ORAL ROBERTS VISION

I was wondering if anyone has read or heard Oral Roberts vision?I'm having a hard time believing it was from God in light of scripture references Jesus used. Just wondering what everyone thinks.I've observed that thoughs who frequent here tend to be more serious minded.The spiritual man judges all things.God bless

Brother,What vision? Is it possible to post a site, or paste a copy that I might read?Blessings,Jeff

I have many, many friends who attend Oral Roberts University. The majority of the people I know think he is an upstanding man of God. I, however, do have a few reservations with him. For instance, one of the required courses for the first year at ORU is to take a one-semester course on the life of Oral Roberts. This, to me, seems rather egotistic... a sort of, "Before you serve God with your knowledge and career, let me tell you about how I did it. Listen to all the great things I did for God." If it is God's will, I certainly do not want to attend there, not just for that, but also because they make Physical Education a required course for every semester in college, and I am a clumsy, weak person who would probably fail.Also, like Greg mentioned, a lot of his teachings, while not anti-Scriptural, have minimal Biblical support. And some of the things, like the belief that, when the Bible says that the power of life or death is in the tongue it means that it is the act of speaking, not the act of believing, that causes spiritual change, could be rooted in the New Age movement (also known as Cosmic Humanism).As for his vision, I believe he actually had one. Whether or not it was from God or from medication, I don't know. He certainly believes it was from God. I suppose each will have to discern for himself as best he can.

Two things come to mind that would be helpful about Oral Roberts:1. Deut. 13:1-3 talks about a prophet or a dreamer who has visions that actually come to pass but in reality they are false prophets.2. D.R. McConnell (a graduate of ORU) wrote a book called "A Different Gospel." It's a very good resource on the hyper-charismatic movement.

The scariest thing to me is that Kenneth Copeland is assuming spiritual authority over both of them and is clearly in control of the whole situation. is assuming spiritual authority over both of them and is clearly in control of the whole situation.I would only change that to "The scariest thing to me is Kenneth Copeland"This is not someone anyone should be giving their ears to period.

This was sent to me and i've posted it because dohzman asked if any of us had actually heard the vision, so please don't stone me ... Anyone interested can actually read it for themselves, and then can decide if you'd like to stone brother Roberts ... Oral's Vision: In the midst of the turmoil, the fear, the anxiety that's in our nation and in our world, as I was walking and meditating, I heard the voice of God. I've heard that voice many times; it's familiar to me, and there's no way that I can fail to understand it's His voice because I'm familiar with it. And instantly I heard that voice and I heard it and then I saw with my eyes something I'd never seen. Suddenly, in the clouds in the skies above New York City and the east part of the United States, and which hung there for quite some time and then spread out across America, without touching the ground, and then God diffused it away from America and sent it out to the nations of the earth. And I saw and I heard. What did I see? I saw something coming down from above: smoke and vapor and blood, or it looked like that to my eyes, to my spiritual eyes. There it was; hanging so huge until it almost blotted out the sky. Instantly I thought about 9/11, when the terrorists attacked the twin towers and through television, all of us in America, and probably the world, saw those more than a hundred-story-high buildings crumple and heard the cry of thousands of people who were being either killed or wounded. I remembered the fear that struck my heart and knew that what I was feeling, everybody else was feeling, and remembered that never in the history of the world, and certainly not of America, that something of this proportion had struck the human race and was a preview of things similar to it that were going to happen through what we now call terrorists. First I saw this thing hovering and great changes coming in it to where I couldn't miss it, and then I heard, something came into my ears, and it reminded me of what a friend of mine had said when the first space capsule was released into the sky. He said when that thing lifted off the earth, there was a sound, and the sound itself moved the weeds and the growth, and he said, "It penetrated my body." He said, "As I talked to others, they felt the same thing." He said the sound was so enormous. Instantly I thought of that, because the sound that was coming into my ears was penetrating my whole being. And then I heard God's voice. He said, “I'm making a sign. This is a sign according to the second chapter of Acts, where the Apostle Peter, upon the giving of the Holy Spirit, the baptism of the Holy Spirit, said there'll be signs in the skies.” He said, “This is one of the signs of the end time because the world is not ready for the second coming of my Son.” He said, “My church is not ready for the second coming of my Son.” He said, “The Jews, with whom I've had the covenant for thousands of years, they're not ready for the second coming of my Son.” He said, “The nations of the earth are not ready for the second coming of my Son.” He said, “America has been set aside by a special covenant that I made with many of the people who came to found this nation several hundred years ago, that this was my nation and the gospel was going to go out from it unlike any other nation and there'd be more gospel going out from America.” And he said, “Not only would there be a powerful military presence in the United States unlike any other nation, but it would be the center of the gospel that I was sending out.” And he said to me, “You remember that I said in my Bible to my disciples 2,000 years ago, ‘Go into all the world and teach all nations, and when that teaching has reached the nations then shall the end come.’” And then he startled me. He said, “With all of the widespread force of my church in the world, but particularly in the United States, which is the source of most of the gospel that's being preached in all the world, he said, there is a wasting of my power; there is a failure to grasp the end time. And the church, they are coming to church on Sunday morning mostly for themselves and the preachers, for the most part, are not really concerned about the nations of the earth. They're concerned about the little group that is there, and they sing their songs and they get up and preach. And he said, “When 9/11 struck, there was a fear that came into the hearts, even of my people of the church and of people outside the church; and millions the following Sunday or two rushed to go to church, but the preachers were not prepared, and most of them didn't even preach on it and didn't even talk about it being the sign of something that's coming hundreds of thousands of times bigger.” He said, “When those planes of the terrorists struck the twin towers in New York City and they gradually came tumbling down, it was something bigger than people had ever seen; but it's nothing in comparison to what's going to happen in the second coming of my Son.” And so he said, “My church was not prepared to deal with that, and people came to church and then nothing much happened, and they dropped back, and many of them went back to their bars, and there I was with my whole creation that's alive in the earth, not counting all those who have died, millions who have lived and died, all of whom will be resurrected at some time in the future, having to do with the second coming of my Son, some to everlasting life, some to live forever in their new bodies and some to everlasting shame and contempt forever lost.” And he said, “I love people, I created them. I love them by creation. I love them because I sent my only begotten Son.” And instantly I thought of the great show that Mel Gibson made of The Passion. When millions upon millions went to see [The Passion] and are seeing it now all over the world. I remember when I sat there with my wife, watching it, and how my soul was stirred and the tears sprang from my eyes and my body trembled as I saw something about the sufferings of Jesus, the Son of God, to save the human race and so that the devil would not destroy God's creation, he would not destroy men, women and children that God had created and for whom Jesus had died and rose from the dead, that we might be born again, we might repent of our sins and have salvation and come into a readiness for the coming of Christ. And he says, “As you know in the Bible, the second coming is in two parts. One is called the rapture; one is called the revelation. And, first of all, I'm going to rapture, or catch up, my people, the people who are born of my Spirit and filled with my Spirit and serving me. I'm going to catch them up in a moment of time and they'll meet my Son in the clouds and come on into heaven, into my presence. And then not long after, I'm going to bring that bride of Christ back with Jesus when he comes the second time to the earth, and that'll be the beginning of the judgment of the nations.” But he said, “The thing that is breaking my heart is that I commanded my people, I commanded my church to preach the gospel in all the world and to teach all nations. And while they are evangelists and pastors and prophets and apostles and all kinds of my workers in various parts of the world and in some of the nations of the earth, it's just a drop in the bucket to what I commanded my disciples to do. And I love people so much I cannot afford to let people go on like they are.” And then he directed my attention to the book of Matthew, the 24th chapter, where he speaks in the 24th chapter and beginning at verse 35: "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." What I'm talking about is known only to the Father. "But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and knew not until the flood came so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." Now he reminded me in the 6th chapter of Genesis that the earth was filled with violence and it was so full it couldn't be any more full, and it grieved the heart of God that he had made man, and he decided that he would destroy man and begin over. And he established a remnant, and it was a family, Noah and his family. And he commanded him to build a huge boat that would take two of every living thing in it so when the flood came (and they'd never had rain before in the earth; it had been watered by a mist), he said, “When the flood comes and this boat with this family and two of every living thing gets in it, and the flood lifts them up from the earth that's being destroyed—or from the human race that's being destroyed—the flood that lifts the ark, or the remnant of my people, in Noah's day, will come down in judgment upon the people of the earth.” And he said, “Now, there's got to be preaching with fire in the belly. There's got to be anointing of the Holy Ghost. My church has to wake up, because what I'm revealing in this sign that every eye is going to see, every ear is going to hear, they'll see this thing. They will not necessarily know what it is, but it's a wake‑up call about the second coming of my Son. “It's not going to come and touch the earth. It's going to be seen, it's going to be heard, and people are going to become aware of the drama of the end time, of the second coming of Christ when he splits the skies and comes back with His bride and takes over the reign of the earth, and he destroys the Antichrist who will arise at that time; he will destroy the followers of Antichrist and he'll establish His kingdom upon the earth.” And he said, “I cannot let anybody live and die without knowledge that my Son is coming back the second time.” I asked God about the church, what was the condition of the church and what effect should this revelation that he's bringing as a wake‑up call have on his church. I'll never forget what he said, and I say it very carefully and without trying to offend anybody. He said, “There's an emptiness in my church.” He said, “There is a weakness, a wimpiness, like being a wimp. There's a spirit of weakness in the people who are trying to proclaim my gospel.” He said, “They are not feeling me on the inside of them. They're taking some form of theology and taking that little form and they're following what they've been taught, and the people are coming and sitting there and crossing their arms and saying, ‘Well, I hope I feel better when this service is over.’ And they get up and go home. But,” he said, “there's not very much happening.” And he said, “There's got to be a wake‑up because the second coming is going to change everything and change every human being who has lived before and who's alive now. “ He said, “Don't you see that if I don't do something and if I don't wake up this country, wake up my people and wake up the nations, that it's going to look like I don't love people? It's going to look like that my Son died in vain. It's going to look like I have not prepared a new heaven and a new earth for this world that's perishing, for this world that's the sickest it's ever been?” People are the sickest they've ever been. We have the best medicine. We have the most prayer. But they're the sickest they have ever been. The medical problem by itself is probably the most serious problem on a personal basis that people believe they are facing right now. Now I just think about that. Of all the new medicines, of the consecration of hundreds of thousands and millions of trained doctors and nurses and healthcare people...In the midst of the vision, I asked God about the coming election on November the 2nd in the United States for the president, and he just said one thing. He said, "It's a spiritual battle." And I said, "But they're talking about the economy. They're talking about the war and Afghanistan and Iraq, and talking about the conflict between Islam and a so‑called Christian nation." America is not a Christian nation, it just has a lot of Christians in it. But he said, "It's a spiritual battle." He said, “Whoever gets in is going to have to wage a spiritual battle in the United States.” And he said spiritual people have got to wake up, and wake up now.” And then that's all he said. God then directed me to Acts 2, beginning at verse 17, just after he had poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost on the first 120 disciples of Jesus Christ after the Resurrection. And beginning at verse 16, Peter said, "This is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; and it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh." You see, we're in the last days and God's about to pour out His Spirit upon all flesh. That's what I saw and what I heard. "I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, your old men shall dream dreams: and on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy." And listen, now, at verse 19: "And I will show wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke." That's what he said he would do, and I had not connected that with our time. I'd connected that with the actual second coming as it was happening, which will have much of it, of course; but here he's connecting it after the baptism of the Holy Ghost was poured out upon his disciples, there'll be these signs of blood and fire and vapor and smoke. They'll be coming down toward the earth. And I believe that's what he showed me, that I saw at least that much of it and heard it. Well, I shook in my body. I went into the kitchen where Evelyn, my darling wife, was, and I immediately told her. The following day my son, Richard, flew out from Tulsa to California, where I now live in the sunset of my life. I'm now 86 and Evelyn is 87. And I set him down and I told him what I've told you.

