Mysticism: A. W. Tozer reconsidered

Brothertom,

I think we need to be very careful here because we all know in part and we are none infallible.

Knowledge has increased and there are things being revealed all the time and people can only know what they have been enlightened about.

Tozer was not perfect and neither is anyone else other than the Lord Jesus Christ. There were many in the Catholic church that found the truth and many came out including Luther who didn’t have it all correct either but He understood salvation through faith.

Tozer wrote more than most and he used many sources. We need to put ourselves in other people’s shoes for a moment. What if we had been back in those dark ages when the Roman Catholic church was in control but we also had a desire to truly know God how would we be perceived today by Christians centuries later.

I just recently heard of a muslim woman who was praying with all her heart telling God that she really wanted to know Him personally and during that pray she had a vision of Jesus and was converted and became an outcast to her family. But she knows God now.

Let’s be careful brother that all I’m saying. I myself am not really interested in where people came from but I am truly interested in where they are going in what they believe now.

Blessings to you!

Tozer has challenged my finite and limited
conception of GOD on so many levels. GOD
is so far beyond our understanding; that
without the help of revelation(from the
Spirit) we cannot begin to imagine His
awe-ful majesty, His wonder!!

Appolus wrote " John 5:39-40 ..You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life, and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life."

What Jesus is saying hear is that you read the scripture thinking this will give you eternal life but the scripture testifies of Christ and it is him that we must come to to have eternal life.

Appolus wrote "So what about it Brothertom, can you share some of your own supernatural encounters?"

About a 1-1/2 years ago a man came to Scotland from Fresh Fire ministries saying that he had a vision of revival in Scotland, I went along to hear what the man has got to say.

At the start of the meeting they had a time for testimony, I was taken a back how the people of the church sharing how they were seeing angles, I mean every single person that shared testified of seeing angelic visions no one word of Jesus.

So the man get ups and starts to preach in a nut shell his message was to encourage people to seek out the "supernatural" and to start asking to see it and sharing about his "Supernatural Experiences" yes his experiences were all about angelic vistations and how they started.........

About half way through the preaching I became aware of something, with this I started to pray in the spirit under my breath so no one could hear. A few moments later the preacher becomes dumb-founded he is trying to speak but he can't, I can see him trying to speak but he can't, with this the people in the "church" building start laughing at the sight.......

Then all of a sudeen he is free to talk, "my Angel is standing at the back of the room" he says, he wants me to you tell you "that you must must seeking after angels"

Can you imagine!!!!!!!

End of the meeting for me..........

One of the words he used while preaching was what he called "centering prayer" this words stuck in my head so I had to go and research what it was....

Basically this type of prayer(mantra) is what the mystics use to find the God that they say is within us all.

People there is a Tsunami of Mysticism sweeping the church, many people are departing the faith and giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils but we have been warned in scripture that there must be a great falling away and the Anti Christ revealed before Jesus can return............

The mysticism that's being promoted today in church starts with a mist and ends in Schism....

Dear Brother Tom,
I think we need to be careful to not condemn others because we do not agree totally with them theologically. In another thread this same thing happened.
Also it seems that you are twisting Tozer's words to mean what you say they mean just because you do not agree with them. Tozer upheld the authority of the Bible, but also believed that you can't tell God what to do. Heb. 4:12-13 says that we stand before God as naked. We cannot hide any thing from Him, even our idea of what we think the Bible teaches.
God's Word is the final authority regardless of anything else. It is infallible, inerrant and wholly inspired of God, but we must also beware of bibliolatry-worship of the Bible.
Also, there is a mystical (if I may say that word) aspect to salvation and the Christian life. Being born again,etc., is more than a change of record in heaven. It is also a change of heart and nature. It is a relationship with God. "Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." II Peter 1:4.
If we stick with the Word of God we can't go wrong.

JLB1968 and Appolus,

I think BrotherTom started this thread because of the earlier thread where some of us started quoting Wesley etc to support our views that Mdm Guyon is a real Christian and that most of her teachings are ok. It is not because he is finding another person to condemn. He is trying to let us know that though true heavyweight Christians such as Wesley, Tozer (that we including himself like and respect) may support them, it doesn't mean that they are correct in this area or other area. That we should test everything and be willing enough to say that yes Tozer, Wesley etc may be wrong in supporting this area/person. That we do not 'follow/trust blindly just because a true Christian has this opinion' (and more importantly this relates to anything, not just M. Guyon.). He's not trying to condemn Tozer, Wesley etc. Its no fun doing this type of thing because they are highly esteemed here and will meet heavy opposition. The heaviest opposition will usually be what some others have stated here and I myself have used elsewhere before ie : be careful not to condemn just because we don't agree 100% with their views and its unlikely that these saints or any real Christians will be right all the time.

At least this is how I see it from his first post in this thread. Just thought I clarify.

Noting that Paul (and Peter, don't forget) quoted from non-Christian authors to establish a spiritual point was a good place to start. Tozer has fueled the fire, refined the faith, deepened the devotion, inspired the holiness, and stretched the soul of countless believers across the world in our generation and his. I do not idolize or hold the man in improper esteem, but we must acknowledge the Lord has esteemed to use him. Why? Because of the general testimony and fruit of his life and ministry, which is Christ. That is enough for me. It is not side issues--all points to God and his Word. Tozer is not producing cults or lukewarm Christians, he is drawing people to the Father, the Son, and the Spirit.

Doctrinal doctors can spin about the points of those he rubs shoulders with. But what is their devotional life and holiness? After all, if they want to take Tozer down, give me something better in his place that points me to Christ more.

I suspect the intent of the article was good, but in this land of overzealous scrutinization, I don't believe it will really do good for anyone. So we find out something never mentioned in the Scriptures, that Paul quoted a Greek philosopher. So we find out that Tozer quoted from the Cloud of Unknowing. And for what purpose did they each quote? It is the same, to point us to and leave us with Christ.

I have heard good messages developed from the words of unbelievers, and Satan quotes the Scriptures to his own purposes, so these types of analyses are doomed to prove nothing.

Quotes from rbanks.

We need to put ourselves in other people’s shoes for a moment. What if we had been back in those dark ages when the Roman Catholic church was in control but we also had a desire to truly know God how would we be perceived today by Christians centuries later.

Would God condemn us if the Roman Catholic church were all we knew and were seeking Him? Don't think that growing in the knowledge of God would necessarily lead you out, just because it would today! The possibilities were different. Although we can have every man for himself today, that does not mean it was so easy or apparent then. Many people sought God in the context they could--and God received them!

I myself am not really interested in where people came from but I am truly interested in where they are going in what they believe now.

Great thoughts on the topic, Robert. Thanks for sharing.

Brothertom

I almost always agree with you, but I don't think much of this article. It displays the sort of intellectual laziness that is characteristic of professional heresy-hunters. The author impugns Dr. Tozer on account of his affinity for medieval mystics, but he doesn't explain what exactly is wrong with medieval mysticism. He just throws the word "Catholic" around like an expletive.

I dont think any of us are in a position to talk or say such things about brother Tozer, just read his writings, listen to his heart, it was madly in love with the Trinity, Heloved the Lord Jesus

Respect should be given to people like Tozer, but it doesn't mean that we are refrained from disagreeing with his views. For me, if it was a message board discussing Tozer, I would be more disinclined to participate against Tozer's views, but if I were guiding/talking to another young/less discerning Christian who is infatuated with him, while I have no problems with him reading Tozer's works etc, I would certainly caution that person, that Tozer may not have it 100% right and certain people that he supported should best be avoided as it may lead us astray. Not doing so when I believe that his support of certain people may not be right, I would have sin.

If I took a quote from George Bush to illustrate a point, would it mean that I agreed with all of his policies? Definitely not.
Tozer was dead right in alot of his conclusions and many people do not like him because of it. If more people would listen to what he said, the church would not be as dead and worldly as she is.
If someone from a different denomination speaks the Truth does that mean they are wrong?
I don't know of too many who have every jot and title correct. I probably even have some faulty views, but I am open to light from God because I want to "walk in the light". I John 1:7 and Phil. 4:8

Tozer--Openly admits coming by th the way of the mystics.

Martyn Lloyd-Jones recalled, 'Dr. Tozer and I shared a conference years ago, and I appreciated his ministry and his fellowship very much. One day he said to me: 'Lloyd-Jones, you and I hold just about the same position on spiritual matters, but we have come to this position by different routes.' 'How do you mean?' I asked. 'Well,' Tozer replied, 'you came by way of the Puritans and I came by way of the mystics.'

But then Tozer goes onto to say...

"Some of my friends good-humoredly – and some a little bit severely – have called me a 'mystic.' Well I'd like to say this about any mysticism I may suppose to have. If an arch-angel from heaven were to come, and were to start giving me, telling me, teaching me, and giving me instruction, I'd ask him for the text. I'd say, 'Where's it say that in the Bible? I want to know.' And I would insist that it was according to the scriptures, because I do not believe in any extra-scriptural teachings, nor any anti-scriptural teachings, or any sub-scriptural teachings. I think we ought to put the emphasis where God puts it, and continue to put it there, and to expound the scriptures, and stay by the scriptures. I wouldn't – no matter if I saw a light above the light of the sun, I'd keep my mouth shut about it 'til I'd checked with Daniel and Revelation and the rest of the scriptures to see if it had any basis in truth. And if it didn't, I'd think I'd just eaten something I shouldn't, and I wouldn't say anything about it. Because I don't believe in anything that is unscriptural or that is anti-scripture."

