Pentecostal Baptist

I was curious as to if there is such an animal as a Pentecostal Baptist. :) I am starting to look at what I truly believe and am starting to understand both schools of Doctrine and is it logical and possible to believe both? Something that my head pastor avoids is Baptist doctrines because of the "Once Saved Always Saved" Theology. Any comments or thoughts on this would be appreciated.

God Bless,
Matthew

Matthew,

Are you talking about doctrine? I humbly admit that I don't know anything about the doctrine side of things.

But I have known 2 couples and six formerly baptist who have received the baptism of the Holy Spirit this past year alone! Several years ago we all attended the same church; I don't know that any of them consider themselves of the a pentecostalist or a baptist anymore! I would say they are "Jesusist" now!! LOL As it should be!!

God bless you!!

Southern Baptists are officially against the Pentecostal belief in speaking in tongues. You can be excommunicated from the SBC for doing such. I have known of people who have had such happen to them.

I don't know that any of them consider themselves of the a pentecostalist or a baptist anymore! I would say they are "Jesusist" now!! LOL As it should be!!

I agree whole heartily I am a Christian and Child of God.

You can be excommunicated from the SBC for doing such.

That is interesting I didn't know that, but that seems pretty extreme do you know the difference between their views of the Baptism as oppose to Pentecostals interpretation? Thanks for the information!

Hum well brother Frank I believe I am somewhat a part of that Bapticostal movement then. I think what I am seeing is that I have listened to a lot of Baptist preaching on here and their speaking truth so it's kind of hard to disagree with that. I tried to have my pastor listen to Paul Washer's Ten Indictments of the Church and he listened to it but completely disregarded it because Paul Washer is baptist. Kind of disappointing but I understand what Paul Washer is talking about and see his point of view and can't really disagree with it because it's truth.

I too have a number of friends who consider themselves bapticostals. I have even heard of churches of this kind. I am sure it the acceptability will vary with the bent of the gathering.

Matthew,

There is extreme bigotry on both sides. God has so graciously brought me through many (bad and misplaced) attitudes in my Christian walk. Early on, I was like your pastor except WORSE, if it even 'smelled' Baptist, I would totally disregard it or the person, "they couldn't possibly have anything to say to benefit me." Yeah, makes me cringe today too. It's only the Lord's compassion that I was not consumed in my own religious bigotry.

When I went to the church where I met the "baptists" (lol), it didn't say baptist anywhere on any piece of literature or I can tell you that I would not have went back the second sunday and that was just in 2001!! I went to that church for six months before I found out that the leadership adhered to the southern baptist convention but it was too late; the Lord had allowed to fall in love with the people. Slowly they learned I was of the gifts-are-for-today persuasion and it was too late for them as well!! (huge grin)

In that time, the Lord has done a great work in my life and attitude about those of different beliefs (praise His name!) and I can now see what the Lord wants to do for both denominations... if God could get "religious people" past their prejudices and BOTH sets of denominations past their church dogma - God could and would work miracles around this world but as it is, He only gets to work within the confines of the box each of them have Him in!! Sometimes He gets out and it seems to be a little more often! Haha

I am not too sure about a Pentecostal Baptist, but there are Reformed Charismatics; I myself being one. There are prominent Evangelicals out there who believe the same such as Piper, Grudem, Virgo, and Mahaney.

During the late 60's and early 70's there was a revival that took place among many saints in some of the mainline denominational churches. Many Christians were being filled with the Holy Spirit and manifesting spiritual gifts which was tolerated up to a point.

I was saved as a Catholic who got mixed up with some Catholic charismatics in the early 70's. At the prayer meetings that I attended there was a priest that was full of the Holy Spirit that was preaching Jesus Christ. Also the Full Gospel Businessmen were having meetings in the Lake Charles Civic Center and there were Spirit filled believers from just about every denomination that attended these meetings. It didn't take long for my wife and I to see the many contradictions of the teachings in the Catholic Church to the Word of God, so we began to attend an Assembly of God Church that attracted many young people that had come out of the hippie movement that was going on at that time. We loved the older Christians that were already there, and although they were put to the test, they loved and accepted us. At that time I was praying with a charismatic Catholic priest and several others every Friday morning, and this priest was invited to minister at the AOG church. The mainline denominations could only take this for so long, so that many of their Charismatic leaders and members were given the left foot of fellowship. Some stayed in their dead denominations because they saw this move of God as a revival of the denominations, which never happened.

