i am grieved beyond words at what we have become.

What can one say?

After reading this, I thought it looked like it has the potential to become one of 'those threads'.

But, God forbid.

God bless.

"are we one?"

I believe that those that are apart of the Bride of Christ are one. The Bridegroom is searching for earnest hearts after Him and this Transcends divisions, doctrines, theory, theology, and denomination. Those that chose to bicker must examine themselves and test themselves did Jesus promote senseless quarrels? I believe it was the Pharisees that wanted to debate with Jesus while Jesus came to defeat another foe. I understand your grief and I look at the churches of today and ask Is this really what Jesus meant? If we started just with the scriptures would we get our modern Christianity? I sadly have to say no we wouldn't. I think you are right though and we have to ask yet another question Did Jesus really mean what He said? and Do we know what He is saying? Let us pray and interceed rather than accuse(such as the accuser of the brethen)

God Bless,
Matthew

I have been on SI form since is began. There have been so many "discussions". The principle to keep is love towards our brothers and sisters in Christ on this forum. While I may not agree, I want to have a love for my family. We will be spending a long time with each other in eternity.

God's word said that the world will know Him by our love for one another. Trying to win an argument and forgetting how to love one another is dangerous. So many sinners that watch the body of Christ will end up in hell because of our "discussion" and arguments over doctrine.

Is there to be a distinction between any part of the bible and another. Are we to value the words in red as holding a higher value than those in black. We have to consider the Unity of the Word.

The same mouth that spoke the Words in read is the same mouth that spoke through those who wrote the words in black. To give a higher value to the words spoken by Jesus during His earthly tenure than those spoken by Him in His ascended position is to do serious harm to the Faith itself.

2 Peter 3:15-18 (KJV)
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

I think this sums it up with these debates, people arguing over things they don't even understand. I desire to grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus.

You know the saddest thing is,not many here will "ever" change their views on anything they personally believe there interpretation of the Word is. I have always heard only God can change people, including there interpretation of his Word, so my question is, why all the fuss to the point to were threads have to be closed down period? We as Christians should know better, should we not at some point on these threads just let go and let God? Just my two cents.

Neil, I too have seen a very cold spirit of posting here recently, but over the years these things come in waves, and I'm sure will warm up once again. I think there are many that need to check and recheck before posting. And I also agree that many lately use the scriptures as "ammunition" instead of for edifying the body.

I will caution you, however, regarding "red letters". Every word of Christ in my bible is black. He said ALL of it. The red letters in your version are a hindrance. It draws attention to "Jesus' words" as opposed to the rest of Jesus' words, and the red letters are not quotes. They are translators' addition/edition. They have altered the text for who knows why. We only have one definitive quotation of Jesus. "eloi eloi lama sabbachtani?" The rest are recounts of what he said, but not quotes. Matthew, Luke, John, etc. did not use a red pen, nor did they have a way of "quoting". What do you do when the red letters in Matthew are different than the ones in Luke? Is one of them "misremembering?" Surely not. God had purposes for giving slightly different angles to each account. This would not be possible with quotations, but completely logical and acceptable with "narrative accounts". It would be wooden, or errant with quotations.

And, Paul did have a "canon"...the Old Testament.

Neil: I love your heart brother. I am not so sure it is what we have become, rather what we have not yet become that is the problem. Every one of us live in a fleshly body and are in the process of renewing our soulish realm by the power of the Holy Spirit and the Word of God. Romans 12:1-2. Every one of us battles the flesh in one way or another. All of us who are born again are like Christ in our spirit, but none of us are like Christ in the sense that our soul and body have been glorified. God has to work out of each one of us the parts of us that do not please Him and that interfere with His desire to use us for His glory. This caused problems in the early church just as it does in the modern church. Remember the contention over John Mark that caused Paul not to take him along. Later Luke records that Paul sent for him and said that he had become useful (useable). The point is that it is tempting to allow our flesh to get in the way.

It is this same flesh that causes the problems in doctrinal discussions or disputes. We all have such a tendency to hold onto and defend what we see as the truth or the correct interpretation. In reality, these doctrinal stands are often more the result of past teaching that we have particularly liked or past experiences that have shaped the way we see things more than they are the result of lengthy, careful, and prayerful study of scripture and time in prayer over the issue.