What Difference Does the Holy Spirit Make? by A. W. Tozer

He recommends that in prayer we practice a further stripping down of everything, even of our theology.

"For it sufficeth enough, a naked intent direct unto God without any other cause than Himself....lapped and folden in one word, for that thou shouldest have better hold thereupon, take thee but a little word of one syllable: for so it is better than of two, for even the shorter it is the better it accordeth with the work of the Spirit. And such a word is this word GOD or this word LOVE"

"The Cloud of Unknowing" A W Towzer

Of course, the Contemplative Prayer movement takes it lead from just this very practice repeating a word such as "love" or "Jesus" over and over until one enters into "the Presence". Even the title of the work "The Cloud of Unknowing" betrays the mystical intent of the writer.

The gist is that we must enter the presence by UN-knowing, as opposed to meditating on an objective reality, i.e., the Scriptures.

I don't believe Tozer practiced this, in fact, on pg. 76 he writes:

"It is important that we get still to wait on God. And it is best that we get alone, preferable with our Bible outspread before us. Then the happy moment when the Spirit begins to illuminate the Scriptures, and that which had been only a sound, or at best a voice, now becomes an intelligible word, warm and intimate and clear as the word of a dear friend".

I can only assume that Tozer had an appreciation for the mystics, for their devotion, but that this appreciation didn't translate into his following their practices.

While Tozer quotes from the 'Cloud of Unknowing', all he is doing is using the quotation as a way of summarising his own understanding, not to denigrate the bible, but to provide a clearer explanation than he thinks he could in his own words.

Jesus is quoted as saying, "I am the way, the truth, and the life", but, like so often, the full statement is not included, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: NO MAN COMES TO THE FATHER BUT BY ME." He is the way, where, to the Father. Where do you want to get to, close to a book, even the most wonderful book in the world, or close to God? As the old hymn says,

"My goal is God Himself, not joy, nor peace,
Nor even blessing, but Himself, my God."
( https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=21742&forum=34&2 )

All Tozer is saying, which any good bible teacher should be saying, is our goal is God, not a book.

Personally, I'm not even sure the book will be there in eternity, though it might be. But I am sure that God will be there: "Rev 22:3-4 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: 4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads."

Kind regards

Mike

PS Please excuse capitals, I am not shouting, but can't find any other function that allows emphasis such as bold, underline etc, except caps.

Which is higher and has more authority: the Bible or the God of the Bible? Is it Him that we are seeking? or just learning the text book to where we become a dead Pharisee?
Can we really experience and know God? or just know His Book? Salvation in more that a change of status. It is knowing God Himself. That is the "mystical" aspect of salvation. A real, personal knowledge of God. Does that negate the Bible, or hold more authority than His Word? Does it contradict His Word? Of course not!
I understand those who always have an "experience" and are looking for angels or dew on the grass are wrong when they put this on the same level as the Bible. Satan desires to ensare people to some emotional experience by placing it higher and of more authority than the Word. Just because there are some "crackpots" (excuse the phraseology)who take it to the nth degree, that does not mean we do not pray intensely and study the Word of God with all of our heart. Tozer is far from these modern "Christian yoga worshippers" or whatever the new name is for them.
Another difference between Tozer and some of the modern church is that he believed that a Christian is to live godly, holy, pure lives. So many in todays church don't practice holiness of life and separation from sinful living. So many things of sin that those men and women of God of the past warned against are practised in modern Christianity.

Brothers and Sisters,

Judge the tree by its fruit. IT seems that it is easy for synical people to focus upon spinters in the eyes of others, while ignoring the beams in their own eyes. Dr. Tozer has been dead for several decades now, and his ministry is yet producing fruit; can you make this claim for your own life? This straining out of gnats is ridiculous, peevish, and wholly unbecoming of a child of God. This precious brother, Dr. Tozer, has helped, and is helping in this hour, myriads of believers with his preaching and writing. This post is wholly bothersome to me, and the critical, and unmerited tense in which is it written.

Amen, I think its time to draw it to a close.

I realize this is my opinion, but I will offer it anyway. It seems to me if Tozer failed in any matter worth noting, it is not in what he wrote or whom he quoted, but in being a husband and father. It is easy to notice that Tozer did not speak much about the Christian family. He was a most inspiring teacher of private devotion and personal communion with a holy and transcendent God, but appears to have failed in close relationships. Since I do not know the finer details of it all, I still cannot judge him, just make observations.

Luk 17:20 ¶ And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Jhn 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I [am] in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

Jhn 14:17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

2Cr 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.

1Cr 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Jhn 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare [it]: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Jhn 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

Act 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

Act 10:9 ¶ On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour:
10 And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,
11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
19 While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee.

Act 10:30 And Cornelius said, Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and, behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing,
31 And said, Cornelius, thy prayer is heard, and thine alms are had in remembrance in the sight of God.
32 Send therefore to Joppa, and call hither Simon, whose surname is Peter; he is lodged in the house of [one] Simon a tanner by the sea side: who, when he cometh, shall speak unto thee.

Act 9:10 ¶ And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I [am here], Lord.
11 And the Lord [said] unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for [one] called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
12 And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting [his] hand on him, that he might receive his sight.

Act 16:9 And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us.

Act 18:9 Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace:

Gen 24:63 And Isaac went out to meditate in the field at the eventide: and he lifted up his eyes, and saw, and, behold, the camels [were] coming.

Jos 1:8 This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success.

Psa 1:2 But his delight [is] in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.

Psa 63:6 When I remember thee upon my bed, [and] meditate on thee in the [night] watches.

Psa 77:12 I will meditate also of all thy work, and talk of thy doings.

2Ch 16:9 For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to shew himself strong in the behalf of [them] whose heart [is] perfect toward him. Herein thou hast done foolishly: therefore from henceforth thou shalt have wars.

Psa 101:6 Mine eyes [shall be] upon the faithful of the land, that they may dwell with me: he that walketh in a perfect way, he shall serve me.

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go [and] sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come [and] follow me.

Luk 6:40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.

Jhn 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

2Cr 13:11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Col 4:12 Epaphras, who is [one] of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.

Jhn 3:30 He must increase, but I [must] decrease.

1Cr 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

2Cr 2:14 Now thanks [be] unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.

2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

2Cr 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Phm 1:6 That the communication of thy faith may become effectual by the acknowledging of every good thing which is in you in Christ Jesus.

Jhn 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

Jhn 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

Mat 5:14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

1Jo 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members [as] instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members [as] instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

1Jo 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

2Cr 10:12 ¶ For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.

Each of us has our own individual walk with the Lord. Our understanding is influenced many times by our history and pain, or lack there of. We are called to follow hard after God, that is the goal. How that looks individual to individual is different. We are not all Praying Hyde, John Wesley, Madam Guyon, Franis Chan, David Wilkerson, Art Katz or any other, and we are not to copy any, accept to follow them as they followed Christ, even as Paul said.

We need to not base our understanding on what others did but on what the word says, however, we need to not discount the experiences of others based on our own experience, because as the scriptures show many had visions, trances and experiences from Genesis to Revelation. We are told to share our testimonies, because they encourage others to press in to all God has for them, and numbers have been won to the kingdom through them.

The kingdom of God is within us and comes without observation. When the Lord chose to reveal Himself in me, that light revealed my darkness, I was the first one to know about it. Hallelujah. Then He powerfully filled me with the Holy Spirit, and I was water baptized, coming up to walk in newness of life. I went from being a lousy wife and mother to a devoted one, from sitting on a bar stool, to worshipping the Lord. I have never been the same and the only reason for that is because I have this treasure in my earthen vessel that the glory might go to Him. Praise the Lord.

We would not be told to walk sinless lives if He hadn't given us the grace to do so. Just because we live below that does not make the provision any less available. My pastor once said " we are free not to sin now". We choose to walk in sin, but we can also choose not to. And if we do sin we have loving provision for that as well. It would be well for us to all read 1st, 2nd and 3rd John and see if it is wrong for someone to believe we can't walk in what it says.

I leave you with this to think about:

Hbr 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered

Excerpt from "A Heart to Worship" by James L. Snyder

"The legacy of Tozer is in the majesty of God. Whatever else Tozer did his supreme desire was to exalt the Lord Jesus Christ as simply as possible. He tried to set before his generation the importance of certain virtues such as simplicity and solitude. He had a great influence among the young preachers, and endeavored to turn them away from sham and pretense and all kinds of flesh that would creep into church politics. Tozer highly recommended getting alone with your Bible and a hymnal. It was this intimacy with God that made his ministry what it became and is remembered now.
Also, a significant aspect of this legacy is spiritual insight. Tozer saw into the nature of things so deeply it burdened him. He once remarked that if you want to be happy do not pray for discernment. Tozer had the gift of spiritual discernment. He could see through to the very nature of things and see beyond the present action to the impending result in the years to come. He could see that the way the evangelical church of his day was going they soon would be in serious spiritual trouble. His message is always to turn back to God despite the inconvenience or cost. He urged churches to forget the Madison Ave. techniques, the strategies of the world and their programs and priorities. He advocated a life of sacrifice, self?denial and service for Christ.
During his lifetime they widely recognized Tozer as a spokesman for God. His insight into spiritual matters was penetratingly accurate. He was widely read, rarely followed. Those who did have the courage to follow discovered to their delight, spiritual realities surpassing anything this world has to offer. Once seen it is difficult to go back to the religious boredom of the average Christian.
Through his ministry Tozer issued a clarion call for evangelicals to return to those authentic, personal and inward positions that characterized the Christian Church when she was most faithful to Christ and His Word.
Tozer's ministry was directed toward the common Christian, not the average. The common person in the pew could understand his message but the average Christian, delighting in mediocrity took no delight in his pronouncements and spiritual ardor. They once said of St. Augustine, Bishop of Hippo, that he was a radical Christian. Such could be said of A. W. Tozer.
In his prayers Tozer never feigned a sanctimonious posture but maintained a continuous sense of God that enveloped him in reverence and adoration. His one daily exercise was the practice of the presence of God, pursuing Him with all his time and energy. To him, Jesus Christ was a daily wonder, a recurring astonishment, a continual amazement of love and grace.
"If you major on knowing God," Tozer once wrote, "and cultivate a sense of His presence in your daily life, and do what Brother Lawrence advises, 'Practice the presence of God' daily and seek to know the Holy Spirit in the Scriptures you will go a long way in serving your generation for God. No man has any right to die until he has served his generation."
This was the habit of Tozer. In the early days at Chicago he would often take a bus and go out to the lake early in the morning with only his Bible and spend many hours alone with God.
An ardent lover of hymns, Tozer had in his library a collection of old hymnals. Often, on the way to an appointment he would grab one of these hymnals to read and meditate. "After the Bible," he often advised, "the next most valuable book is a hymnal. Let any new Christian spend
a year prayerfully meditating on the hymns of Watts and Wesley alone, and he will become a fine theologian." Then he added, "Afterward, let that person read a balanced diet of the Puritans and the Christian mystics. The results will be more wonderful than he could have dreamed."
Tozer's search for God naturally led him to the Christian mystics. He discovered these great saints were uncontrollably in love with God. His great love and appreciation for these writers sprang out of his own heart's deep longing after and thirsting for God. "These people," Tozer would say, "know God, and I want to know what they know about God and how they came to know it." He so identified with the struggles and triumphs of certain devotional writers that many people called him a mystic, a designation to which he never objected.
Tozer's admiration for these writers did not mean he endorsed everything they did or taught. It was their utter devotion of God along with the ability to share their spiritual insights and observations that he valued. They helped him in his walk with God and that was all that really mattered. He placed great emphasis on the contemplation of divine things resulting in the God?conscious life.
Correct doctrine was not enough for Tozer. "You can be," Tozer delighted in saying, "straight as a gun barrel theologically and as empty as one spiritually." Consequently, Tozer did not major in systematic theology. His emphasis was always on a personal relationship with God; a relationship so real, so personal and so overpowering as to utterly captivate a person's full attention. He longed for what he termed, a God?conscious soul, a heart aflame for God."

After having read the thread through I believe when Bob Hartman put pen to paper a few years ago he produced the absolute perfect set of lyrics for this and many similar threads I have read.

WITCH HUNT
Based on 1 Timothy 4:7, Titus 3:9

Everybody look, there's a new bandwagon in town
Hop on board and let the wind carry you around
Seems like there's not enough to keep us busy 'til the Lord comes back
Don Quixote's gotta have another windmill to attack

Another witch hunt, looking for evil wherever we can find it
Off on a tangent, hope the Lord won't mind it
Another witch hunt, takin' a break from all our gospel labor
On a crusade, but we forgot our Saviour
Were on another witch hunt

There's a new way to spend all our energies
We're up in arms instead of down on our knees
Walkin' over dollars, trying to find another dime
Never mind the souls, 'cause we really haven't got the time
We're on another witch hunt

So send out the dogs and tally ho
Before we sleep tonight we've got miles to go
No one is safe, no stone's left unturned
And we won't stop until somebody gets burned
Bro Bro Bro Bro Bro Bro Brothers

Another witch hunt,looking for evil wherever we can find it
Off on a tangent, hope the Lord won't mind it
Another witch hunt, takin' a break from all our gospel labor
On a crusade, but we forgot our Saviour
Were on another witch hunt

..................................................

I rarely get stirred enough to post a response. However it seems that every time I do it is to defend a brother or sister from being slandered by someone else who claims to be a follower Christ.

Perhaps it just the way the posts come across to me... but why is it that SO MANY of certain members posts are merely slander of those who are part of Christ's bride... ones you simply don't agree with on some theological point. If you are posting negatively about someone or ministry have you ever considered that you might be wrong on some issues???

You are certainly free in much of the world to have and express an opinion. I just pray that you do not have to find out one day that you have played the part of the spiritual Don Quixote. A guy who attacked spiritual windmills that were never enemies, deceived, or anything you accused them of being. It would be sad to find you had attacked and labeled as, "deceived, deceiver, Biblically in error, heretic, etc. ad naseum", one whom the Lord has loved and called. For who are you to judge another mans servant?

I concur brother Solomon. This thread against Dr. Tozer is peevish, inaccurate, unholy, and at least slanderous. It has no spirit of purity, holiness, or truth. It is just another condemning spirit manifesting itself to exalt themselves in pride. A tree is known by its fruit.

I may not agree with Tozer on everything because He is human (fallible)but I believe that if he could speak to us today he would say don’t follow me but follow the Christ that I had striven to esteem highly and still came up short in all my labors.
This is my second post brethren and probably my last as I will not engage in censorious judgment of a brother who has labored before the Lord as Tozer and who has emphasized in several of his writings not to be misled by anyone but only be totally devoted to the Lord Jesus Christ and his teachings.
The last time I read in the bible of anyone accusing the brethren it was the devil and I am definitely not in league with him and I will not talk about anyone who is not still with us and as one who is highly esteemed among the brethren as Tozer and not being able to tell us what some inquisitive minds want to know. I have better things to do with my God given time.

And Brethren, just so you know, I don’t consider anyone infallible other than our Lord Jesus Christ but I fear the Lord too much to engage in any type of censorious judgment of another brother. What ever measure of judgment we use against another brother will be used against us.
Blessings to you all!

Censorious Judgment (Mt 7:1-5).
1. Judge not, that ye be not judged--To "judge" here does not exactly mean to pronounce condemnatory judgment, nor does it refer to simple judging at all, whether favorable or the reverse. The context makes it clear that the thing here condemned is that disposition to look unfavorably on the character and actions of others, which leads invariably to the pronouncing of rash, unjust, and unlovely judgments upon them. No doubt it is the judgments so pronounced which are here spoken of; but what our Lord aims at is the spirit out of which they spring. Provided we eschew this unlovely spirit, we are not only warranted to sit in judgment upon a brother's character and actions, but in the exercise of a necessary discrimination are often constrained to do so for our own guidance. It is the violation of the law of love involved in the exercise of a censorious disposition which alone is here condemned. And the argument against it--"that ye be not judged"--confirms this: "that your own character and actions be not pronounced upon with the like severity"; that is, at the great day. -JFB

I was reading Towser's book The Pursit of God..

In Chapter 6, I came across this statement based on the verse John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Towzer said:

We have not given sufficient attention to that deep utterance in the Book of John,

"That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world."

Shift the punctuation around as we will and the truth is still there: the Word of God affects the hearts of all men as light in the soul.

In the hearts of all men the light shines, the Word sounds, and there is no escaping them.

Something like this would of necessity be so if God is alive and in His world. And John says that it is so.

So Towzer says that; In the hearts of all men the light shines........

But what does John say

John 1:6-12 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.

The light came to all men but we must believe in the him who is the light before we recieve the light....

2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Again we see Satan has blinded the minds of them that don't believe so that the light of the Gospel of Christ doesn't shine unto them....

Towzer teaching that "In the hearts of all men the light shines" is a lie we the justifed know that when we recieved him (the light) he entered our hearts........

Towzer twists scripture to make it conform to what he believes to be true and shows his mystical theology..

This reminds of what Jeanne Guyon the mystic believed that "God was in us all, and that we could and should find Him within"

What did the light say; "Take heed that no man deceives you" Matthew 24:4

Brothertom

No one can say for sure if someone had a salvation experience without contact with them. On the day we stand before the Lord we may all be surprised by who is, and isn't, there. How may of us walk in this?

Matthew 25:31-46 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

In that day it will not matter if we corrected all wrongs, or championed rightly dividing the word of truth, or worshipped just the right way, but we will stand or fall based on these verses. The greatest of these is love. Where is the love here? Mercy is very important to God, we will be shown the same degree of mercy we have shown.

Towzer said:

We have not given sufficient attention to that deep utterance in the Book of John,

"That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world."

Shift the punctuation around as we will and the truth is still there: the Word of God affects the hearts of all men as light in the soul.

In the hearts of all men the light shines, the Word sounds, and there is no escaping them.

Something like this would of necessity be so if God is alive and in His world. And John says that it is so.

"So Towzer says that; In the hearts of all men the light shines........"

"Towzer teaching that "In the hearts of all men the light shines" is a lie we the justifed know that when we recieved him (the light) he entered our hearts........"

It sounds like Towzer's words are being twisted again.
John the apostle is the one who said it. John 1:9
There is the light of conscience. God is faithful to humanity. That is different than the light of salvation.

I will readily admit that I am in no way as smart as you guys who seemed to be called to judge Tozer by his writings. I sure wouldn’t want to be in your shoes.

Colin, why didn’t you give the whole context of his writing?

