Madam Guyon

"I am deeply grieved that so many in this present day, even some good people , allow themselves to be led astray by the enemy. Hasn't God warned us against " false prophets and lying wonders of the last days?" All true prophets have spoken in the name of the Lord "Thus says the Lord." The enemy gains great advantage because people love extra-ordinary manifestations, signs and wonders. I believe the inordinate love of external signs is used of the enemy to draw people away from the Word of God and from the inward way of faith. The signs that come from God encourage you to die to yourself. Manifestations that come from God will humble, quiet and edify you. Elijah appeared alone among four hundred prophets of Baal. These prophets were all stirred up and were attracting much attention by their loud prophesying's. But when Elijah was told by the angel that he would se the Lord on mount Horeb, he went out and hid in a cave and he saw the earth tremble. God was not there. Then came the whirlwind. God was not there. Then there came a gentle little breeze. God was in the still , small voice.

The only true and safe revelationi is an inward revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ in the quiet of your spirit. " My sheep hear my voice." This does not take away from your freedom or the natural operation of your mind. Instead a beautiful harmony between you and God is the result. " (Intimacy With Christ pg 21-22, Jeanne Guyon)

"If my love could help comfort you it would, for I feel a tender sympathy for you beyond words. I am more certain than ever that God wants you entirely for Himself. Live in a state of complete reconcilliation as much as possible. Do not dwell on coldness, temper or contemptuous conduct of anyone. The actions of others should not determine your conduct. All that should concern you is glorifying God.

Endure your problems out of love for Christ, who preferred grief to pleasure. Also, do not violate your conscience to please anyone. Consider your present situation as a way to show God that you love HIm through a willingness to sacrifice yourself. Dont reject the cross9 or should I say the crown) Let all this be settled between you and God in a quiet manner in your closet so that no one sees your inward struggles. As you bear the cross daily-and it is a true crucifixtion-I am sure God will sustain you out of His great love. God is with you: therefore all that befalls you is equally good. God loves you, let this fix everything." (Intimacy With Christ pg 29, Jeanne Guyone)

HI Goldminer, there was a reason the Catholics locked her up in the Bastille :) ...........brother Frank

"Be assured that God does not invade the unwilling soul and overpower the believer. The turmoil you experience is your resistance to what God is seeking to accomplish. When you let go of all that is standing in His way, you will find yourself swept into Him. This is what is called death to self: but this term is really a contradiction because when this happens, your spirit can never be more alive. Your spirit then lives the true life of God.

As your will is lost in God's will you still have purposes, but these purposes are God's desires within you and have nothing to do with yourself. God reigns from the center of your spirit, and everything that is not of HIm dissolves in HIs presence. As you pass into fuller union with God you are changed and transformed by Him.

As you are made more Christlike, you begin to take on HIs qualities. One of these qualities is that of wanting fellowship with others who are on the same journey as you. It is somewhat like a stream which flows into a river. From that point on, it flows wherever the river flows."
(Intimacy with Christ-pg 47, Jeanne Guyon)

"This is RUBBISH!
Mortification is the realization that I am crucified with Christ, not turning inward.

Her books are a very subtle road into mysticism. I know I have written very crudely and with little reasoning or analysis. Discernment is not just a the ability to express good apologetics, but also a gift of the Spirit."
Narrowpath

Narrowpath: You could not be more correct. Thank you. It is dangerous rubbish also, that has destroyed perhaps millions of seekers who have fallen into the ditch of this PAGAN, DEMONIC mindset.

Below are some of my comments, intermingled, but mostly the most scholarly efforts of G. Richard Fisher, of PERSONAL FREEDOM OUTREACH. All statements are researched and noted.

Jeanne Guyon was not a Christian by faith, nor was she ever born again by the Holy Spirit of God. She was a mystic that believed God was in us all, and that we could and should find Him within.

She believed in sinless perfection attained through her bizzare devotion. If she was a champion of anything, she was a champion of pagan ascetism , in the extreme forms of it.

At 19 she met a priest who told her: “It is, madame, because you seek without what you have within. Accustom yourself to seek God in your heart, and you will there find Him.”

Guyon wrote of no conversion, only a presupposition that Christ was always in her heart.

Thus she started her incredible lifelong journey within. She responded to the Lord,

“Thou wast in my heart, and demanded only a simple turning of my mind inward, to make me perceive Thy presence. ... The kingdom of God is within you.”...Guyon

Guyon, thinking that God had always been in her heart, also believed that the fire would “devour all that was left of self” and that here would be no more “troublesome faults or reluctances,” bringing about a perfect, sinless state of life.

While she warned of the dangers of visions, dreams and ecstasies, her only rule for evaluating such experiences was “The Giver alone must be our object and aim.” She had little regard for the biblical Christ, settling for what she called Christ “in the center of the soul, a construct of her own imagination.

In her autobiography, Guyon wrote that “divine wisdom is unknown.” She made no attempt to speak of God’s revelation of Himself in nature and creation (Psalm 19:1, Romans 1:1) and the specific revelation of God in Jesus Christ and His Word.

She taught that we can know of God by “passing forward into God,”.. going into a mindless, meditative state where we can get in touch with the Christ within the self, merge with that Christ and be lifted into ecstasy.

