Christian music

My son is 12 and is starting to listen to music. I would like him to listen to music which glorifies God, but I honestly don't know when it is not God honoring music or it's just me not liking the style. The Christian rock sounds exactly like regular rock, as I can't hear the words either way.

My question is: what is the definition of Christian music? Preferences differ greatly on this subject and I would like some feedback from brothers and sisters in Christ, wherever your preferences may be.

you're right a lot of people had strong opinions on this subject. Personally my thoughts on the subject have changed since I was a youth minister.

There's music by Christians and then there is Christian music, at least that how I see it.

I guess when it comes down to it you've got to decide what you want your child listening to. He/she will still make their own choices but ultimately you are the parent and you have a HUGE say.

You may not be able to understand the words but the lyrics are available online and usually in the cd booklet. Pray for discernment.

One word of caution. So many times students will idolize the "christian" artist just as much as the secular artist. Make sure you are teaching your children correctly on this issue. Your true "Christian" artist will never intentionally let the focus be on them.
Hope this helps, but it probably leads to more questions than it answers.

Swimmer, God grant you much discernment in this. What you allow your child to listen to should not go according to others convincing you that it is "fine", and that God doesn't care. He so does.

I can only say that I believe you answered the question when you said you heard it and it didn't sit well. That is the voice of the Holy Spirit. It has nothing to do with musical taste, although others will try to say otherwise.

As a godly parent, I so pray that you will not listen to the majority, but will truly seek the Lord on this.

The fall of the modern church today started with the introduction of ungodly music. Please please stand firm with your child on this.

Whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest...Philipians 4:8 Please read this scripture through, it is our plumbline.

Peace

Swimmer,

To what music is your son currently listening and where does he obtain it?

What music do you enjoy?

Matthew

Does your area have a contemporary Christian station? Ours have two 88.3 and 89.1 (Love 89). Spend a few days listening to those to see what kind of music he likes and you too.

Also, you can go to Pandora.com and register and create your own little radio stations and by that I believe they mean type in a band, "David Crowder Band," (or whoever you like) and they will find all the other type of music that is like David Crowder Band. You can experiment that way too.

Go on youtube also and type on some of the people you hear on the radio and see what they have too.

You will be doing a lot of investigating!!

There is a lot of good Christian music out there that is not Southern Gospel; I listen more to worship that any other but here are some names you might or might not know....

Brian and Jenn Johnson
Brandon Heath
Carman
Jesus Culture
Jars of Clay
John Waller
Jonathan David Helser
Kutless (more for younger crowd but good lyrics)
Matthew West
Shawn MacDonald
Nicole C. Mullen
Todd Agnew
Third Day
Steven Curtis Chapman (just to name a mere few)

Swimmer, please find the lyrics to any of the singers you think you may not like and read them carefully.

God bless you in your search,

Swimmer,

The following article addresses your question, "My question is: what is the definition of Christian music?", in a biblically apologetic manner as all such questions ought to be answered. Our preferences are merely preferences,subjective in nature to our feelings.

We need God's Mind on it from God's Own Word as His Own Spirit teaches His Own children.

2 Cor. 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

The above exhortation MUST be done regarding this medium(MUSIC)if we are to tear down the reasonings of multitudes of souls who are making idol-worshippers of others by exalting this thing to a place which is higher than the knowledge of God.

Here is the article:

"What should we think of contemporary Christian music (CCM)?

In this discussion, CCM includes Christian rock music, Christian rap music, and Christian “pop” music.

The CCM issue is clearly one of criteria—

What criteria should we use to assess music?

What rule or standard or yardstick should we use to measure or evaluate CCM?

Two well-known contemporary Christian musicians have offered their opinion on this “criteria” issue:

David Meece: “Basically you have to focus on the lyrics, and what the song is saying. That is my criteria to decide whether the song is right or wrong. It has nothing to do with the music style. It has to do with the lyrics. What is the song saying? What are the words saying? As Christians, we can objectively judge it from that standpoint.”

