Is It Wrong For Christians To Watch Boxing & Mixed Martial Arts?

I work with a few Christians who enjoy watching those things and have all kinds of rationalizations and justifications for it. I lean heavily toward the view that it is sinful and a symptom of lukewarmness, but I haven't really been able to make a good case biblically or persuasively. Any help would be appreciated.
Oracio

Here was a thread where we discussed this once.

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Jesus told us to love our enemies...is that not enough?

Gen 6:11
"The earth was ruined in the sight of God; the earth was filled with violence." first world was destroyed because of violence.this 1 point is enough for me not to spend my time watching and enjoying it.

thanks Areadymind. just finished reading the thread and found it very helpful.

I was talking with a co-worker the other day. He was telling me about a program that is on TV, I think it was called Sparticus? It had something to do with fighting anyway.

He made a point about how one of the popular elements of this 'show' was the way the screen freezes in on when blood is shed? Is that right?

I wrote something down probably about two years ago. I happened to come across it the other day looking for something else. I suppose it will be alright to share it here.

The Romans used to watch men kill each other, and they called it sport. Who was it that saved us from such madness? Was it Mohammed? Was it Buddha? Or Krishna? Witchcraft? Satanism? Humanisim? Higher education, or the welfare state?

And will you find it entertaining again?

Ohh people who have heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ, Ohh land that has recieved His salvation for so long, will you now say unto HIm

"give us Barabbas instead"?

Ohh people who have heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ, Ohh land that has recieved His salvation for so long, will you now say unto HIm

"give us Barabbas instead"?

They chose a murderer and a thief.

My husband and I used to watch boxing before I got saved. Now I can't watch violence of that sort any more. To see some guy getting his face beat to a bloody pulp is offensive to me. Also knowing that many of these men suffered brain damage is enough to not participate in it. I know Jesus went through beatings, but that is totally different than sport. How does boxing fit in with loving your brother.

odandoval:

In your discussion with these Christians, the question of "is it wrong" is in my opinion the wrong question. The very fact that we would phrase a question in the form of, "is it wrong to..." concerns me very much. This question is basically the same as asking, "Can I legally do this without fear of consequence. Is this legally permissable?"

Does it edify me spiritually to...?
Does it tend toward more Godliness if I...?

These are to me more pertinent and appropriate questions. I desire to do the things that build me up spiritually and cause me to grow in my walk with God and to avoid the things that don't.

I don't like watching those kinds of things. But I don't think my preference is the gauge by which I measure things. I see no scriptures that plainly speak to it. But what is the benefit? Paul said, "All things are lawful, but not all things edify me."

Travis

Oracio,

Seems to me you got a lot of excellent points on this issue on this thread.

Mind if I take this issue one step further? In my walk with the LORD I am finding literature where violence is the accepted norm very offensive. It is where people live with it, tolerate it with no conscience against it. Some of these books are even called Christian novels. I know in order for a book to keep a writer's interest there must be some tension which is why I tend to go for children's literature. Biographies/autobiographies are also edifying. I got one this morning: "Lead, Kindly Light" by Helen Grace Lescheid. Looks like an interesting read.

Have a blessed day!

ginnyrose

twayneb wrote:

Does it edify me spiritually to...?

Does it tend toward more Godliness if I...?[/quote

twayneb I understand your point. My concern is that these Christians will bring up objections like, "isn't there a place for fun and recreation which is not directly spiritually edifying, such as going to the park with your wife and children, going to the beach, etc. These things are not directly spiritual but not sinful either, and there is a place for them."
And there are many other objections that they bring up. As soon as you try to share with them that it does not bring glory to Christ and that it is sinful they label you as a legalist or Pharisee.
I think some of the most compelling arguments against it biblically is that it is full of violence and that it does not show love toward you neighbor.
But then they come back and say that many fighters do not fight with violence in their minds but simply with improving their combating skills, etc. To me that's a bunch of hog wash and shows lukewarmness at best.

"But then they come back and say that many fighters do not fight with violence in their minds but simply with improving their combating skills, etc. To me that's a bunch of hog wash and shows lukewarmness at best."

I recently had the opportunity to talk with one of these fighters about the Gospel and the Lord Jesus. It was on Good Friday past. He was handing out cards to promote his upcoming fight. Me and another Christian were handing out cards about the Bible and the Lord Jesus.

During the course of the conversation I asked him if he ever was afraid. He said he did get afraid but that was part of what he liked about fighting, to stand up to his fear and the feeling he got when he won.

Whatever is in the heart of the people fighting really isn't at issue for us. What is in our hearts if we watch it, is.

