Days of Lot

[url=http://www.christianpost.com/article/20100413/jennifer-knapp-returns-to-christian-music-scene-confirms-her-sexuality/]Jennifer Knapp Returns to Christian Music Scene, Confirms Sexuality[/url]

Luke 17:28

Well, For one, I would say don't buy the album! Second, I see this as a test. How the Christian community and Christian music industry responds is going to reveal what is in their hearts. I would never post something like this if she had not come out public with her own statements. She is testing the Christian world, saying..."This is the way I am. What are you going to do about it?" She sang at my old church a couple times when I was younger...so to a degree it is somewhat personal, though I would never condemn anyone, I would say, "Go and sin no more." Are we going to allow this little bit of leaven?

It is like the days of Hosea...we reach to grasp the hand of God...with the dumb idols of wickedness still firmly in our opposing grip.

I also posted this for the sake of those who might purchase the album in ignorance. Might save you fourteen bucks.

Daniel chapter nine is what we do codek...we pray prayers of repentance for our wayward people, even if we are not involved with it ourselves. Daniel received vision from God when he repented on behalf of his own people, though his own sin was never mentioned.

Fact is, things like this just don't surprise anymore.

Now, it's just a matter of whose next.

We simply affirm what the scriptures say, this is an abomination to God and as already quoted, we don't by the albumn. We are under obligation, by the Spirit to declare the truth, even if we lose our heads for it.

It is the same all over the church. Compromise with sin is eating us up. It is time for the bride to make herself ready, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing.

edit:

I would like to say one more thing, we need to deceide whether we are listening to "christian music" for entertainment purposes or for worship purposes. There are some chistian ministers out there who minister in music, like Aberto & Kim Rivera
[url=http://www.cupbearer.com/html/riveras.htm]Alberto & Kim Rivera[/url]These folks are not intertainers, but worshippers.

Rom 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

Isa 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

It should be very frightening to those who condone such behavior and don't speak out against it. This is what pleasure is in the Strongs:

1) it seems good to one, is one's good pleasure

a) think it good, choose, determine, decide

b) to do willingly

c) to be ready to, to prefer, choose rather

2) to be well pleased with, take pleasure in, to be favourably inclined towards one

We are certainly in the days of apostacy and we need to make sure we are walking in Revelation 3:18

I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and [that] the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

Also BrotherTom I do believe it is exponentially increasing. And think of this, these are the very things that the righteous will stand against and get killed in the not too distant future. The stage is being set. Will we come out purified or damned.

Does any one else get the feeling that there has been an exponential effect; like a snow ball racing down the hill, faster and larger every second?

Most certainly...what has been nagging at the back of my mind for some time now...is why? Why the compulsion to attach oneself to Christianity philosophically, and completely deny that attachment through ones actions. That is what is the vehemently consistent theme I see in so many. Why not just deny the faith?

The quick answer would be to say that everyone wants to go to heaven but does not want to give up sin...that may be consistently true, but I have a hunch it is going deeper than that. It seems to be a move to actually spiritualize and turn sin into a virtue. It is paganism via the word of God...truly the scriptures are being wrested to destruction.

I happen to know personally that this is more than just a battle of flesh...it is the Spirit of the age. We are not warring against flesh and blood here, and the only way this battle can be won is in the Spirit. When I was first married, and had been a "christian" for about 4-5 years, I listened to a lot of bad music. Specifically I listened to U2 an enormous amount. I remember that my wife and I got into a big argument over Bono's lyrics and she told me that his stuff was straight from the pit of hell. I remember arguing against her logic that he was just being "honest" about who he was, which was better than most Christians I had met. I had bought the lie, hook, line and sinker. I was a partaker of this devilish Spirit which is consuming so many people...the strange thing was that I did not really learn that idea from anyone. I was just naturally doing what so many others were, turning that which is evil...into that which is good. Unless we are apprehended by, and apprehend the Spirit of God through the blood of Christ we too would be swept away with the tide of filth and debauchery in the world today. Christians whom hold to a literal interpretation of scripture are becoming a hiss and a byword more and more. We better not be deceived by those peddling anything other than the absolute truth of God's word revealed in the son, and preached by the Apostles.

The path down this slick muddy moral slide starts very very subtly. Watch out eye-gate, ear-gate, sense-gate...what we consume may be the fruit of righteousness turned into hemlock. And judgment turned into gall. Amos 6:12. We must prophesy against the spirit of Amaziah...which is alive and well today.

