"Mutual Assured Destruction"

Thoughts prompted by a recent thread on “Forum Community” – “Forum Community” thus seems to me, the most appropriate place on JREF, to initiate envisaged new thread – should the moderators think otherwise, they will presumably “move” accordingly.

People now in middle age or above, have spent much of their lives in the “Cold War” era – in which in theory, the thermonuclear holocaust – wiping out for sure, those of us in “the affluent West, and less-affluent East, north of the Equator” – could happen at any moment. In the abovementioned thread – not specifically about this subject – one poster wrote of this consideration having haunted and dogged him throughout his lifetime up to the early 1990s; another wrote re same, “having been there at the time myself, I could never take that nonsense seriously or even believe that anyone else REALLY bought it either”.

Be interesting to hear “takes” from people who lived in that era.

Well Krispy you may be correct on the gnashing teeth part :) I am of neither camp of post or pre or even mid I am a be prepared either way kind of guy, maybe the boy scout in me :) There is mention that 1/3 of the world will be destroyed, a nuke could probably do that I would guess.

God Bless,
Matthew

Pray for pre and prepare for post? Hmmm... let's pray hell doesn't really exist after all too, and have universalism be correct? Not a very good way of doing theology.

Growing up through the cold war age you had one fear Nuclear Holocaust.

Once that has gone new fears have come along....

1. The aids epidemic
2. Famine in Africa
3. Comet coming to destroy the world
4. Rise of Islam
5. Birds flu
6. Tsanami
7. Swine Flu
8. Super Volcanos
9. Global warming
10.Collapse of the banking system
11.2012 prophecy the end of the world

It just seems that there is constant spewing out of things that would cause us to fear.............and from what I notice it's increasing

KJ... you're comparing apples to oranges. Not a good way of making a point.

Krispy

:-)

Mmmmmmm... I disagree. But if my analogy is bad: my point was simply to show that "let's prepare for this while we pray for that" is not a good way to do theology. There is no Biblical basis for this idea. Our doctrines should arise out of a quest to discover and apply the apostles doctrine. Wishy-washy things like this, while having a nice appeal to it, is simply a bad way to do theology.

I'm staunchly post-trib, and while my position is not very emotionally satisfying to me, I in no way ever wish the pre-trib stance to be true. While I can have great fellowship with my pre-trib brethren (whom I believe are greatly misinformed), and can grant them much charity in their position, I in no way hope they are right.

What's not 100% clear is any stand on the tribulation.

I disagree :-)

Wouldn't the better question of "when" is the rapture should be, "what do you believe about Israel and the Church?" Is that a valid question to go along with what you believe on the rapture?

Another thing; many die hard pretribbers and postribbers who argued adamently about their stance are now in the ground awaiting the trumpet sound!!! They still didn't know before they died.

I'd like to hear your stance on post-trib though. From what I've observed of your other posts, your quite a student of the Bible, and I think many on this site, including myself, are quite teachable and receptive to sound Biblical exposition. If you can shed some light on your stance I'd love to read it, as being said, so far I'm not a hard hitter for any of the three (yet).

I'll be happy to put something together over the next week or so that outlines my position on the issue. I'm actually doing a series on my discipleship website that talks about discovering God's purpose for our lives, and in that, I eventually plan on making a case for a post-trib rapture, simply based on properly understanding what God's purposes for the church happen to be. Sign up for my newsletter, and you'll get a notification of when that bigger essay is done.

However, in the next few days for the purpose of this discussion, I'll post something on the forums briefly about the issue. I'll put it in a seperate thread, so, be looking out for it :-)

The answer depends mainly on the person. As a child I always watched the news with my dad. He also watched a lot of documentaries on war. The idea of thermonuclear war was a daily high-level concern for me from the mid 70's to around 1988 or 89. This means it affected my entire childhood and teen years.

They say that ignorance is 'bliss'. Well, I was not ignorant of the threat. As a child we would be rushed down into what were called, 'Fallout shelters'. The orange and black sign over the door guided the path to the spot where we would crouch down with our heads between our legs and our hands over our head.

Living out in the country I was aware of many Minute-Man Missile silos. These concrete underground bunkers housed one missile each capable of reaching the Soviet Union with multiple warheads- each of which the yield was adjustable in flight. Every time we passed I just prayed the door would not come open as we passed by.

The EMERGENCY BROADCAST SYSTEM used to interrupt the radio and Television sending shockwaves of fear through me as a child. Many kids just kept playing, but I knew what the test was for. I waited to hear the words, "THIS IS ONLY A TEST." If it had not been a test you would have been instructed where to tune or where to go in your area, etc.

Having seen videos such as the ones in Trinity and Beyond I knew that a Nuclear Blast meant total vaporization of those near ground zero. The flame front would then proceed (depending on yield) to burn everything up for the next 50 miles in diameter. The flesh would be consumed before the bones could hit the ground.

Living in MO not too far from Whiteman and other high value targets (nuclear parts plants, airforce bases, minuteman missile silos,etc.) made me wonder every time I saw the sky littered with vapor trails whether or not the missiles had been launched. I knew what the Bible had said along these lines and I took it seriously. Many others things I could say, but there is not enough room in these forums to rightly express what it was like to live under the constant fear of Thermonuclear War. I kept my mind a lot more sober than my friends. For those that have not seen the 80's movie 'War Games' it may give a slight taste of what it was like.

Hey KJ... you said your hope is that your pre-trib friends are wrong. Why?

Because I don't believe the pre-trib theory to be true, therefore, I don't hope for it to come to pass anymore than I hope for hell to not be the everlasting fate of the wicked. I know you say that such an analogy is comparing apples to oranges. But I disagree. Both positions are clearly taught in the Scriptures to me. I've been post-tribulational in my view since about 8 or 9 years of my 11 years as a Christian. It's never been a very complicated thing for me to see and grasp.