I don’t understand your accusations of Tozer. Here is the passage out of chapter 6:

“We have not given sufficient attention to that deep utterance in the book of John, "That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world" (1:9). Shift the punctuation around as we will, the truth is still there: The Word of God affects the hearts of all men as light in the soul. In the hearts of all men the light shines, the Word sounds, and there is no escaping them. Something like this would of necessity be so if God is alive and in His world. And John says that it is so. Even those persons who have never heard of the Bible have still been preached to with sufficient clarity to remove every excuse from their hearts forever. "Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another" (Romans 2:15). "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse" (1:20). -The Pursuit of God.

I see nothing wrong with what He is trying to say. He is saying that all men will be without excuse. Here is another scripture that says the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared unto all men but that doesn’t mean that the grace of God was received by all men unto salvation.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Tozer truly believe that all men must receive the light of salvation and be born again from above if he was to be considered one of God’s elect.

Jesus truly said that there would be some who would strain out a gnat but end up swallowing a camel.

Matthew 23:24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

Now I know that none of us want this scripture to be fulfilled in our own lives and I believe better of you than for any on here to fulfill this scripture.

Blessings to you all!

Towzer teaching that "In the hearts of all men the light shines" is a lie we the justifed know that when we recieved him (the light) he entered our hearts

Is it possible that you have taken Mr. Tozer and Ms. Guyon out of context? In the example of The Pursuit of God, in chapter 6 of his book, Mr. Tozer is merely making the point that the God of our universe has clearly spoken to all men down through the ages. "God is there and He has spoken" - as Francis Schaeffer would say - is the gist of the chapter. In the sentences following the quote that you took out of context from Tozer's book he wrote...

"Even those persons who have never heard of the Bible have still been preached to with sufficient clarity to remove every excuse from their hearts forever. `Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while either accusing or else excusing one another.' (Rom 2:15) `For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.' (Rom 1:20)"

Tozer calls this speaking the Universal Voice of God and he says this about the Universal Voice...

"This universal Voice of God was by the ancient Hebrews often called Wisdom, and was said to be everywhere sounding and searching throughout the earth, seeking some response from the sons of men. The eighth chapter of the Book of Proverbs begins, `Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?' The writer then pictures wisdom as a beautiful woman standing `in the top of the high places, by the way in the places of the paths.' She sounds her voice from every quarter so that no one may miss hearing it. `Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of men.' Then she pleads for the simple and the foolish to give ear to her words. It is spiritual response for which this Wisdom of God is pleading, a response which she has always sought and is but rarely able to secure. The tragedy is that our eternal welfare depends upon our hearing, and we have trained our ears not to hear."

He is not twisting Scripture to accomodate his mystical theology as you suggest.

Also, concerning the Guyon quote, could you please provide the reference so we can look at the context?

In Christ,

Ron

Towzer teaching that "In the hearts of all men the light shines" is a lie we the justifed know that when we recieved him (the light) he entered our hearts

Colin,

I will remind you of:

Proverbs 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
Proverbs 6:17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
Proverbs 6:18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
Proverbs 6:19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

Blessings to you!

Guys I can't believe that your warning me.

If you can't seed the Mysticism in Towser writings then all I can say is that your minds have blinded!!!!!!

To help you IF your willing to listen here are the Chapters in A. W. Tozer’s, The Pursuit of God, with a few of the unbiblical and/or mystical phrases.

Chapter 1
Following Hard after God

All is of God
God is always previous
man must pursue God
experience of the Divine
Creating Personality, God
throbbing heart of New Testament religion
feel the heat of their desire after God
torrent of spiritual desire
his burning desire after Christ
to taste, to touch with their hearts
to see with their inner eyes the wonder that is God
our expanding hearts
to sacrifice the many for the One
we Christians are in real danger of losing God amid the wonders of His Word

Chapter 2
The Blessedness of Possessing Nothing

We must ascend a step at a time.
know God in growing intimacy
inward bleeding

Chapter 3
Removing the Veil

to push in to conscious awareness of His Presence
interior journey of the soul
push on into His Presence
Flame of the Presence
the need to experience that Presence actually
the manifest Presence
wrenched loose from that `blissful center’

Chapter 4
Apprehending God

A spiritual kingdom lies all about us…within reach of our inner selves
only One who is Absolute, that is God
Absolute One
great Reality is God
fixed points in the universe
By the deep wisdom of life
real and the imaginary
the great unseen Reality is God
we can rise to unlimited heights
our inner eyes
taste and hear and inwardly feel the God who is our life and our all
God will become to us the great All

Chapter 5
The Universal Presence

the divine immanence
the doctrine of the divine Presence
transcendent above all His works even while He is immanent within them
think on them and pray over them until they begin to glow within us.
The Universal Presence is a fact
We will know Him in increasing degree

Chapter 6
The Speaking Voice

He fills the world with His speaking Voice.
the living Voice of God immanent in His creation
This word of God is the breath of God filling the world with living potentiality.
universal Voice of God
The order and life of the world depend upon that Voice
[The concept of the speaking voice seems to be from the "Imitation of Christ" by Thomas a Kempis.]

Chapter 7
The Gaze of the Soul

faith is the gaze of a soul upon a saving God.
a continuous gaze of the heart at the Triune God
volitional act which establishes the heart’s intention to gaze forever upon Jesus
a habit of soul is forming
faith is occupied with the Object upon which it rests
lift our inward eyes to gaze upon God
eyes of the soul looking out
the eyes of God looking in
the all-seeing eyes of God
nor ever turn aside the eyes of my mind
Thou, who are Love’s self
constantly practice this habit of inwardly gazing upon God
we shall be ushered onto a new level of spiritual life
without special equipment or religious paraphernalia
can never be subject to the caprice of accident

Edit:- spelling mistake

Guys I can't believe that your warning me. If you can't seed the Mysticism in Towser writings then all I can say is that your minds have blinded!!!!!!

Colin, my response to your post does not say that there is no mysticism in Tozer's writings, in fact, I wasn't writing to address mysticism at all. I was writing to address your statement that Tozer lied when he wrote "In the hearts of all men the light shines". I was trying to point out that I believe that particular contention is the result of taking his statement out of context and is therefore not a valid point for your case.

Also, would still like to look at the reference for the Guyon quote.

In Christ,

Ron

Colin,

This is my 3rd post to you and you can refer back to the other 2 in what I have stated. Here are a few more scriptures and I would also like to hear your response to Ron.

Blessings to you!

Proverbs 12:17 He that speaketh truth sheweth forth righteousness: but a false witness deceit.

Proverbs 19:5 A false witness shall not be unpunished, and he that speaketh lies shall not escape.

Proverbs 25:18 A man that beareth false witness against his neighbour is a maul, and a sword, and a sharp arrow.

Exodus 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

Exodus 23:1 Thou shalt not raise a false report: put not thine hand with the wicked to be an unrighteous witness.

Deuteronomy 19:16 If a false witness rise up against any man to testify against him that which is wrong;

Deuteronomy 19:17 Then both the men, between whom the controversy is, shall stand before the LORD, before the priests and the judges, which shall be in those days;

Deuteronomy 19:18 And the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, if the witness be a false witness, and hath testified falsely against his brother;

Deuteronomy 19:19 Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother: so shalt thou put the evil away from among you.

Deuteronomy 19:20 And those which remain shall hear, and fear, and shall henceforth commit no more any such evil among you.

Psalms 27:12 Deliver me not over unto the will of mine enemies: for false witnesses are risen up against me, and such as breathe out cruelty.

Psalms 35:11 False witnesses did rise up; they laid to my charge things that I knew not.

Matthew 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

Matthew 26:59 Now the chief priests, and elders, and all the council, sought false witness against Jesus, to put him to death;

Acts 6:13 And set up false witnesses, which said, This man ceaseth not to speak blasphemous words against this holy place, and the law: Proverbs 6:14 Frowardness is in his heart, he deviseth mischief continually; he soweth discord.

Proverbs 16:28 A froward man soweth strife: and a whisperer separateth chief friends.

Proverbs 22:10 Cast out the scorner, and contention shall go out; yea, strife and reproach shall cease.

Proverbs 26:20 Where no wood is, there the fire goeth out: so where there is no talebearer, the strife ceaseth.

2 Timothy 2:23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

James 3:14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.

James 3:15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.

James 3:16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.

James 3:18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

3 John 1:9 I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not.

3 John 1:10 Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church.

Brother Tom wrote:
Secondly, I am not accusing Tozer at all, but methodically showing, through Tozer's own words and writing, how he derived much of his insight. In the end, it is but my opinion, my insight. He adored, and highly esteemed the Catholic mystics, who he believed to be "masters of the inner life!"...[ Tozer's words referring to Evelyn Underhill; the mother of modern mystic awareness. [ A devout ecumenicalist,who schooled Buddhists and Catholics on transcendental awareness.]

I say this with all due respect, but it is you, Tom, who is inserting your Catholic phobias onto Tozer who by the way is not even here to defend himself against your vain insight and opinion.

Tom wrote again:
Herein does the confusion lie. If Tozer was of a superior ilk, a true Divine insight, do I follow his methods, and accept his ideas to do the same? They worked for him; why not me?

Tom, you follow Jesus Christ and Him crucified, period. All this other stuff is vain, vain conversation.

God bless you while you move on,

Psa 1:1\tBlessed [is] the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.

Question: Is there anything "mystical" about salvation? Or, is it all head knowledge?

Can heart knowledge be correct and head knowledge be defective?
Can head knowledge be correct and heart knowledge be defective?
Or do we all have to agee with Bro Tom and/or Tom Riggle?
Just wondering...

Oh Rbanks you misunderstand we are to judge every prophecy, the fruit in our lives and in the lives of others. You need to judge everything you see, hear or read. If not, you will be submitted to every wind of evil doctrine and fall into many hurtful traps.

