The subject of this thread is the title to Richard Sipley's message at the Revival Conference Victoria this week. Using Mark 11:22 as his text Sipley says "your Bible probably reads 'Have faith in God'...wrong". He continues by saying this should be translated "Have the faith of God". Mr. Sipley has decided to join all the Word of Faith teachers and pretend to be an expert of the Greek language. When I ask any of them: "Do you know the use of the objective genitive case in the NT?" not a one of them has a clue what I'm speaking of. Yet that is what they profess to be translating here. They suggest they are more knowledgable than the translators of the KJV, NASB, RV, RSV, ASV, NIV, ESV, ISV, Syriac, Moffatt, Phillips, Rotherham, Good News, Amplified, Beck, 20th Century, Wuest, Goodspeed, etc etc in translating this case! Does Sipley realize he has joined the ranks of Kenneth Copeland, Kenneth Hagin, Charles Capps, Joyce Meyers, Jesse Duplesis, Creflo Dollar, and all the other "Have whatever you say" teachers? Listening to him, I think he does but won't admit it. But beside heretical translation, how about questions like: "Who does God have Faith in?" After all, faith must have an object. This becomes a rhetorical question if Name it Claim preachers would use their heads. And what is the context? Is it not prayer? Yes it is a lesson on prayer since Jesus follows "Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them." Again, if this is telling us to have the faith of God, who is God praying to? I tell you, if you take away this heretical translation Hagin used early in his ministry and the influence it had on all the wannabe Haginites, the "have what you say" Faith Word prosperity movement would never have become the dangerous thing that it has. And now we have Revival speakers siding with it. All I can say is, the leaders of the conference need to be careful of what they are associating with.
Have the faith of God???
I had the same question because I was curious as to what translation said Of searched all the translations I own and couldn't find of in any of them. Maybe someone could clear that up for me.
If you read and understood the greek I believe what Sipley shared was the correct translation and idea in the text.
The word of faith movement uses that idea in a very wrong way to say WE ARE GODS. That is wrong obviously and heretical.
I encourage you to read the greek text on www.blueletterbible.com and many good bible commentators agree with sipleys position.
I didn't disagree with this sermon just curious as to which translation said Of rather than In.
Using Mark 11:22 as his text Sipley says "your Bible probably reads 'Have faith in God'...wrong". He continues by saying this should be translated "Have the faith of God"
The margin note in my Oxford KJV for Mark 11:22 reads...
"or, Have the faith of God"
As Greg has pointed out, many others not associated with WOF see this is a valid translation as well.
In Christ,
Ron
hi, i am not so sure about what is worse...being stupid or pointing out the stupidity of others while hiding our own stupidity.i have eaten meals with ken hagin and belonged to the same church with jesse and knew a few others and found them to mostly love God ...especially ken hagen ...the worse thing they say is that Jesus died spiritually...God stopped being God for a period and suffered in hell...total stupidity...but for the grace of God go i...pray for them and love them or it will negatively effect you.jimp
The Koine Recieved Text says 'of'.
In reference to the genetive, this is the reason Brother Sipley emphasized Gal.2:20 and Heb. 12:2 in relation to this passage.
He was hardly saying anything near what W.O.O.F.(tm) teaches:
"Have the God kind of faith."
(They teach that we bring our our own faith to the point of God's quality of faith (apart from God), yet scripture plainly states in several places that there is no such thing as a faithful fallen human.)
to best understand the emphasized meaning of the passage in Mark, according to current post-modern english vernacular, it could be stated as:
'Have the faith of God in/from God'
or
"Have your faith(fulness) in God and the faith(fulness) of God comes from Him to you as you remain (aka:abide) in Him.".
If you do not have understanding of Greek or Hebrew, and the Holy Spirit has not revealed it to you, the Bible is it's own best interpreter. Take every verse in context of the whole book, because it never contradicts itself.
We on the other hand, often tend to be walking contradictions.
CIAO!
g
Acts 20:32
p.s. What's the most accurate copy of the Targum?
Having looked it up, the Greek word for God in this passage is Theou. It's in the genitive case (showing possession) and the word it's modifying is the word for faith. I certainly do not agree with the WOF interpretation that God operated under a law that He had to follow, but "the faith of God" or "God's faith" appears to be a valid translation. I wasn't able, however, to find any exegetical guides that attempt to deal with this particular passage as to this possible translation.