We absolutely must come to a place where we hold man's interpretation of scripture loosely (including our own) while realizing that scripture is the written word of God and that God did not intend His word to mean different things to different men. To put it another way, if you and I disagree on scripture, you or I or both must be wrong in our interpretation. Assuming the latter is the most likely is probably the safest bet. State your opinion in love, and be willing to have your mind changed as you submit to the Lord and to His word. I believe in doing this in an attitude of prayer and humility we will come to a place where we begin to see the truth of scripture as it is, outside of denominational or personal bias, and we can submit to that word and it will be fruitful in our lives.

I have prayed, "Lord, am I wrong on this interpretation?" and had the Lord show me from the word that I was not. I have prayed the same thing and had the Lord show me that I was wrong and had to change my mind. I have many many areas where I simply do not know yet, and I must recognize and admit that as well.

May we all be in pursuit of Him and of knowing Him and His word, not academically, but throug the perspective of the anointing of the Holy Spirit.

Blessings

Travis

The standard that we are to live by is the Lord's own speaking. Whether that be His booming voice speaking from Heaven declaring 'this is my Beloved Son' or His voice speaking to the people of His day or if it be His voice being expressed by His body.

We as His body are not to make a distinction from those instances because they are all Gods own speaking. One may be more sensational than another, yet sensationalism is not the basis upon which we establish a level of authority. The Word spoken through the physical lips of Jesus was no less the Word of God as THe Father voice from Heaven. The thundering voice from Heaven would certain command more respect from those standing around. Also the Word of God spoken through the Apostles of old are no less the Word of God as the Words spoken through the lips of Jesus.

We dare not hold to the words in red with some sort of special devotion while ascribing to His voice when expessed through a broken human vessel as not as powerful or authoritative. The opening of that kind of door will swing wide the door or misintepretation and the devaluing of the Word of God.

The Gospels are there to record the story of the earthy tenure of Christ in the light of the prophetic scriptures. Jesus mentioned to the Apostles he had things to share with them that they could not bear at the time. All of the books after the Gospels are to be considered the Word of Christ and there function is more along the lines of doctrine. That is the Lords intention for them.
We make doctrinal or ecclesiastical points more from the epistles than the Gosples because the Gosples purpose is not to give detailed information on the Church and its being. That is the purpose of the other books.

There is a reason why Jesus never spoke on how the CHurch should function or how Faith relates to Salvation. This would be reserved for Him to express through His Body which is the same as it being expressed through His physical mouth. No distinction whatsoever. Hope that helps you.

Travis or twayneb said:
God did not intend His word to mean different things to different men. To put it another way, if you and I disagree on scripture, you or I or both must be wrong in our interpretation.

Mr. Bill say's:
Travis,I do personally believe that the Word can Minister to two different people, differently. Jesus said it is the Spirit of truth that teaches us all things.

I may be taking this off course and forgive me if I do. I've wanted to post a new thread with the following thoughts, but decided to post here instead.

Jesus simply said, "Follow me". While I may disagree with Neil on some details I think he is spot on in spirit. We (the Church) have make this thing so difficult. Jesus just said "Follow Me". He didn't say learn Greek, or Hebrew. I think we are being led to make the Church simple again. We get so caught up in who is right and who is wrong. Beloved, just follow Jesus.

My dad and I had a "nice" talk about Christians in the military and politics. I told him of my non-resistance stance and he asked about my pistols. For me to follow Jesus I have to sell at least one, and the other will be put up and unloaded only to be used for recreation. I have to follow Jesus as He leads me. We sometimes need to realize that we didn't get where we are by being so good at holiness. We got here by following Jesus, by locking eyes with Him so that the journey seemed effortless. Not everyone is at the same place spiritually. Sometimes we need to be kicked, but most times God will handle that. Our job is to proclaim the Good News, not force people to believe it. We don't always know how God is dealing with a person.