The school of mysticism that Guyon adhered to, sometimes called Quietism, was an extreme form of Roman Catholic mysticism that emphasized the cleansing of one’s inner life and included the belief that one could see Christ visibly. Before Guyon’s day, in the Middle Ages, this took strange forms in erotic “bride mysticism” with some visionaries believing they were married to Jesus.

Guyon and the Quietists went further, into something called essence mysticism. They believed that their being was merged with God’s being and the two became one. This unbiblical idea survives today in the New Age and other non-Christian religions.

It was this extreme, manic form of devotion that eventually caused her troubles, and condemnantion by the Catholic church. Quietism, or in Guyon's mind, becoming a burning bush of God [from within], consumed her life as a Catholic, and the nature of the movement wrested control and power out from the Vatican.

The Papal hierarchy could not have society buzzing around in silent mindlessness, and thereby rejecting the tenets of the MASS, CONFESSION, AND TITHE....so...she was condemned as a heretic.

She claimed to lose self-will, becoming reclusive and believing she had been absorbed into God’s being. She wrote of things like death of the senses and the death of understanding, equating union with Christ with some kind of mystical, inner-death experience.

When Guyon did refer to Scripture, she distorted it to teach something about an inner, meditative state. Guyon’s problem was that she was absorbing the writings and teachings of the mystics of that day.

One such mystic was Jesuit Francois Fenelon (1651-1715). At the request of the Pope, Fenelon burned his writings to stay in favor with Rome. Guyon would face prison over hers.

Guyon’s mystical mindlessness, her intermittent deification and perfectionistic ideas need to be exposed and rejected.Guyon’s beliefs do not even come close to biblical Christianity.

What she proposes is sheer essence mysticism and Catholicism mutated into even more horrible errors. That man could become like God was one of the first lies held out by Satan to Adam and Eve (Genesis 3 :1-7).

This is an exert of an article by G. Richard Fisher;

"MADAME GUYON"....COUNTERING THE MYTH OF DEIFICATION AND SINLESS PERFECTION.;

This is intermingled with some of my comments...and the entire article, with EXTENSIVE FOOTNOTES AND DOCUMENTATION may be found at ....,,,http://www.pfo.org/mguyon.htm

[thank you-Richard Fisher]

"It is important to be very careful and compassionate in correcting others. Speak only when you are alone with a person, and then do it only as you sense it to be God's timing. As you are not free from faults yourself, do not expect too much from others. Be humble and childlike and others will be better able to hear what you have to say. Jesus was full of compassion and long suffering. He patiently accepted his less than perfect disciples, even Judas, without anger, bittereness or coldness.

How lovely Jesus was. He " did not break the bruised reed." He does not rule by tyranny-neither should his followers. His people should use no heavy-handedness in dealing with others, but should say with John "Behold the Lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world."

The Lord "rejoiced in spirit," in a way that we find nowhere else in Scripture when He said " I thank you Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hid these things from the wise and prudent, and revealed them to babes," How happy and relaxed we are in the presence of a little child, for a child does not instill fear in us, It is in this childlike spirit of meekness, compassion and innocence that we should seek to help others."
(Intimacy with Christ, Jeanne Guyone)

"There is a balance between the spiritual experience we have with Christ and the written Word of Christ. Neither will contradict the other. That is why she [Guyon] was led out of the falsehood of the Catholic church."

JB1968...

JB, She was never "led" out of the Catholic church. She remained a Catholic until her death, at 70. Her rejection by the Roman Catholic Church was based on a hyper Catholic doctrine called Quietism, where she sought a sinless perfected state of total possession by the inward Christ,[ and the one she apparently believed dwells in all men...]....and believed she had attained it.

Bishop Fenelon, a RCC biggie and a fellow mystic "friend" of Guyon, was also brought before the carpet together at the Vatican for the same brand of occult, radical "Catholic" mysticism. He repented and burnt his writings, while Guyon hung on defiantly, and was sentenced to [ served ] 7 years in prison.

She remained loyal to the RCC after her imprisonment until her death. She was never born again, [from her own account of her "conversion" ] and suffered imprisonment rather than repent of her mystic faith; a radical Babylonian offshoot of Catholic asceticism.

"If the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed." When the old man of sin is destroyed and the new man is established within you, you experience a new freedom. As a bird let loose from its cage, you go out. totally free. to dwell in immeasurable hieght and depth and bredth of God.

The old self life blinds you in every way so that God is not able to abide there and is deprived of what is really His. When Paul asked, " Who shall deliver me from this body of death," he added " I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord." When, by God's grace, Jesus is given His rightful place in your heart, you will be delivered.

When such deliverence came, Paul cried out in wonder " I live, and yet not I, Christ lives in me." He was no longer interested in himself, but in this new man, Jesus Christ, who had come to live and act in him. He was steered by Christ, just as you steer the course of your body, If someone else sat at the controls of your body, the body would obey this new conductor. This conductor, would engineer the body's operations. Likewise, Jesus Christ is the life your new man lives by. And who is more free and more expansive than Jesus? His nature is divine, eternal, and without bounds.

So you can see how tragically you will be imprisoned if you cling to the old self. When you look at the freedom and spaciousness that come from living in Jesus, you then want to let that serpant of self be crushed underfoot by Christ. Then the life of God may ( as in the first creation) bring you life.

