What does the Bible really have to say about the secular Nation-State of Modern-Israel?

Brothers,
Why are we assuming that the promises concerning "Israel" in the Bible are all referring to a modern day, secular nation-state that happens to be called Israel? I think that there are too many scriptural acrobatics that one has to do to make the whole thing fit together and therefore, I don't see this an honest assessment of Biblical truth... it strikes me as interpreting the Word of God through today's newspaper, if you know what I mean.

I know that you'll all agree that Galatians 3:7,28&29 (in addition to several other places that we could mention) indicate that in Christ all racial, biological, and ethnic barriers have been broken down and that a new covenant family has been raised up - a New Israel if you like... This New Israel is the Church of Jesus Christ.

Unless I am very much mistaken this was the position of all of the Protestant Reformers and therefore we ought to think through this Israel-issue not only in light of Biblical truth but also in the light of the traditions of our protestant faith.

In addition to this, the secular nation-state of Israel is primarily in need of the gospel. They are a Christ-denying nation (2% Christian and 37% athiest or agnostic)... It therefore strikes me as odd that so many of my evangelical brothers would view modern-Israel as partners in the same battle.

I wish I had more time to elaborate, but I don't. In passing I would like to point you to the sermons of Art Katz on issues relating to this. I will say the following in brief:

The modern secular state of Israel exists so that God might ultimately punish it and bring the Jews to salvation at the end of the age. This is in keeping with the pattern He established in Deuteronomy 28-31, and fleshed out in intimate detail through the writings of the prophets. As Paul explains in Romans 11, a partial hardening has happened to the natural branches, so that we as Gentiles might be recipients of God's mercy. However, there is coming a time yet again in the future, where the remnant of the Jews who survive Jacob's trouble will be converted. The Deliverer WILL take away the sin of Jacob in the last days, and bring about a national salvation of the remnant of the Jews who survive that time. And so ALL of Israel at that time, will be saved.

But this will not come about without God taking up His great controversy with the nations. Be careful of spiritualizing the writings of the apostles and prophets away, as has been common in Reformed circles, so as to make the Scriptures one big meaningnless spiritualized allegory. For God does have a calling and purpose for the unregenerate nation of Israel. But the fulfillment of that purpose still awaits for the appointed time of God's mercy towards unregenerate and national Israel.

Splendid!

I think that your mentioning of Galatians 4:22-31 (although fairly dense material) is right on the money... v.26 especially. That whole argument is Paul’s final blow to the “Pro-Israel” contingent of his day.

Personally, I really feel that the whole Israel debate that is effecting a large portion of American Evangelicalism is nothing more than a red herring and a distraction with no REAL Biblical or historical validity behind it whatsoever.

And the contention surrounding this issue has pushed evangelicals into a certain political box thereby limiting our ability to credibly spread the gospel.

I pray that all of our brothers would set the "We support Israel" agenda aside and get on with the "We proclaim Christ and Him crucified" agenda.

Dear Brother,
I find it perplexing that you say that Reformed circles have spiritualized “the writings of the Apostles and Prophets away.”
How have Reformed evangelicals done so?
I would suggest to you as a Reformed Evangelical that my whole argument is against the over-spiritualizing of the nation of Israel.
I say this kindly but your reply is very “framework-heavy,” (dispensationalist I think?) and I’m not terribly interested in theological framework and speculation. That is what's brought on this distraction in the first place.

God bless.
R Crabtree

While I totally agree with this statement

"We proclaim Christ and Him crucified"

Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying, 3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. 9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: 10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. 11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. 15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? 16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. 33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! 34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? 35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? 36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen

To Rev. Enue,
Nobody said anything about hating anyone, that was an unkind assumption to make.

The question is whether or not a secular nation-state that happens to have called itself “Israel” is actually the same Israel that the Bible is speaking of.

You've mentioned that I've twisted the scriptures. If I have it was unintentional. But you haven't even referenced them to support your position... and this, to my mind, is much more dangerous.

yours,
R Crabtree

I say this kindly but your reply is very “framework-heavy,” (dispensationalist I think?) and I’m not terribly interested in theological framework and speculation

I'm actually just as against dispensational theology as I am the replacement theology of most Reformed doctrine. Both, in essence, create a two peoples of God theory, each just in different ways. I maintain, as Paul did in Romans 11, that there is one people of God, as there has always been and always will be.

