Menu

Can a woman teach???

S
sermonindex

1 Timothy 2:12 (New International Version)

12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.

I know that Debra was a judge, prophetess and led an army into victory .It seems that if a woman can speek the oricals of God that this is definetly teaching.

Secondly if Jesus destroyed the works of the enemy and man ruling over woman was a result of the fall this condition should of been rectified through Christ sacrifice???

Also the prophet Joel said in the last days God would poor out his spirit on men and women. They would see visions and dream dreams. If visions and dreams are given to serve the body the woman would have to teach men what the spirit showed her????

I am getting conflicting messages about this subject. Please bring some clarification !

S
sermonindex

Dear me, what a can of worms thou hast opened.

I feel sorry for Paul.

S
sermonindex

thank you for you comment.

M
mguldner

Indeed a can of worms has been opened. :)

um I don't really have much of an answer but I do know that when the first churches started it was really one of the first times women could be around while such matters occured and so since their knowledge of scriptures was limited they would ask tons of questions while the Spirit was flowing and interupt the flow of the Spirit, which is why said if women have a question they should wait until they get home and ask their husband. You can precieve this intereptation as any woman who isn't qualified to teach should be silent. At least that is what I have been told. I expect this answer is common and will probably get grilled by someone of the other camp which I am okay with. :)

God Bless,
Matthew

S
sojourner7

I honestly have no convictions against
women teaching from the Word of GOD.
I know of several women gifted in this
area of ministry; Beth Moore, Kay Arthur,
Joyce Meyer just to name a few.

T
TaylorOtwell

No, women can not teach in the public gathering of the saints (1 Cor 14). However, they do teach in other contexts, such as teaching other women, or evangelism.

Also, woman's submission to man is not a result of the fall. Authority/submission existed within the Trinity for eternity past with the Son submitting to the Father. The concept of submission is not a fallen concept, it was God's original intention for man/woman even before the Fall.

With care in Christ,
Taylor

S
sermonindex

Genesis 3:14-16 (Amplified Bible)

14And the Lord God said to the serpent, Because you have done this, you are cursed above all [domestic] animals and above every [wild] living thing of the field; upon your belly you shall go, and you shall eat dust [and what it contains] all the days of your life.

    15And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her [a]Offspring; He will bruise and tread your head underfoot, and you will lie in wait and bruise His heel.(A)

    16To the woman He said, I will greatly multiply your grief and your suffering in pregnancy and the pangs of childbearing; with spasms of distress you will bring forth children. Yet your desire and craving will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.


The word because seems to indicate that this was a result of the fall. I do however know that the Lord wants us to be submitted to one another out of reverence to Christ.

S
sermonindex

Joyce Meyer is a gifted teacher?? Uhhh... she's a heretic and a crook.

Anyway, women are not permitted to teach men or "usurp" the authority of men in the church. Period. Thats what the Bible says. There is no debate beyond what the Bible specifically says.

This is not saying she cant teach outside of the local church. Kay Arthur is not usurping mens authority. Her books are there... if you want to read it, read it... if you don't then don't. But the local church body is to be pastored and eldered by men. Leadership.

Debra is not a good example to use because she was a judge... not a priest. She did not serve in the Temple... the male preists did. Everyone brings her up, but she did not serve in the same capacity as so-called "women pastors". Apples... oranges...

Krispy

S
sermonindex

just when i thought it was safe to go back into the water..........."money", this topic, among a half a dozen turgid others has plowed, and hashed, re-hashed, shredded, pulped and composted here, again, and again and again and again, to very little profit.

But you can get Brother Don Courville's "Desert Survival" teachings here for download, or listen to the wonderful preaching of Duncan Campbell, who was blessed enough to be counted faithful, to witness the Hebridean Revival, thats the real onus of this wonderful website.

I dont mean offense brother.

H
hoohoou

This is a good topic of conversation. I think the biggest issue with these verses is what most of us have been taught in school and through society. That is, women can do anything a man can do and to say otherwise is ridiculous. Once a man begins to seeek to be a whole-hearted disciple of Christ however he must commit to obey scripture. This one is tough to swallow because it feels "mean" to most men (in my experience). But the fact is that God has told us that a women should not have authority over a man. We can't simply explain that away with the old explanation that women were just talking too much in the early church services.

This is something that the Lord has placed on my heart. I think that scripture is very plain on the issue. It's just that we don't want to accept it. My wife and I have talked about this and she agrees with me. Neither one of us fully understand it, but if God felt the need to mention it twice we might want to obey. The key in it lies in the spirit behind it. Just my thoughts.

S
sermonindex

Amen... and just because God has given men and women different roles in the home and in the church does not mean that women are of any less value to God. There is no difference in Christ between Jew and Gentile, male and female... but He has ordained by His perfect will that we fulfill very different roles.

Krispy

M
mguldner

So to verify and keep this discussion orderly we all have nothing wrong with a women preaching as long as she isn't an authority in the church? Is this correct?

S
sermonindex


Psalms 68:11

11. The Lord gives the command;
The women who proclaim the good tidings are a great host:
12. Kings of armies flee, they flee,
And she who remains at home will divide the spoil!"
13 .When you lie down among the sheepfolds,
You are like the wings of a dove covered with silver,
And its pinions with glistening gold.


This speaks to me of the necessity of neither male nor female in Christ. Without families, and the influence of Godly mothers, the church would perish, if it were possible. The proclamation of His word does not always mean in an apostolic way to the masses, as on Pentecost. It also means a faith filled good night story to our babies, and the security they receive from their mothers as faith is imparted to them.


Godly mothers, and sisters hold up their canopy of holiness unto the Lord as much as The evangelist; as much as the Apostle doing exploits around the world, and the Lord not only recognizes it, but proclaims He has ordained it to be so.

12. "Kings of armies flee, they flee,
And she who remains at home will divide the spoil!"

When the victorious church gains glory unto the Lord, and the enemy Princes run for their lives, the rewards of victory are the exact same for the warrior slaying, and the mother praying; no difference. Women cannot be in the field, because of their apparent weakness, and because their ministry is often different, especially if married and having children.


This becomes their first and necessary devotion, and calling.

S
sermonindex

So to verify and keep this discussion orderly we all have nothing wrong with a women preaching as long as she isn't an authority in the church? Is this correct?

IS THAT RIGHT?

S
sermonindex


Isaiah 61
The Good News of Salvation.

1 “The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon Me,
Because the LORD has anointed Me
To preach good tidings to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives,
And the opening of the prison to those who are bound;
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,
And the day of vengeance of our God;
To comfort all who mourn,
3 To console those who mourn in Zion,
To give them beauty for ashes,
The oil of joy for mourning,
The garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness;
That they may be called trees of righteousness,
The planting of the LORD, that He may be glorified.”
4 And they shall rebuild the old ruins,
They shall raise up the former desolations,
And they shall repair the ruined cities,
The desolations of many generations."


As I see it, this IS the ministry of the Holy Spirit in His purist form. This anointing is neither male nor female; it cannot be. Therefore, would one say that a female believer is prohibited from;

1]. Sharing the gospel with others, including her family and friends?...
2]. Ministering comfort, Peace and Freedom to those in need?
3]. Sharing with others that the Lord is returning, and comfort the suffering in that truth?
4.] Ministering consolation, beauty of the Lord and the joy of the Lord...in the spirit of Worship and the Comfort of faith in the Lord Jesus?

Of course not.
Women are the "weaker vessel" whether they like it our not. They are forbidden to usurp any authority over men, or to teach doctrine and oversee in any leadership capacity within the Church.. To allow such, is to invite confusion and hurt. In my 40 or so years addressing these issues, I have never seen ONE instance where a woman Pastor, or Co-Pastor did not leave a trail of disaster behind her; not one....and I have seen many.

In these issues of doctrine and authority within the church, they are to be silent. However, can a sister give a testimony? Yes. Can she prophesy? Yes. Can she share a revelation? Yes. Can she pray for the sick wherever she is? Yes. can she comfort others with the heart of Jesus, wherever she is? OF course.

We as a church have cut off 50% of our family and their giftings and ministry. Do I want my granddaughter to Prophesy? Phillip did. Do I want a Priscilla ministry in her future? Paul did. Do I want to see an active faith that ministers compassion and life to others in power? YES. I think Jesus does too, but I do not want to see this brassy caricature that we see today as Women Pastors or "evangelists", such as Gloria Copeland, or Joyce Meyers.


That would break my heart. They have become aggressive and mannish, no matter how many face lifts and beauty products they have used. [ not withstanding the heresies they embrace..] It is not healthy for a sister to desire these positions of authority. It really messes them up.


But as far as their ministry goes; of course. I long to see the Church free in this area, and our sisters set free in the process. We all will benefit.

M
MaryJane

Never mind:)

S
sermonindex

"So to verify and keep this discussion orderly we all have nothing wrong with a women preaching as long as she isn't an authority in the church? Is this correct?"
Dmoney.

Of course this is idealism here, and could it be a carry over from the IHOP thread where I confronted the unscriptural practice of ordaining women to teach and exercise authority there in a variety of arenas.

No, I am not saying that. Generally preaching over the pulpit is centered around Doctrine, and doctrine must therefore be taught as the process of preaching ensues.

A woman preaching in a church setting must by task also preach doctrine ultimately, which falls into the authority realm, and the teaching realm. This is prohibited by scripture.


I have ministered side by side in the evangelism realm, and been with sisters witnessing, passing tracts, etc., but when it comes to actual preaching to the lost,[ lifting up your voice and proclaiming...], I don't think so. The warfare realm is too intense; with the demon possesed , hecklers now and then, and general opposition.


In the Far East ,India and the Mid east, there is a resentment by the men there seeing a woman confront them. They are not Americanized into women's lib, and quite frankly, wouldn't listen, or worse.


There is a video on you tube where Lou Engel took some youngsters to The Castro in San Fransisco. An angry mob threatened to beat them, and ran them out. The police came in to escort them out, or there would probably have been blood shed. You can see what I mean. It was a noble idea, but They never should have been there...


Preaching is not the place for sisters....generally. There always is the exception. I think of Marie Woodworth Edders, some female missionaries, and others. The Deborah of old was surely in authority over men. Again, we cannot generalize, but stick to the word, and that should always be kept pure. Women are not, and were not allowed as preachers and teachers over men.

S
sermonindex

So to verify and keep this discussion orderly we all have nothing wrong with a women preaching as long as she isn't an authority in the church? Is this correct?

You misunderstand... whenever anyone stands in the pulpit to teach the Word of God... they are assuming a position of authority on what they are teaching.

So it does not matter what "position" she has, it is wrong for her to preach in the church when there are men present.

Krispy

S
sermonindex

Instead of posturing and trying to justify why women should be able to teach from the pulpit to a congregation of men... why not just read what the Bible says... and obey it? You don't have to understand it, you don't even have to like it or agree with it. God demands obedience. Period.

As far as the question "What if God gives a woman a word to share" ... my answer would be God would not give a woman a word to share if it means that she would be violating His Word in the delivery.

Does God give women a message to share? Of course. But not to be shared in violation to His Word. There are other avenues for which she can share what God has laid on her heart.

Krispy

M
Miccah

The issue here is ability and order. Women have the ability to preach. Sometimes they have better ability then men do, but it is out of order.

So many people in the Western society believe that ability trumps order. God gives everyone abilities, but He also gives us the order in which these abilities are to be used. God has a role for every man and women, it is our job to submit to His ways for our lives.

Western culture has instilled anarchy on true biblical order and headship. God is not worried about American gender equality, He is concerned that we follow His example for our lives. This includes proper roles for men and women.

S
sermonindex

THESE WORDS ARE FULL OF PRIDE AND SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS. That much I do know. And sense God is love and is not proud I tend to not receive your teaching.

1 Cor. 10-12

L
Lysa

I disagree adamantly with Krispy. My intention is that this will be my only post in this thread (I hope!) (huge grin)

I believe a woman CAN teach without usurping authority over any males present. Why? Because I've seen in action and the meetings were blessed by God according to the word of Mark 16.20 and Hebrews 2.4, if it wasn't blessed by God then He would not have confirmed His word with signs following (on a continual basis).

Instead of posturing and trying to justify why women should be able to teach from the pulpit to a congregation of men... why not just read what the Bible says... and obey it? You don't have to understand it, you don't even have to like it or agree with it. God demands obedience. Period.

It seems to be you who are the one posturing over women not teaching; you're the one who's posted the most already (against) in this thread. Truly, if that is how strongly you interpret the Scriptures, then by all means, stay away from any meetings of that sort!! And God bless you and yours!


But, I truly believe that this is denominational theology that is making all the difference between our disagreement; but I realize I'm probably wrong! Let's see! It's usually the Baptist that are against and the Spirit-filled ones (me) who allow them to preach/teach in the presence of men; so I ask....

Are there any Baptists or of that persuation out there that think God DOES allow a woman to teach with men present?

Are there any Holy Ghost filled people out there that think God would NEVER allow a woman to teach with men present?


Or should I be asking the questions differently?

C
Ceri

Well, Jesus certainly broke with tradition.
In Jewish culture during his day women were rated as second class citizens, their word had no worth or power - Their opinions were never asked, they had no say at all, women were not even allowed to give evidence to a court!!

Yet Jesus on the day of His resurrection appeared to Mary first - telling her to tell his disciples that He is alive!! Jesus elevated a woman to telling His message to His disciples - something never done in that day! The first Gospel message that Jesus is alive was spoken by a woman - thanks to Jesus Himself!

My husband has studied into this subject and it's literal meanings. A woman must not userp a man's authority.
In other words 'must not exersise authority on ones own account' 'must not domineer over' 'to act on her own authority' ' must not use womanly charms for her own means'
My husband after studying in depth has no problems with a woman teaching at all. All that matters is that both men and women teach the pure word, the pure truth.

As I have stated before in a similar thread, I teach and have done Bible studies at our church and others.
I have always submitted to my husband, we have a strong relationship. We submit t our church leadership. Neither have ever had a problem with me teaching.
My father also tells me he's proud of me, which means such a lot to me. He loves to share and often asks for my thoughts on whatever he is studying at that moment, he sees it as I'm following in his footsteps, and is so thrilled.
God doesn't seem to have a problem with using me as a vessel as He blesses His word so much and there has been such a wonderful annointing. Surely God can give gifts to whoever He pleases.

I had a situation with a friend who came around our house regular, had supper and bible discussion with my husband and I. On one occasion as he was asking questions, I was sharing answers and explaining things to him, and he completely blanked me out and ignored me!! after a while of this I asked him why was he was doing this to me, he replied "Oh you're only a woman! scripture forbids you to teach me! "well!" I said, "I'm only answering your questions!"
I found this attitude completely offensive and so rude. I was angered by this and left my husband to sort it out with him.seeing me treated this way hurt and upset my husband too.

To be in submission doesn't mean to be under the thumb and dominated! but it is a place of safety, of covering, of respect, where you can grow and develop into the person God wants you to be. My husband, in our 24 years of marriage, has shown me such love and respect, strengthened and encouraged me into the woman I am today.

Why isn't there more talk on 'Husbands love your wives as Christ loved His church and gave His life for her'!!
Don't hear many men discussing that!
Jesus elevated and respected women and gave them a rightful place, but plenty of men want to put women down and under the thumb and keep her quiet!
Is that how Jesus loved the church!

S
sermonindex

Never mind:)

yay....you betcha....like i said before.."and again and again". this thread has all the potential to be a real doozy....great witness guys.

we gotta laugh MJ.....no wonder things are the way they are.

S
sermonindex

Did someone mention a can of worms?


What about those women who are not married?

Isn't their head of authority Jesus himself?

Paul was speaking about married women not taking authority in teaching, because they were to show submission to their husband.
Right?

Now, if a husband asked his wife to get up there and teach/preach, she would be in rebellion if she she refused.
Is that what you call decent,in order, and submissive?

Ceri seems to have a clearer picture about all this.
(Your hubby and you, Aquilla and Priscilla,
were talking to Appollos?)

Paul did not want women to preach/teach of their own accord over the main assembly.
Why?

I'm guessing, but here is the basis:
Eve was decieved and Adam was not.

Some will say, Ok, Adam was not decieved, and if you look to Genesis, you will note that he was standing right there with Eve when she was seduced. Right then, at the very foundation of the establishment of the current Kosmos, Adam is in outright rebellion, but Eve is confused.

