I have a friend who is in big time trouble

Hi

I have a friend who is in big trouble. His name is Sean and we have been friends for the last year and a half. He is a christian and like a brother to me. Last Friday he said he needed to talk to me that it was really important. I was in a hurry because Jase was coming in so he said he would email me. I got his email Saturday morning and he is really upset. Apparently he has been dating a girl from his church and there is no easy way to say it, she is pregnant. I was so shocked when he told me. I never thought he would get messed up with that kind of thing, he always seem so on fire for the Lord. He said she is two months along and very frightened. He did bring up abortion(she is considering) but from what he said he does not want her to have one. His girlfriend is only nineteen and just finished high school last year(Sean is twenty two) so she is terrified of what her parents are going to do and how she will handle this? He asked me what I thought he should do? He asked if he should marry her? I don't know what to tell him to do. I know he can not let her get an abortion. I know he has to be a man and take responsibility. I know he has to repent to the Lord. He needs to apologies to her and her parents for allowing this to happen. But should he marry this girl. He did say he is in love with her(not sure how she feels)

Both of these two claim to be Christians and yet this happens, do you think my friend is deceiving himself?

in Him
ellie

When you know what is right and needs to be
done; failing to do it is sin. Tell him
what you know. It is his responsibility
to face her parents and offer marriage!!
Decisions should be made in light of what's
best for the unborn child !!

Ellie,

Sean is in big time trouble - glad he knows it.

Abortion should never, ever be considered an option. Abortion will intensify the regrets Sean will live with if the girl decides to do so. And legally he can't do a thing to stop it if the girl decides to go ahead with it.

May I suggest that a baby is the wrong reason to get married. The couple is starting off on the wrong foot. If a couple marries under these circumstances it will undermine the probability of them ever having a stable marriage and will likely end up in the divorce courts. It is rare that it does not happen this way.

I would strongly urge the girl to adopt the baby out because a baby deserves to be in a two parent home. I suggest she go to Bethany Christian Services for counseling. They are very helpful.

And you better tell Sean in no uncertain terms he better get his mind, spirit, soul cleaned up by the Blood of Jesus and keep his hands off of women!

Blessings,
ginnyrose

Although I don't like to jump in a give advise on these types of situations about people I don't know, I find it shocking that it has been said he should not marry the girl.

Who's selfish life are considering here? The boy who now has a child on the way or the girl who's future is now forever changed? Surely it should be the baby and the girl that he should lay his life down for!

As for being unequally yoked, it's a bit late for that! He is already yoked and will always have that tie with both the baby and the girl.

I agree with the previous poster who said:

When you know what is right and needs to be
done; failing to do it is sin. Tell him
what you know. It is his responsibility
to face her parents and offer marriage!!
Decisions should be made in light of what's
best for the unborn child !!

So I say he should do the decent thing and marry the girl and allow God turn turn this around for them.

Hi

I went and had tea with my friend and I took Sara fiance(Brad) with me because I did not think that I(a female) should be talking to Sean about all this with out my husband there. It just did not feel right. Anyway Sean is really upset, he was not defensive at all when Brad talked to him. He admitted that he was in sin and that it was his fault for allowing things to get carried away. I asked about his girlfriend, her name is Lori. He said that they had not been dating for a long time only about 6 months but that his feelings for her were very intense from the beginning. Lori did tell Sean that she loved him. He said that they had talked a little about marriage but not in a serious way. Sean does not want her to have an abortion, he asked if I would speak with her(I am going to meet her this evening) Sean said that her dad is really strict and that is why she is so afraid and thinking of getting an abortion. Lori told him her dad will never for give her for this. I think that Sean really wants to marry her and I do think he is broken over this sin, but I am not sure about Lori?? At this point I left Brad to share with Sean, I thought that best. Even though I know Sean and love him like a brother I think it best for him to talk to another guy about some of the struggles he was dealing with that got him to where he is now.

As for marriage Brad did suggest that since that seems to be on Sean heart to marry Lori that they not rush into anything, that they come together and meet with some of the older brothers and sisters at his church for some counseling before making any mistakes. He did tell Sean no matter what even if Lori chooses not to marry him, and she does have the baby he has to commit to being there for that child.

I understand why some say they should get married but having almost had my own marriage end in a divorce I think that they need to pray about this.

Anyhow thanks guys for the help

in Him
Ellie

Quote:

"I find it shocking that it has been said he should not marry the girl."

The reason for this counsel is because most people who start out their marriage like this end up in divorce. And that is sin. Marriage is for life, like it or not.

I think the counsel Brad and Ellie are giving is right on. And Biblical.

ginnyrose

Hi
I did get to meet with Lori and she is really upset.
I think she is dealing with a lot of guilt and disapointment
in herself. I do believe she loves the Lord and Sean
but she is confused. We talked and although the thought
of abortion came up after listening to her(Not sure Sean was
listening) I do not think she would kill this baby. She is
afraid of her parents disapproval. She is worried
they will throw her out of the house. I assuried her Sean
loves her and he would never let that happen, but
even more so the Lord loves her and He would
never abandon her. I do think she does want to marry
Sean but wants to make sure it not just because of
the baby. Sara has a friend who works with young
women to help them either keep their babies or help them
through the adoption process. We spoke with her and she is a
strong Christian she is going with Lori and Sean to talk with her parents later today. Lori seemed to feel more at ease knowing she has real support around her.
Brad said that both Lori and Sean have agreed to
meet with some of the elders from Sara church also.