I was directed to Benny Hinn's site, by a freind, to watch a broadcast of the Robert's vision. To me, it was quite disturbing. Perhaps due to an apparent emphasis on 'pre-trib rapture'. Perhaps I misunderstood, as I wasn't giving my full attention, however something about it disturbed my spirit. Perhaps even, it was the evironment that it was being presented. Who knows? I sure don't.

CJakforest you wrote;"Who knows? I sure don't"My sentiments exactly ...i really don't like having this trepidation about talking about this subject because i'm not trying to get reprimanded, but here goes ...The reason i was sent this transcript of Oral Roberts vision is because of a discussion i was having with some saints about a thread i posted here on SI and the reaction i got from it ...Catholic Apparitions: St. Malachy, Fatima & Garabandal? ...https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=3921&forum=35&2i was telling them about my wonderment concerning mainly the Catholic apparitions of Garabandal Spain in 1961, and what was prophesied by four little girls ... Well lo and behold i was sent the O.R. vision transcript because one of the saints noticed a startling similarity between what was said back in 1961 about "God's warning sign in the sky" from one of the 12 year olds ...Quote;http://www.garabandal.org/warning.shtml"First, a World-Wide Warning that will happen in the sky...like the collision of two stars that do not fall down... it will frighten all humanity regardless of where one happens to be at the time... it will be a thousand times worse than earthquakes... like a fire that will not burn our flesh ... it will last a very short time, although to us it will seem to be a very long time ... no one can prevent it from happening ... It will be recognized as coming from God... it will resemble a punishment ... it is meant to be a purification ... like the revelation of our sins and what we will feel in our hearts will be worse than sorrow. It will not kill us, if we die it will be caused by the emotion within us. The date was not revealed only that it will happen before the announcement of the miracle". And what was said by Oral Robert's just recent ...Quote;"I saw with my eyes something I'd never seen. Suddenly, in the clouds in the skies above New York City and the east part of the United States, and which hung there for quite some time and then spread out across America, without touching the ground, and then God diffused it away from America and sent it out to the nations of the earth. And I saw and I heard. What did I see? I saw something coming down from above: smoke and vapor and blood, or it looked like that to my eyes, to my spiritual eyes. There it was; hanging so huge until it almost blotted out the sky.First I saw this thing hovering and great changes coming in it to where I couldn't miss it, and then I heard, something came into my ears, and it reminded me of what a friend of mine had said when the first space capsule was released into the sky. He said when that thing lifted off the earth, there was a sound, and the sound itself moved the weeds and the growth, and he said, "It penetrated my body." He said, "As I talked to others, they felt the same thing." He said the sound was so enormous. Instantly I thought of that, because the sound that was coming into my ears was penetrating my whole being. And then I heard God's voice. He said, “I'm making a sign. This is a sign according to the second chapter of Acts, where the Apostle Peter, upon the giving of the Holy Spirit, the baptism of the Holy Spirit, said there'll be signs in the skies.There's got to be anointing of the Holy Ghost. My church has to wake up, because what I'm revealing in this sign that every eye is going to see, every ear is going to hear, they'll see this thing. They will not necessarily know what it is, but it's a wake-up call about the second coming of my Son. “It's not going to come and touch the earth. It's going to be seen, it's going to be heard, and people are going to become aware of the drama of the end time, of the second coming of Christ when he splits the skies and comes back with His bride and takes over the reign of the earth, and he destroys the Antichrist who will arise at that time; he will destroy the followers of Antichrist and he'll establish His kingdom upon the earth.” And he said, “I cannot let anybody live and die without knowledge that my Son is coming back the second time.” ...Now again, i'm not coming at this as absolute truth because i think we all know that the Word of God is absolute truth ... But i do come at such things with questions (as are mentioned in my initial thread) ... Are these visions from God? .... satan? .... fanciful flights of fancy from the vain imaginings of men ... maliciously contrived cons? ... or as in the case of the above two alledged visions ... coincidence? ... or is it really the Lord doing His Joel thing? ...Hey i know there are some of you who are quick to dismiss this kind of thing without any thought to it at all, but i'm not of your ilk so if you find me disturbing then please pray for me, for i'd be a liar if i said i don't wonder ... Now i'm wondering if Oral Roberts knows anything about Conchita Gonzalez and her alledged apparitions of "the great warning in the sky" ...