Some might say that is arrogant to come down dogmatically on a post-trib position. But it is no more arrogant to come down dogmatically about such a thing than it is any other doctrine of Scripture. Just because some people have a fuzzy view of the last days and are a little confused about the topic doesn't mean I cannot be dogmatic about it. I could be wrong, and I pray that I'm not. But so far as I've seen, I have little to no reason to doubt my stance. I'm not arrogant for being dogmatic about a literal resurrection am I? Then why is it arrogant to be a firm believer about other doctrinal positions?

So in a nutshell, I only hope for those things that I believe are true. I hope the post-trib view is right, because I believe it to be true :-)

Just some friendly thoughts...

And by the way, because of my work schedule I probably won't be able to address this issue fully until the weekend. :-)

The eschatological view I rarely hear is one in which all true Christians are martyred under the reign of AntiChrist and therefor the judgment on the world is not upon believers, but on those that destroyed the universal Temple of believers. The whole not one stone on another thing that happened in AD 70 just being a shadow of the Church being thrown down one believer at a time. This would make the souls under the altar make sense. This is not God's wrath- it is the wrath of Satan. At any rate I think we need to be ready for whatever happens. If it's the Rapture or beheading- we just need to be ready.

Well, I remember this era very well since I was born in 1947. Current events were much discussed at school, home and with other acquaintances. We were all so very concerned.

My memory of it began when Russia launched the sputnik and the USA rushed into the space race - it was just too embarrassing to allow Russia to get ahead of the the USA. This fierce competition, however, did not begin with Russia's launching of their sputnik.

Then they got to talking about the possibility of the USSR nuking the USA. Before too long entrepreneurs were marketing bomb shelters, preying on the fears of the masses. Russian Premier Khrushchev did not help matters any by declaring they will bury the USA by 1973. And so we were all scared. Real scared.

The civil rights movement heated up during the 60's. At the same time the US became embroiled in the Vietnam War. Protesters of this engagement took to the streets, rioting, demonstrations, burning buildings using the Molotov cocktails to ignite their fires. Sometimes it was confusing who was rioting about what. Besides the rioting there were boycotts against businesses who some NAACP leaders thought were discriminating against blacks.

The experts informed us many of these movements were incited by communists or were trained by them.

It was a civil war in the US - regardless what your liberal historians say. It was a fearful time. I promise.

On the social front you had the hippie movement impacting the mores of the young. Free-love was being promoted - all aided and abetted by the introduction of the birth control pill. The use of the pill meant females were now liberated from the fear of pregnancy so they could engage in recreational sex, like the males. Some religious experts also declared the rise of rampant immorality was a part of the communists agenda to bring down the USA - destroy their moral fiber and then we will win!

Believe it or not, but Ronald Reagan's presidency seemed to have a calming effect on a nation that was in turmoil in the preceding years. It was nice to see students taking their education seriously...

After taking this trip down memory lane I am left wondering at God's mercy on our nation as a whole....

Does this answer any questions?

ginnyrose

At any rate I think we need to be ready for whatever happens. If it's the Rapture or beheading- we just need to be ready

I have used Roberts quote, but this post is not directed at Robert but at anyone who would listen..........

There is a move of God coming, when that move comes the primary goal of the move will be to prepare a people who'll be able to live, challenge and confront the anti christ...........

At the end of the tribualtion but before God's wrath is poured out, we find a people Rev 15:2 and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name.

Your primary goal as a believer will be...Do not submit in any shape or form to the antichrist, but to live a clean life, a Holy life being led by the Holy Spirit.....If you do this then you will be classed as one of the victorious people and will sing the song of Moses and the lamb by the sea of glass..........

Please don't fear for God has a plan and he will prepare his people for whats ahead...........

Wouldn't the better question of "when" is the rapture should be, "what do you believe about Israel and the Church?" Is that a valid question to go along with what you believe on the rapture?

And these debaters will likely follow their brethren who

are now in the ground awaiting the trumpet sound!!!

:-)

Fyi... my computer crashed and is in the shop. Looks like my essay will be delayed as writing an essay on a Droid phone will be a practical impossibility

Though the geek in me wants to try anyway. Especially since my droid has voice recognition technology.

Are we saved from His wrath, or are we not?

Krispy: Used to be a J.R. Church, Hal Lindsey, "Left Behind" type guy all the way myself. But there were some scriptural things that just never quite fit right in my mind. Then I read a perspective that could best be described as a "pre-wrath" resurrection with no "special" rapture taking place before the resurrection. I do believe in two resurrections. One of the just and one of the unjust. I have put some time into thinking and studying the issue, but have not touched it for the last few years and so would have to dig quite a bit to give a good opinion. I will have to get with a friend and let you know the name of the book. It was very well based and the conclusions were very exegetical in nature.

My wife used to show the old "tribulation" movies to the kids in her kid's church classes. Does anyone remember the UNITE vans driving around? I think "A Distant Thunder" might have been one of the movie titles. They were basically the Left Behind movies of the early 80's. She said later that she never even thought that it might give children nightmares since the acting seem to her pretty hokey. :-) haha

There are definitely scriptures that could possibly be interpreted as the result of nuclear war. As to total destruction of the earth this way, I don't think it squares with scripture. As to Syria and some of the other Arab nations being destroyed this way? Recall the burden of Damascus. It is one of the oldest continuously occupied cities in the world yet there is a time coming when noone will live there. It will be a sterile place never to be inhabited again. The result of a nuclear explosion??? Who knows?