On a similar note related to all this, if you check into all the cults that have sprung up in America, looking into their (sometimes savory) histories of origin, women have either started them, or in some way, through womanly "wiles" in the background, irregardless of said women being either a man's forethought or afterthought, through either domineering ways or seduction, they manipulated their men into starting them.

Eve was decieved.
Adam was not.

Doesn't Paris Reidhead have a sermon regarding the principles behind this issue?

CIAO!
g
Acts 20:32

L
Lysa

On a similar note related to all this, if you check into all the cults that have sprung up in America, looking into their (sometimes savory) histories of origin, women have either started them, or in some way, through womanly "wiles" in the background, irregardless of said women being either a man's forethought or afterthought, through either domineering ways or seduction, they manipulated their men into starting them.

Scholarly references to substantiate this, please.

M
Miccah

dmoney,

My words were prayed on before posting. It is up to you or not to receive them.

Blessings.

A
Ashmoe

Just to clarify what post I was talking about.

THESE WORDS ARE FULL OF PRIDE AND SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS. That much I do know. And sense God is love and is not proud I tend to not receive your teaching.


Instead of posturing and trying to justify why women should be able to teach from the pulpit to a congregation of men... why not just read what the Bible says... and obey it? You don't have to understand it, you don't even have to like it or agree with it. God demands obedience. Period.

S
sermonindex

Miccah I was talking to KRISPY KRITR

S
sermonindex


1Timothy2:9

9. In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with braided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

10. But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.

11. Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

12. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

13. For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

14. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

15. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.


............."Instead of posturing and trying to justify why women should be able to teach from the pulpit to a congregation of men... why not just read what the Bible says... and obey it? You don't have to understand it, you don't even have to like it or agree with it. God demands obedience. Period."


Brothers and sisters: Amen


To defy the Word is to bring confusion and pain upon yourselves. Women do not belong in teaching roles over men, or preaching roles, over men. Women were not made for that, and bring suffering to all when they do.

S
sermonindex

g:

On a similar note related to all this, if you check into all the cults that have sprung up in America, looking into their (sometimes savory) histories of origin, women have either started them, or in some way, through womanly "wiles" in the background, irregardless of said women being either a man's forethought or afterthought, through either domineering ways or seduction, they manipulated their men into starting them.

Lysa sez:
Scholarly references to substantiate this, please.

g: "if --->'you'

S
sermonindex

In I Tim. 2:12, Paul Did say "I" to begin with, and it seems if that is what he said, that is what he meant.

Don't you try to say exactly what you mean?

Don't you try to get your intentions across in the clearest way you know when you write?

Personally, if in Paul's presence, even though a man, i would not dare teach unless i recieved a direct command from the Lord.

Isn't "I" what he meant when that was written???

If it was a command from the Lord, don't you think that is what he would have said?

Look at what was normative for the culture/times and where that letter would be recieved.

I think sombody is trying to driver on a solid surface that is not there.


Because of Golgatha,
g
Acts 20:32

M
MrBillPro

Paul, therefore, says, "I do not permit a woman to be a teacher." I wonder if Paul is scratching his head right now, wondering how he could have said it in laymen's terms any better.

G
ginnyrose

Neil finds this topic wearisome. So do I; we have been there, discussed this numerous times in the past. But the problem is that new posters come on board and are ignorant of these past discussions. In thinking of a reply I did briefly wonder if I could just go back and find my post and copy/paste it here but I think this goes against the rules.

I am reluctant to post a reply because people do not like long posts - and I would guess this would even challenge Enid's ability to be brief and to the point! This will be a long one, unfortunately.

For an introduction, I agree with Brothertom's understanding on this issue as well as Gregg's. Tom and Krispy have shared what the scriptures have to say so I will not repeat that. But would like to look at this issue from a woman's point of view which I do hope is the LORD's as well.

And another thing - I should say this: I grew up in a two parent home. I was daddy's girl, following him all over the farm. I would do anything to please my daddy and did. He loved me and I loved him more. My two favorite relatives were males, my maternal grandfather who was also an ordained preacher and dad's oldest brother who was also an ordained bishop. These guys were well read in theology, current events ands loved to have this young girl ask them questions because I also had an intense interest in these areas. I was well taught by them and experienced much love from them. My respect for them knew no bounds. The only female relative that meant a lot to me was my paternal grandmother but she died when I was 8 YO. She was loved and highly respected by her family. I had only a total of three aunts but they were too busy with their own children to give me the time of day.

God made man in his own image, male and female made he them: both sexes bear in themselves God's image. The differences inherent in the genders are put there by God for a purpose. Both males and females working in unity with the God is a picture of the Trinity in operation. This is an awesome concept if you meditate on it. The trouble is that the enemy has worked successfully to mar and destroy this unity, this oneness. Jesus came along and had some strong words about the marriage relationship - no divorce, e.g. With the Holy Spirit infilling a couple this concept can experience some limited restoration.

Too many females have experienced abuse at the hands of unregenerate males - not all: Eve was not a victim of abuse. Since this is the case many females mistrust males. They look on males as having all the power and blessing to do whatever they please and they want this as well. So when males say - quoting Scripture "that a woman shall not teach men" defenses rise up, ears are shut and nothing more is heard, unfortunately. It is also true men have used the scriptures to limit woman's ability to function in the church - because of it it has deteriorated from being a brotherhood to a social club called 'church'.

But what does the scripture say? What does Bible history teach us? There is where one needs to look to help us understand what is meant.

Woman were well protected and cared for under the OT law. Check it out. Read all you can and visualize how these laws functioned where the rubber meets the road. And read the prophets where God got angry with how the men were treating their wives...God loves woman because we were also created to reflect HIS glory. So, how can we best do that in life?

Unlike God, males are not omnipresent. So females were created with the ability (neither are we omnipresent) to multitask unlike most males who are given to focus intently on one subject at a time - and do not disturb! A mother has to have the ability to do her work and yet listen to what her children are doing. In her work she may also be doing several things at one time. If the woman would not have been enabled with this ability, woe on the home! No work would ever get done! I know - I birthed five children: four boys and one girl and they were very adventuresome, I promise!

What can females do? Consider - the world's population is over 50% female. Someone needs to be able to minister to them. And that means you, us woman. The biggest problem here is that many woman will reject an other older woman's attempt to help because they are so convicted in their hearts about what is wrong. So females can look for an audience elsewhere's because of rejection. The reality is that godly males also experience rejection - rejection goes with the territory, regardless of gender.

Males, when doing work can stay focused on one task and do it well. Males, generally speaking, do not respond emotionally to trying situations. They think logically, objectively on how a trying situation should be handled. And therein lies the greatest reason why males only should be in church leadership. Women, on the other hand can inflame negative emotions and soon you will have a mess. You want order and it is bad when a situation is obscured by emotions rendering it impossible to fix, to deal with.

Gregg made a worthwhile observation when he said:

"If this be true of whatever fellowship, the issue will not be what your sex is, but love for the whole body and all will walk in a spirit of meekness. Regardless of the task, a person will recognize that they are doing whatever they do to glorify Christ, not because they are a man or woman. In submission one to another, the issue will be edification, recognizing that whoever teaches whatever the Spirit wills through God's Word, it is towards walking in Christ Jesus, and not whether they are male or female."
(I am not sure how Gregg would interpret this in the context of church leadership - but the concept of serving each other is the crux of servanthood.)

This is my understanding of the WORD and how life is where the rubber meets the road: as God's daughters let us look to see how we can serve him by serving others. Let us look for tasks that need to be done and get with it and never mind whether you will ever receive any acknowledgement or praise. Do it for HIM! and don't be telling others about how good you are - this is ego at its worse. Let us delight in doing the things that are not deemed worthy of much adulation. The workers there are few and much opportunity to serve there. Let's get busy! and God bless!

ginnyrose

PS: BTW, Gregg, what does the scripture say about bobbing hair?
Did God not make the genders different and should our clothing not reflect this honor and distinction? It was thus under OT law and did the New Testament cancel this concept? Blessings....ginnyrose

L
Lysa


g: "if --->'you'

M
MaryJane



A mother has to have the ability to do her work and yet listen to what her children are doing. In her work she may also be doing several things at one time. If the woman would not have been enabled with this ability, woe on the home! No work would ever get done! I know - I birthed five children: four boys and one girl and they were very adventuresome, I promise!

____________

Having had five children of my own, four boys and one daughter, I now understand why my mom always use to say she had eyes in the back of her head whenever we were trying to get away with something. The only way a mom can get anything done is by doing ten things at once:)
______________________________

What can females do? Consider - the world's population is over 50% female. Someone needs to be able to minister to them. And that means you, us woman. The biggest problem here is that many woman will reject an other older woman's attempt to help because they are so convicted in their hearts about what is wrong.

______________________________________

All I can say is AMEN and AMEN!! I agree you with one hundred percent. I really do believe honestly that younger women should be sitting under the teaching of older sisters in Christ who have walked with the Lord. Their wisdom is worth so much. I believe there are certain topics that women should only go to other sisters for council on. Our vital role in the family of God is in helping one another live our life in submission to Jesus, and daily to one another!

I will admit that after reading some of the posts in this thread I felt a bit angry, some come off as attacking women, but then I prayed about it and realized I was just allowing my emotions to get the better of me:) There is much work to be done and much need in this world for those who are followers of Christ, so much so that it makes these discussions seem all the more silly.

God bless and thank you for your post:)
mj

S
sermonindex


Too avoid any needed confusion, let all the married women stay home and mind their business while the single women go into the ministry. When the single women get married, they will have to go home and mind their business and be a ministry there for other women and children.

Women who are married and Pastoring a Church has a husband that is a weakling.

There is no biblical conclusion that we can draw from that even suggests that women are eligible to Pastor a Church.

Work beside yes.

Women do something far better than what a man can ever do and this is something they shouldn't shun and that is they know how to comfort. They comfort in preparing food, clothing, lodging. Women who gather together and pray are a determined sex who won't let go until they get what they want. That is probably why there is more women in the Church than men. Women know how to comfort their husbands, they know how to calm him down, they know how to prod them on when they need support.

If anyone knows of a woman like that, let me know. :-)

C
Ceri

Ginny Rose and Maryjane - great posts! Thanks.
I too have to keep my anger in check at talk from some men!!

Quote:
Women do something far better than what a man can ever do and this is something they shouldn't shun and that is they know how to comfort. They comfort in preparing food, clothing, lodging. Women who gather together and pray are a determined sex who won't let go until they get what they want. That is probably why there is more women in the Church than men. Women know how to comfort their husbands, they know how to calm him down, they know how to prod them on when they need support.

If anyone knows of a woman like that, let me know. :-)
(End Quote)

Sorry Snufalapagus - I'm already married, don't think my hubby would let me go - he couldn't cope! :)

G
ginnyrose

Murray,

Mind detailing how a perfect male/husband should function? Just curious - thought you should have an idea since you are a male! :-) One hears a lot about the women but a male???

BTW, I agree a woman is not to pastor a church...but then church history has stories of how single females went to the field, brought people to the LORD and there were no males to pastor. When males did come on the scene they ousted the women and the church/ministry went to pot. So, is it about power or servant hood? You know what? We know what the scriptures says and we do well to obey and leave these other situations be and let God take care of it.

ginnyrose

R
rbanks

Can a woman teach?

Well can a man teach?

Here is scripture: 1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

The apostle says that we are to let the anointing that we have received of Him abide in us and that we do not need any man to teach us but the same anointing will teach us all things.

I don’t look for a man to teach me but for the Holy Spirit to teach me and to lead me into all truth. Let s just say I was looking for these posters on SI to teach me. Well, with all the posts being made on threads like this one, “IHOP” and “should Christians tithe” I would really be confused with all the carnality of those who think they are right and not even realizing that they could be wrong.

I only pray that people reading these posts who may not be strong in the Lord or even saved as of yet, will realize that people can be wrong about what the bible teaches in some areas and still be saved. I hope that people will realize that people on SI are still learning and hopefully not let the carnal postings of people who seem to be the authoritative writer discourage you from going on with God.

I have learned to read what others say on here and not let it discourage me because of some of the hard things people write. Those who make bold statements not even considering other people feelings are still yet carnal. Those who think they know more than others still don’t know yet what they ought to know.

I pray that my life will be more pleasing to God and that I could be more of a blessing to others. I would like to close with this thought concerning what Jesus said in:

Matthew 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
Matthew 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

I pray that the Lord will teach me better how to minister to others and to realize that I just don’t know everything, but only hope to be known as one who truly loves God and also loves his people.

Blessings to all!

M
Miccah

rbanks...

In context my friend. 1 John 2:27 is referencing teaching by the Holy Spirit, not gender.

S
sermonindex

You know when I look at the times that Jesus address issues with women he was always on the side of the woman. The woman with the issue of blood , she was unclean when she touched Jesus but she received her healing and Jesus said not a word about it about the fact that she was unclean. The woman at the well asked him why he was talking to me for I am a Samaritan and Jews are not allowed to associate with Samaritans. The experts in the law said is it lawful to heal people on the sabbath .  He responds with ," which one of you would not pull your oxen out of the ditch on the sabbath" The women caught in adultery should have been stoned according to the law but Jesus ends up saying neither do I condemn you. When a prostitute pours an alabaster box on Jesus Judas protested but Jesus approved. When questioned why his disciples work on the sabbath Jesus says he is the Lord of the sabbath. He also says if you would have known what this means , I desire mercy not sacrifice you would not of pronounced the innocent guilty. He referred to David when he was on the run from King Saul and he ate the consecrated bread. Jesus said mercy faithfulness  and love for God was the more important matters of the law. It seems that this teaching the way it is being presented is legalistic and oppressive. Jesus said that we were not to use our authority to lord over people and it seems to me that this is what many people are saying. I mean a woman can not even share a word in church. You mean as a pastor I can not ask my wife to share a giving teaching or share a revelation. God has used my wife on several occasions to teach me about a situation that was coming up in our lives through a dream. The dream came to past and I know the devil was not warning me about what he was planning to do. This feels like bondage not the perfect law that gives freedom. Love 

J
jimp

hi, most men; me included are basically stupid.we dont mean to be but itis in our nature.it is easy to point the finger to woman and blame her for all of our problems..eve for example...it is always someone elses sin or fault that is causing problems in the home or church...certainly not mine...look at how self righteous ;pardon me righteous iam. niether jew nor greek or male or female has been torn in my bible... i must stop now and look in the mirror.jimp

A
AniLiDodi

Romans 16:7
"Greet Andronicus and Junias (Junia) my relatives who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was."

Iounias-Junia , a common Latin female name meaning "youthful", a Christian woman at Rome, mentioned by Paul as one of his kinsfolk and fellow prisoners, Thayer's Greek Definitions. Also see the following pages for more proof.

It was the Papal that changed the text to make it appear as a man, not a woman. The change took place in approximately 1298 which was during the reign of Pope Boniface VIII (Benedict Gaetani, reigned from 1294-1303). You will remember that the first person to record the two as "men" was Aegidus in Rome, a contemporary of Pope Boniface VIII. The Catholic Encyclopedia goes on to tell us that this pope was accused of infidelity, heresy, simony, gross and unnatural immorality, adultery, magic, loss of the Holy Land, death of Celestine V, and more. When King Philip IV of France brought these charges against him five archbishops, 21 bishops and some abbots sided with the king! 7 This evil man had persuaded the pope before him, Celestine V, to resign, and then following his own election as pope, imprisoned the elderly man until his death.

Also, Debra being the Judge for 40 yrs. is leading, which implies teaching, correction, guidance, hearing from God for the people, etc. She was a Prophetess, who delivered the message of the Lord to the people of Israel. I knew a preacher once who even tried to twist the fact that she was married, because he was against women teaching/leading, etc.

Most importantly....Galations 3:26:28 says, "For you are ALL sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither MALE Nor FEMALE; for you are ALL one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

I recall asking the Lord about women preaching, teaching, etc. The Lord answered me and said, "Karen, if you just see a woman, then you are not hearing by the Spirit."

Be careful of whom you believe the Lord will speak or deliver His message through. The Holy Spirit has no gender..and all is to be done by way of the Holy Spirit. Any other way, is not of the Lord.

All For His Glory,
Karen Francis-Marchal

S
sermonindex


by jimp on 2010/4/25 0:36:34

"hi, most men; me included are basically stupid.we don't mean to be but it is in our nature.it is easy to point the finger to woman and blame her for all of our problems..."

