or the lack of it a matter of prayer,trusting God to bring healing as he wills?

Tough questions, I know. But it may be time for us to consider how we have made professional medical care an idol, one that has displaced God as our caregiver.

My thoughts, thoughts that have been troubling me for years. And to be forced to buy insurance when these questions persists...

ginnyrose

Hi Sister Ginny...

I will plead guilty to being real dense here, but why is this mandate necessary? Anyone can get medical care if they want it, at least here in Missippi you can.

As is, the cost will certainly be much higher than the architects of this legislation have claimed. The president is using massive cuts to Medicare and Medicaid as the largest way to "pay" for this legislation (over $500 Billion in cuts). Does anyone really believe that a proposed "cut" in spending -- even if it were actually carried out -- would total a half Trillion dollars? In addition, the cost of this legislation is contingent upon 1.) People not taking advantage of a system that is far more accessible; and, 2.) The population of the poor -- who will use the system itself without contributing to it -- not growing at a fast rate (via a bad economy, a high birth rate amongst the poor, etc...). I attended a workshop this week at Stanford University where most of the economists (including those who support this legislation) scoffed at the notion that this will cost what the CBO is claiming.

Now, I do believe that there was some type of reform needed. Why? Some legitimately needy people did NOT have access to adequate health care. In addition, there are people with insurance who are denied or dropped from coverage because of either preexisting health conditions OR subsequently discovered health conditions. Immense profits from lawsuits were driving doctors out of business while also increasing the cost of health insurance (most trial lawyers earn between 40-60% of the verdicts from medical lawsuits and settlements). And, most importantly, there are many people (such as illegal immigrants and the poor) who were using emergency medical services who cannot or will not contribute to the system as it exists now.

Like I said before, I am totally against the legal mandate from this legislation that requires all Americans to purchase insurance. This is the first time that this has EVER happened in US history! The IRS has not only been empowered -- but it has been enlarged (with the now-imminent hiring of another 10,000 collection and intelligence agents) in order to find, fine and collect from those who cannot or do not buy insurance. The funniest thing is that the architects of these bills have spent the last year talking about the evil nature of "big insurance" -- but the legislation forces everyone to buy insurance from them! The major insurance companies are profiting from this more than anyone else (except for trial lawyers) -- so much so that their stocks increased quite a bit today!

It will be interesting to see how this plays out in the courts. The Obama Administration shrewdly chose to make the IRS responsible for overseeing the legal mandate and penalties for health care. I couldn't understand it...but it now appears that this was a calculated move meant to be used as a legal defense if this case went before the Supreme Court. The IRS has the power to oversee taxation and penalties like this...so the Administration probably thought this could be a logical defense. However, the IRS has never been used on a manner or as a tool like this.

Like I said before, we simply need to maintain our faith in Christ. There is nothing to fear. I have a strong suspicion that this legislation might collapse upon itself either legally -- or by the outcry of Americans who are fined because they couldn't afford to purchase insurance. After all, the election will be held in November. The people will likely voice those concerns at the ballot box.

If we would be priced out of professional medical care, would we learn to trust God - again - for our physical health? Do we wait until something huge occurs like cancer, or do we make our health or the lack of it a matter of prayer,trusting God to bring healing as he wills?

Tough questions, I know. But it may be time for us to consider how we have made professional medical care an idol, one that has displaced God as our caregiver.

Those are great questions sister and something we should all consider seriously. Thank you for pointing that out.

Greetings ginnyrose

many persons today are very quick to run to the doctor or chiropractor for any little ailment. The idea that the body could heal itself if given time is foreign to them.

I use to be this way when my children were little. I use to think that every little sniffle required the doctor. Now when I or they are sick I pray about it and wait. If I feel the Lord leading me after time to go to the doctors I will go but so many times He has been faithful and everyone gets well with out needing medicine or the doctor.
___________________________________

Tough questions, I know. But it may be time for us to consider how we have made professional medical care an idol, one that has displaced God as our caregiver.

I have often thought this to. I told my husband awhile ago when they wanted to do all these really expensive tests on me that I just felt that the Lord would have me wait and trust in Him. there was temptation to run to the doctor because of fear but through prayer, God took care of me. I think there is a time and use of doctors but only when the Lord has guided me and told me to go. Its no longer my reaction to run to the doctor now I run to the Lord and seek Him first.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts

God Bless
maryjane

BILLIONS of children without clean drinking water, or even basic medical care, and a deluded woman living in the world's richest most violent empire makes a foolish statement like that, how far we've fallen.

Neil, I was not talking about clean water. Would you know there are godly Christians in these impoverished areas who drill wells for these people? There is one well-drilling outfit in Kalona, IA who regularly goes to Haiti to drill wells. And our church alliance has an orphanage that also owns a well-drilling rig in Mexico but are restricted by gov regulations to use it (long story short).... (The reason I mentioned these two outfits is because I personally know thee people.)