I know they started things out wrong and outside
of Gods will but I do belive they have made the
right choices and still have hope of being a strong
family in the Lord. I really think having the body of
Christ come together for this couple to help them has
made such a difference. They both have strong support
around them to help them walk in what the Lord
has for them.

In Him

Greetings Frank

My testimony is somewhat similar to yours except that I was the one pregnant:) You are right in saying that they have a ruff road ahead of them, but I think that with the love of other believers and Jesus on their side they will be fine. Stories like this make me smile because it just shows what the Lord can do in a life. The world tells us that there is no hope and yet through Jesus we see and know there is always a way, there is always an answer:)

Thank you for sharing Frank
God Bless
mj

I can relate very well with Sean and Lori's story, since its basically my story. I was 19 and my wife was 18 when she became pregnant. We dated only about 3 months and decided that we wanted to be married not only because we loved each other but because we believed it was the best thing for the baby.

My mom and dad were disappointed but since I was an Adult and the damage was done they were very supportive in helping us. My wife's parents weren't very happy at all and I was completely shunned as a son in law, after 2 years of marriage I am just now mending those wounds my decisions caused. For those on the verge of making the same decisions I would advise take up some self control and wait for marriage. I am very happy with my marriage and wife but disappointed in the manner it happened. I will be praying for Sean and Lori and their unborn baby.

God Bless,
Matthew

Well, nature does take it's course. People fall in love and things happen, that sometimes can't be helped. Oh it would be nice to have everything all in order and we'd do things the proper way but we live in imperfect world. The bible is littered with these kinds of decisions and I personally wouldn't say it was a sin for what Sean and this girl did

Are you serious? I love Sean like a brother but what he did was called fornication and it is sin! The Bible is full of references to that.

As for considering what I asked about his salvation an insult, Sean didn't he has been asking himself that very question ever since they slept together. OH and it didn't just happen, people can say "NO" they can show restraint...it can be helped!! First they should not have been spending that kind of time alone together with out others to help keep them accountable if there was such a temptation.

Seriously is this reply suppose to be an April fools joke or do you really believe what you said here?

Ellie

Thank you Matthew for sharing here with us. I know many couples who have committed the sin of fornication and regretted it deeply. I know that it takes a lot of courage for these couples to repent and walk in what the Lord has for them. I am glad that you and your wife have been able to make things work. I know that having a baby before marriage does make things even more difficult for you as a couple.

For Lori and Sean things actually went better then expected. I heard from Sean and he said that it was ruff going but not how they thought it would be. Lori parents were upset but not angry. Sean said that after Lori told her dad he was very quiet for along time(they thought he was going to explode) then he just began weeping and crying. He told her he was sorry and asked her to forgive him for not being a proper covering to her. He said he should have been more involved in her life after she moved out and not just allowed the world to dictate what his place as her father should be since she was an adult. Lori asked her parents to forgive her and to please forgive Sean because they were both to blame for what happened. Sean said that Lori mom gave them both a hug and said she would do what ever she could to help them. Lori dad said he needed time to come to terms with this but he held no anger toward either of them and he would be praying on how best help them and give them his support. As far as them getting married, they have decided to go through six months of counseling before. Lori is going to be moving back home with her parents. Sean said that he is going to be cutting back on his classes so he can work full time and get insurance. Things will be hard but if they keep their eyes on the Lord, then they will be fine.

Sean still has to tell his parents but he said he is just so thankful tonight for the Lord being there with them the whole time.

in Him
ellie

For Lori and Sean things actually went better then expected. I heard from Sean and he said that it was ruff going but not how they thought it would be. Lori parents were upset but not angry. Sean said that after Lori told her dad he was very quiet for along time(they thought he was going to explode) then he just began weeping and crying. He told her he was sorry and asked her to forgive him for not being a proper covering to her. He said he should have been more involved in her life after she moved out and not just allowed the world to dictate what his place as her father should be since she was an adult. Lori asked her parents to forgive her and to please forgive Sean because they were both to blame for what happened. Sean said that Lori mom gave them both a hug and said she would do what ever she could to help them. Lori dad said he needed time to come to terms with this but he held no anger toward either of them and he would be praying on how best help them and give them his support.

Now that is a father who walks with the Lord.

Sounds as though things may work out for them - it can if both repent and learn to submit to the leadership of the Holy Spirit.

Thanks for sharing an update, Ellie,
ginnyrose

Now that is a father who walks with the Lord.

Amen to that one we need more fathers like this I definitely hope to be one!

It just goes to show how important it is never to be alone with a girl. Because regardless of how spiritual or Godly you are you will fall. If you are with a girl that you are attracted to for an extended period of time and you are alone with her, you will slide into immorality.

It is amazing on how the Bible says to be in hand to hand combat with Satan and to fight him but when it comes to sexual immorality the Bible says to run away. So what is in me is more dangerous then Satan.