Bothertom has made things easier for me.......Thanks

Presently he replied, “It is, madame, because you seek without what you have within. Accustom yourself to seek God in your heart, and you will there find Him.”

!!!These words brought into my heart what I had been seeking so many years. Rather they discovered to me what was there, and which I had not enjoyed for want of knowing it.!!!

!!!O my Lord, Thou wast in my heart, and demanded only a simple turning of my mind inward, to make me perceive Thy presence.!!!

!!!Oh, Infinite Goodness! how was I running hither and thither to seek Thee, my life was a burden to me, although my happiness was within myself."!!!

Here's one from Meister Eckhart he specifically declared "that there is a non-creaturely, uncreated aspect of the soul, which is always already perfectly one with God"

So as we can see the Mystic's taught and believed that God is within as Meister Eckhart says the "uncreated aspect of the soul,” which is always already perfectly one with God"

Know lets look at Tozer The pursuit of God Chapter 6 The speaking God.........

He wants to put someting across at a point he highlights a verse John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Tozer writes "Shift the punctuation around as we will and the truth is still there

Okay here it comes lets shift it around Tozer writes the “Word of God affects the hearts of all men as light in the soul." "In the hearts of all men the light shines, the Word sounds, and there is no escaping them"

Nothing like the verse he quoted as he did more that move the punctuation around but what he is getting at is this. "In the hearts of all men the light shines"

Know this is the statement I have a problem with "In the hearts of all men the light shines" as he has chopped up the scripture to get to what he believes….

Paul tell us that the God of the world has blinded those who believe not lest the Gospel shines unto us, 2 Corinthians 4:4, Paul then goes onto say “that hath shined in our hearts, For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ Corinthians 4:6.

The Gospel is hid from those that are lost, they are blinded and unless God commands that light to shine, out of the darkness and gives the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ then there is no light shining in our hearts......

This is very opposite of what Tozer says "In the hearts of all men the light shines"

The light does not shine in the heart of all men, the light only shines in the heart of men who have believed on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Hence the saying "I have seen the light"

Know if you look at the Mystic's teaching again "that there is a non-creaturely, uncreated aspect of the soul, which is always already perfectly one with God"

If we have an area that is “perfectly one with God in the uncreated aspect of the Soul” then that are would be an area of light, because God is light, and in him there is no darkness at all. 1 John 1:5

This statement from Tozer "In the hearts of all men the light shines" is exactly what a Mystic would say, it's unbiblical and false…………

Guyon on being born again; in context, word for word.

Tom, I don't believe that she is speaking of being born-again there. She speaks of her conversion experience in chapter 4 of her autobiography. In what you have quoted from chapter 8 she is speaking of a work God did in her heart afterwards through enlightening the words of Christ, "The kingdom of God cometh not with observation ... The kingdom of God is within you." Similar happenings have been the experience of numerous Christians and Andrew Murray wrote about it in his book The Two Covenants and the Second Blessing.

Call it blubber if you will but I think she and Tozer both had a deep intimacy with Christ in the inner sanctuary.

In Christ,

Ron

It sounds like Towzer's words are being twisted again.
John the apostle is the one who said it. John 1:9
There it is the light of conscience. God is faithful to humanity. That is different than the light of salvation.

"Some of us have spent so much time fighting what we are against that we can barely remember what we are for." Shane Claiborne

Tom, I'm glad that you can see that she was not speaking of being born-again in chapter 8.

In regards to sewing Jesus name onto her skin, perhaps you can remember your newfound zeal after your conversion and perhaps you can forgive her for her zeal without knowledge. Due to the spiritual darkness of the age in which she lived she didn't have some of the light we have today but ironically, I believe she had a simple intimacy with the Lord Jesus Christ that few of our generation know.

In Christ,

Ron

This witch hunt has gone on long enough.

Do you think it is possible that the pagan religions tried (under satan's influence) to imitate true salvation with it's experiential aspects without Christ? Thus satan has led them astray because the pagan religions do not know Christ.
Bro. Tom, is there such a thing as experiential salvation? Or is it just a chang of record in heaven and no regeneration of the soul?

Amen.

REVELATION IS NOT ENOUGH

[A. W. Tozer]

The following message by the late Dr. A. W. Tozer, to be included in a further volume of addresses by him now in preparation, is, we feel, so much in keeping with the ministry of A Witness and A Testimony, that we borrow it for our readers, assured that they will be very glad to read it. It was recently in The Alliance Witness of the Christian and Missionary Alliance. And while mentioning this, may I say that, in early years of ministry and the Lord's work, I owed very much to the life of Dr. A. B. Simpson, founder of that 'Alliance'. - Editor.

"About the midst of the feast Jesus went up into the temple, and taught. And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned? Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself" (John 7:14-17).

THE key, the crux of this whole issue, is in verse 17. If any man is willing to do God's will, he shall know.

People marvelled at our Lord as He taught. They asked: "How knoweth this man letters having never learned?" 'How does He know learning', in other words, 'never having studied in the regular schools?' In those days they had no schools as we know them; a rabbi taught little groups of students. Our Lord evidently never attended a rabbinical school so they asked: 'How does He get His wonderful doctrine, since He has never been to the schools of the rabbis?'

Now, this question tells us a good deal about these people. It tells us that they held truth to be intellectual merely, capable of being reduced to a code. To know truth it was necessary only to learn the code.

Most of them had no books of their own -- they learned by memorizing. That was their conception of truth. I gather this not only from verse 17 but from the whole Gospel of John. To these people truth was an intellectual thing -- just as we know that two times two is four.

That is truth, but it is an intellectual truth only. They reduced divine truth to that status. They knew the laws: "Thou shalt have no other gods before me.... Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.... Thou shalt not ...". But to them there was no mysterious depth in truth, nothing beneath and nothing beyond the obvious fact. It was exactly here that they parted company with our Saviour, for our Lord Jesus constantly taught the beyond and the beneath.

These people believed that the words of truth were the truth. And here is a basic misunderstanding of Christian theology with a moral and spiritual consequence that is vastly important. They believed that if you had the words of truth, if you could repeat the code of truth, you had the truth. That if you lived by the word of truth you lived in the truth.

The Saviour tried to correct this inadequate view. He showed them the heavenly quality of His message. He said: 'My doctrine is not Mine -- I am not a rabbi teaching doctrine that you can memorize and repeat. What I am giving you is not that kind of doctrine at all.'

He had said previously: 'I say nothing for Myself -- what I see the Father do, that I do, and what the Father speaks, that I speak. What I have seen yonder I tell you about. I am a transparent medium through which the truth is being spoken. You believe that the way to truth is to go to a rabbi and learn it. That's not the truth, that approach to truth is inadequate.'

Here, it seems to me, is the weakness in modern Christianity. The battle line, the warfare today, is not necessarily between the fundamentalist and the liberal. There is a difference between them, of course. The fundamentalist says God made the heaven and the earth. The liberal says: 'Well, that's a poetic way of stating it; actually it came up by evolution.' The fundamentalist says Jesus Christ was the very Son of God. The liberal says: 'Well, He certainly was a wonderful man and He is the Master, but I don't quite know about His deity.' So there is a division, but I don't think the warfare is on these matters any more.

The battle has shifted to another more important field. The warfare, the dividing line today, is between evangelical rationalists and evangelical mystics. I will explain what I mean.

There is today an evangelical rationalism which is the same as these Jews had. They said the truth is in the word, and if you want to know truth, go to the rabbi and learn the word. If you get the word, you have got the truth. That is evangelical rationalism and we have that today in fundamental circles. 'If you learn the text you've got the truth.'

This evangelical rationalism will kill the truth just as quickly as liberalism will, though in more subtle way. The liberal stands over there and says: 'I don't believe your inspired Bible; I don't believe your deified Christ. I believe the Bibles in a way; it is the record of the high points of great men and I believe in a certain mystic communion with the universe and it is all very wonderful, but I don't believe as you do.'

You can easily spot this man -- train your glasses on him and there he stands. You can tell he is on the other side, for he wears the uniform of the other side.

But your evangelical rationalist wears our uniform. He comes in wearing our uniform and says what the Pharisees, the worst enemies Jesus had while He was on earth, said: 'Well, truth is truth, and if you believe the truth you've got it.

Such see no beyond and no mystic depth, no mysterious heights, nothing supernatural or divine. They see only: "I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth: and in Jesus Christ His only Son, our Lord." They have the text and the code and the creed, and to them that is the truth. So they pass it on to others. The result is we are dying spiritually.

Now, what about the evangelical mystic? I don't really like the word 'mystic' because you think of a fellow with long hair and a little goatee who acts dreamy and strange. Maybe it is not a good word at all, but I am talking about the spiritual side of things -- that the truth is more than the text. There is something that you've got to get through to. The truth is more than the code. There is a heart beating in the middle of the code and you've got to get there.

Now the question is simply this: Is the body of Christian truth enough? Or does truth have a soul as well as a body? The evangelical rationalist says that all of that talk about the soul of truth is poetic nonsense. The body of truth is all you need; if you believe the body of truth you are on your way to heaven and you can't backslide and everything will be allright and you will get a crown in the last day.

Now otherwise stated: Is revelation enough or must there be illumination? Is this Bible an inspired book? Is it a revealed book? Of course you and I believe that it is a revelation, that God spoke all these words and holy men spoke as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

I believe that this Bible is a living book, that God has given it to us and that we dare not add to it or take away from it. It is revelation. But revelation is not enough. There must be illumination before revelation can get to your soul. It isn't enough that I hold an inspired book in my hands. I must have an inspired heart. There is the difference.