This freedom to be carried about on eagle's wings brings you into the heart of God. The dove that rested on Jesus was a symbol , not only of innocence, but also of freedom. Jesus gives your spirit the freedom to soar and dwell in God. May it please God to let you experience this wonderful freedom. Give your old self up and you will find unspeakable freedom in the one who is All in All."
"Intimacy in Christ-pg 15-16, Jeanne Guyon"

Extreme caution recommended with this persons teachings.
in my opinion It does not jive with the Bible.

AbideinHim writes......

"It is also noted that great Christian leaders like Watchman Nee, Hudson Taylor, Andrew Murray, Jesse Penn-Lewis uphold Madame Guyon in high regard for her life and contribution to the Christian Body."

Ah, two of my favorite people from the past, Hudson Taylor (The Spiritual secret of Hudson Taylor is a must read) and Andrew Murray who knew a thing or two about surrender and death to self :) Lets not forget about Tozer, one of my favorite authors, he also held her in high regard. Of course none of that really matters. If you read what I have posted of her, you see some very orthodox words........ brother Frank

"O when the heart is gained by Christ, how easily is evrything else corrected! This is why God requires the heart above all things. By this means alone, by Christ dwelling in the heart, we could destroy the dreadful sins that often continue among new converts , such as drinking, lust, resentment, selfishness, anger, unforgiveness. Jesus Christ would reign everywhere in peace and the face of the church would be renewed throughout." ( Jeanne Guyon)

I would just like to point out that the above notion is anti-Catholic. The notion that Christ dwelt in one's heart would be foriegn to Catholics. Christ, to them, dwells in the Eucharist, and He does so by trans-substansiation. This is why they believe that to make your first holy communion is to be born again, because your taking Jesus into your heart through a piece of bread that the priest has power over. And it has to be done again and again and to not do it means that one has commited a mortal sin which sends one to hell.

"Simply teach new converts to seek God in their heart, to think of Him continually, to return to him whenever they have wandered from Him, and to suffer all things with a single eye to please HIm. When you do this, you lead their soul to the source of all grace and enable them to find there everything necessary for sanctification." (Jeanne Guyon)

Now, to those who truly know Catholic doctrine, they will realize that above statement could easily get you burned in that day, never mind imprisoned. You see, the statement above strikes at the very heart of Catholicism and rejects it totaly. As many know, Catholics believe one has to be sanctified before one can be justified, the exact opposite of wht genuine Christians believe. And furthermore, sanctification to a Catholic comes through the sacraments which are administered by the priests alone. The above notion that everything that is "necessary for sanctification,' can be found in the heart, where Christ dwells in a believer, undermines the whole Catholic system and renders the priest and the priestly system null and void...............brother Frank

"All that is of your doing, all that comes from your life-even your most exalted prayer-must first be destroyed before union can come about. All the prayers that proceed from your mind are merely preparations for bringing you to a passive state; any and all active contemplation on your part is also just preparation for bringing you to a passive state. They are preparations. They are not the end. They are a way to the end. The end is union with God!"
—Madame Guyon - Experiencing Union with God Through Inner Prayer "

No, No, No. This is NOT biblical. This is NOT Christian, This is NOT the Holy Spirit. This is more eastern religion than anything.

And if this is her premise for knowing God then she is teaching
a significant falsehood that will lead one astray.

Hi NarrowPath...you write...

"In all her writings about these spiritual exercises, subtly the self is actually still the chief obsession. "

Can I ask if you have ever read any of her books? I only ask because what you have written above is the exact opposite of what she writes about. Perhaps Tozer and Wesley and Zinzendorf and Murrey and Wesley may have missed the sublties you speak of? Can you give examples, that are not cut and pasted from critics sites, that would back up your assersions that she was obsessed with her own self? Here is a quote form a previous post on this thread, which I suspect are not being read by some, but I could be wrong........

"So you can see how tragically you will be imprisoned if you cling to the old self. When you look at the freedom and spaciousness that come from living in Jesus, you then want to let that serpant of self be crushed underfoot by Christ. Then the life of God may ( as in the first creation) bring you life.' ......... brother Frank

John Wesley said of her : ".... But she had naturally a most fertile imagination, together with vast impetuosity of spirit. Hence, she rushed forward, taking everything for Divine which was strongly impressed upon her ; whereas much of it was from her own spirit, and much from the grand deceiver. It is true, the anointing of the Holy One taught her of all things which were necessary to her salvation. But it pleased God to leave her to her own judgment in things of a less important nature. Inward impressions, which she called-inspirations, were her primary rule. The written Word was not a lantern to her feet, a light in all her paths. No ; she followed another light—the outward light of her confessors, and the inward light of her own spirit. It is true she wrote many volumes upon the Scriptures. But she read them not to learn, but to teach ; and therein was hurried by the rapid stream of her overflowing imagination. Hence arose that capital mistake, which runs through all her writings, that God never does, never can purify a soul but by inward and outward suffering. This unscriptural notion led her into the unscriptural practice of bringing suffering upon herself, by bodily austerities; by giving away her estate to ungodly, unthankful relations ; by not justifying herself—than which nothing could be more unjust or uncharitable. ."

Hi Rev,
I like your quote from Wesley, it says a lot. What it does not say was that she was a pagan demoniac which has been stated on this thread.

"Hence arose that capital mistake, which runs through all her writings, that God never does, never can purify a soul but by inward and outward suffering.'