I hope that everything will go amazing with them and if they are with the Lord then all things will work out for the good.

I am happy that i being a young man am able to look at these things and take warning.

For any young people reading this make sure to check out Paul washer's sermon on dating,you will learn a lot and it will probably save you from A LOT of struggle in the future.

When i read a lot of the testimonies here it really helped me. I am very sorry to hear what you guys had to go through and i in no way shape or form want to make light of these things but i hope to learn from you guys and to obey God. And to Obey what he says i should do in regards to how i should find a mate.

To be honest i am 18 years old and i am still a boy and have no idea how to treat a women or even start a family.
No where near manhood to be honest, i am not ready to assume the responsibilities for a girl yet, i hope by the time I'm 28 i can though :D. So crazy that in some cultures you could be 13 and marry. But i guess one of the things i can learn is this.

Do not Live and then learn

But First learn and then live

that way you probably wont have as many scars.

Thanks much guys

Your definition of fornication is not the same as how I perceive fornication in the bible. How I perceive the biblical interpretation of this couple is that they are married in the eyes of God.

________________

I don't want to make this into a debate so I will just say I disagree with your definition of fornication and leave it with this, Sean knows and so does Lori that they both gave in to lust not love. Lori said herself she needs to make sure that its love she feels for Sean. That is why they are not getting married right away, she does not want them to get married just because of the baby.
________________

Just read your update Ellie, heart warming to say the least. You've got more drama in your life than most people that I know, you have a lot of examples coming your way to write about.

I no longer plan to be a writer. Its not for me. I am taking up cooking. Making some ham and cheese omelets this morning for my mother. Think I will throw in some mushrooms and olives(mom likes those) and top it all off with some cheese:)

Hope you have a very good day

in Him
ellie

snufpalagus wrote:

Your definition of fornication is not the same as how I perceive fornication in the bible. How I perceive the biblical interpretation of this couple is that they are married in the eyes of God. Their fornication would be for them to be unfaithful to one another by going out with someone else.

I have never seen such a clever way of dismissing the seriousness, the reality of the sin of fornication! Your argument does not hold up in face of scripture that condemns fornication in no uncertain terms. It is not an ambivalent situation. Ask anyone who has ever has sex and they will tell you it is an intense experience. (Ask me: I know - been married 42 years!!!)

When I was his age, the flesh raged, dear Lord, I couldn't control it.

Oh yes, you could have - if you had wanted to. Our parents were virgins when they married, as were we and our sons who married plus lots of others. And yes, we were tempted but with the empowerment of the Holy Spirit we could resist. It is all in the will of whether we want to please the Father AND the fear of consequences - this was a fantastic motivator.

But what I am issuing here is the possibility that God just might have been involved.

Now indicating that God was in some vague way involved in this sin??? Are you not aware of James 1:13? This still stands regardless of current morals that look at immorality as a personal opinion. Sin is absolute - you cannot ever deny it's awfulness and emerge unscathed.

Did you know that persons who get involved in immorality have problems with sexual addictions? and that people who reserve it for marriage and then confine themselves only to their spouse never have this problem? Sure, I have heard of married men having sexual addictions but they fed their lusts through porn. And I would also guess the reason they married is to legally fulfill their lusts. Sexual desire is inborn but to be exercised only within the context of marriage. ONLY.

Back to the issue of fornication and what it is: simply sex outside of marriage. PERIOD. Your argument about what constitutes marriage is confused, muddled at best. I am not aware of any culture that does not have a situation in which it does not define marriage or adultery or fornication. "Sleeping around" has never been defined as marriage. Marriage may occur by appearing before the JP and saying some vows, or it may occur before the minister with one other person present. In any case they made vows and this constitutes marriage which is then consummated with the sex act done in private.

snuf, are you not aware of Ephesians 5:3? It says to not let it once be named among you! How often is 'ONCE'? Methinks you have not developed a horror of this sin...

snufagapulas, I find your argument so flawed that it evokes more questions like I am wondering whether you are today living on victory over this sin?

snuf, I find this post so shocking, so bad I find it hard to believe a Believer would hold to such an ambivalent attitude about fornication - but then you may be a product of liberalism, but God can deliver you from it, if you want to. I can also tell you that if you had run these ideas by any volunteers at the CPC where I worked for 15 years they would have dismissed you in no uncertain terms.

ginnyrose

Greetings Ginnyrose

I was going to reply to snuf myself but you did such an awesome job that I will just say a resounding AMEN!! I agree with all that you said here!!!

God bless you sister
mj

For Lori and Sean things actually went better then expected. . . . Lori is going to be moving back home with her parents. Sean said that he is going to be cutting back on his classes so he can work full time and get insurance. Things will be hard but if they keep their eyes on the Lord, then they will be fine.

Hey, this is such a positive step! So few come off like this. May God continue to grant grace to all to love and work this out. Fornication is not a worse sin than hatred and each one only thinking of themselves. It sounds like the beginning to a beautiful story, if they will follow through with the Lord. In some ways, I hope they end up getting married, but may it be as is best in the eyes of God. You can let them know that we will be praying for all of them and they will be upon our hearts.

