Recently I have been dealing with people who do not believe the doctrine of Trinity. They say the Holy Spirit is not a person. I would appreciate if you could show me what is the consequence of this belief. How fatal is it ?
The manner in which GOD chooses to disclose
and reveal Himself is by His Spirit. GOD is
Spirit and HE is truth. The Holy Spirit
glorifys and manifests Christ as Living LORD
and Savior. When we are truly born again,
we are born of the Spirit.
The Holy Spirit of GOD empowers and enables
us to deny self, take up our cross and follow
Jesus. The Holy Spirit guides and leads us
in the Way. Because the Holy Spirit is
personal, HE can be known, heard, experienced!
Does anyone have the scriptural data on Athanasius creed ?
Sounds like you are dealing with JW's (or possibly??? (WW)COG???).
It's suggested you get a full understanding of Shekinah (from O.T.)- the presence of God dwelling with man, which some call spirit. This could be the originations of their thought.
Google threads on trinity here on SI, and you will find my stance. I do not believe the Spirit of God is a distinctly different person yet one with the Father and the Son.
The theory of the trinity was invented by the Roman Catholic Church through the work of two theologians, (Tertullian and Origen,) in attempts to make Christianity more palatable to the pagans, specifically, the worshippers of Mithras (the sun), (as well as changing the day of worship from Sabbath to SUNday instead).
(see: the Catholic Encyclopedia)
I believe that the Holy Spirit is Jesus' Spirit, our Advocate (aka:comforter) and mediates between us and our Heavenly Father.
The belief that the Holy Spirit is not the Spirit of Christ limits us in transforming into His image, from glory to glory.
II Cor. 3:17,18
CIAO!
g
Acts 20:32
"The kingdom then is not for weaklings, waverers, and compromisers... It is not for Balaam, the rich young ruler, Pilate, and Demas... It is not won by means of deferred prayers, unfulfilled promises, broken resolutions and hesitant testimonies. It is for strong and sturdy men like Joseph, Nathan, Elijah, Daniel, Mordecai, and Peter... Stephen... and Paul. And let us not forget such valiant women as Ruth, Deborah, Esther, and Lydia"
~William Hendrickson~
If the Holy Spirit is not distinctly different from the Father and Son, how do you reconcile the Diety of the Holy Spirit (acts 5:3-4) ".. lie to the Holy Spirit v.3 and ... not lied to men but to God v.4"
The concept of the trinity was not "invented" by the Roman Catholic church. I'm really not sure where this information comes from. Now the word trinity might have been coined later by the same men, but it was only a word to put a tag on what the Bible states. Why does the Bible refer to the Holy Spirit as a He?
If Jesus separates the two, why would we try to combine them?
Mathew 12:32 "Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
If it's just Jesus' Spirit, why on earth would Christ make any sort of distinction?
And in places like John 14:26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
Why again, does he refer to him as He? Why not just say I?
The belief that the Holy Spirit is not the Spirit of Christ limits us in transforming into His image, from glory to glory.
No, what this line of thinking actually does, is rob from the ministry that Christ had while on earth, and the example that He laid out for us. Did He act by His own spirit and power while in the form of a servant on earth? His own words would disagree with that. This thought argues against Scripture and Biblical logic.
The concept of the Trinity has been prevalent throughout the old testament as well. In Hebrew there is no word for god. There's a word for gods, but not god. The Shema Yisrael is more or less literally rendered "Hear O Israel, the Lord your Gods is one(ness). I am not advocation three separate god's or anything like that. I'm just saying what the Bible states. Three person's one being. Study it yourself. Find a Jewish Christian versed in Hebrew to explain it to you.
I haven't seen KingJimmy on for a bit, but months (or maybe even a year or so) ago he recommended a sermon by Art Katz talking about the doctrine of the trinity being an exceptionally valuable tool when witnessing to unbelieving Jews. Jimmy, I didn't get a chance to listen to that one, but if you still remember which sermon that is, and read this thread, could you perhaps post it, or PM it to me? Or if anyone else is familiar with what I'm looking for, please share.
Thanks. -Grant
Amen EverestoSama
Excellent! Thank you.
The oldest extant latin writer to use the term "Trinitas" from which the word Trinity originates is a guy called Tertullian. Please refer
It's suggested you get a ..
I like the way you respond. Very objective ! I will bear this in mind when I engage the opposition.