Jesus prayed "“I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. (John 17:20-24).

If the church would come together in the unity of the Spirit there would be a great harvest of souls take place.

God is wanting to bring His Church into the unity of the faith.

"until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ." (Ephesians 4:13).

Mike

That is interesting I didn't know that, but that seems pretty extreme do you know the difference between their views of the Baptism as oppose to Pentecostals interpretation?

The SBC views the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as one and the same thing. Pentecostals believe them to be two distinct events, though leaving the possibility they may occur at the same time in some people. Both groups agree you receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit at conversion. But Pentecostals believe that there is an experience you can have, post conversion, where you receive an endument of power for the purpose of witnessing. This experience is known as the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

A common analogy given by Pentecostals to help understand this view is the idea of a glass being filled with water. This represents the indwelling of the Spirit. The baptism of the Spirit, they would say, is when you are "filled to the overflow," so that the water continues to overflow the brim of the glass.

"Classical Pentecostalism" teaches that when you receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit, "the initial physical evidence" that confirms to you and others that you received this experience is that you will speak in an unknown tongue. Not all Pentecostals adhere to this doctrine, though, historically speaking, this has generally been the case. Some (like me) say any demonstration of power from the Spirit, be it tongues, prophecy, etc., will suffice as evidence of having received the endument of power that accompanies being baptized in the Holy Spirit.

I hope this helps you understand.

I'm a SBC pastor, who believes the gifts of the spirit are for today, since we are still living in the N.T. This view is split 50/50 in the church I pastor.

While each church is automonus and the North American Missions Borad passed a ruling a few years back that they would not ordain missionaries who have a private prayer languguage and you have to sign a statement saying you do not.

Even the current Baptist Faith and Message is not excepted by all of our churches. Becasue of the views of women's role in ministry and the views of grace.

That may all be TMI.

So back to the orginal post. I know many southern baptists who have a private prayer langauge do not do so within the congregration. I think this has much to do with God and less to do with the individual sinc, God is about unity among his belivers.

Pentecostals believe them to be two distinct events, though leaving the possibility they may occur at the same time in some people

They are two events...

a person can be a believer in Jesus and have been baptized in water and still have NOT received the Holy Spirit.

...let's look at what the bible says:

Acts 8:14-17 states:

14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 [b]For as yet He had fallen upon none of them.[/b] [u]They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.[/u]

17 [b][u]Then they laid hands on them[/u][/b], and they received the Holy Spirit.

There you have it, you can be a water baptized believer in Jesus and NOT have received the Holy Spirit. There is an infilling of the Holy Spirit that happens AFTER conversion and water baptism, and sometimes before water baptism as in the case of Cornelius and those that were with him. At least according the bible that I read.

So much for the false doctrine of cessationism.

Having said that, I do not believe that every one will speak in tongues as evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

The Apostle Paul points this out:

1 Corinthians 12:29-31 states:

29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way.

A person will absolutely KNOW when they have received the baptism of the Holy Spirit...this is an experience like no other.

The Apostle Paul writes (pay attention to verse 16):

Romans 8:14-16 (New King James Version)

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

He bears witness to our spirit that we are His...this witness I know and hereby testify that this is a very real experience of the Power of God in my life.

btw

I am a Bapticostal if there is such a thing, not that a Christian should have such a title or denomination. Denominations are going to be done away with, and it's coming soon, and it will be the Lord who does it.

I was water baptized at Olivet Baptist Church, on Easter Sunday 1981. I left the Baptist Church by the hand of God; I could not remain with those whose hearts were not on fire and who denied the gifts of the Holy Spirit...I had outgrown them. God brought me through many trials, and I am forever grateful for His mercy in my life. I am most grateful for the power and the witness of the Holy Spirit that was given to me; He saved my spiritual life and has given me a lively hope!

I was baptized in a Baptist Church and hold many of the Pentecostal tenents and attend a Pentecostal Church now.

Regardless was the traditions of the denominations say, scripture is the only safe authority.

Any cessastionist would have to twist 1 Corinthians 12+14.
Any staunch Pentecostalist would have to twist scripture to explain 1 Corinthians 12:29-31.