I personally have never known God to purify a soul in any other way, in any other refining fire, than the refining fire of sufferings, trial and tribulations. To me, this is the process of death to self and sanctifications. Now, the sufferings cannot come from yourself, they cannot be self-inflicted, the Lord knows who we are and what we need. Indeed, I believe that is why revival tarries because men so resist the true methods of sanctification.

Mal 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
Mal 3:3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.

"It is true, the anointing of the Holy One taught her of all things which were necessary to her salvation. But it pleased God to leave her to her own judgment in things of a less important nature."

Is this not true of us all?

"Hence, she rushed forward, taking everything for Divine which was strongly impressed upon her ; whereas much of it was from her own spirit"

I have no great problem with that, we live in a rational day and age where God is no-where to be seen in the lives of men. Oh that all men of God would see every aspect of their lives , flow from the throne, whether good or bad.

Do I agree with everything Wesley or Nee or any of these men of God say? Of course not. Do I confine men who deny the power of God in the sign gifts to the pits of hell? No, not that presuptious. Can there be much to be learned from Guyon and other men and woman of God, yes I say that there can. I have learned much from anabaptists and Moravians, these very people were hunted and killed as heretics by the reformers. Can you imagine, beautiful people of God living exemplary lives, hunted down and burned at the stake by those of the Reformation. Can you see my point Rev? It is a beautiful thing when we walk simply under the Lord Jesus and in the beauty of His holiness. When we pursue Him with all of our hearts and souls and seek to know Him more deeply and seek to become more like our Lord Jesus every day. On that I am sure that we can agree. Perhaps we will have to agree to disagree on Guyon. But isn't it a beautiful thing when two brothers can do that without writing the other one of? God bless you Rev and may we both draw close unto Him and may our passion for Him increase as we go along the way..........brother Frank

Hi JB,

This freedom from sin is a glorious thing. No longer slaves to sin. Our reactions to our sufferings is directly related to where we are in the Lord. When we can rejoice in them, we know that we are close to the heart of God. Consider the old Hymn, "Near to the heart of God."

There is a place of quiet rest,
\tnear to the heart of God;
\ta place where sin cannot molest,
\tnear to the heart of God.
Refrain:
\tO Jesus, blest Redeemer,
\tsent from the heart of God,
\thold us who wait before thee
\tnear to the heart of God.

2.\tThere is a place of comfort sweet,
\tnear to the heart of God;
\ta place where we our Savior meet,
\tnear to the heart of God.
\t(Refrain)

3.\tThere is place a place of full release,
\tnear to the heart of God;
\ta place where all is joy and peace,
\tnear to the heart of God.

Oh the joy and the comfort, near to the heart of God. I would say to all my brothers and sisters, press in, press in, near to the heart of God. A place where offence is not taken, near to the heart of God. A place where sin does not molest, near to the heart of God. The knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus is a glorious thing. Joy, glorious joy, near to the heart of God. Joy in our salvation, joy in the illumination of the majesty of Jesus, the glory of God the Father. Sin has been conquered, we can walk in the glory of Romans 6, in the shadow of Romans 7 and in the freedom of Romans 8.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8d4NkNI5zY

Man, when I first looked at this thread it had like 2 views, now close to 40 in only a short period of time.

I'll probably have to state what the other member said that, with this post, I don't put myself in the greatest position for making friends on this thread.

It's troubling to see that when error in light of the Word of God is brought up, people are quick to jump on the blessing bandwagon. This don't knock it because I had personal revelation by this, or don't touch what I've been blessed by attitude is dangerous ground. This is the exact same retort you see from proponents of the strange fire revivals in Pensacola, Toronto, Brownsville, etc etc. If you bring up how the un-Biblical has been either blatantly or subtly mixed in with the truth, and they have no Scriptural argument, they will ALWAYS resort to the blessing they received. "Brother I was blessed! Isn't that enough proof that it's of God?" Sorry, that's not enough proof. The fact that we were blessed by, or think we were blessed by something does not validate whether it is good, sound, and of God. Only when something is lined up side by side with the Word of God can we come to any validation. Remember, in Exodus God had said he would give the children of Israel the blessing without His presence?

Now, I was aware of this lady's name before, but until this thread was started I was completely ignorant of any of her writings. That being said, almost as soon as I started looking into some of what she was saying, it struck me that there was something a bit off here. Sure, some of it is sound enough, but some of the other stuff....

What we have is a mixture. From the principles that were laid down by God in the Bible, I think that they're should be no doubt in our mind what God thinks of mixtures. Just look at the law of Moses and how God even in the smallest things detested mixtures. It should speak volumes on how He holds up truths in light of errors.

O that ye knew how God is wiser than man! Then would you drop Quietists and Mystics together, and at all hazards keep to the plain, practical, written word of God.

When Wesley said this he smacked that nail right on top of the head. When we look at anyone who is presenting a teaching or a reflection, and we have to sit there and sift through it with the Bible saying things like, "oh this lines up with the Scriptures, oh but this doesn't so we'll forget that, and oh here's a good piece, oh but here's more error to overlook, oh and another one, etc etc" Why not just stick to the Bible in the first place? I'm not going to sit here and tell everyone that the only book they should ever read is the Bible, but when we have to sift so heavily through teachings to glean some truth that the Bible has already presented to us, this just seems a bit odd. And if the truths that are gained were in the Bible to begin with, why do we need to be presented with a mixture to expound on what the Bible already says? I don't care if there is solid truth in there, it's still mixed with error. It's like receiving surgery with dirty tools, or a vaccination from an un-sterile needle. It might fill the moments need, and we might feel good about the initial results, but what problems might arise in the future?

