Does anyone know of a solid biblical response to MacArthur's sermons on tongues and spiritual gifts?

My dear brothers and sisters,

I am trying to study the topic of tongues and spiritual gifts in order to prayerfully come to a conclusion about this topic. I am praying about whether I should continue to fellowship and serve at my current church and this is a major factor in that decision.

I recently listened to 13 sermons by John MacArthur on the topic of tongues, spiritual gifts, and baptism of the Holy Spirit. His study through 1Co. 12-14 was extremely systematic and comprehensive. I feel I understand much better the view of cessationism.

Now I would like to listen to an equally systematic study on these topics from a sound teacher who holds a non-cessationist view. Can anyone recommend sermons on this topic? I am looking for something that is in audio format that I can listen to throughout the day. (My time for reading is often limited.)

Thank you so much for your help. I truly appreciate it!

Nathan

Something that I found helpful was to remember that Corinthians is a letter and that you read a letter from beginning to end, not just lift out a part of the middle. In 1 Corinthians 1:7-9 Paul states that the Corinthian church will be lacking in no gift until the second coming. Having that piece of information at the start of the letter allows you to filter the middle part of the letter through that grid rather than some other more forced line of thought that is not implicitely stated in the text.

Having listened to John M. preach for years I was shocked to hear his message yesterday concerning Paul's thorn in the flesh being demon possessed teachers in Corinth. As if God sends demon possessed men to churches to express His sovereignty. The madness has runamuck and someone needs to say something.

Consider these passages:

So, my brothers, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. But all things should be done decently and in order. (1 Corinthians 14:39 ESV)

Do not quench the Spirit. Do not despise prophecies, but test everything; hold fast what is good. Abstain from every form of evil. (I Thessalonians 5:19-22 ESV)

Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy. (1 Corinthians 14:1 ESV)

When God quit speaking to Israel we called it the 400 years of silence and assume it is the hand of God in judgment for Israel's ongoing rebellion. When God quits speaking in the churches we say it's because the canon is completed. When the Jews got ready to expel God from their religion the took the sacred book and legislated, "It is not in Heaven." That is to say that God no longer speaks prophetically, but has given the Rabbi's the authority to interpret everything. A very convenient way to take control.

Now we know for a fact that the New Testament churches expected Christ to be be speaking to His churches. In fact, In Revelation 2-3 we are told no less than seven times to, "Hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches." But thanks to the Dispensationalists, these passages have no historical meaning, but are really eras within the church. But understand that this is an example of Christ moving and speaking to HIS churches. He has not abandoned them to men no matter whose the men are that say that He has. Shall we believe Christ or men?

The church at Corinth expected that God would be moving among them in their meetings. Paul states in Acts 20:23:

Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me.

Notice what he says here; "In EVERY city..." the Holy Spirit is speaking. This is God bringing vital revelation to His people about their present state. God is making Himself known. Today men are looking for a strategy. Men are sifting through the cold charred embers of men who once heard from God and quoting their words. Dead men are speaking when we need to hear from the Living God. It looks sickeningly like what the Rabbi's do in quoting their sages all the time. I'm not against good quotes, but is there a Word from the Lord?

Yet some say God does not speak today. He only moves in the realm of providence. If that were true how can we say that the New Covenant is a better covenant? Under the Old Covenant God spoke and in the Book of Acts God spoke, but now He has left us to ourselves- to be guided by hermeneutical principals? I'm all for good exegesis. But this is NOT the same as God speaking.

Faith cannot come until God speaks. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. This is God quickening revelation to our hearts. If we respond rightly it is faith- if not it is sin. There are no broadband one-size fits all answer to peoples problems or church problems. God sends His word to present situations as an act of grace. He wants the people and the churches to be built up. Just as in Revelation 2-3 each church had a tailor fit message. Who wold give the medicine for a dying patient to a healthy one? This is why it is important to be sensitive to God and be being directed of God in a real conscious sense. A person can't even rightly be a Christian unless they are "always doing what they see their Father doing." Can a person do that in their own strength? Can we get there by hermeneutics alone?

Building up of the Saints is only possible by grace through faith and faith is dependent on revelation (faith cometh by hearing...). To misunderstand this one fact is to totally misunderstand the New Covenant. God desires to take up residence IN men. He wants to be the King on the throne of their heart in a real sense. This requires a real sense in which men are walking with God in obedience; not just to the covenant- but to the VOICE of God.

Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: (Exodus 19:5)

Two things here:

1. OBEY My voice
2. KEEP My covenant

When Joshua goes to Jerico he is 'obeying the voice' of the LORD. This is not a covenant commandment, it was a real time specific direction from God. So long as the people OBEYED the voice and kept the covenant the enemy could not stand before them. But we are told today that God no speak. God speak superfluous. Oh really? Did Paul obey God speak? Did Peter obey God speak? We have the covenant just like Joshua did when he went into the promised land. But what does that have to do with God speaking? Could he pull the scroll out in order to know if he should go up to fight here or there? No. He 'sought the Lord.' Not a bible verse, per se (though I am utterly for Bible study, exegesis, etc.). God has spoken to us through His Son and continues to speak to us through His Son by the Spirit. It is HIS church and we need to be hearing from the Head and not just doing what is right in our own eyes.

Notice who the Corinthians letter is addressed to:

Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: (I Corinthians 1:2)

This letter is not just addressed to Corinth, but there is a sense in which as Paul is being carried along by the Spirit that God is speaking to all that have genuinely been born of the Spirit. By this I mean the Holy Spirit has taken up residence in the person in a real sense. This is not a process of proof texts and logical deductions. It is a genuine verifiable experience.

God knew that only a relative hand-full of people would read this letter in the beginning. Millions of times more people have now read the passages of the Corinthians letters. There is no way that God is going to give instruction on New Testament things at that level and then make the mute for future generations.

A common argument is that the Canon is closed and once it closed there was no longer a need for God-speak. This argument is flawed on multiple levels. The passage used to propagate this argument is:

But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. (I Corinthians 13:10)

The context affirms that the issue is not prophesy vs. the canon (which is an imposition on the text besides), but is prophesy in relation to love.

Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. (I Corinthians 13:8)

The word here for knowledge is gnosis (γνῶσις). The word for 'cease' is found four times in the OT in the book of Ezra (LXX). 'Done away' and 'vanish away' are translations of the same Greek word καταργηθήσονται. So the question becomes, what is the 'in part' things that are done away with?

For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. (I Corinthians 13:9)

Two things here:

1. knowledge
2. prophesy

To be consistent when the 'perfect' is come knowledge will be done away first and then prophesy. This word γινώσκομεν is first used in the LXX in Genesis 2:17 and is translated knowledge as in the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. So we have an elementary question; "has knowledge been done away with?" If not then neither has prophesy because they are both in the context as being the 'in part' that is to be done away with.

ὅταν δὲ ἔλθῃ τὸ τέλειον, τότε τὸ ἐκ μέρους καταργηθήσεται.

But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

The scriptures serve as the basis on which we understand God. It will not always be this way.

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

We will know 'face to face' and what we experience now will be superseded. We will not need knowledge and prophesy in the sense we do today; apparently we will be moving in that face-to-face relationship that cannot be compared to our present experience. We have a foretaste of it now- even the earnest of our inheritance. But the one thing that will never pass away is Charity (love).

Hi Robert,

Thanks for this very good explanation and clear thinking on how we should understand the gifts and how we need to hear God speak to us and His church in general. What God speaks to us by His Spirit will always agree with the written canon of scripture, otherwise it is not God.

I respect and have receieved a lot of otherwise good teaching from cessationist people such as John MacArthur and just chose to ignor their cessationist views and accept they just see it differently. I suppose a lot of us who hold to a biblical position of the gifts and reject the extreme charismatic and pentecostal abuse of the gifts often find more in common with the cessationists! However I think the cessationist position is just as serious an error as the crazy charasmatics who put the name of God to all sorts of un-biblical behaviour and teaching.

We have been reading (at home) Exodus and it struck me the other day how precise God was about the exact building of the tabaernacle (every detail defined). I think the tabernacle represents in type the building of the church. God is just as concerned that we build his church exactly as he dictates as he was with the tabernacle. The pattern for the church is found in the New Testament scriptures and includes the letters to the Corinthians. If folk think that we should now build to a different pattern to that which was clearly laid down and seen in the apostolic church, then there might be some serious explaining to do when they meet the head of the church as to why they set their own pattern and not followed that which was given! This pattern clearly involves the operation of the gifts to build up the body (church) and the hearing what the Spirit says to His church.

RobertW's explanation was excellent!

I don't know if this is what you are looking for so I'm just adding some sermon series that have blessed me (edited) I am a continuationist! (unedited)

If you are interested in any of the following, here are links to Zac Poonen's sermon's on the The Holy Spirit. Personally, I believe that Zac's sermons are very Biblical but that could be because I see it from the other side, having already received the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

An excellent article by Robert Murray MCheyne
Grieve Not the Holy Spirit
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=457

Zac Poonen

Series - The Holy Spirit
http://www.cfcindia.com/web/mainpages/topical_bible_study.php#HolySpirit

Series - The Power of the Holy Spirit
http://www.cfcindia.com/web/mainpages/topical_bible_study.php#powerOfHolySpirit

Series - New Covenant Privileges
http://www.cfcindia.com/web/mainpages/topical_bible_study.php#HolySpirit

Series - New Covenant Truths
http://www.cfcindia.com/web/mainpages/topical_bible_study.php#New_Covenant_Truths

Series - The Spirit Replaces Law
http://www.cfcindia.com/web/mainpages/topical_bible_study.php#The_Spirit_Replaces_The_Law

Series - The Overcoming Life
http://www.cfcindia.com/web/mainpages/topical_bible_study.php#The_Overcoming_Life

God bless you,

Heydave wrote:
"...it struck me the other day how precise God was about the exact building of the tabernacle (every detail defined). I think the tabernacle represents in type the building of the church. God is just as concerned that we build his church exactly as he dictates as he was with the tabernacle. The pattern for the church is found in the New Testament scriptures and includes the letters to the Corinthians. If folk think that we should now build to a different pattern to that which was clearly laid down and seen in the apostolic church, then there might be some serious explaining to do when they meet the head of the church as to why they set their own pattern and not followed that which was given!"

I came to this exact conclusion after reading the book of Numbers years ago. At first glance it comes across as a boring book. Not so - once you make yourself read it. As I read it I was surprised at the details God gave - he was very exacting. Not much room for any individualization. THEN, then I pondered how this contrasted with the NT era in which individualization is highly regard..."I" is the primary source of authority in matters of faith, doctrine.

ginnyrose

Heydave wrote:
"...it struck me the other day how precise God was about the exact building of the tabernacle (every detail defined). I think the tabernacle represents in type the building of the church. God is just as concerned that we build his church exactly as he dictates as he was with the tabernacle. The pattern for the church is found in the New Testament scriptures and includes the letters to the Corinthians. If folk think that we should now build to a different pattern to that which was clearly laid down and seen in the apostolic church, then there might be some serious explaining to do when they meet the head of the church as to why they set their own pattern and not followed that which was given!"

Given the exactness and breadth of the instructions for the temple and worship in the OT, aren't you more astonished with the lack of pattern and instruction in the NT as to the place and form of worship in the NT church?

Perhaps that might be due to the notion that the NT temple is Christ and His body where the Spirit dwelleth and liveth in. Christ likeness and conformity to Him is the pattern and instruction for the NT church I believe. We are to worship in Spirit and in truth, perhaps not so much in exactness of form. Just a thought.

Whyme wrote:

Perhaps that might be due to the notion that the NT temple is Christ and His body where the Spirit dwelleth and liveth in. Christ likeness and conformity to Him is the pattern and instruction for the NT church I believe. We are to worship in Spirit and in truth, perhaps not so much in exactness of form. Just a thought.

That's really what I was meaning. Not following a form, but those things clearly laid out for NT church. Things like; no priest or head leader; greatest being the servant; each member ministering through the enabling gifts of the Spirit, etc. My point being that if Christ sent the Spirit to His church to empower and equip for service, who are we to say that was only for the 1st century church, but we will do it differently? Just to be controversal - really a 'Pastor' as THE minister of a church is not at all biblical!

Hi Revivalist...

There is a great book entitled THEY SPEAK WITH OTHER TONGUES. It was written by John Sherrill, who was a coauthor of other classic Christian books (like The Cross and the Switchblade with David Wilkerson, The Hiding Place with Corrie ten Boom and God's Smuggler with Brother Andrew).

John Sherrill was a skeptical reporter in regards to "tongues" and began to perform research regarding the topic for several years. Throughout his research, he retained a highly skeptical perspective. He discusses his findings in detail within the pages of his book. He discusses what the Scriptures say about "tongues" -- including those who would argue that the gift "ceased" or ended with the first apostles. He mentions the history of "tongues," the Pentecostal movement and other revivals and gifts/spiritual manifestations.

Ultimately, Sherrill came to a conclusion that is the antithesis of cessationism. He presents a good series of points, not the least that "knowledge" is still here on the Earth (and will actually "increase" in the last days [Daniel 12:4]). Cessationists are quick to argue that "tongues" and "prophecy" will have cease, but "knowledge" (found in the same passage of I Corinthians 13:8) is hardly mentioned during such an argument. Knowledge has not passed away.

I agree that the passage appears to be speaking of "perfection" -- and that perfection (whether Jesus via His return, or our physical translation with His coming) has not arrived yet...because we are still on this side of a "glass darkly." When will perfection come? When we can see "face to face" (I Corinthians 13:12). At that point, there will be no need for any gifts...because we will all be able to see His face.

Regardless, this book is well written from the perspective of a skeptic and it is a very good read. It was recommended by the likes of David Wilkerson, Catherine Marshall, Chuck Smith, George Otis, Loren Cunningham and others. I obtained a copy of this book a while after I came to Christ. As a very cautious (and a "test everything") person, this book really helped me understand the subject. If you are interested, I noticed that you can purchase the book at Amazon for $5.50 (new).

I will be praying for your study and examination of this subject!

I've also been reminded of this passage in the gospels when discussing cessationism. I think it applies as cessationism seems to concern all the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Mark 2:5-11
5And Jesus seeing their faith said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven."
6But some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts,
7"Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?"
8Immediately Jesus, aware in His spirit that they were reasoning that way within themselves, said to them, "Why are you reasoning about these things in your hearts?
9"Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, 'Your sins are forgiven'; or to say, 'Get up, and pick up your pallet and walk'?
10"But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins"--He said to the paralytic,
11"I say to you, get up, pick up your pallet and go home."

No cessationist would deny that salvations occur, but here we see that it is the greater miracle.

Also, I was reading Acts the other day and the first verse jumped out at me and I think it bears repeating here.

Acts 1:1-2
1The first account I composed, Theophilus, about all that Jesus began to do and teach,
2until the day when He was taken up to heaven, after He had by the Holy Spirit given orders to the apostles whom He had chosen.

Now, I'm no Greek scholar, but it would seem that the bible is saying that Jesus hasn't ceased to do things or teach. If it was meant that Jesus would cease to work after being taken up to heaven then why doesn't it read "All that Jesus did and taught, until..."? Please correct me if I'm reading this wrong, but it seems to me that it was written in such a way that we would understand that what we read was only the beginning of what Jesus would do and teach. Edit - To me it reads that Luke wrote only the things Jesus did before His assension, and implies that more was done. Maybe it doesn't apply to the argument.

Matt

Hello Nathan. This link will take you to a teaching on 1 Cor. 14 by Jon Courson, a Bible teacher from the Calvary Chapel denomination. What I appreciate about Calvary Chapel is their balanced view on the gifts of the Spirit.

http://www.joncourson.com/teaching/teachingsplay.asp?teaching=W648

Thank you so much everyone for your replies! I will be reading through each of the posts carefully and checking out the resources recommended. . . .

I would just like to say that I always experience such an amazing sense of love and community here at SermonIndex. The fact that each of you would take the time to respond and offer some input or a resource is such a blessing!

I'm also really glad that my thread has not prompted any kind of argument over a topic that I know has been furiously debated.

We have an interesting opening to the subject in I Corinthians 12:1,2 where Paul reminds the reader of their past experience:

Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.

I want to focus first on the fact that the terms used here indicate that the Gentiles understood what it meant to be 'carried along' or 'led' by a spirit. They were being led to 'dumb' idols. That is to say,

They have mouths, but they speak not: eyes have they, but they see not: (Psalm 115:5, Psalm 135:16ff)

This was a common reminder by God towards they that would chose an idol over the Living God. Unlike God, who has never been or ever shall be mute, these idols never have been or ever will be enabled to speak (save in the matter of the image of the beast of Revelation 13:15).

The contrast is informative. They that truly have the Spirit have the capability to be led of the Holy Spirit to the Living God that is not mute. That is, He SPEAKS. The word of God assumes two things and does not seek to explain them:

1. that God exists (Genesis 1:1)
2. that His creatures can recognize their creator when He speaks

Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, (Hebrews 3:7)

While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. (Hebrews 3:15)

Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. (Hebrews 4:7)

For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice, (Psalm 95:7)

The 'if' here is important. If ye shall hear (ean akousēte). Condition of third class with ean and first aorist active subjunctive of akouō. (Robertson) It is not just whether one hears in the sense of recognition or being cognizant of God-speak, but hearkening (obeying) what God has said as opposed to hardening the heart. The implication is that if God's will is not carried out is is due to a hardening of the heart rather than a failure on the part of God to bring revelation. The Living God is not a dumb idol and His voice is not superfluous.

So as we turn to I Corinthians 12 to begin looking at the question of spirituals we are immediately reminded of the muteness of idols and going forward are given revelation into what God-speak is and what it is not. We learn the purposes. Direction for the Body of Christ is the clear example of New Testament and Old Testament revelation.

Israel was entrusted the oracles of God and yet they still resisted the Holy Spirit and would not obey God's voice. God yes speak- they no listen. Solution? Pretend God no-speak. Direction? Formulate a hermeneutic that makes God-no speak make sense. Result? Usurp the authority of the Head, Jesus Christ. Blame abuse of God-speak to justify non-use of God-speak. Consequence? No hear- no follow. Do whats right in own eyes.

Consider God's dealings in Genesis

And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. (Genesis 6:3)

The Holy Spirit can be seen 'striving with man' from the beginning. Striving implies resistance. This is affirmed by Steven when He characterized the general behavior of the unbelieving Jews when he stated:

Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. (Acts 7:51)

This is very important. The Acts is profitable for doctrine (πᾶς γραφή II Timothy 3:16). These people were entrusted the Oracles of God and yet they perpetually and actively resist the Holy Spirit.

Isaiah comments on this behavior:

In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old. But they rebelled, and VEXED his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, [and] he fought against them. Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, [and] his people, [saying], Where [is] he that BROUGHT THEM UP out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where [is] he that put his holy Spirit within him? That LED [them] by the right hand of Moses with his glorious arm, dividing the water before them, to make himself an everlasting name? That LED them through the deep, as an horse in the wilderness, [that] they should not stumble? As a beast goeth down into the valley, the Spirit of the LORD caused him to rest: so didst thou LEAD thy people, to make thyself a glorious name. (Isaiah 63:9ff emphasis added)

So we see here that God desires to LEAD His people by the Holy Spirit. When they are said to resist this operation- it VEXES His Holy Spirit. The word here for vexed has a history. In Numbers 20:15 it is first used to describe how the Egyptians treated the children of Israel when they were slaves. So in effect God was saying to Israel- you are abusing ME like the Egyptians abused you- when you resist my leading and dealings.

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. (Romans 8)

I read his book 'Charismatic Chaos' half way through and I had to put it down.
I could not read on for all the poison it spews out against Charismatics and the stark contradiction of evident truth. Admittedly, the Charismatic movement had many counterfeits and scandals, but the operation of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is a non-negotiable truth. They operate best under the guidance of godly eldership.
The gifts of the Holy Spirit is in fact not a luxury or a denominational divider but essential for doing God's will and even for the survival of the church.
John MacArthur should know better, or may be he can't? I wonder if anyone who knows the baptism and filling of the Spirit can possibly come to such a conclusion? See, the baptism of the Spirit is often evidenced with the exercise of the gifts.

What do you get when you take the gifts of the Spirit away from the church?

A church with priests called pastors, privileged to preach down from the pulpit to the pews, pressing their programmes, pharisees proselyting poor people, preventing the presence of God

How can you have the Spirit and reject His gifts? If you reject His gifts, will you not also reject His comfort and counsel, his power and ability to magnify the Lord as he ought to be magnified? Will you not be reduced to the carnal damnable knowledge of the fruit of good and evil to interpret scripture? Will you not be tempted to say: Hath God really said? Will you not join the Pharisees position saying: ... this mob that knows nothing of the law—there is a curse on them."

In a Spirit lead church, Christ can truly be the head and each member will be enabled to serve as the Spirits distributes gifts and ministries. No priests are needed to teach the ignorant peasants, but prophets, teachers will preach with true unction.

I am took weak to live my Christian life without the power and gifts of the Spirit.

Sorry, John Mac Arthur, but the gifts of the Holy Spirit are too precious to be forbidden for the present age. Do not try to take away the supernatural nature from God's church.

In response to the OP, Piper has a pretty fair interpretation of the gifts still being for today, and he is coming from a Baptist perspective...not usually supportive of such things.

http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Sermons/BySeries/36/

What do you get when you take the gifts of the Spirit away from the church? A church with priests called pastors, privileged to preach down from the pulpit to the pews, pressing their programmes, pharisees proselyting poor people, preventing the presence of God

That's the thought I had after listening to J.Vernon McGee's sermons on the same. He might as well read the text in Latin for all the sense it made after hearing his sermon. The Word says that we need no one to teach but that God's anointing will lead us. If what Dr. McGee said is true there would be no way for me to ever come to the same conclusions simply by reading the words on the page. That would leave me at the mercy of the educated class of priests. It seems to me that the bible is written very plainly so that people can understand. I find it hard to believe that the Spirit would inspire Paul to write the opposite of what He really meant.

That's the thought I had after listening to J.Vernon McGee's sermons on the same. He might as well read the text in Latin for all the sense it made after hearing his sermon. The Word says that we need no one to teach but that God's anointing will lead us. If what Dr. McGee said is true there would be no way for me to ever come to the same conclusions simply by reading the words on the page. That would leave me at the mercy of the educated class of priests. It seems to me that the bible is written very plainly so that people can understand. I find it hard to believe that the Spirit would inspire Paul to write the opposite of what He really meant.

That is why is it wonderful to live in the 21st century. Exegetes and scholars are no longer at the advantage they once were due to powerful Bible programs such as Accordance software, Blue Letter Bible, etc.

As one who actually hold to a continuationist pneumatology in addition to a calvinistic soteriology, I read his book "Charismatic Chaos" with an open mind with the actual expectation of disagreeing with the content.