I originally posted the question because I was conducting a bible study for our local fellowship in between preaching engagements. The topic came up and, not being a great fan of Oral or Copeland , I was completely in the dark. That started my quest. I read all I could and listened to all the media file I could. What I concluded after it was all said and done was that it was just another way to get money. In the end they wanted money. In Peter he talks about running greedily after gain in the error of Baalim. I do note that Baalim was called a prophet of God and had a reputation as one who spoke blessings and cursings for God. The time came when he wanted money to curse the children of Israel,well you know the story so I won't go there. My conclusion in the whole of the matter was that according to the transcripts I read of the 3 different Broadcasts, the book, and the TV interviews(3 of them), this thing has to happen this year. Oral seems to have a bad track record in prophesying events and even though he reguarded highly by many according to scripture he's a false prophet(at least in prohesy-prediction ect...).I'll write some more in a little while but have to run for now. God bless

dohzman you wrote;"not being a great fan of Oral or Copeland " ...Me neither, particularly the latter ... There's just something about Copeland that really tweaks my spiritual spider senses ...You also wrote;"What I concluded after it was all said and done was that it was just another way to get money. In the end they wanted money. My conclusion in the whole of the matter was that according to the transcripts I read of the 3 different Broadcasts, the book, and the TV interviews(3 of them), this thing has to happen this year". See that's the thing that got me too ... i was channel surfing one evening and came across Richard Roberts talking about this new vision his dad alledgedly had recieved, then he went into "you've got to get this", and then proceeded to name an offering limit for it's obtaining ... That sent me into instant prayer for all in the Roberts concern because i said to the Lord, "Lord ... they're selling a vision"!!! ... As brother Greg posted i too can see some things in this alledged vision that is true regarding the Church, and as for the "sign in the sky" i can even get to that as God does speak of causing signs in the heavens, but first of all to make up a vision or word from God as a malicious con scares me to no end, but then to do so with the added wickedness of selling it for profit just short circuits my brain ... i know that there are many charlatans out here with no fear of the Lords repercussion at all, but i sure hope and pray that Oral Roberts, and his family, are not counted amongst them ... I hope that in his case (if this is not an authenic vision from God) that he's perhaps a victim of fanciful flights of vain imaginings instead of maliciously contriving cons for mammon ...And i wasn't aware that Oral has set his alledged vision into a time frame ... That's one of the things that i just recently found out about the alledged vision of the Garabandal incident, as that this "sign in heaven" is locked in to taking place in the life time of the present pope ... i guess time is running out on both alledged visions and visionaries huh? ...

Yea time is running out for both. Peter talks about those running greedy after gain in the error of baalim. I read up on baalim and he was refered as a prophet of God who went astray and got greedy.I rember what Wilkerson preached many years ago, he said if we refuse to listen to the voice of God and his word and deal with our secret idols then thoughs same idols would speak to us as if they were the voice of God, scarey. I guess I still believe ministers/ministeries should preach and teach living on the freewill offerings of God's people. Selling the things of God kinda concerns me. I wonder if Jesus considers much of what we see in christian merchandise the same way as he did the temple market when he over turned the money changers tables?

dohzman you wrote;"I rember what Wilkerson preached many years ago, he said if we refuse to listen to the voice of God and his word and deal with our secret idols then thoughs same idols would speak to us as if they were the voice of God, scarey". I guess I still believe ministers/ministeries should preach and teach living on the freewill offerings of God's people. Selling the things of God kinda concerns me. I wonder if Jesus considers much of what we see in christian merchandise the same way as he did the temple market when he over turned the money changers tables?Wow! ... i'd not heard this before ... That is scary ... This is why we've constanly got to keep examining our selves/motives under the all revealing light of Scripture ... We saints have to be so careful of idolotry ... i know just recently the Lord has been dealing with me concerning my/our little small, easily hidden idols (secret sins) of Laban(satan) ... He said, "Sure my son you/my people are careful to knock down and destroy your/their big idols, the ones that call attention to double worship, but you/my people are still very guilty of your/their little ones" ... Well that's the whole lesson of Jacob's being called back to Bethel a second time, a return to His first love experience, but with the extra added benefit of he and his entire comgregation finally giving up, and burying even their little secret sin idolotry ... i dare say that our Lord is soon to call His entire Church back to Bethel a second time for our deep cleansing ... And yes i certainly believe that Christ sees all this so called "Christian merchandising" as "thieves in His Church" ... i've been praying for some time now that God would do something unmistakably Him to slap us ALL to attention ... i don't claim to have any visions as to what He will do, but i have no doubt that He's about to do something miraculous about all this mess we've slipped into again ...

dohzman you asked a question about the money changers and i just got this from ...ANZAC Prophetic List (Strom's Ministry)"Modern Day MONEY CHANGERS"-by David Ravenhill.I’m convinced that the carnal, cunning, conniving, crooked crooksthat Jesus drove out of the Temple are still among us today.These modern day moneychangers are forever devising new anddeceptive doctrines to defraud God’s people out of His/theirmoney. These masters of deceit have now set up their changingtables throughout the Christian television industry.I’m absolutely certain that if Jesus returned today He would walkinto the vast majority of these television studios and overthrowthe cameras, lights, monitors, and soundboards. He wouldunplug the microphones and scatter the makeup colors aroundas He went about destroying the stages and backdrops.Several years ago now, a nationally know prophetic voice wastold by the Lord, “I’m sick and tired of the prosperity message”.If that was true then, how much more today. As far back as1986, the top seven media evangelists took in over 750 milliondollars. Now with the increased manipulation of ‘seed faithteaching’ that amount has no doubt been dwarfed by comparison.Only a few days ago I was appalled as I watched and listened asPastor Steve__________ zealously twisted and distorted theScriptures to his own advantage. This ‘brother’ dared to distortthe most sacred truth of all Scripture. He used The Day OfAtonement, that day when Jesus Christ the Lamb of God shed Hisblood for the sins of the world, to teach that how we give financiallydetermines how God will respond to us throughout the coming year.My blood boiled as I listened. This ‘brother’ had finally crossed theline and was now on the verge of blaspheming the atoning work ofour blessed Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, not to mention lining hisown pockets with the proceeds. He might as well have beenselling indulgences by inferring that God’s favor toward us wasbased on our giving rather than God’s unmerited grace andforgiveness through the gift of His Son. What made matters worsewas that this same ‘charlatan’ was the guest of one of the nation’sbest known charismatic personalities. Within a day or so he wasteaching the same message on a local Christian telethon. Neitherthe evangelist nor the network sought to correct his aberrantteaching – after all, the show must go on and that takes money,so how you raise it doesn’t seem to matter anymore.Why does almost every single Christian program have to end withsome type of ‘seed faith teaching’? If these men and women offaith really believed what they taught, they would practice whatthey preach and teach; after all what’s good for the goose is goodfor the gander. Imagine how shocked you would be if your favoritetelevangelist and covenant partner were to send you a check intheir next mailing for the amount of $1,000.00 with a personalnote telling you he/she just wanted to sow into your life. Perhapsthen I could believe that these men/women really believe andpractice what they teach. Not only that, but they would neverhave to appeal for money again as God’s return to them wouldresult in a hundredfold increase. At least that’s what they wouldhave us to believe.On a recent ministry trip to the Northwest, I was told by a pastorfriend that his church had received a call from a well known andanointed teacher in the Body of Christ. The caller was askingthem for a contribution towards the purchase of a jet for theirministry. What a far cry from what the Apostle Paul taught whenhe prefaced his teaching on ‘sowing and reaping’ with thesewords; “ For this is not for the ease of others and for your affliction,but by way of equality.” (II Cor. 8:13-14)Many pastors measure their success in terms of numbers –thelarger the church the more successful their ministry. Itinerantministries, not being able to brag about size, seem to fall for thenotion that having one’s own jet is how success is determined.(Once it was the Rolex watch). By the way, if you love andappreciate this fine teacher, pray that he won’t get the desiresof his heart - it will only lead to the leanness of his soul.This is one man’s attempt to appeal to the Body of Christ. Stoppandering to these moneychangers. These men and women livelike kings while spending your money to buy mansions and jetsfor themselves. They dine in the finest restaurants, wear thelatest designer fashions and then have the audacity to tell youthat you can live the same way as long as you give to their ministry.I opened my Bible the other day to Zechariah’s wonderful prophecyconcerning the first coming of Jesus, our great and glorious King.Listen to his words; ‘Behold your King is coming to you; He isjust and endowed with salvation, humble, and mounted on a donkey,even on a colt the foal of a donkey.’( Zechariah 9:9 ) What a farcry from the televangelist who comes high and mighty and travelingon his own jet!If you are as sick and tired as I am about this waste of God’smoney, then for heaven’s sake STOP SUPPORTING THESEPEOPLE. Give your money to your local church. There are tensof thousands of needy missionaries who barely have enoughsupport to keep themselves alive. They are laboring long and hardunder some of the most difficult and trying conditions. They wouldrejoice at the thought of an extra $10-30 dollars a month support.These are the real heroes of whom the world is not worthy. Helpput these MONEY LOVING TELEVANGELISTS OUT OFBUSINESS and save another MISSIONARY FROM EXTINCTION.Together we can make it happen. Please forward this to as manypeople as you know.Thanks.-David Ravenhill.