When it says in the New Testament, that love edifies, the word means there to be a house builder, to construct.

Fighting like this is the antithesis of building up in love. It is tearing down, deconstructing, destructive. It builds up one in the pride of life and the power of the flesh and it tears down the other through shame and the humiliation of defeat.

But if tearing down, then tearing down what?

Remember brothers, one of the most basic of truths of the Bible, and something that gives us great inspiration as creatures, but also great responsibility - that we are made in the image of God?

Now I myself believe that the scripture teaches there is a rightfull and sometimes nesessary use of force and violence in this world. I realise others will disagree with that. But I hope that we would all as Christians believe this: that there is never a place for enjoying it.

In Psalm 11 David says that the Lord hates those that love violence, and in Psalm 68 David petitions God to scatter those that delight in war.

Can we justify delighting in watching the image of God be crushed under fists and feet?

It is one thing to do harm out of an obligation to duty or justice, but can it be justified to do it with glee? For sport? For THRILL?

Well, it obviously is becoming popular.

I happened to go to a mall today. I haven't been to one in several years and had no intention of going there today but for whatever reason I got it in my mind to go to a certain one today to get something. I didn't find what I was looking for there, but on the way out I did notice a store.

The name of the store was called "Fists of Fury". And from the looks of the merchandise it was related somehow to this kind of fighting.

For the longest time, the slogan has always been 'sex sells'.

Now I guess 'blood' is being added to that too.

And can you imagine Paul, Peter, John, Isaiah, Jeremiah engaging in this sport?

How about Jesus, can you imagine him participating in these sports? Why?

Can you imagine asking God to help you beat the other guy up?

I also wonder much about the emotions that drives a person to bloody another...I would guess it wouldn't be holy, do you think so?

Perhaps the answers to these questions should be able to teach us, as well. And besides, when folks work to justify a questionable activity you already know they have wrestled in their conscience about this issue. So, the probability to convince them intellectually is not all that great - takes the Holy Spirit to accomplish this.

Just my two cents...

ginnyrose

twayneb I understand your point. My concern is that these Christians will bring up objections like, "isn't there a place for fun and recreation which is not directly spiritually edifying, such as going to the park with your wife and children, going to the beach, etc. These things are not directly spiritual but not sinful either, and there is a place for them." And there are many other objections that they bring up. As soon as you try to share with them that it does not bring glory to Christ and that it is sinful they label you as a legalist or Pharisee. I think some of the most compelling arguments against it biblically is that it is full of violence and that it does not show love toward you neighbor. But then they come back and say that many fighters do not fight with violence in their minds but simply with improving their combating skills, etc. To me that's a bunch of hog wash and shows lukewarmness at best.

I know the reaction. People who don't understand what legalism really is try to redefine it to mean, "anything that I want to do that you are telling me is unGodly." Ironic that the point I was trying to make is that asking the question, "is it wrong to..." is in itself an appeal to legalism. It is as though I am trying to find out what I can get away with according to the law and still have God be pleased with me.

As I alluded to in the first post, I don't think the problem here is whether to watch fighting or not to watch fighting. You might convince these guys that they hadn't ought to do that from scripture, and you might convince them to the point that they stop watching it, but what is the motivation of their heart in the thing? If my walk with God is built around keeping laws or rules in order to please God and gain heaven, I am a legalist, a pharisee if you will. I will make my decisions, ultimately, based on fear of eternal retribution or loss of eternal reward. This does not come out of the love of God, but out of fear of punishment. There is a fear of God, but it is not the fear of punishment. There is no fear in love. Perfect love casts out all fear. These guys are not motivated by the love of God, but rather by the legal ramifications of their actions. So the problem is not what they are watching. The problem is what is in their hearts that causes them to react the way they do. I am not so sure trying to convince them of the right or wrong of their actions is the solution. I think praying that God will open their eyes to what is in their own hearts is the solution.

Just a thought.

Travis

The problem is what is in their hearts that causes them to react the way they do. I am not so sure trying to convince them of the right or wrong of their actions is the solution. I think praying that God will open their eyes to what is in their own hearts is the solution.

Amen, I agree. That's what it's going to come down to I guess. I originally posted this thread because they asked me where I stood on that issue last week. At the time I was not prepared to give a clear answer, so I just said I don't know but I know that it's a stumbling block to many believers. After doing a little Scriptural research and consulting my brethren here I know where I stand.