As for victory, if we were all victorious we wouldn't be calling for revival. And no, I am not justifying fornication, it's a sin PERIOD.

These two people according to the bible are married. I am shocked that you can't see that.

Your tone sounds quite agitated, friend. Please recognize that a good deal of sound Bible teaching differs from your perspective. In the New Testament, Paul admitted that a man was one flesh with a harlot, but of course they were not married. Also, under the Law of Moses, a man and woman could lie together but still the father could deny a marriage, in which case there was fornication but no marriage.

We can all agree there is no real definition of marriage in the Bible, but I take the two examples that are upheld as definitive. Adam and Eve are the example cited universally, of course, and I personally include Isaac and Rebekah because God gave their union an entire chapter. What are the characteristics of marriage that differ from fornication? It seems to be the recognition of attraction and commitment to lifelong relationship. Simple as that.

His intention was fornication certainly, but he still married her because he is now "one flesh" with her regardless if he likes it or not, that is what marriage is according to the scriptures.

If having sex with someone makes these persons married, then there would be be no sin called fornication. If these people - then being 'married' - have sex with someone else they would be committing adultery. So then, what is fornication?

ginnyrose

Greetings Paulmcg1

You should read over my update concerning Sean and Lori decision. I will copy and past part of it here for you:

For Lori and Sean things actually went better then expected. I heard from Sean and he said that it was ruff going but not how they thought it would be. Lori parents were upset but not angry. Sean said that after Lori told her dad he was very quiet for along time(they thought he was going to explode) then he just began weeping and crying. He told her he was sorry and asked her to forgive him for not being a proper covering to her. He said he should have been more involved in her life after she moved out and not just allowed the world to dictate what his place as her father should be since she was an adult. Lori asked her parents to forgive her and to please forgive Sean because they were both to blame for what happened. Sean said that Lori mom gave them both a hug and said she would do what ever she could to help them. Lori dad said he needed time to come to terms with this but he held no anger toward either of them and he would be praying on how best help them and give them his support. As far as them getting married, they have decided to go through six months of counseling before. Lori is going to be moving back home with her parents. Sean said that he is going to be cutting back on his classes so he can work full time and get insurance. Things will be hard but if they keep their eyes on the Lord, then they will be fine.

So as you can see Lori parents have had a very Christ like attitude and heart for them both. Sadly Sean's parents have not...

If you do not mind I would like to address some of what you wrote in the rest of your reply:)

You wrote:

God sends down a baby into her womb as a blessing and as though He were saying, "I bless thee with children, I want you to be married, I don't condemn you for having a burning passion which you couldn't contain

I have to take issue with this statement. They could have controlled their behavior by deny self and obeying the Lord. Even more so they could have obeyed the Lord and not placed themselves in the situation that was such a temptation to begin with. Sean should never have allowed the two of them to be alone together in the first place(these are his own words)Even though they were dating he should have treated her as a sister in Christ at all times, not giving into lust. And God does condemn it, that's why it is called sin. Both Lori and Sean know they were in sin and they both are repenting of that sin. I understand your heart but we need to be careful when we share with others that we do not give them excuse for their sin. Conviction over sin from the Holy Spirit is a very good thing in a believers life:)

I do not think anyone here is saying marriage is wrong or bad. I support marriage, I have been married myself since I was 17 and still in high school. SO marriage is not the issue, what is the issue is that these two went outside of Gods will for them, committed fornication and a baby resulted. Now this baby is a wonderful blessing to be sure, life is precious and should be treated as such, however that does not mean that it is in Gods plan that they should marry. Both of them need to make sure they are first right with God, then they need to submit themselves to those the Lord has placed in their life with the local body of believers who can help, encourage, and admonish them in their walk with the Lord. They both have agreed to this and I say this with all care, knowing both of these two people background as I do, this is Gods hand in this situation completely. To see such hearts of this couple filled with repentance and brokenness over their sin. That is God working in their life. TO see a father reach out to his daughter in such a moment, you just don't see that today.

Marriage is difficult, I know as well as anyone so it is so very important that both Sean and Lori know that getting married is what the Lord desires for them. They are going to have a hard enough time(as I am sure you will agree) but if they are walking in a willingness to live unto the Lord then as I said before they will make it. But they both have to be on that same page, they both have to have a willingness to live deny self and putting Jesus first in their life. Right now Lori needs time, she is confused, she is afraid and she needs to know what the Lords will is for her life. I think it is a good idea for them to take a few months and seek the Lord, get counsel from older mature brothers and sister and then through prayer consider what the Lords heart is for them.

I do think after listening and hearing what they both shared that they will end up married.(just my thinking) I just think that taking this time of opening themselves up to those the Lord has given them in their life will help them better lay a solid foundation so that they can have a strong marriage that will endure the struggles of this world and that they enemy will throw at them.

Thank you Paul for your care and for sharing.

In Him
ellie

Hi Paul
I hope my reply did not offend you. It was not
meant to. Thank you again for your care
in Him
Ellie

A child IS God's gift to them and sign to them that they ought to be a husband and wife to each other. What a wonderful blessing! But what a curse to the world. How dare some of you think otherwise! Instead you only see their sin like the devil does.