You can memorize all the texts of the Bible -- and I believe in memorizing -- but when you are through you've got nothing but the body. There is the soul of truth as well as the body. There is a divine inward illumination the Holy Ghost must give us or we don't know what truth means.

Conversion is a miraculous act of God by the Holy Ghost; it must be wrought in the spirit. The body of truth is not enough; there must be an inward illumination.

Christ's conflict was with the theological rationalist. It revealed itself in the Sermon on the Mount and the whole Book of John. Just as Colossians argues against Manichaeism and Galatians argues against Jewish legalism, so the Book of John is a long, inspired, passionately outpoured book trying to save us from evangelical rationalism, the doctrine [19/20] that says the text is enough. Textualism is as deadly as liberalism.

Now revelation, I repeat, can't save. Revelation is the ground upon which we stand. Revelation tells us what to believe. It is the Book of God and I stand for it with all my heart; but there must be, before I can be saved, illumination, penitence, renewal, inward deliverance.

I have no doubt that many people are eased into the kingdom. They are jockeyed into believing in the text, and they do; but they have never been illuminated by the Holy Ghost. They have never been renewed in their hearts. They never get into the kingdom at all.

Now, there is a secret in divine truth altogether hidden from the unprepared soul. This is where we stand in the terrible day in which we live. Christianity is not something you just reach up and grab. There must be a preparation of the mind, a preparation of the life and a preparation of the inner man before we can savingly believe in Jesus Christ.

Somebody asks: Is it possible to hear the truth and not understand the truth? Listen to Isaiah: "Hear ye indeed, but understand not, and see ye indeed, but perceive not" (6:9). It is possible to see yet not perceive.

Paul says (1 Corinthians 2:4-5): "My speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: that your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God."

Now the theological rationalists say that your faith should stand not in the wisdom of man but in the Word of God. Paul didn't say that at all. He said your faith should stand in the power of God. That's quite a different thing.

Verses 9 through 14 say: "Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.... But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

Paul, the man of God, is saying: I came preaching and I preached with power that would illuminate and get to the conscience and to the spirit and change the inner man in order that your faith might stand in the power of God.

My brethren, your faith can stand in the text and you can be as dead as the proverbial doornail, but when the power of God moves in on the text and sets the sacrifice on fire, then you have Christianity. We call that revival, but it's not revival at all. It is simply New Testament Christianity. It's what it ought to have been in the first place, but was not.

Now look at Matthew 11: "Jesus answered and said, I thank thee O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father, neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him."

So there we have the doctrine taught plainly that there is not only a body of truth which we must hold at our peril; there is also a soul in that body which we must get through to, and if we don't get through to the soul of truth we have only a dead body on our hands.

A church can go on holding the creed. and the truth for years and generations and grow old and die, and new people come up and receive that same code and they grow old and die.

Then some revivalist comes in and gets everybody stirred and prayer moves God down on the scene and revival comes to that church. People who thought they were saved get saved. People who have only believed in a code now believe in Christ.

A man will go along in a church and believe texts and quote them and memorize them and teach them and maybe become a deacon and all the rest. Then one day, under the fiery preaching of some visitor or maybe the pastor, he suddenly feels himself terribly in need of God and he forgets all his past history and goes to his knees and like David begins to pour out his soul in confession. Then he leaps to his feet and testifies: 'I've been a deacon in this church twenty-six years and never was born again until tonight.'

What happened? That man had been trusting the dead body of truth until some inspired preacher let him know that truth has a soul. Or maybe God taught him in secret that truth had a soul as well as a body and he dared to get through and pursue by penitence and obedience until God honoured his faith and flashed the light on. And like lightning out of heaven it touched his spirit and all the texts he had memorized became alive.

Thank God, he did memorize the texts and all the truth he knew suddenly now bloomed in the light. That is why I believe we ought to memorize. That is why we ought to get to know the Word, why we ought to fill our minds with the songs and the great hymns of the church. They won't mean anything to us until the Holy Ghost comes. But when He comes He will have fuel to use. Fire without fuel won't burn but fuel without fire is dead. And the Holy Ghost will not come on a church where there is no Biblical fuel. There must be Bible teaching. We must have the body of truth.

Jesus said if any man is willing to do God's will, he shall know -- he shall know the doctrine, he shall know the teaching. Now, this body of truth can be grasped by the average, normal intellect. You can grasp truth, but only the enlightened soul will ever know the truth and only the prepared heart will ever be enlightened.

And just what is the preparation needed? Jesus said: 'If any man is willing to do My will the light will flash in on him. If any man will obey Me, God will enlighten his soul immediately.'

We make Jesus Christ a convenience. We make Him a lifeboat to get us to shore, a guide to find us when we are lost. We reduce Him simply to Big Friend to help us when we are in trouble.

That is not Christianity. Jesus Christ is Lord. But when a man is willing to do His will, he is repenting and the truth flashes in.

No man can know the Son except the Father tell him. No man can know the Father except the Son reveal Him. I can know about God, that's the body of truth. But I can't know God, the soul of truth, unless I am ready to be obedient.

Before the Word of God can mean anything inside of me there must be obedience to the Word. Truth will not give itself to a rebel. Truth will not impart life to a man who will not obey the light! "If we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." If you are disobeying Jesus Christ you can't expect to be enlightened.

But there is illumination. I know what Charles Wesley meant when he wrote: "His spirit answers to the blood, And tells me I am born of God!" Nobody had to come and tell me what he meant. 'He that is willing to do My will,' said Jesus, 'shall have a revelation to his own heart. He shall have an inward illumination that tells him he is a child of God.'

If a sinner goes to the altar and a worker with a marked New Testament argues him into the kingdom, the devil will meet him two blocks down the street and argue him out of it again. But if he has an inward illumination and he has that witness within because the Spirit answers to the blood, you can't argue with that man. He will say: 'But I know.' A man like that is not bigoted or arrogant, he is just sure.

Now that's revival, but yet it is not revival either; it is normal Christianity. It's the way we should be. "If any man will do his will, he shall know."

But you say you're going to take a Bible course. If you are holding out on God, refusing to follow Jesus, you can take a course and learn all about synthesis and analysis and all the rest. But you might just as well read Pogo; all the courses in the world won't illuminate you inside. You can fill your head full of knowledge, but the day that you decide you are going to obey God it will get down into your heart. You shall know. Only the servants of truth can ever know truth. Only those who obey can ever have the inward change.

You can stand on the outside and can know all about it. I once read a book about the inner spiritual life by a man who was not a Christian at all. He had an amazing penetration. He was a sharp intellectual, a keen Englishman. He stood outside and examined spiritual people from the outside but nothing ever reached him.

You can read your Bible -- read any version you want -- and if you are honest you will admit that it is either obedience or inward blindness. You can repeat the Book of Romans word for word and still be blind inwardly. You can quote the whole Book of Psalms and still be blind inwardly. You can know the doctrine of justification by faith and take your stand with Luther and the Reformation, and be blind inwardly. For it is not the body of truth that enlightens; it is the Spirit of truth that enlightens.

If you are willing to obey the Lord Jesus He will illuminate your spirit, inwardly enlighten you, and the truth you have known will now be known spiritually and power will begin to flow up and out and you will find yourself changed, marvellously changed. In that great day of Christ's coming all that will matter is whether or not I have been inwardly illuminated. Inwardly regenerated. Inwardly purified.

Do I know Jesus?
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yes, the moderators should shut this thing at once.

Neil and everyone else, we have been monitoring this thread closely, just like the Madame Guyon one which preceded it. People are entitled to their opinions regarding others' ministries.

Has there ever, in the history of the church, been one man or woman of whom it can be said was 100% right in all they said, wrote, did? Tozer, like Ravenhill, had shortcomings, this is for sure. Spurgeon did also. As did the great Puritans. Sometimes I think God allows us to hold such varied views and conjectures of faith (within a proper Christian salvific realm, that is) to break us and prevent any cookie-cutter mindsets. God doesn't need 10,000 John Calvins, or David Wilkersons, or A.W. Tozers or Smith Wigglesworths. He treats us all as individuals and gives us room to interpret and exhort the finer points of His Word in accordance to our own idiosyncracies, propensities and talents.

Tozer was influenced by the mystics because that was the avenue he felt most at home with and was most profoundly influenced by. Ravenhill was also eclectic in this regard, taking and quoting from many different theological persuasions. Spurgeon, it is recalled, read Finney's papers and was much more tolerant of his ministry than many of today's ascerbic Spurgeonites seem to be. In all these men we can find both weaknesses and strengths. Telling the difference between them comes with much growth and maturity. At the level you are now, simply take what's beneficial from each man and discard that which does not agree with your spirit. Leave the rest to the Lord and then hold your flaming tongue. God will not hold us culpable for disagreeing with Tozer or any other man, but He will judge us for publically maligning them with accusations of heresy just because their expression of ministry didn't jibe with our own.

I fear that many of us are in for a cataclysmic shock on the day of judgment when we see that guys like Finney and Calvin, Sister Jean Guyon and Brother Lawrence and all those who entrusted their salvation to the shed blood of Christ are divinely accepted and crowned in the beloved, while we ourselves who spent so much time and energy sharpshooting their ministries suffering grievous loss as result.