Brother Greg you wrote;"Brother its off the chart for me. This fellow Copeland is a false teacher BIG TIME.. theres barely any decernment needed for that statement. I would stay far away from him" ...Amen ... i remember when he first started out, and the subsequent awful "name it and claim it" era, and he/it got progressively worse to a point where decades ago i tuned him out ... Fact is i'm not to keen on anybody (that i know of) out of the Kenneth Hagin movement ... It's also one of the problems i have with Creflo, who to many of those in my circle who like to have their ears tickled would ride you out of town on a rail if they could if you say anything negative against him ... Thank God he's not allowing me to be ridden on rails in this regard, or my feet would never touch the ground again ...And yes i too agree with your admonition that everyone that is reading this thread should listen to: Run for your Life by Carter Conlon ... It's a very enlightening and revealing sermon not only about the thieves in the temple, but also about the type of folk who like to be stolen from ...

Hey all check this out. I just recently seen that there is now a Volume 2 to this so called "Wake Up" vision that Oral Roberts received. Its called "Wake Up Volume 2: Last Days Prosperity for You and the end time harvest." A Prosperity message, imagine that. Richard Roberts said:"Recently, my dad told me that God had spoken to him again with a continued revelation of his "wake-up" vision from the Lord. This message contains God's word to Oral on: The importance of Christians getting out of the world's system of debt and getting into His system of true Bible prosperity. How tithing can provide prosperity for the end-time harvest of souls and for you through His: - Ideas, concepts, and insights. - Protection of your assets. - Supernatural favor."If the vision wasnt questionable before it definitely should be questionable now. This new volume 2 message that God gave Oral to tell his people is now available for a "seed-faith" gift. How ABSURD, you almost want to question these men if they think people are so blind to actually pay for something they say God gave them to give to the people. But people ARE that blind. People have been supporting these heretics for years. A seed-faith gift for something that God gives for free, HOW BLIND CAN WE GET? I looked at this and the only thing I can see out of this is nothing more than another product for them to sale. NOTHING more than just another product, they made so much money off the original "vision" this is just another chance to get more. I know the Christian TV station I just resigned from are all over this thing. Especially now that there is a prosperity message to it now. I believe that God will soon make his real prophets known, who will take the message of judgment to come and proclaim it freely in the open and in truth.

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.Isaiah 55:8-9These things hast thou done, and I kept silence; thou thoughtest that I was altogether such an one as thyself: but I will reprove thee, and set them in order before thine eyes.Now consider this, ye that forget God, lest I tear you in pieces, and there be none to deliver. Psalms 50:21-22

but wait, there's more...it's from America too.http://www.generals.org/joukoBogus BeliefsExcerpts from a self-proclaimed prophetic website: "Word Given for 2004 and Beyond"By The Apostolic Council of Prophetic EldersJanuary 10, 2004Great inroads will be made by the Body of Christ into media and Hollywood. There will be a wave of the Holy Spirit move across Hollywood and other media, related industries. We will see actors stand up in an increased measure and profess their faith in Christ.There will be a power encounter with MTV which will result in children being set free from the wicked ways it has influenced them. (Note: This has already begun after the half time show at the Super Bowl.)A connection is coming between the prophets and Hollywood and media.2004 is the year of the more. We are going to see a release of finances on a bigger scale than before. Whereas some have seen release in the amounts of thousands, some will begin to receive millions. We are going to see a breaking of this million dollar barrier for major projects that the Lord has put into the heart of His people.[TBC: Since we are nearly finished with the year 2004, the above selections should certainly be examined for their truthfulness and accuracy. The Apostolic Council of Prophetic Elders has included, "Chuck Pierce, Dutch Sheets, Mike and Cindy Jacobs, Mike Bickle, Barbara Wentroble, Jim and Michal Ann Goll, Tommy Tenney, Bart Pierce, Beth Alves and Hector Torres, under the apostolic leadership of Dr. C. Peter Wagner and his wife Doris." These and other prophecies may be found on the Generals International

as a person of faith what is my primary responsibility? To love the Lord and my brother and ...? If people are led down the road of false prophets it is no different than it has ever been, except there is no fire to burn the drenched sacrifice, and no destruction of the fifty with their captains again and again. If anything is true it will only get worse, and the only weapon we have is one of truth and prayer. When I watched the passion movie I didn't cry I was enraged and that fire hasn't dimmed. Would I be a son of thunder? I'd settle for some dead liars and a blinded magician or two. That being said the opposite of the prosperity/seed evil is the reality that is important to remeber. The reality, fear the lord, repent, the kingdom is at hand. Do I expect people to be happy when I spread the gospel or would I prefer godly sorrow?I have already been labled a zealot and I'm fine with that, as far as I can see the Scripture is black and white, there are no grays but it is exhausting to be the Light sometimes. All I ask is to be a faithful messenger and an effective instrument of His will, the rest is in His hands.

I know I should have read the entire thread before replying but each reply stirred more and more...Recently, my husband and I have been hit with some rough times... financially we have not been doing well... we have recently moved and just did not recover... he is totally disabled and I am partially disabled...so it isn't like we can just go out and find work... we rely on the Lord ALOT to help meet the need... we don't qualify for food stamps...but we have been going to some of the area food banks...One that we went to...after we waited to put the things into our car... the lady offered prayer... when I asked for prayer she asked about whether we were "giving" and I said that our income was very very limited right now... and her prayer was for us to begin to give a "seed" offering... I was appalled... Christ didn't ask the woman if she "gave" or demand a "seed" offering from her when she was asking him for her daughter's healing... in fact she said that the dogs got the crumbs from the master's table...not asking how many crumbs were "seeded" or "tithed" ... he healed her daughter....And in response from the bottom of the financial pole... if we were to listen to these "prosperity" people.. someone who is "poor" would never get in... yet Christ continually tells us to give to the poor... the wretched...the prisoner... the children (who incidently don't have an income or ability to tithe or give...they just are... and react in that manner...do you know of any three years who have the concept of tithing or giving "seed"?) It always appears that the love of money becomes the bottom line of these types of ministries....And they play the "poor" and "simple" people of the world... I avoid the TV movement completely for that reason.... and pray for the people who are looking for a miracle way out of dilemma they find themselves in...rather than trusting in Lord to be with them whether rich or poor....I am glad I can say with Paul..I have been rich and I have been poor but my true richness comes from walking with the Lord no matter my financial condition....Just my humble opinion...

Yes, Jouko, it's in America too. They have 'visions and prophecies' while flying over large geographical areas. I was getting weekly email reports from Arizona Call to Prayer about Dutch Sheets & Chuck Pierce's 50-state tour. I laughed till I cried. From the Washington State tour (emphasis mine):Chuck [Pierce] declared, “The angels are coming!"... On June 4 a meteor streaked across Washington creating a fireball that eclipsed the full moon. [The event] registered magnitude 1.6 on the earthquake scale.Declare in agreement with Prophet Bob Jones that this sign of heaven invading earth is the announcement of the release of angels into the northwest with a greater revelation of who Jesus Christ is and who we are in Him. :-? Larry Randolph saw a large angel appear during John Paul Jackson’s Friday evening session. This angel blew on a large trumpet with a continuous blast lasting until mid-morning on Saturday. That afternoon Paul Keith Davis introduced a friend who just returned from Nigeria with an angel the Lord assigned for him to bring to the U. S. This angel is called “Breaker Revival”. He was released in the Northwest to go forth and break off everything that hinders us from revival. :-?James Maloney told of an angel the Lord assigned to him. His purpose was to release virtue to faith and cause the gift of faith to move amongst the people.:-? As the angel imparted to Maloney and he ministered to every attendee of the conference, fear, doubt and unbelief were broken off the people.... Dutch Sheets shared the word “overshadow” that both he and Chuck were hearing from the Lord. He said that God wants to birth something in Washington. He is going to hover until it happens and He is going to release a deposit of life and bring forth. :-? Dutch shared that we are dealing with a demonic structure that has somehow succeeded in creating an atmospheric condition that is conducive to disorder and something that has an ability to defile the things that are pure and causing fruitlessness. Some things that look good are not good. Some things that look like they are in order are not in God’s divine order.:-? We been Christians 20+ years but these guys were new to us. Took a little while to sort thru all the jazz and understand them. It's so far removed from biblical Christianity, it's laughable, but also heretical. We had to quit a local prayer group because they are tied into this. Chuck Pierce & Dutch Sheets will speak in Phoenix Jan. 21 & 22. AZ Call to Prayer says "Hear what God has to say to our region and nation!" Oh please. Mrs. Fred