So honestly I don't care two bits for whatever blessing a person has from something or whatever personal revelation is given about anything. Unless it dances to the FULL tune that the Word of God's playing, I'm not dancing with it. No matter how thirsty I am, I won't drink a mixture of 99% water and 1% arsenic.

Hi Everest, I gonna guess your a young guy :) And you have admitting you have never read a single book of this particular author, now this is what I would say is real error, letting other people shape your opinions, I would strongly advise against that.

You seem to be suggesting by your last statement some kind of infallibility on your part in regard to your own personal believes, are you saying that there is no error in what you believe or in your interpreataion of the Word? Perhaps some clarification.

"but when we have to sift so heavily through teachings to glean some truth that the Bible has already presented to us, this just seems a bit odd. And if the truths that are gained were in the Bible to begin with, why do we need to be presented with a mixture to expound on what the Bible already says?" Who is the "we," brother, by your own admission, you have not sifted through anything.

Are you arguing a case that we should not read any books? You have already admitted that you have never read anything of Guyon, so the sifting cannot be a reference to her, because you would not know how heavy the sifitng would have to be, right? Or am I missing the point? Are you saying that if a man,a pastor or an author is 1% wrong in what he believes and teaches, then you would not read or listen to him?

"If you bring up how the un-Biblical has been either blatantly or subtly mixed in with the truth, and they have no Scriptural argument, they will ALWAYS resort to the blessing they received."

Now that is a truly sad statement, as so many on sermonindex, including myself, have written so strongly against these so called revivals. So I guess what you are saying is, that if you have actually read this womans books, or Tozers or anyone else's and you find them to be Biblical and you are blessed by them, but you do not agree, then the one's that you disagree with are in the same camp as Todd Bentley and company? Am I coming close to what you are saying? Please correct me if I am wrong..........brother Frank

Amen Learn: I offer this for your consideration.
.................................................

"I like your quote from Wesley, it says a lot. What it does not say was that she was a pagan demoniac which has been stated on this thread."....Appolus

Wicked error may have different terms applied to it, but this one certainly fits with this lady. She was Pagan, and demonic.

The methodology she used to attain her her elevated states of bliss were inherit in the Priesthood of Baal for millenia before Christ's advent in the Pagan Nations of the EARTH, as it was practiced in Rome before Christ, and yet today. It is called "Contemplative prayer", or "Meditative Prayer .

It was not lost with time, but carried by a different wardrobe, as these very men marched through as small stream outside their new headquarters, ROME, and proclaimed themselves to be baptized into Christ, and the HOLY ROMAN UNIVERSAL CHURCH, and continued their worship clothed in scarlet under the exact same Papal order as was before Egypt.

It was the fuel burned in all of the monasteries for thousands of years, and Fundamentally, it was centered around finding God inwardly, in the center of your being. The precise practices are used today all over the EAST. In India, especially..[ Bhudda was a master of this practice, and reportedly founded a sister religion...there our many branches..] and the state that Guyon reached is today called Nirvana.

It is practiced today, and spread as a true path to Jesus. It is not, but a woeful counterfeit, and will lead you to Hell if you are absorbed by it, and do not repent.

...Nirvana: The complete cessation of suffering; a blissful state attained through realization of no-self; enlightenment.

["The school of mysticism that Guyon adhered to, sometimes called Quietism, was an extreme form of Roman Catholic mysticism that emphasized the cleansing of one’s inner life and included the belief that one could see Christ visibly.

Before Guyon’s day, in the Middle Ages, this took strange forms in erotic “bride mysticism” with some visionaries believing they were married to Jesus. Guyon and the Quietists went further, into something called essence mysticism.

They believed that their being was merged with God’s being and the two became one. This unbiblical idea survives today in the New Age and other non-Christian religions." ]...G. Richard Fisher

The state of consciousness attained by Guyon, and the other mystics, including the yoga's and current priests of this satanic practice, attain similar experience, finding union with God inwardly.

As far as it being demonic, if the Holy Spirit of God is not orchestrating this revelation...[ it is blasphemous to think so..] the WHO IS? I submit to you that indeed, demons do.

"Guyon’s description of absorption into God sounds a lot like self-hypnosis. She claimed to lose self-will, becoming reclusive and believing she had been absorbed into God’s being. She wrote of things like death of the senses and the death of understanding, equating union with Christ with some kind of mystical, inner-death experience. G. Richard Fisher.. ....pages 84-85 in her autobiography

Where is the Cross of Christ , the gospel, the doctrines of the apostles in this? It is pagan aseticism, as it has always been, and prohibited by scripture.

Asceticism : Of or relating to ascetics; characterized by rigorous self-denial or self-discipline; austere; abstinent; involving a withholding of physical pleasure.

And the bible commenting:

Collosians 2:20-23
"Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21"Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? 22These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings.

23.Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence."

Below is an account of Guyon's "walk" with Christ; you decide.

"Guyon wrote that she ate and slept little after joining the New Catholics. Perhaps this weakened state contributed to her loss of emotional control and a belief that she was in direct contact with Jesus Christ. .....Scientists today understand much about the chemical effects on the brain from sleep deprivation.