I am also against the sentimental pro-Israel stance you see by many Evangelicals today. It acts as if the nation of Israel could do no wrong.

I would encourage you to closely examine Isaiah 49, which shows what part of the Messianic task was and is: to bring Jacob back to the Lord, and restore him into the blessings of the covenant.

Goldminer,

I agree too. 100%.

How do you interpret Romans 11 though?

yours,
R C

Sorry KJ,

I was gathering that you were in support of a dispensationalist stance.... In fact I'd swear it based on some of what you wrote... But nevertheless, I'm sorry if I've wrongly shoved you into a box that you aren't in...

I would disagree with you that Reformed Theology creates "a two peoples of God theory." What can you give me to support this. I really want to understand where you are coming from on this one?

RC

I would disagree with you that Reformed Theology creates "a two peoples of God theory." What can you give me to support this. I really want to understand where you are coming from on this one?

From my understanding of Replacement theology as held by the Reformed camp, two peoples are created by those who hold to the belief that the Church has replaced Israel. Thus, God had his dealings with the nation of Israel under the Old Covenant, but under the New Covenant, the Church has superseeded the promises made to Israel, and has effectively replaced it. Israel was physical, the Church is seen as spiritual.

This is my understanding of replacement theology in the Reformed camp. I'm no scholar on their positions, so, I could be wrong :-)

I was gathering that you were in support of a dispensationalist stance.... In fact I'd swear it based on some of what you wrote

I'm not going to deny I have similar beliefs to some things found in the dispensational system. But as one scholar once said, "We are all a little dispensationalist." :-)

I do have some agreement with them on some issues. God does have a plan for national Israel. But what dispensationalists have failed to understand, is that God's plan for "physical" and "national" Israel, has always been intimately tied together with them being a spiritual, priestly, and holy people. They have created a false dichotomy which creates two peoples of God, one for one dispensation and another for another dispensation. In it they divide the Messianic mission and purpose of Christ. So much so that some ulta-dispensationalists have almost created two Messiahs. Some, like John Hagee, have fallen off the boat into heresy.

Great answers!

Thanks!

I think that what you've said about the dispensationalist position is fair.

But what you've written about the Reformed position is, I think, not quite right. Here's why, although so-called "replacement theology" says that the church has replaced (or better, become) the New Israel, I think you'll find that historical proponents of Reformed Theology (Calvin, Knox, Zwingli, etc.) felt that God's covenants have always been covenants of grace received through faith.

Think for example of God's covenant with Abraham. Are we meant to take the promises associated with this promise with a kind of crass literalism, as if this covenant was a blanket "fire-insurance" policy for anyone who happened to be a Hebrew. No! God's covenants were always given by grace and received through faith (Galatians 3:7-9 is a great example of this).
And regardless of national origin, if the covenant isn't received by faith a person is outside of grace... And so Paul could write:

...not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,
(Romans 9:6 ESV)

And this verse alone makes me scratch my head when people start in on the “We support Israel” bandwagon.

Again, you gave a great and helpful response! Thanks.

Yours,
RC

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

I feel too many amazing miracles took place to put them back in their little piece of land. Only God could have done that. Why have nations tried to wipe them off the face of the planet, and still want to? They are a unique peculiar people that claim the lineage of Abraham, God's chosen man. They are blinded now for the most part but will see clearly in God's time. They will get their opportunity for repentence, just like the rest of us. But God is not casting them off forever. Will they all come in. All that choose to will, just as we gentiles have that choice. What God sets His love on He loves to the uttermost. He is a covenant keeping God. It is us who break our promises.

This New Israel is the Church of Jesus Christ.

Greetings, RevCrabtree.

Refreshing post! Some of us have discussed this previously. You'll no doubt discover (if you haven't already) that if you hold to this perspective you are in a small minority these days.

But what you said is right, and scriptural. The true Israel is in fact the church of Jesus Christ: God's new creation.

"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God" (Gal. 6.15,16).