Thank you.
Grant, I am not 100% positive this is the one you are looking for, but here is a sermon Katz did on the trinity, and as was his usual tradition, I am pretty sure he worked the thematic of the Jewish people in with it.
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=7149
If I remember right, this was probably one of the best talks I have ever heard about the trinity. Art took it out of the realm of the theoretical and made the reality more real somehow. I think this is one I need to listen to again actually.
Thank you SO much. I'm looking forward to giving this one a listen when I get back from school tonight.
I will say that I called it a talk for a reason though, as some of the things he said were theological in nature, and probably some of it was pondering of things that should be prayed about and considered with a Berean attitude. That said, I think the practical applications he made about the trinity were powerful.
Quote; "
"The belief that the Holy Spirit is not the Spirit of Christ limits us in transforming into His image, from glory to glory.
How so?
It is the incorruptable Seed of Christ the Word that Peter says we are born again into. Then Christ baptizes us into the Holy Spirit. The Father is the One that compiles both sequence of events to complete His plan of, "Christ in you the hope of Glory", and the Holy Spirit being in you forever, by the prayer of Jesus to the Father.
It was not the Holy Spirit that hang on the Cross. It was not the Holy Spirit that took the beatings and crown of thorns on His Head. Jesus Christ is the only person of the God head that became man and able to take mans place on the Cross where every man should die for our sins. But since Christ paid the price and says we are crucified with Him by faith, we don't have to die on a cross as He did, for my death on a cross would accomplish nothing except to say I died the same way Jesus did, I am dead, He said it is finished and is dead, but He is resurrected to life by the Father and in that power I am resurrected to life with Him, setting in the heavenlies with Christ now.
Man is a three part being also, being in the image of God, we are body, as Christ was flesh, we are soul as Christ is soul, we are spirit as Christ is Spirit and now our Spirit, by new birth. "If we don't have the Spirit of Christ we are none of His." That takes care of our spirit. The Holy Spirit deals with us in our soul mind not in our spirit, we don't learn in spirit we learn in our soul-mind this is where Jesus said we must renew our minds to His mind that we have in spirit and the Holy Spirit is the One who will bring all thing to our mind that Jesus says, and even the things we don't understand, The Holy Spirit will teach us.
WE have a body also, so we are spirit, soul, body, Spirit=Christs Spirit, soul=Holy Spirit, and a new body the Father will give us on resurrection morning, which will be just like the One Jesus has. God has made it possible for his Perfect plan to have sons, to work in the totallity of all that God is. We have Christ in our Spirit, new birth, The Holy Spirit in our soul-mind to bring us to the Mind of Christ that is in us, and even the Father making His abode with us by His Son, that we now have the nature of our Birthing Seed born again new creature bringing us into the family of God, With a New Father and all the attributes of the God Head Three in One, and we are now called son's of God.
What a blessed Father we have from even before He formed Adam and Eve, He already had Christ ready to bring new birth from the Father by the incorruptable Seed the Word, birthed in us. The Lamb slain Now we are called the son's of God. Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
From the foundation of the world because of Adam's sin and fall.
Before the foundation of the world to make us blameless in Christ before the Father in love.
In Christ by Faith, crucified with Him, resurrected with Him and now seating at the right hand of the Father in Christ Jesus in the heavenlies, waiting for the redemption of the body of flesh and blood that cannot inter heaven, where all else already stands, by faith. We are saved in Spirit which is Christs, we are being saved in soul-mind by the Holy Spirit and we are sealed in Christ by Him also, and will be saved in body. 2 Corinthians 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us;
Phillip
Since Christ's Holy Spirit is not a distinct and seperate person from Christ himself, how can you prove the concept was not invented as a Catholic doctrine until the third century. (This is historical fact.)
The word 'Holy' is an adjective.
The word 'Spirit' is an impersonal noun.
God says, "my people shall know my name."
If the Holy Spirit is a distinct and seperate person of the trinity, either you are not his people or this title refers to Jesus Christ.
Since you are (a part of) his people, tell me the name of the Holy Spirit apart from Christ?
It's thought that alot of this confusion could be resolved if one will understand spirit is not limited to any singular time, place, or person.
How about, rather than thinking of God as a trinity,
think of God as Decanity:
1. The Father |
2. The Son } Mt. 28:19
3. The Holy Spirit |
and
4. The seven spirits of God | Rev. 5:6
This is where Occidental 'Unbiblical' logic leads you.