The best argument I've heard from proponents of this entertainment comes from the above Scripture. Paul says,
"Therfore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air;
Proponents of this enjoyment say that Paul is alluding to the fighting that was enjoyed as entertainment during those days. They say in essence, "See, Paul obviously was not against fighting as a form of competition or entertainment. If he was he would not compare it to the Christian walk. If it was sinful he would not do that, in the same way that he would not compare murder or rape to the Christian walk."
I can think of a few ways to refute that argument, but I wanted to see if anyone could through some light on that argument.

correction, i meant to say "throw some light".

I have said on numerous occasions that given a mind to do so, anyone can justify their carnal activity some way by using scripture to do so. What is going to matter in the end is were we workmen who rightly divided or handled the word of God so as to be workman whom need not to be ashamed?

Some people have used the passage where David loved Jonathan as a justification for being effeminate (even though it is a total abuse of the passage.) If someone is using scripture in a way that justifies their natural lusts and cravings then there is a chance that they have gone the way of Balaam, Korah, or Cain.

I could make a total case, if I was in a carnal state of mind, that God encourages incest and drunkeness because he saved Lot and his daughters out of Sodom...and God obviously has foreknowledge of everything, so seeing into the future God decided to save Lot's family so that they could engage in lewd, base behavior...noone would make that stupid of an assertion, unless of course...I wanted to justify natural lusts. Balaam wanted over and over again to justify his lust for money, time after time he begged God to let him do it. And I like what Ravi Zacharias says..."God stepped aside and seconded his motion."

Paul's knowledge of the workings of Roman/Greco sporting was not a condoning of it. He was simply using it as a metaphor to emphasize a point.

Here is where I would draw the line of your argument Osandoval. The reason Paul inserts this metaphor into Corinthians is because he is talking about what lengths he was willing to go to to get the gospel out. He was talking about the fact that the gospel meant more to him than the value he was permitted to earn a living off of it. He was willing to forego income for the sake of the Gospel. His reward was to preach the gospel itself. He was talking about being free of the tyranny of men because of the gospel, yet because the gospel meant so much he became the servant of all men. He was becoming weak to win men.

If your friends who are using this passage to justify carnal entertainment have completely become BOND-SLAVES to the gospel of Jesus Christ and live hand to mouth...completely in rags, city to city with rocks being thrown in their face, never knowing when they are going to get their next meal...and they are seeing thousands upon thousands of people not only saved, but idols are crashing and burning all over places like in Ephesus, then by all means...in what little leisure time they have remaining...(if they can even see at all considering they have poor eyesight like Paul possibly did) then they can go partake of men bashing each others face in to oblivion.

If that does not work, I guess I would go to Galatians Chapter five where Paul says that the workers of "hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, and sedition's..." will never ever ever see the kingdom of God.

If you look up all those words in Zhodiates Greek word study dictionary...it is amazing the insight you get into how much God hates fighting. I am sure that applies verbally as well as physically. Secondly the sermon on the mount seems to really destroy the idea of partaking in violence. If you do not have a Zhodiates...and would like me to, I could take the time to type all those word definitions out...it would just take some time.

Hope that is a help brother. God Bless

-Jeremiah

Here is a general principle that I go by when it comes to watching things:

Would I, myself, do what the actors or people are doing (in some cases I might have to add, if I was able)? If the answer is absolutely not, then maybe I shouldn't watch it. Why would I enjoy watching something that I wouldn't do? Could it be because I really would like to do it? Is it in my heart? (EDIT: in other words, am I enjoying watching others sin?)

I would watch something like a documentary and say that no, I wouldn't do the things the people are doing in it. However I would do the research about a certain historical situation so to me those type of things are different.

Areadymind, thanks for the input and offer. I actually do have the same dictionary you mentioned and will do the study on those words.
agape.

"I box in such a way, as not beating the air"

Many things that God has created or that are in this world have a good and or lawfull and natural purpose.

The distinctive mark of the work of Satan is to corrupt that which was once otherwise usefull, or lawfull, or good.

He is the father of lies, which are themselves a corruption of truth.

He is a murderer which is itself the unlawfull destruction of life.

He would take covenant and break it.

He would take marriage and divide it.

He would take sex and sell it or make it cheap.

And he would take the sometimes nescessary use of violence and make it a sport.

He would take lust and feed it untill it is lust for blood.

In the other thread that was listed here, there is a qoute from Pastor Wurmbrand about Marxisim and revolution. He suggests that 'violence to the point of paroxysm' is one thing that 'distinguishes Satanism from ordinary human sinfulness.' In other words, pointless, violence for the sake of violence itself.