I've listened to Ten Shekels and a Shirt a few times now. It has stuck in my spirit and at times I've regretted listening to it. God really opened my eyes to a lot that shouldn't be going on in the church. But I thing that a lot of times we take the idea of humanism and a self-centered Christianity a little too far. We take the sheer joy that Jesus has provided us and make it a stumbling block. 1 Corinthians 9:22 says "To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some."

Sorry Neil, but it supports your point. Paul put on Christ. That is he became as much like Him as he could. That means that Jesus is all things to all people. If you're of a fiery disposition, He cleansed the temple. If you are by nature a little distrusting of the establishment, He challenged the Pharisees. If you're compassionate, He healed the sick simply because He had compassion on them. If you're merciful, He used Peter who was both violent and weak willed. If you're physically strong, He carried His cross up the hill. If you're sensitive, Jesus wept. If you're forceful, He preached, "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites". If you're easy going, He slept in the bottom of a boat during a storm. If you're giving, He gave His very life. Even if you're selfish, He did it all for you.

It's when we stop here and when we forget about these things that we get in trouble. It was all done for us. We just can't stop there or it's empty word of faith/prosperity destruction. Nor can we go too far past it or else it's Pharisaical law and therefore death. In the beginning was the Word. It is all profitable, but not when we use it to back up out pride and self assurance. Follow Jesus, follow Jesus, follow Jesus.

I don't know beloved, God is doing something. The tone of so many threads just gets ugly so quickly lately, and yet so many are pleading the same things. Just like this one and a few others and the one I started to post. We must be still and wait on God before we speak. We must let go and cling to Jesus. The world is watching. John 17:17-21 17"Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth. 18"As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19"For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth. 20"I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

Acts 1:14 These all with ONE mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.

This is the only way we can do what Jesus has asked us. We must be one in order to follow Him and we must be one in order to make disciples. Yes, you've heard it before. But please, just follow Jesus and see where He takes you. Turn off the world and see what Jesus says to you.

Because of Christ, Matt

Dear brethren,

If I may, I'd like to share a few thoughts.

Those of us who have been around these forums long enough should be noticing a pattern of seasons. Seasons of heated debate; seasons of rest and cordial affections. Seasons where a preponderance of threads are decidedly worldly and shallow; and seasons of great profundity and blessing within the majority of the threads.

We need to understand that these seasons are inexorable and assured and put here for our spiritual training, for our persevearance in rightouesness, and for our exercising of self-denial. We can no more prevent these seasons from coming as we can prevent a hurricane from forming at sea, but the wise and mature Christian takes necessary precautions to comprehend how he ought to act when he finds himself "in the midst" of a particular season.

When you log onto SermonIndex and see a plethora of shallow-topic threads and current event fear-mongering and divisive discussions, we need to immediately recognize what is happening and decide for ourselves if the Lord would have us, as individuals, contribute. For those of us who enjoy deeper discussions of real spiritual meat, a season such as this is often the method God uses to wean some of us from public freethought to get us alone with Him in the quiet, secret place of reality. He will purposefully dry up the forum and allow immature activity to ultimately "work together for good" in those He has called to meet on higher ground.

Approach these forums with care therefore during respective seasons. Be sensitive to the voice of God; if you see a divisive topic or one that you know will bring your thoughts down to carnal, disputatious level, consider forgoing participation and instead preserve your strength and joy in Christ for a more edifying cause and occasion.

If we can learn these principles of self-restraint and divine prudence, the Lord will give us the grace to act upon them and abide in the light. But if we stoop to peer presure and instead gormandize the spoiled milk, we will miss the true meat and consequently not grow as we ought. We will repeat the same season over, and over and over again until we master the lesson.

Brother Paul

Good word brother Paul...

"are we one"

My experience is it is an easy thing to be one with those we agree with, its harder to be one with those we disagree with. Some may say how can we be one if we disagree? well i think it is a process, brother Art Katz shares in some recordings of their community life together, how through very hard trials and problems as of living together, how their own self and own wills where brought down to become one. But before that they where ready to throw in the towel, give up.

Not saying a forum on the net is the same thing, but there is some thing with being one that will not come easy, i am not just saying let us "agree to disagree" , that also is not one. But even tho we disagree we stick with it, in love and patience and forbearance and always remember from under what rock God pulled me out from, and to speak with brothers, try let God forge us to one in Him.