Grant,
Answer these two questions:
1. What is the name of the Holy Spirit?
2. Why cannot God be considered a decanity rahter than a trinity?
Then, after this, you will recieve more questions to answer, since you are so sure that the Holy Spirit is not the spirit of Jesus Christ himself -(though the first scripture quoted in my first post plainly states this fact).
I think you may have put your own foot in your own mouth.
I will respond no further until you answer me these two questions, as this post is in response to your debate.
-------------------
(you really should look at the Catholic encyclopedia for starters, or at least go back and search the few threads that have already responded to from here.
(If for nothing else, to see just what you are getting yourself into)
Further, you should look at the Hebrew Mss. ( Masoretic or any other), because apparently you don't understand what you think it says. It actually confirms my premise. There is nowhere in the whole Bible that it is stated that God is three persons.
People who say God is a trinity are first concieving that there is a trinity, then finding scriptures to confirm assumption(s).
The simple fact is, "God is Spirit."
Any argument (brought to this table) that represents man's reasoning need be considered with extreme prejudice if it is not specifically stated in the scriptures. Because of this, should you choose to debate this issue, any reasoning distinct from what the Bible says shall be stated to be "[DISREGARDED FOR THIS REASON:]".
There are three purposes in this:
1. to build an unshakeable foundation
2. i have no regard whatsoever for any person or concept standing against God's Word as revealed through the scriptures.
3. to prove that human invention(s) is/are limited, and thus inconclusive, as well as very far from perfect.
( Can you say: 'Cannon fodder' ? )
[ Rom. 3:3, 4 ]
Who is perfect?
The perfect example of the One who is Spirit filled is Jesus Christ Himself. Jesus came to earth in the form of a man, and abided by the limitations of man while on earth. Further, this explains why he often spoke in the third person in regards to many things, such as blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. This answers your question of Jesus drawing a distinction.
This does not, as you state, "rob from the ministry that Christ had on earth" but, rather instead confirms it.
______________________________________________________________________
You sed:
'This thought argues against Scripture and Biblical logic.'
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Show where the thought argues against scripture for it does not.
2. There is no such thing as biblical logic as you understand it. One should not apply Occidental rhetorical logic (Greek methods) to Oriental (Hebraic) knowledge and understanding. (It can limit and pervert understanding.) Working Jewish Thematics into Western thought is just plain ignorant. The very definitions and meanings of words are quite contrary to each other.
______________________________________________________________________
This issue need be resolved once and for all.
Whether anybody else choses to obey God in this is not my concern. Until somebody shows a sound scriptural basis for 'the trinity' there never will be any compromise here.
(You think you are a bit upset? The Catholic theologians i have debated regarding this are red with rage.)
Brother,
Thank You for your time and attention in this.
Acts 20:32
Gregg
p.s. Why are people so adamant about things they think are true, yet have no scriptural basis to back it?
Those who participate (in the ways of) 'idolatry', whether they recognize it or not, tend to become like their 'stumbling block(s)': unable to truly think, hear, or speak.
To say something is gospel truth, then find scripture to prove it, rather than starting from the scriptures and through living it out coming to (wisdom, knowledge, then) understanding is idolatry. This is worshiping human idologies over God's Truth ( Jn. 14:6 )
p.s.s. It's hoped you or anybody else are well up to the task ahead, because this issue has been studied thoroughly after revelation was recieved and lived out regarding this very thing.
What can be shaken has come to it's end:
to the time to be torn down and crushed.
(How's that for a challenge?)
p.s.s.s. For your benefit and anyone else who dares chime in, it is suggested, to save yourself embarrassment, that you question everything you say before you put it to text and post it on this thread.
(Who knows, maybe i'll be the one embarrrassed; though this is seriously doubted.)
Phillip,
Through what you wrote, clearer light has come.
God bless you further, Brother.
In the Messianic Community i frequented, the Holy Spirit was usually referrred to as the "Ruach ha' Kodesh".
Now i'm thinking, why has that not been clear to you all this time greggy bouy?
*banging my head against the wall*
ok, i did not just stop banging my head only because it feels so good when i quit. It's because, when i get dumbed, then i smart."
CIAO!
g
How "fatal" is denial of God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Wonderful Consuler, the Holy Spirit?