First of all, Macarthur does make the mistake of clumping pentacostals, Evangelical-Charismatics and the Word of Faith movement under the one umbrella as though the errors of the latter are indicative of the whole.
Secondly,in the examples he gives of excess and abuse of the spiritual gifts, he will often go to the extreme cases and use them to present what is nothing more than a strawman attack.

If there was anything positive that i gained from the book, i would say that it is a greater appreciation and understanding of the cessationist position, and yes, i will concede that while there are huge areas of disagreement that i may have with John Macarthur, I can at least say that I understand the reasoning to the point that can see why and even at times sympathize.

In response to the OP, Jack Deere's [i]Surprised by the Spirit[/i] has a whole chapter dedicated to refuting Macarthur's arguments.
Sam Storms (a Charismatic-Reformed-Baptist) also has a lot of good stuff on his website [url=http://www.enjoyinggodministries.com/studies/controversial-issues/]Enjoying God Ministries[/url]

I don't quite understand tongues in the context of the continuing gifts dialogue. Not having seen the demonstration of the gift, my question is does the manifestation of this gift actually occur where a known language is spoken as in the original Acts manifestation or are we speaking of a secret language or both? Sorry, I just haven't seen it happen before so I'm at the least uninformed. Anticipating the answer, why has the known foreign language gift apparently ceased given some of the analysis of 1 corinthians 7?

I don't quite understand tongues in the context of the continuing gifts dialogue. Not having seen the demonstration of the gift, my question is does the manifestation of this gift actually occur where a known language is spoken as in the original Acts manifestation or are we speaking of a secret language or both? Sorry, I just haven't seen it happen before so I'm at the least uninformed. Anticipating the answer, why has the known foreign language gift apparently ceased given some of the analysis of 1 corinthians 7?

As I was growing up, tongues and interpretation was the one gift that I saw in manifestation more than any other. My Great Grandfather once traveled to Mexico to minister. He did not know Spanish at all, yet stood and under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit delivered an entire sermon in flawless Spanish.

I don't believe tongues are limited to an environment in which someone knows the language spoken, but that does occasionally occur. My Great Grandfather was operating in the gift of tongues in a context that did not require interpretation. Interpretation would be required only where others did not know the tongue and as a result could not understand.

I often pray in tongues. It is not the ministry gift of tongues, but is another language all the same.

I very much respect Krautfrau for her honesty as well, but would like to ask a question. To be scripturally consistent must we not also say that knowledge has ceased and that prophecy has failed? I see no way to separate these three. Here we see three of the nine gifts listed in this letter. If one is no longer valid, must we not also invalidate the other two listed in this verse as well? In fact verse 9 then reiterates prophecy and knowledge and gives them as specific examples of that which is done away with when that which is perfect is come, not mentioning tongues again in that verse. It is just something to consider.

Frank's statement is cliche, but good. Don't throw the baby out with the baby's dirty bathwater. If someone abused teaching and taught false doctrine, we would not then say that teaching must be invalid. We would not abandon teaching because someone taught error. Likewise tongues and the gifts of the Spirit. In my opinion, the idea that any of these things has passed away is scripturally tenuous at very best, relying on very strained interpretations of one or perhaps two verses. In my experience, tongues as well as the rest of the gifts are valid and viable works of the Holy Spirit among the members of the body of Christ to manifest His love and compassion for others as we minister and to edify and build up the body.

***That understanding does not apply today with pagans. I have never heard of a pagan being converted through hearing tongues. Do you have a reference of one? They rather are shocked.***

I do, I do!! At the jail we minister at, there was a woman walking through while I was asking if there was any sick among them and several pointed to this woman and said she had bronchitis and she stopped and said what? I asked if she was sick and she said yes. I asked if we could pray for her and she bowed her head and I said, “no, lay hands on you and pray.’ She said, “OK.” Well, my friend and I both prayed and then we started praying in tongues. She never said anything but thank you and walked off. We never saw her the next week.

Three months later we were walking in and we saw her through the glass smiling as big as you please! We asked her how she was and she said (paraphrased from a year ago), “You guys didn’t know that I had blood clots in my lungs, about 20 of them, and I was being transferred the day after you prayed for me I had to get x-rayed before transfer and the doctor asked what happened and I said why and he said because there isn’t any blood clots in your lungs, not one. “ Honey, we danced in that jail!! I told her we really didn’t have anything to do with it, we were just vessels obeying the Spirit.

Then she went on and said but that’s not the best part! She went on, ‘I was raised that tongues wasn’t for today and anybody that did, wasn’t of God and when you started praying for me in tongues, I got so angry with you guys. The next day when the doctor said there weren’t any blood clots in my lungs, I knew it was of God. And then to (get transfered back in) here, they had to x-ray me again and those x-rays where clear as a bell too!”

God spoke to her through her healing that tongues were of God. It was beautiful how He orchestrated that for an inmate – someone who no one pays attention to! I don’t know why He chose to do it that way but He did. TO GOD BE ALL THE GLORY…

My dad died in 1993, I thought he died from lung cancer but my sister told me last week that he died from blood clots in his lungs. Then I started thinking about this lady I just told you about. No wonder they were constantly x-raying her between different county jails. Personally, I didn't know how bad blood clots were until my sister told me that about my dad.

Anytime God does anything, it's a HUGE MIRACLE!!! This elderly completed Jewish woman at church several years ago used to say, "We gotta hold of the small end of the biggest thing we've ever had a hold of. Hold on tight!" Amen sister!!!

God bless you!!

Narrowpath wrote:
***Admittedly, the Charismatic movement had many counterfeits and scandals, but the operation of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is a non-negotiable truth. ***

Amen and amen! I liked that, “A non-negotiable Truth!”

***The gifts of the Holy Spirit is in fact not a luxury or a denominational divider but essential for doing God's will and even for the survival of the church… - I am too weak to live my Christian life without the power and gifts of the Spirit. ***

As well, the “church” without the gifts and the power of the Spirit is too weak and that is why we are in the present state we are, without the Spirit in operation the man-made church has had to resort to their own power of programs, light shows, intimidations, comedies in the pulpit, manipulations, and guilt trips to keep the people where they think they need to be and doing what they think they need to be doing.

Also, I’d like to add that all through the Bible God has shown his people who He was through signs and wonders. Mark 16.16, 2 Cor 12.12 and Hebrews 2.4 speak of God “confirming" His word and “testifying” to His people through signs and wonders.

God bless us all to have everything spiritually that He wants for us on this side of heaven before we die!!

Perfection comes when we consent to the crucifixion of the old man in us - really and not just as a notion. Paul is speaking of it when he says that then, we will leave behind childish things and see through the veil clearly, face to face with God united with Him in baptism of the Spirit.

In I Corinthians 12:13 we read:

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

The Greek verb for baptized (ἐβαπτίσθημεν) here is in the aorist tense meaning a completed action. If Paul is saying that once a person is baptized in the Spirit they are in 'face to face' relationship and therefor are no longer in need of tongues then he has grossly contradicted himself. Because he goes on to give instruction as to the right-use of tongues all through Chapter 14.

In fact, after having himself been Baptized in the Spirit he states:

I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: (I Cor. 14:18)

This was an ongoing process for Paul. The idea is that tongues is typically a God-wards phenomena. This is even true in interpretation of tongues. Genuine prayer is prophetic. Prayer and prophesy are linked in Corinthians. (I Corinthians 11:5) The Spirit of God enables us to pray so as to pray according to the will of God. I think this is why God allows 'interpretation' of tongues because it enables us insight into what the Spirit is praying on our behalf. If there is no interpreter, the person is to pray with the Spirit so as not to cause a distraction in the gathering. They are to pray with the understanding so that others can be edified and say 'amen' to what is said.

Again Paul states clearly that the phenomena he is talking about is not multiplied linguistic capabilities, but 'with the Spirit'. Koine Greek (common or 'street' Greek) was the lingua franca of the Roman Empire. Paul also spoke Hebrew, etc. But he cannot be referring to the languages he knew as he states in I Cor. 14:14, For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

If Paul's understanding was 'unfruitful' what does that mean? Just what it says. It is the same term used in the parable of the sower; the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful. So if the understanding (mind) is unfruitful what is the benefit?

The one who speaks in a tongue builds-up himself, but the one who prophesies builds up the church. (I Cor. 14:14 Esv) The word for 'builds-up' (οἰκοδομέω/ᾠκοδόμησεν ) has a history. It's first use is Genesis 2:22 in the LXX;

And the rib that he had taken from Adam the Lord God fashioned into a woman.

Edifying is the fashioning/building of us up individually into the image of Christ. We have this explanation in Ephesians as it pertains to other Spirituals. The purpose?

For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: (Ephesians 4:11ff)

Praying with the Spirit, that is, glossa (tongues) edifies the individual unto the same purpose as the Body is edified. Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ.

This topic can be very confusing when one doesn't have a proper foundation of what the doctrines of the church are to be at their core. At their core, the doctrines of the church are supposed to be "apostolic." That is, a doctrine is "apostolic" because it follows "the pattern" the apostles encouraged others to believe and follow in regard to them. What they taught and practice was to be followed.

Thus, if one is to be apostolic, one must believe what the apostles taught, and imitate what the apostles did. Being that Paul clearly taught in 1 Corinthians that there was a gift of tongues, that he himself personally exercised it, and encouraged others to do the same, we must conclude that the "apostolic pattern" to be followed for all the Church is that the gift of tongues is a genuine gift of the Holy Spirit that is to be sought after and exercised, just as Paul taught.

It is my conviction, that anybody who teaches that the gift of tongues has already ceased, is somebody who has departed from the apostolic pattern handed down to the Church. There is no evidence whatsoever in all of Scripture to suggest that the gift of tongues was getting ready to fade away within one, two, three, four, or a thousand generations.

It's cessation, with the rest of the gifts, is tied up in the realm of eschatology and the purposes of God for the church in the present age. God is looking, through all of the varied gifts of the Holy Spirit, to build the body of Christ up to maturity at a corporate level. Such was the last day expectations of Paul in regard to the gifts of the Holy Spirit, that the body of Christ would grow up into Him who is the head, in all things. This is so that the Church might be presented to Christ as a spotless bride, without wrinkle, and that we might bear the ultimate witness that we as a Church are called to bear before all the nations in the last days.

Until those ultimate purposes are accomplished with the Church, purposes that those who espouse a cessationist view point are usually almost entirely ignorant of (in my personal estimation), then all the gifts and ministries of the Holy Spirit and the body of Christ will continue to function, until their ultimate end is accomplished. Contrary to the assertions of some, the ultimate end of the gifts of the Holy Spirit wasn't merely to validate the gospel message in the first century, or to produce the Scriptures. There is simply no Biblical basis for such an assertion.

These things, while important, instead of being the primary purposes of God in regard to the gifts, are actually simply the bi-products of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. For the primary purpose of the gifts of the Holy Spirit was not to validate the gospel in the first century, or produce the writings of the New Testament. Rather, the primary reason for the gifts of the Holy Spirit is so that you and I might fully become, as a corporate body, the people God has called us to be.

In a nutshell, whatever degree one is cessationist in their theology of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, that person is one degree departed from apostolic faith and practice, and are walking contrary to the pattern the apostles left for the Church to follow.

The corporate speaking of tongues as lead by the Spirit of God touches something deep at the core of our Adamic nature. We naturally despise such things because it involves the abandonment of our soulish control. There are a thousand excuses that may rage in our minds as to why such a thing should not be performed, and today, because of riotous abuse, there are a thousand reasons more.

However, God did not send His son into the world so that we could continue to sew fig leaves together to cover our natural shame in hopes that God may not peak at our puerile nudity. He ascended, and lead captivity captive and distributed gifts to men that we may grow up into Him, whom is the head of all things. We must relinquish Adam...Adam who rails at God and blames Him for his sin, Adam, who was not deceived, but rather chose, knowing full well the implication, to defy God. This pride, like a lake of fire, swells and crashes against the shore of grace. Never to breach its alpine climbs. It must yield rather and humble itself that it may be lifted up, to rain upon the mountains as a fresh shower...a new spring dew. Where life may yet burst forth upon those seated in heavenly places.

Adam hates the gifts...because Adam hates to relinquish the control he thought he wrested from God's hand. Pride...it was utter pride in me that resented the gifts as well. I was no new case. Just a prideful schmuck that thought God was not capable of keeping in decent order that which he designed.

It is always the folly of men to wrest control from Him whom designed it.

Good word Jimmy.

"Observe first. The Christian's armour which he wears must be of divine institution and appointment. The soldier comes into the field with no arms but what his general commands. it is not left to every one's fancy to bring what weapons he please; this will breed confusion. The Christian soldier is bound up to God's order; though the army be on earth, yet the council of war sits in heaven; this duty ye shall do; these means ye shall use. And [those who] do more, or use other, than God commands, though with some seeming success against sin, shall surely be called to account for this boldness. The discipline of war among men is strict in this case. Some have suffered death by a council of war even when they have beaten the enemy, because out of their place, or beside their order. God is very precise in this point; he will say to such as invent ways to worship him of their own, coin means to mortify corruption, obtain comfort in their own mint: 'Who hath required this at your hands?' This is truly to be 'righteous over-much,' as Solomon speaks, when we will pretend to correct God's law, and add supplements of our own to his rule." -William Gurnall, The Christian in Complete Armour.

Adam Hates to relinquish control to God. Even still, I struggle...the Spirit wars against the flesh, Oh help me God. Let Adam die at long last...

They practised circumcision.

Hold on a minute. If you are referring to outward circumcision of the flesh the only time Paul would have allowed for it was to prevent giving offense to the Jews. This is the primary subject in Acts 15. There are numerous passages that deal with this including Romans 4:11, Galatians 5:2, etc.

Circumcision of the heart is another matter. (Romans 2:29)

The Church Fathers are no place to look for many important subjects because after the death of John the churches almost immediately began moving in a non-New Testament form of leadership, etc. The scriptures are our authority. By the time Augustine arrives on the scene Constantine had already made Christianity the religion of the state. At Nicea in 325 the leaders took Tertullians Trinity formula three persons one substance (treis Hypostases, Homoousios) and moved farther away from the prophetic. It could be that the Montanists in the middle 2nd century had cause a stigma on tongues, the prophetic in general, etc. because of their false notions, but that is speculation. The Jews had no desire for God to rule over them and the established Universal Church soon followed their pattern.

As for tongues being an ongoing sign to the Jews I would point out that in the circles Paul was moving in there were very few Jews around. He had already told the people that if there is no interpretation to the tongues that people would say they were 'mad'; this would include Jews. But if what you are saying is true there are many Jews today that would likewise need to witness the sign. I don't see this as the purpose of tongues, but rather as Paul explains on I Cor. 14.

I am indeed in a very dry place and have lost the presence of my Saviour. It is callled the dark night of the spirit and through it I have had everything taken away from me including all of my family. I count all things as gain however in the kingdom of God but there is a time of mourning and of sitting on the heap in sackcloth and ashes before the glory of the Lord comes. Suffering is for the growth of the spirit and of closer intimacy with Christ. So you are correct to pick that up and thanks for saying it.

I have sought to be restored but the Lord has not granted that yet so I wait on Him with trust and love.

Brenda: Might I suggest that the concept of God somehow putting us through a "dark night of the soul", or a "desert experiece" is not a Biblical concept for a new covenant believer. The very fact that Jesus ascended and sent the comforter, the Holy Spirit, the paraklete (the one who comes alongside us and empowers us) is the evidence that God does not put us through these experiences. The word tells us to draw near to God and He WILL draw near to us. 1 John 2:27 tells us that the anointing of the Holy Spirit, once received, abides forever, comes to permanently dwell to never depart. 1 Cor. 2 tells us that this abiding presence of the Holy Spirit gives us knowledge of the very mind of Christ, of the spiritual riches that he has prepared for His body. The latter half of Jesus teaching recorded in John 14 and the first half of John 15 are one continuous thought. In this teaching, Jesus says that He has spoken these things to us that His joy might remain in us and dwell in us in fullness. We must come out of the old testament in this area because the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit changed everything.

If we are not experiencing joy, if it seems like our prayers are not effective, if it seems that we are in a dry place and cannot get out of it, the problem does not lie with God. He is not doing it to us. It may be the enemy warring against us. It may be that we ourselves are in a place of disobedience. I am not necessarily talking about blatant things, although these things might be taking place, but rather things that may seem small to us but are big in the spirit. Perhaps deep things in our souls. It may be that we are not listening to God. But it is not God that is doing it, it is not His fault so to speak. He gave us the abiding presence of the Holy Spirit. Being full of the Spirit of God and spiritual dryness and dark nights of the soul are mutually exclusive. Where one exists, the other cannot.

This is not to say we don't sometimes go through times that are trying spiritually for the reasons I listed, or other reasons. But is it through the power of the Holy Spirit that we triumph over these times, that we come out in victory. At times we need our brothers and sisters to come alongside and help us. God intended His body to be dependent on Him and interdependent on each other with every joint supplying. But this dark night is definitely not a thing sent from God. It is a thing to be warred against through the word of God and the power of the Holy Spirit.

I am very encouraged that we are having this discussion on SI in the tone that I see in this thread. Great discussion, full of the word of God, full of love, with no animosity or angst against anyone. Praise God. I am praying for you this AM in America Brenda.

They practised circumcision.

Actually, the apostles did not teach and practice the necessity of circumcision as being the pattern for the church to follow. Paul clearly taught against being circumcised. The book of Galatians was written for this purpose.

Tongues was for a sign

Indeed, but such is merely ONE reason. But speaking in tongues was also done for personal and corporate edification, to build the body up into conformity with the image of Christ. The gifts were not merely for signs, though they do serve such a purpose. Rather, their primary purpose is for the edification of the saints, though, they do serve the purpose of being signs for unbelievers, including the Jews.

History bears this out as the later letters did not say anything at all about tongues and the early church fathers did not mention it nor Augustine and the church since till the beginings at Asusa Street when it become accepted.

Paul's letters were occasional letters, written in response to specific needs. Thus, if issues about the gifts of the Spirit did not need to be brought up to other churches, he did not bring them up. The reason they were brought up in 1 Corinthians is because it was an issue.

In 1 Corinthians Paul dedicates a little over 4 chapters to the pattern he expected the churches to follow when they assembled together (1 Corinthians 10-14). Indeed, in 1 Corinthians 11:1-2, he says these things he is teaching in this letter are in imitation of Christ, and are the traditions he delivered to them, and expects them to follow. In 1 Corinthians 14:5, Paul says he wishes everybody in the Church would have the gift of tongues, just as he speaks in tongues. And to wrap everything up, in 1 Corinthians 14:37-40, Paul says that these things are the Lord's commandments, and he says if people do not recognize these things as such, they in turn should not be recognized.

So, even though the issue of tongues is only mentioned in Paul's epistle to the Corinthians (and quite a few times at that), the theology of Paul set forth in 1 Cor. 10-14 makes it very evident that Paul expected the things he taught in these chapters to be the model the assembled Church was to follow, and such was the commandment of the Lord. Was it just the pattern for the Corinthians? No. It was the pattern for all the Churches, even down to our day. Indeed, to forbid anybody to speak in tongues during a service, as some who hold various degrees of cessationist view points do, would be contrary to the apostolic teaching of Paul.

Additionally, it is completely false to say that there are no mention of tongues in the early church fathers, and that it was entirely without practice until Azusa Street. My brother, I think you are saying such out of ignorance. In fact, speaking in tongues was a regular part of the Church, with the rest of the gifts of the Spirit, until about the time the Montanist movement arose and was stamped out. And even after that period, we see testimony to its usage (though, very spotty) in various movements in Church history.

In fact, if you wish to get historical about this, there is more testimony to people speaking in tongues in church history than there are people attesting to the doctrine of justification by faith. Nobody taught the doctrine of justification by faith alone, through grace alone, for over 1,000 years of church history. But, such doesn't make a doctrine or practice false, simply because of a spotty record.

Here is a quick link if you wish for a real quick survey on the topic of speaking in tongues throughout church history: http://brothermel.com/tonguesthroughoutchurchhistory.aspx

Prophecy continues...

I am glad you believe prophecy does continue to this day. With that said then, it should not be hard to believe that speaking in tongues continues to this day as well. Why? Because as 1 Corinthians 14 and Acts 2 makes clear, speaking in tongues is simply a form of prophetic speech. An unusual form of prophetic speech, but a form of prophetic speech just the same.

Cessationists however, have a relationship with a book and that is why they are dried up springs.

I'm not sure I would quite go this far, but I definitely share a similar sentiment.

Suffering with Christ is not at all the same thing as Christ making us suffer. Christ in the wilderness was tempted, not of God, but of the enemy. He overcame through the power of the Holy Spirit and through the power of the word of God which He used as the sword of the Spirit to defeat the enemy. It was not a dark night of the soul in which God withdrew His presence, rather Jesus was led into the wilderness by the Holy Spirit within Him and overcame through that presence within Him.

You are right, Paul spend several years out of the public and historical eye and we do not know what happened to him other than when he stepped on the scene and began to minister it was with the power and authority of the Holy Spirit within him.

Being baptized into His death and suffering with Him are not synonymous with God withdrawing His presence or with God somehow putting us through a time of not sensing His movings or His Holy Spirit. It is not synonymous with "dry times". Persecution will come, but does not come at God's behest. Persecution comes from the enemy to try to get us to back down from the word of God (Matt. 13), and to try to get us to be offended in Christ and give up. It is meant to destroy us and comes from the one who hates the fact that we walk full of the power of the Holy Spirit.

Job did not have the abiding and indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. He lived and operated under the old covenant. When Christ ascended and sent the comforter, everything changed. Now we can become the manifested sons of God in this earth walking in the power of His Holy Spirit, doing the works that He did. It is the whole purpose of the comforter that as He is, so should we be in this present world. No matter the persecution or attack of the enemy, 1/3 of us (our spirit) is wall to wall Holy Ghost and we can walk in the joy of the Lord and experience His power and presence every single day because God's Holy Spirit dwells IN US.

I am not trying to say that we will not have problems. We are bucking the trend, fighting a real enemy, and as a result we WILL have persecution and spiritual battles. Our cars will probably break down just like our unsaved neighbors'. We live in a natural and fallen world. I am saying that in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him. If I am martyred for my faith, I will do so full of the power of the Holy Spirit and joy. Not that I am anything, but I know whose I am and He has filled me with His Spirit.

I guess I am just trying to tell you that the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit changes everything. It brings us to a place where we walk in His power, not our own.

God bless you today Brenda

I am very thankful that countless belivers all over the world that have experienced being filled with the Holy Spirit, speaking in tongues, and manifesting spiritual gifts did not read John McCarthur's book, and therefore did not realzie that these spiritual gifts have ceased to exist. Thank God they believe that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. "AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,' God says, 'THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND; AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY, AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS, AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS" (Acts 2:17).