Anyone can make a baby... This does not mean that the baby was in God's will for their lives. Is a baby a blessing from the Lord? Of course. Does having or making a baby mean that your walking with the Lord and this is what the Lord had intended?.?... absolutely not.

Babies are not a sign that people should be together. It is a sign that they had sex.

Snuf

both your examples where situation that sin was involved as well. Leah and Rachel's father lied to Jacob and tricked him. David was in sin in what he did to Bathsheba. Sean and Lori were in sin of fornication, now that does not mean that the Lord can not bring about something God just as He did with Jacob, and David. What matters is that this couple see their sin in their actions, repent of that sin and seek to walk with the Lord as they move forward in life.

I have been trying to wrap my mind around your definition of fornication, marriage, and adultery. If I understand you believe because this couple choose to give into lust and have physical relations with each other they are now considered married by God? So if I follow that logic if they go their separate ways and later actually marry another person, they are both then guilty of adultery because by your view of it they were married to each other?
Is this how you believe?

God Bless
mj

snuf,

So how do you define fornication?

ginnyrose

I think this comes down to the fact that both of these young people have admitted that what they did was sin. Ellie posted that Sean and Lori both said so themselves. They felt the conviction of the Holy Spirit with out anyone even saying anything to them. I think Ellie said something to that affect, that Sean knew he had been in sin as soon as it happened.
This young couple did not take a vow, her parents did not give her to be Sean wife. They did not even speak any kind of vow to each other, they were alone and they gave in to temptation. If what they had shared was marriage or accepted as marriage, why the secrecy? Why the need to keep it hidden from her parents and friends(until she got pregnant?) To equate this to marriage is a very dangerous view that I do not see supported in the Bible any where.

I was in the same situation as this young couple years ago and I knew that I was in sin, no one had to tell me. I knew what I was doing was not in Gods will for me and I had to repent of that sin when I came to know the Lord. Physical relations before marriage is sin no matter how much the world wants to say other wise.

mj

snuf,
I have never in my born days heard a definition of fornication as put forth by you.

I did some checking in the Old Testament concerning marriage. The concept of marriage is that a man takes a wife. He is responsible for her well-being. The terms 'wife', 'marry' appear in the OT as well as does the term 'harlot'. There is a distinct difference between the two.

The term harlot refers to one who was intimate with someone you are not married to.

Amnon raped his half-sister Tamar and never do we read where she became his wife.

Some OT characters had concubines. They enjoyed some level of protection, they were not girlfriends, neither were they harlots where they went from one male to another.

Then you have men who had many wives. Kings were forbidden by law to take unto themselves multiple wives, Deuteronomy 17:14-19. But they did it anyways. The record demonstrates the validity of God's word when he specifically said they will turn their husbands heart away from God. Solomon is a prime example of this law of reaping/sowing.

The same scripture also forbids kings from multiplying horses, yet we read where Solomon could stable 20000 of the animals.

Disobedience was common in these OT characters and God had these acts of sin recorded for our learning. The lesson we learn is that disobedience does not pay, there will always be tragic consequences. ALWAYS. Sometime, somewhere although it may not be immediate.

The point is that there is a difference between harlotry and wives. There were marriages. How this was performed the a scriptures do not say - it appears the ritual of marriage was cultural. We do know the lady to be married was called a bride (Jeremiah 2:32).

To suggest these OT men's wives were girlfriends is not true. Scripture calls them wives, not harlots.

Snuf, Scripture says what it means, means what it says and one does not have to use a convoluted method of comprehension. A basic method in understanding Scripture is to take a word, find where it appears first in the WORD and follow its use throughout the Scripture to discern its meaning. You will notice that as you go through, God's laws pertaining to some things changes, some quite radically, especially when you get to the New Testament (compared to the OT.).

Snuf, the Scriptures are easily understood when one uses simple comprehension skills learned in grade school. I know of an evangelist who had many degrees from prestigious universities, like Princeton, Harvard saying that he is amazed that a person who has the Holy Spirit,and no more then an eight grade education and is a faithful student of the WORD will come to the same conclusions as he does.

Snuf, I did not even get to the New testament to discuss what it says about immorality...what I did say is enough to get one started. And there are many more Scriptures one can use to demonstrate the awfulness of fornication, adultery. My single clients at CPC knew fornication was sin and they called it that. They knew. How did it get there?

Snuf, when one takes your reasoning it is frightening where one can end up at. This concerns me much.

Blessings,
ginnyrose

If they marry, there is no sin or fornication and it makes this whole thread irrelevent!

1 Cor 7.9 But if they don’t have self-control, let them marry. For it’s better to marry than to burn.

MJ wrote:

Physical relations before marriage is sin no matter how much the world wants to say other wise.

snuf wrote:Actually the world doesn't say otherwise. It's opinions from people like me that say otherwise. But Sean and Lori felt that they sinned, so be it, who are we to dispute their conscience, we have our own to deal with let alone theirs.