You know the answer to that question, and as far as the "consequences"?
maybe "unpardonable"...i'm not God, He will judge.
But it seems to me, so simple as to the Truth of the Triune God. witness Matthew 3:16-17
"And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; and behold, a voice from heaven said, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased."
in short, They are All there, and as far as these people...oh my brother, its as if you would be standing in the middle of some railroad tracks, and see a train 200 yards away, coming at you full steam, you wouldnt question, "maybe i should move aside?"
oh no, you would do it, with nary a thought, amen?
1. What is the name of the Holy Spirit? 2. Why cannot God be considered a decanity rahter than a trinity?
What was the name of Christ in the old Testament? What was the name of God before He revealed Himself as YHWH? Because someone is not given a specific name that we can call them we choose to deny their existence as an individual, when Christ Himself CLEARLY identifies Him as such. In Mathew 28:19 Jesus says to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Father and Son are not names. They are now names that we refer to them as, yes, but here they're positional statements, not literally "names". The three compose The Name. The Lord your Gods is oneness. I AM. This talking in the third person about His other form idea is complete nonsense. You would HAVE to read that into the text to come to that conclusion. You talked about deceived people having preconceived ideas and bending scripture to a mans understanding, but I can't see how that differs from the way you view all of the Bibles references to the Holy Ghost. This "I won't answer your question until you answer mine," is just silly now, come on.
I'm not sure how the idea that the Holy Spirit can be viewed as some form or manifestation of Christ when we're presented with verses like John 11:51
Now he did not say this on his own initiative, but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus was going to die for the nation,
What Spirit inspires prophecy? Jesus was still a man at the time, and as you said, still bound by the limitations of a man, so I guess He wasn't in "Holy Spirit form" yet. Since you've claimed familiarity with the Hebrew way of thinking I'm quite sure you're aware of the Holy Spirit's role in the Old Testament and to whom the Spirit was given. So I need not go into the role of the high priest, the king, the judge, the prophet, etc. etc.
Also during Christs baptism when the Spirit descended on Him like a dove, in Luke 3:22
and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in bodily form like a dove, and a voice came out of heaven, "You are My beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased.
He was descending.... on..... Himself?
I honestly can't figure out where you're coming from in all of this. I really am not upset, I'm just concerned about error. I honestly don't care about how many Catholic theologians you've bested in arguments, or even if you tear me apart in some sort of argument. Even if you dazzle us with some fancy rhetorical whirlwind of an argument, make me look like a total buffoon, and everything in between, it won't validate your point against what the Bible says. Your challenge bleeds pride man. I really hate saying that, because I have pride in my own life that I'm having the Lord burn out of me. I'm not saying this looking down on you, I'm saying this as a person who shares the struggle, and wants it dead in my own life. We should both seek Christ to rid ourselves of this.(To be honest I've had to edit this post several times to strain out fleshly and prideful statements) But to make a blanket statement that myself or anyone else who dares disagree with your view on this will be embarrassed at your ability to crush us in a debate is conveyed in just a completely wrong spirit, man. Is that what we're here for?
I'm not sure how your Hebrew and Greek abilities are, but mine are non existent. However I've had the honor of sitting under, learning from, and conversing with those who are fluent in Hebrew and Greek. Natural Jews, completed Jews as Lysa put it in another thread, who look at it from the point of a Jew, and they were able to open up the Scriptures to me in a way that I lacked the ability to do for myself. These men would also defend the idea of the Holy Spirit being a distinct person in the Tri-Unity. They didn't have to resort to any sort of special "revelation". They would just say, "Here, this is what the text says, here's how a Jew would have written it, here's how a Jew would understand it. Here's exactly what it means." I would expect that they would probably know better than a non Jew when it comes to this. All this subjective revelation nonsense is no basis for any Biblical stance. The Mormons and the JW's are the kings of this type of revelation, and honestly their arguments are much more convincing than anything I've read in this thread so far.
To be quite honest I'm not terribly interested in continuing this "debate" as you put it. I don't feel like reading page after page and being prompted to continually respond. I know you're not going to change your stance, nor will I change mine. If you decide to notch your belt for a personal victory on this one feel free. I don't desire to win an argument with you or to make you appear foolish. If it looks like I'm just displaying cowardice and backing out, so be it. You're well set in your ways of thinking, and I'd be a fool to try and persuade you otherwise. I don't care to have the last word either. Feel free to rip me apart. -Grant
p.s.s.s. For your benefit and anyone else who dares chime in, it is suggested, to save yourself embarrassment, that you question everything you say before you put it to text and post it on this thread.(Who knows, maybe i'll be the one embarrrassed; though this is seriously doubted.)