One would really have to be blind to what is going on in the world today as well as to ignore the fact that instead of these spiritual gifts ceasing to exist, they are actually being restored to the church, and this has been going on especially in the last 100 years or so in particular with the fire falling at Azusa Street.

Those that believe the teaching of Cessationism will miss out on God's best for their life. Because they do not believe that God still heals, they will not have faith for healing, so the best that they can do is to pray a "if it be thy will, please heal me". They will go to a church that does not believe in the gifts of the Spirit, and therefore will be robbed from the benefits of the gifts which the Spirit gives to build up the Body of Christ.

"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover." (Mark 16:17,18).

"Truly, truly, I say to you, He that believes on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go to my Father." (John 14:12).

Most of the church has not entered in to the fulness of the above scriptures. Regardless of man's doubt and unbelief on the subject: "let God be found true, though every man be found a liar."

Mike

krautfrau wrote:

The `perfect` is not scripture or Jesus. It is perfection, that is, the perfection of ourselves - entire sanctification. Paul is telling us that when this occurs, love remains, tongues cease, but knowledge and prophesy enlarge.

The basis for krautfrau believing that tongues have ceased all hinges on her interpretaion above that we obtain 'entire sanctification'(perfection). This begs the question, do you really believe your are perfect? Really!!
So Paul the Apostle obviously was not, as he still needed to 'speak in tongues more than you all'. Also he told us in Phillippians 3:12 that he Had NOT obtained perfection.
Are you more sanctified than the apostles? DO you have more power or closer walk with the Lord?

That said the explanations already given are correct that say this perfection is in context clearly the position we will be in when we go to be with Jesus and see Him face to face.

I'm sorry, but your position just does not hold water.

Krautfrau or anyone else for that matter will not believe that gift is for today unless the Lord opens her or their eyes. Trust Him to do what you can't in her and others, and if He doesn't, then He doesn't!

God bless us all!!

One of the things which really swung it for me, apart from the fact that my first encounter with tongues left my spirit disturbed

Brenda: I know I have shared this before on another thread, but I would like to share with you my personal testimony if I may.

I was raised in a movement that very much believed in entire sanctification as the second definite work of grace after salvation. Within this movement individual viewpoints ranged from one end of the spectrum to the other. Some believed in christian perfectionism and that sanctification placed a believer in a totally sinless condition. I know of more than one person who, as a result of this teaching, have stalled out at that place in their Christian walk, seeing that they are not yet "perfect" in their own actions and believing that they have not been nor can be sanctified, and have given up on ever receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit. This because of a teaching that one is not holy enough and does not qualified to be baptized in the Holy Spirit until one has reached some arbitrary level of sinlessness and personal holiness. I say arbitrary because it seems to be different for each person. Personally, I believe that this has given the enemy a great foothold as he is always able to cast doubt. I was one of those who was so affected.

I prayed in earnest for the baptism of the Holy Spirit for several years off and on but was always stopped short by doubts, although the presence and power of God were very palpably upon me.

Finally, I realized that my victory over sin was not a matter of "sanctification" at all. That sanctification is a separation of myself from one purpose or use and a simultaneous separation of myself unto another purpose or use. It was a separation from the world and from the worlds way of thinking, speaking, and doing unto God and unto His way of thinking, speaking and doing. It was a realization that holiness would never by a product of my setting myself apart unto God aside from this setting apart being empowered by the Holy Spirit. In other words, I did not need to somehow reach a certain level of holiness in order to qualify to be baptized in the Holy Spirit, but I needed to be baptized in the Holy Spirit in order to have the power to overcome sin. It was a bit like trying to vacuum the carpet with a vacuum cleaner that was not plugged into the power source, hoping that the power source would somehow connect if I got the carpet clean enough.

Anyway, when this revelation came, I receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit easily. It had not been God's lack of giving. The gift was already there. It was my lack of ability to receive.

When I received the baptism of the Holy Spirit I was enraptured with the presence of God. His presence was so sweet. It was the same presence that had been palpable before. I began to worship Him, to praise Him, and my words were not enough. I began to pray in another tongue. I come from a very musical family and love to sing. I then desired to sing and worship the Lord. I began singing in another tongue. Suddenly I realized I was not singing alone. A friend of mine who had also been seeking the baptism of the Holy Spirit had also received and was singing with me, the same melody unknown to either of us, the same words in a tongue unknown to either of us, in perfect unison and harmony. And with it was the sweet presence of the Holy Spirit.

Over the last 20 years I have learned more and more how to walk in the Spirit. I have realized the great empowerment of the Spirit of God and His ever abiding presence. Even at times when I have been unfaithful, He has never withdrawn but has instead convicted me and wooed me into the presence of God in repentance. I have experienced the gifts of the Spirit and pray in tongues daily. Oh His sweet presence.

Just thought I would share that with you. I pray that God richly bless you today.

Hello All!!

I for one must say that I am glad that this questions was asked and that there are so many responses. I myself have struggled with this question of cessationism within the last few weeks or so. Being raised a Christian and being on the fringes of Pentecostalism, COGIC, Baptist these were things that were mentioned only every now and then, but my dad and mom were somewhat open to all the gifts believing that God is sovereign and will do whatever He wanted, whenever He wanted to.

I had heard the word cessationism before, but never really thought much about it until a few weeks ago listening to Wretched Radio. Apparently Todd is a cessationist. I don't hold that against him. I have finally come to the conclusion that not everyone has light on everything. There are many things that Christians tried to tell me years ago that I could not understand until now. When God finally opened my eyes to my blindness I was dumbfounded. How could I have not seen this or that!! Well in the Lord's timing He showed me grace and opened my eyes where I was blind.

As for tongues let me share a story that I heard from a minister that visited our congregation a few years ago. I had read somewhere that tongues were no longer for the church and that people were not really speaking in a language, but speaking gibberish. This person gave many proof texts from the scriptures and I (as a person that speaks in tongues) decided that I must have missed God on this. Because I wanted to be scripturally sound on this, decided that I would not speak in tongues again. A few weeks later after making this decision the above mentioned minister came to visit. He shared a story with us of his salvation.

He was an unbelieving Jew who had married a Gentile. A friend of his wife's began to witness to her and invited her to a Pentecostal church revival. The wife went and got saved, so therefore she invited her Jewish husband to return with her. For some time the husband refused to go because he was Jewish, although not a practicing Jew.

One night after pressure from his wife, he decided to go. I remember he said that the evangelist told them after the sermon that anyone who wanted the Holy Spirit, with the evidence of tongues should come up to the altar. He said that he had no idea what they were talking about and had only heard of tongues as they related to animals since his dad had been a butcher.

He began to feel uncomfortable and left to walk outside to the foyer. While outside he began contemplating in his mind about what was going on, firmly believing that he needed to go back inside, get his wife and leave. As he was about to go back inside another young man walked out, saw him and asked if he could pray for him. He being surprised and not knowing what to do, said sure. He said that the young man began to pray for him and as he did he began to pray the Amidah which is a Jewish prayer. He said that he was very familiar with the prayer being raised a Ashkenazi or either a Sephardic Jew (I can't remember which one).

After the young man finished praying he says that he asked him why he was at this church since he was a Jew. The man had no idea what he was talking about. This is when he explained about the Amidah prayer. The young man had never heard of it and did not realize that the Jewish man could understand his prayer language.

This was a great testimony for me and made me realize that the tongues I have are given to me by God. Some may not understand it and may not believe it is for today. That no longer concerns me. I will just keep praying that my Father will open up their eyes where they are blinded. I know, because there are areas in my life where I have been blind and am just now seeing.

lea

Now, there was a pastor from a certain denomination, who shared the view that tongues simply were not for today. So here he is standing in the Pacific Ocean baptizing new converts, and then all of a sudden, one guy goes under the water, and when he comes up, he's speaking in tongues.

Praise the Lord! That's sounds just like something God would do!! LOL To God be all the glory!

I think you are spot on.

Testimony:
I was praying at a pentecostal night vigil a few years back. There was something i could really reconcile and had been asking God. It says in the old testament that where the word of a king is there is power. I was wondering why with a room of over 350 people at a night vigil all screaming out in tongues why someone could be wheeled in on a wheel chair and then be wheeled back out again. I demanded an answer because something was wrong. Then it was like a flood gate. He asked me How can 350 spirit filled believers have a true in filling and pray for 3 hours for a better house, Car Job and business. Its simple son of the people here who have received received a genuine gift the majority are pleading for their abominable sins and covetousness. The others i went on to learn were just mimicking the gift as they had been trained to psycho-semantically produce these gifts by others (An unction in the flesh). I was saved at one of the biggest pentecostal churches in England. I was literally forced to speak in tongues they literally shouted at me and the wife "Common, speak it, let it flow" i was intimated into speaking in tongues but my heart felt empty. Somehow i knew i didn't have the authentic gift of tongues and kept on pressing God for and in-filling. The holy spirit gives gifts as he wills. We are told to follow the way of love but to also seek the best spiritual gifts.

Question

Mark 16:17
17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues;
(gloce'-sah
Of uncertain affinity; the tongue; by implication a language (specifically one naturally unacquired): - tongue.)

1.What did Jesus mean by saying they(believers) will speak with a new tongue?

2. If Jesus meant only believers of a certain point it time would speak with a new tongue then what other promises to believers are not meant for the modern day believer? And how do i determine what promises of the new testament no longer apply.

The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For [b]they heard them speaking in tongues[/b] and praising God. (Acts 10.45-46)

People say you don't have to receive tongues to have the baptism of the Holy Spirit but I am going to be candid as well and say that I believe this Scripture in Acts proves that speaking in tongues was the most common sign of the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Because as soon as Peter and the rest heard them, they knew they were accepted by the Father. And then Peter asks what is to keep them from being baptised in water?

I'd like to add as new as this gift of the Holy Spirit was, Peter wasn't afraid he or anyone else was receiving "another" spirit instead of the Holy Spirit... He trusted God that if they asked their Heavenly Father for bread, He would not give them a stone. Is anything less expected from us? No, we MUST trust that if we ask God for the baptism and the gifts of divers tongues, He will not give us a stone either!!

The scripture that Lysa commented on is very prevalent to helping Brenda if she will only receive it. Jesus’ words are very clear that if we being evil know how to give good gifts to our children then how much more will the Father give the Holy Spirit to them who ask Him. He says that God will not give us something to harm us.

This I have perceived is the main problem that Brenda is experiencing concerning her relationship with the Lord. I sense that this could be the main reason she is not feeling the presence of the Lord with the joy that is so important to our walk with God.

Brenda we must know God and know that we are living in the last days of the out pouring of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the same as Jesus being the same yesterday, today, and forever.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

We must overcome all fear that the Lord will allow anyone of his children to receive anything evil when they are truly honestly seeking to be filled with the Holy Spirit.

We also are to understand that people are deceived and have received a counterfeit to the genuine experience. The genuine is of the true God and the counterfeit is of the devil.

We are to know that one must be born of God before they can be filled or baptized in the Holy Spirit. God will not baptize/fill a person with the Holy Spirit that has not been born of God first. The devil can give a counterfeit spirit to those who are not born of God but a counterfeit spirit cannot enter and live in the temple of God in whose temple we are because God will not allow it.

Brenda you need to be free from your fear of not fully trusting God because the bible says that perfect love casts out fear. He that fears is not made perfect in love.

It is clear from the book of acts that all those who were baptized in the Holy Spirit (Jews & Gentiles) spoke in tongues as the Spirit gave the utterance.

The Holy Spirit is the same today and is doing the same things he did in the beginning of the church.

Brenda if you know that you are born of God and that God truly loves you then don’t grieve or quench the Holy Spirit. We are grieving the Holy Spirit if we don’t trust Him thinking that He would give us or allow anything that is not of God to come into our lives.

Now if a person is not born again of God and is seeking a spirit or desiring power then you can be deceived because the seed of God is not abiding in you.

God is Spirit and they that worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and is truth.

Ps. Don’t attribute what the Holy Spirit does to the devil. It is the devil who counterfeits not God. Those people of God who are saved by the blood of Jesus and baptized in the Holy Ghost with the same evidence of speaking in tongues that they received in the beginning of the church have the Spirit and the Word of God to back up their experience.

Ps. Since I have been gloriously baptized in the Holy Spirit (with bible evidence) it has caused me to overcome things that I could have in no way of ever being able to overcome. I don’t even bother to argue with people who claim the experience is not of God nor do I get upset with them because there is a peace in knowing. I have learned to pity and have compassion on the ignorant. But God knows whether the person is ignorant or just being vicious.

I was saved at one of the biggest pentecostal churches in England. I was literally forced to speak in tongues they literally shouted at me and the wife "Common, speak it, let it flow" i was intimated into speaking in tongues but my heart felt empty. Somehow i knew i didn't have the authentic gift of tongues and kept on pressing God for and in-filling. The holy spirit gives gifts as he wills. We are told to follow the way of love but to also seek the best spiritual gifts.

Rainman: Unfortunately these things do happen in the body of Christ. It highlights that need for mature eldership and mature teachers in the body. When I counsel someone on receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit, I will explain that this baptism, like salvation, is received as a gift by faith. It is God's expressed desire, and if the person I am praying with is born again, they qualify. Praying in tongues is a powerful part of a spirit filled life, but it is not the focal point. I simply tell them that they can pray in tongues once they receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit, tell them that praying in tongues too, like all else we receive from God or do in His power, is an act of faith. I have yet to have anyone not begin to pray in tongues upon receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

I too have been bothered by the powerlessness that is often seen among pentecostal people. I have seen the lame walk. I have seen one who had no sense of smell have it restored in an instant. A few weeks ago I saw a young man regain peripheral vision that had been lost for several years in an instant of time. I have also prayed and seen nothing happen in that moment, many times. One prayer of mine has been, Lord, fill me more and more with the power of Your Holy Spirit and give me Your heart in ministering to others. It is sad to see people to whom a new car outweighs the salvation or healing of another. But I praise God that He is changing hearts and that His power is poured out nonetheless.

People say you don't have to receive tongues to have the baptism of the Holy Spirit but I am going to be candid as well and say that I believe this Scripture in Acts proves that speaking in tongues was the most common sign of the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Lysa: I agree. One does not have to pray in tongues to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit, but I don't believe one will long be baptized in the Holy Spirit before he will be praying in tongues.

Hello!

I come from a Pentecostal background, but I've found myself questioning my Pentecostal experience because I seem to lack the power that Biblical Pentecost should produce. What I've been led back to lately is this question: what is the purpose of the baptism of the Holy Ghost?

Jesus spoke to His disciples about the coming Comforter in John 14-16. From these verses we learn that it is the purpose of the Holy Ghost to teach the disciples and to remind them of the words of Christ (John 14:26); it is also His purpose to testify of Jesus (John 15:26). And these verses from John 16:7-15 I want to post here in full:
"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you."

It would seem to me that the gifts of the Spirit would only build on these original purposes of the Holy Ghost that Jesus taught here. Therefore, the gifts of the spirit must teach us about Jesus, remind us of the words of Jesus, testify of Jesus, and glorify Jesus. There is also an element of judgment in the work of the Holy Ghost so the gifts must have an element of judgment as well.

What I have seen in the Pentecostal church is a tendancy to replace the message of the cross with what we have called the baptism of the Holy Ghost. Certainly there are three areas of focus in the work of the Holy Ghost and, therefore, in spiritual gifts. The Comforter was to come to perform the personal work of reminding the disciples of the words of Christ; this could also be viewed as a corporate work in the early church; the Comforter also was to have a work in the world in testifying of Jesus and reproving the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment.

We see here, then, that there is a Biblical foundation for spiritual gifts to be able to edify believers in their personal spiritual growth, to edify the church in corporate worship, and to bring judgment to unbelievers who come in contact with the spiritual gifts through the lives of believers or in the church body.

Note: The foundation of the work of the Comforter is to lift up Jesus. Any person claiming to be operating under the influence of God's Spirit or using spiritual gifts can be proven true or false based on this criteria: do they magnify Jesus Christ?

So, there's what I've learned thus far on this topic. I'm always still learning. And, as always, look it up and study it out for yourself, asking God to lead you.

It would seem to me that the gifts of the Spirit would only build on these original purposes of the Holy Ghost that Jesus taught here. Therefore, the gifts of the spirit must teach us about Jesus, remind us of the words of Jesus, testify of Jesus, and glorify Jesus. There is also an element of judgment in the work of the Holy Ghost so the gifts must have an element of judgment as well.

Becca: ABSOLUTELY! Amen! The gifts are not the PURPOSE of the Holy Spirit, they are the manifestation of the Holy Spirit. They are the tools He uses as He operated from His purpose to accomplish the will of God in the earth. It was never about tongues, prophecy, healings, miracles, or any of the other gifts. It was about the Spirit of Him who raised Christ from the dead living and dwelling in us. It was about His power being imparted to us. It was about us becoming "god men" if I may use that term. Little Christs, or manifested sons of God walking this earth filled with the same Spirit that indwelt Christ Jesus. It is about our being in communion with the Spirit of God so that His supernatural nature lives through us to reach and minister to this fallen world. From your post I know that you agree that the gifts of the Spirit are valid and active among the church today. It was God's intent that it be so. But the gifts are not the focal point.

I think that is why we see Paul teaching that the love of God in 1 Cor. 13 is to be the motivating factor behind the operation of the gifts of the Spirit in 1 Cor. 12 and 14. Although it has been applied to human relationships and particularly to marriage, it was never intended so. Paul was speaking in context of the gifts of the Spirit and was dealing with the motivation behind the gifts. God's kind of love and compassion (charity) is the catalyst, the motivation that drives the operation of the gifts of the Spirit.

BAM!!! Travis you nailed it. I have been watching this thread the whole time and here we finally have the ringer. The manifestations of the giftings are a reflection of body health, and that Body health is the result of believers being subjected to the fundamental purpose of the Spirit, which Jesus said was to convict of: Sin, Righteousness, and Judgment. When we walk in yielded response to these "comforts," AS A BODY, and not as Islands or individuals. Then the manifesting of the gifts of faith through love will have their right expression and we will have no jealousy when God decides to use an individual, rather we as the body will prayerfully bear those brothers and sisters on our shoulders through prayer and support because we know that God has a purpose in how he articulates this through different members. It is when we get this backwards and try to force out the manifestations without first having built upon the proper foundation, that the building gets crooked.

We see that in the book of acts chapter 9:31, that the churches had rest and in this rest they were walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the COMFORT of the Holy Ghost, which Jesus directly linked to the above mentioned convictions. When the body was rightly walking in these comforts...it was then that Peter passed throughout all quarters and dramatic manifestations expressed the working of the Spirit.

I think part of the problem, at least as I am starting to see it, is that we view this whole discussion on too much of an individualistic basis. It is body life...not island life, that works this stuff out. It is my sincere hope that at the very least, we as the church may once again get this foundation collectively right of responding to the convictions together.

What we can perceive to be manifestations can well be a perversion of reality when we are not primarily subject to God convicting us of sin, toward the righteousness of the Son, because we understand the Nature of Gods judgment as the serpents head was bruised at the resurrection. Which is a warning to all men. We must readily, regularly be willing to expose our selves to the Judgments of God. At any time for it is then that we "walk in the light, as he is in the light." The light of His fiery gaze rends asunder the shadowy tatters of my heart. When the body of Christ walks in this with complete submission and total recognition of these things it leads to total yieldedness to His purposes. Then world...look out cuz some stuff is going to be put to open shame as the purpose of the Cross is fulfilled in actuality.

At least these are conclusions I have come to just from studying the topic myself. I recognize that I have never heard anyone teach this before so...I am willing to recognize that my interpretation is possibly muddled. However it sure seems to be the implication to me. And I also recognize that I have yet to see this in total actuality. It is my sincere hope though that God uses sermonindex and a coming revival to bring us to this unity of the faith as one Body such that the Spirit is not limited by our petty cutting and devouring of one another.

Jesus is looking for the yielded Bride...not pompous individualism.

Areadymind: I agree brother. The baptism of the Holy Spirit, while it is an individual experience, has at its core the idea that we are thus empowered to be joints supplying as God has given us to supply.

From your post, I would almost swear that you have been reading Watchman Nee or T.A. Sparks.

Submission to the Holy Spirit and self-determination are opposite and in any specific area of my life mutually exclusive. I once heard a man say that just as the medium of exchange in the world's system is money, the medium of exchange in the kingdom of God is obedience. It is not that we earn anything from God, as the things of the kingdom cannot be earned. But there is a surrender, a submission to the Lord that opens us up to be channels through which the Holy Spirit can move. Through surrender and obedience we empower God to be able to work in our lives by removing the hindrance of self.

Great post! I must say I have thoroughly enjoyed this thread almost more than any other I have taken part in.

I have read a little bit of Nee, but t.b.h. I don't know anything about T. Austin Sparks, I have seen him on here but have failed to really listen to anything. That post actually came out of a great deal of agonizing for me through exactly what Jesus meant when he talked about the convictions of the Spirit. As I had never really heard anyone teach on it, and was wrestling through a lot of these issues, and having seen a lot of half-hearted attempts of individuals I know to manifest the Spirit...but there was always something direly lacking. What I was forced to conclude is that it is all real...but its slightly wonky and out of place because what I saw was built on shifting sand rather than on rock. The manifesting of the Spirit just cannot in any way be contrived by men. So I just wait, and I pray, and hope to find other like minded believers who are willing to wait as well.

I once heard a man say that just as the medium of exchange in the world's system is money, the medium of exchange in the kingdom of God is obedience. It is not that we earn anything from God, as the things of the kingdom cannot be earned. But there is a surrender, a submission to the Lord that opens us up to be channels through which the Holy Spirit can move. Through surrender and obedience we empower God to be able to work in our lives by removing the hindrance of self.

Sorry Travis, I forgot to say an uber amen to this statement. This is a great summary of the End of the first epistle to Timothy. When Paul basically says that the Love of money is the root of all evil and the way we combat it is through the currency of heaven by fleeing such wicked lusts and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith love patience, meekness. This is how we fight the good fight and as you mentioned above through obedience we "Lay hold of eternal life."

This is just so worthy of such a shout and an amen that I am realizing that the Lord is doing a work through many people here because flesh and blood does not reveal these things. God is working in our hearts brothers and sisters. O that the oil of the unity of the Spirit would flow between us like it ran down the beard of Aaron. Decreasing our friction for the promotion of what is meaningful to our Lord and to Him alone...

Quoting Travis: “I think that is why we see Paul teaching that the love of God in 1 Cor. 13 is to be the motivating factor behind the operation of the gifts of the Spirit in 1 Cor. 12 and 14. …Paul was speaking in context of the gifts of the Spirit and was dealing with the motivation behind the gifts. God's kind of love and compassion (charity) is the catalyst, the motivation that drives the operation of the gifts of the Spirit.”

My response: Amen. John 13:34-35 “A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.”