Men are not basically stupid...[does this mean that women are basically wise?] We are all people, and subject to the foolishness of mankind, but The Holy Spirit through Solomon's testimony said;
Ecclesiastes7:27

27. "Behold, this have I found, saith the preacher, counting one by one, to find out the account:

28. Which yet my soul seeketh, but I find not: one MAN among a thousand have I found; but a WOMAN among all those have I not found.

29. Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions."


The Bible says to the contrary. Women are the WEAKER VESSEL, whether you perceive otherwise or not.

Not the inferior vessel, but the weaker vessel. We are absolutely equal in our standing before the Lord.

1 Peter 3:7
Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the WEAKER VESSEL, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.


........and this is why, all the way back to our Grandmother and Grandfather..and this is the Apostolic command.

1 Timothy 2:11

11. Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

12. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

13. For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

14. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

15. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.


This kind of thinking is wrong, and pardon me, but smacks of the character and thoughts of King Ahab. He sat and couldn't figure out how to steal his neighbor's vineyard, and ran pouting to his strong and wise wife, the queen mother. She accomplished what he was too cowardly to do.[ murdering the owner and confiscating the vineyard..] This is exactly the same idea that Jesus directly counselled us that HE hated....the JEZEBEL spirit; her teaching and her deeds.


Our sisters are to be honored and loved as equal children of God, and they are part of the Priesthood of the believer, and they have giftings that we must receive. However, in this temporal realm of life on Earth within the church, they are subject to weakness and must not rule over men, or teach them. The usurping of this authority will lead to the wrath of God, and apostasy. Look around, and see.


As a married man, I don't want or need a momma for a wife, and as an shepherd of God, surely it is so.


1 Timothy 3:4-6 (King James Version)

4. One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;

5. (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

6. Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.


Anyway, our sisters are equal and deserve equal honor and love, but it is abundantly clear that they have there place in the Divine order of the Body that functions different than brothers.

S
sermonindex

"This kind of thinking is wrong, and pardon me, but smacks of the character and thoughts of King Ahab. He sat and couldn't figure out how to steal his neighbor's vineyard, and ran pouting to his strong and wise wife, the queen mother. She accomplished what he was too cowardly to do.[ murdering the owner and confiscating the vineyard..] This is exactly the same idea that Jesus directly counselled us that HE hated....the JEZEBEL spirit; her teaching and her deeds...."


This has been seen so much around here and elsewhere that it's wondered how others do not even notice or pray and deal face to face with it.

I have only been in the position once to act directly regarding this... and this one only comes out by prayer and fasting: not without confrontation.

It's funny how people react when confronted by what the scriptures tell us. Seriously though, i do not think anyone can expect any different than what Elijah faced. The names and faces are different, but that spirit only responds one way.

It is dumb of me just to spout off rebellion, and look no further. It's like picking a flower from a dandylion thinking it's going to kill that weed.

Think now, onus is on the man's failure, allowing another... giving (the God given place he is to be,) up. Isn't this what Adam did?

Wasn't this his act of rebellion?

g

J
jimp

hi, i try humor on the morbid and get religeous responses. who taught us more about worship than the uninvited woman who broke into the party and anointed Jesus and kissed his feet and cleaned them with her tears and wiped them with her hair.His response when she was rebuked... thou gavest me no kiss etc.jimp got to go back to the mirror.

S
sermonindex

The mirror said there is still work to be done. Thanks jimp . Oh Lord that I might break through too?

S
sermonindex

Mind detailing how a perfect male/husband should function?

Lets leave the word "perfect" out.

First and foremost, thee most important part of a Husband is that he love his wife. I can't stress that enough.

If he is a minister, he must serve the Lord. His attentions are not completely on his wife. He loves his wife, but loves the Lord more.

As a regular husband, he can love his wife more. I have witnessed divorces amongst Christian marriages that men who were not ministers putting a strain on the marriage while trying to put God first.

We put God first when we put things in the order that God has established. "Husbands love your wives". When we do that, we are putting God first. By abstaining and defrauding one another, we are putting obstacles in the way that need not be there because the man or the woman was not called to be in the ministry.

There is by consent, a time when we would seek the Lord with prayer and fastings. But in a regular marriage, a man who takes on a wife, must serve her. And in serving her, she honours him.

That is why Paul wished that all of us would be single. As a single man I can serve the Lord without distraction.

Men have the cart before the horse so to speak. Husbands are to love their wives by serving them. And in serving, she will make him to shine.

Christ serves His body, and by serving His body, His body worships and praises Him. This is a living principle that is so opposite as to how the world thinks.

Thanks Sandra for asking.

R
rbanks


The bible says that there is neither male nor female in Christ but we are one.

I appreciate Brother Tom’s posts concerning the role of women because of his maturity in the Lord and his ability to write with much biblical information. I always know that we will benefit a lot from his wisdom of years and the hardships he has come through for our Lord Jesus Christ. He has stated very graciously without demeaning the woman because of her gender.

I would like to just add something I have observed over the years in seeing God work in both genders. The word tells us that in these last days God is pouring out his spirit on all flesh (sons & daughters). There is spiritual work for all to do male and female. The gifts and calling of God are without repentance. I can think of two women at this moment that are filled with the Holy Ghost who are not pastor’s but preach where ever they are called to with an anointing that souls are saved, filled with the spirit, and healed.

I specifically would like to ask Brother Tom about the five fold ministry concerning his understanding and others as well if you believe the Lord has shown you without partiality. The word tells us that Jesus ascended on high and gave gifts unto men ( taking this to mean male and female) for the equipping of the saints. The bible says that he pours his spirit out to sons and daughters. Women prophesy as well as men in the scriptures. God can gift who ever He wills to. Doesn’t God gift male and female in the five fold ministry but also understanding their gender in what authority they are to be under.

I have always taken what Paul said to the women concerning not to teach nor usurp authority over the man as meaning the husband because it didn’t say a man but the man.
He also said to ask your husbands at home meaning that the leadership responsibility falls upon the husband. This is mainly for the women and men in the home because you can’t have two heads in a home. It was also a shame for a woman to speak over her husband in church because he is her covering. The wife is considered to be the fragile vessel and should be honored as such by her husband so that their prayers will not be hindered because they are to be heirs together of the grace of life.

But now let’s go further to the gifts by Christ for the body and I believe that God can and does gift male and female. We should not be looking at the gender but for the anointing to teach us. I think that it can also be pride in the heart of a male who refuses to hear God through a woman just because she is a woman. Therefore I believe Paul (who had no problem using women filled with the spirit in his ministry even telling others of the way of God more perfectly) has been taken out of context concerning women being silent in the church.

Blessings to all!

M
Miccah

"The bible says that there is neither male nor female in Christ but we are one." - rbanks


Again rbanks. Not used in context.

J
jimp

hi, when len ravenhill would preach at my home;quite often martha would say now thats enough len it is getting late and he would close.sometimes teaching comes in many forms... the woman at the well became an evangelist as Jesus waited for her.He did not rebuke her in sin or evangelism. schouls to this day separate men and women in there services.a woman in the back can hardly ask her husband in front a question without a disruption.some of you would make fine muslims with your phariseeical(never could spell)attitudes.jimp

M
Miccah

"some of you would make fine muslims with your phariseeical(never could spell)attitudes.jimp"


Come now jimp. You disagree with someone, so you then equate them with other satanic religions?

I beleive that my further involvement in this thread would be unfruitful.

S
sermonindex

I would like to talk about misogynism.

The church has actually been the main instigator in the continuation of this prejudice due to the idea that Eve was responsible for the fall of man.

When the world hears that the church says that man should rule over woman, this only backs up the abuse.

In fact, the way the love relationship works is that the man will work to please the woman and do the giving and the woman will receive what the man gives and show her pleasure which makes the man feel proud that he makes his woman happy and gives him his satisfaction. She will then be happy to let him be the leader as she will trust him.

For a woman to be able to submit and be a willing sex partner, she needs to feel that the man is utterly committed to the relationship and puts it first. It is not safe for her to be submitting to a man under any other terms because it is she who bears the brunt of conception and child raising. This has been programmed into woman by God in order to keep her safe from the man who after all has all the power in most societies, and commits most of the crimes against the opposite sex. The woman is weaker not just because of her child bearing role but also because she is the vulnerable one in a love relationship. A man can have sex without forming a deep bond but a woman cannot unless she has been damaged, and even so the bonding is occuring but she is in denial. He also has the role of the instigator of the love relationship.

It is traditional that it is the woman who dies of a broken heart - ther man often can just move on to his next conquest.

The woman who has been abused in her childhood has not developed a deep sense of her own value, and herself as a person, and she will lose herself and become the giver instead with her man which will not be beneficial to either. This is what is meant by ruled by her husband. It is not what God planned, it is the result of the fall of men. It is a curse. Instead it should be the woman who is `rulling` man, first of all by being his equal or helpmeet and secondly by her confidence in herself and lack of neediness in having to have herself affirmed by him so that he can open up his heart to her and feel safe with her in revealing his emotions which are a world of mists for him and which she can help him understand and he will then deeply bond with her and satisfy her own needs.

The church should be working to combat the misogynism in our societies and standing aginst the abuse of women not enforcing it by some of the attitudes seen on this thread.

Where are the men who are fighting against the sex abuse of young girls by men? Where are the men who want to stamp out rape? It is on a huge scale compared to the abuse of boys and then it is usually men too.Where are the Christian men who educate the world on what mysogynism is and who say no to it?

Why does a Christian woman who has been physically abused by her husband, sometimes a pastor, receive hardly any help or support from the leaders in the church?

Brenda

L
Lysa

Again rbanks. Not used in context.

Who is the authority of the Bible?

I have heard the Lord through prophecy speak sentences out of the Bible from Genesis to Revelation and it made perfect sense and spoke to my soul and others who were present.

I can usually agree with you Miccah and others on Scripture but when you and others who try to tell everyone else "what" is in context, this seems controlling of the Word of God. (To me) (reworded).

I have only this to say, I have never ever said that every woman should preach and or teach (as I will be quick to say that every man should not be allowed to preach either, let alone pastor). (removed two sentences) We get on here and talk about how bad the church is and who is the majority that led us to this point?

(removed last paragraph, it wasn't edifying, I apologize.)

Added: We do know that there camps that will never agree. I do not believe that women can preach because "I" want to preach, I believe that women can preach because I have been in the meetings of one who God used mightily and her husband was the pastor. She fought the Lord in the beginning about preaching, she said everything that has been said here to God and for some reason we will never know until we get to the other side, He still called her to do works that I've never seen before or since her ministry.

All I can say is when you've witnessed God working in someone what the majority of christendom say God wouldn't do; you come to believe God over men (human race). I hope and pray for you that one day you experience and see what I have seen in this area of God working mightily!

Miccah, I really pray that God blesses you and yours, you are a mighty warrior for the faith!

S
sermonindex

If i try to kill a dandelion by pulling off the flower, it only causes more flowers to grow.

more flowers means more seed in the end, and with a breeze, they scatter.

Aleister Beggs heard in a radio broadcast some months ago, had a series on "Slander". The truthforlife website was gone to and this was downloaded. (i will do well to listen to it again, and everyone on this website would find it helpful towards the "dayleez", whether dealing with family, friends,church, our thought life, or even typing posts.

He talks about... well if you hear it, you will see just how relative it is to this discussion.

Thank you Kraftfrau for the post on misogyny(sp?). Though it was not even considered, due to not really being a major issue in this 'castle' anymore, it's now thought about.

Walking blameless before our Lord is not finding what is sinful in ourselves and going through the work of studying our own heart and purging what we think is wrong. That is like picking flowers off of dandelions. If his spirit reveals to us where we must "behold -fix our gaze on- the Lamb of God which takes away the sins of the world", that's a different story.

The reason ministers of the Gospel are led to the forefront of the battle, who preach so much aboout our sin is twofold, (and more). They first show we who walk into Christ how our idea of righteousness is just another word for sham, as well as revealing to the world the sinfulness of sin. Many there be, who in self-deception 'focus-their gaze' in on their sin, instead of 'looking-always-to the only One who cures the problem.

A dear brother was praying in assembly asking God to reveal to us our hearts, (in the sense of, if we know our failures, we can fix them.) The Lord made a way immediately afterward for the whole congregation to hear that we are to focus One alone, Jesus, who is the Author and Finisher of our Faith. It was so amazing to see change after change in this brothers life after that was revealed to Him. Even some in the congregation took it to heart.

Praise the Lord: His forever mercies are generously given daily!

Jesus did not come to the world to judge it, but to deliver it. This is the example we are to follow. Like Snuffeluphagus(sp?) wrote, "taking up the cross" starts in the home. This is the very "ruling" your household Paul spoke of in requirements towards elders.

The meaning of the word 'rule' has been bent backwards and outside in. More often than not, in the Pauline Epistles, after expounding on walking in the Spirit, he immediately hammers away at home life. This is the proving ground of our faith(fulness) towards God.

Our father Abraham ruled his household well, yet we find him not only engineering, but taking a very big part in preperations of hospitality towards three 'strangers' in Gen. 18.

God said Job walked blameless, and he did according to all that had been revealed Him. In Job's suffering though, there was time alot of time to reflect on what his life was really all about.

In all this, God was preparing Job for greater blessing, first in God humbling himself (yes he did) enough to even bother with a son of Adam who in his desire for God, needed humbling further. This book gives us example of the eyes of the Lord searching to and fro to see who will walk uprightly before Him. We see that blessing comes in the face of adversity, and it is only through a spirit of meekness bound up in forgiveness that this blessing comes.

I have seen this in my own home life. It was not until i quit with the "why me Lord" attitude, sought His forgiveness for what i did not even understand was wrong that it was shown me. When i forgave those who spoke ill of me wrongly, i realized that my wrong attitude in thinking i was soooo good that brought it on. Seeking God in the first place is what eventually put me on my face before Him. If i had it to do all over again, i would not trade those problems that sprang up for anything, because i now experience an outpouring of blessings from God that would have never come about otherwise.

Ruling your household is not about judgement. It is about forgiveness and compassion, taking up your cross, and, for us men, not just commanding, but getting our own hands dirty in helping solve the needs of those around us.

Elders are to rule their holdholds... how?

Nowhere are elders commanded to rule God's household.

Is your own household God's household?

The only right we have if we are a Christian is to die, and serve in whatever God shows us needs fixin', assistance, and forgiveness.

It's all about forgiveness.

CIAO!
g
Acts 20:32

S
sermonindex

Lysa said:

Instead it should be the woman who is `ruling` man

I would omit the word "ruling" to be what the bible calls a "Help meet", which by the way is used BEFORE the transgression.

Now Adam wasn't a stupid man. He observed all the creatures and named them all. He saw a male and a female.

Genesis 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

Even though, Adam had everything, God saw that Adam should not be alone.

Jesus said, "I will not leave you comfortless, I will come to you". In other words, "I will be a help meet".

Genesis 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called THEIR name Adam, in the day when they were created.

Even though there is a unity here, an equality, yet there is also an order.

Though we are one with Jesus Christ, we are not Jesus.

Though Jesus is equal with God, He is not God. He is the "LORD" [of] God. He is the Prime Minister so to speak and God is the President in one unified government.

It was God IN Christ Jesus reconciling the world unto Himself. It was the President in the Prime Minister.

When we honour the Prime Minister, we honour the President.

We can see a likeness of this union in Joseph and Pharaoh in Egypt. Pharaoh put almost everything under the feet of Joseph. The people went to Joseph. Though all these honours were bestowed upon Joseph, yet Joseph was not Pharaoh.

Though a woman can do all that a man can do, yet she is not a man. There is a union, but it's found in the prescribed order to which God has ordained for us to walk in.

S
sermonindex

"Our sisters are to be honored and loved as equal children of God, and they are part of the Priesthood of the believer, and they have giftings that we must receive. However, in this temporal realm of life on Earth within the church, they are subject to weakness and must not rule over men, or teach them. The usurping of this authority will lead to the wrath of God, and apostasy. Look around, and see."

I said this in a previous post, and for me, it is relevant. The reason why is that I have seen multiple examples that would support this observation, and not ONE that would disprove it. This devastation may not occur immediately; it may take a while, even years, but over and over, where women usurp authority over men, there is error and destruction following.

God knows the reason why, but I believe the weakness that Paul spoke of in women as the "weaker vessel" had to do with a propensity to be deceived.

1 Timothy 2 11-14

11. Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

13. For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

14. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.