This doesn't mean that God has "replaced" Israel with the church. What he has done is to bring the Gentiles into the church. Any man or woman whether Jew of Gentile, if they are walking according to the rule of new creation Life, they are part of the Israel of God.

If a Gentile is not walking according to that rule, he has no part in the Israel of God. And if someone who is a Jew by nature is not walking according to that rule, neither is he a part of the Israel of God.

Goldminer,

Thanks. This is helpful but let me see if I'm getting what you are saying.

Are you saying that under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, Paul wrote Romans 11 envisioning the modern secular nation-state of Israel, and saying that it would be granted universal salvation at some future time?

To my mind this seems a little more than we can get from Romans 11.

Yours,
RC

Dear ADisciple,

An annoyingly loud AMEN!!!!! to what you have written.

God bless,
RC

Are you saying that under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, Paul wrote Romans 11 envisioning the modern secular nation-state of Israel, and saying that it would be granted universal salvation at some future time?

I am saying that as a nationality the Jew can trace his lineage down to Abraham and even though other nations have tried to wipe them off the face of the earth, God still had a plan and covenant with them because of their father Abraham. I do believe that there is a spritual Israel and that it will be made up of both Jew and gentile who are both now called believers. But I also believe that God has allowed the little nation of Israel to continue for a purpose. Do I know why, only what the word says about it in Romans 11. Who are the blinded ones that it is talking about if it isn't Israel?

Hello...

I wrote this in another thread about praying for the nation of Israel. It contains some of my thoughts on this issue.

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Hi snufalapagus...

Hi Chris, I really don't know what you mean about we don't have to work, we don't have to pray, we don't have to help the poor since God can take care of all these things. I am trying to grasp the connection to my statement in letting God defend Israel, if He is for her.

Now, God is more than capable to take care of the needs of widows and orphans, our families and our own personal needs. Yet, the responsibility remains. Now consider what you wrote:

Israel can look after itself. If God is for her, lets see if He comes in her defence. She's leaned on the arm of the United States far too long, it's time to lean on God.

[b]Widows[/b] can look after themselves. If God is for them, lets see if He comes in their defence. They've leaned on the [b]welfare[/b] arm of the United States far too long, it's time to lean on God.

We can look at Israel in several different ways. We can look at them as a secular nation (both in government and in the physical heritage of the people). We can look at them as a nation (people) who have been rejected by God and replaced as the "chosen people" by believers. Or, we can look at them as a nation (people) where they have largely rejected Messiah Yeshua, but believers are now "engrafted" into the Vine of inheritance.

Now, America is unique in that it is a "nation without a people." The United States is a nation made up of many different people from different backgrounds. The nation of Israel, however, is unique in that it traces its "birthright" back to a promise made by God to Abraham -- hundreds of years before the Law of Moses. I believe that God is "married to the backslider." He has not forsaken His people. I believe that the people spoken of in Ezekiel 37 was the physical nation of Israel (who would be gathered back to their homeland from around the world). This, in my view, was fulfilled in 1948. I also believe that God desires for all of Israel to be saved. Believers (Gentile or Jewish) can receive the same inheritance as "joint heirs" in Messiah Yeshua (Christ Jesus). This is mentioned extensively in Romans 10, Romans 11, I Corinthians 11 and in verses like Ephesians 2:12 and Ephesians 3:6. It doesn't seem like God has replaced or rejected His own chosen people. I support the nation of Israel on spiritual grounds as well as on secular, governmental grounds (since it is the only free democracy in the Middle East).

To simply shrug our shoulders with the excuse that we should "let God be God" is akin to neglecting widows and orphans with physical assistance simply because God is their defender (Proverbs 23:11).

I do understand the underlying principle that you are conveying. We should always be willing to let God have His way. However, I also think that God's way frequently results in His desire to use people (or even governments) to bring about His will. I believe that God still sees and looks after the nation of Israel...and has used other nations to do this (like allies who ended the Shoah during WW2). Thus, I do not view Israel as "just a regular gentile nation." Yet, I would certainly agree that the nation of Israel needs God.