Quoting Travis again: The baptism of the Holy Spirit, while it is an individual experience, has at its core the idea that we are thus empowered to be joints supplying as God has given us to supply.

My response: Amen again. Eph 4:11-16 “And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.”

The events of Pentecost empowered the disciples to witness about what they had seen. What I’ve struggled with recently as a “Pentecostal” (I use that term carefully) is whether or not I have sought the baptism of the Holy Spirit for the right purpose. Have I tried to box the Holy Spirit into a gift for ME? Or am I willing to let HIM work through me to fulfill the will of God in the church and in witnessing to the world around me. It really is a question of surrender, of yielding myself, isn’t it?

Quoting Snufalapagus: “The last part of your quote, "Do they magnify Jesus Christ?". That is the scary part of deception, most of them do. Jesus said, Matthew 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. They will glorify Jesus Christ through and through, but the end result is what kind of people are they drawing in? What kind of fruit is being harvested?”

What I should have better defined here (and I apologize to everyone for the confusion) is what I meant by “magnify.” I mean that the person claiming to have a gift of the Spirit should manifest the mind and spirit of Christ. This means a humility and obedience to the will of God. This means more than claiming the name of Jesus Christ; it means the person’s motives, actions, and attitudes follow the pattern of Christ’s. Obviously, a tele-evangelist “speaking in tongues” and promising unbiblical blessings to the next person to give to the tele-evangelist’s “ministry” is not truly magnifying Jesus Christ, even if he or she claims the name of Jesus and/or the gifts of the Spirit. Matthew 7:21-23 “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”

Quoting Areadymind: “O that the oil of the unity of the Spirit would flow between us like it ran down the beard of Aaron. Decreasing our friction for the promotion of what is meaningful to our Lord and to Him alone...”

My response: Amen and amen!

Becca2010 spoke about THE PURPOSE of seeking the baptism of the Holy Spirit and YIELDING OR SURRENDERING.

Quoting Becca2010: "The events of Pentecost empowered the disciples to witness about what they had seen. What I’ve struggled with recently as a “Pentecostal” (I use that term carefully) is whether or not I have sought the baptism of the Holy Spirit for the right purpose. Have I tried to box the Holy Spirit into a gift for ME? Or am I willing to let HIM work through me to fulfill the will of God in the church and in witnessing to the world around me. It really is a question of surrender, of yielding myself, isn’t it?"

One perspective of the problem many self-identified “charismatics“ evidence to others (charismatic, pentecostal, non-tongue speakers, oh my these words!) --- what it often looks like it (the problem) might be to me --- is that in their rush to be filled with spirit (Holy or unholy), to be anointed, to get POWER, spiritual power, so they can do the mighty works of God, is that they have missed the cross ---SPECIFICALLY they have missed the death of self.

Not that they are alone in this by any means. What God [triune] did on the cross and through His body for me is often treated like a"second base" to be touched quickly in rounding the bases, amidts cheering onlookers, and then remembered yearly in sympathy for Jesus.

But maybe that is how speaking in tongues became a must-do-it work with “how to” instructions, the solution to all problems. Maybe it was some other way, like presented as a fast tract to something. I don't know the history. Maybe Frank's “classical Pentecostals” know the death of self.

Becca2010, Yielding or surrendering are words that just don't seem to catch it. Death. That's what I reckon it is. Mine. In the end, not a bit of my sin nature makes it through that. Remember Ravenhill's lament: "Wouldn't it be wonderful to have a few men like Paul? He said, "I'm dead!" Dead to self... dead to ambition... dead to feelings... dead to being offended... dead to being flattered... dead! Paul died to everything!"(found on SI quotes thread) [Edit for clairity, addition: Submitting/yielding, are words that fit how we respond as believers in walking in the Spirit.]

It seems wise to me to enter into, settle the issue of, our death BEFORE seeking whatever is subsequently being sought in "the baptism of the Holy Spirit."

It is "conformed to His death" in Phil. 3:10, a fellowship with Him. Its the application.

Why did Paul only speak to the Corinthians about tongues? I believe that the Corinthians, being in the same area, were being deceived by this spirit

This is absolutely and utterly false. Is it wise to parrot lies? It is a reckless speculation that has absolutely no one-to-one with the scriptures. It suggests that Paul under inspiration of the Holy Spirit could not identify the real problem, but needed some modern exegete to afford Paul and the Holy Spirit their assistance. Was Paul deceived by the πύθων (pythonian) spirit? He identified and cast that spirit out of a woman in Acts 16:16. Paul never identified the problem as πύθων. The Corinthian letter is instructive.

εὐχαριστῶ τῷ θεῷ μου, πάντων ὑμῶν μᾶλλον γλώσσαις λαλῶν (I Cor. 14:18)

Are you suggesting that Paul is here moving in the πύθων πνεῦμα (pythonian spirit)? Paul was not just in the 'area' of Corinth, but traveled all over and wrote the epistle from Ephesus. I have yet to see one legitimate English Translation that would suggest the reading to be any different than, "I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you." (NIV) Did he thank God for being moved by a πύθων πνεῦμα (pythonian spirit). I don't think it wise to attribute the phenomena in Corinth to the devil. This is the type of thing that answers another question on these forums, "What does blasphemy of the Holy Spirit look like." Well, read through these threads. The context of the issue?

But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is when a person recognizes that God is at work, but because of their own personal ambition borne biases, or down right hate, they attribute what they know to be God to the Devil. When done in ignorance there is hope, but when done willfully is very dangerous.

Demonic activity was rife all over the Roman Empire including in Jerusalem where the Pharisees were making children of hell as a matter of course. What spirit were they moving in? They then fled to Yavneh and start Rabbinic Judaism, a dead, legalistic. pretend-to-be-of-God devilry that has locked up the Jews in lies ever since.

The problem at Corinth was their self-centered attitude where they were not holding the head. I have already shown earlier that the letter was written to the Church at large. It is instructive on the right-use of glossa (tongues/languages). To begin drawing one-to-one parallels with phenomena found in the ancient world in the sense of your post is to put many Christian ideas into question. It is a slippery slope once a person uses for their authority these 'scholarly' discoveries. As if we are ignorant of them? They sift young-believers faith, but to they that have an ounce of experience they are not at the mercy of those that brought even a ton of such arguments. For me tongues is not just an academic issue- it is a reality.

Amen Robert.

In answer to the secondary question as to, "Why only in Corinthians?" I would answer that subjects are dealt with in the biblical corpus based upon needs known in the mind of God. The Bible is a unit of revelation that is carefully put together for our instruction. The writers are not giving a historic account of all of the events that took place in the New Testament period, but are a record designed to reveal Jesus Christ, The New Covenant, etc. If a complete record of all of Paul's writings were known we may know that the issue may have been dealt with before. Galatians is an example of what has come to be called, "Galatianism", but again, this issue may have been dealt with far more often than to the churches around Galatia. Shall we discard all the related subjects only dealt with in one book or in one place?

There is also the fact that there are words that are only found in one place in the Biblical Corpus. They are called hapax legomenon. We cannot extrapolate those passages from the scriptures containing those words based on a rule that unless there is plurality of certain Greek or Hebrew words the passage should be called into question. These attitudes towards the Corpus of scripture are akin to those of the higher critics. The historical writings in the Old Testament are a record written for our learning, they are not a record of everything that happened. The volumes would be endless. We have many examples of what 'not' to do, etc. The same is true with the abuses on Corinth. They are written for our instruction and learning. This is why the Bible is unique- it is God's revelation down to the last jot.

No I do not think that Paul operated through a spirit and he also spoke many human languages which he could just as well be referring to.

He is not referring to human languages. He spoke in and sang in glossa by the Spirit. (I Corinthians 14:15) That is not learned language it is Spirit enablement.

I begin to be wary once the fanatical spirit is in evidence, which compels people to react with strong emotional offense just because someone is disagreeing with them over their favoutite doctrine or practise so they can no longer practise politeness or grace and start to insult the person who is offending them even though they are only expressing their beliefs...I do hope we can keep this civil for the sake of other readers, thanks

You can spare me of such talk. You have accused Pentecostals of moving in demonic spirits. Seems to me you would be better suited to answer my points than merely suggest I was 'emotional'. You have misjudged tongues and me.

This issue has been discussed several times over the years. Many have contributed fruitfully to the subject. For those that are really interested in this issue I would recommend doing a search of these forums.

Please communicate in plain English thanks

I will make that commitment if you will commit to share what you believe personally and not utilize resources that are somehow being sent to you to bring into this discussion. Too many internet discussions degenerate into cut and paste sessions that are not helpful. I am not saying it is happening, I am saying that in order to rightly speak to the subject I need to know what you really believe and what your concerns are. If your mind is already made up and you are defending a position I am not really interested in such a conversation. I honestly don't have time to bicker. But if you really want to know I am more than willing to try to help. I am a person like anyone else.

So what I said was true? The thread began degenerate into a cut and paste session? I answered early on as the subject was on John M's teaching. I have dropped in from time to time. When things escalated to tongues being linked to the pythonian spirit (Delphi) I came online. What else was I to do? I have no thirst for debate. As you can see I have answered many posts in these forums and most of them are of reasonable length. One of the reasons why I have been absent for a few years is this type of attacking of the things of God. I simply don't need it in my life. As I recall you did not receive tongues and then assumed it was not of God. If that is the basis of your position then we will not get far. I knew it then and I know it now, but I am still willing to discuss the issues if the desire is genuine and the mind is open. Otherwise I will only appear when necessary and that to defend against such things as I mentioned. I cannot allow those things to go unanswered if noone else will respond.

Guise? That's three accusations in one day.

Brenda, Brenda, Brenda

Robert and others have been honestly trying to help you because they truly love God and fear to ever misrepresent the pure Word of God.

I do not appreciate the way you have spoken to brother Robert and the way you have disrespected him. I only pray that you will be delivered of the spirit that is motivating you to act in the way you are doing.

I have learned to really appreciate people like Robert who handled the Word of God with so much respect and have been given the ability to communicate to others in the way he has demonstrated in his posts to you. You have failed to appreciate the wisdom of God in all his posts. You have also failed to hear others and I have come to believe it is your intention not to hear but only to promote your own agenda.

I pray that you will let God open the eyes of your heart and that His true fear would cause you to repent so that you don’t blaspheme the Holy Ghost in labeling His work (because the scriptures clearly state that it is the Holy Spirit who gives the utterance to speak in tongues) as being of the devil.

May God have mercy on your soul!

The problem is that many are experiencing a `baptism` before they have died as someone else has correctly said, and it is not in the Holy Spirit but another spirit. The teaching must be specifically that death must occur before the baptism and that everything is to be tested to see which spirit it is from.

Brenda, et.al.: As I shared in my testimony, this was the very thing that stood as the greatest hindrance to my receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit, the belief that I should somehow have to reach an arbitrary level of holiness before I qualified to receive the free gift of the Holy Spirit. You called it death to sin, self, and the world. The first already happened when you were born again. In the spirit we are dead to sin and alive unto God, and we are to reckon ourselves dead indeed to sin, and alive unto God. I think what you are describing might better be termed being dead to self or to the flesh. It was the empowerment of the abiding presence of the Holy Spirit that has given me an ability to die to self that I never had prior to receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit. If one is waiting until he is "dead to the flesh" in totality, one will never receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit. You need the Holy Spirit to give you power to crucify the flesh. Romans 15:16.

As to receiving a false spirit, it is almost as if some have the notion that there are two spirits floating around out there somewhere waiting for an opening to invade, and that without the correct filter in place, the wrong one will get through. This is very odd, and I believe very erroneous picture indeed. Jesus Christ Himself is the baptizer in the Holy Spirit. If I am His, if I have been born again, He will fill me, baptize me, in the Holy Spirit if I will simply ask and receive. If I am His and if He baptizes me in the Holy Spirit, how will He give me something false? Receiving the Holy Spirit is not like opening oneself up to some spiritual influence, it is being baptized in, saturated with, indwelt by the same Holy Spirit of God that raised Christ from the dead. Only born again men and women can be filled with the Holy Spirit. It is Jesus who does the filling. The only instances I see of demonic spirits entering people in the new testament were people who were not born again and rebelling against God.

As to fleshly manifestation there are many things that can be said. Some people put on a show but do not truly possess anything real. This is sad, but does not invalidate the real any more than counterfeit money invalidates real currency. There are people who do supernatural things under the influence of demonic spirits. But a man filled with the Holy Spirit has no fear or confusion with this. His spirit, in communion and fellowship with the Holy Spirit, will discern that the spirit in question is not of God. Greater is He that is in us than He that is in the world. No worries here! Some people get caught up in emotion. Lets face it, we are fallen people and that applies to our emotions as well. I think this is why we need good teaching and discipleship in the body. None of this, however, discredits the true.

Another issue at play here is our human tendency to loyalty without reason. An example would be peoples tendency to brand loyalty when shopping. They may have no proof that brand X is any better than brand Y, but will always purchase brand X at the store and say, "It is the best." When faced with empirical evidence that brand Y is actually better, they often become visibly upset and go through a crisis of sorts in dealing with this truth.

Really, it is much the same with our acceptance of and loyalty to the doctrines of man. What Brenda has gone through in coming from Calvanism is an example. I am sure there were some crises that arose in her heart and mind in this process. There were things that she had to abandon that were difficult to release and were finally lain down only after much prayer and wrestling with her own heart and mind on the matter. Ultimately, when the issue was settled, the crisis was over. I think all of us have been there. Like it or not, we are a product of our teachers and of our experiences. One who had seen abuses among pentecostals and who has been taught by people they respect and admire the cessationalist viewpoint will, because of teaching and experience, feel very strongly about that point of view and will seek to defend it. Their interpretation of scripture will be colored by their belief, rather than the other way around.

One real example of this is the term baptism itself found in the KJV. The greek word is baptizo and means to repeatedly dip or to submerge. But at the time, the prevalent teaching in the church was to sprinkle, not to immerse. So instead of saying, for example, that John immersed Jesus the translators coined a new English word from the greek that had no definite meaning. This allowed them to continue sprinkling without scriptural opposition. Now I don't have any problem with baptizing with a bucket poured over the head if that is all that is available, but the point is that a predetermined belief colored the translation. We are capable of no less.

We must make a decision to take the Word as it comes to us and allow our own opinions to be totally conformable to the Word of God. This is hard, hard, hard to do. When our beliefs are challenged, the natural human tendency is to rise up and defend our turf so to speak. It is part of the fallen flesh that must also be put do death by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Just some thoughts on the topic, and related to how we deal with the topic.

Brenda, regardless of whether you ever see eye to eye with me, Frank, or anyone else, you remain our sister in Christ. I can tell you that this issue of tongues is forever settled in my heart, first because it is the clearest and most straight forward reading of the Word of God and second because I have experienced what was experienced on the day of pentecost by the 120 and by countless men and women of God since that time. I have experienced the great benefit that speaking in tongues has in the life of a believer. It is truly not what the baptism of the Holy Spirit is all about, but I am thankful that it is a valid part of the experience.

I have not addressed this portion of the discussion, but historical narrative by people who were there says that tongues of fire leaped from the top of the building in the early day at Azusa Street, as well as a heavy cloud like a fog occasionally appeared in the building during meetings. I would say that tongues are specifically mentioned later as a gift of the Spirit while tongues of fire are not. So in that light, one probably would not expect tongues of fire as one would expect speaking in tongues. So, I don't think one can argue that if one continued the other ought also.

"...this type of attacking of the things of God."

Praise God that He has given strong gifts to we that are otherwise weak and that He knows exactly what we need( 1Co 12:24).

When I first spake in tounges I knew nothing about the Bible except that I had recently read the New Testament and understood enough to know that I needed Jesus and wanted to follow Him and that the Book had become open to me.

In the weeks that followed He showed me many mighty things and though I was weak, untempered and undisciplined, He used me much also.

Praise God that He uses foolish things to confound the wise.

O may I be foolish again, but mighty with God.

ChrisJD: That is the power of the Holy Spirit brother. Praise God.

I wonder and pray that this post is of some good use. I am one of the hundreds that have only read along this thread with interest. Until last night. I was impressed with the maturity of Spirit, even sweetness, that I experienced as genuine, in which this thread progressed. I have copied a link to this thread for the biblical references.

Should it matter, late last night, I am the one who pm-ed Krautfrau with a reference about the Delphi oracle. I had never taken note that the disruptive/confusion of speaking in tongues without interpretation only got addressed in a letter to the Corinthians to the extent of being addressed in a letter.

Several weeks ago my brother (in both senses) came up stairs to tell me what he happened to find in a secular dictionary about the close proximity of Delphi to Corinth. He said,“Maybe that's one reason there was such a problem in Corinth.” Reading someones question on the thread last night, “Why only in Corinth,” I recalled his discovery. He was not yet asleep and located one of the references. The print was so tiny I greatly truncated the notes I scribbled out and still got an eye-ache that stopped my reading. Sorry.

So, if there was a fault in that showing up in the discussion, a rule not to cut-paste references, or anything, it is mine. Please forgive me.

I still don't know the distance between the cities (how close? Close enough to draw gentile/idol worshipers in? How big a stir DID the early church there make in the local area? People travel these days when there is a religious stir.) In very brief reflection, I thought maybe so. This is a MAYBE SO, in part, explanation. It would be true to form (likely) that Satan planted tares in early congregations. We all know the MANY things that were going on there. We are all in the habit of being sensitive to making application to our lives out of the Word of God. Think of the sermons we've all heard on “The Corinthian Church.” Isn't that where the phrase CARNAL CHRISTIAN comes from? I recall hearing that phrase for years as referring to babies that should be grown more. More recently though, I think Paul Washer among many others refers to CARNAL CHRISTIAN as not even Christians, false converts or deluded in thinking they are born again.

All of these words here are “the argument of 'men'”: interesting to consider, possibly irrelevant, and not the direct Word of God. I am sure we all noticed the moments in various arguments when one poster used a similar but different term when making an opposing argument/point.“ The perils of “the argument of men.”

Is there anyone posting here who has not grown since their new birth? (NO) Anyone with no more need to grow? (NO) Is Washer risking the unpardonable sin, blaspheming the Holy Spirit when he says one claiming to be indwelt by the Holy Spirit is not, possibly call the work of the Holy Spirit, the work (of what), of the flesh? Praise God it becomes increasingly impossible to offend the growing child of God. (Ravinhill rephrase.)

Anyway, I thank God we all take the things of God, His Word, so seriously. Really! And we all know how He adjusts our perspective of Him and ourselves so lovingly. I cannot seem to get away from being filled with the love of His body here. ….. Turning in early tonight.

Made for His pleasure
Joan M

P.S. God is so sweet to me. It being Pentecost Sunday this Sunday, and other things, a pair of quotes/sayings I offered for a reader-board was posted: "It looks like its revival, or ruin, ....or the rapture." AND "The reason we don't miss revival is that we have never been in one." My brother just came home and shared a wonderful revival conversation he had with strangers in a house church who said they loved the recent reader-boards. Fells like a goodnight kiss of encouragement.

Wow, thank you so much Brenda for that last post. I actually had contemplated asking why it was that you posted here, and was praying for you and lo and behold you answered the exact question I was wondering about. I feel bad now that I have not yet directly addressed you. My name is Jeremiah and I live on the west coast of America, I have been to Germany before and have a couple believing friends whom live in Stuutgart that I visited there once. I have a tendency to speak in generalities, because to be honest I have seen so much argumentation between believers on forums and I am always worried about its outcome because of Galatians five where it warns that there are those involved in strife, wrath, emulations, and a few other divisive behaviors who will not inherit the kingdom of God. So up till this thread, since I have started paying attention to this forum, I very purposely stay out of the debates, because I really want to be an encouragement.

Honesty with one another and being clear with our intentions is so important. We are told in the word to endeavor to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bonds of peace and your post...is doing exactly that. Thank you so much sister.

One thing that has come to mind in this discussion for your consideration is the story of the blind man, whom the pharisee's questioned and even brought his parents in to verify if he had been truly once blind or not. When the blind man was questioned about the veracity of his claims, his response had absolutely not a single scintilla of "Doctrinal" weight behind it. His only response was, "All I know is I was once blind but now I see." So we can see that his interaction with the Messiah was purely experiential and not based on intellectual ascent.

I suspect to a certain degree it can be the same experience for one who speaks in tongues. "All I know is I was once mute, but now I speak." Although for me this topic, while circulating around tongues, I don't really see tongues as the issue as much as it is actually being discussed. Like you said there is a dichotomy of views about the Nature of the operation of the Spirit in the life of a believer. Tongues is only the surface at which that understanding is clashing.

You are absolutely right to note that the baptism of the Spirit has absolutely nothing to do with a level of holiness whatsoever because look how it all happened with Cornelius. Acts 10:44-48.

I want to use Calvinism as a metaphor...but alas, I refuse to touch that topic on a forum with a ten foot pole.

I too greatly appreciate how little mud has been slung here. It is a sign of maturity. It is no problem to discuss doctrine to the edification of one another. It becomes wrong when we take another persons view, and spatter them with anger and vitriol because they don't see things our way.

We have to remember that we will experience "winds of doctrine," until we completely grow up into him who is the head.

My greatest fear in life as a Christian is becoming a Theological Pharisee. We need salvation from this. And the compassion of Christ to deal with it all I think.

I also wanted to point out that there was a youtube video I watched where a small revival broke out in Alaska and the people began speaking in tongues and they claimed that there was the sound of a jet of fire rushing through the congregation and the entire town burned all of the things that were causing them as a people to live in sin. You can actually here on the recording the sound of the jet over the speaking in tongues. It was interesting I thought.

For the record my exposure to the "pentecostal" or "charismatic" movement is almost null and void even though my "non-denomination" is considered pentecostal to a degree in tradition.

I have never once spoken in tongues in public in front of anyone in my entire life with the exception of the one person who prayed for me to receive the baptism by the laying on of hands.

Yet I speak in tongues on a constant basis in my own personal prayer time when I become frustrated with not knowing what to pray. When I am at the end of my mental rope, and have exhausted myself in intercession for others or in praise, there remains a burning desire to pray to God, but I don't know what to say, and that is almost always where tongues comes into the picture for me. And me writing this is the first time I have ever talked about it to anyone. With maybe the exception of my wife.

Think of the sermons we've all heard on “The Corinthian Church.” Isn't that where the phrase CARNAL CHRISTIAN comes from? I recall hearing that phrase for years as referring to babies that should be grown more. More recently though, I think Paul Washer among many others refers to CARNAL CHRISTIAN as not even Christians, false converts or deluded in thinking they are born again.