I was at one of Jennifer's first ever concerts in the municipal auditorium in Pittsburg, KS quite a few years back. At the time I believe she might have been going to school there. At the time there seemed to be an anointing on what she was doing. I am saddened to read the article. Lord open her eyes to truth and her heart to surrender to You.

Travis.

is why? Why the compulsion to attach oneself to Christianity philosophically, and completely deny that attachment through ones actions.

I suggest it is all about money! After all, if they can say they are gay, their music will appeal to all the 'tolerant' folks - us old fashion folks are fast becoming few and far in-between. We pose no threat to their wallets or bank accounts.

Sorry, I cannot be more positive..

ginnyrose

I liked what Areadymind mind stated: "Daniel chapter nine is what we do codek...we pray prayers of repentance for our wayward people, even if we are not involved with it ourselves. Daniel received vision from God when he repented on behalf of his own people, though his own sin was never mentioned."

This is the most merciful thing I've ever read in the many topics about homosexuality on sermonindex. Thank you for posting this, areadymind.

It is intriguing Tom, that you quoted Hebrews 12:15...
The following is more personal testimony than it has directly to do with why I posted the thread, though I think the concept links to the musicians story.

You made me think back again to my original story about the Spirit of the age and how when I was under my own deception, there was a very direct linkage to bitterness that had crept into my heart. At the time I was angry to a degree with a particular group of believers whom I felt then, and still feel today (even though I have completely forgiven them) as if they had wronged me inadvertently. My own spiritualization of sin did have a linkage to this bitterness. Praise God for His endless mercy that He delivered me from this gall that I was in. Bitterness has severed many walks with God.

I cannot count how many people whom I have known over the years who allowed just a little bit of bitterness to creep in and before you know it they were justifying their sin and in a place of hatred of other believers. Then...they just disappeared.

That we could be so deluded as to anoint Sin as a virtue. It's shocking, if we consider it.It is as though that the wicked have discovered a new avenue of GRACE, and are proudly trumpeting it as revelation.

So true Tom...especially the idea of proudly trumpeting it as revelation. I think this concept has been expressed in some of the books of this X-religeneration.

This is exactly why I think that the book of Jude is so incredibly important (I know I have posted this idea like I am kicking a dead horse on this forum...but I will one more time) and that preachers need to be preaching the message Jude talked about. Especially how he starts the epistle after his "disclaimer" in verse three. (It is a total distraction that many use verse three of Jude for the idea of apologetics...Jude is not talking AT ALL about defending the faith against Buddhism, Islam, the occult, fill in the blank with other religions etc...he is talking about those amongst our ranks that seethe with a naturally rebellious spirit, whom then foment into outright falsehood. Jude is about a battle within the kingdom.)

I have always like this quote from Marcus Tullius Cicero, and I think it applies to this conversation. Even though he meant it politically...I rob it and apply it spiritually “A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to fear. The traitor is the plague.”

"For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ." Jude 4

It was these words that began to completely change my life and saved me from being a cultural christian. God used this passage to radically open my eyes to what was going on around me. After I had spent months meditating on this passage of scripture (as well as the whole book of Jude,) I became cognizant of this style of teaching. I started to hear it everywhere. I looked back over my own discipleship and recognized that I had been subtly taught this. Not intentionally, at least I do not think it was so, but I learned it nonetheless. Because of current traditions and the way the gospel is so often presented, we are not taught what grace is in its full sense. We have been taught well what it is in a partial sense, but I think that a partial sense is destructive. Grace is more than just forgiveness, if you don't think so then wrap your head around this..."But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever. Amen." 2Peter 3:18. If we are to grow in "forgiveness" then I guess I have to sin more, for how else can I grow in grace if grace is unmerited forgiveness, or favor?

I am not setting up a straw man, this is how I have been taught over the years to understand grace...it is almost always presented as God's unmerited favor, forgiveness, and love regardless of what we do. And to an extent it is. I just have come to see grace as a billion times more than that...it is forgiveness with capacity. Grace is like a heavenly capacitor, charged to an infinite asymptote and released through Christs blood from the cross, through the Spirit. It not only saves us but gives us the voltage we need for perfection. It is the answer to Galatians rhetorical question, "Are ye so foolish, having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect in the flesh?" HEAVEN'S NOOOO!!! We are perfected through faith in the same thing that saved us to start with, the resurrection Power of Christ. Grace is so much bigger. So much more vast, the grace of Calvary is the very wellspring of God's nature...the more we grow in this grace...the less distinction we find between our nature and God's nature. It is the destruction of the flaming swords preventing entrance to Eden in the final sense, but certainly restores fellowship in the now sense. Eye has not seen...ear has not heard...