Jay Adams alerts us to the physical and mental problems associated with sleep loss, among which can be perceptual difficulties and hallucinations. He connects sleep loss with the bizarre manifestations reported in the Middle Ages:

“If in the ascetic life early morning prayer was combined with late night vigils, there is little wonder that many early mystics saw what they thought were visions and heard what they supposed were revelations from God.

Since they held a strong belief in present direct revelation and miracles, it is not surprising that the perceptual disturbances resulting from sleep loss that brought about hallucinations often took the form of (or were interpreted as) revelations.

A study of the practices of the ascetics forces one to conclude that it was probably sin against their bodies, rather than holiness derived from ascetic practices, that was at the bottom of the mysticism so often associated with hermits, monastics, and others.”27

Guyon expressed her creed this way:

“Perfect poverty, by the total privation of everything that was mine, both inwardly and outwardly. Perfect obedience to the will of the Lord, submission to the church.”28...[Fisher]

What Guyon found while under La Combe [a hermit mentor who founded a sect called "THE NEW CATHOLICS" [..who she was later accused of immorality with, and served prison time for...] were altered states of consciousness. She perfected her self-hypnosis and moved into extremes that can only be described as a delusion of self-sanctification:

“So was my soul lost in God, who communicated to it His qualities, having drawn it out of all that it had of its own. ... Oh, happy poverty, happy loss, happy nothingness, which gives no less than God Himself in His own immensity, no more circumscribed to the limited manner of the creature but always drawing it out of that, to plunge it wholly into His own divine essence.”[pages 231-234 of her autobiography.]...pg. 239 also]..G. R. Fisher
.....................................................................................................................

"Here's another question I have. How come many are more afraid of holiness of heart and life than they are of sin?"

"Concerning Madam Guyon's conversion she tells about it in chapter 8 in her autobiography published by Moody Press. In chapter 10 she tells of the fruit of her conversion. It was a change of life. She broke with sinful living."....JB1968
............................................................................................................................
What conversion? She was schooled by a wicked cloister of demonic impostors, as it is today.

Jeanne Guyon was not a Christian by faith, nor was she ever born again by the Holy Spirit of God. She was a mystic that believed God was in us all, and that we could and should find Him within.

She believed in sinless perfection attained through her bizarre devotion. If she was a champion of anything, she was a champion of pagan asceticism , in the extreme forms of it.

"At 19 she met a priest who told her: “It is, madame, because you seek without what you have within. Accustom yourself to seek God in your heart, and you will there find Him.”

Guyon wrote of no conversion, only a presupposition that Christ was always in her heart.

Thus she started her incredible lifelong journey within. She responded to the Lord,

“Thou wast in my heart, and demanded only a simple turning of my mind inward, to make me perceive Thy presence. ... The kingdom of God is within you.”...Guyon..
..G. Richard Fisher..
"The mindless mysticism of Madame Guyon"

Afraid of holiness? Breaking from outward forms of sin certainly do not create holiness, especially if one turned towards demons to fill their void. Guyon was this; lost.

The fact that many ministers endorse her, or much of the European evangelical leaders is irrelevant. I suppose one could be edified transposing her syrupy, flowery rhetoric into their mode of faith, but that certainly does not endorse her as a biblical, holy or Christian model.

She is not, nor ever was, but did well in describing the anti-Christ Nirvana like emotions she experienced in her trance like states. All of the Catholic Transcendentalists did the same, and were just as deceived.

Eerdmans’ Handbook to the History of Christianity [ page 498]..reminds us of the other errors of mysticism:

“In seventeenth century France the Quietists, Monsieur de Molinos, Madame Guyon and Archbishop Fenelon, condemned human effort. They believed that, to attain perfection, man must be passive. He must abandon himself to God to the extent that he does not even care for his own salvation. This state can be reached in prayer. When it is truly achieved, sin is impossible.

Temptation may come, and even compel the Quietist to perform actions which would be sinful in others. But because he no longer has a will of his own, the actions are not sin.”

This is blasphemous and pagan to the Christian disciple.

Alright, let me clarify a bit. As an answer to Frank's inquiry; yeah, I'm young, 24. My age is probably reflected in my writing, though I've also stated it a few times. I've got loads to learn, and I'm QUITE teachable, but on this type of stuff I don't tend to give in much without some sound Biblical exposition.

In my previous post if you reread it you will see that I'm not advocating that the absolute only book a person should read is the Bible. There are plenty of good Christian authors out there, both alive now, and passed on. There are also some questionable ones. I claim no infallibility on my part, but I don't need to, some of things she says (which have been pointed out by others on this thread) the Bible will disagree with. And you are correct on that I haven't read her. I only had to read a little bit of her writings before the red flags started popping up. I don't need to subject myself to more of it, what I've browsed so far is enough for me to keep my distance. Like the other user on this thread who was voicing some of my same concerns, I was also involved in the occult before I got proper saved. When you see some of the leanings you had before subtly coated on top of what appears to be sound, you begin to start questioning where such wisdom comes from, as Tom stated. So I just want to reiterate, if just the snippets of what I've seen of her work reflect the whole of it, I would prefer not to waste my time with it, I don't have to comb through it to find gems of truth that are only going to be restatements of what I've found in the Bible.