Joan: It is interesting that just before Paul calls the believers at Corinth "carnal" he refers to them as "sanctified". Thus it is possible, at least in Paul's viewpoint, that a sanctified believer can be carnal. Carnal, by the way, does not mean unrighteous or sinful. It simply means operating out of the flesh rather than out of the spirit. It is the origin of the word carne in the Spanish language which simply means flesh or meat. If I, as a Spirit filled believer, get upset during this discussion and speak harshly out of emotion toward someone, I have not lost my salvation, but have operated carnally, out of my flesh. I need to correct the situation, which is what Paul sought to do. So I don't believe the issue Paul was dealing with was the work of some evil spirit in the Corinthian church. These were born again, sanctified people who were operating out of the flesh rather than the Spirit.

I am sorry you were offended by the way I spoke to Robert, and I agree with you about the value of his contributions elsewhere. However I felt that he was not attempting a serious engagment on this subject, by his own admission he had not kept up with it, and I did not like the way he was attempting to put me down. It was not, I felt in line with the previous respect that has been displayed here between each party.

In other words if one don't agree with Brenda they are putting her down, but Brenda can demonize the church at Corinth, Pentecostals, and Charismatics; Christians that number in the hundreds of millions in this world and they are supposed to sit there and take it? Who do you think you are anyway?

I do not have an agenda apart from wanting to know the truth and I am not attacking others by stating my belief that tongues are demonic, in fact you are implying the same regarding me - that what I considered the baptism of the Spirit, was a deception and therefore demonic too..

How can this be true when one of your arguments is based on the people at Corinth being deceived by the Delphi Oracle?

Phantheus's: After this post, you must be left to your own devices. At this point, the best response towrds you is silence.

This is exactly why these forums do not have the richness we once experienced. Many that could speak into these forums with wisdom and insight have abandoned them. But it is hard to even take these conversations seriously when the type of highhanded nonsense I have read in this thread. This is the type of thing that creates schism and division in the Body of Christ.

This is Paul's testimony under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit:

I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying. (I Corinthians 14:5 KJV)

For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified. I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: (1Corinthians 14:17-18 KJV)

Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. Let all things be done decently and in order. (1Corinthians 14:39-40 KJV)

What is your testimony?

This is exactly why these forums do not have the richness we once experienced. Many that could speak into these forums with wisdom and insight have abandoned them. But it is hard to even take these conversations seriously when the type of highhanded nonsense I have read in this thread. This is the type of thing that creates schism and division in the Body of Christ.

This is not just symptomatic here Robert.

I see all over the place, anywhere online where "Christians" are interacting in an online world. The quickness and willingness that "believers" will decide to write another person off is absolutely staggering. I used to play MMO's before God convicted me of it, and the supreme level of immaturity and bridge burning people have in the online video gaming world is almost no different. There is something much bigger going on here.

The love of many is growing cold because of abounding iniquity.

Where are the believers who are bearing other people's burdens? When another brother or sister is wrong about something, to what degree will you pray for that person? If you don't and just write them off, maybe consider the possibility that fervent hot love, is growing pasty and lukewarm.

This is not a plea whatsoever to be loose with the truth. Be hardcore, be as resolute to defend the faith. But "Defending the Faith," must also have contained within its tool bag all that the faith contains, and we know that faith works through love.

Phan, bro, you can go silent, but you don't have to state that you are going to. The stating of it draws a line in the sand, that may not really need to be there brother.

We need to learn rather, in these last days, to strengthen what remains. When we find other believers, our interaction and response toward them should always be to stir up the giftings in them. We should never presume that just because someone has a hard time understanding something that they are deserving of dust shaking. Rather, we ought to be long-suffering just like our Lord is. I cannot imagine where I would be as a Christian if Jesus Christ had just written me off in my times of weakness and error. I would probably be in Hell. Patience, brotherly kindness, excellence, virtue, charity...these things make your faith and knowledge in Christ fruitful.

I have followed this thread from the start, but not added since the early part because I could see the way it was likely to go and I am not that surprised at all how it has progressed.

What I will say may seem stern or unwelcome to some, but I only mean to speak what I believe is true and not to have any other motive, so here goes.....

The reason this discussion is not going anywhere and has ended up becoming personal is because it has stepped out of God's clear order for men and women. This debate is being focused around a woman (Brenda) who thinks it is her place to teach doctrinal truth and expound the sciptures to men, even correcting their understanding of the biblical text! The word of God says women are NOT permitted to teach or have authority over a man. 1 Timothy 2:12.

Now don't get me wrong, I DO think the women should and can be part of a healthy discussion, sharing their views, questioning and even disagreeing, but there is a line NOT to be crosssed, which I think is taking an authoritive teaching position on doctrinal issues. This is the line that has been clearly crosssed here!

This is my position and I believe it needs to be said. I don't want to debate this, but leave it with you to consider.

Again, for those that are interested there are some wonderful archived threads on this subject here on sermonindex. I would encourage a google search to look through some of them. They are very good conversations that balance the positions without the ad hominem abuse of demonizing. I found a few here:

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?forum=40&topic_id=3110&post_id=20471&viewmode=thread&order=1#20471

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=118&forum=36&post_id=

Alreadymind, I agree with your spirit of consolation in your post but brother don’t you also see that Brenda has only now condescended just a little to open up a little about her experience but only with a subtle twist in her writings toward others.

Do you not see even in her somewhat apologies she is still twisting things to her way?

Can’t you also see what Robert brought out about the part in her post directed toward me and Robert? How can anyone not see it and I can have patience with her and pray for her but I just don’t have the time to keep writing on here to someone who refuses to deal with the subject at hand in a most biblical way.

Robert brought three scriptures out in an earlier post concerning tongues and there are at least 3 other known places in the book of Acts where people spoke in tongues. Now let us stay with the bible and God forbid that we would call what the Holy Spirit of God has done and still does demonic.

This is not a question about whether demons can speak in different languages, which we know they can, this is about saying that the tongues that the Holy Spirit gives is of the devil and that is on the borderline of blasphemy.

Brenda, if you care to answer, what does the bible say about tongues? You are a smart intelligent lady. You can use a concordance, so show us every place in the bible where tongues are used. Where in the scriptures can you find any place that the Holy Spirit comes on anyone and they speak in tongues that they are to question it or even dare to call it demonic? The bible says not to get in danger of blaspheming the Holy Ghost because there is no forgiveness in this life or the next to those who end up doing it.

I will have to check your reply later because I have things to do and time needs to be redeemed to get it all done. If you don’t care to honestly look at the scriptures and reply from there I have no interest to dialog with you concerning unbiblical teaching. You will leave me with no other choice at the time but to only reject replying to you any more as I could only assume you are bent on being heretical.

Blessings to all!

The reason this discussion is not going anywhere and has ended up becoming personal is because it has stepped out of God's clear order for men and women. This debate is being focused around a woman (Brenda) who thinks it is her place to teach doctrinal truth and expound the sciptures to men, even correcting their understanding of the biblical text! The word of God says women are NOT permitted to teach or have authority over a man. 1 Timothy 2:12. Now don't get me wrong, I DO think the women should and can be part of a healthy discussion, sharing their views, questioning and even disagreeing, but there is a line NOT to be crosssed, which I think is taking an authoritive teaching position on doctrinal issues. This is the line that has been clearly crosssed here! This is my position and I believe it needs to be said. I don't want to debate this, but leave it with you to consider.

This is something that should be considered.

God Bless
mj

Yes, I believe she is absolutely 100% wrong. Calling tongues demonic is absolutely dangerous ground. Yes I believe and agree as stated that it is wrong for a woman to teach a man. Yes I completely think she has twisted the scriptures and has not reckoned what has been taught but rather relies on her experience and own understanding, as I also think that anyone, John Macarthur included, whom believes a cessationist view is on very dangerous ground.
And yes I agree that there is twisting going on rbanks.

Yet on the other hand, I can't help thinking that there is something else going on. We Americans are reaping the full whirlwind of protestantism and its totally rebellious Spirit. As Americans, we have more divisions between us than ANY other "church" culture anywhere in the world. Whom is willing to bridge those gaps? Whom is willing to be the dutchboy for everyone else? I find it rather compelling that about a month or two ago I posted James chapter four and said that this is what revival is all about, and not a single person responded.

James says that our warring with one another is because of our lusts, and because of that he calls us adulterers. The true issue then when technical conflict arises indicates to me that division has more to do with a greater spiritual problem than the technicalities of secondarily important doctrines. And no I am not being ecumenical. I hate that spirit. I am just attempting to consider others better than myself if at all possible.

That is why I keep trying to emphasize that the specificity of debate over tongues is NOT the real issue here. Brenda is not denying the gospel of Jesus Christ in any way.

We can continue as Americans to go down that twisty path that Martin Luther started, which was very necessary in some ways, but was a double edged sword in other ways. Or...we can heed James advice. Howl...Mourn...let our heads be as waters because of the adulterous divisions between us. It is no wonder judgment begins in the house of the Lord. It is no wonder we as Americans have the most rebellious children in the universe.

The irony here is we are talking so much about Corinthians, and even the issue of their carnality has been brought into this discussion. And what everyone fails to recognize is that the term "Carnality" as Paul uses it in context has to do with their divisions over who is a better preacher. The reason why Paul Washer says there is no such thing as a carnal Christian is because the term "Carnal" has come to mean something in our vernacular that it did not mean in the context in which Paul used it. To be carnally minded, is to not be spiritually minded, and that is where I see so many divisions on forums. Ye are yet carnally minded, and not yet spiritually minded. Which I see as a process of sanctification. Spiritual mindedness does not occur overnight for anyone. It is a practice of being faithful to listen and yield to the Spirit's call to be faithful in little things, time and time again. Which then grows us into reproductive maturity where our ability to exhort and admonish others has Godly authority rather than carnal technical authority.

The question I have for so many people out there on the internet today who, by their words, indicate that they are self proclaimed protectors and apologists for truth. Has the body of Christ laid hands on you and recognized that this is the calling of Christ on your life? Or is it self-motivated?

Now I know that I am new around here, and am fully aware that I must endeavor to earn all of the more experienced peoples respect and trust because how could any of us possibly even really know one another? But one thing I do notice, is the irony of the same spirit of Corinthian division is very common here. At least since I started joining in on the threads. The funny thing is, in this thread, with a Corinthian spirit we are debating a doctrine the Corinthians struggled with...the irony is almost to rich for me to digest. I think I might need a gall bladder replacement.

Wow Everest, I admit I have never really paid attn. to that verse before. I will have to think about that, look it up, context it, and try to digest its implications. Thank you for that brother.

Maybe Watchman Nee was right when he said that the best application of doctrine follows experience. I was repulsed by such a suggestion at first, but have been considering the idea for a few weeks now. (I know that is a can of worms and a possible derailing of the conversation.) Yet I am starting to see a degree of merit to such thinking.

Hello all, there are some good here in this thread worthy of pondering. But my "experience" says this is in the "zone" of becoming personal. I have been wrong before, but just wanted to say and encourage those entering any posts to consider and prayerfully decide wheter their post is upbuilding for the body or just right down personal "i will win this debate".

I encourage to speak about scriptures and test and see and search and discuss them. But i am afraid it will go off the tracks soon. So all kindly take this in consideration.

brother christian

Brother Christian, I thank you for your exhortation. It has been at least my intention to bring reconciliation if at all possible, but if you feel that I am in any way approaching the ceiling you are mentioning please let me know personally and I will very quickly respond to a personal exhortation, by bowing out. Not as a means of rejecting others, but as a means of rejecting myself.

brother, i am not pointing any finger at you specificly. I just know from the past it is easy when its a topic we are passionate about, it slides through our fingers a bit (still not speaking about you).

So do continue to speak if we an do so in a right way. Growing in the Lord meens in all areas, as we are challenged and how we rule our tongue. To bow out is sometimes what the Lord would have us do, other times it may be to overcome things we may have failed in the past, like getting personal in discussions, accusations etc.

so by prayerfully discern what you should do, you should be able to do what is right. Still not pointing at anyone specific, but from my experience it "feels" it might soon be a thread that we would lock. But i hate that and when some brothers and sisters shared much good things worthy of reading i want to give a heads up. God bless you all

Being a woman, I have a difficulty in posting this. I have no interest to teach men, do not desire to sin, offend others, or introduce another subject side tracking the subject of this thread. All I can think to say is that this is to the women who are reading this.

SOME SUGGESTIONS that may be helpful:

1. To those that may have been offended, or may have taken offense, or may have been taken in an offense: enter into the fellowship of His suffering (Phil. 3:10). Maybe even count it all Joy.

2. To those that have PICKED UP THE OFFENCE OF ANOTHER: Drop it. I find no scriptural help for you, except to recognize that has occurred and see what results from that. Matthew 5: 23-24 is the Word of God help when you see a brother has something against you (YOU are the occasion of their injury). Mark 11:25 is the scriptural help FOR YOU when someone has sinned against you. So far there are ONLY TWO people involved here. WHEN A THIRD INDIVIDUAL enters into this, a road to divisions opens up and Satan grins wide (fights, gossip, bitterness, etc.). Please think about this. When God breaks through to the TWO and forgiveness and reconciliation flows, the THIRD who was not sinned against (picked up the offense of the other) can be stuck.

3. To those that have a testimony that speaking/praying in tongues is edifying for them: do that and be edified.

4. To those that are cleansed/edified by confessing sins: examine yourself and do that.

5. Galatians 6:1 can be of help in a face to face fellowship. Notice it is also a test as to whether of not YOU are spiritual (have fruit of restoration of the one you go to).

_____________________________

Hmmhmm

I hear and understand what you are saying. I humbly plead for the continuation of this thread. (Luke 13:8). I have befitted from what has already been posted, so if it closes, I will be grateful for that.

I have wondered if we should have an ADDITIONAL standard post for moderators to insert into some threads that could harm new members/readers, like a standard exhortation:

NOTICE TO THOSE NEW ON SERMONINDEX: If you notice less than Christ-like behavior here, so do others. Over time, posters on this site grow in Christ and behave differently. This site can be a wonderful place to practice how to behave in the body of Christ and be corrected by the Holy Spirit – all without damaging people in your local fellowship. As you read this thread, notice what is fruitful behavior/words and what is not. Pray for those in difficulty and yourself before you post. In worst case scenarios we [moderators] lock threads or ban individual posters that have been warned privately.

___________________________________________

Areadymind

FIRST

I find it rather compelling that about a month or two ago I posted James chapter four and said that this is what revival is all about, and not a single person responded.

Bless your heart brother! I did not see that post. I have seen a congregation be cleansed by that chapter (particularly 1-12).

SECOND

That is why I keep trying to emphasize that the specificity of debate over tongues is NOT the real issue here. Brenda is not denying the gospel of Jesus Christ in any way.

I am sure you heard/read the same thing from Brenda. One unique aspect of a forum is that 20 can respond to one post, and that avalanche can become a problem. I am in awe of her response to just that. At one point, I thought of suggesting just a few be identified as appropriate to continue the conversation. You and Twayneb came recently to mind due to your views and most particularly Spirit. I trust you two would not be puffed up by my suggesting you, because surly you are both aware of your shortcomings. [Humor: We could send you pms if you need help there. :D]

OK – This is too hard for me. Time and the multiple issues. I really would like the bigger issue to be discussed. And I heard a Sister ask for help with a difficulty I would like to better understand and assist in, in some way.

P.S. When I brought up Corinthian CARNAL CHRISTIANS, I too thought that every (nearly every) fellowship is in that state, not to mention this membership. I laughed with agreement at this side-thought and soberly considered my behavior in the body.

P.P.S. Long posts: I dislike them. How can anyone stand to read all this. Yet I confess I have carefully read every post here. Some two or three times.

Hi everyone,

Joan had mentioned 'The perils of “the argument of men.”'.

This and the mention about being pure made me think about how increasingly I have become skeptical about people's testimony about themselves. I don't mean that in the sense of someone relating an experience or facts as they recall them. I mean this in the sense of testimony as to "what we are". Or in relation to Joan's 'perils of the argument of men', what those facts should mean.

I've become convinced that it is not our conception or comprehension of ourselves that matters or that is even most times worthy to even mention. But it is God's. It is God that both can accurately tell what we are(for every creature is naked before Him), and perhaps equally important, it is God that can tell others, if need be.

It is God that can testify to men about others, if He so chooses. This was the central point of conflict between Christ and the religous Jews that opposed Him. John bore witness of Christ, and if his baptisim(authority to) was from Heaven, why did they not believe him?

Read through the record of John's Gospel with this in mind and you will see that this issue is one of the central points of conflict.

It was God that said of Christ, that He was His beloved Son, in Whom He was well pleased.

And that, in relation to the issue of our being pure, brought to mind a passage from the book of Job. I looked it up this morning, and though I did not find exactly what I had recollected in my mind, what I did find seemed even more appropriate. It comes from a speech of Eliphaz, where he says,

"Behold, he putteth no trust in his saints; yea, the heavens are not clean in his sight."

Saints there means the angels.

Now, I realise that we might not take everything that the friends of Job say as being right or sound, but I think this statement is worthy of taking as such.

Welsey says in part in his comments on this passage:

"The angels that dwell in heaven; heaven being put for its inhabitants. None of these are pure, simply and perfectly, and comparatively to God. The angels are pure from corruption, but not from imperfection."

And if the angels(which do behold the face of God) are not free from imperfection as it relates in comparison to God, how much more so we who are yet in these clay jars?

There has only ever been One that has had ALL of the perfections of God, Who could say, when you have seen Me, you have seen the Father.

I've come to a conception of this in how it relates to us by an illustration from the garden and creation.

We were made in the image of God, and being such, we are 'an' image of Him. But we are not 'the' image - 'the' image of God is Christ.

And how this relates to us, and our relative imperfections, and I think also then to this discussion, I concieve of with an illustration of a bridge.

Just as 'an' image of a bridge cannot hold the actual weight of the cars that can pass across it, so to we, being only 'an' image of God, and not His substance, not His reality, we also cannot hold the full weight of Divine Glory. This was so in the garden, when being put to bear that weight through the test of the fruit and the serpent, we failed, and it is so also now, whenever we do anything being under some test or pressure, and we sin - for that is the essence of sin, to fall short of the glory of God.

And coming back to this passage from the speech of Eliphaz I think it especially relates here and to this issue of our relative imperfection. And of the testimony of God as to what we are.

It is fire that reveals the true nature of something. Job had the testimony of God, that he was one that shunned evil, but was Job perfect? Was he a full and adaquate expresion of the very image of God?

Not so, and the fire of his trials would reveal it to be so, yet he said he knew that God knew the way he took, and that when he had come through, he would come through as gold. Yet even gold has levels of purity and imperfection.

And when Job, who was not 'the image' of God, saw God Himself, he said,

"I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee. Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes."

Fire and trials will reveal what we are.

So Paul does not say, that we have been changed into the image of Christ, but that we shall be, and that we, beholding the glory of the LORD, are being changed, what?

From glory to glory.

One of the things that I have appreicated so much about the messages from Pastor Wurmbrand was that, in my mind, here was a man who I could listen to, whose faith and message and testimonies - had been tried.

I'm not very much interested in listening to the message of a man who has not been very much tried.

One thing that has stood out to me also in listening to that Pastor, was that I never recall him speaking very much if ever about his own qualities of charachteristics of godliness(though I have read from others how much he exuded the love of God) except to say of himself that he was a weak and insignificant sinner, or to magnify and praise the lovelyness of other Christians who he had known, either from history or in the underground Church.

And if I could relate this all here, tongues and otehr gifts are surely needfull as much as they are described by Paul as being for this purpose: to build up the believer. And to build up others.

Surely, yeah, surely, we all have need of gifts, to help us in being built up, while we are being built up into the very image of God.

The Image of Christ, The LORD.

Ok, I hadn't read Joan's post before I posted this; I took it off because I didn't want it to be more dividing.

God bless us all!!!

JoanM: I agree with your analysis of Brenda's importunity and genuine interest in everyone's veiwpoint on this thread. I would not have time to read and respond thoughtfully to every comment. I think threads such as this are very beneficial to many, but only insofar as we can maintain the love of Christ and crucify our flesh as far as our opinion is concerned. Even my right to be right must be in submission to Him.As long as we still have substantive things to say, I would also like to let it roll. The point is truly to build one another up and to bring ourselves into maturity where the Word of God and the things of God are concerned. But it will always be archived along with other good discussion on the topic. And if not, We still have the Word of God. I hear there are some pretty good things in there as well:-). God bless you sister.

Brenda: One thing I discern from your posts, you are hungry for God, for the real God, not just a man's idea about God. You desire the truth about the issue of speaking in tongues specifically. I know you have been bombarded by all sorts of arguments, which is, I guess, par for the course in an open forum. It is a lot like sitting in Starbucks and having a conversaion...with every customer all at once. I do pray that you will consider the things shared. God bless you as well sister.

Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Joh 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Who sends the Comforter and why?

Jesus Christ sends the Comforter by and through the Father.

Only one reason, to bring to the Body of Christ all that Jesus is, was and will be to His Church upon this Rock; That Jesus Christ is the Son of God and by Jesus are all that the Father has given Him saved.

This is the One Spirit we are all baptized into at our new birth. We don't get parts and peaces of the Spirit of Christ and the Holy Spirit and even the Father who through and with His Son make their abode with us, ONE SPIRIT, plane and simple. We don't have to ask for this, it is God who goes into the world and hires laborers for His Vineyard, Who all get the same benifit from His hireing, One Salvation, One Baptism through One God The Three in One who is all and in all.

Now Spiritual gifts; 1 Corinthians 12:1-3 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant. Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led. Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

This is the first and most important gift; "Jesus is Lord".

Sign gifts, distributed by the will of God. Not by man in any way, except, desire the greater gifts.

Only God gives gifts and only the Holy Spirit distrubutes them as He see's fit.

1 Corinthians 12:11-13 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as ((((he will.)))) For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

Matthew 20:1-16 For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard. And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard. And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace, And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way. Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise. And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle? They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive. So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first. And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny. But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny. And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house, Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day. But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny? Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee. Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good? So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

There is a better way than gifts; 1 Corinthians 12:28-31 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

"Covet earnstly"; Strong's Greek Dictionary
2206. zeloo
Search for G2206 in KJVSL
zhlow zeloo dzay-lo'-o
from 2205; to have warmth of feeling for or against:--affect, covet (earnestly), (have) desire, (move with) envy, be jealous over, (be) zealous(-ly affect).

Not Ask.

The better way than gifts; What is the first thing to do without? 1 Corinthians 13:1-2 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

The Love of God that surpasses all understanding, which is Brendas', mine and all who are here.

In Christ: Phillip

The Gift of Tongues and That Which Is Perfect

If there are prophecies, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; or knowledge, it will be done away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part; but when that which is perfect comes, that which is in part will be done away. When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. For now we see in a mirror, in an enigma, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I shall fully know just as I am fully known.
(I Cor. 13:8-12)

That Which Is Perfect

In the passage quoted above, the Apostle Paul taught that at the coming of "that which is perfect," three things were to happen: "Prophecies" would be abolished, "knowledge" (supernaturally revealed knowledge) would be abolished, and "tongues" (supernaturally acquired speaking of languages) would cease. "Prophecies,: "knowledge," and "tongues" were things that were "in part," incomplete or imperfect. Paul compared having them to still being a child and to looking through a mirror dimly instead of "face to face, and the doing away of those things as the coming of maturity (perfection).