It is my own personal opinion, and is not a hill I am willing to die on, but I see Jude as being a prophetic epistle...even down to its placement in the bible. Right before the Revelation...it is the last word on doctrine prior to the Apocalypse...and I do not see that as a coincidence. It seems to me as if Jude is our line in the sand during the beginning of sorrows. As it would seem to me that Jude almost saw our day...he was so tuned into the idea that men had, and were going to corrupt God's grace and make it into something that benefits those who are only...pathetically...wretchedly... natural. "But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves." Jude 10

The question for me has never been, should I show mercy to a sinner. Christ showed us that we are always to go low and show compassion on one caught in the act of adultery, which was the only time we ever saw him write anything. Which makes that event significant even if we do not know what he wrote.

The thing that is a struggle in so many of our circles today is brute beasts. Too many of us know these kinds of believers...and often times it is the rule and not the exception that they are using the grace of God to maintain a natural state. I only know this because I was one of them. Praise God he opens blind eyes. At the end of the Epistle there are two solutions to this mass deception from wicked men, "And of some have compassion, making a difference; And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh." Jude 22-23 People whom have been swayed by this kind of deception need either compassion...or fire, and I think only the Spirit of God can give us the knowledge as to which is needed. It is not something we can play Russian Roulette with.

Sorry for the long post...

Wonderful and thoughtful post Areadymind. It takes great amounts of prayer and wisdom to address this sort of subject, although I know many will criticize it to justify their own lusts.

The words may be strong, but there are so many that simply drowning before our eyes because they idolize these musicians even above their own pastors. I have always feared that the music that was introduced into the churches was planted by the fallen cherub himself.

I am so saddened by the parents who will someday stand before God and give an account of why they did not rule their houses well and deliver their children safely to the cross. These are perilous times for sure.

I remember being taken aback when someone that was involved heavily in satanism and then was saved, exposed the fact that trained witches and wizards would plant themselves in churches to infect the body with sin.

They creep in unawares, and with subtilty, introduce false doctrine and rebellion. They know the Word far more than most Christians do because they are literally trained to cause the saints to fall. If they appeared outright evil and sinful, they would never be received, but they are charismatic and know how to gain the praises of the congregation.

Yes, I so believe the epistle of Jude is prophetic as well as II Thessalonians, II Peter, and James to mention a few. If we read watered down versions of the Word, and spend no time in brokenness and prayer, we greatly risk being deceived.

I have visited this young woman's website, and done some research which convinces me that she simply does not know the Lord. There isn't even a hint of anguish or shame for the sin she is in. Worst of all, she is performing in the "Lilith Tour" this year. Look that word up and it's Hebrew meaning, and tell me a professing Christian could do this to our Lord.

Somehow, we have forgotten who we are insulting and mocking first and foremost. They have turned the truth of God into a lie and convinced people that it is okay to sin so that "good may come". God forbid.

He is a great and dreadful God and now we fear the opinions of others, and are not willing to stand in the gap.

Dear saints, how grieved our Lord must be that we shrink when others challenge His Word by their deeds. I do not believe in screaming and hollering, but I truly believe in addressing these things with great soberness of mind.

Let us pray for those that are bold enough to hold fast to sound doctrine. May the time come when God will be able to show Himself strong on behalf of those whose hearts are perfect towards Him.

"Lilith Tour" this year. Look that word up and it's Hebrew meaning, and tell me a professing Christian could do this to our Lord.

ABSOLUTELY NOT! This is hideous, demonic...No one can embrace this mindset and be a follower of God!

SICK!!! almost makes one vomit!

Ok, so I respoded emotionally - good thing there are people who can think rationally and inform others why this thing is so ungodly...God bless you.

ginnyrose

Thanks Brothertom. It is no wonder that this nation is referred to as Sodom and Egypt.