I submit to you that this is the issue about women in authority; it is the issue of the propensity to accept deception; and therefore the great Apostle forbad it. Also , I might add, that this is in the Bible as inspired and holy doctrine. It was placed there , as all doctrine, for our safety and admonition from the Lord Himself.


Continuing to reject it, or to modify it according to your feelings or personal ideas will bring harm to you, and those around you. It is not wise to persist, no matter how you justify it.

M
MaryJane

Greetings

I submit to you that this is the issue about women in authority; it is the issue of the propensity to accept deception; and therefore the great Apostle forbad it.

_________________

I was thinking about this thread ans talking it over with my dh, he also mentioned that women have a greater propensity to accept deception then do men. At first I was offended(I will admit every now and then those awful feminist views that I was taught in school still linger for me) I took it as a personal insult that women were supposedly less intelligent and so therefor more easily deceived then men would be. My dh could see that I was getting annoyed with what my flesh was seeing as some of the "male superiority" thinking that I was sure being flaunted by some of the brothers in this thread. My dh counseled that perhaps I needed to take some time and pray about this, and since I have never really been one to support the idea of women being pastors I saw wisdom in his advice. The more I prayed about this the more clear it became, it is not because a woman is less intelligent then a man that she is more easily deceived, it is because as a woman I do tend to allow my heart/emotions to lead me more then I do my intellect. I have come to see that as a woman I am more easily swayed/deceived because my emotions can be manipulated and the enemy is very good at this. Even in getting angry over this thread and thinking negatively about some of the brothers who have posted, the enemy appealed to my emotions, intellectually when I thought this through I knew clearly what the Bible says about women preaching, "that it should only be under the authority of men" but emotionally I was deceived and got angry because in self I took offense to comments that were made about my gender.(my conviction) So this has been a very good learning experience for me. I will also take this time to repent of my anger and sometimes negative thoughts toward some brothers on the forum, even though I did not write or voice these attitudes here I still feel it was sin on my part and so I want to repent of that. I am thankful that God has allowed me to see this about myself and to grow in Him in this area of my life.

Just thought I would share what I am learning
God Bless
mj

G
ginnyrose

MaryJane,

You are learning about how damaging one's emotions can be to the decision making process and how you interpret scripture. Once you get this down pat, how will you handle it when you see other females interpret scriptures based on feelings, "I think", "I", etc.?

And the reality is that we are weaker physically which effects our emotions. Since this is the case, we are not strong enough emotionally to bear the heavier burdens that life tosses our way. That is why we need men/males who are strong. God bless them!

ginnyrose

S
sermonindex

Scripture is not interpreted . It is revelation from the teacher the Holy Spirit.

M
mguldner

one's emotions can be to the decision making process

I definitely see this with my wife, I love her though and I can definitely see why there is a need for balance. My wife refers to me as a robot with no emotions because I don't cry on sappy movies. :) Men are definitely missing apart of us that a woman provides such as emotions and generally woman show more compassion than a man.

S
sermonindex

If the two are one my wife can teach if I ask her to correct?

S
sermonindex

Can you tell me where I can study this info.?

S
sermonindex

by dmoney on 2010/4/26 22:44:58

If the two are one my wife can teach if I ask her to correct?

Ask God.

It varies from situation to situation.

If you are not sure, follow Paul's adminition.

The big issue is whether you are clear enough about what God says in His Word that your wife even in the role of teaching remain in subjection, and if she cannot, she is going to have alot of emotional baggage to deal with along with whatever she deals with already.

One BIG problem i have seen often is that women, being multitaskers, often focus on the group and not God when teaching.

Men on the other hand, have little trouble with this.


If a woman has a strong urge to teach a mixed group, never let her.

Women with women and/or children works a whole lot better.

CIAO!
g
Acts 20:32

G
ginnyrose

Brenda,

I sense in your post a woman who has experienced abuse by a trusted(?) male. I am so sorry for all the females who have been violated as such. This is a tragedy of serious proportions. It will impact a victim for life. What compounds the tragedy is that it was inflicted by the gender whose purpose is to protect the 'weaker' person but instead have used her to satisfy a moment's pleasure.

Brenda, I just wish you and other victims would be able to get beyond the wounds and allow the Holy Spirit to heal those hurts. One cannot undo the past but one can let go and trust in the WORD, whether we understand all the commands of not. We must learn to be obedient whether we like this command or no. We live by faith - doing what God says and trust Him for the results.

Our attitude towards males and their God given roles must be upheld, supported, encouraged by females regardless of our negative experiences with them in the past. Was my dad perfect? My grandfather, whom I adored? Or, my bishop-Uncle? No, absolutely NO. Males are fallen humans like we and they have weaknesses to deal with, just like we do. We cannot look to them as perfect humans without the possibility of failure. We fail and we expect others and God to forgive us, do we not? Should we not also extend this mercy and grace to them as well?

Sister, may I suggest that if there are males in your circle of family or acquaintances who abuse females that you distant yourself from them. You can not fix them. And cry out to God that he will in his mercy and grace restore to you that what has been lost. And please do not hold all males responsible for the failings of some.

God bless you, Brenda....

ginnyrose

G
ginnyrose

Women with women and/or children works a whole lot better.

Reminds me of Titus 2:3-5.

And this IS a tall order. Teach unruly children...or, rather teach woman how to take control of their kids.

Our church has been hosting VBS for several years now with the focus on reaching out into the community. Most of these community chidren come from one-parent homes...and they 'bounce off the walls'. All because of lack of training in the home....

Sisters, we have a huge job: teach these yong women to love their husbands and children: stay out of bed with other men! and do not make babies with them! This is sin!!! When you violate God's command you bring chaos upon yourself and society.

And the females do NOT want to be taught - but we do not surrender to these rebellious folks. We persist and keep on, and keep on. Tall order, ladies!

ginnyrose

S
sermonindex

Sorry for the long post don't know what happened?

L
Lysa

by snufalapagus on 2010/4/26 6:44:17

Lysa said: Instead it should be the woman who is `ruling` man


---------------------------

I am not the one who typed that sentence. So I feel compelled to take issue with you saying I said it!! If you would, would you please provide where I say that particular sentence?

Thank you!


S
sermonindex

You know when I look at the times that Jesus address issues with women he was always on the side of the woman. The woman with the issue of blood , she was unclean when she touched Jesus but she received her healing and Jesus said not a word about it about the fact that she was unclean. The woman at the well asked him why he was talking to me for I am a Samaritan and Jews are not allowed to associate with Samaritans. The experts in the law said is it lawful to heal people on the sabbath .  He responds with ," which one of you would not pull your oxen out of the ditch on the sabbath" The women caught in adultery should have been stoned according to the law but Jesus ends up saying neither do I condemn you. When a prostitute pours an alabaster box on Jesus . Judas protested but Jesus approved. When questioned why his disciples work on the sabbath Jesus says he is the Lord of the sabbath. He also says if you would have known what this means , I desire mercy not sacrifice you would not of pronounced the innocent guilty. He referred to David when he was on the run from King Saul and he ate the consecrated bread. Jesus said mercy faithfulness  and love for God was the more important matters of the law. It seems that this teaching the way it is being presented is legalistic and oppressive. Jesus said that we were not to use our authority to lord over people and it seems to me that this is what many people are saying. I mean a woman can not even share a word in church. You mean as a pastor I can not ask my wife to share a giving teaching or share a revelation. God has used my wife on several occasions to teach me about a situation that was coming up in our lives through a dream. Because she is filled with the Holy Spirit , the Teacher. The dream came to past and I know the devil was not warning me about what he was planning to do. This feels like bondage not the perfect law that gives freedom, Love. I would rather have my wife share a word than most of the pastors I see on TV that are teaching false doctrine . If a woman can be a judge and a prophet why can't she teach? What about the great commission go make desciples of all nations . Does that includes women ? Are the to make disciples of all? The command says all.  

S
sermonindex

Hi Lysa, I was reading your post and I cut that portion out. But when I went back to read your post again, you had said that you had edited a portion out of that original post, citing that it was not encouraging.

However, if you didn't say it, I must have gotten it from another post, and therefore, it's my bad and I apologize. It was from this thread though. I will scan it to see where this might have come from.

Thank you for bringing this to my attention. It's not my intention to be contentious.

S
savannah


Question: Can a woman teach???

Answer: She not only can but she MUST!

Hear the WORD of the LORD:

Tit. 2:3-5 The aged women likewise, that they be in behavior as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

As all can read above,women not only can but MUST teach.

Older women teach the younger women so that the next generation of younger women may be taught these same things by those who were once the younger women of the text. And so on...and so on...and so on.

The question to be asked is who are they to teach,what are they to teach,why,when,how,etc.

Who? Younger women(and children)
What? 'Teachers of good things',i.e. sobriety, to love their husbands, to love their children, to be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands.
Why? That the word of God be not blasphemed.
When? At all times
How? By example

Furthermore,

1 Cor. 14:33-37 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. Let your women be keeping silent in the assemblies, for it has not been permitted to them to be speaking, but to be subjecting themselves, just as also the Law says. But if they desire to learn anything, let them be questioning their own husbands at home, for it is disgraceful for women to be speaking in an assembly. Or did the word of God go out from you? Or did it come to you alone?
If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge what I write to you, that they are commandments of the Lord. But if any man is ignorant, let him be ignorant. Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak in languages. Let all things be done decently, and in order.

Let us carefully examine the meaning of these words.

RE: “keep silence” (verse 34 - KJV) -

The Greek word here for 'keep silence' is SIGATOOSAN, the present, imperative form of SIGAOO.

Three Greek lexicons say?
1) Analytical: 'To be silent, keep silence';
2) Thayer: 'To keep silence, hold one's peace';
3) Arndt & Gingrich: 'Be silent, keep still ... in the senses:

a. say nothing, keep silent ... b. stop speaking, become silent ... c. hold one's tongue, keep something (a) secret.'

A.&G. classify 1 Corinthians 14:34 under meaning:
a. 'say nothing, keep silent'.

Here are all passages in the NT where SIGAOO is found:
Luke 9:36 - "And they kept silence and told no one in those days anything of what they had seen."

Luke 18:39 - "And those who were in front rebuked him, telling him to be silent."

Luke 20:26 - "But marveling at his answer they were silent."

Acts 12:17 - "But motioning to them with his hand to be silent..."

Acts 15:12 - "And all the assembly kept silence."

Acts 15:13 - "And after they finished speaking..."

Romans 16:25 - "Kept secret for long ages".

1 Corinthians 14:28 - "But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silence in church" [referring to speaking in foreign languages].

1 Corinthians 14:30 - "If a revelation is made to another sitting by, let the first be silent."

1 Corinthians 14:33,34 - "As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silence in the churches."

The Greek word for 'speak' ("For they are not permitted to speak," "For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church") is LALEIN, infinitive of LALEOO.

This is the common word for 'speaking'. It does not have the special meaning of 'speaking noisily'.

In the text we have laleo directly defined for us: "Let your women keep silent", "for it is not permitted to them to speak".

"Keep silent" – "speak": these are the two opposites; and the one defines the other.

"Not Permitted" - Greek=Epitrepo - (emphatically, in the highest form) not allowed, not turned over or transferred, not given liberty, license, or leave, not suffered.

"Shame" - Greek=alscitron - an indecorum, from a Greek word meaning deformed.

If a woman speaks in the ecclesia, it is a deformity to the beautiful order set out by God.

Paul emphasizes "the commandments of the Lord" concerning the ecclesia that "all things be done decently and in order."

The Greek word for "decently" (euschemon) means "well-formed, noble in rank, decorous, comely, honorable" and the Greek word for "order" (taxis) means "regular arrangement, fixed succession of rank or character, official dignity."

For God is not the author of confusion (disorder).

"It is important to observe, now, that the pivot on which the injunction of these verses turns is not the prohibition of speaking so much as the command of silence. That is the main injunction. The prohibition of speech is introduced only to explain the meaning more fully. What Paul says is in brief: "Let the women keep silent in the churches." That surely is direct and specific enough for all needs. He then adds explanatorily: "For it is not permitted to them to speak." "It is not permitted" is an appeal to a general law, valid apart from Paul's personal command, and looks back to the opening phrase – “as in all the churches of the saints." He is only requiring the Corinthian women to conform to the general law of the churches. And that is the meaning of the almost bitter words that he adds in verse 36, in which – reproaching them for the innovation of permitting women to speak in the churches – he reminds them that they are not the authors of the Gospel, nor are they its sole possessors: let them keep to the law that binds the whole body of churches and not be seeking some newfangled way of their own.

The intermediate verses only make it plain that precisely what the apostle is doing is forbidding women to speak at all in the church. His injunction of silence he pushes so far that he forbids them even to ask questions; and adds with special reference to that, but through that to the general matter, the crisp declaration that "it is indecent" – for that is the meaning of the word – “for a woman to speak in church."

It would be impossible for the apostle to speak more directly or more emphatically than he has done here. He requires women to be silent at the church meetings; for that is what "in the churches" means, there were no church buildings then. And he has not left us in doubt as to the nature of these church meetings. He had just described them in verses 26. They were of the general character of our prayer meetings. Note the words "let him be silent in the church" in verse 30, and compare them with "let them be silent in the churches" in verse 34. The prohibition of women speaking covers thus all public church meetings – it is the publicity, not the formality of it, which is the point. And he tells us repeatedly that this is the universal law of the church. He does more than that. He tells us that it is the commandment of the Lord, and emphasizes the word "Lord" (verse 37)." (B.W.)

1 Tim. 2:11-14 Let a woman be learning in quietness with all submission. But I do not permit a woman to be teaching, nor to be exerting dominance over a man, but to be in quietness. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman, having been deceived, has come to be in transgression.

"Suffer not- KJV" - Greek=Epitrepo (emphatically, in the highest form) not allowed, not turned over or transferred, not given liberty, license, or leave, not suffered. This is the same word translated "not permitted" in 1 Corinthians 14:34.

"To Teach" - Greek=Didaske - to teach - this is the common word for teach.

A woman may be wiser, more capable, and better versed in the Scriptures than some men. But this is not the point.

These verses direct the women's sphere of influence to its rightful place - the home and family - where great good may be accomplished in bringing up children, showing hospitality, and working quietly to comfort and relieve the sick and sorrowful, and many other good works. Women have just as much responsibility and obligation as men to "always abound in the work of the Lord," and to give their whole lives in total, loving service.

"Usurp Authority" - Greek=Authenteo - to grasp, to seize wrongfully, to act of oneself.

This is exactly what happened to Eve in the Garden. She acted of herself which resulted in sin and grief. Eve should have looked to Adam (for whom she was made) for spiritual judgment, rather than acting on her own.

"The passage in 1 Timothy 2:11. is just as strong, although it is more particularly directed to the specific case of public teaching in the church. The apostle had already in this context (verse 8, "the men," in contrast with “women” of verse 9) pointedly confined public praying to men, and now continues: "Let a woman learn in silence in all subjection; but I do not permit the woman to teach, neither to rule over the man, but to be in silence." Neither the teaching nor the ruling function is permitted to woman. The apostle says here, "I do not permit," instead of as in 1 Corinthians 14:33., "it is not permitted," because he is here giving his personal instructions to Timothy, his subordinate, while there he was announcing to the Corinthians the general law of the church. What he instructs Timothy, however, is the general law of the church. And so he goes on and grounds his prohibition in a universal reason which affects the entire race equally.

What must be noted in conclusion is, that the prohibition of speaking in the church to women is precise, absolute, and all-inclusive. They are to keep silent in the churches –and that means in all the public meetings for worship; they are not even to ask questions. The grounds on which the prohibition is put are universal and turn on the difference in sex, and particularly on the relative places given to the sexes in creation and in the fundamental history of the race (the fall).

Perhaps it ought to be added in elucidation of the last point just made that the difference in conclusions between Paul and the feminist movement of today is rooted in a fundamental difference in their points of view relative to the constitution of the human race. To Paul, the human race is made up of families, and every several organism – the church included – is composed of families, united together by this or that bond. The relation of the sexes in the family follow it therefore into the church. To the feminist movement the human race is made up of individuals; a woman is just another individual by the side of the man, and it can see no reason for any differences in dealing with the two. And, indeed, if we can ignore the great fundamental natural difference of sex and destroy the great fundamental social unit of the family in the interest of individualism, there does not seem any reason why we should not wipe out the differences established by Paul between the sexes in the church – except, of course, the authority of Paul. It all, in the end, comes back to the authority of the apostles, as founders of the church. We may like what Paul says, or we may not like it. We may be willing to do what he commands, or we may not be willing to do it. But there is no room for doubt of what he says. And he certainly would say to us what he said to the Corinthians: "What? Was it from you that the word of God went forth? Or came it to you alone?" Is this Christianity ours – to do with as we like? Or is it God's alone, receiving its laws from him through the apostles?" (B.W.)