Based on Paul's words in this passage, the only question as to whether or not the gift of "tongues" exists today as it did in Bible times is a question of timing: Has "that which is perfect" come?" If it has, then tongues have ceased. But if "that which is perfect" has not yet come, then tongues have not ceased and God has meant for tongues to continue on throughout the centuries as a normal practice in the Church up to our present day.

First, to determine whether or not "that which is perfect" has come we must determine exactly what "that which is perfect" is. The Greek word for "perfect" here is telios, and it means "complete," "full grown" or "mature." It refers to something that has been brought to its end or goal. Paul was looking forward to a coming maturity or completeness.

There are two other places in the New Testament that speak of that perfection to which Paul and the 1st-century Church were hoping to attain. From those two passages and their contexts we will be able to determine exactly what "that which is perfect" was to be, and also when it was to come. The two references are Eph. 4:13 and Heb. 9:11. Let us first look at Eph. 4:13:

Ephesians 4:13
The Perfect Man, The Temple of God

...until we all may come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a full-grown [TELIOS] man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ...."

Here we see that "that which is perfect" was to be the full-grown Body of Christ, the mature Church." God was building up Christ's Body, the Church, through the gifts of the Holy Spirit to the end that the Church would grow up in Christ-likeness unto the mature or perfect (telios) Man (Eph. 4:11-13).

And Eph. 2:21 teaches us exactly what this final perfection of the Body of Christ was to mean:" When the Church finally reached maturity or perfection through the gifts of the Holy Spirit, it was to become God's Temple." Through the gifts of the Holy Spirit, the Church was "being built together into a Dwelling-place of God in the Spirit" (Eph. 2:22)." The Apostle Peter also referred to that future perfection when he wrote, "...you also as living stones are being built a spiritual house...." (I Peter 2:25)

That which is perfect" then was to come by means of the Holy Spirit and was to be the consummation of the work of the Holy Spirit." The gifts of the Holy Spirit were given to the end that the Body of Christ (the Church) would eventually become the perfect (telios) Dwelling/Temple/Tabernacle of God.

Now according to the Bible, when exactly in history was the work of the Holy Spirit in perfecting the Body of Christ to be consummated or finished so that the perfect Temple of God would be come in its fullness bringing about the cessation of tongues?" To answer this, let's look at the final New Testament reference to the coming of "that which is perfect."

Hebrews 9:11
The Perfect Tabernacle and the Imperfect Tabernacle

But Christ having appeared as a High Priest of the coming good things, through the greater and more perfect (TELIOS) Tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation....

The "more perfect Tabernacle" here is that heavenly "Temple" or "Dwelling" unto which the Church was growing through the power of the Holy Spirit in Eph. 2:21,22." It corresponds to the heavenly "building," "house" and "home" with which the Church was expecting to be clothed in II Cor. 5:1,2,6; it is the "Abode" which the Father and the Son were going to make within believers (Jn. 14:23); it is the promised "Tabernacle of God among men" which the Church was anxiously awaiting (Rev. 21:3; 22:7,10,12,20)." It was to be the formation of Christ in the Church which Paul was eagerly expecting in Gal. 4:19." It was to be the realization of the first-century Church's hope of glory: "Christ in you" (Col. 1:27)." In very truth, it is that Kingdom which Jesus said is "within you" (Lk. 17:21).

When the book of Hebrews was written (c. A.D. 66), the saints knew that the Way into the heavenly, telios Tabernacle or Sanctuary (the face-to-Face Presence of God) had not yet been manifest to all the saints (cf. Heb. 11:39,40) because the first, earthly tabernacle was still standing (Heb. 9:8,9)." In other words, as long as the worldly, fleshly, old-testament tabernacle/temple of God was still standing, then "that which is perfect" ("the more perfect Tabernacle", the Temple of God; the complete, blood- perfected Church) had not yet come in its fullness." As long as the imperfect earthly house of God remained standing and its sinful ministers were still in power, the "more perfect tabernacle" was not yet established with finality in Christ's true people.

The Throwing Down of the Hand-Made Tabernacle

In light of the above, we are now in a position to answer the question, When in history did the Tabernacle/Temple/Body "which is perfect" come? The answer is, When the tabernacle/temple/body which was imperfect went; that is to say, when the old-testament temple was thrown down and the old-testament world and way of worship passed away and vanished (Heb. 8:13)." At that time, tongues ceased.

Jesus said concerning the old, imperfect temple at earthly Jerusalem,

Do you not see all these things?" [the beautiful stones and gifts and buildings of the temple]" "Truly I say to you, there shall not be left here one stone on a stone which shall not be thrown down."

In A.D. 70, about 40 years after Jesus' prophecy, the old temple and the old covenant world were thrown down." God's heavenly Temple was then completely established among men." That which is telios had come!" God gathered His elect into His House (Kingdom) when the earthly, hand-made" house was thrown down (II Cor. 5:1)." The Church was complete in the New Covenant Presence of Christ.

To sum up, prophecy, knowledge and tongues came to an end when:

1. the Church became the TELIOS Tabernacle/Temple/Body of God through the work of the indwelling Holy Spirit,

2. when the Way into the heavenly, TELIOS Tabernacle of God was made manifest to all the saints,

3. when the non-telios, old testament tabernacle was thrown down by the judgment of God and the saints in the consummation of the old covenant age in A.D. 70.

I Cor. 14:21 and 22
Tongues, a Sign of Israel's Destruction in A.D. 70

The gift of tongues was given in the Last Days of the old covenant age as part of the process of covenantal transformation." It was a sign of the then-impending end of the old covenant (cf. Heb. 8:13):

It has been written in the Law, 'By other tongues and by other lips I will speak to this people, and even so they will not hear Me, says the Lord.'" So that tongues are not a sign to those believing, but to those not believing." (I Cor. 14:21,22a)

Paul quoted this passage from Isa. 28:11 and 12 where Isaiah in his day warned of the approaching invasion of apostate Israel by the Assyrians, a foreign nation which spoke in a foreign tongue." In the first century A.D., God gave the sign of "tongues" to apostate Israel ("those not believing") as a warning of impending doom for themselves, their temple and their city." But as Isaiah had predicted, "they would not listen."" (cf. Deut. 28:49 and Jer. 5:15)" Their house was left to them desolate, and they were destroyed in A.D. 70." The Kingdom was taken from them and was given to the blood-perfected Church --the true Nation, House, Body, Temple and City of God.

Tongues Have Ceased

Now if we no longer live in the era of covenantal transition wherein God was changing His dwelling from the symbolic, man-made temple to the true, heavenly Temple in the heart of His redeemed people; and if the destruction of unbelieving, old covenant Israel and its imperfect temple took place in A.D. 70, then it is manifest that tongues ceased by A.D. 70.

Does this mean that no one ever speaks in tongues today?" Surely, if God wants someone to miraculously speak in another language, then that's what God will cause to happen." God can do whatever He wants." But the question should not be so much whether or not anyone ever speaks in another language by the Spirit of God today; the question should be whether or not Christians speak in tongues en masse as they did in the first century.

It has been taught by some lately that God has re-poured His Spirit upon all flesh and has re-started the first-century tongues movement in our day because we are now, again, in "the last days."" But why would God return His people to those imperfect, partial things which were to exist only while the old testament form of worship was still being imposed upon fleshly Israel in its last waning years?" Are we to believe that God will return His people to the days of the child (the old testament age; cf. Gal. 4:1-7)?" Will we have to go back to the days of transition (from Biblical Judaism to Christianity, from old covenant to New Covenant) when God's people saw Christ as through a mirror in dimness and not face to face as we do now since Christ long ago removed the veil at the Consummation of the old-testament age in A.D. 70 (II Cor. 3:13-16)?

The condemning, old (covenant) things passed away long ago." All (covenant) things were made new." Since the old-testament temple fell, Christ in the heart is forever the true "Tabernacle of God among men." Now in Christ our Redeemer -our Forgiver- the Church is enabled to realize the chief End of mankind: to love God with all his heart, soul, mind, and body; and to love his neighbor as himself." Revelation (prophecy, knowledge and tongues) ceased, but the love of God in our hearts remains (II Cor. 3:11)." Amen.

by David Green

Brethren,

I went back and read over this thread and because of Brenda’s experience with the charismatic’s and her reading of other errors in church history she has formed her belief that no one today can have a genuine baptism with the evidence of speaking in an unknown tongue to the one speaking. She is of the conclusion that Smith Wigglesworth and many of us on here that have received the baptism with the evidence of speaking in other tongues have received another spirit that is demonic.

I want everyone to know that I have no ill will toward Brenda but sadness in my heart for her because of her conclusions. I did fear for her at first because of her accusations and I did so much want to correct her having received and known the truth. But who am I to correct her or who am I to fear for her for I am nothing and would be lost without His grace.

Just remember though Brenda that the bible we hold to and the scriptures that we study are the one’s written down by men moved by the Holy Ghost. The covenant that we are in is the everlasting covenant of the blood of Jesus and every word we read and study in the New Testament were words written by Holy Ghost filled men who spoke in other tongues as the spirit gave them utterance.

As I do not want you to be deceived and receive another spirit that is false I really do hope that God will open your eyes to the truth about genuine tongues that can accompany the baptism in the Holy Ghost when God so chooses.

I do apologize where I may have tried to put the fear of God in you because of your accusations concerning tongues because I am human and by no means have reached the state of perfection.

I also like for you to know that although I believe you need God’s forgiveness for your accusations, that I have forgiven you already as soon as you implied that I and others have received a demon because we received the same similar like experience of those in the beginning of the church because we heard ourselves speak in other tongues. I will not reject it just as others will not because it is the experience of the new covenant.

Although at one time you and others would have discouraged me from seeking the baptism but because it has already happened to me you are way too late. I remember years ago I almost came to the same conclusions as you when I was around some charismatic people who were praying for me and trying to get me to speak in tongues and their was this horrible feeling in my heart and I immediately stop and left from there because I didn’t like what I was feeling and didn’t want to be deceived.

Here is a little of my testimony and it won’t offend me if you don’t believe it or think that I received another spirit not of God because I test everything by the word of God.

My own experience of the Holy Spirit at one time was not what I thought the scriptures declared. I wanted so much to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit just like they did in Acts. I kept going on but deep down there was a little doubt and I always believed that God was going to show me where I was lacking.

Then one day after the death of a friend something traumatic happen in my that I won’t go into details right now but I began to seek God in prayer all during the day and night like never before. I didn’t know until later that on that Friday night between 11 and 12 o’clock being 10 days of seeking God continually that God was going to fill me with the Holy Spirit like nothing I had ever experience in my life.

I will never forget the experience, I was kneeling beside the bed praying as humbly as I have ever pray saying these words “Father I come to thee in the only name I know how to come, in the name of Jesus thy son and I come not because I’ve been a good boy but on the ground of the blood of Jesus” that is all I remember saying when all of a sudden I found myself standing with my hands raised up shouting so loud that a thought came in my mind of “Lord I’m going wake everybody in (city I was in) hollering like this. The next thing I notice as I looked down it looked like my feet and legs were going a thousand miles an hour. The next thought I had was to listen at what I was saying and it wasn’t English but it was flowing out my month fluently like a river. The next thing I did was stop and started praising God in English. I could go and on but for the next two months there were phenomenal things happening in my life.

I didn’t learned to say a few words or repeat something someone said or even thoughts that arose in my mind like I have heard others say happened to them when they were baptized. I was filled to overflowing with the most wonderful feeling I have ever experience in my life and I found myself speaking and moving in the Holy Ghost and I was not expecting it at all because I was only seeking God.

I have no doubt whatsoever that I spoke in tongues as the Spirit of God gave the utterance. I have come to believe that there are a lot of people who have learned to say a few words thinking they have the baptism but no power in their lives. The true baptism with the Holy Ghost comes with power.

Later that very night I experience a spirit trying to deceive me and I rebuked it in the name of Jesus and it left me immediately. Praise be unto God. I will stop for now.

I am very much content with this being my last post or with the Lord giving me liberty to post again. I am not my own for I have been bought with a price.

Blessings to all!

Edit: Brethren,

I would just simply like to clarify something here concerning my bold testimony.

Please, after reading what I wrote again, I don’t want anyone on here to think that I think that I have received more light than anyone else or that my experience is greater than yours.

I also don’t want any of you to think that I think your experience of the Holy Spirit in your life was not from God because you have not spoken in tongues or because your experience was different than mind. There are many different experiences in the bible and among the people of God but as long as we test it by the word of God then we can have confidence.

Any experience that leads us away from the word of God and does not lead us to a sanctified life filled with the fruit of the Holy Spirit and cause us to Love God and his word greater should be rejected. But let us not reject the experience that God does in our life.

The reason I gave my testimony is because I am confident of what God has done in my life and you should be also. We do not need to let Brenda or anyone else slander the experience that God has done in our life. She has her mind made up concerning her conclusions and that is all the light she wants and she will stay with the teachings of men that are in the same camp of her conclusions.

To be fair Savannah I think you should be honest and state that all of this proof-texting is the result of a Pre-disposed Amillenial viewpoint which is a systematic theology, based on a man-made hermeneutic and pre-determined assumptions that cannot be proven confidently, and not a simple contextual interpretation. One must accept that Revelation is fulfilled in order to be able to come to the conclusions you present.

This is all I will say about it, I have no intention of debating it. I only say this to ask you to be honest about the intention behind such a post, as everyone on this thread is endeavoring to do so. I ask this in humility brother.

***Edit*** I presume A-Mill, but I guess it could be preterist. I am not sure I always understand the distinctives between those two views. Please forgive me if I type-casted the wrong one.

The objective of the gifts of the Spirit is edification. That has to be the question; does 'it' edify? When we say edify we are meaning to 'build.' Knowledge puffs up but charity builds-up (edifies for example). Notice how this plays out in the subject of glossa (tongues).

For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. (I Corinthians 14:4)

Notice here that Paul is saying that he is praying but his understanding is not fruitful. This means clearly that he does not understand what he is saying.

For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. (I Corinthians 14:2)

Notice again that glossa (tongues) is God-wards. Paul said his spirit was praying and here we see that only God understands the prayers. Why? They are mysteries (μυστήριον). This word has a history. It is found just 8 times in the Old Testament (Septuagint LXX Greek Old Testament). All 8 occurrences are in the book of Daniel:

Dan. 2:18 That they would desire mercies of the God of heaven concerning this secret; that Daniel and his fellows should not perish with the rest of the wise men of Babylon. (SECRET)

Dan. 2:19 Then was the secret revealed unto Daniel in a night vision. Then Daniel blessed the God of heaven. (SECRET)

Dan. 2:27 Daniel answered in the presence of the king, and said, The secret which the king hath demanded cannot the wise men, the astrologers, the magicians, the soothsayers, shew unto the king; (SECRET)

Dan. 2:28 But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days. Thy dream, and the visions of thy head upon thy bed, are these; (SECRETS)

Dan. 2:29 As for thee, O king, thy thoughts came into thy mind upon thy bed, what should come to pass hereafter: and he that revealeth secrets maketh known to thee what shall come to pass. (SECRETS)

Dan. 2:30 But as for me, this secret is not revealed to me for any wisdom that I have more than any living, but for their sakes that shall make known the interpretation to the king, and that thou mightest know the thoughts of thy heart. (SECRET)

Dan. 2:47 The king answered unto Daniel, and said, Of a truth it is, that your God is a God of gods, and a Lord of kings, and a revealer of secrets, seeing thou couldest reveal this secret. (SECRET)

Dan. 4:9 O Belteshazzar, master of the magicians, because I know that the spirit of the holy gods is in thee, and no secret troubleth thee, tell me the visions of my dream that I have seen, and the interpretation thereof. (SECRET)

What did Daniel say? He revealeth the deep and secret things: he knoweth what is in the darkness, and the light dwelleth with him. (Daniel 2:22) Daniel is known for warning Nebuchadnezzar of things that were coming by revelation. God gave Daniel the interpretation of these mysteries.

So we see then that if the mysteries are going to be useful to the Body at large they need to be interpreted. For Nebuchadnezzar an uninterpreted mystery was useless. The difference if that Paul describes not only speaking in mysteries in glossa, but praying mysteries in glossa. Why is this important?

Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. (Romans 8:26-27)

The phrase, 'cannot be uttered' is actually just one Greek word ἀλαλήτοις and is a hapax legomenon (only used once in the Bible). It's true meaning is in question in my view. It could mean words that cannot be said because they are secretive (not meant to be widely known). I don't think we can trace a direct line to I Corinthians 14:2, but there is this sense that the Holy Spirit makes intercession for us according to the will of God in a way that we cannot rightly understand. For glossa (tongues) this is where interpretation comes in.

I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying. (I Corinthians 14:5)

These are two spirituals here (glossa or tongues and prophesy). You will know that prophecy and prayer are linked (I Corinthians 11:5). Tongues is a God-wards phenomena in prayer containing revelation just like prophesy. The difference is that tongues can be interpreted so as to provide insight into what the Spirit is praying on our behalf. Example?

And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there: Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me. (Acts 20:22-23) It is quite possible that in every place Paul went, as prayer was made and an interpretation given a mystery was revealed. That mystery, having been prayed about by the Holy Spirit through some individual (possibly) was consistently interpreted to reveal that trouble was coming for Paul. This served both the purpose of making a request known to God that Paul himself had no way of knowing about, while at the same time serving the function of prophetic revelation. In this was prophesy and prayer are linked and a twofold benefit revealed.

I really would like the bigger issue to be discussed.

I have been praying all afternoon about answering what I think that it is. I am hesitant to do so, because the time it would take to articulate why I said that is not in my grasp at the moment. Not to mention my prayers and thoughts, and all the scriptures are still a degree of a mystery to me, as I have been contemplating, off and on, for probably a year or two the reason why I said that.

by David Green

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. (I Corinthians 13:12)

Since the canon has closed do believers know God even as God knows us? Have men seen God face to face? The phrase 'face-to-face' is πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον in Greek and it has a history.

And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved (Genesis 32:31).

This was when Jacob wrestled with the angel. In Hebrew the words are פָּנִים אֶל־פָּנִים and can be translated as, 'the presence of God'. In Hebrew idiom words are doubled up for emphasis. King of kings means the ultimate king. Lord of lords means the ultimate lord. Song of songs, etc. We have here in our English 'face to face' that means in the presence of God in the ultimate sense. It is the exact word usage as describes how Moses was 'face to face' with God in the mountain. Right now we cannot properly say that we are in the presence of God in that sense. The people of Israel may have held in their hands what would ultimately came to be the 39 of the 66 books of the canon, but they were not in a face to face with God.

Moreover, the entire New Testament is an expression of how God's people are to live by every word that is proceeding from the Mouth of God. The Covenant provides for the very dynamic that is trying to be explained away. Otherwise we had been better off under the Old Covenant because at least then God spoke to the people in real time. They had forgiveness and the voice of God. Shall we expect less?

It is fire that reveals the true nature of something. Job had the testimony of God, that he was one that shunned evil, but was Job perfect? Was he a full and adaquate expresion of the very image of God? Not so, and the fire of his trials would reveal it to be so, yet he said he knew that God knew the way he took, and that when he had come through, he would come through as gold. Yet even gold has levels of purity and imperfection. And when Job, who was not 'the image' of God, saw God Himself, he said, "I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee. Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes." Fire and trials will reveal what we are.

I think this way a lot of times too brother, so I have to admit, that this statement took a lot of wind out of my sails. I am not sure how to respond. My flesh has responses, my spirit does as well, and so does my mind have hundreds of biblical ways to reply. However the letter killeth and the Spirit maketh alive. This is a good reminder to remain humble and ever-bent before the throne of grace brother. Willing to receive good and bad at the hand of the Lord..."though He slay me."

When will the face-to-face take place? What is our experience now?

They that have been Baptized into Jesus Christ by the Spirit have the earnest of the inheritance.

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. (Ephesians 1:13-14)

We have the 'earnest' of our inheritance now with the full inheritance to be provided later; that is the 'face-to-face.' In other words the 'face-to-face' with God is what Adam lost; we have an earnest of that now but will fully inherit that face-to-face fellowship when we are absent from the body and present with the Lord; when we depart to be with Christ which is far better, etc.

Paul begins his discourse in I Corinthians on the spirituals with this qualification:

Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. (I Corinthians 12:3) \t \t

We see here that going forward in this context we are not merely talking about natural abilities, but abilities made possible by the Holy Spirit.

Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. (I Corinthians 12:4)

The focus is still on the Spirit of God giving these 'gifts'. This is not human ability. The revelation gifts will be just that; Revelation. They cannot be understood to mean learning or logical deduction. They are Divine in origin.

To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another [divers] kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. (I Corinthians 12:10-11)

So we see then that γλῶσσα (glossa) in this context is clearly a gift of the Spirit. It is NOT ecstatic speech as found in paganism, but is a language that God understands as surely as He understood the dreams of Nebuchadnezzar. As I have shown in an earlier post the Greek words for 'speaketh mysteries' find their first use in the book of Daniel. Again Paul writes:

For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. (1Corinthians 14:2)

Again we have the identification as to the origin of the speaking; it is 'in the spirit.'

Wherefore let him that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue pray that he may interpret. For if I pray in an [unknown] tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. (I Corinthians 14:13-14)

My spirit that is alive unto God prays by the Holy Spirit. This is prayer that bypasses the intellect so as to pray in the Spirit according to the will of God. The act of praying in the Spirit is not a 'taking over' of us by the Holy Spirit because the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. This is the one side of the coin Paul speaks of next:

What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

So we see then from the context of the passages in question that Paul again refers to praying 'with' the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is involved in all of the gifts. To single out tongues from the gifts (spirituals) so as to make them either of human or demonic origin is an imposition on the text. It would be like going through the list of the fruit of the Spirit singling out JOY and then saying it was human or demonic in origin. God does not intentionally mislead His people. Simple hermeneutical rule? When the plain sense makes good sense seek no other sense.
\t

"What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also."

Paul demonstrates that God gives the understanding so that one is not like the pagans.

Lets do the math:

If man + tongues = pagan utterance

Then Paul + tongues = pagan utterance

Notice the personal pronoun here:

I thank 2168 my 3450 God 2316, I speak 2980 with tongues 1100 more than 3123 ye 5216 all 3956: (I Corinthians 14:15)

This is 'I' and 'ye'. If your logic is correct, the Corinthians were moving in the demonic- but Paul thanked God he was more demonic than all of them.

So the difference is that the tongue given from God is perfectly legible when one asks Him for the intrepretation verse 13. Does this sound like the tongue practise taking place today?