I just know it is a painful process, but if we allow it we will become one.

Want to share a short word that blessed me, I hope it will you all, to remember what is the most important thing.

----

Our minds are so often occupied with service and work; we think that doing things for the Lord is the chief object of life. We are concerned about our lifework, our ministry. We think of equipment for it in terms of study and knowledge of things. Soul-winning, or teaching believers, or setting people to work, are so much in the foreground. Bible study and knowledge of the Scriptures, with efficiency in the matter of leading in Christian service as the end in view, are matters of pressing importance with all. All well and good, for these are important matters; but, back of everything the Lord is more concerned about our knowing Him than about anything else. It is very possible to have a wonderful grasp of the Scriptures, a comprehensive and intimate familiarity with doctrine; to stand for cardinal verities of the faith; to be an unceasing worker in Christian service; to have a great devotion to the salvation of men, and yet, alas, to have a very inadequate and limited personal knowledge of God within. So often the Lord has to take away our work that we may discover Him. The ultimate value of everything is not the information which we give, not the soundness of our doctrine, not the amount of work that we do, not the measure of truth that we possess, but just the fact that we know the Lord in a deep and mighty way.

full article
http://www.austin-sparks.net/english/000415.html

I also want to throw my support toward the tone this thread has maintained.

In the aforementioned IHOP thread I was one of the ones posting with passion. However, my passion was diretly related to one thing....I was defending a brother that I felt, and actually know, was being wrongly accused.

Perhaps the thing to do was simply ignore it and let God do the dealing on all fronts as He sees fit. In retrospect that is probably the better choice.

The thing that really rattles my cage though is seeeing this constant piling on and attacking other ministries as well as attacking brothers and sisters in the Lord. Sometimes these "bashing threads" are relegating solid Christian people down to accusations of them having demonic motives or possession.

If I post passionately it will almost always be to DEFEND a brother or sister. I do not believe I have ever posted on SI in a way the attacks any ministry. In the IHOP thread it seemed to me that if there are 10 pages dedicated to cutting them to shreds then it wasn't such a big deal to take a couple of posts and defend them. In response I was then attacked for defending a brother. Guilt by association in that persons mind I suppose.

I also think I would defend the interests of ANY brother or sister being maliciously attacked....whether I agree with their particular doctrinal slant on a few topics or not. They are Christ's Bride and I want to be seen by the Lord as one that defends them... not throws mud at them.

Thanks for reading my thoughts.... I would much rather post regarding the goodness of any ministry as opposed to knit picking them to death. But if any brother or sister is attacked I also want the Lord to see me as one who defends those in His body..not assaults.

Blessings

The problem lies in i think that scripture lay much weight upon truth, in our actions, our speaking, our motives, but also on doctrine, and more important the church. So as Paul Washer says truth is like balancing on the edge of a razor....

So it is easy when we hae light on something, God has shown us a truth to get zealous and defend, correct others etc. We speak the truth in love, and also "....the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. (1Ti 3:15 KJV)"

if the pillar is not a solid one, without cracks and not thoroughly made and maintained, the building will eventually collapse...

But in our zeal for a specific truth, we often forget another truth. God must always balance us out. This we need to remember. The Lord Jesus defended some people, others he spoke very condemning of and exposed for what they where.

This is a reason we need foremost to be connected to the spirit, an intimate relationship that is constantly guided by him, so we can know when to do and what to speak.

Sometimes by being silent, we may add cracks to the pillar... by not facing what we know to be the truth, other times the Lord may try press upon us to be silent, but we may fail due to we know so MUCH and want so badly to share it with others, but the Lord may not want that specific time to be the time of that kind of dealing, or something else.

beware of extremes, i am cautious of those that every time you meet them, all they can speak of is error, and heresy etc. Nothing else... but the other extreme is those who say i never say anything against untruth...

We are now in times where scripture, and Jesus warns us many times, beware.... so let us be on guard, warn others, correct those who are deceived. But my experience so far on my sojourn has been, there is different types of spirit in doing this, one is true and honestly caring, another of fleshly "i am right" attitude, i think we all struggle against such attitudes and spirits, but let us first se to it we are in the place where God wants us before we correct
others.