Personally, I feel that the idea that God completely rejected the nation of Israel by replacing the nation entirely with believes is flawed and unscriptural. Disclaimer: I am not considered "Jewish" in the sense that my mother was not Jewish. Still, my paternal grandmother was Jewish...so I do feel a different sort of kinship with the physical nation of Israel (at least, from a non-Halocho perspective). Anyway, I suppose that it is through these notions that influence the way that I think in regard to the nation. I still love and pray for the peace of Jerusalem (Psalm 122:6). I even hope that the nation of my temporary and secondary citizenship (the US) will not hand Israel over to its enemies. I certainly believe that God can and will protect her, but I also think that He might have been doing this through the vessel of the United States since 1948.

*EDIT - By the way, I identify myself with the Jews -- just like Corrie ten Boom's father did during World War II. He stood in line with the Jews who were being branded for their lineage. One might wonder: If God has rejected the Jews as His chosen people, then why does Satan hate them so much? Nazis, Muslim extremists and some modern neo-Nazis seem hell-bent on destroying the physical lineage of Abraham.

But what you've written about the Reformed position is, I think, not quite right. Here's why, although so-called "replacement theology" says that the church has replaced (or better, become) the New Israel, I think you'll find that historical proponents of Reformed Theology (Calvin, Knox, Zwingli, etc.) felt that God's covenants have always been covenants of grace received through faith.

I think you probably misread me. I never denied that they taught such. So far as I have understood these things, Reformed thinkers have always looked at the covenants as being established by grace through faith. But what Replacement theologians have done is fundamentally no different than Dispensational. Both ultimately create a dichtomoy between the Church and Israel at some point. They just pursue a different path to get to essentially the same location.

Dear Nathan,
I think what you wrote is unkind and unhelpful. You've set up a straw man and knocked it down...

To begin with, I’m not from the UK. I’m from Ohio. I've only been in the UK 9 months. I'm over here to preach Christ, and to do it without regard to any of your obnoxious armchair-historian critiques on the sins of the United Kingdom.

And secondly, Neo-Nazis, the British Navy, Holocaust Survivors, Anglo-Israelism (which, incidentally is not a synonym for “replacement theology”) etc. have nothing to do with the question at hand and I'm not sure why you introduced them into this otherwise civil conversation.

As a brother in the Lord I would encourage you to interact with other brothers as a Christian and as a gentleman and not like an unthinking ideologue… Honestly, if you talk to fellow Christians like this it makes me wonder, what kind of things do you say to people who are lost?

So be careful next time please.

And who knows, maybe you could even consider using the bible to explain your position.

Yours,
RC

I would like to add that no matter what your stand is on Israel as a nation, as christians, we are called to love and grieve and intercede for people everywhere. Our hearts should be hearts of love for Jew, Gentile, Arab, Scottsman, British, Zulu, you name it, that every human being on this planet would fulfill God's plan for their lives. How can we write anyone off. Love your brother, who is your brother? I think Jesus answered that.

Without getting into a proof-text war, I would like to humbly set forth the following passage for a close consideration. For in it, I believe when rightly understood, all notions of Replacement and Dispensational theologies, and pretty much most other systems simply must fall to the wayside as missing the mark of God's redemptive plan.

Carefully consider:

Romans 11:11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. 12 Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be! 13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.

We are getting into some deep territory here, and unfortunately I don't have the time to give a close verse by verse exposition. But for now I will give a brief survey of this passage.

In this particular passage, Paul talks about how God is using the salvation of the Gentiles as a means of provoking unregenerate Israel to salvation. How does it do such? Because Israel recognizes the blessing of Abraham being made available to the Gentiles, all on the basis of faith. This is calculated by God to provoke them to jealousy, as they are ultimately to come to the place where they are broken, recognizing that the blessing of Abraham is not with them, in spite of their being descendants of Abarham. Instead the Gentiles have the blessing that should be theirs, and seeing such, the Jew of the last day will be provoked to a jealousy that causes them to long for the blessing of righteousness which comes by faith.

Ultimately Paul sees a time in history where the Jews will be provoked to jealousy, and to receive the salvation blessing that they have been called as children of Abraham to experience. Right now, the vast majority of them are not walking in this blessing, because they lack faith in Christ. Here Paul says that if the Jewish rejection of Christ was powerful enough so as to effect the salvation of pagan Gentiles, then what will be the outcome of Jews finally receiving Christ? He says the Jewish reception of Jesus as Messiah will be such a powerful thing, that it will bring about the resurrection of the dead!