It was hard to know which of these to respond to, this thread or the similar Beware Of The Money ChangersSoulfilled,Your humble opinion is on the mark in my humble opinion. Recently, my husband and I have been hit with some rough times... financially we have not been doing well... we have recently moved and just did not recover... he is totally disabled and I am partially disabled...so it isn't like we can just go out and find work... we rely on the Lord ALOT to help meet the need... we don't qualify for food stamps...but we have been going to some of the area food banks...My prayers are with you, my own situation is a bit different, but it is a mess nonetheless.One that we went to...after we waited to put the things into our car... the lady offered prayer... when I asked for prayer she asked about whether we were "giving" and I said that our income was very very limited right now... and her prayer was for us to begin to give a "seed" offering... I was appalled... Christ didn't ask the woman if she "gave" or demand a "seed" offering from her when she was asking him for her daughter's healing... in fact she said that the dogs got the crumbs from the master's table...not asking how many crumbs were "seeded" or "tithed" ... he healed her daughter....Thank you, I am also appalled at this. It is redundant but I came through and out of all this nonsense and whenever this subject rears it's ugly head it is difficult to hold back.One of the reasons is with a backward look it is easy to think "How could I have been so blind? How could I have bought into all this?" It is also noteworthy to see that all the other misconstruing that was posted by Mrs. Fred and Jouko here ties in with this false teaching. At that time I was a new Christian, having just met my soon to be wife and she had been schooled in these types. Was also in a drug induced fog that was beginning to ebb as the Holy Spirit started dealing with me and naturally being in love early on produces all kinds of strange behavior. A lot of things that I would have had a more critical eye over got suppressed and besides it just 'seemed' like all this teaching was really 'true'. I mean here I am, born again, in love and about to get married. Had a pretty good job that was about to end but the prospects were to go into business with this lady who had all these connections... It certainly seemed that the Lord was going to make us 'prosperous' and besides the way we came together (my wife) was still an incredible intervention and despite the problems and circumstances we now face I still believe that to be true. The likelihood that I would have destroyed myself the way I was going doesn't escape me even now.Well it didn't take long for all this to start unraveling despite all the 'seed' planted and giving which as it was being swallowed was for all the wrong reasons no matter how you want to twist it around. The partnership ended up being that I got taken, never got paid for a rather decent chunk of money. But still we kept on believing for all these miraculous things to happen because we kept putting in the coin, the seed this and the seed that. As the Lord began to bring in other voices that were contradicting these things at first it was a defensive action, didn't know any better. But red flags started popping up more and more, questions to the way scriptures were being used didn't make sense. One of the irony's of that time was that we were in one of these mega-churches were the affiliations with all the Copelands and Creeflo's and Hickey's and Hinn and on and on, same names mentioned throughout here. But one day I noticed in the handout that our pastor had a program on a Christian station, it was in a different time slotnot in the prime body of programming. But it was through these programs that the bells and whistles really started to go off. It is where I first heard of A.W. Tozer and ultimately led me to this saving grace that we all are so blessed to have, SermonIndex.I guess I digressed back into all of this to say that it is rather easy to get caught up in this depending on "where your head is at." If you are a successful businessman or at the poorest levels of material life the justifications can be easily be made. Deception is just that. To one caught up in it, it seems just as absurd to hear someone telling you that you are following a lie. "What do you mean, the Lord is blessing us, look at my business, look at my car....etc." But what really galls me and causes that indignation to rise up and where I can see and feel that which caused Jesus to start overturning tables is that this is not the Lords house, it is a den of thieves. The misleading of believers has got to be one of the most gutwretching things I can think of. It is no different when our Lord grabbed a whip and chased them out then it is now with our modern day versions of the same thing. As Greg stated, THIS IS NOT CHRISTIANITY. It is the people who are being led astray, given a false hope and a false promise. I realize that there are principles in giving and we have been through the tithing issue in many discussions here. But this twisting of scripture to make it say something never intended and to in effect if not overtly make it a matter of lack of faith, a 'giving to get' is nothing short of scheming and scamming. It is setup to be one long process of looking for 'blessings' that may or may not come and thereby justifying every circumstance to that end.It needs to be exposed for what it is and the perpetrators held up to scrutiny. Have never been able to understand this idea that naming of names is wrong, it is puzzling that there is some kind of offense in bringing these matters up that "I heard a certain preacher saying that...." Who? This is not slanderous, I could wish nothing more than these men and women would turn from this heretical teaching but until they do so the sheep need to be warned and they need to hear that their favorite teachers are selling them a lie. These same ones were also my own favorites at one time and I thank God that someone had the guts to expose them, by name.I am thankful that there is at least some counter punch on TV. Charles Stanley and Adrian Rodgers, Michael Youseff and even Ray Comfort has a program which I don't get sadly. I am sure there are others depending on where you live. But I have to wonder sometimes what this all must look like to someone who is searching for answers. What is more appealing to someone who is hurting financially? And to go one step further since many of these same 'ministries' also like to specialize in all the so called 'healing' aspects, what of the the physically hurting, mentally, emotionally? It shouldn't be any surprise whatsoever that these ministries do so well and it's not any proof that it's because the Lord is 'blessing' them, it's only proof that it is just as easy to take advantage of people and use Christianity as a vehicle to do so. That is what makes this such an atrocity.Joh 2:13 And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem, Joh 2:14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting: Joh 2:15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables; Joh 2:16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise. Joh 2:17 And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up. From Barnes' notes:Joh 2:17 - It was written ... - This is recorded in Psa_69:9. Its meaning is, that he was affected with great zeal or concern for the pure worship of God.The zeal of thine house - “Zeal” is intense ardor in reference to any object. The “zeal of thine house” means extraordinary concern for the temple of God; intense solicitude that the worship there should be pure, and such as God would approve.Hath eaten me up - Hath absorbed me, or engaged my entire attention and affection; hath surpassed all other feelings, so that it may be said to be the one great absorbing affection and desire of the mind. Here is an example set for ministers and for all Christians. In Jesus this was the great commanding sentiment of his life. In us it should be also. In this manifestation of zeal he began and ended his ministry. In this we should begin and end our lives. We learn, also, that ministers of religion should aim to purify the church of God. Wicked men, conscience-smitten, will tremble when they see proper zeal in the ministers of Jesus Christ; and there is no combination of wicked men, and no form of depravity, that can stand before the faithful, zealous, pure preaching of the gospel. The preaching of every minister should be such that wicked men will feel that they must either become Christians or leave the house of God, or spend their lives there in the consciousness of guilt and the fear of hell.