Mark 11:22, Young's Literal Translation put it this way:
"And Jesus answering saith to them, `Have faith of God;...
Having great training and knowledge of the Greek language does not guarantee that one can properly interpret scripture. We must be students of the word and do so with much prayer and reliance on the Holy Spirit to truly understand and rightly divide. Now obviously this does not mean that we make mince meat of the language, but often more can be discerned through allowing the Holy Spirit to lead you in study than can be discerned through diagramming sentence structure.
I guess that is the long drawn out way to say that I have also seen this thought running through several parts of scripture. If we are to have faith that is effective, whose faith do we think it is going to be? Our own? If I had to rely on my own faith, I would be in trouble for sure.
I really must make a comment about what Jimp said. We are so quick sometimes to denounce this man or that, this teaching or that. I know of some very godly and powerful men in the WOF ranks, and I know of some who are way off. Search the history of mightily used men of God from every denomination or movement. Even the most mightily used of God were often way off in left field in some area of their life. Many were used of the Holy Spirit to do great things, but had one or two really flaky doctrines that leave me scratching my head. What makes you or me think we are any better or different? I have learned to be very slow to pass judgment and to do it very sparingly. Yes, there is a time when one must stand and say, "that is wrong.", but we must be very careful. Remember, the measure with which you mete will be the measure with which it is given back to you.
Please do not conceal from us what you have to say about "the use of the objective genitive case in the NT"
Particularly seeing we have two nouns, both of which are anarthrous [word or group of words which appear without the definite article]. "Anarthrous constructions are most often intended to point out the quality of something"[Zodhiates, grammar notes, #5, #51, and #78].
For those of us who once had little use for grammar: Nouns in Greek have cases that indicate their function in a sentence... the genitive case primarily indicates possession, source or separation and often includes the English word "of" in its translation.
As the speaker said, HIS CHOICE would be 'HAVE GOD FAITH". Since prepositions (like the word "in") are available/easy for the writer to have put into the Greek, AND THEY WERE NOT .....
Please do not conceal from us what you have to say about "the use of the objective genitive case in the NT"
I am sure you have noticed there is probably not a single person on this forum drawn to your list of false teachers. And,of course it can always be good to have reminders. It would be most helpful if you would "take aim" at the Word of God.
My goodness! As I prayerfully wrote a response to skopos_theou, MANY responded, and quite well. I was going to ignore the post as it seemed aimed at man, ... until someone else responded.
I found this precious truth near 20 years ago as I came to understand what the Word of God says about testimony, and witnessed the effect of testimony. This gives the greater reason to guard "our" testimony: it is the testimony of our Lord [2 Timothy 1: 6-8]. It is His testimony [2 Timothy 1: 8] entrusted to us [and here the Greek emphasizes ownership/possession]. This is found so many places in His Word.
Perhaps skopos has experience in the damage done by word-of-faith deceivers like others have come out of new-age or psychology.
SKOPOS: I for one would like to hear anything you have to say about "the use of the objective genitive case in the NT?"
Better post this as 20 more posts may have gone up.
Joan, thanks for your question. I don't mean to conceal anything. Usually when one reads the genitive case it is assumed the possessive sense is meant such as "House of God" = "God's house". But in the objective sense, the genitive will be used more like the dative case of direction such as "love of the brethren" meaning not "the brethren's love" (possessive) but "love toward the brethren" (objective).
The Rev. John Owen, who translated and edited Calvin's Commentary on Romans for the Calvin Translation Society in 1849, wrote: "The words 'by or through the faith of Jesus Christ' mean not the faith which is His, but the faith of which He is the object. They ought to be rendered 'through faith in Jesus Christ'. The genitive case often has this meaning: 'Have faith in (of) God', Mk. 11.22; ‘I live by the faith of the Son of God', should be in our language, 'I live by faith in the Son of God'. This genitive case of the object is an Hebraism, and is of frequent occurrence".