The gifts of the Holy Spirit are not a luxury or a denomination divider but an absolute neccessity for the survival of the church, especially under persecution.

I can understand that in a 2 tiered church divided between pulpit and pew with professional preachers that only teach the doctrine they learned in seminary rather than demonstrating the life of Christ the operation gifts of the spirit would definitely be an irritation.

The true operation of the gifts needs a proper understanding and functioning of the body of Christ as well headship and presbyteral authority less they end up in chaos. I have seen very little of this even in the best pentecostal circles - as for now. My great desire to that type of a church in operation before I die.

The gifts of the Holy Spirit are not a luxury or a denomination divider but an absolute neccessity for the survival of the church, especially under persecution.

Thank-you for that, and I absolutely agree!

My great desire to that type of a church in operation before I die.

I believe you shall! I had a vision about his very thing...and I earnestly desire that it comes to pass soon:

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=31212&forum=48&9]Grand Old Mansion[/url]

John Piper and the congregation where he preaches, Bethlehem Baptist Church, are continuationist and charismatic in their pneumatology.

Likewise, Grace Community Church in San Antonio, Texas subscribe to the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith and believe in the gifts and baptism of the Holy Spirit. Their pastor is Tim Conway, and they frequently post videos on their website, Illbehonest.com.

Paul Washer is also a continuationist, and he claims (or has claimed in the past) to be a Southern Baptist. It's a wonder that he hasn't been kicket out of that denomination yet.

On second thought...

Thought I'd share my observations from here in Australia:

1. Having spoken to Baptist leaders on cessation vs continuation, the difficulty is that since the Australian Baptist Union's faith statement is silent on the issue, churches can go either way; whether it be the church itself or the pastor who leads it.
e.g., the local baptist church in my district went through a transition phase where the new pastor held to Wesleyen-Holiness, specifically, the view that one's relationship with the Holy Spirit is Conversion>Sanctification>Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Candidates for Bible college were free to choose from the Brisbane Baptist seminary or any of the neighbouring AoG colleges. Eventually this pastor left to accept another pastorate in another state and the current pastor is conservative evangelical.

2. Even in non-pentecostal churches, in Australia it is next to impossible to ignore the former's influence in Christian media, more specifically, the music ministries of churches like Hillsong in Sydney. When non-pentecostal churches try to emulate Hillsong's particular flavour of praise and worship, they tend to pick up other aspects as well.

That being said, here in Brisbane it would seem that no two Baptist churches are the same. On one hand you have fellowships in the suburbs that are practically no different to a contemporary AoG church, at the other end of the spectrum you have others like the City Tabernacle that are highly conservative if not traditional in proceedings.

I was curious as to if there is such an animal as a Pentecostal Baptist.

It seems we are helplessly bound to viewing Truth in terms of denominationalism.

If I come into the outer court to the laver and am "baptised" there, can I write up my defining creed; I have now arrived at the fulness of Truth? Must I not continue into the Holy Place... and then into the Holiest of all?

Or viewed from another perspective, since when are the Passover (which is more or less the realm of the baptist experience) and Pentecost mutually exclusive?

And whatever will we do when in the purposes of God He fulfills the feast of Tabernacles in the church?

It was never God's intention that there be in the earth so-called "Baptist" churches, or even "Pentecostal" churches... or any denomination for that matter. That's all a testimony to our failure to abide in the River of God and continue moving forward with Him.

Amen. It should be noted, however, that which constitutes Pentecostalism on the global scale is more of a movement than denomination. If memory serves correct, the revised international pentecostal & charismatic encyclopedia estimates there are over 100 million Pentecostals in the world. The largest Pentecostal denomination, the Assembles of God, only has about 12 million enrolled in its numbers. The other Pentecostal denominations, at best, have a few million. The movement is either largely independent, or transcends denominational barriers.

Hi All,

I currently go to a Baptist church, but have gone to a number of Pentecostal churches over the years. One thing I've noticed about the Pentecostal churches I've previously attended or have visited, is a moving away from an emphasis on the gifts of the Holy Spirit. ( I suspect this is part of a larger trend among mainstream 'Pentecostal churches' )

When I first began attending a Pentecostal church, at the time I was starting out in university ( in the late 80s), it was a church where frequently prophecies were given. These seemed to me to be genuine messages from God. Sometimes they were very simple, such as when this older lady Ruth came up to me after the service and said in a very gentle and yet impassioned way, "Do not turn to the left or to the right".