____________________

Actually it is very acceptable in today's world for couples to hook up and have relations outside of marriage.(my generation especially) Its also totally acceptable for couples to live together and never get married. Hooking up with a guy is not any more big deal then getting a new pair of shoes, when your bored with the ones you have just move on to the next pair. This mentality is really common among many of my unsaved family and friends. The pressure to have multiple partners before marriage is not only acceptable by the world its actually encouraged. When I share with people that my husband was my first and only they look at me like I am a freak. I think that is why some of us are concerned with the notion that your promoting here about marriage and having intimate relations as an act of having married someone. I can tell you first hand of at least two girlfriends who have had their hearts broken because they fell for that line of logic. Guys promise that they love them, that they will be together for ever any way so why wait until they are married, after all its just a piece of paper any way it doesn't mean anything. Then later these same guys are gone...that piece of paper does mean something it means that the guy cares enough to make a promise to you, to your family, and to everyone else before God that he will be there. He cares enough to publicly declare it and to be accountable to it. (of course not all who make that promise hold to it for a life time as the world also says that divorce is no big deal either. That is the trouble when you look to the world for your answers instead of God.)

Snuf I guess we will have to part as having disagreed because nothing you have shared has changed my conviction on this. And its clear you feel the same...

Have a nice Sunday
ellie

edited: for it little added thought

Snuf: I am sorry to hear about your sister, I pray she will find comfort in the Lord. I have written several replies to your latest post and deleted each one of them. I do believe the Lord is telling me to let it go. So I will...

in Him
ellie

Greetings Sunf

Don't be frightened, all of this is mostly speculation, I just dared to express it.

You wrote this a few posts back to ginnyrose I think and it has been bothering me since. If this opinion of yours is just "mostly speculation" on your part why would you ever come into a public forum and put forth and defend as being Biblical in the first place. Seems a dangerous thing to do considering that there are young people who come to SI, that perhaps are not as strong in Christ as you?

Perhaps something you might pray about and consider

God bless you
maryjane

Sorry Ellie, I am having a hard time quitting this thread. Hopefully I won't be tempted to answer another question. Ack!!

Sorry Snuf I was not aware that you were quitting the thread. I will not make any further inquires to you. I do not want to be a stumbling block to you.

God Bless
mj

edit:
Ellie I am sorry if I got to off topic with your thread. I was very sorry to hear about Sean and what happened. As you said there are consequence when we sin and walk outside of Gods will for us. Perhaps in time things will change.

by snufalapagus
I think her downfall was that she took care of him, she treated him like a man should be treated and her payment was unfaithfulness.

Your sister might be the one who was totally duped but I’d say it was a lot like the above! The above was me!! And I’ve talked to many other women and all of our stories are the same! We all had signs but for the sake of the man, we ignored them. Sad, isn’t it?

I’ve been single eight years and I’m 50 now and I admitted to the Lord that I always put men before Him and I have even done that with my sons. I apologized to my sons and told them, I was so wrong to have done that that I was not putting them first anymore. I’m living to please the Lord and only Him.

I hope your sister is smarter a lot earlier than I have been! If so, she will have the greater testimony! Men are not everything ( :( sorry!!), but God is everything!

There's my confession of the day!!! To God be all the Glory for my failures which only He can turn around for my good! I will be praying for your sister, I pray her broken heart leads her closer to the feet of Jesus!!

, her downfall was marrying a selfish and unequally yoked man. We (women) have dated men for outward appearances and we get emotionally attached or involved BEFORE we ever size them up spiritually. We fall in love with men we have no business falling in love with to begin with and THEN we live in the fantasy that one day they will love us enough to change when in fact; we overlooked all the warning signs in the beginning of the relationship that actually proved it was, in fact, themselves they only loved.

Lysa I was very touched by your testimony. I was not going to post back to this thread anymore but I wanted you to know that I was really moved by what you shared. I am sorry to say that one of my sisters is married to this same kind of guy that you describe here. She over looks all kinds of stuff because she is sure that he will eventually change. That has not happened so far.

MJ: Thank you for your post. I will let Sean know what you said:) It is so sad because when Sean came by he said this has turned it to one of his biggest regrets in his whole life. He told Jase that when he went out that night with Lori it was just suppose to be dinner and a movie, not change his entire life and turn it upside down. Jase told him sin has a way of doing that to your life...I thought that to be very profound.

in Him
ellie

snuf,

I will try to answer your question:

What marries a man and a woman?

But before I do, let me tell you that I do not for one minute believe I can help you understand the Biblical concept of marriage, moral purity. You have made up your liberal mind and a liberal mind's method of thinking is to impose your own philosophy upon the scripture to make it say what will suit your philosophical bent. My purpose for posting is that I am very concerned about any youth that will read your posts on this subject. Your posts, your attitude towards fornication is so warped that it grieved me deeply. I could hardly think of anything else all day.

We have a son who is shacking with a divorcee; I have three nephews who are shacking. This conduct informs us they are on the road to hell and thy care not a twit. We parents grieve, we get angry, we would like to kill them so they could experience hell for a day and then want to resurrect them so they can repent and live for the LORD. (But will never do it, but we do experience these feelings.) So, when I see someone post with such an ambivalent attitude towards immorality, I get angry and have to fight tears. This is what you have imposed upon not only me but others as well.