Judging from some of the comments, I obviously came off to strong. Unfortunately I had strong ties to the Faith Prosperity movement for many years and I guess if came out of Jehovahs Witnesses I'd feel as strong commenting on John 1:1 "and the word was a god".
You see, the Faith Movement use of the "faith of God" means the creative power God has of "calling things that are not as though they are"(Rom 4.17). Faith is not objective (toward God) but subjective (faith in your own faith or faith in your words). So in this sense, they teach you can have the faith of God - you can create with your words. But reading the Hebrews 11 faith chapter says Without faith it is impossible to please Him for he that cometh to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him". That is my point - Faith is objective "toward" God and hence we must read Mark 11:22 as an objective genitive case. Any other way would mean if God has faith, His is subjective because it could only be toward Himself.
I cannot reconcile how we can listen to "A call to Anquish" one minute and the next justify an interpretation of scripture that is totally antithesis to that and is the basis for what David Wilkerson calls the gospel of the flesh. I hope this helps you understand my concerns better.
Skopos_theou: Thank you so much for responding and keeping to the Greek.
I thank God He has broken your ties to the Faith Prosperity movement. And there sure is need in the body for sensitive watchmen.
I appreciate your quote from Rev. John Owen. I am sorry Calvin is not here to discuss this. I remain with both nouns being anarthrous.
It probably would not make sense to others but I find this topic a bit like discussing how BOTH Christ in me and I in Christ – when you think of the meaning of it.
My brother is searching now for any references to “the objective genitive case” in grammar books and I do understand there may be an alteration of that into “But in the objective sense, the genitive will be used more like the dative case of direction....”. I could not tell if that was you speaking or you, still quoting John Owen. I can read and understand grammar books, though not my favorite thing. Zodhiates' grammar comment makes me laugh: “Recognizing the significance of the presence or absence of the definite article requires the most intimate knowledge of the Greek language.” I wanted to ask Owen/Calvin/Zodhiates/you, “And the reason the definite article of the “subject noun” was ALSO omitted in Mark is … while two articles are present in Galatians [of the Son } ”
I think you will find posters here quite opposite to those in the word-of-faith who would consider “Have the faith of God” to mean what they call faith is theirs to do with as it pleases them/their flesh and greed, as though the old man got himself a jack-pot.
We can probably agree that it was Jesus Christ's faith in evidence in the garden and on the Cross, and much more in evidence there of course, but I mean to point out that faith was HIS ALONE. I am sure you see there are very deep things here. Things touching the trinity (Why have you forsaken me.), touching man's “role” in salvation, oh too many for written discussion here.
Maybe the best way I can put it is that, as the Truth of the death of self saturates me, the less of me. Although the “most intimate knowledge” I seek is of Him, I would still read something from Greek grammar that touches on Him and our relationship. [Philippians 3: 10].
I am glad you have posted here and I very much understand your concern. My old man did not get himself a jack-pot, he got the ax .... laid to the root. :D
It is very late here...
I have heard Mark 11:22 very effectively preached from the angle 'hold the faithfulness of God'. In fact, this helped me enormously to trust (Him) because He is able to do what He's undertaken on our behalf. It is a great way to cancel out unbelief, and, reliance on one's own effort to 'believe'. It puts the focus directly onto what God has said - upon His living word - and His competence to bring it to pass. That competence is 'His faith' that when He speaks, it is, or will be, at the time of His choosing in our experience, being as it is always 'now', in His experience. If I seem to be rambling, please think about it.
John 10:18 is another place where Jesus demonstrates faith, (similar to submitting to baptism, Matt 3:15), this time in an event which has not yet taken place. Heb 12:1, 2.
Joan, I wish it was as simple as "Christ in me" or "I in Christ". But the exact phrase "faith of God" is not found anywhere else in all of scripture except Rom 3:3 that man's unbelief cannot make the "faith of God" of none effect. This actually is a subjective genitive but what all scholars agree on is that "faith" in this passage means the "faithfulness of God". So it is not a matter of case but translation. So fundamentally, anyone who uses Mark 11:22 to mean "have God's kind of faith" is standing on one leg. Not very good hermeneutics now is it.