Pride, pride, pride.
Pride + Heresy = Burning Pit.
The time of Jesus' baptism is another where the Father is speaking from heaven as the Holy Spirit is descending as a dove.
There is an old thread 'godhead' (Please copy and paste the URL below). Ron Bailey (philologos) is a respected Bible teacher.
EDIT:
I would add that since a great deal of recorded human history in scripture had taken place before it was written down, God's nature as Elohim (plural of at least three) and as Spirit is His most original and defining revelation of Himself in Genesis 1.
Also Deu 6:4 : Hear, O Israel: YHVH our ELOHIYM is one YHVH: (Sacred Names Bible, available online.)
What did Paul say?
Lest i be exalted above measure, i was given a thorn in the flesh?
This cocky additude i held this morning was the result of head growing too big for my hat when last night in church, the brother who was speaking on Phillipians 2, God's revelation burst out in me while he was speaking.
Knowing that prophecy is subject to the spirit of the prophet, i just began to think, well God didn't tell me to say anything. Then i heard His voice saying, "why do you think i told you?"
The prideful attitude was there last night b4 revelation and me, thinking that it was better said later without interrupting the speaker.
Brother Bill stopped preaching while i was thinking this, as said, "i just feel that there is somebody here that has something further to share from the Word, some scriptures and according revelation related to what i have been teaching.
I thought maybe there was somebody else, so i sat and waited.
A sister in front of me, turned around and pointed me out, then said, "it is him."
When she turned and pointed to me, i saw fire in her eyes. That was not from her own self. It was more like a recognition when God is really ticked off with me. (Through the years, including this time, this same look in very godly people has come before me, inmy face, when i have been disobedient to God--once when i failed to lay hands on another for healing, when God had told me to do so immediately; once when i started getting all prideful when He gave me revelation previously: like the way i have been acting here recently, on this thread here; and, last night.
When she point at me, immediately i stood and spoke. After that the service ended in prayer, and fellow believers helped me just exalt myself that much more telling me how wonderful God has been to me in showing me so many things and on and on, and i began taking it on myself as though i were something special. (This is such a huge difference in me from just one week ago.)
Speaking of the thorn, oh, it's already begun, and i was asking up until last night just why? My wife and children have just been the tools towards this: discounting and discrediting and mocking and doing everything they can against my attitude,- (since the whole business surfaced two nights ago,) -to make me buckle down and do some major head shrinkage or cut it off.
This morning, after sending that first post (the second from me in this thread), the Spirit said, "you should not have done that. YOU DON'T REALIZE OF WHAT SPIRIT YOU NOW ARE."
I HAVE ALREADY REPENTED BUT THE CONVERSION PROCESS IN THIS HAS BEEN A LONG TIME COMING--> y-eraz (it seems). This has been going on for years, and more often than not, God has literally told me to "just shut up."... many times over. I finally broke down this morning and asked God to tear this satanic pride from me...rip it out at whatever cost. It's hurting bad already, at work at, home with family, and at play with friends.
My request is that all you guys, whoever you may be will read this and pray for me in this regard: Jer. 10:14, 23, 24.
In this we will be in total agreement.
i am wrong in this and my deepest desire is to serve God with clean hands and a pure heart.
Please do not disregard the message just because the messenger is not God.
Reading Matt's devotional thoughts this morning had me thinking after a time of repentance and refreshing from the Lord that i have not been loving my family like i should as God is love. My hardnosed stiffnecked stubborn attitude is reaping the results already.
Just when it's thought that snake of pride's head has been stomped on for the last time, it rears it's ugly head again. It's all me, my flesh, and I.
i was given the rest of the day off from work because my boss recognized my own distain for the way i have been of late. He saw my sorrow and i told him and others i was daily dealing with that i am sorry for the way i have been.
Now to you, i say i am sorry that i have been haughty and prideful in this thread. When i get like this, i always mistake my own displeasure for God's.
Who am i to judge Another's servant???