How do you make that square with I Corinthians 14:2? I have left the strongs numbers for reference sake.

For 1063 he that speaketh 2980 in an [unknown] tongue 1100 speaketh 2980 not 3756 unto men 444, but 235 unto God 2316: for 1063 no man 3762 understandeth 191 [him]; howbeit 1161 in the spirit 4151 he speaketh 2980 mysteries 3466. (I Corinthians 14:2)

Again, no man understands the mysteries. The word for 'mysteries' is the same word used several times (as I listed) in the Book of Daniel to denote a mystery of God that required an interpreter. Without the interpretation the dream was such that the recipient knew it was from God- but did not know the meaning. God-ward tongues (glossa) is no different. They are directed to God, but we can eaves drop on the message if we have the interpretation. Again, I see this happening as Paul testified of the Spirit speaking in every city of trials that awaited him, etc.

Paul being highly educated spoke a number of languages and this is what he saying. He was in a superior position when hearing languages used as a gift as he probably knew already a number of them

What languages do you think Paul spoke? The lingua franca of Rome was Greek. I also am requesting a translation of the passage in question showing Paul's spoke in more languages than ye all.

Again you are confusing the revelation and ignoring what I have said about God-wards glossa as being already revealed in principal in Daniel. The Greek words are a direct match. Bible words have histories and when we want to know what God means by a word we have to follow the history. Scripture interprets itself.

Here are the main translations of I Corinthians 14:18:

NIV
I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you.

New Living Translation (©2007)
I thank God that I speak in tongues more than any of you.

English Standard Version (©2001)
I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
I thank God, I speak in tongues more than you all;

International Standard Version (©2008)
I thank God that I speak in other languages more than all of you.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
I thank God that I speak in other languages more than any of you.

King James Bible
I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

American King James Version
I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than you all:

American Standard Version
I thank God, I speak with tongues more than you all:

Bible in Basic English
I give praise to God that I am able to make use of tongues more than you all:

Darby Bible Translation
I thank God I speak in a tongue more than all of you:

I give thanks to my God -- more than you all with tongues speaking (Youngs literal)

Brethren,

I would just simply like to clarify something here concerning my bold testimony.

Please, after reading what I wrote again, I don’t want anyone on here to think that I think that I have received more light than anyone else or that my experience is greater than yours.

I also don’t want any of you to think that I think your experience of the Holy Spirit in your life was not from God because you have not spoken in tongues or because your experience was different than mind. There are many different experiences in the bible and among the people of God but as long as we test it by the word of God then we can have confidence.

Any experience that leads us away from the word of God and does not lead us to a sanctified life filled with the fruit of the Holy Spirit and cause us to Love God and his word greater should be rejected. But let us not reject the experience that God does in our life.

The reason I gave my testimony is because I am confident of what God has done in my life and you should be also. We do not need to let Brenda or anyone else slander the experience that God has done in our life. She has her mind made up concerning her conclusions and that is all the light she wants and she will stay with the teachings of men that are in the same camp of her conclusions.

I am so thankful that I am not her pupil not that I don’t believe God saved her or even filled her with a measure of his Spirit but her conclusions as of now will hurt her fellowship with the Lord and of being able to fellowship with many in the body of Christ. I feel sorry for those who get swayed by her teachings. Robert and others have brought out scripture after scripture about tongues in the bible but she only sticks to the teachings of her camp.

We must be willing as people of God to be persecuted for what we believe and be thankful that we could even be counted worthy to suffer for his name sake.

Hebrews 13:12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
Hebrews 13:13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.
Hebrews 13:14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.
Hebrews 13:15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.
Hebrews 13:16 But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.

Hebrews 11:26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

Hebrews 12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

Matthew 10:24 The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.

Matthew 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Matthew 27:32 And as they came out, they found a man of Cyrene, Simon by name: him they compelled to bear his cross.

Matthew 27:39 And they that passed by reviled him, wagging their heads,

Matthew 27:40 And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.

Matthew 27:41 Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said,

Matthew 27:42 He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.

Matthew 27:43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.

Matthew 27:44 The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.

Luke 6:22 Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.

Acts 5:41 And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name.

1 Corinthians 4:10 We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised.

1 Corinthians 4:11 Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace;

1 Corinthians 4:12 And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:

1 Corinthians 4:13 Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.

2 Corinthians 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

1 Peter 4:4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:

1 Peter 4:14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

1 Peter 4:15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.

1 Peter 4:16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

I will continue to praise God for his truth and will by his grace continue to preach and teach the whole counsel of the word of God.

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Here is Paul’s testimony that I pray to acquire in my walk with God.

Acts 20:19 Serving the Lord with all humility of mind, and with many tears, and temptations, which befell me by the lying in wait of the Jews:
Acts 20:20 And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house,
Acts 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
Acts 20:22 And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there:
Acts 20:23 Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me.
Acts 20:24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.
Acts 20:25 And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.
Acts 20:26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.
Acts 20:27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.

Blessings to all!

Any interpretation of Pauls writings on tongues which does not take into consideration the prevailing culture of ecstatic utterances, and see the necessity of Paul bringing clarity to the Corinthians on the matter of conflict beween the gift of languages and that practise is not engaging properly with the text and is engaging instead in putting their own spin on it to prove their own ideas.

This sounds like a good argument, but I wish to know one single verse where Paul identifies the behavior of the Corinthians as pagan. I've read your theory and have heard John M's and others, but the scripture does not support this at all. Paul is advising on the right-use of tongues so as to promote the edification of the Body and not just the individual. Is it possible that pagan glossa could edify a Christian? The misuse of tongues was not that it was demonic, but that it was robbing the church of the plurality of edification and reduced it to just the speaker of tongues. This could be remedied with an interpretation. Without interpretation the meetings were not to be interrupted with tongues as it would not edify and would cause a confusion among the unlearned, etc.

As For Adam Clarke, I disagree with him on this passage. It's not the first time and it wont be the last.

I believe that Paul was being very sensitive here over the tongue issue and shows his brilliance in banning uninterpreted tongues from some in the assembly without specifying the ecstatic utterers as not speaking from God.

But this does not square with Paul's solution. You are assuming that the utterances were ecstatic when Paul says the only problem is that there is no interpreter. He even told them to pray that they would be able to interpret. There is simply no place where Paul even deals with ecstatic utterance, because if such a thing were present he would have written a Galatians type letter. The threat would have been intolerable.

"Every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation (change)" (James. 1:17).

God never makes a mistake, He never changes and He gives only perfect gifts. Therefore when He gave the gift of "speaking in unknown languages" ("tongues") to the church on the day of Pentecost, He knew exactly what He was doing. The gift of "tongues" was a perfect gift. God has not changed His mind about the gift, for He never changes.

God knew the controversies that would surround this gift in the 20th century. Yet He felt the church needed this gift to fulfill its ministry.

Even major truths such as the Trinity, the Deity of Christ, the Humanity of Christ and the Person of the Holy Spirit have been opposed and have faced controversy in the history of Christendom. So it should not surprise us if the gift of "tongues" has been controversial too.

It is always best to stick exactly to what Scripture says on all doctrinal matters. Let us look then, with an unprejudiced mind, at every single verse in the Bible on the subject of "speaking in tongues":

Truth No. 1
Mark 16:17: [Jesus said,] "These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues... they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."

Jesus said that some of the signs accompanying the company of "those who have believed" would be speaking in tongues, casting out demons and healing the sick. He did not say that ALL these signs would accompany EVERY believer. But He said that these signs would be found among the company of "those who have believed".

So every believer need not have all these gifts. Neither need every church have all these gifts. But they will be found in the whole church worldwide. The Holy Spirit sovereignly decides whom to give the gifts to.

Truth No. 2
Acts 2:4,7,11: "They were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance....... And the Jews from every nation marvelled saying....`We hear them in our own tongues speaking of the mighty deeds of God.'"

The first time that believers were filled with the Holy Spirit, they ALL spoke in tongues. The "tongues" were languages that others understood immediately. So there was no need for the gift of interpretation.

Notice also in verse 4 that it was the persons themselves who began to speak in tongues and not the Holy Spirit. The Spirit did not move their tongues. The Spirit only gave them utterance. They spoke themselves.

In no gift, does the Holy Spirit take away freedom of choice from us. In fact, the fruit of the Spirit is "self-control" (Gal.5:23). Only demon-possessed people lose control of themselves. One who is filled with the Spirit will have more control over himself than anyone else. "The spirit of the prophets is subject to the control of the prophets"
(1 Cor.14:32).

Truth No. 3
Acts 10:46: "They were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God."

Here, in the house of Cornelius, all who were in his house were baptized in the Holy Spirit, at the same moment as they were converted to Christ. They spoke in "tongues" exalting God (praising Him) - not speaking to people, as was the case on the day of Pentecost.

Truth No. 4
Acts 19:6: "When Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying"

The Holy Spirit came upon the believers in Ephesus, when Paul laid hands on them. The "tongues" here seems to have been prophesying.

Note the following facts from the above instances in "Acts":

(a) In Acts 2 they received the Spirit, after water baptism. In Acts 10, they received the Spirit BEFORE water baptism.
(b) In Acts 2 and 10, they received the Spirit without anyone laying hands on them. In Acts 19, they received the Spirit after Paul laid hands on them.
(This proves that there is no standard pattern for receiving the Spirit. It could be either before or after water-baptism, and also with or without the laying on of hands).
(c) In Acts 8:14-18, when the disciples in Samaria received the Holy Spirit, there is no mention that they spoke in tongues. But Simon the magician did see some evidence (we are not told what it was) which made him want the same ability that Peter had.

Truth No. 5
1 Cor. 12:7,8,10: "But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit... to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues."

The gift of tongues is for "the common good" - the good of the church. This was written 25 years after the day of Pentecost. And the gift of tongues was still being given then by the Spirit "for the common good".

Truth No. 6
1 Cor.12:11: "But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills".

This is perhaps the clearest Scripture that teaches that the Holy Spirit sovereignly decides to whom to give each gift (including the gift of tongues). We cannot dictate to Him whom He should give any gift to.

Truth No. 7
1 Cor. 12:28: "God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then... various kinds of tongues."

It is God Who appointed the gift of tongues in the church - for some purpose. So we should never oppose this gift, lest we be found opposing God. Remember that He has more wisdom than we have.

Truth No. 8
1 Cor. 12:30: "All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they?"

All believers do not speak in tongues, just like all believers do not have the gifts of healing. So obviously, God does not feel that "tongues" is an essential gift for all believers - either for being holy or for being effective in His service. If it were, He would have given this gift to everyone.

Truth No. 9
1 Cor. 13:1: "If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal."

Speaking in tongues without love is useless. All pride in those who speak in tongues, and all "looking down" on others who don't speak in tongues is because of a lack of love. Such unloving believers who speak in tongues are as repulsive to God as a noisy gong is to us.

Truth No. 10
1 Cor. 13:8: "Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away."

When perfection comes at Christ's return, there will be no more need for speaking in tongues.
In heaven, there will be no need for "tongues" - just like there will be no more need for Bible-knowledge or prophecy.

So "tongues" is a temporary gift needed only under the imperfect conditions prevalent on earth.
This explains why Jesus never needed the gift of tongues. It was because His mind was perfectly pure and because He lived in perfect communion with His Father at all times,

Truth No. 11
1 Cor. 14:2: "One who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men, but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries."

The gift of tongues mentioned here is obviously different from the one manifested on the day of Pentecost - for this gift is not to "speak to men but to God" and no-one can understand what the speaker is saying.

Truth No. 12
1 Cor. 14:4: "One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself
The gift of tongues enables a believer to build himself up spiritually.

Truth No. 13
1 Cor. 14:5: "I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy; and greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edifying. But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking in tongues, what shall I profit you, unless I speak to you either by way of revelation or of knowledge or of prophecy or of teaching?"

Paul wished that ALL spoke in tongues. This is yet another verse that clearly indicates that all believers do NOT speak in tongues.

Paul's wish here is similar to his wish that ALL should be single like he himself was (as he states earlier in the same letter - 1 Cor.7:7). Paul saw some benefits in being single. He also saw some benefits in speaking in tongues. But Paul recognised that just as God was sovereign in giving the "gift of being single" only to some believers, He was equally sovereign in giving the "gift of tongues" also only to some believers.

Therefore it is as foolish to expect all believers to speak in tongues as it is to expect all believers to be single!!

In the church-meeting, it is far better to prophesy (that is, to speak God's Word "to encourage, edify and console" others - 1 Cor. 14:3). If however a 'tongue' is interpreted, then it is equal to prophecy.

Truth No. 14
1 Cor. 14:9,13: "Unless you utter by the tongue speech that is clear (understandable), how will it be known what is spoken?...Therefore let one who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret."
"Tongues" must be interpreted when used in a church meeting.

Truth No. 15
1 Cor. 14:14: "If I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. What is the outcome then? I shall pray with the spirit and I shall pray with the mind. I shall sing with the spirit and I shall sing with the mind."

When praying in tongues, a person cannot understand what he is praying. But Paul still felt that he should pray and sing "with the spirit" (in tongues), as much as he did with his mind (in a known language).

Truth No. 16
1 Cor. 14:18: "I thank God, I speak in tongues more than you all." Paul was thankful to God for this gift. So it must have helped him.

Truth No. 17
1 Cor. 14:19: "However, in the church I desire to speak five words with my mind, that I may instruct others also, rather than ten thousand words in a tongue."
In the church, speaking in a known language is always the best.

Truth No. 18
1 Cor. 14:22: "Tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe, but to unbelievers"
Tongues are for a sign to unbelievers - as on the day of Pentecost.

Truth No. 19
1 Cor. 14:23: "If therefore the whole church should assemble together and all speak in tongues, and ungifted men or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad?"

It is madness for all to speak in tongues in a church-meeting - for no one will understand what anyone is saying. (This must obviously be referring to people speaking in tongues individually and not when all are praying together - for in the latter case, we do not listen to the prayers of even those who pray in a known tongue.)

Truth No. 20
1 Cor. 14:26, 27: "What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification. If anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and let one interpret;"

Not more than two or three should speak in tongues in a meeting of the church, but each "tongue" must be interpreted. "Interpretation" is not the same as "translation". Translation is "word for word". Interpretation is "expressing the thought in one's own words".

Truth No. 21
1 Cor. 14:39: "Therefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak in tongues."

This then is the conclusion. Don't forbid the exercise of the gift of tongues. But if you are desiring a gift, seek for the gift of prophecy more than for the gift of tongues.

The True And The Counterfeit

There is a certain amount of mystery about the gift of tongues, as all those who have received the gift will acknowledge - if they are honest. We do not know everything about it. We know only in part (1 Cor.13:12).

As one who has spoken in tongues for the past 26 years, let me add a few words concerning what I presently understand about the gift, from my own experience.

When a person speaks in tongues, his spirit (heart) speaks forth syllables (directly from his heart to his mouth, bypassing his mind) and thus he pours out whatever is in his heart to God - whether that be an overflow of joy or a burden caused by sorrow or discouragement. Thus the pressure on his heart is relieved. That is how he is 'edified'

As we saw earlier in Acts 2:4, when anyone speaks in tongues, it is the person himself who speaks, and not the Holy Spirit. The believer forms the syllables himself, just as he does when speaking in a known language. The only difference is that now, he does NOT use a known language to pray, but concentrating on the Lord, speaks forth syllables with his mouth, straight from his heart, bypassing his mind - knowing that God understands the longings and pressures in his heart, even if he cannot understand himself what he is saying.

Unburdening himself like that in moments of pressure helps a believer, especially if his mind is too tired to pray in a known language. We may not be able to explain how this works, but it does.

Let us now look at the gift of interpretation: As we have already seen, interpretation of a tongue is equivalent to prophesying. So this gift will usually be given by the Spirit to one who has the gift of prophecy as well.

In a church-meeting, if someone speaks in a tongue, one of those having the gift of prophecy (usually one of the elders), if he is walking in the light of God, will find a thought being impressed on his mind, if the "tongue" is genuinely from God. He speaks forth that thought in his own words - for it is not a translation, but an interpretation.

If another elder (who also has the gift of interpretation) had interpreted the "tongue", the interpretation would have been the same (although couched in that elder's own words). This would be the case if both elders were in perfect touch with the Lord.

Since no revelation from God can contradict what is written in the Bible, the interpretation will be in accordance with Scripture - just like all true prophecy will also be in line with the Scriptures.

Some who are sceptical of spiritual gifts have asked this question: If a "tongue" that was interpreted in a meeting, is copied on to a tape and someone else (with the gift of interpretation) in another p lace is asked to interpret it, will the interpretation be the same as the first one? The answer is: It should be, if both interpreters had a perfect understanding of the mind of the Lord. If the interpretation is different in content, (and not just in words), that would only indicate that one or both interpreters are not in such perfect touch with the Lord as to understand His mind perfectly. That is not abnormal, because no believer in the world is in such perfect touch with the Lord as to know His mind perfectly.

The following example will prove this fact beyond any doubt: Suppose you have to speak in a meeting and you have a particular message on your heart which you feel is the burden of the Lord for that meeting. Then, if you are unable to be at that meeting and someone else speaks in your stead, strictly speaking, he should give the same message as you had on your heart (even if it be in his own words). If that brother doesn't give the same message as you had on your heart, it would indicate that one of you did not have a perfect understanding of the Lord's mind for that meeting. So we see that believers could fail such a test even when giving a message in a known language.

That's why the Bible tells us to judge even a prophet's message (1 Cor.14:29). Similarly, we should judge, all messages in "tongues" and their "interpretations". What should we judge in such cases? Just this: Whether our spirit witnesses that the utterance (prophecy, tongues or interpretation) was Scriptural (and from the Lord) or not.

We are warned (in 1 John 4:1) not to believe every spirit but to "test the spirits whether they are of God". So every time, we hear "tongues" or interpretation in public, we must test it in our spirits. Many of the "supernatural utterances" we hear may not be from God. We must always reject a prophecy (or any part of it), a "tongue", or an interpretation, if we feel uneasy about it in our spirits, for any reason.

It is the unquestioning acceptance of everything supernatural and abnormal that has brought tremendous confusion into Christendom in this century - and tremendous dishonor to the Lord's Name as well.

Notice these facts in all instances of speaking in tongues in "Acts" :

(a) In every case, the speaking in tongues was spontaneous;
(b) In every case, all spoke in tongues - there were no exceptions;
(c) In every case, there was no coaching or urging or instruction given on how to speak in tongues;

Today however, in most places, none of the above characteristics are found. Only where the gift of tongues is spontaneously received without any coaching, can we conclude that it could be genuine.

Of all the "speaking in tongues" that I have heard, my spirit has borne witness to only a small percentage of it as genuine. Most of the rest I have felt was an attempt to imitate the gift - either to be accepted by others in a group or to impress them. A small percentage could even be of demonic origin. My observations are based on the fruit and the results that I have seen in the lives of many people in many lands. Speaking and singing in tongues often appears to be a form of "exhibitionism" in many churches - and exhibitionism is characteristic of little children.

It is also a well-established fact that, at this present time, the maximum exploitation of believers for financial gain is practised by those preachers and pastors who claim to "speak in tongues". Most of the cults in the 20th century have also developed from tongue-speaking groups.

My advice to all believers therefore is: "Avoid churches that major on the gifts of tongues and healing - because many of them go to dangerous extremes and usually don't have spiritually-minded leaders. Seek instead for fellowship with a church that emphasises holiness and disciple-making primarily, that accepts the genuine gift of tongues and that does not covet your money or seek to control your life."

Let me also emphasise that we need to use our mind (renewed by the Holy Spirit) if we are to understand God's will and His Word aright (Rom.12:2). Many believers tend to despise their minds. Our mind is to be like a wife. She should not be the head of the home. But she should not be killed either!! Jesus is our husband and head. Our mind should be submissive to Him through our heart.

In a nutshell then, here is a bit of sane advice on "tongues":

"If God gives you the gift of tongues, receive it and exercise it. Speak forth the syllables from your heart to God when you are alone with Him - anywhere - and especially when your heart is under pressure (through discouragement) or overflowing with joy. If you don't have the gift, don't worry about it. But be open to the Lord to receive it, at all times. Don't be against it and don't get into a frenzy to receive it. God will give it to you, if He wants you to have it, without any frenzy on your part. At the same time, don't believe that everything you see and hear in Christendom is inspired by the Holy Spirit. Test everything. Use your God-given faculties of discernment. If you don't have the gift of tongues, don't consider yourself inferior to those who have it. And if you do have the gift, don't imagine that it makes you spiritual or superior to those who don't have it. (Paul and the Corinthian Christians both spoke in tongues. But Paul was a spiritual giant, while the Corinthians were carnal!!)."

What Is Absolutely Essential

What is absolutely essential for all of us is to be endued with the Holy Spirit's power. It is power, and not speaking in tongues that is the evidence of the baptism in the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:8).

The Holy Spirit is to be received by faith (Jn.7:37-39), just as we received the forgiveness of our sins - on the basis of Christ's merit alone, and not on our own merit. We do not receive the Gift of the Spirit by fasting or praying or by any other work. He is a Gift (Acts 2:38).

We ask and receive - immediately by faith - and go forth believing in God's promise that He gives the Holy Spirit more readily to those who ask Him, than any earthly father would give food to a hungry son (Lk.11:13). If we are unsure about having received the Spirit, we can ask God to give us an assurance. He will not deny us such an assurance.

But we need to be filled with the Spirit continually (because we are leaky vessels - Eph.5:18), just like we need to be forgiven continually (because we sin - often without knowing it - Matt.6:12).

The devotion of our heart to Christ is far more important than our speaking in tongues. "Do you love Me more than everything else?", was our Lord's question to Peter, before commissioning him for His service. Arguments about "speaking in tongues" are therefore a diversion arranged by Satan to sidetrack believers from total devotion to Christ.

The greatest Christians in the world have been those who loved the Lord Jesus supremely - whether they spoke in tongues or not. Some like Peter, James, John and Paul spoke in tongues. Others like John Wesley, Charles Finney, D.L.Moody, A.B.Simpson, William Booth, C.T.Studd and Watchman Nee never spoke in tongues (as far as we know). But they all received the baptism in the Holy Spirit, they all loved the Lord with all their hearts and they ALL walked the way of the cross. These truths were central in their lives. Other things were secondary.

Let us follow their example and we won't go wrong..

He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

Zac Poonen

The Father asked counsel from Jesus. My Son, what do you think of Paul over here who is persecuting you? Jesus says, Father, I think you should save him because he is one dynamic man. He's educated, knows several languages and even sat under one of the most recognized men of the day, thus making him a wise man. He has knowledge and understanding of the law. He would be perfect as an Apostle to the gentiles. We need his linguistic expertise and his ability to rightly divide the law to these ignorant foolish, lowly and unwise people.