The issue is how man has idolized professional health care, has displaced God as the healer. People run to the doc for any little thing. Why not ask God for healing? And see where he will lead you...this is my point, Neil. And if my memory serves me right, those people who live in these impoverished areas are seeing more of God's healing hand then us rich folks in the USA because they are forced to look to God and not the medical profession because they have no access to it. (And we rarely go to doctors.)

BTW, our church overseer is a physician. He says for many medical physicians it is a business, one where money is to be made. But for him it is a means to help people. I like that, don't you?

Take care, Neil, and God bless,
ginnyrose

there was temptation to run to the doctor because of fear but through prayer, God took care of me. I think there is a time and use of doctors but only when the Lord has guided me and told me to go. Its no longer my reaction to run to the doctor now I run to the Lord and seek Him first.

MaryJane, you said it better then I did. Thanks!

ginnyrose

Quote: BILLIONS of children without clean drinking water, or even basic medical care, and a deluded woman living in the world's richest most violent empire makes a foolish statement like that, how far we've fallen.

Ginnyrose just wanted to say that if your reminding others to seek Jesus first in all things including the medical situations makes you deluded then I guess I must be deluded too! I think that we are in good company though sis because as long as we are seeking Christ first and His Kingdom nothings can harm us:)

Neil: I am praying for you, I am not sure why this topic has upset you so much but I love you brother and am praying for you. Be well and be blessed

In Him
ellie

I use to think that every little sniffle required the doctor

It's woven into our culture to look to experts to take care of us, for every facet of life. The healthcare bill itself is the ultimate example of this.

The reason I believe this bill is bad news is not because of the increase it will cause on insurance rates or tax dollars, or because I want people to go uninsured.

I understand that the issue is complicated both economically and emotionally.

My problem with this thing is the idolatrous dependency it might eventually create in the hearts and minds of American children and their children. I don't know if that concern makes me liberal or conservative...it doesn't matter. Train up a child to think that someone else needs to provide for them and they will not depart from it.

MC

My problem with this thing is the idolatrous dependency it might eventually create in the hearts and minds of American children and their children.

I know in my own heart I have seen this attitude of depending on doctors instead of trusting in the Lord. I don't think anyone here wants to deny the poor of this country good health or anything else. I know that is not in my own heart. I agree with Chris and ginnyrose, I do not like that I am being ordered to buy into health insurance with out regard to what my convictions in the Lord are. It does tend to make me wonder what the government will choose to decide for me next with out regard to what my conviction in the Lord are??? Not fearful mind you just thinking??

My husband commented to me last night that he thought it ironic that some(at his work) who support this bill because of what they see as unkind treatment to the poor are the same ones who shout the loudest in favor of abortion. He said it seems so disingenuous to claim to be the defenders of the poor and helpless and yet be the same group that supports the putting to death of those who are truly helpless? Such is the world

God Bless
mj

Bro. Neil,

I’m sharing with you up front that I am not angry, so please do not read any yelling or smart alec-ness to my words!!!

First off, we ALL need to be realistic in this universal health coverage. Do you, Neil, believe that everyone will be fully covered for any type of health problem? If you do, (I believe) you would be wrong.

(I believe) Ginnyrose is correct in stating that they will exterminate people but they will use the health care system to do it. How? you might ask. One option is comparative medical research (CMR). They take the cost of the treatment and divide it by your age and somehow find the years you would benefit from the treatment. The elderly, poor or rich, are the ones who (will be) in trouble because they don’t have the many years they can benefit from any treatment that costs over $5,000.00 (any amount really)

My mom has macular degeneration and she is 78; she was getting shots in her eyes that cost $6,000 a shot to help her (vision). Do you think she would have ever received the first shot if they used CMR? No, she would not have. And (presently) in England using CMR, a person has to have gone completely blind (from macular degeneration) in one eye BEFORE they’ll allow any treatment for the other eye.

Look at all the cost that ensued from your tragic sickness/disease a while back. Do you honestly think (that) universal health care, the plan Congress voted on Sunday, would have gone to all the lengths that they did to keep you alive? With this new insurance, (I believe) it is you who is deluded if you honestly think that they would have. (I say this because in the last few years, doctors and nurses have been allowing and watching aborted babies lay on a table and die. If they can do that with an infant, they will have NO problem whatsoever with an adult.)

edit ** I removed this second half because it really didn't have anything to do with comparative medical research.
AND all additions for clarity are in ().

God bless you Neil!! I have nothing against you and hope you still do not have anything against me!!

"...fan the latent hostilities of many of the people to the point of overt expression. He must search out controversy and issues"

LETS NOT FALL into the trap of power-mad megalomaniacs and the devilish pyschopatholgy that plays games with human souls.