Thinking now, "take heed lest you fall" need remain at the forefront of everything i do from now on.
i have already fallen down many times, and though it's constantly prayed that He will strengthen me so that it be my last, i remain faulty, sinful, and chase the wind of my own desires and reap the whirlwind as a result.
In respect to all of this, and what God has told me relative to the preceeding, for the time being, i must bow out of any forum discussions.
It's time for more crucifixion.
God bless each and every one of you,
May His Shalom surround you,
Continue to walk in His grace
that goodness and mercy shall follow you
every day of your lives.
Broken to pieces already,
and i feel like crushing them all,
gregg
Acts 20:32
p.s.
Any commitments here shall be followed through with (Lord willing), though where i go and what i do from there is up to Him.
I may continue to read along (it's questionable presently), but i will only be signing in to check messages from time to time.
edited: misspellings and punctiuation
Gregg: Just getting to reading this thread. I appreciate the humility just shown. Way to go brother!!
Just a thought. We as God's creation are something like a triune being ourselves. We live in a body, which we know to be simply flesh, blood, and bone. We are a spirit. We also have the faculties of mind (thinking), will (choosing), and emotion (thinking) that is commonly referred to as our soul. There are a lot of things we could say about the relationship between these parts of us. Jesus made sure that Nicodemus understood that it was not his body, but rather his spirit that had to be born again. Paul lets us know that the word of God is so sharp that it can draw a separation between our soul and our spirit. Moses tells us that when body was inhabited by spirit, soul came into being. But in other places we find the distinction a little bit blurred. We obviously have a difficult time separating our own soul and spirit. "Is this from God or is it only the way I feel?" I think we are all familiar with that. The interaction between these three parts of us is so intimate that it is difficult sometimes to draw clear distinction.
I believe it very similar with God. God is spirit, that is very true. We sometimes get this rather odd picture that God is an elderly and wise gray headed gentleman, Jesus is his long-haired nail pierced son, and the Holy Spirit...well, he is somewhat ethereal and floats around out there somewhere. That is the hard part of the trinity. Because God is so "other" than us, we find it hard sometimes to make a good mental analogy that makes sense. Yet, the triune nature of God is pretty clearly evident scripturally.
Most have no problem placing the Father and the Son as separate personalities. The Son was on the earth while the Father was not. The Son prayed to the Father as though He were another person. This is not too hard to see. But the Holy Spirit? Well, the Son is right now at the right hand of the Father ever living to make intercession for us. Yet the comforter (Holy Spirit) has been sent to dwell in me. It is the same Holy Spirit that dwelt in Jesus as He walked the earth and is the same Spirit that He said dwelt with the disciples, but would dwell IN them. So it should be pretty evident that there is a separation that can be made. Yet the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one. Again, the intimate interaction of the three makes it difficult sometimes to draw clear distinction, but we can be OK with that I think.
How about this one. 1 Cor. 2 tells us that if the Holy Spirit dwells in us we can know the things that are in the mind of God and we have, as a result of the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit, the mind of Christ.
Why Should reality be simple ?
The above is a line from Foundations of the Christian Faith by James Montgomery Boice
There is a lust in the human soul to simplify complicated things. Not everything in this universe is simple. There are somethings that are very complex. Yet they are so beautiful! Some things are best appreciated in its complexity.
A rainbow for instance has so many colours. There is a certain level of complexity in it. They are seperate colors yet together its one beautiful rainbow. There is beauty in the rainbow.
Trinity is 1 God but 3 persons. There is more beauty in the Trinity than there is in the Rainbow. Trinity existed before man ever laid eyes on the first rainbow.
There are three characteristics of personality. Every person that exists have these. Mind, will, and emotions. The Spirit of God has all three. He has a mind, Romans 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. He has a will, 1 Corinthians 12:11 But all these that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. He has emotions, Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
I have also noticed in my dealings with this heresy in particular that among those who deny the trinity, there are some who have trouble attributing diety to Jesus Christ. They have no problems accepting Jesus as the son of God. But they have problems accepting that Jesus is God.
Here is some scripture, John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Colossians is a good book to read. Paul was dealing with heresy that attacked the deity of Christ.
Thank you.
Can you please explain in
Hbr 1:5 NKJV - For to which of the angels did He ever say: "You are My Son, Today I have begotten You"? And again: "I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son"?
What the word "begotten" means ? If Jesus is created he cannot have diety. How does begotten ensure diety. I am trying to establish the connection.