Indeed, a little known Biblical doctrine is that the resurrection of the dead at the end of the age is intimately tied to the conversion of the Jewish people at the end of the age. There will not be one without the other. But at the same time, this coming to life of the Jewish people unto salvation at the end of the age, will not be without going through a great and terrible death. It will not happen without the near destruction of the present day state of Israel. It will not happen without a final holocaust at the end of the age, or as Jeremiah called it, "the time of Jacob's trouble."

Where is Liongirder when you need him? lol.

Rev. Enue,
Anti-Semitism????

Please, let's just put a stop to that nonsense now.

Listen, I have no objection to the Jeremiah passage quoted above. But your quotation does not answer the question. The question is this, do you honestly believe that the Israel spoken of in that passage pertains to the modern, secular nation-state that calls itself Israel?

And if your answer is “yes,” then help me understand why.

yours,
RC

My dear Nathan,
Why once again have you resorted to sensationalism?

Why do you seem bent on having a discussion about Nazis?

Obviously you are quite worked up, but here’s a possible solution to whatever it is that has gotten you so chapped: Why not go find a bible, blow the dust off of it and help us advance this discussion?

The thrust of what we were trying to discuss was this:

Do you think that the modern secular nation-state that calls itself Israel is the same as the "Israel" mentioned in Scripture. If so why?

Thanks!
RC

Brothers,
Help me here, I'm new to all of this... is this Nathan guy always like this?

I mean to say calling me a Neo-Nazi in his last post was a little over the top wouldn't you say?

Help me on this one I thought that this was a discussion forum for brothers in Christ...

Yours,
RC

Hi RevCrabtree...

Why not go find a bible, blow the dust off of it and help us advance this discussion?

Whoa...this was uncalled for. Perhaps Brother Nathan is reacting to this very sort of rude and mean spirited rhetoric?

Do you think that the modern secular nation-state that calls itself Israel is the same as the "Israel" mentioned in Scripture.

If so why?

I hope this helps.

Greetings RevCrabtree

Yes it is a discussion forum. However this topic is very near and dear to Neil heart, just as I am sure it is to you. Perhaps that may be why his posts come across as being "worked up" as you put it. Is it possible that some of your comments to him have been over the top as well?? Please consider that some of your responses to him have not been very Christ like either. I encourage you to pray before you post, respond in love, allow Neil to have his view and convictions on the matter just as you want to have yours. Its a discussion forum to encourage and edify one another not force our own points of view on other believers.

God Bless
mj

Edit: Neil I had not read each post so when I wrote the above response I was going by RevCrabtree post. So I have edited my post to reflect your clarification so as not to further any misunderstandings.

Well I do apologize if "blowing dust off Bibles" is offensive...

It was simply intended to be a light-hearted way to ask for some biblical justification for his position… He never did offer any you know.

So forgive me for that if it was offensive, honestly that wasn't my intent.

And, thanks for your answer and for the references that you've given. I wonder if you could clearly articulate, where specifically you feel those passages are referring to Israel in terms of the modern secular nation-state that calls itself "Israel."

I'm serious about this! I'm not trying to fan the flames here…. I think that if you really examine the texts in question within the context of the unfolding history of redemption you’ll have no answers to give me.

God Bless,
RC

Nathan,
Ha!

You did call me a neo-Nazi and you went back and edited it out later... Oh, dear.

Look, honestly, I'm sorry if I offended you but the first I'd ever heard of you was when you jumped into the middle of an otherwise typical theological discussion (not a divisive topic as far as I knew) and started writing about my being British, about Neo-Nazis and a bunch of other things that I'm still confused about.

But again, I'm honestly sorry if I've caused you any distress.

God Bless,
RC

For crying out loud!

If it was all just a typo which you "which i realized LONG before your accusation, and with horror..."

why did you go on to say that you never even insinuated that I was a Neo-Nazi??? Come on man! You can't have it both ways!