Hi wrote this recently in other post,The Christianity that is being displayed in America today for the most part is not the christianity of the bible, but it is quite the opposite.Such is preached:Remission of sins is preached without REPENTENCE, let alone true repentence!Salvation without a COST!Salvation without TRUST IN THE MERITS OF CHRIST!Salvation by works!Grace without FAITH!Favor and blessing without OBEDIENCE!Greater stress on storing up teasures on earth than in HEAVEN!Prosperity to those who are Lovers of money, and a formula to manipulate God to get it! ie " Prayer of Jabez, ie preacher says you give "sow" to his sinful lust and God bless you to your sinful lust for money.THE BIBLE THE OLD AND NEW TESTAMENT SCRIPTURES (CANON) ARE NO LONGER LOOKED UPON AS: the word of God, that they are God breathed. That men were full of the holy ghost led by the holy ghost in writing, that they are not the opinions of men but the very words of God.2 Peter 1:20 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.That Holy scriptures are profitable for reprof for instruction in righteousness.2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"That it is our manual for living a Godly life. The old and new testaments are one Book! Meaning they are both the word of God and are equally authorative in our lives.Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.One may say that the old testament doesnt really apply to me because its for those who were in the old covenant and im in the new covenant so the new testament is all i have to read and be in submission to. 2Ti 3:16 This scripture Is referring to the OLD COVENANT SCRIPTURES, when Paul was writing that he was not refering to much of the new testament that wasnt written but to the old covenant scriptures. Because in vs 15 he says 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. Not olny that but Old covenant and new covenant or testaments are not the name of these books of scriptures, these are names put on these many different books,epistles, and so forth, Showing that these writings are writings during the old covenant and these during the new, but the writings themselves are not the old and new covenant.But the bible is look on as mens opinions, just stories, boring. Only theologians study the bible, the word Theologian is one who studys God. in2 Tim 2:15 15 "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."Are we not all commanded to be STUDIERS? showing our selves approved unto God, are we not to be a WORKMAN? One that need not be ashamed but who does RIGHTLY DIVIDE THE WORD OF TRUTH?Will working in a blacksmith shop once or twice a week for 15 min or 30, make you a true workman, one who need not be ashamed and who can Really make a work of art, who knows is tools like the back of his hand?Will training 15 min a day once or twice a week prepare a runner to win a race?Im preaching to my self.John 17:3 "And this is life eternal, that they might KNOW thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."That word know is relationship, as a Husband knows his wife. It is intamicy.How can you really know someone only spending so little time with them?Most supposed "christians" go to a building on "sun-day" sit and listen, and watch for an hour and then go home, and that is there extent of there relationship with Jesus. They believe if they go to a congregation, pay my tithes, be a good person, that Im saved, and Im doing good.But none of those things give you Salvation, none of them make you good, none of them mean your doing good.Jas 1:27 "Pure RELIGION and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world."There are so many that just make a descion for Christ but never truly heard the gospel message.They are told Just believe and you are saved, that is true statment but that is not the entirety of what scripture says about how one must be saved nore is it the entirety of the gospel message. To display or tell on that if they just believe on jesus and they shall be saved yet tell them nothing else is only telling them a half truth, and displaying that half truth as if it were the whole truth this is decepetive.If sin is not discussed how will one know what is he being saved from, or what he is confessing and turning from?I think Paris Reidhead in his sermon "ten shekels and a shirt" from Judges 17 depicts the present day crisis in Chrisitianity and one of the key reasons for it. Humanism. Which goes all the way back to when satan told Eve you can be God. Humanism says the end of all being is the happiness of man. Everything is about making man happy.I Believe we truly need to get back to our roots of our faith. We also need to study the history of the church what has gone on in the past 2000 years, I think when we study this we find and truly see why christianity today looks like the way it does.We truly must be willing to give up all for Him, I think many of us are going to be shocked what we have believed for so long was ok was not, Our Lord is calling us to Wake up! and chose this day whome were going to serve.Php 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.Satan has placed many things in our society today to distract us away from our first love. Phil 4:8 is a great scripture to ask ourselves is what i look at and meditate every day any of those things if it isnt i shouldnt be looking at it. ie video games, sec movies & tv. Things that seem helpless or harmless, yet are deadly.Does your Pastor, Elder, Bishop, whom your submiting yourself under do they fill the description in1Ti 3:1-13 on those positions; If they dont come close to that they shouldnt be in that position, and you should not be under them.Those is the requirements to be in that position.1 Tim 4:1 "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth."One cannot depart from the faith unless he is in the faith, so some whom are of the Faith, They will speak lies as, saying that they are the truth.Satan has worked on searing many minds, and seducing many souls, many are delousioned, and decieved 2 Peter 2:1-22 Peter warns of such, And our Lord Mth 24:24 "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."We are warned they they WILL show GREAT SIGNS and WONDERS, and if possible they shall decieve the very elect. Satan has been working on decensistizing the church so when such rise up that the messege they preach will be identical to what those in the faith believe. They will be all ready to be sifted.They will be Wolves in sheeps clothings, and they were Pauls lifetime already, and they are in ours this day! 2 Cor 11:14-15 "And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works."How will we spot and now these, we must have the knowledge of the truth, firstly.Many say doctrine is not important anymore, many say unity and peace is more important than doctrine, I say without doctrine stood upon and revered there cannot be true doctrine nor true peace but only a superfical peace and unity. Lets see what the bible says: These are all scriptures talking about Jesus Christ's Doctrine:Mt 7:28, Mt 16:12,Mt 22:33,Mr 1:22,Mr 1:27,Mr 4:2 ,Mr 11:18,Mr 12:38,Lu 4:32,Joh 7:16,Joh 7:17 ,Joh 18:19 , REV 2:14,15,24.Ac 2:42 "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles’ DOCTRINE and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers."Ac 13:12,Ac 17:19 , Ro 6:17 "But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of DOCTRINE which was DELIVERED you."1Co 14:6 "Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I PROFIT you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by DOCTRINE?", 1Ti 1:3 "As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach NO OTHER DOCTRINE,"1Ti 1:10 "For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to SOUND DOCTRINE;"1Ti 4:13 "Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, TO DOCTRINE."1Ti 4:16 "TAKE HEED unto thyself, AND UNTO THE DOCTRINE; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both SAVE THYSELF, AND THEM THAT HEAR THEE." 1 Tim 6:3 " 3 IF ANY MAN TEACH OTHERWISE, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the DOCTRINE which is according to godliness;4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,"2Ti 4:3 "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;"!!2Jo 1:9 "Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the DOCTRINE of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son", 2Jo 1:10 "If there come any unto you, and BRING NOT THIS DOCTRINE, RECIEVE HIM NOT into your house, neither bid him God speed:"Brothers and sisters we have a great stewardship in these last days, let us be seekers of the truth, let us be the true bride without spot or wrinkle, let us be a holy priest hood, let us be a true light in this world. Let us seek to have true unity and peace, let us Warn those who are being decieved and remember Ezekiel and his commission Ezekiel 1:1-,I would like to give the address to a site that has many good awakening teachings, and refererneces www.crosstv.comBlessings joshua

Brother relewis111Quote:as a person of faith what is my primary responsibility? To love the Lord and my brother and ...? If people are led down the road of false prophets it is no different than it has ever been, except there is no fire to burn the drenched sacrifice, and no destruction of the fifty with their captains again and again. If anything is true it will only get worse, and the only weapon we have is one of truth and prayer.AMEN! Well stated. Our primary responsibility is to Love the Lord with all our hearts. We are to FEAR HIM and Him alone as it is He who gave us our breath and it is He who alone takes that breath away. What does He tell us in Revelation? Speaking to the church at Ephesus in Chapter 2 vs. 4: Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. verse 5:Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and REPENT, and DO THE FIRST WORKS; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will REMOVE thy candlestick out of his place, except thou REPENT.These prophets prophesy lies and the people love to have it so, as they have left their fist love. God said He would send a spirit of delusion upon this land. The Pharisee and Sadducee spirits are still alive in amongst the preachers and some of the teleevangelists of today. They love to sit in the best places, etc… What a sad expression of the state of the “church structure” today.My question: How many will be surprised when they stand and say, but we prophesied in thy name, we did this and that.... And God the Father says, Depart from me ye workers of iniquity, I never knew you. Let us not be counted among those...as we guard our own hearts.Eccles12: 13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: FEAR GOD, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.Proverbs 3:26 For the Lord shall be thy confidence, and shall keep thy foot from being taken.Read Hosea 4:6 in its entirety…. The first half is quoted often but the second half is why the people are destroyed. They reject His truth!The entire chapter of Proverbs 2 gives us the answer…Heed wisdom from the Father above and preserve thy way. Let us as brothers and sisters continue to exhort and encourage one another that we all remain faithful to the Lord and be found as wise virgins when He comes.Quote: I have already been labled a zealot and I'm fine with that, as far as I can see the Scripture is black and white, there are no grays but it is exhausting to be the Light sometimes. All I ask is to be a faithful messenger and an effective instrument of His will, the rest is in His hands."Rest in the Lord and He will strengthen you. His commandments are not burdensome or grievous.We all need to call upon HIM in our times of weakness and tiredness'.Our only hope and defense is in that of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and staying in the Word.Blessings to you all, I remainAm_Lovin_HIM