What the word "begotten" means ? If Jesus is created he cannot have diety. How does begotten ensure diety. I am trying to establish the connection.
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=10819&commentView=itemComments
A message by Art Katz. It was posted to me earlier in this thread based on a different inquiry, but it's content addresses what you're searching for.
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Can you please explain in Hbr 1:5 NKJV - For to which of the angels did He ever say: "You are My Son, Today I have begotten You"? And again: "I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son"? What the word "begotten" means ? If Jesus is created he cannot have diety. How does begotten ensure diety. I am trying to establish the connection.
Look at that verse in context. It is speaking of what was said by God of Jesus in His incarnate form. He was begotten of Mary through the Holy Spirit. He was born a physical human being. That birth was his "begetting" if you will. Remember Jesus Himself claimed eternal existence just as the Father, "before Abraham was, I am."
To build a bit on what Travis is saying, the context of Hebrews 1:5 is not as much about the "begetting" as it is about how Jesus "Was" made a little lower than the Angels when he became a man in order that he could be the Captain of Our salvation. He "Was" made that way through his giving up his heavenly riches to become poor for our sake.
The issue the Author is trying to establish is to take salvation seriously because he who was made lower than the Angels is to be far more stern in his wrath toward those who would neglect his offer of salvation, past, present and future, than the angels were when they slaughtered people like mad in the old testament.
The reason people ever have a hard time with one verse is because they never try to understand the context in which the verse is being used. Hebrews 1:5 has baffled theologians, I think, because they don't get or even encapsulate what Hebrews 1:1-2:4 is even saying.
Either Jesus Christ is the very begotten, birthed, given life through the Seed of a Father and the seed of a woman, God the Father and Mary the mother, All man and all God or the bible is completely out of kelter and is totally wrong.
There is no salvation, no redemption, no propituation, no wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, no Savior, no God, which satan would love for every one to believe.
In Christ, by the Father and the life of His Son given for all that are called and chosen to be son's of God by the rebirth of the Incorruptable Seed of the Father in us, which is the Very Spirit of Christ Himself, of whom, if you have Him you have the Father and the Holy Spirit also.
Romans 8:9-14 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
In Christ: Phillip
The reason people ever have a hard time with one verse is because they never try to understand the context in which the verse is being used. Hebrews 1:5 has baffled theologians, I think, because they don't get or even encapsulate what Hebrews 1:1-2:4 is even saying.
So true about many many "baffling" passages.
Look at that verse in context. It is speaking of what was said by God of Jesus in His incarnate form. He was begotten of Mary through the Holy Spirit. He was born a physical human being. That birth was his "begetting" if you will. "
Doesn't the doctrine of the Trinity teach that Christ was eternally begotten? or no? John 5:26
quote"Remember Jesus Himself claimed eternal existence just as the Father, "before Abraham was, I am.
A JW could easily make the claim that he is referring to himself as preexisting Abraham and that the text does not deal with eternality
quote"Remember Jesus Himself claimed eternal existence just as the Father, "before Abraham was, I am. A JW could easily make the claim that he is referring to himself as preexisting Abraham and that the text does not deal with eternality
As far as I know there is no one else in the scriptures who spoke like this other than Jesus Christ, and God himself out of the burning bush.
I would think, though I am no scholar, the emphasis was only on Abraham because Jesus was responding to a heart issue about Abraham on the part of his hearers. It would stand to reason that Jesus could have said this about anyone in physical existence. Regardless of eternality, no one precedes him. That is the point. To say before X, I am, is just about either the most broken absurd grammar anyone has ever used, or it means before X, I not only precede, but Am, which implies no beginning and no end. the "am-ness" is a statement that resides outside of the bookends of time.
It is not my intention to demean the questions you are asking or even the questions Jehovah's Witness's are going to ask, but it seems to me that if a person is not willing to understand clear teaching from scripture, and by clear I guess I see that Jesus implication of eternality as clear, that the letter of it will never convince them. When someone has an agenda, that is driven by a motivation to displace the idea of a "Trinity" which is a term that should be used loosely as it is not even a biblical word, it does not seem that much argumentation will convince them.