Paul's use of the fighting metaphor is exactly the opposite, it is fighting, lawfull fighting, not to obtain an earthly crown of victory by crushing your human foe, but putting his body into subjection, to obtain the crown of life.

Just got through reading the below comments from Matthew Henry's Commentary, and thought it's a great exhortation for us. I thought it went along the same lines as Areadymind and ChrisJD just pointed out.

1 CORINTHIANS 9:24-27
THE APOSTLE'S DEVOTEDNESS
In these verses the apostle hints at the great encouragement he had to act in this manner. He had a glorious prize, an incorruptible crown, in view. Upon this head he compares himself to the racers and combatants in the Isthmian games, an allusion well known to the Corinthians, because they were celebrated in their neighbourhood: “Know you not that those who run in a race run all, but one obtaineth the prize? v. 24. All run at your games, but only one gets the race and wins the crown.” And here, I. He excites them to their duty: “So run that you may obtain. It is quite otherwise in the Christian race than in your races; only one wins the prize in them. You may all run so as to obtain. You have great encouragement, therefore, to persist constantly, and diligently, and vigorously, in your course. There is room for all to get the prize. You cannot fail if you run well. Yet there should be a noble emulation; you should endeavour to outdo one another. And it is a glorious contest who shall get first to heaven, or have the best rewards in that blessed world. I make it my endeavour to run; so do you, as you see me go before you.” Note, It is the duty of Christians to follow their ministers closely in the chase of eternal glory, and the honour and duty of ministers to lead them in the way. II. He directs them in their course, by setting more fully to view his own example, still carrying on the allusion. 1. Those that ran in their games were kept to a set diet: “Every man that strives for the mastery is temperate in all things, v. 23. The fighters and wrestlers in your exercises are kept to strict diet and discipline; nay, they keep themselves to it. They do not indulge themselves, but restrain themselves from the food they eat and so from the liberties they use on other occasions. And should not Christians much more abridge themselves of their liberty, for so glorious an end as winning the race, and obtaining the prize set before them? They used a very spare diet, and course food, and denied themselves much, to prepare for their race and combat; so do I; so should you, after my example. It is hard if, for the heavenly crown, you cannot abstain from heathen sacrifices.” 2. They were not only temperate, but inured themselves to hardships. Those who fought with one another in these exercises prepared themselves by beating the air, as the apostle calls it, or by throwing out their arms, and thereby inuring themselves, beforehand, to deal about their blows in close combat, or brandish them by way of flourish. There is no room for any such exercise in the Christian warfare. Christians are ever in close combat. There enemies make fierce and hearty opposition, and are ever at hand; and for this reason they must lay about them in earnest, and never drop the contest, nor flag and faint in it. They must fight, not as those that beat the air, but must strive against their enemies with all their might. One enemy the apostle here mentions, namely, the body; this must be kept under, beaten black and blue, as the combatants were in these Grecian games, and thereby brought into subjection. By the body we are to understand fleshly appetites and inclinations. These the apostle set himself to curb and conquer, and in this the Corinthians were bound to imitate him. Note, Those who would aright pursue the interests of their souls must beat down their bodies, and keep them under. They must combat hard with fleshly lusts, and not indulge a wanton appetite, and long for heathenish sacrifices, nor eat them, to please their flesh, at the hazard of their brethren's souls. The body must be made to serve the mind, not suffered to lord over it. III. The apostle presses this advice on the Corinthians by proper arguments drawn from the same contenders. 1. They take pains, and undergo all those hardships, to obtain a corruptible crown (v. 25), but we an incorruptible. Those who conquered in these games were crowned only with the withering leaves or boughs of trees, of olive, bays, or laurel. But Christians have an incorruptible crown in view, a crown of glory that never fadeth away, an inheritance incorruptible, reserved in heaven for them. And would they yet suffer themselves to be outdone by these racers or wrestlers? Can they use abstinence in diet, exert themselves in racing, expose their bodies to so much hardship in a combat, who have no more in view than the trifling huzzas of a giddy multitude, or a crown of leaves? And shall not Christians, who hope for the approbation of the sovereign Judge, and a crown of glory from his hands, stretch forward in the heavenly race, and exert themselves in beating down their fleshly inclinations, and the strongholds
of sin?

...gotta love Matthew Henry. Great commentary. I am going to have to do a bit of research on the Isthmian games. I had never heard that term before, thank you. Helpful! The company of Matthew Henry leaves one not wanting much.