I'll never forget one time after a service, when a man named Frank, who frequently prophesied in the church, approached my friend. By his own admission, my friend was not a Christian, and had attended church with his parents, just to make them happy. When Frank talked to my friend, he told my friend that he had attended church all his life, but needed to come into a relationship with Christ. I watched my friend's reaction, as these words were spoken to him. I saw tears flow down his face. (This seemed very out of character for my friend, and I felt that he had been genuinely touched by God through this prophecy/word of knowledge.)

My first encounter with the gifts of the Holy Spirit, was when I was around 12. At the time, my family was attending a church which did not endorse the idea that the gifts of the Spirit are for today. On this day, my Mom and sister and I were praying together at our home, for a friend of my Mom's to be healed. A man was visiting us, who was a Pentecostal evangelist, and was the son of a lady who went to our church.

At a certain point during our time of prayer, this man laid his hands on my head and on my sisters head, and we began to speak in tongues. (We had never heard that there was such a thing). Incidentally, a few weeks prior to this, my Mom had prayed, "Lord, please send someone to baptise my children with the Holy Spirit".)

By sharing this experience, I am not suggesting that the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is necessarily connected with the gift of tongues, but am just relating what happened to me, while a young man. In this vein, I find it interesting that during the Hebrides revival, Duncan Campbell says that trances occurred and likely words of knowledge, but speaking in tongues was not in evidence.

I believe though, that the gifts of the Spirit are meant for today. Sadly, they are often misused, or fleshly manifestations are paraded as if they were the gifts. I believe the gifts, when present, are accompanied by the fruit of the Spirit. After all, the Holy Spirit is a 'holy' spirit. He is a gentleman, if I may put it that way.

In Jesus,
John

One thing I've noticed about the Pentecostal churches I've previously attended or have visited, is a moving away from an emphasis on the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

This is, in part, because many Pentecostal churches are becoming increasingly institutionalized, centralized around a one man show. I've been attending Pentecostal churches for about 7 or 8 years now. In that time, I've heard maybe about a dozen prophetic utterances at best... many of which I was the one actually giving, and to have a message in tongues given with a corresponding interpretation, probably about five or six times. So far at the large Pentecostal church that I have been attending for about 3 months now, with several thousand people, I've yet to see anybody flow in the gifts of the Spirit on a Sunday morning. Then again, if you wanted to, you would have to bring the service to a grinding halt, as the service flows from one part to the next without any interruption or waiting on God whatsoever.

Unless the Pentecostal movement in America re-establishes Christ alone as the head of the Church, and refuses to do nothing apart from the promptings of the Holy Spirit, then the nails will be finally put into the coffin of this movement, which, while rapidly spreading in the rest of the world, is dying in America.

The book by the following title is offered free of charge at this web address:
http://graceandtruthenterprises.homestead.com/CMBooks.html#

"Spiritual Baptisms and Gifts"

With biblical forceps, this book extracts all the teeth out of neo-pentecostalism. "The author has a keen insight into our great biblical teaching about which many people have become confused. To read this book will give you a new insight to a truth that will transform your life and church. I heartily recommend it. "Dr. Jaroy Weber, President, Southern Baptist Convention (1974-1976).

You may be surprised by what you read in this book if you think that the Southern Baptist Convention is strictly cessasionist across the board.

It's an excellent easy to read little book. It is well written, well balanced and written in an irenic spirit.

Worth the read. Worth the time. And free of charge...which is the gospel way.

I do hope many of you will order it.

Most Pentecsotal Churches now never hear a message in tounges with interpretation nor a prophetic word (also exhortation) or word of knowledge. There are many reasons for this,

My older brother was saved and filled with the Spirit during a small touch of revival that broke out in the 70's. It was such a move that he began to preach when he was but 12 years old. He has a saying that is always striking to me: "I was born in the fire, but all we want to do today is settle for is the smoke."