Hi everyone. I thought that these comments above might need some explanation. I certainly did not mean to discourage anyone from being involved in whatever they believe they should be doing right now. Precise, well aimed actions are better than the merely energetic and abundant.

[i]To that end I wanted to share some thoughts that I had this morning, hoping that they may serve as a good reminder and also an encouragement. Maybe they were meant for me only. Hope they will be beneficial to others.[/i]

24 March 2010

Let's not rush to put out every fire these Satanic arsonists set - lest we find we are too tired to draw water for the thirsty, or that we don't have anymore water at all. I wouldn't be surprised if Satan would set himself on fire if he could get enough of God's otherwise useful people to come and watch. He's full of distractions.

Now more that ever we need to remember the Lord's admonition: be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. And His declaration, that the children of this world are wiser in their generations than the children of light. And Paul's also, that only those that strive lawfully, get the crown.

The wisdom of this world is that of subtlety, which they have learned with their father. And they excell in their plots and schemes because they run in leaps and bounds because they are not bound by any rule or law,except what is pragmatic, or convienent, self-serving, or in their interests. They run foot-races with automobiles and the least initiated of them are happy to do it just to get a free car.

But our wisdom is from above and we are bound to do, no harm.

Obama has successfully taken over 51% of the American Economy in 1 year.

From Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, GM, Chrysler, and now Health Care...

Welcome to the USSA.

Should we be surprised. The Church is lukewarm to put it mildly. Killing the unborn is out of control. Same sex are kissing on tv in front of our children and I could go on and on,and materialism etc..... And there are most likely only a few who could actually point the finger because they are completely holy. We have all sinned and come short of the glory of God. We have all hindered revival in the lands at one point or another.The good news is prayerfully we are all repenting who are serious about the Lord, our salvation, others and revival.

Our part is to heed to the Holy Spirit's conviction in our own hearts and repent. Spend good amounts of time alone in the Word and being still and know God. Interceding. To hide His Word in our hearts now that we wont sin against Him. And we will be ready when His timing is perfect for us to encourage and share the Good News. If we are not filled with Him we have nothing to give out. We need to not be anxious about anything as Christians. Easier said than done but we must seek first the Kingdom, seek the Lord while He may be found, cast all our cares upon Him for He cares for us. Keep our joy, our peace and love as in 1 cor. 13. and bear the fruit of the Spirit in Gal. 5. Having peace is believing God will take care of us in every way and that includes our bodies. Why spend a ton of money to fix up our physical bodies as do and then have a long life with Alzheimer's. Are we so afraid? The Lord says not to worry or be anxious.

Just a thought. This is what the Lord has ministered to me. I am encouraging myself with these words. So, I will

Turn my eyes upon Jesus,
Look full in His wonderful face,
And the things of earth will grow strangely dim,
In the light of His glory and grace.

Heavenly Father, bring us to repentance, bring us to hunger and thirst for You and Your righteousness,let peace rule in us that You are and will take care of us in every area, prepare our hearts to be a light in the darkening world. Let joy and love and peace rise above that those without hope will hunger for You also. That we may stay extremely close to You and to be ready. In Jesus Powerful Name. Amen.

and amen

Another Amen from me, Joyful Heart.
God Bless all.
Nellie

by IWantAnguish
Obama has successfully taken over 51% of the American Economy in 1 year.

From Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, GM, Chrysler, and now Health Care...

Welcome to the USSA.

[url=http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1924128,00.html]Obama's Student-Loan Plan: A 'Good' Takeover?[/url].....

(quote from article) [i]...the Administration's proposal to restructure the student-loan industry is, in many respects, much closer to an actual government takeover than its relatively tame market-driven health-reform plan.[/i]

*** just read joyful hearts post = Amen!

I think we say "the Church" we mean as a whole. There are some that were lukewarm but thanks to the Lord and this wonderful site, the light is shinning and growth is coming forth. So, if you are asking if I am lukewarm. I would say I am getting closer to the Lord, spending time with Him, responding to conviction and with God's help bringing forth fruit. I am not the same as I was a month ago. I say this with all thanks and glory to God as without Him I can do nothing. Blessing to you brother and hope this clarifies it for you. I am not always good with words.

Welcome!

Ay, Draw near to me - for I've saved you a seat at the Wedding Banquet!

Dearest Brother,
I was not offended but I have been thinking a lot of what you said. A good thing to ask the Lord to search my heart. A really good thing. And you are so right that we say things because we are used to hearing them. I have been listening to sermons and I hear so much of every preacher say how the Church is lukewarm. I guess I just said it too and maybe without much thought. Again, your comment has made me think a lot about me, my answer and the Church - this is a good thing. God bless you abundantly Brother!