There is congruity in all the ways of God when the relations established by His law are observed. Man is the head, but only for nurture and protection and honour of the woman. Woman is man's equal fellow-heir of the salvation that is offered in Christ, but not to usurp the position that belongs to a man both by natural constitution and divine appointment. When both are conformed to the image of Christ, the two form a beautiful unit - "heirs together of the grace of life."

S
sermonindex

ginnyrose

Thank you for your concern but I am not speaking out of anger and bitterness. The Lord has already healed me, but yes, obviously I speak out of the experience of the many who have suffered more than the usual amount due to the misogynism which is rife not only in society but also in the church.

I am not a man hater and do not paint all men with the same brush, but even the best and most honourable will have been affected by this insiduous influence and the honest good ones will repent when they see just how much their attitudes have been tainted. This is something so evil and concerns the church so much, now more than ever as divorce rates in Christian couples has risen in the last 20 years or so to be almost as high as amongst unbelievers.

Not everything must be built up, there are evils which must be torn down. Some things that need to be pullled down are the fallacies that I have seen mentioned on this thread. I see also that some of my sisters have objected to the attitudes of some of the posts my men and rightly so.

Number one fallacy is that a woman is more vulnerable to deception than man. This is not a failing in women, it is the opposite, the failing is in men having the desire to deceive women due to his competitive and aquisitive nature. I am sure the men here will have to agree with me on this. Who has not heard of the desires of young men to know the ways in which to seduce women, in fact there are websites devoted to this pastime and shocking indeed they are for a woman to look at. How many young boys learn early on that you are much more likely to get sex if you say you love her. I am not saying that women have not sunk low in their rebellion against God, but they have not sunk in the same ways.

Having the rule over the woman should have no part in the kingdom where Christ has deemed women equal to men.

Number two fallacy is that a woman is overruled by her emotions as though this again is a failing in the nature of womankind. What rubbish. A woman is as much able to make logical deductions and be in control as a man and successful business women prove the point. Besides, a Christian man or woman is to be led by the Spirit and not by the emotions or the head and in fact it is a woman who is more likely to be submissive in order to grow spiritually than a man.Of course there are and have been very spiritual men, but in the course of things, the woman is often the most spiritual of a couple.

What does happen is that a section of the community which is being repressed is more than likely to be defensive and have problems controlling their emotions. This happens amongst other marginalised groups which have been stripped of their power, and men become `over emotional` in these circumstances too.

It is my belief that most men in the church have absorbed these influences since early boyhood and do not see it because they were so much a part of the society they grew up in and they are not entirely to blame when they are unaware of it. If they will spend some time thinking it through, and altering their attitudes, the result will be a building up of their marriages and much more happiness and God honouring for themselves too. The very reluctance to listen to a woman on this matter is an indication of how deeply entrenched the influence is.

There is however, another very real reason why a woman is the most stressed of a pair and therefore seems to be governed by her emotions and that is the extent of the ruination of the planet by toxins, which are more deletrious to her body than that of men. She carries more body fat and less muscle which means that she has more ability to store the toxins and her hormonal system is more finely balanced than a mans and likely to be disrupted. She is also more affected by the deficiencies of the `great` western diet. A good high raw diet and detoxification program will show just how wrong this fallacy is but most of all, if the men in her life will treat her with the respect that Jesus showed women in His time on earth she will learn to take care of herself and put the high value of herself that God has for her.

Brenda

S
sermonindex

misogynism, misogyny
"an extreme dislike of females, frequently based upon unhappy experience or upbringing."


Brenda; {Krautfrau]

It is plain to see that you have resentment toward what you perceive as injustices committed against your sex, females. It is also pretty easy to see that you generalize and categorize men into sweeping categories that reveal this, and that your ideas are a potpourri of radical feminism and secular humanism, and they are not based on the Bible, what we honor as the One and only true Word of God.


2 Corinthians 10:4-6 (New King James Version)
4. "For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds,

5. casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ."


Let me point out a few in your post, so you will see what I mean.

1.]"I am not a man hater and do not paint all men with the same brush, but even the best and most honourable will have been affected by this insidious influence and the honest good ones will repent when they see just how much their attitudes have been tainted."Brenda...

What information is this based on? First you say that you do not paint all men with the same brush...and then that "the best and most honorable have been tainted, and if they are honest, they will repent!" This is strait out of the feminazi playbook, and struts in the face of the Word of God. Are there loving and Godly men that have Jesus's Agape integrity flowing from them? In your eyes, they all have been affected by this "insidious" influence.

2.] "Number one fallacy is that a woman is more vulnerable to deception than man. This is not a failing in women, it is the opposite, the failing is in men having the desire to deceive women due to his competitive and acquisitive nature. I am sure the men here will have to agree with me on this."

Again, gross manipulative comparison..."Men having the desire to deceive women?" Wow! Agree? Again, where did you acquire this information? It is not derived anywhere in the Bible. Perhaps you are confusing the word of god with the gospel of Gloria Stiener?


3.] "....in fact it is a woman who is more likely to be submissive in order to grow spiritually than a man. Of course there are and have been very spiritual men, but in the course of things, the woman is often the most spiritual of a couple." Brenda..


Secular humanistic feminism, not the word of God.


4.] "If they will spend some time thinking it through, and altering their attitudes, the result will be a building up of their marriages and much more happiness and God honouring for themselves too. The very reluctance to listen to a woman on this matter is an indication of how deeply entrenched the influence is."Brenda


This is the issue, Brenda. "Thinking it through, rather than "casting down arguments and EVERYTHING that exalts itself against the knowledge of god, and "BRINGING EVERY THOUGHT INTO CAPTIVITY TO THE OBEDIENCE OF CHRIST!"

5.] "good high raw diet and detoxification program will show just how wrong this fallacy is but most of all, if the men in her life will treat her with the respect that Jesus showed women in His time on earth she will learn to take care of herself and put the high value of herself that God has for her."..Brenda


Brenda, a good diet is not going to help you or anyone change their heart, or will how the other sex treats you. Only walking in the spirit, and abiding in Christ Jesus will do that. You have received counsel from other sources, that are not Godly, and it is obvious that as Ginnyrose has said here, you do need healing. As a Godly woman, I'm sure she believes that it would be easier to receive this from a woman.


I hope you have been born again. Your posts however, do not reflect the fruit and the mind of Christ, but that of a radical feminist agenda. If you humble yourself, and pray, perhaps He will come, and visit you, and heal you. I wish you the best. It is an awful jungle out there, with Satan waiting to suck you in to his web, at every corner. That is why the Word of God, His message to the world, is exalted around here, for it is the heart and desire of Jesus Himself, and if the Son sets you free, you are free indeed. No one can hurt you, or manipulate you anymore.

L
Lysa


Snuf,

I see what you are saying - I did remove parts, I believe, could have been taken as a smart alec remarks toward Miccah that were not my intention. I removed that in like minutes of posting! (That preview button would be good at times like this!!) I honestly can't remember typing that, but nevertheless, [b]obviously I typed it if you quoted it![/b]

Please let me add (for all to read) that I truly [b] do NOT believe in the blanket quote,[/b] "instead it should be the woman 'ruling' over man," in any context. I do not believe that women should be or need to be ruling over men!

I know you weren't being contentious and I apologize for not being able to remember!
God bless you snuf and thank you for your kind reply!

S
sermonindex

ANY WOMEN WHO ARE READING THIS THREAD AND ARE BEING ABUSED, PLEASE LEAVE, even if your pastor says you should stay and be obedient. Your husband will not stop unless he gets treatment and is able to change his attitudes towards women. There are Christian agencies which are dealing with this problem and trying to educate the Christian men who will listen but even if you cannot find one locally just go into a refuge and then start the process of insisting that he gets therapy specifically for domestic violence even if it is mental abuse, if he wants you to return.

http://www.pinn.net/~sunshine/book-sum/xtian2.html

"The primary thing that the Christian community can do to change the misogynistic system is to break the silence about it."

Brothertom

I thought that it was banned here to question someone`s salvation just because you do not like what they say or to accuse them of having motives :

"What is not tolerated:

Slander. Ill-will. Unnecessary accusations, comments.

Just as well, it is especially frowned on to be jostling with each other by way of accusation towards each others intents and motives."


But anyway I think you have aptly demonstrated my points.Please refuse to be bullied ladies. This is a very powerful stronghold.

Brenda

S
sermonindex

OH, page 8 is so good, i wish now that i would have just shut up and read along as this thread's string was unwinding.

Reading back on what was posted by me, i failed to clearly define how i was in stance regarding the issue and some may have taken what was written the wrong way, and seeing the lack of order to the thoughts posted, some things look just totally wrong.

i was very wrong in doing this
and i am sorry for it
and if i could without ruining the thread
i would pull all that was typed from here.
Also,
if this is seen from me in the future,
somebody please step in and write something
or at least a short sharp shock of a message
will show you are kind enough to care.


One thing that will not be recanted was the comment about cults and false religions.

Lysa, if you have not found the info you were intrigued with, try searching "cult histories' or from the examples given:

1. Theosophy
2. Christian Science
3. Mormonism
4. Jehovah's Witnesses
5. Islam


Thank you all,
&
Good biidings
towards a day blessed
in our Lord
and Saviour
Jesus Christ,

CIAO!
Gonna' go to work.
II Cor. 5:19,20,21,6:1
g

S
sermonindex

It always turns out like this, this is just TERRIBLE.
-----------------------------------------------------------


Re: Can a woman teach???
just when i thought it was safe to go back into the water..........."money", this topic, among a half a dozen turgid others has plowed, and hashed, re-hashed, shredded, pulped and composted here, again, and again and again and again, to very little profit.

But you can get Brother Don Courville's "Desert Survival" teachings here for download, or listen to the wonderful preaching of Duncan Campbell, who was blessed enough to be counted faithful, to witness the Hebridean Revival, thats the real onus of this wonderful website.

I dont mean offense brother.

S
sermonindex

you are absolutely correct when you write to Tom:

"Brothertom

I thought that it was banned here to question someone`s salvation just because you do not like what they say or to accuse them of having motives :

"What is not tolerated:

Slander. Ill-will. Unnecessary accusations, comments.

Just as well, it is especially frowned on to be jostling with each other by way of accusation towards each others intents and motives."

--------------------------------

Sister, i am not a moderator here, but Tom should be ashamed of what he wrote to and about you, period end of sentence. (i hope your reading this Tom)

using such invectives and slander as, Tom writes :

..."that your ideas are a potpourri of radical feminism and secular humanism, and they are not based on the Bible..."

....."This is strait out of the feminazi playbook, and struts in the face of the Word of God"....

"Again, gross manipulative comparison..."Men having the desire to deceive women?" Wow! Agree? Again, where did you acquire this information? It is not derived anywhere in the Bible. Perhaps you are confusing the word of god with the gospel of Gloria Stiener?"

(Its "Steinem" Tom, and you have the ill mannered attributes of a bully to ask Brenda "where did you acquire this information?" re; man's propensity to decieve women. Probably thru the pain of walking thru this world, and you spend much bandwidth excoriating her. How would you feel if i wrote at you, "Vietnam vets that say they suffer from PTSD are just nancy boy wimps, who just ought to man-up"?
would that be Christ-like of me?)

and here's the kicker Tom, a statement SO LACKING in grace, you should be ashamed of yourself:

"I hope you have been born again. Your posts however, do not reflect the fruit and the mind of Christ, but that of a radical feminist agenda"

SHAME.

Moderators, brothers, dont you think this has gone on long enough? I just pray that Brenda has not been stumbled too deeply by the bites and slashes of those who enjoy as such.

M
Miccah

Natan. I love you brother, but you are just as guilty as Bro Tom, as I am by calling you out.

You may disagree with Tom, but what Tom said bears merit. There is an agenda behind Krauts posts. It is apparent to any who read it. I have read similar posts like this from others who post here, and from others who have been banned here. Krauts post is based on emotion instead of biblical authority.

I love you my brother, from the driftless region in Wisconsin.

S
sermonindex

What? Neil (Natan) getting embroiled in controversy? ...who would have ever seen that coming?? lol

ahhh... reminds me of the old days.

Neil and I have had our disagreements over the years, very heated at times too. But I love that man like a brother.... even tho we may never meet this side of heaven face to face. When I get there I'll be looking for him right up front (unless I get there first, in that case I'll be waiting for him)

My point? Let's not lose focus here. We all claim to be part of the Body of Christ. We're all brothers and sisters. Let's disagree, but lets do it honorably.

Krispy

M
MaryJane

Greetings Brenda
I can only say after reading your post that I do not agree with anything you have shared here, seems like there is a lot of "I" and "ME" in what you are saying, a lot of focus on self. Personally I want to die to self and I want to be a servant to others. I also want to learn to live in submission to my husband as the head of the house and authority over me and my family because that is Biblical.

I know you said that you do not hate men, and I will take your word on that but you do seem to come across in what you write as having a real mistrust for all men in general and I think perhaps that is a issue in your life you may want to take before the Lord in prayer?

God Bless
mj

S
sermonindex

MaryJane

I see a lot more selfishness in your post if you will deny what goes on in the church and fail to support your abused sisters just because you yourself married a good one.

I hgave no agenda other than the truth and am not connected to any ministry or otherwise connected to this subject.

Thanks Natan, a brave man indeed.

Brenda

S
sermonindex

I love you too brother, "Kraut" is Brenda. You are Christtian, Tom is....Tom, but this thread is just stench, we have been over this territory again and again and again, and the spirit he wrote to her, is just off base.

The Bible is FULL of "emotion". and to say Brenda has "agenda", everybody has "agenda", but do they have Grace?

Tom's post was lacking in grace,his words lacked balm and healing, and there it is.

Let me tell you something, i might have told you, that in my tent=making writing, i've had to do a crash course in islamic theology, and how that relates to "jihad". You know what i found? "fundamentalistic" Christianity (protestant) and "fundamnetalistic" Islam are mirror images of each other, the difference being those boys arent afraid to murder and kill, they have a "Cal/Arm" debate going. Shia is like the RCC and the Sunni's are like the Protestants, and they love to whack each other for "heresy".

the reason i brought that up is, look how they cover their women, head to toe, and ever seen the video stonings of adulteress's from pre-9/11 Afghanistan?


and now we got accusers ganging up on a female poster, one who accuses her of buying into the Quote "feminazi" agenda?


cmon, get real, ya'll, try and squash your inner "pharisee". and I dont mean you Christiaan.

neil

M
MaryJane

MaryJane I see a lot more selfishness in your post if you will deny what goes on in the church and fail to support your abused sisters just because you yourself married a good one.

_________________

Greetings Brenda

Sorry you felt my post was selfish, as for defending others who have been abused...sister I myself have been abused by my own family member an older brother, all while my dad ignored what went on. IF you let it sister those kinds of things will eat you up, I chose to trust in God and let HIM heal me of those wounds. I know that their are those in both genders who are sinful and abuse people, I have seen women do this as well, but to accuse all men as your post comes across is wrong. I will stand and support anyone male/female who is being harmed because I know that is what God would want of me, but I do not agree with accusing others simply because they are of the opposite sex. Not all men who are saved have agendas and want to deceive.

Oh and for the record, my husband is not "good" no man is good or woman for that matter only God is "good" My dh will tell you that himself:) its only Jesus working in my husbands life that has caused him to be who he is. I guess my question to you is "do you trust that Christ has changed these men into HIS own image and that they desire to love HIM and extend themselves for you as they are called to as brothers in Christ?"

God bless you Brenda
mj

Edit: Brenda you wrote:

I hgave no agenda other than the truth and am not connected to any ministry or otherwise connected to this subject.

__________

sister I did not accuse you of having an agenda, I was responding to your post and how it came across to me personally.