Now.... I've got a little bombshell for you to think about. Remember how you wrongly assumed I was British... and then went on and on about it? Well, what if I told you that you are more gentile than I am (judging from you earlier post about your grandmother)?

Wouldn't that be a laugh!

yours,
RC

It's exchanges like these here that grieve my heart and make me wish I had not posted a comment on this thread.

Brothers if ye bite and devour one another take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. Gal. 5.15.

Neil, I'm not sure if any of your reaction is the result of the one post I made earlier. It would grieve me if you misconstrued or misunderstood anything I said.

Brethren, "play the ball not the man".... keep on subject and try not take it personal. I know it is difficult and for natural reasons we feel much for some subjects. ....Being reviled, we bless (1Co 4:12 NKJ)

This thread will be locked for more personal "attacks", accusations and the rest. But i know we always have the option of bringing the aroma of Christ into any situation, and trust we will here also...

So... what have we learned from all this?

RC

Jimmy

Today I came up with this to ask you, [i]I am interested in understanding how for 2,000 years God has blinded Israel but yet according to what has been said in this thread, He’ll suddenly save all Israel (only those living at that time, correct?), at the end of time.... while the Jews from 0 A.D. to present that have rejected Christ have gone to hell?

I’m not ashamed or afraid to admit that I do not understand this at all and thought perhaps if someone knew a whole lot more than I, maybe they could share their knowledge. AND I’d like to add that, “I trust God that He is just and that He knows what He’s doing.”

And I’m going to be honest, I’ve always been somewhat pro-Israel and didn’t really start thinking about it until my son (a libertarian), started telling me Israel shouldn’t be the ONLY country over there protected and yet they are!! [/i]

And after getting home from work and reading more from this thread, I beginning to wonder if there is really no pro-Israel because since the Bible does says, “For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all” (Rom 11.32).

I’m just thinking out loud here, if the Jews that have rejected Christ in the last 2,000 have all gone to hell like the gentiles then we shouldn’t be pro-Israel at all. What do you think?

Do any of my meanderings make a tab bit of sense? (huge grin)

God bless you all!!

So... what have we learned from all this?
_________________________________________

That as followers of our Lord Jesus we should be praying for those who are lost to come to the Lord no matter where they are from. I pray for Israel to see all that the Lord has for them:)

God Bless
mj

I am interested in understanding how for 2,000 years God has blinded Israel but yet according to what has been said in this thread, He’ll suddenly save all Israel (only those living at that time, correct?), at the end of time.... while the Jews from 0 A.D. to present that have rejected Christ have gone to hell?

I'll be happy to try and answer your question to the best of my ability, Lord willing. For a very full treatment on the subject, I would highly commend to you the sermons available on here by Art Katz. He spoke on this subject many times over the course of 30+ years of ministry, and is perhaps the greatest spokesman of this view.

Basically, the best way to understand these things is to understand it primarily through the lens of the covenant promises God established with Abraham, concerning his descendants and their inheriting the land of promise. These promises are not incidental, but rather, fundamental to all of redemptive history. All of Scripture is built upon the promises made to Abraham in Genesis 12:1-3.

Indeed, one might say Genesis 1-11 is the preface to the rest of the Scriptures. In it we learn of the creation of the world, and its subsequent fall and God's judgments upon a fallen world. But Genesis 12 starts a radical shift and begins a new story: the story of the gospel message, and how God plans on redeeming His fallen creation. Though not spelled out in intimate detail, the apostle Paul recognized in God's promises to Abraham the basic gospel message (Galatians 3:8):

Now the LORD said to Abram, "Go forth from your country, And from your relatives And from your father's house, To the land which I will show you; And I will make you a great nation, And I will bless you, And make your name great; And so you shall be a blessing; And I will bless those who bless you, And the one who curses you I will curse. And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed." - (Genesis 12:1-3 NASB)

This is a very familiar passage of Scripture, but it is one that we must not be so quick to gloss over. It is something we need to work into our hearts and minds as deeply as we can. For this is the gospel of Jesus Christ. This is God’s blueprint for redemptive history, and these promises serve as the narrative upon which the rest of the Scriptures are written upon. Any theological system that does not have this passage as its bedrock, is ultimately deficient.