But take an imperitive that uses an objective genitive that all of us apply everyday if we love the Lord and which we have not one, but dozens of quotes in scripture: "Have the fear of God". If we treated this as a subjective genitive it would mean "have God's kind of fear". I hope we agree that God does not have anyone or anything to fear. So again we are faced with an objective genitive to have fear and trembling directed toward God. And in the same reverence we approach the fear of God, we must approach the term faith of God. Only He is sovereign and only He is to be the object of religious faith. I so appreciate the interest you have to dig into this subject and being one who actually appreciated my post.
Hi Skopas, given what you have written, what do you see as the application then? If one teaches that we are to have the "faith of God,' how then is that applied in our every day lives? The man that came forward in the prayer meeting after this was preached, the man whose family is stuck in Germany, I think, because his house has not sold yet, what then is being said to him given this Scripture? I was a little confused as to what was being said to him.......brother Frank
Is everything that the WoF says bad? Maybe having the God kind of faith is good. I mean, I have no trouble with it since it's God who has given to every man a measure of His faith.
It's His faith that is being doled out, isn't?
Just because the WoF takes it beyond extremes and says stupid things like, "Have faith in your faith", does that make "Have the faith of God" wrong?
Think about it. God dishes out faith to every man, it's His faith. If we say, "Have [the] faith of God", it seems pretty obvious to me.
Sipley probably is very aware that it sounds like WoF, but probably realized, like I have realized that to have faith in God is to have the faith that God gave us.
Faith unto salvation must come from the salvation giver. Lest any man should boast in any of his own doing, be it faith, works or what ever man thinks he can do to please God and procure his own salvation. I cannot die for myself. Only Christ can die for my salvation. It takes His Faith to bring me to His Cross.
Acts 3:16 And his name (Jesus Christ)through faith in his name (Jesus Christ) hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him (Jesus Christ)hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.
Pretty plain.
All the other "faith of Christ", have no in or of. It simply says, "Faith Christ".
Expecially: Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
"the faith" Strong's Greek Dictionary
4102. pistis
Search for G4102 in KJVSL
pistiV pistis pis'-tis
from 3982; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.
Crucified with Him, raised in life by His life and Faith and all that God has made Him for our salvation for those that God has given to Him, that He loose none except the "son of perdition", to fulfill prophesied scripture.
Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith (Son of God) of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Again, "The Faith"; "the faith" Strong's Greek Dictionary
4102. pistis
Search for G4102 in KJVSL
pistiV pistis pis'-tis
from 3982; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.
He is our all and in all, "Christ in you the Hope of Glory", how can this not be that exacting faith that brings salvation and perfect peace, and all that God swore we would enter into His "REST".
1 Corinthians 1:30-31 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
This "faith" is of Him, through Him, in Him, and all else we need for believing that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Strong's Greek Dictionary
1537. ek
Search for G1537 in KJVSL
ek ek ek or ex ex
a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause; literal or figurative; direct or remote):--after, among, X are, at, betwixt(-yond), by (the means of), exceedingly, (+ abundantly above), for(- th), from (among, forth, up), + grudgingly, + heartily, X heavenly, X hereby, + very highly, in, ...ly, (because, by reason) of, off (from), on, out among (from, of), over, since, X thenceforth, through, X unto, X vehemently, with(-out). Often used in composition, with the same general import; often of completion.
That pretty much covers the Faith Son of God, It is of Him and none else.
1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
No one can say this except, by the Holy Spirit that is baptized in us of the Spirit of Christ and God the Father.
God gives us His own witness of His Son, Now this is true faith, which without it is impossible to please God.
1 John 5:9-12 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
In Christ: Phillip
There is two kinds of faith, the faith all men have to believe the sun will rise and the moon will shine, the chair will hold me if I sit on it.
There is only one kind of faith unto salvation; Galatians 2:16-21 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
This faith has no measure. How can you measure Faith Himself, Jesus Christ? He is all faith and all and in all, those the Father has given Him.
In Christ by His faith that is birthed in me. New life, New nature, a son of God.
Praise God by Holy Faith, we are given new birth, born again son's of God by the Incorruptable Seed of the Father, Jesus Christ, who is the One that lives in me for I "no longer live", Christ alive and not dead in vain. Christ alive in the believers. Christ life. Let us live it by the prompting of the Holy Spirit who is now our life also forever in us. The Power of the Christ Seed, The Power of the blessed teacher the Holy Spirit, and even The Power of the Father who with Christ make His abode with us.