Its always so easy to speak out against others faults, but when mine is pointed out, how it stings....

May Gods grace be upon all to speak the truth in true LOVE.

Hi Brother,

Not exactly sure of what your getting at with your post. You sound troubled, grieved as though your tearing your garments and putting ashes on your head. I hope that everything is really ok and we'll be praying for you.

I've been on SI for a while now and yeah there's lot's wrong with it, because there's lots wrong with us. However, for the most part, I have found people to be kind, genuine and honestly seeking to be obedient to the doctrines of the Christian faith and honestly seeking to reform a much troubled self-centered church culture. I thank SI for that and it's many posters. I know I have grown and have been encouraged and most of all I've been taught humility through my participation with these brothers and sisters on SI.

That being said as just an intro...no need really to comment on the above stuff.

I do have just a couple of sample questions for you though: Scripturally, where would you personally guide a fellow brother or sister who has questions like:

1.) Is it right to eat food offered to idols? (a young missionary may ask this question)

2.) What are the proper ways to select leaders of the Christian Church?

3.) How should (does) the Holy Spirit manifest itself biblically in a Christian and how are His gifts to be properly used in corporate meetings?

4.) What should we do if we need to correct an elder of the church?

5.) Can you describe to me what the Judgment Day is like and how will it unfold, specifically in the heavenlies?

6.) What's the Baptism of the Holy Spirit?

7.) Are the Jews and the Gentiles the same in God's eyes?

8.) How should I behave if I am born again?

9.) How should I treat my wife and family?

10.) How should we live and congregate together as a local assembly?

11.) Is it biblical to pay tithes?

12.) What's grace?

13.) What's faith?

14.) What does it mean that we were foreordained to "good works"?

These are just a few questions that have been asked on SI and Christian churches all over the world for many, many centuries. Where would you take young Christians, and where would you go to seek the answers for these questions? Is one book or verse or chapter "more right" than another?

Here's to hoping you perk-up! The Lord loves a cheerful giver! Ha ha ha.

Here are some words to chew on:

John 16:33 - These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Hebrews 12:12 - Therefore lift your drooping hands and strengthen your weak knees,

1 Peter 1:13 - Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

Like my dad used to tell me. "If you want I can give you something to really cry about":

-Look at all the unreached people groups of our world.
-Look at the complacency of the "churched" community
-Look at the lack of giving to indigent Christian pastors
-Look at the wickedness of your own heart and the undeserved beauty of grace extended to such a hell-bound sinner

Just because the members of SI enjoy some healthy sparring as they sharpen their faith in hopes that God will use them more for His Glory in reaching lost souls and strengthening found ones is really no reason to be "grieved beyond words".

Think of all the souls found in the description of our past brothers and sisters in Hebrews 11. Men and women are still suffering this type of persecution today. That's some real "grief" for the gospel.

Blessings,
Desi

Personally i think the "red letters" are quite powerful i was personally led by the spirit from error into truth by these "red letters".

John 8:31-32
" 31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.""

it is abundantly clear that Jesus has the words of eternal life. But it is also clear from scripture that the disciples would be limited in there understanding of Gods words until receiving the baptisms of the Holy Ghost.

John 16:12-14
12 "I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you.

If paul was led indeed by the Holy Spirit then essentially the words come from Christ himself as the Holy Spirit speaks not of himself. So even though pauls words are not in red letters if they are inspired of the Holy Spirit they should be viewed as "Red Letters" in our hearts.

The scriptures also refer to the word of God as being "milk" and "strong meat" what we are able to digest is determined by us being yielded to the Spirit of God and growing in spiritual maturity and understanding. If we take out the Holy Spirit from our studying of the scriptures we may be in danger of acquiring vast information and little truth and as a result we may become puffed up.

Remember also

1 Corinthians 4:19-20

1But I will come to you very soon, if the Lord is willing, and then I will find out not only how these arrogant people are talking, but what power they have. 20 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of power.

Romans 1:16
16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.

May the Holy Spirit teach us all truth