In this passage, we learn that God’s plan is to reverse the curse that has been introduced into the world through the fall of man. In it God says to Abraham that He is going to give Abraham and his descendants a certain geographical piece of land as an inheritance (as confirmed in later passages), and that through this land of promise, and through Abraham, all of the world will enjoy God’s blessing. God wants to again bless His creation, instead of letting it be destroyed by the curse. But this blessing will come through the mediation of Abraham. In him is the source of all God’s blessing for the entire world.

Of course, the promises made to Abraham ultimately concern Jesus Christ (Galatians 3:16). But though it chiefly concerns Christ, the promises are not exclusively concerning Him, as He cannot be considered apart from the “great nation” that the promises identify Him with. Wherein lies part of the problem in the Scriptures. The “great nation” that is to issue from Abraham, that is to be a source of universal blessing for the entire world, ultimately fails time and time again to be the nation God has called it to be, so that it might function in such a role. Instead of being blessed so that it might be a blessing, the nation that issues from Abraham ultimately partakes of the curse that is devouring all of creation, and in the process, becomes the opposite of what God would have it become.

For God has called the nation that issues out of Abraham to serve as “a kingdom of priests” (Exodus 19:6), so that through it, God might dispense His blessings upon all of creation. But instead of fulfilling this role, the nation time and time again turns its back on God. It fails to live up to its calling, and be the “holy nation” (Exodus 19:6) that God has called it and created it to be. You see, what many people fail to realize is that national, physical, and ethnic Israel has always been called by God to be a holy and spiritual people. And though they have always failed to fully embrace this call, it is a calling which remains.

Why does it remain? Because, “the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.” (Romans 11:29) No matter how much Israel may run from its calling, it will never run so far as to escape God’s calling and purpose for its existence. Why? Because God made a promise to Abraham to bless all of creation through the nation that would be born of him, and it is a promise that God will not take back, no matter how much man may kick against it. God’s purposes will not be thwarted, they will come to pass.

But these promises cannot come to pass so long as the nation God has uniquely called fails to be the people God has called it to be. But, in spite of their continual and present failures, God will prove Himself faithful to the promises of His covenant that He made with Abraham, and will cause His people to become the very people they must become, all that His good word may come to pass, and all of the nations of the earth might be blessed.

Because God is a faithful God who keeps His covenant, we can have full assurance that God fully intends to keep His word, and will cause Israel to become the people God has called it to become. Thus God promises that one day, “all Israel will be saved.” (Romans 11:26) And so all of Israel at the end of the age MUST come to salvation, so that God may release all His blessings to all of the world, just as He promised He would do in Abraham, through the Messiah and the nation that would come from Him. Indeed, Paul teaches that their national salvation at the end of the age is such a powerful event, that the blessing released from their conversion brings about the resurrection of the dead. (Romans 11:15)

But, so far as history is concerned, Israel has yet to come to such a national salvation. At the present time, as it has existed throughout all of the history of Israel, there has only been a small faithful remnant of believers from that nation. Largely, the nation has failed to ever live up to its calling. Instead, it has rebelled from being the people God has called it to be. As a result, in Deuteronomy 28-32, God established some “checks” with the nation, known as the “covenant curses,” to continually remind the nation of its rebellion, and failure to embrace its calling. These curses are ultimately designed by God to remind His people that they have strayed from being the people He has called them to be, so that they might turn back to Him.

The primary emphasis of the covenant curses is that Israel would not know peace, and would not enjoy the land God promised to Abraham. Instead, they would know plague, famine, war, and ultimately, exile from the land. And such has been what Israel has continued to experience for 2,700 years, in varying degrees, as it has turned its back continually on God.

In 722 BC, the Assyrians destroyed the northern kingdom of Israel. In 586 BC, the Babylonians destroyed the southern kingdom of Judah. 70 years later, a remnant of the exiles were allowed to return and resettle the land. However, Israel had failed to learn its lesson, and the prophets again saw the nation being removed from the land. And after the rejection of Christ, in 70 AD the Romans came and once again sent the nation into exile, where it has and still continues to largely wander and be destroyed, especially at the hands of Hitler.