S
sermonindex

you wrote:

to Brenda:

"but you do seem to come across in what you write as having a real mistrust for all men in general and I think perhaps that is a issue in your life you may want to take before the Lord in prayer?"

due respect beloved, you don't know what's gone on in her life,and you don't know what her prayer life is like. I don't know yours, you don't know mine.

and i'll tell you what, in this evil society, what examples would any woman have to trust in men at large?

i'll give you one in my tiny life, just recent. a very close family member revealed to me, ex post facto, that another YOUNG family member, close to me, was raped, and NOT by a stranger.

i was boiling. i asked, calm-like, "how come you didnt tell me?" she said", coz i know you're you", and in my mind, at that second , i was figuring how to track that baby demoniac down, which would have been real easy and to END HIM. but then, God the Holy Ghost spoke to me and said "Thou shall not murder", to which i said, "i know Lord" ...but still smoking inside, i t5hought, maybe i could "brush" his teeth with the barrel of a revolver, causing this lil monster to soil himself. to which God replied, "NO!, I will tend to this"...and i gave it to God to handle, because when He does a job, he does it right, whether it be Revival, or Divine Punishment, or to led sinners to Messiah....OR "Pour down His Spirit on ALL flesh", God is perfect and true in all He does.

and that includes healing this lil girl who was raped, you have no idea the damage wrought upon her tender soul. its truly heart breaking, all i can do is raise my son up Right in the Ways of God....and not be whacking out rapists, though my flesh and fury says , "do it".

in short, leave this sister alone, its between her and God the Holy Ghost, and men, you aint helping, you are hindering Him.


S
sermonindex

MaryJane

The agenda comment was for someone else.

I have already said that I do not consider all men to be the same, but the fact is that womem are downtroden and abused in great numbers and the only way to destroy this cancer is to talk about it and expose it. There are many men who are involved in exposing this cancer too and who want to see women treated better.

I have no axe to grind for myself, I am well past the situations, and because of what I suffered, I want to help other women and men also as they need to be free of this bondage. It is only in facing it that marriages will reflect the glory of God more.

You sound as though you would rather cover it up - it is not a question of God healing - He does but the crime should not therefore continue.

S
sermonindex

(i am laughing)

You're the "pot"

I'm the "kettle"

and what color are we?

controversy.

I pray everything is going blessedly well for you Marine, and your kin. Lord love you, neil

M
MaryJane

but the fact is that womem are downtroden and abused in great numbers and the only way to destroy this cancer is to talk about it and expose it.

___________

The topic of this thread was about women teaching over men and if this is Biblical or not.

You sound as though you would rather cover it up - it is not a question of God healing - He does but the crime should not therefore continue.

__________________________________

I am not sure what your talking about now. Again the topic is about women teaching over men and if this is Biblical or not. My conviction is that it is not Biblical for a woman to teach over a man unless she is in submission to those God has placed over her, such as her husband/father/elders of the church. I have no desire to cover up abuse of anyone, I just do not see it as a crime to believe what the Bible teaches that women should submit to their husbands and husbands are to love their wives as Christ loves the church.

Perhaps we are talking about two differing subjects,(not sure) and as Neil suggested I might best serve the Lord by leaving this thread. I will pray for you though sister.

God Bless you
mj

W
wind_blows

Neil you wrote:and i'll tell you what, in this evil society, what examples would any woman have to trust in men at large?
_______________

Wow if I follow this line of thinking then how could I function as a family in the body of Christ? I trust the example that Christ set and I trust those men in my life that are following God by their fruit and love for Christ.
That is how as a young woman I can trust men:)

in Him
ellie

S
sermonindex

i try to be precise with words; that is why i wrote "men-at-large", not "brothers in Christ".....as you know, a big difference.

G
ginnyrose

Brenda,

I am deeply grieved as I read your post here...

Brenda, you still are suffering from a lot of pain and all that goes with it...

Males are, according to scripture, required to be the leader and woman are to submit to their authority. This is the result of woman listening to the serpent in the Garden, Genesis 3:16. 1 Timothy 2:14.(And we can blame Eve for being so stupid but that will not change a thing. If Eve was so stupid, why do females today who have the Spirit of God still sin on occasion?) God decreed it to be so. You can fight it but that will not change a thing - it will only worsen it. I promise.

Oh, Brenda, your post grieves me so much I just want to weep...sister, males deserved to be loved and honored! I am still married to the same man after 43 years and together we had four sons (today son #2 is 37 yrs. old!). I love to see how our daughters-in-law relate to our boys. They submit and in turn the husbands love them, protect them just as Paul commanded in Ephesians 5:25. It works!

Brenda, you wrote:
Number two fallacy is that a woman is overruled by her emotions as though this again is a failing in the nature of womankind.

Have you ever talked to anyone who works in prisons? Do you not know that female inmates are known to be mean to each other? Far more so the males. They have this distinction! Blame men for it?

Brenda, I am a woman, 63 YO and I tend to think emotionally, but with time, training at CPC and working there, I have, to a measure, learned to think Biblically, objectively. But I am still a woman and can get upset at injustices. And lady, the women in my circle of acquaintances who have not had the experiences I did have the problem still. And they are Christians...Sure, there are males given to think and respond emotionally but they are not the norm, more to the exception. My husband does not think emotionally, I promise! I have never seen him weep! Even after losing both parents, a daughter, a father-in-law to death! But does this mean he does not love? NO! He does and it is demonstrated by his actions.

Sister, I worked at a Crises Pregnancy center for 15 years, having heard and dealt with all manner of sins known to man and imagination except for homosexuality. There we counseled our clients that in order to get on with life you have to leave the past, take charge and quit the blaming game. This can only be done through the power of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Brenda, you wrote:
Who has not heard of the desires of young men to know the ways in which to seduce women,...

Brenda, at CPC we noticed a disturbing trend and that is how females will work to seduce males! Evie shared on here in another thread how her husband was at a dance (while they were separated) and how a female tried to seduce him! This is just one incidence, but lady, it is common and happens all the time! But will the feminists talk about it?

Brenda, submission is not hard when you submit to the LORDSHIP of Jesus Christ First. Do not fight him! The way others will know you have submitted to him is how you submit to those in authority around you!

Lady, you do not love males. I cringe when I read your post...Please, for your own sake and those around you let go of the past and ask the LORD Jesus to make you new. It can be done but only if if you want it and that means you must lay aside all your excuses, resentments and philosophies and ask Jesus to give you a meek heart.

Brenda, Your post still overwhelms me and I do not think I have done a decent job in replying to it since you wrote about so many things about what is wrong with males and how they abuse females. Just do not forget that females abuse as well - shall I give you a story?

Our daughter-in-law is white and Hispanic. Her Mexican dad was busted for drugs and imprisoned. Her mother then took up with males of all kinds and allowed them to rape our DIL! The mother allowed her boyfriends to rape her daughter at a very young age, like 9 YRS.! The mother abandoned the children many times - our DIL had to care for her younger siblings when they were left alone and hungry. This family of six children were in and out of foster homes until they came to a home were three of them were adopted by a couple in our church. Jessica has undergone therapy with a godly lady and she has changed. She loves our son, she thinks her husband is the greatest man that ever walked on this earth! and she loves her two boys. She is a very good mom to them.

So, you see, the blood of Jesus Christ can cleanse a person of those deep hurts and make things new. I have seen it in our own family ...

Blessings,
ginnyrose

S
sermonindex

Wow... here, let me help make this thread a little less controversial... What do you all think of modern versions? And what about that whole Calvinist thing?

:-)

Krispy

G
ginnyrose

Can't think of anything funny to say, Steve.

Ya'll been hunting turkey lately?

ginnyrose

G
ginnyrose

Hey, Steve, maybe you need to ask your wife to come online here and tell the others what kind of jerk you were before you came to the LORD!

ginnyrose

W
wind_blows

Brenda

I do not want you to feel like your being ganged up on because that is not my heart at all and I know that is not the heart of either mj or ginnyrose. I do however want to share something with you in love, much of what you shared in your post does come across as if you are angry and blaming all males as being unworthy of trust and respect.
At times sharing via the internet can be difficult and maybe that is not your heart but I have had to learn to choose my words very carefully when sharing with others so that they will hopefully not be misunderstood. Just something for you to consider. Consider also that what you wrote makes it sound as if men are to blame for all of a woman struggle or troubles and that just really is not the case if you think about it.

Any way I will pray for you, seems their is a lot of hurt their in your posts and I know that Jesus can help you in this:)

in HIM
ellie

W
wind_blows

"men-at-large", not "brothers in Christ".....as you know, a big difference.

_____

See Neil that is the issue some of us have with Brenda post she is not talking about "men at large, she is talking and posting about brothers in the church?" I agree it is a big difference...
__________________________________________________
Quote from Brenda: I see a lot more selfishness in your post if you will deny what goes on in the church and fail to support your abused sisters just because you yourself married a good one.
__________________________________________________

in Him
ellie

W
wind_blows

For Mr. Kripsy:

Can a woman teach....Yes but them men they are just not so good at learnin;)

(my attempt at country humor...I think I spent to much time at the ranch hehe:)

S
sermonindex

page 9 of this thread i wrote this:

"just when i thought it was safe to go back into the water..........."money", this topic, among a half a dozen turgid others has plowed, and hashed, re-hashed, shredded, pulped and composted here, again, and again and again and again, to very little profit.

But you can get Brother Don Courville's "Desert Survival" teachings here for download, or listen to the wonderful preaching of Duncan Campbell, who was blessed enough to be counted faithful, to witness the Hebridean Revival, thats the real onus of this wonderful website."

----------------------------------------------

this is the kind of thread that just brings reproach, and i didnt re-enter this abomination until i read brothertom questioning Brenda's salavation, and using word's like "feminazi" towards her, that is just wrong, and i will always confront wrong, cyber or face to face.

"look how they love one another"...its no wonder the church in america is flacid and limp. please moderators, either end me here, or this thread.

W
wind_blows

this is the kind of thread that just brings reproach, and i didnt re-enter this abomination until i read brothertom questioning Brenda's salavation, and using word's like "feminazi" towards her, that is just wrong, and i will always confront wrong, cyber or face to face. "look how they love one another"...its no wonder the church in america is flacid and limp. please moderators, either end me here, or this thread.

_____________________________

You know brother no one in the last few posts has spoken or written unkindly. In fact, I, ginnyrose, and MJ have all posted in love to Brenda. Reaching out to her is not an unloving thing to do, ignoring someone and pretending it isn't an issue however is.

In my heart I am praying for Brenda and love her very much in Christ but that does not mean I can not be honest with her.

Did Brenda say she would like the thread closed down?

in HIM
ellie

Edit: Neil as I shared with Brenda, posts can easily be misunderstood, so just let me make really clear that when I wrote this post to you I am not filled with anything other then love for you and Brenda. Perhaps mj is correct maybe there is two different topics being discussed in this one thread.

G
ginnyrose

Brenda, after rereading my post, I got to thinking more about female abusers. They exist. Let me tell you a couple stories...

My husband's grandfather was widowed and in due time he remarried. He was warned by acquaintances to not marry this woman because she had a bad reputation for being mean. But he did not believe anyone could be as mean as she was reputed to be.

Monie married Mattie and he found out she was every bit as bad if not worse then it was rumored. The worse thing she did (that I know of) is she got so angry with her daughter she pulled a braid out of her head! This daughter since then always had emotional problems. Matt was a very religious woman. I asked my husband's aunts why the preachers did not intervened in this situation. They said they tried but nothing worked. Since she was a religious person it did befuddle people who were not close to the family. Towards the end of grandpa's life he was removed from his home, away from his wife because the children feared for his life! (BTW, her first husband died under mysterious circumstances. The saying was that she died in a hunting accident. Others now wonder if she did not have something to do with it.)

Another:
Ten years ago I witnessed/heard an abusive situation. I was working for the US Census Bureau and working on the field. The man was a nice, cooperative person, but his wife (or friend) was ugly and treated him badly. The sounds that came through the walls were not happy sounds. The neighbors talked about how she treated him...

Another:
My paternal grandfather was an abusive man. He talked mean to his wife, and one son. This son joined the army during WW2. While he was gone grandfather wrote him a letter asking him for forgiveness. Uncle survived the war and when he came home his dad grabbed him and hugged him, kissed him. Today when uncle shares this story he will still tear up.

Brenda, when people do not walk with the LORD all kinds of evils are possible, females are no exception. Everyone with in their circle acquaintances can become a victim.

I am so glad God can restore and make things new...! PTL

ginnyrose

C
Ceri

Brenda
My heart went out to you reading your post.
Please believe me that there are men out there fighting abuse, there are men wanting to stamp out rape.
When I worked for the Police I went on a course in abuse and the lecturer apologised to any Chrsitians present saying that hte church is the number one offender. However two years ago when I came finally came forward as a victim of abuse and rape for eight years by a deacon at our church, the detective allocated to my case told me that it isn't that the church is the number one offender of abuse - but the church is the number one target for offenders! which puts a different slant on it.

This is due to the atmosphere of love and trust we have for each other - the fact that there is a fear of judging people in the church - not wanting to be seen as gossiping about people. My abuser could groom me quite openly in church and in front of church people as no-one would ever question his motives or believed any thing like that could ever happen in our church!

While going through the police investigation the most vicious flack came from other women!! while my church leadership and men who were the abusers best friends, until I came forward, showed me much love and care. One deacon in particular was my rock and supported the leadership through - even after discovering that his own daughter was also a victim of his best friend!!

A lot of changes have now been made as a result of my case and we have child protection officers and all childrens staff are vetted.

I would recommend that you check out a British Christian organisation called 'Churches child protection advisory service' - known as C.C.P.A.S. They run a helpline, bookstore and information, travel around training church leaderships in issues of abuse, domestic violence, and other issues. Our denomination has now set up a national representative for CCPAS - a lovely young man, who keeps in touch with me. One of our church members also works for them. CCPAS after reading my testimony of how God brought me through this time in an amazing and miraculous way are now publishing my testimony as a powerful weapon in the fight against abuse in the chuch.

It is true Brenda the church does back off from such issuesa nd there is inexperience and lack of knowledge in dealing with victims of abuse - but here is a change happening and a growing awareness.

Leaderships do need to take stock and face up to this and place safe guarding means in place - In churches in Britain this is happening on a wide scale now and the issue is being dealt with seriously and openly which is why I can now talk openly about my past and people are being set free.
Take heart Brenda - God is exposing the rot - I lived on Psalm 139 all those years in that God was seeing everything and He would say to him 'right this is it - no further, the things done in secret will be shouted from the roof tops!! Would like to share more with you.

Abuse and domestic violence could fill a new thread I fear.

S
sermonindex

( quote) Let me tell you something, i might have told you, that in my tent=making writing, i've had to do a crash course in islamic theology, and how that relates to "jihad". You know what i found? "fundamentalistic" Christianity (protestant) and "fundamnetalistic" Islam are mirror images of each other, the difference being those boys arent afraid to murder and kill, they have a "Cal/Arm" debate going. Shia is like the RCC and the Sunni's are like the Protestants, and they love to whack each other for "heresy".(quote)

  It is funny you said that because that is exactly what the Strategic foresight Group said when they introduced the Alliance of Civilzations . The only difference was they said that evangelical and protestant fundamentalist along with radical Islam were an enemy of Civilzation and should be extinguished. It almost sounds like you are ready to join
the fight? Matt. 24&25 Brothers and sisters we need oil
in our jars if we can not be patient through this how in
the world would we be able to walk through persecution un offended like Steven in the book of acts. May we not to be found to have fallen short of God's rest Hebrews 4 

S
sermonindex

This is a very strong case you have made on
the word of God . Thank you for the time you spent on it . Does this mean women can not even sing on the worship team ???

S
sermonindex

Ceri

I was very much encouraged by your post - maybe misogynism and domestic violence in the church will be the next thing in the media after the child sex scandal, though it is possibly less of a problem in evangelicalism. My own son was abused by a United Reformed minister who was running an amateur dramatics group along with a lot of other boys and is now in prison. I am not campaigning against this though, if you can call it that, as it is already known about from the media coverage and my own interest is abuse in evangelical circles. Thanks I read up on the CCPAS and see they are doing good work. I know some ministers in the US are actively trying to educate the church about the influence of misogynism. The world should be able to look at the true church of God and see that the men in it are treating their women in a way that convicts their own attitudes but that does not happen despite scriptural commands that we love each another. Maybe the verse is thinking of this. If the world`s women see that Christian men treat their own women in a Christ sacrificing way they would flock to the churches in order to scoop one for themseves and at least hear the gospel.