Brother Paul

Pursuit of God Chapter 1: Following hard after God

We need not fear that in seeking God only we may narrow our lives or restrict the motions of our expanding hearts. The opposite is true. We can well afford to make God our All, to concentrate, to sacrifice the many for the One

The author of the quaint old English classic, The Cloud of Unknowing, teaches us how to do this. "Lift up thine heart unto Gel with a meek stirring of love; and mean Himself, and none of His goods. And thereto, look thee loath to think on aught but God Himself. So that nought work in thy wit, nor in thy will, but only God Himself. This is the work of the soul that most pleaseth God."

Again, he recommends that in prayer we practice a further stripping down of everything, even of our theology. "For it sufficeth enough, a naked intent direct unto God without any other cause than Himself." Yet underneath all his thinking lay the broad foundation of New Testament truth, for he explains that by "Himself" he means "God that made thee, and bought thee, and that graciously called thee to thy degree." And he is all for simplicity: If we would have religion "lapped and folden in one word, for that thou shouldst have better hold thereupon, take thee but a little word of one syllable: for so it is better than of two, for even the shorter it is the better it accordeth with the work of the Spirit. And such a word is this word GOD or this word LOVE."

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Tozer in the first chapter of his book I have tried to keep the context with it....

He is encouraging us to make God our All, he then quotes from a book calling it a "quaint old English classic" The Cloud of Unknowing....

Tozer is misleading you at this point as The Cloud of the Unknowing in no "quaint old English classic".

Quote taken from Wikipedia; The Cloud of Unknowing is an anonymous work of Christian mysticism written in Middle English in the latter half of the 14th century. The text is a spiritual guide on contemplative prayer and the esoteric techniques and meanings of late medieval monasticism.

Know you might say so what, but you must take note of these words he uses "The author of the quaint old English classic, The Cloud of Unknowing, teaches us how to do this"

So Tozer is saying Give all to God AND THIS IS HOW YOU DO IT.....

Please note this other quote from Tozer; "Again, he recommends that in prayer we practice a further stripping down of everything, even of our theology."

So what type of prayer are we to practice "take thee but a little word of one syllable" then he recommends the word to use "And such a word is this word GOD or this word LOVE"

My dear people you are being encouraged by Tozer to "give God your All"..."by stripping down of everything, even of our theology"...praying one simple word like "God" or "Love"

Do you you know what they call this prayer practice today, they call it soaking prayer, centering prayer or contemplavtive prayer.

This is Gibraltar that ties Tozer to Mystical practices which he encourages you to do and it's in plain sight written in his book.

A. W. Towzer is a Mystic and encouraged others to follow in those Demonical practices....

hi,in my time with len ravenhill,he often spoke with great love of bro.tozer and how every afternoon he would lay down on a mat and and worship God for who He is... he told about how he would be quiet before the Lord and received most of what he wrote from the Holy Spirit during these times alone with God.what is so wrong with this.jimp are we not to meditate on Him and His love toward us.

I've learned much from the Mystics. As I have many others.

Is my salvation now in question as well?

Hi eveyrone.

Something from Wayneman follows:

"It displays the sort of intellectual laziness that is characteristic of professional heresy-hunters. The author impugns Dr. Tozer on account of his affinity for medieval mystics, but he doesn't explain what exactly is wrong with medieval mysticism. He just throws the word "Catholic" around like an expletive."

This was much of my initial impression after quickly scanning over the article. It continues to be as I have taken some time to look more closely.

This assesment following is particularly striking:

"It displays the sort of intellectual laziness that is characteristic of professional heresy-hunters"

For instance, the author qoutes Dr. Tozer making a reference to one of the catholic writers, saying this:

"Now according to Tozer's first quote, in the introduction, the Word of God is an essential, yet now the whole issue is in doubt as we read the last paragraph 5: We must, so teaches our guide (the nameless mystic writer of "Cloud of Unknowing"), strip away from ourselves ... "even of our theology"!"

He says that he has been carefull to qoute the entire paragraph so that none can accuse him of 'cherry-picking qoutes', but is he as carefull in his characterisation in what followed? Did Dr. Tozer and the catholic writer he refered to, espouse stripping away from ourselves our theology?

That isn't the impression I got from reading the entire qoute that he provided.

On the contrary, he qualifies the writers intent by explaining that:

'...underneath all his thinking lay the broad foundation of New Testament truth, for he explains that by "Himself" he means "God that made thee, and bought thee, and that graciously called thee to thy degree."'

God as Creator(made thee), Redeemer(bought thee), and Sanctifier(called thee), is not empty or absent theology at all. It is fundemental theology of the New Covenant put in simple terms. Which is what, appearantly, the catholic writer was suggesting we approach God with in our thoughts unto prayer.

This, and coments like

"..hocus-pocus theology of Tozer's."

Give me the impression that the author is not being carefull or sincere in his evaluations of Dr. Tozers writings. That is putting it(I think) in kind terms becuase it could imply something far worse.

Brothertom, I agree with you that Dr. Tozer's refrences to catholic writers is troubling(at least to me), especially and more so because of being in a public writing meant for a large, and unknown audience. If it were in the context of a private discussion among associates with whom you could discourse face to face and to qualify and to correct statements on hand it (I think) would be something different.

On the other hand, and I think others have shown this, it doesn't appear to be as simple as demonstrating a connection between him and them to show what is wrong or not.

So far, for me, the article has highlighted what King Solomon had said, that in the multitude of words, there is no want of sin.

That must certainly be true for those that teach others.

And, for those who would publicly examine what others teach, or have taught.

John 7:16-18, 8:26

edited to correct errors in spelling ect...

len ravenhill,he often spoke with great love of bro.tozer and how every afternoon he would lay down on a mat and and worship God for who He is... he told about how he would be quiet before the Lord and received most of what he wrote from the Holy Spirit during these times alone with God. what is so wrong with this

Jimp one of the things he wrote(I guess he got the inspiration from one of those "quiet times") encouarging prodestant christians to practice the "Lectio Divina" (called today centring prayer, soaking prayer, breath prayer and/or contemplative payer) see my last post.

Lectio Divina:- is a fancy Latin term for "sacred reading" and has also been called "meditation on the Word" The concept of allowing God to speak through His Word is perfectly legitimate. I experience that when I read or meditate on the Bible.

I will let the 16th Century mystic Madame Guyon to describe the practice, "make use of scripture to quiet your mind. First read a passage of scripture. Once you sense the Lord’s presence, the content of what you read is no longer important. The scripture has served its purpose; it has quieted your mind; it has brought you to him. …You should always remember that you are not there to gain an understanding of what you have read; rather you are reading to turn your mind from the outward things to the deep parts of your being. You are not there to learn or to read, but you are there to experience the presence of your Lord!"

The concept of allowing God to speak through His Word is perfectly legitimate. I experience that when I read or meditate on the Bible. However, the purpose is not to contemplate the meaning of a Bible verse by thinking about it but is rather meant to gain an experience from it.

Richard Foster’s book, Devotional Classics where he teaches how to pratice the "Lectio Divina"

"Take a short passage and repeat it over and over again aloud. With each repetition, remove extraneous words until you've broken the passage down to one thought. An obvious example is John 14:27, which could easily be broken down to the word 'peace.'"

By using this practice, we are turning the Bible into a mystical device for personal revelations rather than a source of knowledge. By taking passages of Scripture, which have an intended meaning, and breaking them down into smaller, separate segments, often for the purpose of chanting over and over, the true meaning of the passages are lost. Rather a form of occult mysticism is practiced—with the hope and intention of gaining a mystical experience that God never intended when He gave the inspired words to His servants.

That my dear Jimp this is what Tozer is encouraging in his book Pursuit of God chapter 1 see last post

What does the Bible say; But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking" Matthew 6:7

Here is a couple of quotes from Spurgeon.

But, walking is a position, which also signifies actively. You would suppose, from the way in which some Christians deport themselves, that their whole life was spent in meditation. It is a blessed thing to sit "With Mary at the Master's feet;" but we walk as well as sit. We do not merely learn, but we practice what we know. We are not simply scholars, but, having been taught as scholars, we go on to show our scholarship by working in the vineyard, and wherever else the Master may be pleased to place us. The quietists and mystics are a class of people who have a peculiar attraction for my mind; and I suppose the mention of such a name as that of Madame Guyon, who, among females, stands at the very head of the school, will awaken in many of you many sweet remembrances of times enjoyed in reading her blessed hymns, and her sweet and admirable life. But, after all, it is not the highest style of Christian living to be a mystic or a quietist. "We walk." Some Christians seem as if they always sat; but "we walk." You would gather, indeed, from what others say, that the whole life of a Christian is to be spent in prayer. Prayer, it is true, is the vitality of the secret parts of Christian life, but we are not always on our knees, we are not constantly engaged in seeking blessings from heaven. We do "continue in prayer," but we are also engaged in showing forth to others the blessings which we have received, and in exhibiting in our daily actions the fruits which we have gathered on the mountain-top of communion with God. "We walk," and this implies activity. Oh! I would that some Christians would pay a little attention to their legs, instead of paying it all to their heads. Spurgeon's Collected Sermons (Met. Tabern. Pul.) - – Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit.

-quote-
Psalm 119:103. How sweet are thy words unto my taste!
Have you a spiritual taste, dear hearer? It is one thing to hear the Word it is another thing to taste it. Hearing the Word is often blessed, but tasting it is a more inward and spiritual thing; it is the enjoyment of the truth in the innermost parts of our being. Oh, that we were all as fond of the Word as were the old mystics who chewed the cud of meditation till they were fattened upon the Word of the Lord, and their souls grew strong in the divine love! I am sure of this,—the more you know of God's Word, the more you will love it. It is ignorance that misses the sweetness of it.
Spurgeon's Collected Sermons (Met. Tabern. Pul.) - – Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit.