Though the nation has in part, resettled itself in the land, but so long as it lives apart from the Lord who has given them the land as a gift, they live constantly under the shadow of judgment, and the curses found in the covenant. All of this, mind you, is part of God’s design, as His chastising hand is at work to ultimately break the strength of the nation, so that it would stop trusting in itself, but would rather trust in the Lord. Therefore, there still remains great trouble for the nation, as the nation must ultimately be brought to death, before it can experience resurrection life, just as the prophets have foretold.

So, where does that leave us as Christians today? Should we have a “pro-Israel” stance? I guess that ultimately depends on what you mean by “pro-Israel.” If it is the sentimental mushy nonsense you hear coming from the lips of men like John Hagee, you can forget it. Such theologies are pushing for the success and continuation of a nation that is living according to the strong arm of the flesh, and ultimately living in rejection of their Messiah. God wants no such thing, and indeed, is determined to destroy anything that might give them a fleshly confidence—as if they could live in His land without Him.

But we should be “pro-Israel” in another sense. A sense that is ultimately prophetic in its scope. By being “pro-Israel” I do not imagine cheerleading for the carnal national state that exists at the present time. If I did that, I would be rooting with the nation in its rebellion against God, and supporting its injustices. Rather, I’m “pro-Israel” in the sense that I understand what God is looking to accomplish in redemptive history, from a prophetic standpoint, and how God is calling me to identify with Israel in light of that.

When taking this vantage point, I recognize that the present day nation is ultimately doomed to suffer another holocaust. The present nation is doomed to suffer another exile. An exile that will yet again cause them to be sifted through all nations. An exile which will ultimately cause Jews to be in flight across the globe. And it is while they are in exile that God will call you and I as Christians, to extend His mercy to them, so that they might ultimately encounter the Lord in the wilderness of the nations, and there meet with Him face to face. For it is in that place they will find the Lord, and come to experience the salvation He has predestined they experience, so that they might become the people God has called them to be, so that all the world might be blessed.

So… this is much longer than I intended to write, but, I hope it helps answer your questions. This is a very difficult topic to wrestle with, and I am more than glad to help you wrestle with it. But ultimately I must encourage you to do as I did, and look to the Lord, and diligently search the Scriptures to see if these things are true. And by search, I mean you must absolutely dig. It took me about a year of reading over and over again, the writings of the prophets, and listening to a lot of sermons, and asking a lot of questions, before I finally started to wrap my head around this stuff. Then one day, I believe the Lord caused it all to click.

I would also like to ask a heart-felt "WHAT????" to the previous quote.

Also, I'm just trying to find some closure here because I'm still farly upset about some of the tone of things yesterday...

So here's what I'm hoping that we as bible believing people can all agree on, that regardless of how we personally view the whole secluar nation state of Israel, we all recognize that the Church of Christ has - at the very least - been brought into "Israel," i.e.,the covenant people of God. And this by faith alone...

We can find common ground on this right?

yours,
RC

Jimmy, are you teaching that God has purposes for natural Israel outside the Church of Jesus Christ? I think you are-- and I think it's because Art Katz teaches that.

And if you are, it's a serious error, an extremely serious error, to teach this.

For God has called the nation that issues out of Abraham to serve as “a kingdom of priests” (Exodus 19:6), so that through it, God might dispense His blessings upon all of creation.

No, Jimmy. Well... yes, if you understand who is the "nation" that comes out of Abraham, the nation that is the "seed" of Abraham.

"But YE are a chosen generation (Gk. race) a royal priesthood, an holy nation..." (1 Pt. 2.9).

Who is the New Covenant apostle Peter speaking of here?

He includes believing Gentiles along with believeing Jews in this kingdom of priests, this holy nation, even all those that God has called out of darkness into His marvellous light...

"Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God..." (1 Pt. 2.10).

It's through THE CHURCH, dear brother, that God intends to dispense His blessings upon all of creation.

the Church of Christ has - at the very least - been brought into "Israel," i.e.,the covenant people of God. And this by faith alone...

That's clear to me, RC. The Church doesn't "replace" Israel. The church IS the Israel of God, and includes first believing Jews (for it was with believing Jews that the Church was first started) and then also believing Gentiles.

Thread closed.