I am laughing at this soooo hard right now. Thank you so much for that humor.

I enjoyed your post brother Christian but it also causes me to think of some things that might be misinterpreted concerning 1 Cor. 14:32

1 Corinthians 14:29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
1 Corinthians 14:30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
1 Corinthians 14:31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
1 Corinthians 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

I thought I would take a passage from Barnes to help say what I am trying to get across because I believe many have taken 1cor. 14.32 out of context and have applied this scripture to the initial infilling of the Holy Ghost and also used it to mean that God will not do anything beyond our control not understanding that we are to give God control of our lives to do as he pleases. God will never lead us to do anything against His will.

-quote-
The evident meaning of this is, that they were able to control their inclination to speak; they were not under a necessity of speaking, even though they might be inspired. There was no need of disorder. This verse gives confirmation to the supposition, that the extraordinary endowments of the Holy Spirit were subjected to substantially the same laws as a man's natural endowments. They were conferred by the Holy Ghost; but they were conferred on free agents, and did not interfere with their free agency. And as a man, though of the most splendid talents and commanding eloquence, has control over his own mind, and is not compelled to speak, so it was with those who are here called prophets. The immediate reference of the passage is to those who are called prophets in the New Testament; and the interpretation should be confined to them. It is not improbable, however, that the same thing was true of the prophets of the Old Testament; and that it is really true as a general declaration of all the prophets whom God has inspired, that they had control over their own minds, and could speak or be silent at pleasure. In this the spirit of true inspiration differed essentially from the views of the heathen, who regarded themselves as driven on by a wild, controlling influence, that compelled them to speak even when they were unconscious of what they said. Universally, in the heathen world, the priests and priestesses supposed or reigned that they were under an influence which was incontrollable; which took away their powers of self-command, and which made them the mere organs or unconscious instruments of communicating the will of the gods. The Scripture account of inspiration is, however, a very different thing. In whatever way the mind was influenced, or whatever was the mode in which the truth was conveyed, yet it was not such as to destroy the conscious powers of free agency, nor such as to destroy the individuality of the inspired person, or to annihilate what was peculiar in his mode of thinking, his style, or his customary manner of expression.
-quote-

The prophets are ones who have already received the baptism with the Holy Ghost with the initial evidence of speaking with other tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance. Therefore the Spirit is subject to the prophet meaning he has control and should not cause confusion or disorder.

We must distinguish the difference in being immersed in the Holy Spirit by being filled with the Holy Ghost where the Spirit gives the utterance to cause us to speak in an unknown tongue and where we have the one who is gifted to be a prophet.

The prophet, and I also believe the one who has been filled with the baptism in the Holy Ghost with speaking in other tongues, has control of himself and is not force to do anything against his will nor God’s will. But there is a little difference in the initial infilling and the one who is already filled.

The first time one is filled they don’t know exactly what is going to happen because it is an experience they have never had happen before and they are trusting God to fill them and they will do and speak things they have never done or spoken before. They will feel things they have never felt before.

I believe it can be somewhat confusing to say that if we loose control then that is not the Spirit of God because even though I believe we are not to lose control altogether, we are also to understand we are submitting to God to take control of His temple. When he filled me, and many others besides me, he toke control and cause me to speak in a language having never learned and also to run and shout. I realize I may have been able to stop it but I was yielded to Him and was not afraid of what He was doing in me.

So I don’t believe we should make a blanket statement and say that we should never lose control or it will not be of God. I believe that we can and should surrender to Him having control over us but not against our will.

I believe when one truly submits to God for God to fill him/her with the Holy Spirit that God does take control of the submitted believer and they can be filled with the Spirit to where the Spirit moves them to do things and they not know exactly what is going to happen but only find themselves doing his will.

Acts 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
Acts 8:40 But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.

Just a few thoughts for anyone willing to understand and encouragement to those who can appreciate it.

Blessings to everyone!

Hi again everyone.

"The objective of the gifts of the Spirit is edification. That has to be the question; does 'it' edify? When we say edify we are meaning to 'build.'"

Amen Robert.

I think this is especially significant in considering what what was put forward in the article by Mr. Green.

"Hebrews 9:11
The Perfect Tabernacle and the Imperfect Tabernacle

But Christ having appeared as a High Priest of the coming good things, through the greater and more perfect (TELIOS) Tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation....

The "more perfect Tabernacle" here is that heavenly "Temple" or "Dwelling" unto which the Church was growing through the power of the Holy Spirit in Eph. 2:21,22." It corresponds to the heavenly "building," "house" and "home" with which the Church was expecting to be clothed in II Cor. 5:1,2,6; it is the "Abode" which the Father and the Son were going to make within believers (Jn. 14:23); it is the promised "Tabernacle of God among men" which the Church was anxiously awaiting (Rev. 21:3; 22:7,10,12,20)." It was to be the formation of Christ in the Church which Paul was eagerly expecting in Gal. 4:19." It was to be the realization of the first-century Church's hope of glory: "Christ in you" (Col. 1:27)." In very truth, it is that Kingdom which Jesus said is "within you" (Lk. 17:21)."

He is right in suggesting that body of Christ is the more perfect Tabernacle that was to come, but what is striking is that he would suggest that this is reason for tounges and other gifts to have ceased, instead of being all the more reason for them to have continued.

But why do I say that?

Because, as you pointed out Robert, the gifts are meant for our edification. Or as you rightly refined it: for our being BUILT up.

And so, while it is true that the more excellent Tabernacle has come, and that we have been joined to it, yet it IS STILL BEING BUILT. And we as its stones, are STILL BEING CRAFTED.

No doubt the gifts were still being given to the believers when Peter wrote that they were "living stones' built up into an Holy habitation for God.

Living stones, and from Paul, "the workmanship of God".

And this workmanship is continious while we are yet upon the Earth. For just as the sound of a hammer was heard no where upon the site for the house that Solomon built for the LORD, and the stones were all quarried elsewhere and brought to it, so to we, as living stones for the House of God, are being quarried now from the Earth, to be brought hither and joined to that New Jersusalem, coming down out of Heaven, as a bride for her husband.

Paul, the wise master builder that was appointed by God lays out clearly the functions of of differnt ministries that have been given by God, for the purpose he says,

of perfecting the saints.

Indeed, the stones are still being crafted and the house is still being joined together, and it is still in need of the gifts that GOD has ordained for it to be built up.

No doubt when Peter said that we had been given all things that pertain unto life and godliness, he did not exclude the gifts which he, being an Apostle of Christ was a partaker of.

No, Paul, that wise master builder says he laid the foundation, and now, let everyman take heed,

how he build thereon.

Amen.

I might just add to Chris' point by saying there are still Jews in the world today. It would follow that if the purpose of tongues would be a 'sign' then they would still be needed today for that purpose.

Something else if I could, this again from the article by Mr. Green:

'I Cor. 14:21 and 22
Tongues, a Sign of Israel's Destruction in A.D. 70

The gift of tongues was given in the Last Days of the old covenant age as part of the process of covenantal transformation." It was a sign of the then-impending end of the old covenant (cf. Heb. 8:13):

It has been written in the Law, 'By other tongues and by other lips I will speak to this people, and even so they will not hear Me, says the Lord.'" So that tongues are not a sign to those believing, but to those not believing." (I Cor. 14:21,22a)

Paul quoted this passage from Isa. 28:11 and 12 where Isaiah in his day warned of the approaching invasion of apostate Israel by the Assyrians, a foreign nation which spoke in a foreign tongue." In the first century A.D., God gave the sign of "tongues" to apostate Israel ("those not believing") as a warning of impending doom for themselves, their temple and their city."'

What I find sometimes most conspicous about qoutes from the Bible, is not what is included, but what is left out.

It says also in this passage from the prophet:

"To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear."

I recall when studying this before, that this language here has a correspondence with the language of the Sabbath.

Indeed, Paul does say that tongues were for a sign to the unbeliever, but a sign of what?

He says before for what purpose speaking in tongues was for the believer, that he builds himself up( 1Co 14:2-4).

it is then the work of God, in the midst of the perpetual sabbath of rest through the Holy Spirit, for the believer.

It is the rest of which the Lord Jesus says 'come unto me, all you that labor and are heavy laden'

That He would give them rest. Rest to cease working?

Not at all.

Take His yoke upon them He says. The yoke of oxen is for plowing.

It is the rest of ceasing from our own works, void of faith and power from God.

The rest of serving God on a perpetual Sabbath.

The rest of the Holy Spirit of God.

I would just like to add that there is one thing that we must learn if we are to ever be like Jesus Christ. He did only those things that He saw the Father doing. That is to say, He was not living in His own plans, but He was living by every Word that is proceeding from the mouth of God. He WAS the Kingdom of God when He walked the earth and was the only real expression of that Kingdom during that time. He came to bring the Kingdom through the One Baptism of Ephesians 4. This allows people to be Baptized into Christ and BEGIN walking in the Spirit under God's absolute authority in the same sense as did Christ. There is a 'having begun in the Spirit' that Paul speaks of in Galatians.

Why do people not know the fulness of the Spirit? Because God gives His Spirit to those that obey Him. (Acts 5:32) That is to say, there has to be a conscious willingness to want to obey the known will of God. Why do folk not see revival? Because they are not prepared to truly resign themselves to the Will of God. I am referring to more than the terms of the New Covenant; I am referring to HIS VOICE.

Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him. (Deuteronomy 13:4)

This was the stipulation for being a kingdom of priests unto God. Notice what is here:

1. Walk after the Lord
2. Fear Him
3. Keep His commandments
4. Obey His voice
5. Serve Him
6. Cleave unto Him

There are two things in the Bible that God assumes:

1. That His creation knows they have a Creator
2. That His creatures recognize His 'voice'

The churches needed to be able to ascertain the mind of God so that they could OBEY His voice. God does not make His will difficult to know. Men make it difficult by trying to cloud the simplicity with which God speaks. God wants us to know and do His will; why would He make it difficult to ascertain? If I want my children to do some certain thing- I don't make a request and then hide it from them. I may even go as far as to implement a means of stepping up the seriousness of what I am requiring them to do. I think tongues is God's way of 'stepping-up' the 'tone' of what He is saying in order to deal with the unbelieving ones.

I have a view of I Corinthians 14:21-22 that I have found to be consistent with my experience.

in the law it hath been written, that, ‘With other tongues and with other lips I will speak to this people, and not even so will they hear Me, saith the Lord;’ so that the tongues are for a sign, not to the believing, but to the unbelieving; and the prophesy [is] not for the unbelieving, but for the believing, (I Corinthians 14:21-22 YLT)

Notice the tenses of unbelieving and believing. To follow with my adopted definition of faith (right response to revelation) the people were hearing the Word of the LORD and were not responding rightly. They would not 'amen' the revelation that they knew was from God. They were 'unbelieving' what God had said; that is, they were not responding rightly to it. God then up's the stakes and utilizes a message in tongues meant to be accompanied by an interpretation. The hearers should come to attention and LISTEN. This used to be the way tongues and interpretation played out in Old School Pentecostal circles. If GOd was breaking through with a message to the church it was because they were not 'hearkening' to what was being said in plain English.

Keep in mind that tongues is God-wards. An example? The unbelieving were afforded an opportunity to hear what the Spirit was praying concerning the situation.

To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. (Isaiah 28:12)

To concur with Chris' view I would add that the purpose, again, is edification and the only way that we can be edified through the use of these gifts is if we respond rightly to the revelation. Their response? yet they would not hear (hearken). The only way a church can be a church is if they are consciously determined to hear and obey God. Otherwise men/women are just moving in their own ideas and strategies. Revelation 2-3 tells us 7 times to "hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches." Why? Because the Head desires to communicate with the Body. If the Head does not control the Body we call that paralysis.

Jesus Christ walks in the midst of the lampstands of His local churches. Their situation in real time has a real time answer. Not a one size fits all answer. Not a spanking of all the people to get the right ones. But a surgical Word that deals with the church according to the need as known by God. Ways of delivering that message is preaching, song, prophesy, tongues- interpretation, etc. Our responsibility is to 'hear' and if we hear His voice NOT harden our heart- but hearken to what He has revealed.

Good posts brethren concerning the gifts of the Spirit.

The gift of tongues for the believer praying unto God is very much edifying but Paul says that in public worship we are to use the gifts to edify the church body. We are to prophesy or pray to interpret tongues for the edification of the body and not to cause confusion. God is not the author of confusion.

Here is something to consider where tongues were used for a sign to the Jews that God had accepted the Gentiles. The tongues was a sign to them that they had received the Holy Ghost just like they did in the beginning and Peter had to except them instead of withstanding God. The Jews were astonished when they heard them speak in tongues and magnify God. Tongues were a sign that the Holy Ghost had come into the believing heart and it cause people to believe that God had truly baptized the one speaking and magnifying God.

Acts 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Acts 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Acts 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Acts 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Acts 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Acts 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
Acts 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

This is why I believe that tongues were the initial evidence of receiving the baptism of the Holy Ghost in the beginning of the church. I don’t believe that everyone in the beginning had the gift of tongues but I believe everyone baptized had the tongue as a sign of being filled. The gift of tongues is to be distinguished from the initial evidence of speaking in tongues when one is baptized in the Spirit.

I have heard the testimonies of outstanding preachers since then who said they received a baptism of power in the Spirit that cause them to do amazing things for God having never spoken in tongues. I do believe that God has filled many preachers of the gospel with the Holy Spirit without causing them to speak in tongues like Moody, Tozer, Nee, and others. There experience still does not cancel out the experience they had in Acts and the experience of others besides them.

Blessings to all!

"Notice the tenses of unbelieving and believing."

Robert, I think I can see something of what you are getting at.

The message of prophesy, being spoken in plain language was for those who believe the word. A message in tongues given with an interpretation is a sign to those who do not believe.

There is another aspect of prophesey that I think Paul says is for the unbeliever(also) and is perhaps connected with other gifts of the Spirit, in particular the word of knowledge? I'm thinking of 1Co 14:24-25.

What all of this gets to for me is something that I think you emphasied before: the nescessaity of hearing a Living Word from God in the Churches.

I think of what it says in the prophet Isaiah:

"In that day shall the LORD of hosts be for a crown of glory, and for a diadem of beauty, unto the residue of his people, And for a spirit of judgment to him that sitteth in judgment, and for strength to them that turn the battle to the gate."

"And for a spirit of judgment to him that sitteth in judgment"

Judgment here being in my mind, to decide rightly, and so then, power and wisdom from God, to apply what He has already said(in His word) to our lives, and to speak from His mind what needs to be said, amongst His people, or for those that do not know Him.

"The Lord GOD hath given me the tongue of the learned, that I should know how to speak a word in season to him that is weary: he wakeneth morning by morning, he wakeneth mine ear to hear as the learned."

Is it not what you said of Christ in the beginning of your post, that He only did what He saw with the Father?

And when you had qouted the passage from Deuteronomy, is it not the same in fulfillment as when Isaiah said,

"And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left."

One of my favorite songs in the Pentecostal congregation that I attended when I first became a Christian were these short words:

Order my steps in Your word dear Lord

lead me
guide me
every day

Send Your anointing Father I pray

order my steps in Your word,

O, order my steps in Your word.

"Here is something to consider where tongues were used for a sign to the Jews that God had accepted the Gentiles. The tongues was a sign to them that they had received the Holy Ghost just like they did in the beginning and Peter had to except them instead of withstanding God."

Rbanks, this was in back of my thoughts also in mentioning the rest of the passage in Isaiah.

I think it is significant that language that corresponds to the Sabbath is used there, 'this is the rest wherewith you may cause the weary to rest...'

In Exodus, the Sabbath(s) are called by God a sign, between Him and the children of Israel, that it was He that sanctified them(Exodus 31:13-17).

Under the New Covenant, it is the presence of God through the Holy Spirit that sets us apart.

I think you are right in pointing out that to the Apostles, those speaking with tongues and magnifying God were evidence that they had been brought into the Covenant by recieving the Holy Spirit.

Without a doubt there was no concern on the part of the Apostles that these tongues were some kind of Satanic counterfiet.

They were not in doubt of their own ministry, which was from God, as were its results.

And if they laid hands on somone and they spake with tongues and prophesyed, they were'nt in doubt as to whether or not it was real. Their's were holy hands that were laid upon them. And Holy results followed.

I do not want to interfer in this discussion, but would like to share something, hoping it will be of some edification.

My background is not Pentecostal. All I know about them or Charismatics is what I have read ("New Wine" mag, e.g.) and observation. Pentecostals use language to describe events not familiar in other Christian circles. But the issue here is tongues...

I am personally familiar with at least one (I say one because I know there were more but am unable to recall these details) - evangelist Andrew Jantzi, who, when he was preaching noticed a woman sitting close to the front. He noticed her reactions to his preaching: they was a rapturous look of pleasure, joy on her face. He made a mental note of it and resolved to speak with her afterwards. Later a young man came to him and told him how much his MIL enjoyed his sermon - and she could not understand English at all! But she understood every word he said. (This story was shared with us by Andrew's nephew Lavern Swartz, also an evangelsit.)

And then there is a lady from India who came to the states to share. The interpreter was unable to be there but she spoke in English - for the first time - and they all understood. And she has spoken English ever since although she cannot read it well.

I have encountered the gift of tongues given by the enemy at CPC. My client was in a cult and she described its use at their gatherings.

Healings: when I was growing up in IN many years ago, mom had an uncle (by marriage) who had the gift of healing. People who were ill would go there and he would lay hands on them and pray. This man was a godly man, a deacon in the church. He did not engage in pow-wowing. Everyone said this gift was from the LORD. He lived to be an old man.

When I compiled a genealogy book of my maternal g-grandfather's family I heard another story, similar. A man in the community had this gift of healing, but for some reason did not 'like' it. He fought it and later died young from some disease. Otherwise he was a Christian man.

Just thought I would share this...these stories always come to my mind whenever a discussion of this nature occurs.

May God be praised!

ginnyrose

Stories of miracles are not too hard to find.

Most have heard of the book "God's Smuggler" by Brother Andrew. The incidences of God blinding the guards, 'men' appearing at the right time are not isolated incidents. The late David Bontrager was also a man who traveled behind the Iron Curtain to deliver aid to the persecuted Believers.

One day Bro. David and ?? approached customs counter in a communist country, luggage packed with Bibles and were wondering how they will get through - legally. Here comes this 'official' who led them through customs and took them outside and told them which bus they needed to take to their destination. By this time David was so grateful for his assistance that he turned to thank him only to find him gone. He had vanished. David concluded this was an angel sent by God.

(As I recall, there is also an incident where he spoke to Russian Christians and they understood him, neither of whom naturally understood each other's language. But I do not recall these details.)

After Bro. David got a little old, he and his wife built an extra bedroom to their house to house visiting foreign Christians. They could stay there as long as they wished. Many came form the Soviet bloc. One time a gentleman appeared who wished to stay and out of the kindness of their hearts they welcomed him. He was there a few weeks until one day he disappeared. They never did know who the fellow was but could only guess.... (This story was shared with me by David's grandson who married my first cousin.)

Opinion here: most, if not all, of modern miracles occur out of the public limelight.

This is all for now - have go get ready for church services...

Have a Blessed day, y'all!

ginnyrose

Hi again everyone.

I left saturday morning to go for a walk which is my custom to do. Lately I've become pretty routine about the route I take(which is also a habit of mine, to fall into routines).

Anyway, after I left and was on my way I started to think about where I would get off the train. I'd been getting off at the same place for several weeks now, but this time it came into my mind to get off at a certain stop and to go down a certain street that I had never been down before.

So, after debating about it for a bit, I did.

Now, the reason I'm mentioning this here is because from the time I started walking down this street, one thing stood out to me: nearly all of the stores there had something to do... are you ready... with building. Carpentry, masonry, windows, electrical, you name it. One after another as far as I went down this street, the majority of the stores had something to do, with building. And there was quite a bit of activity, though none of it seemed related from one store to the other. people going here or there, or loading this or that.

I couldn't help but think of that and the discussion that we had here.

Well, eventually I turned around and started walking back, but my exploring wasn't done yet, and, crossing the street I continued to walk, with no purposefull direction in mind, just going and turning here or there as I thought I should.

After quite a walk I ended up at a place familiar to me called Rittenhouse Square(named for a descendant of William Rittenhouse, the first preacher of the Mennonite congregation of the settlement of Germantown).

After spending some time taking some photographs of a sculpture that I'm especially fond of, I decided to leave and heading out it came into mind to go into a certain old historic church nearby to see if I could take some photographs.

A minister(I assume he was a minister of the congregation) said I was allowed to take pictures and so I did, and maybe spent half and hour doing so.

Something I noticed while I was taking pictures was a small group that had assembled there. I gathered from their discussion that they had met to go over the details of a baptismal cerimony that was to take place. Now, I wasn't purposefully listening to them, but what stood out to me as I overheard them was just how regimented, ordered, and structured the whole thing was to be.

Everyone was to know what was to happen, when it was to happen, and what they were supposed to say.

I suppose that, taking the begining of this journey and comparing it with the end, some of us with a Pentecostal background might see quite a difference, by way of comparison.

I suppose that, taking the begining of this journey and comparing it with the end, some of us with a Pentecostal background might see quite a difference, by way of comparison.

I understood and thought it was a very good journey. If we keep our eyes and ears open, the Lord can teach us anywhere!

God bless

Extract from a book published in Germany by Pastor Ernst Lohmann Translated from the German.

Thought I would put forth a thought to chew on.

It seems to me that Mr. Lohmann is putting forth an argument that if there is any element of supernatural manifestation it must be the result of demonic powers. He even says it is self-evident that healings, miracles, tongues, etc. are of the enemy, and not of God. But I would like to make a couple of important scriptural observations.

Mr. Lohmann's is using arguments alone to support his point of view. This is exactly the opposite of what Paul the Apostle speaks of. He said in 2 Cor. that he came to the Corinthian church, not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but with demonstration (Greek manifestations) of the Spirit and power (Greek dunimas, the miracle working power of God). Paul several times in the NT says that the very mark and proof that his words were from God were the accompanying manifestations, signs and wonders if you will. In fact, at one point he implies that if he with demonstration and others with arguments of words were to come head to head on the thing, the one who demonstrates the power of God is the one who should be allowed to speak. Jesus said He confirms the preaching of His word with signs, manifestations of the Holy Spirit. Seems to me Mr. Lohmann is making an argument against scriptural precedent.

It seems even more strange to me that Mr. Lohmann would paint a picture of the demonic realm as overflowing with demonstration of power through manifestation and the Holy Spirit as doing no such thing, especially when even a cursory examination of the New Testament will show the manifestations of the Holy Spirit through gifts of the Spirit, healings, miracles, tongues, etc. in abundance, and the manifestations of the enemy as lesser in number, power, and easily defeated by a man who is filled with the Holy Spirit.

Just some things to consider when weighing the man's words.