The cementing of the divinity of Christ and re-iteration of the trinity was a response, as I think has been mentioned in this thread, to Arianism. I believe that if you look up Athanasius on google you will find enough information to piece how all the arguments developed (I may have some of my facts a bit off as it has been a while since I read through all this stuff, though I think John Piper did a good job talking about it on his biographical sketch of Athanasius on D.G.) Most theological structures like the trinity have been developed as a response to heresy. Not necessarily because scripture is blatantly articulate in any one place about the general idea. As Athanasius knew...the kernel of the gospel was about to be swallowed by swine when one denied the divinity of Christ. As a result, lots of study went into the word to grasp the meaning of the Godhead. This was done to insure that the members of the body of Christ would be protected from an idea that could have caused enormous destruction to the furtherance of the gospel.
Sometimes insight into truth occurs when that truth, like a diamond is placed against a velvet black backdrop of lies.
I used to have an interest in debating these kinds of things, and even thought I had good reason to do so, but I have found that no matter how well constructed a biblical argument is, even if it is the clearest most amazingly powerfull truth in the word, people love darkness more than they love light. And if they are not willing to hear what is being said...it does the gospel no good to debate it with them. Truth can never be administered in the presence of pride. Most of these arguments, and even apologetics can be an immense distraction from the calling of God in our lives.
That being said, we ought to be able to destroy arguments that threaten the flocks God gives us. And these kinds of discussions can be healthy to sharpen those swords. But I have found that just seeing people around me develop a thirst for righteousness and the word of God is a million times more important and knee-crackingly challenging than licking an arian in a debate. (Not that I think that is your intention brother, I am only speaking from my own experience.)
What I long to see more of from believers concerning these kinds of issues is a closeness with Christ, an intimacy of relationship, a depth of being so close with the Lord that even as he was close to His Father, when dogs came barking up his tree asking who to give a coin too, we can have the presence of the Holy Spirit in our lives as he did so much due to not quenching Him with the pride of our hearts that we can respond in such a fashion that the dog's are silenced so the sheep can be fed. As in a lot of ways that is what it is all about.
Dog's do get converted, but I would venture to say that from the narrative accounts in scripture it was rare, if ever, that a dog was converted because of any of Jesus' rebuttals to them baring their fangs, at least at the moment of the clash. You will also notice as you study the gospels that when dogs attempted to corner him about things theological in nature...Jesus brandished the sword of the spirit and punctured the core of what their problems were. Which never really seemed to be doctrinal in nature, but were rather, spiritual problems because of pride...lust...envy...bitterness...adultery...jealousy.
I am willing to bet that when lead by the Spirit, it is right to call a man a devil of hell. It is right to tell a sorcerer to have his money burn with him. It is right to pierce through the excuses that every man generates through his cerebral argumentation.
It also seems that one of the principle issues is not the trinity...but faith. As without it, it is impossible to please God, "For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it." -Hebrews 4:2
Jesus ALWAYS resisted the proud, but it was as if his heart melted like butter whenever someone showed an inkling of faith. This is the sword we are to bear brothers and sisters. For us as believers it is important to remember that, "Faith worketh by love." Galatians 5:6
Please understand, I think it is good to know the subject matter. It is just that out of dozens and dozens of discussions with these kinds of people, I have rarely seen fruit come of it. Dogs will always think it is spiritual to win a debate. Christ seems to think it is spiritual when a man's fig leaves are finally removed and he is naked before an Almighty God, humbled and unable to hide a thing from Him.
jowSOC, you may find this statement from Tertullian to be both interesting and enlightening.
Tertullian in his Against Praxeas (c. 213) writes:
"The simple, indeed, (I will not call them unwise and unlearned,) who always constitute the majority of believers, are startled at the dispensation (of the Three in One), on the ground that their very rule of faith withdraws them from the world's plurality of gods to the one only true God..."
Several things stand out in this statement- one, the author was an early Trinitarian who admits that the majority of the early church was not Trinitarian. Two, he still refers to them as believers.
Tertullians writing is in reference to the earliest held position on the Godhead, Modalism. In this form it does not alter the "Modes" which God manifests so it does not directly apply to one claiming the Holy Spirit is not a person. I would inquire as to what is meant by that because misused terminology can quickly start a needless debate. Defining of terms will save a lot of time and maybe even your voice, lol.
Grace and peace!
Thanks for the posts I appreciate it !
hi,i am too old for this topic...God can and has shown Himself in many ways...more than three ...and what about the ten Spirits of God etc. His ways are above our ways.jimp
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