I have been thinking about this thread for a couple of days now and wondering about something. It seems Jennifer Knapp has said that she was always this way, that she just pretended not to be "who" she is before and I think I read something along those lines about Ray Boltz as well. My question is music that they did before, should it be listened to knowing that they are living in open rebellion to God and in sin? I was thinking that all of it should be thrown out but wonder what others think? Was the christian music they wrote and sang about before ever really from the Lord or was all of it just a lie??
I myself am often shocked at how easy it is to be deceived. I keep telling my children you must be in the Bible and have daily fellowship with the Lord, you must know His voice because the enemy is always waiting to try to use and opportunity to draw us away from the Lord.

God Bless
mj

MJ Said...

"It seems Jennifer Knapp has said that she was always this way, that she just pretended not to be "who" she is before and I think I read something along those lines about Ray Boltz as well."

I would be curious to see a link or something where she said that...although I got that implication in the article that I posted in the first place and kind of derived that attitude myself just from some of the other stuff I read. There are many "Christian" bands I no longer listen to because their music is just plain filled with so much compromise and beastlyness that I mostly only listen to worship music or instrumental anymore. However, that is only me and has no bearing on anyone.

However MJ...this is an issue of conscience. If listening to her early album, which if I remember right, was pretty right on, causes you to sear your conscience in any way or harden you to being sensitive to the Spirit then by all means throw that meat sacrificed to Idols out on the street. However if you are ignorant of the light of truth, and it is simply edifying then I guess don't become un-ignorant.

However, I would lean toward throwing the worshipers of Diana into confusion, Acts 19:29. In such a way as to hear them say that we, "ought to be quite and do nothing rashly." As the town-clerk of Ephesus told Paul. This comes from being people who simply preaches the gospel in the Power of the Holy Spirit so that those who hear it are full-on confronted by their idolatry. The casting out of Idols and garbage linked to Idolatry is a fruit of the gospel reformation in peoples lives.

This sermon [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=10843&commentView=itemComments]A Time to Cry[/url] by David Legge, was the sermon that really hooked me into this website. I had randomly subscribed to the classics podcast because I found it on itunes looking for Tozer sermons. If you have not listened to it yet I could not recommend it more. I weep when I listen to this. And have heard it probably ten times now. David Legge is mourning over the fact that the sheep of God are smoking in God's anger because of the fact that the wicked have taken over the house of God. He gives a gut-wrenching, heart-felt exposition from Psalm 74 that speaks to this whole discussion very well. Take time to give it a listen...

Hope that helps MJ...if not, sorry.

In Christ.

-Jeremiah

In my post I said that Jennifer Knapp said she had always been this way and I wrote that as if it was a direct quote. I worded my post incorrectly and should have taken more care. What she said was she hoped that people would give her a chance as she breaks away from the yoke of being something she just can't be. She did talk about relationships that she had with women when she was in college that she was admonished about even though they were not physical.
Just wanted to clear that up, from the many articles out there I do think this is something she has known or had in her life for some time, it is not a new revelation for her, that was my understanding at least.

I am not the one who listened to her music actually it was my son. He told me though that he does not feel right in listening to her music any longer, but to be fair he also said he has not really listened to her stuff in awhile.
He was sorry to hear that she is so lost and we will both be praying for her.

God bless
mj

This is extremely disappointing. I never listened to her music, although I once attended a Christian conference in Dallas where she was one of the singers. My wife told me that the K-Love Christian radio station used to play one of her songs. I guess that I wouldn't know her from many other singers in the CCM scene.

I read [url=http://www.usatoday.com/communities/Religion/post/2010/04/christian-singer-jennifer-knapp-comes-out-in-interviews-with-christianity-today-advocatecom/1]this article[/url] earlier, and I found it quite disappointing.

I pray that someone will continue to reach out to her with the truth in the love of Christ. I imagine that she is still conflicted between what is obvious in the Word of God and her emotional and/or sexual feelings. Perhaps the Lord can send someone who will open her eyes to the truth.

I miss Keith Green!

so the emergent "grace" filled church has created a similar passage for all sodomites to practice their abominations sanctified before all.

Something that has been on my mind the last couple of days is kind of the polar opposite danger of these "grace" filled churches. I was listening to the Freedom compilations and trying not to cry when the thought struck me that all these testimonies were tear jerkers. They were all tragic stories. I got to thinking where are the stories of people who lived good, didn't drink, didn't smoke, didn't "browse" the internet and yet were just as lost as those who did do those things? Where are conversion testimonies of "good" people? We are saved through by grace through faith and not by works. There will be many people in hell who lived more compassionate lives than some Christians.