Here is a quote from Tozer.

Do you love Jesus—really? It is possible to be a Christian, that is, to have faith in His power, in His work, in His atonement. It is even possible to have a vital relation to Him in the new birth and yet not have cultivated His fellowship to a point where we love Him very much. We're not finished until the love attachment to Christ has become so strong that it burns and glows and consumes.

When I read the writings of the old mystics and the devotional writers and hymn writers of the Middle Ages and later, I get sick in my heart and I tell God, "God, I'm sorry; I apologize and I'm ashamed. I don't love You the way these loved You." Read the letters of Samuel Rutherford. If you haven't, you should. Read those letters and then see how sick it'll make you. You'll fold that book shut and get down on your knees very likely and say, "Lord Jesus, do I love You at all considering that this was love? Then what have I, what have I got?"

There should be an emotional relationship to Jesus Christ, a relationship of love. "Thou hast left thy first love" (Revelation 2:4b) said the Lord Jesus, and maybe that is what it means. You have allowed things to cool you off like the young husband who really loves his bride but he's so busy making a living for her that he neglects her. I wonder if Jesus might not have had something like that in mind—"You are busy for Me, you are dashing here and there in My service, but you've left your first love."
What is this Christian then who has gone on until he sustains toward our Lord a right, a scriptural, a Spirit-inspired volitional and intellectual and emotional attitude toward the Savior? He is one who has been freed from earthly loves and fears.

Freedom from Earthly Loves
What do I mean by earthly love? I mean any love out of the will of God, any love that we would not allow God to take away. If you have anything in this world or anybody in this world that you would not let God take away from you, then you don't love Him as you should and you don't know anything about the deeper life in experience. For the Spirit-filled Christian life means that I am delivered from earthly loves to a point where there is no love that I would not allow Jesus Christ to take away—be it money, reputation, my home, my friends, my family or whatever it may be. The love of Jesus Christ has come in and swallowed up all other loves and sanctified them, purified them, made them holy and put them in their right relationship to that all-consuming love of God so that they're secondary and never primary.

I want to ask you this question: Is there anything or anyone on Earth that you love so much that you'd fight God if He wanted to take him? Then you are not where you should be and you might as well face up to it and not pretend to be something you're not. Complete freedom means that I want the will of God only. And if it is the will of God for me to have these things, then I love them for His sake, but I love them with a tentative and relative love and not an all-poured-out love that makes me a slave. It means that I love nothing outside the will of God and that I love only what and who He wills that I should love. Then you can love everybody.

I think Paul loved Timothy and Silas and Titus and the rest of them with a love that glowed like a furnace. But he didn't love them to a point where he could not separate from them or where he would fight God for them. He only loved them in the margin of his heart; he loved God at the center. He loved them for God's dear sake. This is Christianity.
Success and the Christian.-Tozer

Blessings to all!

Chris

That isn't the impression I got from reading the entire qoute that he provided.

Okay lets take away some bits so we can see what is promoted.

Tozer Pursuit of God Chapter 1 with some bits taken out:

In prayer we practice a further stripping down of everything, even of our theology, take thee but a little word of one syllable: for so it is better than of two, for even the shorter it is the better it accordeth with the work of the Spirit. And such a word is this word God or this word love.

Praying with one word is what is being promoted by the Monk and because Tozer has written in his book he is promoting the same........

Yes there is "New Testament truth" but there is no denying that there is promotion of prayer the Mystic's used. This type of Mystical prayer is on the rise today, again all mixed with "New Testament truth".....

Blah, blah, blah. same old argument.
I'm glad that some professed to know God and acted like it. They breathed prayer and had power with God. Sure, our theology should not stand in our way. Sometimes God may have to change our theology because we think we know all the answers. In reality we become dead. We stand before God as naked, Heb. 4:12-13.
The old timers used to talk about "praying through". Praying till we touched heaven.

"The concept of allowing God to speak through His Word is perfectly legitimate. I experience that when I read or meditate on the Bible. However, the purpose is not to contemplate the meaning of a Bible verse by thinking about it but is rather meant to gain an experience from it."

Colin, please consider the meaning of the word meditate which is found in the Webster's 1828 dictionary. In this dictionary, bible verses were often used. Also, please read a few of the scriptures in which the word meditate is used.

We are never to read the bible like we are reading a novel or a newspaper. Only the Holy Spirit can reveal the Word of God to us. We should prayerfully read the Word asking God to reveal His truth to us.

meditate
MED'ITATE, v.i. [L. meditor.]

1. To dwell on any thing in thought; to contemplate; to study; to turn or revolve any subject in the mind; appropriately but not exclusively used of pious contemplation, or a consideration of the great truths of religion.

His delight is in the law of the Lord, and in his law doth he meditate day and night. Ps.1.

2. To intend; to have in contemplation.

I meditate to pass the remainder of life in a state of undisturbed repose.
MED'ITATE, v.t. To plan by revolving in the mind; to contrive; to intend.

Some affirmed that I meditated a war.

1. To think on; to revolve in the mind.

Blessed is the man that doth meditate good things.

Genesis 24:63 KJV
And Isaac went out to meditate in the field at the eventide: and he lifted up his eyes, and saw , and, behold, the camels were coming .

Joshua 1:8 KJV
This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous , and then thou shalt have good success .

Psalms 1:2 KJV
But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.

Psalms 63:6 KJV
When I remember thee upon my bed, and meditate on thee in the night watches.

Psalms 77:12 KJV
I will meditate also of all thy work, and talk of thy doings.

Psalms 119:15 KJV
I will meditate in thy precepts, and have respect unto thy ways.

Psalms 119:23 KJV
Princes also did sit and speak against me: but thy servant did meditate in thy statutes.

Psalms 119:48 KJV
My hands also will I lift up unto thy commandments, which I have loved ; and I will meditate in thy statutes.

Psalms 119:78 KJV
Let the proud be ashamed ; for they dealt perversely with me without a cause: but I will meditate in thy precepts.

Psalms 119:148 KJV
Mine eyes prevent the night watches, that I might meditate in thy word.

hi,we know them by their fruit...by how they love one another...etc.jimp

quote]hi,we know them by their fruit...by how they love one another...etc.jimp

Okay lets look at fruit...........

He rarely communicated with his wife about big decisions.

He had a very poor relationship with his children.

He could not stand meeting his congregation in Chicago after a service.

He wrote about the benefits of hospitality but didn’t like visitors to the house.

He actually went out of his way to cut off relations with his in laws.

His wife famously said after his death "I have never been happier in my life," Mrs Tozer then married Leonard Odam and said, "Aiden loved Jesus Christ, but Leonard Odam loves me.

Now, certainly all human beings have flaws; that is not the point here. Rather, the point is fruit and how Tozer reconciled his pursuit of God with his failure to pursue his wife.

This failure to reconcile should have raised questions about Tozer's mystic approach and prophetic denunciation of the church and should have change the value of his teaching on the Christian life.

After all, if his piety could spend several hours in prayer and also rationalize his failure at home, then it should raise questions about his approach to piety.

The whole purpose of being filled with the Spirit and loving God was not for "personal gain" but for living in community with others. So that we do not act like a jerk to our wives, children, friends, neighbors etc, and to display the love of Christ to all by our actions and lives.

So my point is that the measure of a Spiritually Mature and Spirit filled Christian is not how much time alone or how much work he does but How much Love and Unity is displayed within relationships with one another.

"By this will all men know you are my disciples"

So what good did it do Tozer if he spend HOURS on his face before God when his relationship with his wife was suffering?

It is about Self. Seek the experience, fill me Lord so I can have the experience for my benefit.

We need to always apply the tests of Scripture on the teachers of Scripture.

For me it has been very informative looking into the life of this man some might think it as a "sad spectacle"

But Tozer himself says:

This new doctrine, this new religious habit, this new view of truth, this new spiritual experience how has it affected my attitude toward and my relation to God, Christ, the Holy Scriptures, self, other Christians, the world and sin. By this sevenfold test we may prove everything religious and know beyond a doubt whether it is of God or not. By the fruit of the tree we know the kind of tree it is. So we have but to ask about any doctrine or experience, What is this doing to me? and we know immediately whether it is from above or from below.

This was how this thread started explaing that the man was going to be cross-examined.

Introduction

I am sure I am not the only one here who has been much influenced by Aiden W. Tozer. His devotional writings have been praised by a wide spectrum of appreciative believers within Christendom, myself included. Recently however my praise for this writer has been replaced with a growing awareness of a tendency in his teaching, a major tendency, to turn his readers away from God-appointed means of sanctification.

The Word of God is not only our message of salvation; it is also our method of salvation. Lastly, it is our Man of salvation - He is the Word of God, the God-Man Christ Jesus. In all of these - and in a few other areas, as well - Tozer comes up short, as we shall see.

A.W. Tozer is a revered authority for many, and to attack him almost seems to be an attack on sanctification and holiness itself. But, with him as well as ourselves, we need to always apply the tests of Scripture on the teachers of Scripture. None of us are immune from this necessary cross-examination.

That is what these articles are about. If you find that my lines here spark in you a desire to write back to me, well, great! But if you are all set to defend your man, don't shoot from the hip.

I came home from work today to see how far this thread has deteriorated. What a shame, really.

This dirty clothesline is closed.