Is Christ alive in flesh. Yes alive in our flesh which is the spiritual container of an Holy Temple to the Lord.
1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2Jo 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
Is He Come? Not has He come which we all know, but "IS", Which is now.
In Christ: Phillip
There is only one kind of faith: to believe the sun will rise, the chair will hold me if I sit on it AND believing God (which made deemed Abraham as rightous) unto salvation.
Thinking that it must say, "Have the faith of God" or "have the faith which God has" is to assume that God has faith. The question you must answer is, "what does God believe in to 'have faith'"?
Does God have faith in Himself? That is rediculous.
There are two kinds of faith:
1) faith in physical facts, Rom. 4:14
and
2)faith above the law, Rom. 3:3, 4
One is based on observation, and the other is based on what you cannot yet see, respectively.
Granted, Logic, one cannot be without the other, yet usually it is the first and not the second that is adhered to considering it reality.
Faith # 1) is not the faith that pleases God. Jn. 2:23, 24.
Faith #2) satisfies God:
Heb. 11:6
Col. 3:1-2
2 Cor. 4:18, 5:7
This kind of faith is bound within honoring God in FAITHfulness to relationship with(in) Him.
This is the faith of God referred to. See Jn. 3:31.
Rom. 4:16, 17
There is faith that deals with what exists already. Then there is the faith of God, that creates something where it did not previously exist.
Agapeo,
g
Acts 20:32
p.s. God does not have faith. He is faith(ful) and the true (witness).
The greek word Pistis meaning faith also at the same time has in it the meaning faithful. Both english words are interchangable in the meaning of this word in every instance. (Without faithfulness, there is no faith; and vice versa.)
Here is a list of places in the NT where the word faith is associated with a noun in the genitive case.
Mark 11:22; Rom 3:22, 26; 4:16; Gal 2:16; 3:22; Phil 3:9; 2 Th 2:13; Heb 11:7; Rev 14:12
If we are going to make Mark 11:22 to mean only 'God's faith' we would need to use the same 'only' interpretation for the rest of the NT uses. However
"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all," Rom 4:16
KJV has the same basic construction and plainly this cannot mean 'faith IN Abraham'; it can 'only' mean Abraham's (kind of) faith.
2 Th 2:13 could only mean 'faith in the truth' and not 'truth's faith'
Heb 11:7 is exactly the same construction as Mark 11:22 but is usually translated something like By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. Heb 11:7 NKJV
So we can't categorically say that 'faith' plus a genitive noun always means eg 'God's faith' but neither can we say it can never mean 'God's or Abraham's faith'. This is one of those instances where we must use the context to make an accurate translation and not just individual words.
There is only one KIND of faith (belief), but the thing which matters is what/Who one must put their faith in/on.
God is love & love "believes all things" (1 Corinthians 13:7), so one could say that God has faith, but it is nothing diferent than what all mankind has, it is the same KIND of faith as all mankind has...belief. So, to say that we must have the same KIND of faith as God (the faith OF Jesus) makes no ssense, but to have it the correct way as God does is sensible, for He is our standard; we shouls also "believe all things".
Logic,
Why do you insist that there is only one kind of faith. If this were the case, then everybody -(having faith that is of the very same nature)- would believe God.
Let's reiterate this another way:
1) there is a measure of faith (given to every man)
and there is
2) the Faith of God, or also known as the Faith of Abraham.
faith of the first type believes what it can see already, and bases everything on the governance and operation of this world. This is human faith(fulness), and is not reliable.
Faith of the second type believes outside the box, with God as the one outsourcing this. This relies on what God says is the ultimate reality, which is usually not physically manifested at the time of believing.
Faith is not just thinking something is a certain way in your head. In fidelity with these thoughts, you will act as though it is so.
# 1) Believes there is a chair that can be sat on, and then goes and sits on it. It is only relative to what is recognized through the senses.
# 2) believes God when he says your name is no longer Abram, but Abraham. Then without a son through His marriage, starts telling everybody God said i am not Abram anymore, but God said i am a father of many nations, so my name is Abraham. This kind of faith believes that everything is spiritual. Because all that exists was created by Gods's Word, everything you do matters.