What is frightening to me about the emergent church's acceptance of sin is that people who don't sin on a regular basis are going to view themselves as a lock to get to heaven. And yet what may be their one sin is the same sin keeping all out of relationship with God, and that is unbelief. "Depart from Me, I never knew you".

How do you tell someone that they are dangling over the pit when they are "better" than most christians, and the homosexuals and adulterers are getting to heaven?

Matt

I had some friends a few years back that went to the dove awards and said they were all drinking and smoking and partying just like the world. They were highly disappointed, which say yes, we do make idols out of them.

The answer is of course, come out from amoung them and be ye separate, touch not the unclean thing.

We are called to worship God in spirit and truth. Do we make our voices ever so lovely, so people will hear it around us, or do we humble ourselves and worship so only God will hear it. It has become no different then the entertainment industry. While our fellow believes might be impressed by the grandeur of the sound, God only hears if the heart is right. He doesn't receive uncertain sounds.

Jennifer Knapp: “I think it’s going to be shocking and feel like a betrayal to some people who live their spiritual lives through the music they listen to,” Knapp told the LGBT publication.” Source: http://www.christianpost.com/article/20100413/jennifer-knapp-returns-to-christian-music-scene-confirms-her-sexuality/index.html

PEOPLE WHO LIVE THEIR SPIRITUAL LIVES THROUGH THE MUSIC THEY LISTEN TOO: That is a very telling phrase. Perhaps this is another reason there is such a fight over admitting this “contemporary music” as praise and worship. There do seem to be whole radio stations devoted to this kind of music that do not play sermons at all. I thought that odd before reading the above quote. I wonder locally how many involved in the music of their churches are deep into the study of His Word. Knowing precedes understanding and obeying.

Neither grace nor salvation is just forgiveness. I wondered at how little acknowledgement was given in a previous revival conference to the definition of grace that was given as IMPARTED ENABLING. This definition, in contrast to the popular one, puts an end to “grace in the service of lawlessness.”

MaryJane”s question makes me shutter: “Was the christian music they wrote and sang about before ever really from the Lord or was all of it just a lie??” (who the author, what the anointing, missing pieces of the gospel). I am beginning to understand perspectives on this music that once seemed extreme.

And while all of this (DAYS OF LOT) is going on we have the oblivion of “AS IN THE DAYS OF NOAH”: churches meeting to debate the color of the carpet, guidelines for wedding and VBS decorations, pot lucks. Matthew 24:37-39 : “But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,”

Over the past weeks threads on Swaggart, IHOP, Rick Warren, etc., along with this thread highlight to me want looks like a wide-spread sin we rarely discuss. Who/what is being lifted up? Who/what is being run after (followed). I think the same thing goes for this year's “prophet” and this year's “apostle.” How can running after IHOP be any different from running after Lakeland. I think the same way about LIFTING UP/RUNNING AFTER born-again believers that met with God in His Word and have something to say about it when the Saints gather (the one who preaches), or who have written out truths the Holy Spirit has revealed in their daily life (commentaries). I also sometimes wonder if many exchange a week of fellowship in the Word for a 30-60 minute sermon, thinking they benefit from another's labor. Is that attempted spiritual theft? (If you have noticed how stolen money quickly disappears, this could explain why few can recall what was preached.)

Just so there is no confusion, I understand being hungry for fellowship, in the unity of the Holy Spirit and finding it in books and tapes, in prayer and gatherings. Discerning the Body is a needful part of communion.

JoanM,

It seems to me the reason so many folks are snookered into the whorl of deception by ungodly folks is because we have become too infatuated with entertainment.

These professional entertainers know how to manipulate a crowd. The entire gambit of performance is to get your money and more the better.

Knowing all this, why do we find it appealing?

ginnyrose

A.W. Tozer once said the Church is only as strong as her conception of God is.

I believe the Church is as strong as the music she listens to. For music, by its very nature, is passive education. You receive the outworking of the author's soul [and whatever else that contains] readily, with little resistance.

The enemy of our souls knows this, hence, the flood of fluffy, 'applesauce' love songs that do little to help a person or congregation worship the Lord, God Almighty.

May the Lord have mercy on Jennifer Knapp and us all. Let him that thinks he stands, take heed, lest he fall.

A.W. Tozer once said the Church is only as strong as her conception of God is.