Yes ginny I am angry all right as anyone would be at what is being ignored and it is typical that bringing up the matter will trigger denial, attack towards the carrier of the message and attempts at defamation of her or his character (I am being unforgiving and therefore angry)and a misinterpretation of what they are saying. I have not felt it necessary to state the case that there are female abusers in the world and the church, I thought that would be obvious. Pointing to it however, does not excuse the much much greater numbers of women that suffer from male abuse even in subtle ways like her needs not being met. It is interesting that Muslim women will defend the veil and the way their religion treats women. In psychological terms it is called Stockholm Syndrome. I guess they don`t want to face the truth as the marriage is all they have. However they are dragging their sisters down with them by not facing the truth.

I have forgiven my abusers and through it able hopefully to serve my brethren, men and women by exposing this evil wherever I see it raise its ugly head like on this thread. The issue is very much to do with the subject of the thread and in the manner that Paul is interpreted over the
treatment of women. We are to submit to EACH OTHER.

Brenda

G
ginnyrose

Brenda,

I checked out the definition of misogynism and found it to mean: an extreme dislike of females, frequently based upon unhappy experience or upbringing.

My first response was "why do they dislike females so much?" But the definition indicates it is because of experience or upbringing. Therein lies your answer, Brenda.

What did females do to evoke such an extreme dislike for them?

Now if you want to talk about sexual abuse perpetrated by males against the innocent, you must also remember females do it as well. But in the church?

What church do you go to? The church consists of blood washed saints. There is a popular social club out there that calls itself the 'church' but it ain't. It is no gathering of righteous people: it is a gathering of unregenerate folks who use religion to soothe an
otherwise defiled conscience.

There are so many people in worldly 'churches' that have little concept of holiness and purity. Fornication is regretted but can't do anything about it. People are mesmerized by filth that comes into their homes via the tube and internet. They may talk about how bad it is but are powerless to do anything about it and why is this?

It is because people do not know the LORD. They have no clue what it means to walk with him in all purity and holiness via obedience. Would you know the worse clients I had in terms of immodesty (a minister's wife, no less) and rebellion were people from the Assembly of God/Pentecostal churches?

Religion won't cut it but Jesus does.

If you are in a church that tolerates fornication, adultery what else can you expect? Paul says to 'not let it once be named among you'. And how often is once? In my neck of the woods it means 'one' - how about yours? why do you differentiate between fornication among lovers and those initiated by adults towards children? Do you not know that a behaviour begun elsewheres will also eventually afflict the young, the innocent?

Brenda, this issue is not just a male issue. All - males AND females - have contributed to it. To be angry at males only and not understand how females' conduct may have contributed to it is hiding your head in the sand and ignoring the obvious. It is also the method the feminist agenda uses to bash males.

Brenda wrote:

"I have not felt it necessary to state the case that there are female abusers in the world and the church, I thought that would be obvious."

Brenda, you were bashing submission to males. From your post there is no indication given that you were even aware of it.

Brenda wrote:
"If the world`s women see that Christian men treat their own women in a Christ sacrificing way they would flock to the churches in order to scoop one for themselves."

This would worry me much: I would not like it if a female would come to our church with the express purpose of snagging a husband and not being regenerated. BTW, it is also known that there are more females in the church then males.

In all, I am so sorry your son was abused by a male. I know full well the damage this will inflict upon a person.. BUT the blood of Jesus Christ can cleanse him. His blood had healed others and he can be cleansed as well. Psychology cannot fix it. Only God can. And you must also get rid of your anger because it contaminates your life as well.

Blessings,
ginnyrose

S
sermonindex

Here are two Evangelical sources of information, one is a ministry to fight domestic violence in the church.

http://www.marriagemissions.com/you-and-your-church-can-fight-against-domestic-violence/

http://www.herald-of-hope.org/jcastle2.html

By far the majority of cases of violence is male against female. The numbers of men who are abused is small although many may feel they receive the `cut of the tongue` and some may think that it is equally true of both sexes. However, the real aim of men who bully physically and mentally, is for control through fear. It is rather silly to think that a man who on average is multiple times stronger than a female of the same size (though I am sure that someone is going to bring up a site complaining about female wrestlers who bully men,) who can be controlled because he is afraid of a beating when he only has to extend his arm to stop it.

I have brought this subject up because it shows very well how much misogynism exists in the church as women who go to their pastors invariably receive scant understanding and are often more damaged by telling him about it as many women recount with great sorrow. Some are peruaded to stay and continue to be beaten.

It is the misogyistic view that if the man punches or even rapes a woman then she must have deserved it. This is deeply entrenched not only in males but in females. He gets away with things but she is blamed. She is a slag if she has sex outside of marriage but he is sowing his wild oats. It goes back to the fall - Adam blamed the woman.

This however should not be allowed to happen in the church. There should be no discrimination towards anybody but there is. This one is kept quiet though and it has been demonstrated that even women will deny it - despite the fact that there are ministries to combat it.

It is so easy to bleat out that it is the fault of women as well as men but the fact is that young boys are poisoned at a very young age with the fallacies I have already mentioned and many more. It is not their fault that they are infected with this poison but most males do get brainwashed into it. One has only to look on some sites to see it in its full manifestation and its view of women as no more than sex objects. Even though good Christian men will object to this extremity, they will fail to see the insiduous effects in their own thinking.

It does not happen to females in any where near the same degree though they are exposed to equally damaging sound bites such as `men are only after one thing` but this is usually later on in their teens. The damage done to boys is much worse and they grow up fearing the female sex as well as desiring them. It causes men to close their hearts to the female sex and they shut down emotionally to them. It often takes a loving wife for the damage to heal.

This is what Christian agencies want to address, the re-education of men so that they see when they have had their faulty views formed.

ginnyrose I will not be repeating things I have already said. I would just like to request that my salvation is not repeatedly questioned.

Brenda

S
sermonindex

HI Brenda,

I have been following this part of the thread with interest. I am well versed in men abusing woman. I grew up with an alcoholic father who beat my mother countless times. She has so many black eyes, and even had her jaw broken one time. She was abused mentally and physically and in Scotland, where I was born and raised, this has always been a major problem. It breaks my heart and angers me every time I hear of a woman who has or is being abused. I know the generational damage that it does to familes and it certainly is like a cancer or a poisen.

I think the problem that you may be having on this site is that you speak in terms of "The Church." Or "Christianity," yo speak in broad strokes which would not be well understood in America. On this site, and I would include myself in this, we have very clear views of what it means to be a Christian. You mentioned in an earlier post about the church that had problems with sex abuse of children, I am assuming you were reffering to the Roman Catholic church. Well, most on this site(sorry guys if I do not speak for you) would consider the Catholic church as a religious institution and not a part of the Body of Christ. So, when you make continued referece to "the church," I think you are causing confusion amongst many, perhaps you could give us your definition of what that means to you?

Can I suggest that the prolems that you are raising are societies problems and I totally agree with most of what you say if it is in the context of society at large and religious institutions. Yet in your last post you wrote this ........

"This is what Christian agencies want to address, the re-education of men so that they see when they have had their faulty views formed."

I think this kind of statement will not bring clarification to what you are trying to say, or maybe it represents exactly what you are trying to convey? I would imagine that there are very few people on this site who believe that the answer to the cancer of the soul which, in your case would be the abuse of woman, would be "re-education." Abuse of woman knows no social boundaries. It effects the educated and the uneducated because it is exactly what it is, its the effect of sin. Yes, sin. Sin at its root, not a lack of understanding. All the understanding in the world will not help these men, only Jesus can. This is the answer of "The Church." This is the one and only answer. If society at large has a problem in this area, and I believe that you are correct, then the only answer is Jesus Christ and HIm crucified. Its re-generation and sanctification that brings about change, real change, eternal change. My father came to Christ at the age of 49, 21 years ago and the beatings stopped immediately as did the drinking. Christ was victorious and had broken the chains that had enslaved by fathers family for countless generations. I know that his father and his fathers father had been an alcoholic and abusers and I can only imagine how far this went back in that family. Yet, praise the Lord Jesus Christ the chains of darkness and the generational curse had been broken, not by might, nor by power nor by re-education, but by the Spirit of the Lord changing a man from the inside out.

Brenda, I pray that you are healed completely and your son too. There is one source for this kind of healing, one alone, and His name is Jesus. I know that you have my prayers and the prayers of many of the saints on this site, many of them awesome men of God..........brother Frank

W
wind_blows

I think the problem that you may be having on this site is that you speak in terms of "The Church." Or "Christianity," yo speak in broad strokes which would not be well understood in America. On this site, and I would include myself in this, we have very clear views of what it means to be a Christian. You mentioned in an earlier post about the church that had problems with sex abuse of children, I am assuming you were reffering to the Roman Catholic church. Well, most on this site(sorry guys if I do not speak for you) would consider the Catholic church as a religious institution and not a part of the Body of Christ. So, when you make continued referece to "the church," I think you are causing confusion amongst many, perhaps you could give us your definition of what that means to you?

_______________
I think this is a great point Frank. You hit on many of what my thoughts were this morning as well.

_______________
Brenda: I do want to understand where your coming from so let me ask you, you said we are to submit to each other? The Bible does teach that I wife is to submit to her husband as the head of the house hold(my husband believes this, as do I) and that the husband is to love his wife as Christ loves the church.My husband and I both believe this to be true and in our marriage through Christ Jesus we both now walk in this truth. Is this your understanding as well of what a Biblical marriage is? IF a husband does not love his wife as himself, then he would be in sin, just as a wife who is unwilling to lovingly submit to her husband is in sin. I think sadly there are those in both camps who abuse this verse for their selfish desires but when both husband and wife are walking with the Lord this kind of love and care for one another will make a marriage strong and a blessing:)
Ephesians 5:22-33 (22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. 24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her)

I will also be praying for your family to continued to be healed in Christ Jesus.

in Him
ellie

S
sermonindex

Again, i beg indulgence of my sisters for veering off topic a wee bit, i'll try to be short.

"Dee", brother Dee, you might have got me wrong here in what i wrote about my studies into Islamic theology, and such theology having a mirror in aspects of Christianity.

The only reason i had to do a crash course in islamic theology, is to track and figure out, what in their religion impels them to wage this new war, this "jihad" of their's. What their complaints are, how they butress this murder, their theo-divisions.It's a "tent-making" job i have, strategy, a strategic outlook is to KNOW your adversary. and i can tell you this, they, what are called "IJ's" (islamic jihadists) are not monolithic. They want us to think they are in unity, but they are not, group after splinter group, sunni killing shia, killing salafi.etc

How they DON'T mirror our Faith (i didnt say "religion")

in Two very very important Aspects:

They DON'T have the 66 Books of our Bible. (they have the Koran, which i put in the same class as the "book of mormon")

and they DON'T have Jesus, Whose Blood cleanses all sin, nor God the Holy Ghost, our Helper, Who leds us into further sanctification.

but what we both have is "religious fussing" over disputable matters, that's what grieves me, as well as THEIR propensity to kill in the pursuit of "jihad", which is sin times infinity, as they will one day learn to their eternal horror.

last, secular global organizations, like this, "Strategic Foresight group", i pay little mind to, they are like buzzing flys to me, i just await the day, that the powers of this world make ownership of Bibles illegal, that's the day satan will make a crucial mistake, watch the church grow then! Glory!

like the bumper sticker about guns? "You can have my Bible, when you pry it out of my cold dead hands".

Know what i mean?

Thank you beloved sisters, sorry to veer off the path, i treasure you all in the Love of Jesus, neil

S
sermonindex

ellie and Frank

I thought that I had made it clear in earlier posts what I meant when I say the church. But anyway, hope this clears it up :

The church is the body of Christ who is the head and consists of those who are born again of the Spirit and washed in the blood of the Lamb.

You have demonstrated just where the problem lies : that people inside the church are not seeing this as a problem as much as outside the church.

Not all people who come to Christ have their minds fully renewed and especially where they are blind due to early and pervasive cultural influences. This subject is a case of such and it is when they are taught which attitudes of theirs are affected that they can repent and live a more godly life and have a more blessed marriage.

There are Christian men, born again who are trying to do this and have written books about it. My own experience is that my minister showed absolutely no understanding when my abusive marriage ended and I was in a traumatised state. He only said that as a believer I did not have to have PTSS - post traumatic stress syndrome. Of course I have had contact with other believers who have been in abusive marriages - some women affected are pastors wives - and they invariably say they got the same treatment from their pastors and elders.

Yes I agree that one is in sin if one is not loving their wives as they should.

Brenda

W
wind_blows

Yes I agree that one is in sin if one is not loving their wives as they should.

___________

What about wives submit to their husbands? This is scripture...

Saying a husband is in sin if he does not love his wife as he should is true but wives can be equally in sin for not lovingly submitting to their husbands...

S
sermonindex

And if he is beating her??

S
sermonindex

Brenda you asked:

"And if he is beating her??"

Jesus replies:

"Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Matthew 7:20-23

a husband who beats his wife "works iniquity", anyone who argues that is far from the Kingdom of Heaven....or beats his children..or beats his neighbor, for what did Jesus say was the second greatest Commandment?

everyone here knows the answer to that.

W
wind_blows

Brenda those things do happen, I have seen it myself.It is tragic and should be dealt with in the body as sin. I have also seen women who choose to obey God and have their husbands completely changed by it. I have also seen wives who for safety reasons have to leave the situations and get help outside the home. At some point if a man falls into sin and does this kind of thing and continues on doing so then they are not walking with the Lord. They are in rebellion and sin and they need to get their life and heart right with God.

However...
I am asking about men who are saved, men who walk by faith and who are willing to lay down their life daily for a fellow believer. I am asking about those who are committed to their wives and families, that believe that the Bible is the Word of God and who love their wives as themselves. The scripture says for a wife to submit to her husband? I am talking about in a marriage where both husband and wife are walking in the Lord, is a wife in sin if she does not willingly and lovingly submit to her husband as the head of the house? What do you do with that scripture I referenced, what is the Lord showing you concerning that verse?

Ephesians 5:22-33

W
wind_blows

Neil wrote:
Brenda you asked:

"And if he is beating her??"

Jesus replies:

"Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Matthew 7:20-23
__________________________________

Exactly!!! I think that is the point that many have been trying to make and share here is that their is a "real" distinction between a man who is truly walking with the Lord and one who is just claiming to...

S
sermonindex

wind-blows

If the husband is loving his wife then of course she shall submit to his leadership role.

S
sermonindex

This discussion is not about wives submitting to their husbands, how can that be in dispute - it is clearly scriptural, it is about even godly men who have attitudes which are not of the kingdom and misogynistic even slightly and about the refusal of the church to see that this is a problem.

S
sermonindex

Hi Brenda,

My mother actually had the opposite problem. She was told by pastors and friends alike that she should leave my father and seperate from him. Now please believe what I am about to say, I am in no way formulizing this, but the Lord spoke directly to my mothers heart and asked her to stay. I know that this messes with a lot of people's common wisdom and I am in no way trying to lay down a standard, I am simply giving testimony to what my mother heard the Lord sat to her. She suffered 16 years of hellish behaviour. And all that time she would tell her children that this was a battle for her husabnd, my fathers soul. And as I said earlier, my father came to Christ, like everyone else, broken and on bended knee. Should all follow this path? God forbid, what all should follow is the Word of God and the small still voice. He will never lead us wrong, He will never leave us nor forsake us. By the way, everyone who meets my mother comes away saying that she is a saintly woman. She just smiles at that. She knows that the peace and the joy that reigns in her heart was refined in the fire , yet she was never alone in the crucible, for the Son of God stood with her. A Christian woman once said to me, "I want what your mother has." The Lord whispered in my ear, very gently "No she does not." There can be a hellish price to pay for following the Lord wherever He leads(emphasis on "where He leads) but there is eternal treasure in the hearts of the saints who do. Treasure that can only be measured and guaged by love and peace and contentment and joy.

All I can say Brenda is that we will get in wrong many times, men in leadership , men in the church but following hard after Jesus will never lead you astray. It is His work to work in the hearts of men and if you mean by "re-education," the work of the Spirit through Godly council by Godly men that I would wholeheartedly agree with you. If, on the other hand, you mean a program or book or a lesson plan, then I would have to respectfully disagree. These deep issues are issues of the heart, this is exclusively the Lord's domain and we all know the Scripture "It is not by mignt, nor by power, but by my Spirit sayeth the Lord." ...........brother Frank

S
sermonindex

Brenda said:

This discussion is not about wives submitting to their husbands, how can that be in dispute - it is clearly scriptural, it is about even godly men who have attitudes which are not of the kingdom and misogynistic even slightly and about the refusal of the church to see that this is a problem.