Now, I was not putting you or anyone else in the boat with Bentley or any of those dudes. But what I was saying, is that people who usually defend the "ministries" of those men will usually defend it based on subjective revelation, and on how it blesses them, and not soundly on the Scriptures. This is not how we divide truth from error. Sure, they got some truth in their teaching, but there's always real cheese in a rat trap. I will also not stand here and say that a person has to have 100% of their ducks lined up for me to give heed to any of their words. No one has this type of infallibility. But when there is stuff that's just bad teaching, it's like Learn said, we don't doubt their salvation, we think they're genuine, but it's probably best to not sit under them.

I'm not trying to say that Madam Guyon was not a Christian, I'm not saying that you can't read her books. I'm just saying that if people on this thread want to defend her writings and her teachings you cannot fall back on "well I've been blessed by her, and so have others". This is not a Scriptural argument.

All this being said, I find this no point of division. Read as you please, but just be careful how and what you defend. -Grant

Seems that her theology was a a mishmash of some truth mixed
with some error.

If she was baking a spiritual cake would it be edible?

Or would it be poisonous enough to harm those who partook.

"Concerning Madam Guyon's conversion she tells about it in chapter 8 in her autobiography published by Moody Press. In chapter 10 she tells of the fruit of her conversion. It was a change of life. She broke with sinful living."....JB1968
............................................................................................................................
What conversion? She was schooled by a wicked cloister of demonic impostors, as it is today.

Jeanne Guyon was not a Christian by faith, nor was she ever born again by the Holy Spirit of God. She was a mystic that believed God was in us all, and that we could and should find Him within.

She believed in sinless perfection attained through her bizarre devotion. If she was a champion of anything, she was a champion of pagan asceticism , in the extreme forms of it.

"At 19 she met a priest who told her: “It is, madame, because you seek without what you have within. Accustom yourself to seek God in your heart, and you will there find Him.”

Guyon wrote of no conversion, only a presupposition that Christ was always in her heart.

Thus she started her incredible lifelong journey within. She responded to the Lord,

“Thou wast in my heart, and demanded only a simple turning of my mind inward, to make me perceive Thy presence. ... The kingdom of God is within you.”...Guyon..
..G. Richard Fisher..
"The mindless mysticism of Madame Guyon."

From Autobiography of Madame Guyon Chapter 12

"During this extraordinary sickness, which continued more than six months, the Lord gradually taught me that there was another manner of conversing among souls wholly His, than by speech. Thou madest me conceive, O divine Word, that as Thou art ever speaking and operating in a soul, though therein thou appearest in profound silence; so there was also a way of communication in thy creatures, in an ineffable silence. I heard then a language which before had been unknown to me. I gradually perceived, when Father La Combe entered, that I could speak no more. There was formed in my soul the same kind of silence toward him, as was formed in it in regard to God. I comprehended that God was willing to show me that men might in this life learn the language of angels. I was gradually reduced to speak to him only in silence. It was then that we understood each other in God, after a manner unutterable and divine. Our hearts spoke to each other, communicating a grace which no words can express. It was like a new country, both for him and for me; but so divine, that I cannot describe it. At first this was done in a manner so perceptible, that is to say, God penetrated us with Himself in a manner so pure and so sweet, that we passed hours in this profound silence, always communicative, without being able to utter one word. It was in this that we learned, by our own experience, the operations of the heavenly Word to reduce souls into unity with itself, and what purity one may arrive at in this life. It was given me to communicate this way to other good souls, but with this difference: I did nothing but communicate to them the grace with which they were filled, while near me, in this sacred silence, which infused into them an extraordinary strength and grace; but I received nothing from them; whereas with Father La Combe there was a flow and return of communication of grace, which he received from me, and I from him, in the greatest purity.
In this long malady the love of God, and of Him alone, made up my whole occupation, I seemed so entirely lost to Him, as to have no sight of myself at all. It seemed as if my heart never came out of that divine ocean, having been drawn into it through deep humiliations. Oh, happy loss, which is the consummation of bliss, though operated through crosses and through deaths!"

I am speachless !

"There is both truth and error in Christian mysticism, and to take an extreme view that it is all false and the work of demons would be to disagree with some of the words of Jesus, the apostle John, and Paul, because there was definetly a mystical element in all of these men. It is equally wrong to believe that everything that came out of Guyon's writings is 100% truth. Those that lack discernment are the ones that take either one of these extreme viewpoints."

"Now, this way of attaining goodness (by rules and precepts), though thus imperfect, is yet absolutely necessary in the nature of the thing, and must first have its time, work, and place in us. Yet it is only for a time, as the law was a schoolmaster to the gospel. All this effort is only to bring a man to such a total despair of all help, from human means, as to make him turn to God from whom alone life can come. Faith becomes the one thing needful. It is a belief that puts the soul into a right state, and that makes room for the operation of God upon it. Oh, blessed simplicity of the Christian life! May we all learn its blessed secret. Let God be all to us. Let Christ be all, as our way to God, as God working and dwelling in us. Let faith be all to us, the simple and unceasing turning of our souls to Christ Jesus."

Great post Mike...........Frank

...AbideinHim: When reading this forward by Murray, I am taken by the intellectualism of it all., the maze of words all attempting to grasp the meaning of the cross, and our transforming by it; IE, growing in Christ.

Yet, the gospel is overshadowed by simplicity; even a gospel that will equally transform the illiterate migrant peasant, as the Prince in silk resting at Oxford, to holy maturity in Christ Jesus.

The answer is simple also. You cannot bear fruit unless you ABIDE IN HIM. Abiding , resting in the holy spirit of Promise, the Spirit of Jesus. God has made a way for even the child. First you must be born again from above.