You got me thinking along some interesting lines Osandoval. Here we are rightly dividing a metaphor that is intended to make a spiritual point, based in doctrinal truth. It is interesting that we are arguing against the use of the metaphor itself as the base truth to be promoted. Could it be possible that an indication of a persons spiritual state, is the tendency to turn biblical metaphor into doctrine, and to turn doctrine into metaphor? Or the tendency to base decisions on narrative that one assumes the Bible is placing a seal of approval on, when in fact it is just stating the occurrence as something that happened in history and was significant because it was an action connected in some way to the bloodline of the Messiah?

For example: I am reading a book Greg Gordon recommended on Hell right now and in it the author debunks all arguments against turning the doctrine of Hell into a metaphor. Yet it would not surprise me to see those same people turning a metaphor about fighting into a justification of their lust for violence, and then making a doctrinal dogmatic statement about its beneficial warrant.

Now that I think about it, I have seen this happen so many times. However I am only asking the question here, not necessarily concluded...it is just a curious trail of thinking. It is the justification of Christ that we are to seek, not the justification for doing things that are sketchy, under the banner of His grace, because of justification.

I was listening to Zac Poonen the other day and he said something that was so groundbreaking for me. It was both convicting and humorous. He was talking about how people justify depression because Elijah struggled with depression, or because Jonah was stubborn we to may struggle with being stubborn. He gave a couple other examples along that line, then just said..."Did Elijah die for your sins? Did Jonah?" I am paraphrasing, but it was something along those lines. Certainly made me do a U-turn in my thinking as well as removed a strain of maudlin theology.

Good thoughts Chris. I like the line about sometime necessary violence and make it a sport. Clarifying.

hi, yes

THE ARGUMENT PRESENTED:

"See, Paul obviously was not against fighting as a form of competition or entertainment. If he was he would not compare it to the Christian walk. If it was sinful he would not do that, in the same way that he would not compare murder or rape to the Christian walk."

THE ARGUMENT REFUTED:

Not only has the christian walk been alluded to using the illustration of war and warfare,

(1 Tim. 1:18 This charge I commit to thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mayest war a good warfare)

but the very Kingdom of God in Jesus' parable is compared or likened to slavery

(Matt. 18:23 Because of this the kingdom of Heaven has been compared to a man, a king, who desired to take account with his slaves).

Are these(above)used as prooftexts by these same men for the sanctioning of war and slavery? Is Paul appealed to to support the same? If not,why not?

Here are just a few of the many verses which could be cited:

Philippians 1:1 Paul, and Timothy, slaves of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, with the overseers and ministers:

1 Pet 2:16 Live as free persons, yet not using such freedom as a covering or, excuse for evil, but as slaves of God.

Eph 6:10-17 Finally, my brothers, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. Put on the full armor of God, so that you may be able to stand against the stratagems of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual forces of evil in the heavenlies. Because of this, take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having accomplished all things, to stand. Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness,
and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; above all, taking up the shield of faith, with which you will be able to quench all the flaming arrows of the evil one. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

Paul does not advocate kick-boxing in 1 Cor. 9:26 any more than he advocates sword-fighting in Eph. 6:17 when he compares our Holy Bible to a sword.

HEAR HIM.
Matt. 17:5

Could it be possible that an indication of a persons spiritual state, is the tendency to turn biblical metaphor into doctrine, and to turn doctrine into metaphor? Or the tendency to base decisions on narrative that one assumes the Bible is placing a seal of approval on, when in fact it is just stating the occurrence as something that happened in history and was significant because it was an action connected in some way to the bloodline of the Messiah?

Jeremiah I think you are onto something true there. If these Christians are saved, it can be an indication of their immaturity. If they are not, it's an indication of their lost condition.

Savannah, good post. I think the argument you brought up regarding slavery would be hard to refute. Now the one about warfare, I can think of how it would open up another can of worms; some Christians are all for wars and are even in the military. They use Romans 13 as a justification. I lean heavily toward the view that Christians should take no part in that. I'd like to get some input on that issue as well, either on this thread or a new one devoted to that issue. Thanks.

If you have seen it, you will know why it is popular, even among Christians, especially men. it is another form of PORN, disguised as neo-Roman cable TV. Because it is cable, there are no TV ratings and almost anything goes. Forget about the fighting. the nudity and "soft porn" is what makes it popular. When I had cable a while ago, I turned it on to see a depiction of a popular Roman past-time, which was for those with slaves and gladiators to force them to have sex while they watched.......which i was watching...not for long. Like I said, I used to have cable.

Satan has many disguises. Spartacus is just one of His many faces.

You are exactly on the point. Such a bold answer. https://www.theglovez.com/thai-boxing-gloves/