Here's a message I obtained from something called the Hand of Help Ministries. I believe it's on point with this particular discussion. Brother Michael is from Romania and the grandson of Dumitru Duduman. The following is a bit long but worth the read...November 30 2004Late one evening as I was waiting for my wife to return home from her job, I was flicking through the television channels when I happened upon a Christian network. Not surprising, they were conducting another telethon, and since I was too tired to read, yet not tired enough to go to sleep I settled in and began to watch some of America’s most respected Christian minds attempt to make their case as to why everyone watching should send in their best gift possible."What you have here," one man said, "is an opportunity to finance the end time harvest. We are attempting to get a new satellite into orbit that will broadcast the gospel twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week to the Middle East. Dollars equals souls," he continued, "dollars equals souls." Another man in the background, seemingly excited over this new catch phrase echoed his agreement, and enthusiasm, "yes, yes, Amen, dollars equals souls."As I continued to watch I became increasingly uncomfortable as thoughts began to form, and as I began to realize that although on the surface this seemed like a noble cause, I had seen something similar take place some fifteen years ago, that had dire consequences for the true Christians of another region, namely Eastern Europe. First let’s make the obvious crystal clear. Dollars don’t equal souls, laborers, and the word of God equal souls. In order to bring in the harvest, Jesus said He needed laborers, men willing to sacrifice of themselves, to lay aside their plans for this life, and offer their all to the pursuit of furthering the Kingdom of God. When Jesus sent out the 70 disciples, He did not tell them to take provisions, he did not tell them to make sure they have enough cash in their expense account, on the contrary he told them to take nothing. He commanded them to carry neither money bag, sack, nor sandals, nor were they supposed to greet anyone along the road. All they had was Christ’s word, and that was enough for them to go and preach the gospel. The fact that men believe the amount of money a ministry raises, equals the souls it will reach for the kingdom of God, was not the most disturbing thought I had that night. The question that would make its way to the surface of my consciousness each time I heard the phrase, "we will be taking the gospel to the Middle East," was which gospel are you planning on taking to the Middle East? I have often wondered how the glamour gospel would play in a place like Sudan, or Iran, or Iraq, places where Christians are put to death for their faith, places where there is a sacrifice involved, a price to be paid for calling yourself a Child of God. How will Christians that are being persecuted, hunted and hounded, killed and maimed, react to the gospel of superstar Christianity, private jets, body guards, multi-million dollar homes, and autograph hounds? Is this the gospel we are planning to reach them with? Do we have the audacity to tell those that are suffering for the Gospel’s sake that they are ignorant, that all their suffering is for naught, that in fact because they suffer for Christ’s sake they are not in God’s perfect will? What does American Christianity have to offer to the persecuted Church?How can we conceive of going to preach the "I’ve got to have it all" doctrines, to those souls who still consider that it is a joy to suffer for the sake of the gospel? Imagine just for an instant a private jet blazing over the horizon of the Sudan, landing on a private air strip, a well coiffed man reeking of arrogance, stepping off the plane, the sun glinting off his multi ringed fingers, and his diamond crusted wrist watch, addressing the survivors of the Christian community whom one Sunday morning were locked in their church and set ablaze while in fellowship. Imagine this selfsame man, chastising them for not having enough faith to believe God for an indoor pool, and a fleet of new cars. I know its hard to believe, but there are places on this planet where Christians are more spiritual than here. There are Christians in this world whose spirituality extends beyond the temporal things, beyond the things of this earth and they find their fulfillment, and joy in the things of God, places where prophecy, dreams, visions, and miracles are not the exception but the norm.So back to my original question, what gospel are we planning to preach to those of the Middle East? One thing we have to keep in mind, is that these people have seen the true power of God, and once you’ve experienced the power of God, theatrics, and multi-colored lights, a tingle in your fingers or a good belly laugh just won’t do. What can we possibly hope to teach those wholly sacrificed to the cause of Christ, when discipleship in this nation only extends to touching one’s television screen? I remember a story I heard as a child, of a Christian body that went to live on an island off the coast of Italy, so they could learn to serve God, and draw closer to Him. These were simple people, peasants, and all they had were the testimony of Christ, and the promises that God had made to all His children, that if they would seek, they would surely find. After some years, the news reached some priests that there was a group, on this island, who simply prayed to God, not having been taught the church prayers, or the cannon. Three priest set out in a boat, reached the island, and informed all that were gathered there, that they had come to save their souls, they had come to teach them how to say the rosary, and pray the right way. Innocent as these brothers were, they received the priests, and tried to learn from their teaching. Finally the priests felt it was time to leave, they got in their boat and began to row toward the mainland. Suddenly a man ran out of the tree line, and continued to run toward them, waving and asking them to stop. He ran to the side of the boat and between gasps, he said, "we need you to come back, we forgot the prayer, we don’t remember how to say it." The priests looked shocked and amazed, the man was running on water, he hadn’t noticed, but the priests had. The elder of the group hung his head, and said, "However you’ve been praying, whatever devotions you’ve been making to God, continue to do so. Forget what we attempted to teach you, because it is obvious your faith is greater than ours, and through God, your faith allows you to do what we cannot." The man turned, and walked on the water until he reached the shore. Is it not the same thing some are attempting to do today? Trying to force feed a watered down, powerless gospel of material excess to servants who glory in their tribulations, who see the hand of God on a daily basis, who have joy and peace in spite of all that has come against them? The last thing I want to do through this article is get on a soapbox and say that money is not needed in ministry. It would be an insult to your intelligence. However, if for an instant we would take a step back, and think not on how we can build a bigger kingdom for ourselves on earth, if for an instant we would stop trying to take the glory that is due God, and place it on ourselves saying we’ve saved souls, and truly seek to help the persecuted church in the Middle East, we would clearly see new avenues to pursue, wherein we could actually help, not hurt those already on the frontlines, pastors and evangelists already sacrificing their lives to further the kingdom of God. If indeed we are successful in promoting the glamour gospel in these nations where Christians still meet to fellowship in the late hours of the night, in basements and caves, where they are still called upon to sacrifice their lives, I fear history will repeat itself, and true men of God, selfless servants whose only desire was to preach the true gospel, will once more weep bitter tears. I write this article this day, because I fear for the future of the true church in the Middle East, just as some feared for the future of the Church in Eastern Europe. Fifteen years ago, when some made their concerns known, when they saw the unhealthy teachings that were streaming into their nations, they were waved off as uneducated, simple men who feared progress. Now in many churches, we see their worst fears have been realized, congregations stripped of their spiritual essence, stripped of the power of God, priceless virtues that have been replaced with trinkets and entertaining plays. I know many Eastern European Pastors that still mourn the day they allowed westernized Christianity to be preached from their pulpits, because to this day the damage reverberates, and they draw further and further away from the true gospel of Christ. The true harvest will not be brought into the storehouse by gimmicks, or enticing words, but by tireless laborers, those scarred and bruised servants of Christ, who gladly lay down their lives just to tell one more person about Jesus. The following is an article that I’ve had for some time, and happened upon it once more just a few days ago. I believe it is something every Christian should read and take to heart. I urge you to take the time, and read it carefully, and let the truth of it speak to you. With love in Christ,Michael Boldea Jr.Dawn of LibertyMichael Phillips"And so, my friends and fellow believers in Christ’s injunction to send the gospel abroad into every land, it is with great pleasure that I want to present to our beloved brothers and sisters in the church behind what we have called the Iron Curtain these last fifty years, a check from money raised by faithful believers across America - money we hope you will use joyfully and fruitfully in building up the body of believers and churches you have so faithfully maintained during these long hours of darkness under the shadow of Communism.""Ladies and gentlemen," he went on, "I want you to meet a man I know you are eager to hear from, a man who carried the standard of the cross bravely, as you know - imprisoned and tortured, he never gave in to those who would destroy his faith. And so now, Dieder - Dieder Palacki, won’t you please come, accept this money on behalf of Christians behind the Iron Curtain everywhere. I have here a check for three million dollars to give you!"At the words, sighs and gasps and a few low whistles could be heard, all of which gave way to a round of applause, with many Praise the Lords and Hallelujahs sprinkled throughout. He turned, expecting Palacki to stand, come forward and shake the outstretched hand that awaited him.But instead Palacki remained seated where he was, until the clapping died down. At last he rose, came forward, took the check, shook MacPatrick’s hand unaggressively, but still said nothing. Slightly unnerved, but still not losing his cool, MacPatrick resumed his own seat with the other dignitaries. Slowly Palacki make his way toward the podium. He appeared not even to notice the applauding reception that broke out again, and in his eyes was not a look of warmth. Reaching the center of the platform, he did not lift his head to scan the faces of his listeners. Instead he stood still, looking down at the lectern before him. He had no notes. Gradually the clapping died down and the hall fell silent. Still Palacki stared downward in front of him, while the delegates waited expectantly. It was several long moments before he at last spoke. "It has been a curious past several days," he began, speaking softly. "I have been listening with great interest to the many discussions and exhortations, all with the end in view of promoting the Christian faith in a region of the world where one might conclude never before had a single soul heard the name Jesus of Nazareth.""Indeed, If I were newly arrived on this planet and had come to this conference as an angel whose assignment it was to report back to our Father on the state of his people on the earth, I would have reason to conclude that a huge segment of the world’s population had just been discovered of whom no one had ever heard before and who therefore had no Christian tradition whatsoever. As I have listened I have found myself wondering if any Christians have ever existed outside the United States or Great Britain.""So as I say, it has been with great interest that I have attempted to absorb the perspectives represented among you. I must admit that when the invitation came to join you, and even to address this gathering, I found myself seized with a certain trepidation. As you know, large assemblies of Christians such as this have not been customary where I come from, and thus most of my work among Christians has been in small groups of less than one hundred. Addressing several thousand I found a very intimidating prospect.""In the end however, I decided to join you, for we pastors and Christians from the regions formerly behind the Iron Curtain are certainly excited about the new possibilities for evangelism in our nations too.""But as I listened to more and more talk of money and pamphlets, of missionaries being sent and books being shipped, of teachers and pastors coming to help and train us in spreading the gospel, and of your gospel TV and radio stations and your gospel trains and gospel trucks full of your Western-style gospel paraphernalia - your badges and tracts and stickers and music and gaily written happiness-books with their joy-filled, razzle-dazzle Christianity - a knot has steadily risen in my stomach.""Do not forget, I have spent much time in your countries. I have been in your churches and bookstores. I have witnessed with my own eyes the trappings of your so-called spiritual prosperity, which is really no prosperity at all, but a hollow empty shell.""Something within me wants to shout and say to you all, ‘Go home to your contented and wealthy homes and communities and churches. The Good News of Jesus Christ is alive and vibrant and is fully capable of carrying itself abroad into the hearts of hungry men and women without the benefit of your expensive and lavish commercial efforts on its behalf.""Why do you think that those of us such as my brothers Wurmbrand and Duduman and Vins and others have been risking our lives for all these years? Each of us has been imprisoned, beaten, tortured, humiliated because of our preaching of Christ’s gospel.""For thirty years we have smuggled and traveled, taught, preached, gone hungry, organized, yes, and even spoken and written to you of the West as well. Thousands upon thousands of our fellow Poles and Russians and Slavs and East Germans have laid their lives on the line for the sake of their faith and in order to share that faith with others.""I tell you, my friends, God’s church is alive and well in the areas you represent as lost and in such desperate need. Small, perhaps, it may be, but it is alive and thriving because in our corners of the world there is a price to be paid to call yourself a disciple of the Lord Jesus Christ. A price that cannot be measured, as you seem to measure all things - by money. No, you who hear my words who I hope and pray are my brothers and sisters, it costs to believe in the East. It costs all you have to be a Christian. So there are very few lukewarm, halfhearted souls among us. To be halfhearted can cost you your life!""For years we have tried to alert you Christians of the West to the true state of affairs behind the Iron Curtain. We have written, we have traveled, we have spoken, we have prayed, we have wept.""How many of you listened to us?""My brother and friend Alexandr Solzhenitsyn attempted for a decade to be heard, as have so many others. We asked for your prayers, for Bibles, for help in teaching and training our people. And some help did come, for which we were grateful.""But the rest of you continued to feed your own mammoth religious systems, building yet bigger and bigger transmitting stations and more television stations and publishing more books - all in the name of proclaiming the gospel.""But did you ever give of yourselves? Did you come help us? Did you pray for us? Did you suffer and die and starve with us? How much did you really care about the people you now so pompously think you will save for the kingdom?""Where have you been all this time? We needed your help and prayers and support and Bibles when times were hard! We have been beaten and imprisoned and even killed for the gospel’s sake. Where were you when it counted? We lived our faith behind the Iron Curtain, and now that it is down, who is to say we even want you coming with your pompous egoism and self-reliance?""Come now! Did you seriously expect a huge outpouring of goodwill and gratefulness from those of us representing the East for all these grandiose plans you would make for our people?""Did you really envision a great unity of working together in this time when you say opportunity for harvest is so great? To listen to you, all that we have been pouring our lives out for these last four decades of repression counts for naught. Do you truly expect us to share your enthusiasm and welcome you and your wealthy brand of capitalistic Christianity with open arms?""Think again, my friends, those I would still call my brothers and sisters in spite of your blindness. Pause and consider the egotism of your presumption and the worldliness of your method."By now the auditorium was filled with the heaviness of shocked silence. No one dared move a muscle or so much as shift in his seat. But Palacki’s chastening diatribe was not over yet."How dare you well-fed, contented, prosperous Christians of the West, come here now and think you can throw your money at us poor unfortunates and suddenly ‘save the world’ with all the gadgets and inventions and high-tech wizardry of electronic spirituality! You with your multi-million-dollar architecturally imposing churches, you with your computer Bibles and preprogrammed Bible Studies, you with your posh cars and soft, upholstered pews, your grand libraries of Christian books, your leather-bound reference Bibles, you who have all the answers to the world’s ills nicely at hand to spout off when asked.""How many of you have been hauled away at gunpoint for attending a spiritual discussion? When was the last time you were beaten for uttering a sentence of prayer? Do you think you can spread the gospel with a conference, with programs, with satellites, with your television and music, with your preaching?""Have we Christians of the East been idle all this time? What would you have us to do, go off quietly somewhere so you can come in and pat yourselves on the back before your watching congregations and claim credit for saving all the souls who would be lost without you?""No my shallow brothers and sisters of wealthy, contented Western evangelicalism! Build a prayer tower or a glass church somewhere, but think not that your money can save souls. Go back from whence you came, and spend your evangelistic self-gratifying mammon elsewhere!"Suddenly he stopped, stood another two or three seconds gazing at his listeners with calm countenance, yet flaming eyes. Then, with decisive motion he ripped the check he was still holding into several pieces and let it drop to the floor.Palacki turned and strode off the platform and out of sight, leaving his hearers gaping in stunned silence.