So what I am going to say is to the singles...allow me to inform you of something else: I am a grandmother who also birthed 5 children, have 11 grands and this week I will complete 63 years of life on this planet. During these 63 years I also worked at a Crises Pregnancy Center for 15 years. Our clients were mostly singles who fornicated. We were also required to do chastity counseling besides sharing the gospel with them. I saw what was happening to popular culture and how it has invaded the 'church'. Many pastors will preach against immorality but will not discipline erring members, hence sin has taken over popular churches. Stats inform us that the morals in the 'church' are no different then in secular culture. Church members 'sleep around' divorce their spouses and remarry another one in the church and the offended one is commanded to forgive the offender and if you don't you are sinning. And all the while this philander is sitting there smiling as happy as could be while the hurting family grieves.

Christians have taken this doctrine of forgiveness to a level of license to sin. Many have said you must forgive your brother of his sin whether he repents or not. Repentance is optional. Unrepentant sinners are made to feel loved and accepted in the brotherhood, except it no longer is one but a social club.

Ok, now to answer the question: "What marries a man and a woman?"

I asked different people today this question and all agreed that it is commitment. It is a commitment to leave all others and cleave (Matthew 19:5) to this person until death do you part. This commitment is done publicly so there will be witnesses to help you enforce this covenant. Then it is consummated by the sexual act later in private.

The concept of marriage was birthed in the heart of God:Let us make man in our own image, in the image of God created he them." Genesis 1:27. God made them, brought them together and then after doing so said, "go and multiply." Genesis 1:28.

Marriage is a unity, a oneness in spirit, a cooperation in work, mind, heart, purpose. This is the beginning of marriage. It must be in place in order for a marriage to succeed. When this oneness of spirit, soul is functioning it will creat an environment in which children can grow and be nourished, thus perpetuating the existence of humans on this planet. The act of sex is to reinforce the oneness of a couple that is unified in soul, mind; they become glued together in the physical act. When this process is reversed much distrust will dog this couple, especially the female.

In an illicit relationship the male will promise the lady the moon if she will surrender her body to him only to find out he does not have the capability to do so, so now she feels cheated and angry. Her ability to trust males has been been severely impaired. And the male cannot figure this out, nor can he ever understand it. For females the sexual act is a deeply emotional act not just the physical act as it is for males. This is why females get so deeply hurt after she surrenders to a male who is not committed to love her and provide for her until death do you part. And the world is now populated with many angry females.

In the 60's the birth control pill was issued, guaranteeing females the freedom to engage in illicit sex with little fear of pregnancy. But what has happened? Divorce rate skyrocketed, as did the abuse rates for all - for women and children. Males abandoned their children, leaving them for their mothers to raise; drug abuse has become epidemic; sexually transmitted diseases proliferated. All because of couples hooking up without a commitment to each other. The only winners in this mess are the abortion providers, the manufacturers of condoms and the BC pill.

And the problem has invaded what was once called the church - and still popularly called that but in reality they are not the bride of Christ. The Spirit that invaded the church at Thyatira has become the norm for the popular church today.

The church at Thyatira was a church that was strong on helping the needy, they had works of "charity, and service, and faith, and patience, and works; and the last to be more than the first." Revelation 2:19. But Jesus had something against them! Revelation 2:20-21.
"thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not." And what judgement did Jesus impose upon them? Read on - " I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation (sickness NASB), except they repent of their deeds. And I will kill her children with death (pestilence, NASB); and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works." Revelation 2: 22-23. There is one word of hope and that word is REPENT. Nothing less will do. Repentance means being 100% sorry for your sin. And few experience this level of repentance, thus failing to repent altogether. (I have had abortion minded clients tell me they know abortion is sin but they cannot handle having a child so they will have to abort, know that God will understand. Yes, I know it is sin, but after the ab I will ask him to forgive me!!!!) And too many people have the same mentality as these ab minded clients and think they can extract forgiveness from a holy God!

Brothers and sisters, immorality will ensnare you, entrap you. Do NOT give in to the lie that having sex will make you married. It is true that it is an act of making two one flesh but this is not marriage: It is sin, condemned by the NT scriptures in no uncertain terms. If you fall for that lie, let me tell you God is not the author of that concept: the devil is! Stay away from it...Ellie shared how Sean is now suffering the consequences of his sin...and it happens all the time. Just think how free he would have been had he obeyed the will of God in this matter!

ginnyrose

"It is only a piece of paper"

This statement came to me this morning and I feel compelled to address it here, not for the sake of the regulars on SI but for those youth who may be struggling with this idea "why bother to be formally married, getting a piece of paper, it will not make you married!"

It is true a piece of paper will not make you married. But wait....why the resistance to the 'piece of paper'? Think about that!

Will this 'piece of paper' prevent you from serving the LORD? Is this paper evil? Does it conflict with the WORD of GOD in any shape or form? No?

I know there are people who declare it unconstitutional to insist that married people need a marriage certificate...I am not addressing this issue because from observation, this is NOT the issue with most folks.

Now let us consider the resistance to acquiring this 'piece of paper'. How often does one find this kind of resistance to acquiring a driver's license? A license to practice medicine? nursing? to pilot an airplane? a ship?