Should you still insist, more examples can easily follow.
The God kind of faith is not our own type of faith at all. It is recieved through being completely reliant on God, through Jesus Christ.
Whose faith does it speak of in Gal. 2:20 ?
Consider Rom. 1:17 in relation to this.
God Bless,
gregg
Acts 20:32
If believing is faith, then there are two kinds, both authored by God. Belief unto a reprobate mind and to destruction and one to life in Christ Jesus the Author and
Perfector of our faith.
ONE;
2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Unto destruction.
2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Unto salvation and eternal life.
True, faith is faith, but it depends on the author of the faith as to what the outcome will be.
Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Victory faith; 1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
In Christ, by His Faith: Phillip
Phanetheus asked, "Why do you insist that there is only one kind of faith. "
* because there is only one kind of belief which is what faith means:
Confidence in the truth or existence of something which is not from empirical knowledge (knowledge which is derived from or guided by direct experience or observation)
Rom 8:24 For what a man sees, why does he yet hope (believe/faith) for?
Phanetheus said, "1) there is a measure of faith (given to every man)"
*This "measure of faith" is not about salvific faith or
belief in Christ, but concerning the Christian service as what the context proves.
The "measure of faith" is being differing members in one body (v.4), having different offices (v.4), & differing gifts (.5); that if one person has a certain gift/office &/or being a certain part of the body, he must not think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly (v.3).
Phanetheus said, "2) the Faith of God, or also known as the Faith of Abraham."
* the Faith of Abraham." is not a "kind" of faith, but an example of faith (Heb 11:8 & 17, James 2:21-23).
If you want to call it a "kind of faith" it will be dead "kind" of faith compared to the "living "kind of faith" as with works.
For the rest of what you said, your just making the difference of Who/what the faith is on, not a "kind of faith".
Rom. 1:17 "The righteousness is revealed through means of faithfulness (obedient loyalty), in order to produce faith (belief in Christ) in others."
as it is written, The just shall live by faith (The justified shall live faithfully
or
The faithful will live justly)
Logic,
Ok, have it your way, dead faith and living faith.
There we have the two different types, if that is your preference for definition.
No debate about the "measure of faith," though it seems you limit what God will do on your behalf simply because you seem to have trouble reaching beyond the letter.
...and it's not this distinction of who or what the faith is on, but rather Whose faith it is.
Man's faith alone is finite and ultimately dead, confined to what is sensed. It can only make something out of something.
God's faith is infinite, living, and cannot be contained. The faith of God makes anything He choses ex nihilo, merely by speaking it.
God's grace empowers you
To the truth he has called you to;
Therefore, stand in it, go and do!
Agapeo,
g
Acts 20:32
Great thread, As I understand faith, let me put it this way.
the jewish understanding of faith meant faithfullness.
So God was faithful, and he expects us to be faithful.
To have faith in God to them means understand His faithfullness to us through His promises.
But the flip side to this faithfullness was He expected us to be faithful to Him as well.
So when we are told to have the faith of God. We are expected to have the same kind of faithfullness as He has toward us.
This kind of faith is not a kind of believe or mental ascent.
But a kind of trusting in what He says he is going to do and remain faithfull to Him while waiting for His promises to come to pass.
I hope this helps.
Many Bible words have a narrower and a wider meaning. It may seem tidy to say there is only one kind of faith but what would we make of...
Now when He was in Jerusalem at the Passover, during the feast, many believed in His name when they saw the signs which He did. John 2:24 But Jesus did not commit Himself to them, because He knew all men, John 2:25 and had no need that anyone should testify of man, for He knew what was in man. John 2:23–25 NKJV
What is interesting here is that the word translated 'believed' in v23 is the same word that is translated 'commit' in v24.
Phanetheus:
You said, "God's faith is infinite"
* what does God have faith in that it is infinite?
What is that faith in which God has that we must have since "faith alone is finite and ultimately dead, confined to what is sensed"?
Do we need infinite faith to "believe God" so that we are accounted as righteous like Abraham (Rom 4:3)?
Can you prove that Man's faith alone is finite and ultimately dead?