I have not read this thread in its entirity, but have picked up the basics. I have usually regarded Oral Roberts as one of the milder preachers of the prosperity doctrine. However, I have a friend that I have known since we were both just kids. His parents were missionaries to Mexico and our two families were great friends. We went on missions trips to Mexico and everything. He and I used to talk alot--about God, books, life, everything--he was very down-to-earth. Then he went off to Oral Roberts University for four years and he has never been the same since. Seriously. He is now an upstart international evangelist that draws thousands to healing and evangelistic crusades in Central and South America. He has written books to solve the world's problems. He is a raging success--and very, very different from the boy I knew ten years ago. Now I get mailings saying things like, "Give to me so I can win souls. Your dollars are bringing thousands into the kingdom." Some of the more comical ones have included "I refuse to splash in a little puddle, send money so I can swim in my ocean of greatness". I did not realize how bad it had become, though, until I received a letter that was supposed to be a paraphrase of a passage in Deuteronomy. It was very scary because it was a gross distortion of the Word of God. It went on and on in a seemingly endless list of all the financial blessings for giving to the ministry. It ended with saying "Everyone around you will look at you and praise God for your prosperity." For our prosperity??!! No mention of God's mercy! No mention of His sacrifice! No mention of love or joy or peace or ANY of the fruits of the spirit! People will praise God when they see we are rich--is that what it's come to?Please do pray for my friend. I was so appalled by his letter that I didn't know what to say. My brother said he would send him an answer or call him. That's better because my brother has kept up with him more in recent years than I have. I know that in some measure, God has used him, but I wonder how much he knows God at all anymore. I know that at one time he really knew God and God's hand was one his life. It scares me because I know that God will not let go of him and one day God will have to let him fall in order to dash his illusions. I pray that he falls sooner rather than later.Phebe

Ed,This is very much on point. It's been said that what this country needs is missionary's from countries that know something of what it cost's to come to us, to teach us. This is so well said it should be posted on many a church door, especially in our country.

Gideon--Wow!! I just got through reading the article about Dieder Palacki. Oh God, help us! Help us! We are truly so very self-satisfied and egotistical! Have you ever read the book by Brother Yun called "The Heavenly Man"? If not, you really must! It makes me long to go back to China where I knew a different, tougher brand of Christianity...Phebe

Yes, we are so ever self-satisfied and egotistical. I just pray that God will remove the veil from my own eyes. It has to start with each of us first.There are many in the persecuted church that are praying for those in western countries. It seems backward to me.I have heard about Brother Yun but haven't read the book. Will have to get a copy. Thanks for the recommendation Sister Phebe.

Yes, Gideon, thank you for posting that story. It was very convicting. Also, Phebe, I just ordered the book you spoke of and am looking very forward to reading it. We have a child in China who lived with us for a couple of years. We visited last summer also, so China is near and dear to us. Blessings in Jesus, Cindy

Yes, Gideon, thank you for posting that story.Very sobering it is. Thanks for sharing them. -Robert

I graduated from Oral Roberts University back in 1999. Oral is the best preacher/prophet ever. He's like a Moses of our time. Ok, I'm not being serious. I see many of you don't care for what he has to say these days and I can't blame you for it. I can't remember a time when I heard him speak while at school not having to do something with money. It was seed-faith or your 1000 fold blessing or something else. However, I did enjoy some of the old videos of his tent meetings back in the 50's. I did meet the Lord in a real way at the school, but it wasn't so much because of what was taught there. I wasn't quite in the mainstream of what was going on at the school. I will be giving Oral Roberts more money. I have to keep paying on those school loans. :) :-)