Secondly, the term Christian Mysticism is somewhat misleading. Mysticism could be divided into several groupings here; Protestant, Catholic, Buddhist, Hindi, Babylonian....and a blend of them all ....and yet be called Christian, with "Christianese" terminology applied to vague applications concerning anything spiritual.

William Law would probably fall into the Protestant sect of Mysticism. His ideas could be compared to a "PILGRIMS PROGRESS" journey into the working of the Spirit of God to conform the soul..[THE WAY OF DIVINE KNOWLEDGE]..William Law..] into "Light".

I believe that William Law was a Christian, yet, paradoxically, was a devotee to the theosophical works of Jacob Boehme, who believed:

.............. "that everything exists and is intelligible only through its opposite. Thus, he believed, evil is a necessary element in goodness, for without evil the will would become inert and progress would be impossible. Evil is a result of the striving of single elements of Deity to become the whole; conflict ensues as man and nature strive to achieve God. "

God himself, according to Boehme, contains conflicting elements and antithetical principles within His nature. (c.f. Sri Aurobindo - the Supermind (Godhead Truth-Consciousness) which contains and reconciles all opposites within Itself).

Law devoted many of his works to Boehme, who fundamentally believed that evil was a necessary part of God, to balance the Universe in all paradigms; physical and spiritual. Sound Biblical to you? Again, in the Andrew Murray article, he said;

"In mysticism, as in everything human, there is an a mixture of good and evil. Mysticism, because it is at root a truth, it's good has, notwithstanding a considerable amount of error, greatly outweighed its evil."...Andrew Murray

So, in Murray's mind, this philosophy has evil in it, but somehow the good , on the scales of virtuous pragmatism, outweighs the evil.

My question to Murray would then be...Tell me Andrew, How do we sort out the bad and evil, when we begin this line of thinking? It's Theosophy, a fundamentally Eastern concept sometimes called Dualism....again championed in the west by BOHME..[ no doubt a genius.. and highly influential across Europe.]]

Where do you find this great and deep wisdom in the Bible? It is not a truth at it's root, but a misguided philosophy that teaches that we can facilitate the abiding work of the Holy Spirit to mature us.

We, being of base flesh and blood, must undertake a method of prayer or meditation to allow us entry into the deeper plateaus of God. This is the Eastern part of mysticism. It is a lie.

So as I see it, there are "mystics" who also happen to be Christian: born again believers. There are many affected by what we loosely term as "THE EMERGENT CHURCH", in the same boat. They believe a gospel that leans toward extreme grace...[ "come as you are, leave as you are, do what you will, God loves you anyway"...]....to all religions lead to the same God. It is a deviation from the simplicity that is in Christ that affected their thinking in the first place.

Then there are those "Christian" mystics who were never born again, but found the Christ that was always there, and believe dwells in every man or woman, and continued to find him in the exact same fashion as there Babylonian counterpart have for millennia....Contemplative, Meditative focus.

It is not Christian at all, and neither or it's fruits, but through language have described it such. It is a counterfeit purely, while the Christian mystics have seemed to only nibbled on the apple.

Guyon believed that Christ always was in her, and through discipleship discovered these Non- biblical methods and the spirits attached to them to attain her elevated states of consciousness.

In mysticism, as in everything human, there is an admixture of good and evil. Mysticism, because it is at root a truth, its good has, notwithstanding a considerable amount of error, greatly outweighed its evil.

Red flags, anyone?

If we were to swap out the word mysticism here and exchange it with;

The Emergent Church
The Modern Charismatic Movement
TBN
Joel Osteen's teachings
The Lakeland revival
The Purpose Driven Life
Etc.

How many would still be on board?

Gal 1

6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;

7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.

8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!

9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

1 Corinthians 15

1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

The truth that is at the centre of mysticism, that of union with Christ has been adopted by many pagans and of course the spirit they unite with is not the Spirit of God but of the enemy of souls. The enemy will only counterfeit the truth. And even pagans when they have seen real Christianity through history have tried to copy the heart of it, when they have not been attracted to the dead dry religion of many church goers. However, they followed the false idea of dying to self which is Eastern and not scriptural. Denying self is scriptural, but that must follow crucifixion of the old nature which is the price that few will pay as it involves giving up the right to ourselves which is not the same thing as being in charge of the death of self.

Mme. Guyon came dangerously close to the errors of Quietism with its passivity for example, she had been staying with a relative with her daughter and on her return home found the household to be stricken with smallpox but nevertheless did not find a place of safety for herself and daughter and her daughter died. This was a matter of taking things too far in submission but it was the only sense in which she lacked discernemnt. Her heart however was totally committed to Christ which enabled her to endure great suffering and she has been the means for many to grow closer to Christ through accepting their circumstances and caused her to risk her life in her defiance of the church authority.

Wesley supported mysticism for a long time and William Law but then decided to reject it but I don`t think he really understood it and he may have been coloured by the French Prophets, a charismatic band who caused him problems in the revivals, his brother Charles complaining about them `gobbling like turkeys`. Wesley never did disagree with the idea that man is to holy in this life which is the heart of mysticism

I consider Guyons works worth reading if one keeps in mind this Quietist influence as along with everyone, no-one has it completely right even the apostle Paul spoke from his own mind where he did not have the authority of God.

Brenda