This is so true Theophila. Our people are dying for a lack of knowledge. If we do not gnosis God, how dare we speak for Him? We can only articulate the things of God with power through an excellence of epignosis. Our concept of God as American Christians has fallen out the front door, slid down the driveway, into the gutter, and out into the wash. Where it is now foaming out its shame, crashing against the Pacific, and sloshing against the Atlantic seaboard.

The frothiness with which we have marketed God, as if he were to be dispensed in a Slurpee Machine at the corner 7-11, has reaped us such a cheap convenience store reward.

For a couple of days, I was starting to slightly regret posting this, because I did not want to see Jennifer harpooned when I did not really know enough of the specifics about the situation. Now having heard her side (on the Larry King live show through youtube) of the argument...it's open season to deal with the issues.

First off, Jennifer reveals what is in her heart as she over and over again trips over calling herself a "Person of Faith." If you notice when you watch it, she starts to defend calling herself a "Christian," on numerous occasions, but is unnable to complete the word. "Person of faith is far more nebulous and fits the Bill of a religious person, as opposed to a sheep who knows the voice of their shepherd.

Secondly, Jennifer's main justification for her behavior revolved around the fact that no one can accurately translate a "Sacred Holy Text." The greek words used, that we translate, "homosexual" or "effeminate," are not clear enough for us to be certain that we can lambaste homosexuals.

Let us just suppose for a moment that this is true...maybe that term is sketchy. The question that is raised in my mind is why have any discussion whatsoever that revolves around the use of scripture to either negate or defend such a lifestyle? The fact of the matter is that the whole conversation revolved, from her standpoint, around a book that no one is able to understand or to translate to her satisfaction! Why not just throw the book out? Again this leads me back to my questioning I started to pose halfway through the thread, why? Why not just deny the faith?

I saw that serpent Larry King, coil around Jennifer and caress her ignorance (willful or not I do not know) and fuel her lust as he asked a Pastor from Horizon Christian Fellowship whether or not God created Homosexuality. As if the existence of Sin justifies it in God's sight. God is NOT the author of sin, Romans 9:14 "What shall we say then? is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid." The questions Larry asked of the Pastor were nothing but a rusty old echo from his father...Genesis 3:1.

The Pastor Bob Botsford was wise to emphasize the woman caught in the act of Adultery and stating that he does in no way condemn her but Jesus told the woman to go and sin no more, however, Jennifer's rebutle was that Homosexuality is not clearly defined as a sin in the Bible.

Then Ted Haggard got on and turned the whole of Gods grace into a buffet gravy that covers every sin and we need God's grace because we all sin all day all the time all day long...and that is what he stated that grace was for.

Therein, the Slurpee is drunk, and evangelicalism is drunk on it...

Verily verily, "There are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ." Jude 4

Lastly, Spiros Zhodiates does a great job defining the greek words for effeminate and "abusers of themselves with mankind," 1Corinthians 6:9 as men of soft clothing who lie with one another in beds...it is pretty simple, even a fool can understand what the slang meant. Paul was often so ashamed of what people did in darkness that he said, "And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. (Which I hope we are doing here in the Spirit) For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret." Ephesians 5:11-12. Paul may have used slang to get his points across in 1 Corinthians because it was so shameful and reprehensible to even use the common terminology. This could also be why Paul was a bit vague in Galatians 2:4 when he says that "False brethren came in unawares brought in who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage." Here he is subtly saying that the Judaizers snuck into the bathroom to see if Titus was circumsized or not. Yet it is shameful to even speak of such things loudly or commonly.

Homosexuality is clearly a sin according to scripture but here is the catch, and here is why our sins as a nation are foaming against our shores...and here is why we need to repent...why I need to repent, and how God can begin the healing process if there is even hope that we have not started to see the great apostasy. Ezekiel 16:49 says, "Behold, this was the iniquity of they sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good." Wait a second...how far down the list was "abomination?" Let me count...1 2 3 4 5th down! How many of us have repented of those first four sins? How many of us are seething with spiritual pride? How many of us waste innordinate amounts of time on pointlessness and mediocrity? How many of us glut ourselves and deny the poor their just due from Christian love? And yet we pompously declare homosexuals to be the scarlet letter bearers of our day.

We should all start wearing the scarlet letter "P" to our shame, and repent of such things. Even writing this, I struggle to admit my own failings. "If MY PEOPLE who are called by MY NAME shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land." 2Chronicles 7:14 Does this verse now have any new meaning for any of you? Does it have enough meaning for me?

O God help us...please we need you.