You also siad, "The faith of God makes anything He choses ex nihilo, merely by speaking it."
* That is not "God's faith", but His omniptoence.
You also siad, "God's grace empowers you"
* God's grace doesn't "empower" but His Spirit does.
by Logic on 2010/6/28 13:55:42
Phanetheus:
You said, "God's faith is infinite"
* what does God have faith in that it is infinite?
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Himself alone: Heb. 6:17, 18; Is. 14:24, 27
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Logic:
What is that faith in which God has that we must have since "faith alone is finite and ultimately dead, confined to what is sensed"?
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g:
Can we call things that be not as though they were (already)? Can we declare something that is totally none existent, and make it physically appear? Can we see to it that everything we declare comes to pass?
Faith alone, for man, is ultimately dead: yes.
Faith in God alone is forever alive. HE never lies and whatever He says happens by His own doing for His own purpose. It is arbitrary to think that we can come up with reasons why things happen, because there is a reason for everything. The ultimate reason behind everything is God's faithfulness, no matter what he chooses to use as His tools to accomplish this.
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Logic:
Do we need infinite faith to "believe God" so that we are accounted as righteous like Abraham (Rom 4:3)?
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We need God's kind of faith, yet in and of ourselves, this is impossible. It only becomes possible through faith towards God.
Here is what poet previously said and it seems most applicable right here:
"...God was faithful, and he expects us to be faithful.
To have faith in God to them means understand His faithfullness to us through His promises.
But the flip side to this faithfullness was He expected us to be faithful to Him as well.
So when we are told to have the faith of God. We are expected to have the same kind of faithfullness as He has toward us.
This kind of faith is not a kind of believe or mental ascent.
But a kind of trusting in what He says he is going to do and remain faithfull to Him while waiting for His promises to come..."
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Logic:
Can you prove that Man's faith alone is finite and ultimately dead?
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Examples in this thread have already been given in the first response, in the form of questions. Heb. 9:27
Last checked there is 100% chance every man will die. If man's faith were living, he would not cease from physical existence.
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Logic:
You also said, "The faith of God makes anything He choses ex nihilo, merely by speaking it."
* That is not "God's faith", but His omniptoence.
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It is God's faith because He is faithful to do whatever He says. God, unlike man, is not a liar.
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Logic:
You also siad, "God's grace empowers you"
* God's grace doesn't "empower" but His Spirit does.
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Eph. 2:7, 8-9
grace=charis (love gifts) divine influence, favor(s), benefit(s), etc...
The Holy Spirit is primary of His gifts of grace, without which further grace would not be. The two are inseperable as there is not one without the other.
It is by the finished work of Jesus Christ that we are able to have the faith of God. This is not in or of ourselves. It is God's gift (aka: grace) though the faithfulness of Jesus Christ. Our job is to accept, recieve what He gives, and walk in this. In doing this we experience God's kind of faith.
Agape,
gregg
Acts 20:32
"The kingdom then is not for weaklings, waverers, and compromisers... It is not for Balaam, the rich young ruler, Pilate, and Demas... It is not won by means of deferred prayers, unfulfilled promises, broken resolutions and hesitant testimonies. It is for strong and sturdy men like Joseph, Nathan, Elijah, Daniel, Mordecai, and Peter... Stephen... and Paul. And let us not forget such valiant women as Ruth, Deborah, Esther, and Lydia"
~William Hendrickson~
1 Corinthians 2:4-16 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
Before these words of scripture were uttered by Paul, he said, "1 Corinthians 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified."
This can only be discerned by the power of Holy Ghost teaching, "Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth;" This is also our faith, "but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God."
This kind of faith is by the power of God, not by mans or the worlds wisdom. It is foolishness to man that it is not his faith that stands to make him pleasing to God. When it is the power of God and the Holy Spirit by the Faith of Jesus Christ that we stand as son's of God.
That is why man always seeks to prove that in his own power he can live a sinless life and the reason he can't is because he does not want to. The truth is he will never want to and cannot in his own power make himself sinless. Only in Christ by the Seed of the Father and the Seal of the Holy Spirit am I pleasing before the Father. This is my faith which has been given me by demonstration and power.
In Christ: Phillip