I think there is a lot of truth to this, and is definitely a statement worth considering. It's sad, but we have a tendency for settling for second best. I call it "the doctrine of the next best thing." We are happy to settle for slick programs and services, even if they are devoid of God's manifest presence, all so that we might have a nice respectable church that our friends and family members enjoy.

All this talk of Petecostal, Baptist, Bapticostal....I suspect that God is not particularly impressed with any of them.

In my limited experience, these "denomiational doctrines" seem to be the crutch we use to hold up our "churches" in the absence of God's manifest presence. When the presence of God overwhelms us, everything else is pretty much worthless. Just my opinion.

John 4:23-24
23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
NKJV

Matt 15:8-9
8 "These people draw near to Me with their mouth,
And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'"
NKJV

These are just some of the reasons, but the scattering of the sheep from Evangelicalism and pentecostalism has brought togeter strange bed-fellows, but thise who Love the Lord with all their hearts.

Some may call it the rise of the Remnant.

They come from every concievable background and have been flowing out and away from the above mentioned denominations. There is new wine coming and it will require a new wineskin. The tearing down of the old structures has begun.............Frank

I see this too. I claim to be neither a pentecostal nor baptist, but a come out from among them and be ye separate.

It's what I believe about what the Lord has shown me... about what going to come to pass. I posted it here on this forum and at your website too:

http://scottishwarriors.wordpress.com/a-coming-reformation/#comment-1008

Recently I decided to give up my title as being Pentecostal. Though I am Pentecostal in my doctrine, I prefer simply to be known as a Christian. Why, after all, should I put an emphasis on my doctrine of the Holy Spirit over that of my other doctrines? Whatever pet doctrines I may hold, I am still ultimately a Christian.

If somebody presses me as to what church I go, I will tell them it's denominational affiliation. But honestly, when I was searching for a church recently, I wasn't dogmatic about finding one that claimed to be Pentecostal. In fact, feeling a little burned out from Pentecostalism, I was hoping God would take me somewhere that was simply evangelical/non-denominational. But, alas, He brought me back to another Pentecostal church.

"Recently I decided to give up my title as being Pentecostal. Though I am Pentecostal in my doctrine, I prefer simply to be known as a Christian"

Jimmy, I am with you on this brother because if Pentecostal would mean being baptized with the Holy Spirit then that would be all right, but too many today relate to being Pentecostal with the denomination, in which there are unscriptural teachings concerning salvation and baptism.

Some do not see the necessity of being baptized with the Holy Spirit because they believe that they got it all when they were saved. On the other hand some believe that when they were baptized with the Holy Spirit that they have got it all. Both views are wrong. The question is: "are we filled with the Holy Spirit today"? The Word of God implies that being filled with the Spirit is an ongoing, continuous filling. "Be being filled" (Ephesians 5:18).

Mike

The question is: "are we filled with the Holy Spirit today"? The Word of God implies that being filled with the Spirit is an ongoing, continuous filling. "Be being filled" (Ephesians 5:18).

Leonard Ravenhill once said: "There is no such thing as one filling with the Holy Ghost that is going to last you from here to eternity."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BeO-iCqxvI

The baptism of the Holy Ghost is just as real, and just as tangible and just as necessary in today's church as it was in the beginning. God is not a cessationist! ...and for that I am truly grateful!

I appreciate the comments and input that I recieved from this thread, and I am more overjoyed by the fact that I am in agreement with a great majority of you. The Lord has actually placed on my heart that I shall pledge no allegance to Creed, Denomination, Group, People, Doctrine, Nation, or Man, my soul Allegance is to Christ Jesus the Son of the Living God and Lord of my heart.

I was corrected greatly on the whole denominational battles but the Lord showed me that every man believes what they believe for a reason and so with that in mind I must respect what they believe, I don't have to agree but I do have to respect. My main goal when speaking with someone that has different views as me is to at least understand where they are coming from. I believe that when persecution comes denominational barriers will have very little weight as to who is your brother and sister in Christ.

I believe in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit as the Pentecostals do but I am in the camp that doesn't nessecarily sees Tongues as physical evidence, to me the only real trust worthy evidence is a Changed and Repentive Heart and life.

Something that the Lord also placed on my heart is Home Churches and I believe that we will see this more as we come even closer to this persecution that is coming.

Thanks again for the great response to this it has definitely been encouraging and enlightening.

God Bless,
Matthew