May we repent and begin singing Psalms, Hymns and Spiritual songs which flow from a deep well of repentance. May our roots run deep into the river of life, that we will not "walk in the counsel of the ungodly, nor stand in the way of sinners, nor sit in the seat of the scornful." Psalm 1:1

In the spirit of Art Katz I would say that the issue of a failed evangelicalism, is the issue of the remnant...and unless we as a people can apprehend intercessory repentance...we may just become complicit partakers of the wickedness of the daughter of Sodom! In that, we may be participant to the predecessor of abomination, as stated in the above verse from Ezekiel.

How do we confront sin without making people offended?

You don't. The Word of God is foolishness to those who are perishing. Their offense is our clue we are on the right track. I don't think it matters how kind and gentle you are, although we should be kind, gentle and firm, if someone has a light shined on their sin they will be offended.

What wonderful wisdom is flowing from the Holy Spirit in this thread. Areadymind and Brothertom spot on.

I just want to add that in the past I had the opportunity to witness to a bi-sexual man that claimed he was a christian. After much debate about the scriptures, I finally felt led to say to him, I am asking you to ask God if what you are doing is OK with Him. Pray that if what your are doing is sin that He will deliver you from it. He then told me he couldn't pray that prayer. You see he didn't want to part with his sin, he just wanted to add "God" as a bandaide to his sin. After that we parted ways because he had made his choice.

This sermon [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=10843&commentView=itemComments]A Time to Cry[/url] by David Legge, was the sermon that really hooked me into this website. I had randomly subscribed to the classics podcast because I found it on itunes looking for Tozer sermons. If you have not listened to it yet I could not recommend it more. I weep when I listen to this. And have heard it probably ten times now. David Legge is mourning over the fact that the sheep of God are smoking in God's anger because of the fact that the wicked have taken over the house of God. He gives a gut-wrenching, heart-felt exposition from Psalm 74 that speaks to this whole discussion very well. Take time to give it a listen...

A quote from the this sermon, "God can overwhelm what overwhelms you."

The problem is that not many realize that they are being overwhelmed. Wake up you sleeping Church. By giving grace where grace has not yet been poured out is pulling the rug out from under God's power. We are telling people they don't need God. God can overwhelm what overwhelms the world, but not if it hasn't had the Light shined upon it. Humanity always has and always will seek something outside of itself. Drugs, drink, sex, whatever, is where people are turning. Those are desires of the heart that God give them over to. That desire is not ever met in this form so God again gives them over, but this time to degrading passions, exchanging "normal" lust for degrading lust. Why wouldn't they seek these things when the church is asking them to give money to something that doesn't have the power to change ANYTHING. We've denied God His reward by dispensing HIS grace and judging those who are His to judge. Judge not also means judging someone saved from something they have no desire (or knowledge of) to be saved from.

For me the major issue here is that some of the "church" is condoning said behavior. Calling good evil, and evil good.

While I too continue to love those who have any of these sins embraced, I also know that we need to take a stand for righteousness, not in a self righteous way, lest we also fall, but in a I love my brother enough to speak the truth to him way so he becomes a brother.

Wednesdy night my pastor mentioned this coming out event and also said what if we think we were born with a desire towards children or animals? Will we feel justified to pursue our lust in that area and use as an excuse, I was born with that tendency? What about murder? Sin is sin and we all need to repent of our sin. There is a long list of sins mentioned in Romans 1 along with Sodom's sin and we need to check our own hearts in each area. However this thread is about what is becoming acceptable in the church and in this we need to take a stand.

The man I mentioned went to a "church" that made that totally acceptable. In the end he really separated himself from me because I told him what the word said and wouldn't soft soap it.

So far this thread has been very civil and I appreciate everyone's commentary. I do not know if this article could change the direction, but I am only posting it to emphasize the idea that it will become increasingly common to view sin as a virtue. And the Bible will be used to promote it. And each one of us are going to stand out more and more in stark relief to the darkness pervading our world, as the Day Star arises in our hearts. The Bible is being used to promote wickedness. I suppose this has happened in certain sects historically but has it ever happened on such a massive scale, so out in the open, and so promoted by so many? And even what we consider "so many" may be a paltry sum compared to what it appears to be becoming.