Krispy says... er, quotes God who said (thru Paul):

1 Timothy 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

This is in reference to in the church. Period. And he goes on to explain in the next 3 verse why this is so. And when you go into the qualifications for an elder (pastor) it is obvious to all that men only are to be considered for these positions. (Man of one wife, having HIS children under subjection, etc etc.)

It is utter CONFUSION to say that the man is the head of the woman, and that the man is the spiritual leader in the home.... and then go down the street to a church where a woman is the pastor and teaching (in authority) over men.

Scripture is clear... and these multiple pages of opinions mean nothing.

I don't care what someone's back ground is, I do not care how hurt someone has been by someone else. The BIBLE commands obedience. Period.

The Marine in me understands this. It's as clear as day. It should be for all who claim to follow Him and believe the Bible.

Krispy

W
wind_blows

This discussion is not about wives submitting to their husbands, how can that be in dispute - it is clearly scriptural, it is about even godly men who have attitudes which are not of the kingdom and misogynistic even slightly and about the refusal of the church to see that this is a problem.

__________

Actually Brenda the topic was not about abuse at all, it has digressed into a couple of different topics. You began talking about abuse and the main topic of the thread was about whether a woman could teach men or not. To say or imply that a woman who is beaten is on par with a woman who is told she may not teach is a huge leap and not on the same level don't you think?

A woman teaching is not Biblical in my understanding if she is teaching over men, with out the covering of her husband and the elders in the church. I may be misunderstanding you(please correct me if I am??) but are you are saying that a woman not being allowed to teach over men is the same abuse as a women who is being beaten or sexual abused? The Bible does give clear teaching on this topic and its not abuse for the church body to say that a woman should not speak if that is what the Lord is leading them too.


Edit:to make somethings more clear:)

W
wind_blows

Frank wrote: It is His work to work in the hearts of men and if you mean by "re-education," the work of the Spirit through Godly council by Godly men that I would wholeheartedly agree with you. If, on the other hand, you mean a program or book or a lesson plan, then I would have to respectfully disagree. These deep issues are issues of the heart, this is exclusively the Lord's domain and we all know the Scripture "It is not by mignt, nor by power, but by my Spirit sayeth the Lord."
__________________

I agree with you on this Frank. Well said:)

S
sermonindex

Women not being allowed to teach over men, or hold authority within the church over men is the same as women who have been beaten or sexually assaulted? I truly hope thats not being implied...

What an insult to women who have been abused if that's the case.

Krispy

G
ginnyrose

Frank wrote:

All I can say Brenda is that we will get in wrong many times, men in leadership , men in the church but following hard after Jesus will never lead you astray. It is His work to work in the hearts of men and if you mean by "re-education," the work of the Spirit through Godly council by Godly men that I would wholeheartedly agree with you. If, on the other hand, you mean a program or book or a lesson plan, then I would have to respectfully disagree. These deep issues are issues of the heart, this is exclusively the Lord's domain and we all know the Scripture "It is not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit sayeth the Lord."

AMEN, brother!

Scripture also says that "ALL things work together for good to those who are called..." Romans 8:28. Are we allowing God to use the bad things of life to reform us, to shape us into His image? Shaping, forming requires lots of pressure, tension. Do we fight it? or will we submit to it and ask God to help us to be open to its lessons? This applies to all who are serious about our faith. To fight it only worsens the situation. Modern feminists do not understand this and never will.

ginnyrose

D
DIEDTOSELF

How about a ministry outside of a church? Does a man have to be the leader of the ministry even if the ministry is for the families of those left behind by drug and alcohol addiction? Which in the most part directly deals with women and children. I recently left the church I have been attending over this issue. The Pastor insisted on no matter what the ministry the a man had to be the head of it.

M
MaryJane

How about a ministry outside of a church? Does a man have to be the leader of the ministry even if the ministry is for the families of those left behind by drug and alcohol addiction? Which in the most part directly deals with women and children. I recently left the church I have been attending over this issue. The Pastor insisted on no matter what the ministry the a man had to be the head of it.

________________

After reading Brother toms post that comes after this I decided to take down what I had written. A very good response to this question is given by brother Tom, I encourage all to read his post.

God Bless
maryjane

G
ginnyrose

ginnyrose I will not be repeating things I have already said. I would just like to request that my salvation is not repeatedly questioned.

Brenda, I never did question your salvation. If, however, you felt the Holy Spirit convicting you of such in reading mine or anyone else's post you would do well to mind the Spirit of the LORD.

ginnyrose

S
sermonindex


On the issue of ministry, and specifically women in it, I see it a little differently than most. When we use the WORD; ministry, we seem to always associate it with leadership and authority; with running a meeting.


A lot of these issues derive from the doctrines that the Church IS a meeting. The church has meetings, but the Church is not the "meeting"; the church is the local community. The church are the called out ones, that attend a meeting.

The second doctrine in fallacy is that the church is ran by men. It is not. The functions of the Church are directed by the holy spirit [ in every day life, and IN meetings ] We don't "come" to church. We are the church, and the church is Not male dominated. It[should be] is Jesus dominated, including males too.

The following idea then erupts. The doctrine of THE PASTOR[ and of course his sub-staff]. The clergy/laity heresy we've endured, as a church all of these ages. The most spiritual above, the lessor, learners below to receive.

This idea has destroyed the church; mangled and divided her into a PRIEST class over the children; and we have received that this IS what MINISTRY IS. This is a colossal lie. The MINISTRY is the ACTS of the Holy Spirit, as defined in Isaiah 61. Jesus spoke this on the day that He began His ministry. The Anointing of the Holy spirit is the ministry, and simply put, true ministry is the ministry of LIFE, derived from God Himself, and it is neither male, nor female. There is no male or female in Christ; but a nation of Priests and Kings; [ Queens too, if you will]. Women are as much a part of that holy Priesthood as men are. It is ; THE PRIESTHOOD OF THE BELIEVER!
Isaiah 61:1-4

“The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon Me,
Because the LORD has anointed Me
To preach good tidings to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives,
And the opening of the prison to those who are bound;
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,
And the day of vengeance of our God;
To comfort all who mourn,
3 To console those who mourn in Zion,
To give them beauty for ashes,
The oil of joy for mourning,
The garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness;
That they may be called trees of righteousness,
The planting of the LORD, that He may be glorified.”
4 And they shall rebuild the old ruins,
They shall raise up the former desolations,
And they shall repair the ruined cities,
The desolations of many generations."


Everything in these verses is the THEY....the trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, the re builders....the resurrectors of the ruins, the repairers, the healers. neither male, nor female, for it is the anointing; THE MINISTRY OF THE HOLY SPIRIT TO THE WORLD!


The problem we face is the issue of authority. The OVERSEERS, the SHEPHERDS of this church must be male, due to a variety of weaknesses inherit in the female sex. This is abundantly clear in sound and ancient doctrine, but it IS NOT a place of superiority. It is a place of SERVANTHOOD, not benefaction.
Matthew 20:26-28

"You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and those who are great exercise authority over them.

26. Yet it shall not be so among you; but whoever desires to become great among you, let him be your servant.

27. And whoever desires to be first among you, let him be your slave—

28. just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”


We see the ministry as exactly the thing Jesus commanded us to beware of. The benefactors; the Priesthood rulers of his holy church. IT IS NOT. true ministry is neither male nor female.....except in the realms of teaching, instruction over men, and exercising authority within the boundary's of the church. This is reserved , as I have said, for men only.

S
sermonindex

What is the Shepherd?....THE PASTOR?

Firstly the only recorded instance of the PASTOR, singular, was confronted by the apostle as heresy; a usurping error.
3john1:9-11

9. "I wrote to the church, but Diotrephes, who loves to have the preeminence among them, does not receive us.

10. Therefore, if I come, I will call to mind his deeds which he does, prating against us with malicious words. And not content with that, he himself does not receive the brethren, and forbids those who wish to, putting them out of the church.

11 Beloved, do not imitate what is evil, but what is good. He who does good is of God, but he who does evil has not seen God."

John describes himself here as:

"The Elder", as he could have well been the last remaining living Apostle shepherd.

Pastor:Always; always plural....
Acts 14:22

[ the apostles..] "strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.”

23. "So when they had appointed elders in every church, and prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord in whom they had believed."...plural

Titus 1:4-6
5. For this reason I left you in Crete, that you should set in order the things that are lacking, and appoint elders in every city as I commanded you—

ELDERS; PLURAL, AND MEN...

6 if a man is blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of dissipation or insubordination.

WHAT DOES AN ELDER DO?

As I see it THEY assure that the Holy Spirit is not quenched and strives to feed the body with sound doctrine and the revelation of Christ in them.

They are to protect the body.
1Peter5:1-2


.. a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that will be revealed:
Shepherd the flock of God which is among you, serving as overseers, not by compulsion but willingly.

1 Peter 5
{To Elders and Young Men}

1. "To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder, a witness of Christ's sufferings and one who also will share in the glory to be revealed:

2."Be shepherds of God's flock that is under your care, serving as overseers—not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not greedy for money, but eager to serve;

3. not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock.

4.And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away."

The ministry is the ministry of the Holy Spirit, which is neither male nor female. The Oversight of the church is MALE; and that is abundantly clear. It is not superior, but underneath as servants.

Any sister can function in all of Isaiah 61. Any sister can be as close to Jesus, and be used by Him as much as any male that ever lived; however without functioning as an elder...a shepherd; a pastor...[along with equal and submitted plurality of other elders. ;Unpaid, Unhired, unprofessional servants, filled with humility and power, adorned with God, serving from the bottom up, to grace the body, male and female with the fullness of Christ.
Ephesians 4:7-16

7 " to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift.
8 Therefore He says:

“ When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”

9 (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first[c] descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)

11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,

12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,

13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;

14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,

15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ—

16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.


This five fold ministry by it's nature to function under the auspices of the authority of Christ, and His equipping aspect must also fall under the shepherd banner; men establishing churches and doctrine. IE, these are the men who establish the elders. These are not functions that women may participate in, for then they must by the nature of it; rule and teach men. This is forbidden by women as we have discussed, because of inherit weakness.


Everything else; ALL of Isaiah 61 is on the table, for the anointing, the moving and acts of the Holy spirit is neither male nor female.

S
sermonindex

What ministry women can do....

Isaiah 61
The Good News of Salvation
1 “The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon Me,
Because the LORD has anointed Me
To preach good tidings to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives,
And the opening of the prison to those who are bound;
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,
And the day of vengeance of our God;
To comfort all who mourn,
3 To console those who mourn in Zion,
To give them beauty for ashes,
The oil of joy for mourning,
The garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness;
That they may be called trees of righteousness,
The planting of the LORD, that He may be glorified.”
4 And they shall rebuild the old ruins,
They shall raise up the former desolations,
And they shall repair the ruined cities,
The desolations of many generations.


1.] "Preach good tidings to the poor."...... Minister to the poor and tell them about Jesus.
2.]"Heal the brokenhearted"...minister the comfort of the Holy Spirit through His love and graces.
3.]to PROCLAIM that we must repent today, and that Jesus is returning. This is a matter of expressing your faith and loving the lost; IE; our testimony. women, if believers, overcome this way, as men do.
4.] "Proclaim liberty and opening the gates to release the prisoners to sin and death." Again, it is a natural emission of faith, neither male, nor female.

5.] "Console those who mourn and give them beauty for ashes, the oil of god to joy in Him; by faith, and exhibit worship; Praising Jesus, for He dwells in the praises of His people, not just the men.

5.]THEY, THEY, they are the called, the planters and the rebuilders. This is the Priesthood of the believer, the body; a NATION of Priests. Our sisters need to be delivered from male domination of a controlling spirit ; in this Brenda is right, and perhaps it is the root of her tenor in this entire discussion.


Ephesians 4 (New King James Version)

Ephesians 4:1-6
Walk in Unity

1. "I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called,

2. with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love,

3. endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

4. There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling;

5. one Lord, one faith, one baptism;

6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
How can you say any more?
and.....


1Peter2:8-10
9."But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

10. "Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy."


A generation, a Priesthood, a Nation, a People...

Not just one of the sexes...equal with equal ministries, but clearly different functions. Women should, and honestly must walk in power with all of the gifts of the Holy Spirit; every one of them listed, with the heart of Jesus leading. However, they must not attempt to teach men, or to rule over them as shepherds. This is their lot, and it is as glorious as it is for men, and liberating.

Our men are just co-heirs also.

S
sermonindex


Brothertom, I really appreciate your dividing of the word. I don't have a problem being taught by men who are submitted to Christ. (I'll skip the matter of marriage to a man who is unsubmitted to Christ.)

However, there is no doubt - for instance when listening to a single lady missionary like Helen Rosevere - that GOD has called some women 'to teach'. Having said that, I'm sure she loves to sit under sound ministry from any brother.

I believe a survey of 'the church' in a previous generation, noted that two thirds of missionaries are women, and at least some of those remained unmarried because a man would not obey God's call on his life, or, a man whom God had called first, had refused.

God is not trying to break His own directions, but sometimes, in the furtherance of His absolute intentions, He finds Himself pursuing His destination by another route.

G
ginnyrose

BrotherTom, I appreciate you exposition on the role of women in 'ministry'.

Brother Paul echoed these sentiments in Titus 2:3-5.

Too many times people think that in order to be of any use one must be in formal leadership positions. This is so far from the truth that it comes out as a flat out lie. The enemy has truly deceived one into believing that unless you are great, get a lot of public attention you are not doing anyrthing worthwhile! Sounds like pride that hankers to be fed.

Personally, I find it so fulfilling when I get into spiritual discussions with people on an informal level. This happens quite frequently at our store. It can include males or females, it matters little. When these conversations occur I experience such a wonderful, unspeakable joy....

(BTW, I deeply appreciate the ministry of exposition which teaches me a lot about the Scriptures, how it is to be interpreted and regarded. And the ones who take the leadership in this ministry is males. So, men, you have to be faithful and careful in how you handle the Word because there are women who ARE listening - even if you are not aware of it- and learning and using what you say! and if you misinterpret the WORD God will hold you accountable, as well! Grave responsibility...)

Blessings,
ginnyrose

S
sermonindex

I heard an old preacher once commented on;

"Suffer not a woman to teach",

saying, "a woman is not to introduce new teaching in the church but she can repeat what is already been said. She is not to establish her own interpretation but to consult with other men."

All it takes is a few weak men who give in to the notions that "Well, it could be interpreted that way, yes". That is the devils interpretation to Eve, "this is what God really meant".

Instead of heeding to the established commandment, the woman went above and beyond her natural calling.

Most women know their place. They just hate being reminded of it, and who wouldn't. And most men have lost their place and won't admit they have.

But there is a beautiful place for women to walk in. But alot of women have ventured into the arena where they ought not to be. And men are walking in the place of women where they ought not to be. It's really a messy situation. We need a Reformation, a Revival and Restoration.

S
sermonindex

that was a most excellent post....to which i say "amen".

and i never before recognized, or apprehended what John Zebedee meant in his Epistle, 3 John about Diotrephes, "who likes to put himself first" and how that relates to the "pastorate", or "pastor".

You opened my eyes on that one, i'm not saying i want to "break glass" in a modern church setting, but it sure did open my eyes.

Thank you brother and God bless you for rightly dividing the Word, in Jesus' love, neil

S
sermonindex

I must confess Brother Tom that that exposition of being a Pastor or biblically correct, an Elder was excellent. That was a refreshing read that even the holy women that peruse this website would agree.

I will adopt that thinking.

Well done Brother

Proverbs 27:2

M
MaryJane

I agree this is a really great post by Tom.I am printing it out to go over later!

God Bless
maryjane

J
jerryaustin1

Notice Paul say "I" suffer not a woman to teach. Does that not sound like what he was saying in 1 Corinthian 7:12 " But to the rest speak "I" not the Lord..." and in verse 25 he says " Now concerning virgins I have no commandment of the Lord: yet I give my judgment..." I believe paul may not have been giving a commandment concerning women and teaching but maybe a suggestion or his preference.

S
sermonindex

I though that this dovetailing with the "Women of Fire" thread by Austin..[sermonindex] would be worth considering. We are one body, and their are no underclass Christians. If we possess the Holy spirit, cannot He manifest His life and power in sisters as well as brothers?

This discussion is archived and closed to new replies. Start a new discussion to carry the subject on.
Archived
1 of 138 posts

Everything we make is available for free because of a generous community of supporters.

Donate