The issue here is much greater then obtaining 'a piece of paper', it is that of submitting to authority. If you are a young person looking to marrying someone and he/she brings forth this line 'that it is just a piece of paper' what does he/she want to do? Have sex now? This resistance is a huge red flag that you need to be aware of.

The reason this is a red flag is that it demonstrates a resistance to authority. This law does not hurt you. All of life consists of submitting to authority somewhere. It is everywhere. If you marry a person who resists authority just know you are in for trouble, big time. He/she will resists God's authority, the law, the employer and YOU. This person is self-serving - always. If it is not convenient to help you, he/she will not. A self-serving person is utterly selfish who thinks the world revolves around him/her.

In doing a tad bit of research for the piece I wrote about what makes a man and woman married I found something very interesting that at the time befuddled me.

In the Hebrew the word for adultery is closely associated with idolatry. (Check it out on e-Sword). Later the significance of this came to me. Sexual sin is always idolatrous at the core because it is rejecting God as the authority in life and behaviours. Always when a person gets involved in immorality is is all about what 'I want', 'my desire', 'I cannot help it'. It is all about ME which means "I" is on the throne, displacing God. Love means you care for the best in the other person but this means it is done with the perimeters of God's Will operating.

If you want more on this subject, you can go to e-Sword and search for 'submit' and see what the WORD says about submission...it hits us all, no exception. Not a popular concept today but this does not mean it is irrelevant.

Must run, get to the greenhouses...

God bless..

ginnyrose

In the Hebrew the word for adultery is closely associated with idolatry. (Check it out on e-Sword). Later the significance of this came to me. Sexual sin is always idolatrous at the core because it is rejecting God as the authority in life and behaviours. Always when a person gets involved in immorality is is all about what 'I want', 'my desire', 'I cannot help it'. It is all about ME which means "I" is on the throne, displacing God. Love means you care for the best in the other person but this means it is done with the perimeters of God's Will operating.

I thought what you wrote here was really insightful. I know that as I have been studying this the one thing I keep coming back to with sin that involves sex is the instant gratification of self. Self is always at the center and the focus. The attitude and heart are all about pleasing self and replacing God just as you mentioned.

Ellie spoke with me this morning(she still is in a lot of pain from her back though). She mentioned that Sean dad is so angry that he not only is with holding all finical help for school, he has forbidden his mother to speak to him unless it forgets this notion of marrying Lori. I have to say I am really shocked at how unwilling his dad is to listen or to forgive. I guess he just can not let go of the fact that Sean will not be doing all of the things he had planned for him.

And there are those in the world who say that fornication is not a big deal. This is costing this young man so much but at least he sees his sin and desires to walk with the Lord. I think when he comes through this he will have a very powerful testimony in the Lord for young men who find themselves struggling with this as well.

God bless
Mj

MaryJane,

It is so sad the Sean's dad cannot forgive his son...usually it is the mother who is so angry and the father is more forgiving. In any case I trust Sean will cling to the LORD and not allow this to destroy him because this is what the enemy wants to accomplish in his life.

You know we all prayed for Ellie and now that marriage is on the mend, so we now need to pray for Sean...perhaps the LORD will yet work a miracle in the lives of that family...

Blessings,

ginnyrose

God has no trouble with this "one flesh" arrangement. BUT MAN DOES

~I always have a problem with folks use the "one flesh" argument to advocate for fornication/sex outside marriage.

If fornication made all people...or any people...'married' by virtue of their "amorous"/intimate activities, then
every college girl and boy, every single, or lapsed married person, who has shunned their covenant and gone awry, would by this logic be "MARRIED" to EVERYONE THEY EVER HAD SEX WITH!!!

THAT IS NOT GOD's take on the matter.

So let's PLEASE stop trying to talk and think and speak as if we are little 'gods' because this years 'model' or one's loins do the talking and deciphering of right and wrong.

I have heard SO MANY pastors speak about young men, mostly under 30, claiming 'saving faith' yet STILL using the old "but we're really wed" card, as if THAT'S any reason to pretend sin is not still sin and "feelings" have nothing to do with right and wrong in His eyes. He has a HOLY Spirit afterall.

ALSO, what about unequally yolked?

has anyone touched that topic yet?

Don't even TELL me you have saving faith and yet live in sin and think it's 'fine' of you marry an unsaved soul to try to make fornication 'lawful' in God's sight.

That's just...making things worse

but if both arent saved

it's still wrong, but an equal yolk
so..that's all

In all things God needs to be praised and gloryfied. When situations turn up in our lives either by our sin or by persicution of carrying the cross, It is an opportunity for us to rely more on Jesus and realise that it is only in his strength that we can overcome any situation. This is how we grow in Faith and learn to trust the lord that he is a faithful and mighty God. I would stear away from making any plans on what you should or shouldnt do without the lords Guidence because then you would be relying on worldy wisdom and not Gods. Remember that God knows whats going on.

So the big Question will always be "How can God be glorified through my life?"

Sometimes this awnser may sound too simple to be effective by a worldy view but it is thee awnser and it is the truth that carries christians to victory. :)