[url=http://www.beloitdailynews.com/articles/2010/04/29/news/local_news/news2908.txt]Preacher Debunks Damnation Theories. [/url]

I also wanted to say that I agree that anyone can be saved, anyone can repent. Even Paul could, however I think the main point of this thread has been more to explore the idea of how wickedness is being turned into a virtue in the public's eye through the use of people whom call themselves, "Christians." I have no doubt the Spirit is able to convert anyone whom is steeped in homosexuality, or any other sin there is for that matter. The main concern I have however is over those whom have been "Christians," who drag many little ones into the sea with them as their millstones cause them to plummet to the depths of hell. All the while such death is celebrated.

I just started reading "The Road to Reality," By K.P. Yohannan, and I loved how he opened the book with this statement. "We lost it. Somewhere along our journey from a dead religion of laws and guilt, we modern Christians have misplaced the other side of grace. It was undoubtedly left beside the road with the best of motives. I'm sure that most of those who abandoned reality sincerely wanted to display the immeasurable love of God to a lost and needy world. But we have failed to reveal the wonderful grace of Jesus we sing about with obedience in our everyday lives. Instead, we have produced an "old dishwater" kind of religion--that insipid, lukewarm faith that Jesus said He would spew out of His mouth!"

He says later, "We've been taught to serve up a watered-down gospel for so long that the real gospel has become an embarrassment."

I agree, we are reaping the fruit now of a sloppily presented gospel...

Will this generation of true believers pick up the torch? Or are we going to leave it lying on the cave floor, content to spelunk aimlessly the rest of our lives?

Quotes from: "The Road to Reality," K.P. Yohannan, Creation House publications, second printing, April 1989. Copyright 1988 by K.P. Yohannan

Yet another article to be added to the list.

A man was arrested for commenting to a passerby that homosexuality was a sin when he was asked, upon doing so he was arrested and detained in prison...this happened in the U.K. He spent seven hours in prison.

[url=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/7668448/Christian-preacher-arrested-for-saying-homosexuality-is-a-sin.html]Christian Preacher Arrested for Saying Homosexuality is a Sin. [/url]

Daniel chapter nine is what we do codek...we pray prayers of repentance for our wayward people, even if we are not involved with it ourselves. Daniel received vision from God when he repented on behalf of his own people, though his own sin was never mentioned.

It has come to my attention this week that there is a dominionist doctrine of "intercessory repentance" being propagated by the Apostles of the New Reformation. In no way, was I trying to advocate what they mean by that teaching. I was only attempting to discover what the non-Pharisaical attitude of the heart should be when we see others deceived by the craftiness of sin.

I was concerned that we do not allow the iniquity abounding within what many consider to be the church, to cause the love in our hearts to grow cold. I would in no way advocate that me praying for mercy on others whom are making me to hate "even the garment spotted by the flesh," is equal to them repenting. Or even my nation repenting. Such a thought seems reprehensible to me.

However I learned to be a bit more careful with my words, but certainly after learning this, I started thinking about the nature of attitudinal heresy, and how much it robs us of as believers. Some times it seems as if these kinds of things make us react and go overboard the wrong way. Almost as if heresy is not just heresy for its own sake, but that it causes a hardening of our own hearts toward the real deep truth of a matter...in other words heresy is not always necessarily for the purpose of use by the heretic, as much as it is and can be for the purpose of tricking a believer out of God's best intentions for them. Is that not the more crafty purpose? (I am only postulating here, any thoughts in opposition are welcomed. All this just made me ponder these things today.)

I still think that Daniel, and Jesus, and Moses, and Abraham were right to pray for mercy on sinners, and to intercede on their behalf, and to include oneself in that lump. Jesus prayed that his executioners would be forgiven from the cross, where he became sin. Moses interceded so many times on behalf of a wayward Israel, Daniel included himself among the transgressors whom had turned their back on God. Abraham prayed that Sodom would be saved, and the Lord capitulated to the degree that there were even a few left righteous within the city.

I will not throw the baby out with the bathwater just because some people kneed truth into their bread of lies. This whole thing is proof positive to me that the need for us to be wise as serpents and gentle as doves in these days is more applicable than ever.

My purpose is not to sit here and analyze the false teaching, or to start a whole new branch (about dominionism) in this thread. I am sure that you can do some research and find out what I am talking about, (as it pertains to dominionist ideology) if you are that interested.

If someone however does want to discuss dominionism I ask kindly that another thread is started, as I am not really interested in that particular discussion because it could lead to a curious loophole in the forum rules. (As dominionism mixes church and state with the intention of having Christians force ideology politically.)