Sandi Patti: “Music is a very powerful force. It has a way of breaking down barriers....But a lot of artists are taking that very powerful tool and putting negative, horrible lyrics to it, and those lyrics are getting into the hearts of the listeners and are shaping their values....Why can’t we [i.e., contemporary Christian musicians] take that same powerful force — music — put positive lyrics to it and begin shaping values that way?”

If Meece and Patti are right, then CCM is more than just okay—it is a powerful spiritual weapon that we must use.

I believe, however, that both Meece and Patti are wrong. First, they ignore the fact that God’s Word offers criteria for evaluating music that is different from theirs. Second, they both assume (and this is an important word) that we must evaluate music solely on the basis of its lyrics. They assume that the music itself apart from the lyrics is morally neutral, or that the music itself apart from the lyrics communicates no message. These are false assumptions. Tunes or melodies communicate messages regardless of lyrics (or, to put it another way, there is always a message implicit in the music). Bad music that contains “good” lyrics still transmits a bad message. What Meece and Patti (and most other defenders of CCM) do is “rig the game”: they begin by setting the rules for assessing CCM, but their rules guarantee that CCM will come out in a favorable light.

Before I continue, I must clarify something. I’m sure that most CCM performers are well-intentioned and sincerely think that they are doing what is right. Of course, good intentions and sincerity are no guarantees that one is right. And it would be a foolish thing indeed if we blindly assume that CCM performers are mature spiritually, or if we assume that CCM is okay simply because we like it.

I. Criteria For Evaluating Contemporary Christian Music

A. Recall Philippians 4:8: Finally, brethren, whatever things are true (or represent truth), whatever things are noble, whatever things are just (or right), whatever things are pure (or untainted by sin), whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report (or good reputation), if there is any virtue (or moral excellence) and if there is anything praiseworthy— meditate (or think) on these things.
This verse obviously applies to music because music is something that we meditate on or allow our minds to dwell upon. Philippians 4:8 clearly has much to say about a song’s lyrics. All people — even CCM performers like Meece and Patti — agree that a song’s words must be true, noble, morally excellent, and worthy of praise if that song is to be acceptable.

But notice what else Philippians 4:8 says. Good music must be of good report (the New American Standard Bible provides the literal translation “of good repute”). In other words, good music must be of a good reputation, or be wholly disassociated with things that are wrong or contrary to God. If something is okay in itself but it is strongly linked to or associated with something else that is evil, then that thing has a bad reputation. It has a bad report. This is a principle that we all accept. I’ll give you an example: Do you think it is okay for me to go into a store and buy a Coca-Cola? Yes. But do you think it is okay for me to go into a bar or a saloon and buy a Coca-Cola? Even though buying a Coca-Cola is obviously okay, when I buy one in a bar I associate that Coca-Cola (and myself) with things that are evil. It would not be right for me to go into a bar and buy a Coca-Cola because wicked things have given my innocent act a bad reputation or a bad report. Philippians 4:8, then, says that your music must be associated only with good or righteous things. Your music cannot resemble or be linked to things that are evil. If your music is identified with music that is evil or wrong, then your music is not of good report. Clearly CCM is linked to secular rock, rap, and pop music. Indeed, CCM performers consciously try to “cross over” and appeal to non-Christian audiences by making their music sound just like that of non- Christians. Don’t many CCM performers dress just like secular musicians? Don’t they sport hairstyles just like secular musicians (and in disobedience, I might add, to 1 Corinthians 11)? Don’t many male CCM performers go so far as to wear earrings, while some female CCM performers wear clothing that is by any definition immodest?

No one will deny that secular rock and rap music has a bad reputation. Is CCM linked to or associated with secular rock music? Is it sometimes hard to tell the difference between CCM and secular rock music? Do most people see a connection or a similarity between CCM and secular pop music? The answer to these questions, I think, is yes— which means that CCM is not of good repute and therefore does not pass the Philippians 4:8 test.

B. Notice something else about Philippians 4:8. Good music must be pure. This means that good music can not have bad stuff mixed in with it. Music that is 95% good and 5% bad is not pure. Good music, then, must be completely free from contamination or pollution. Does this seem unnecessarily strict? If so, it is only because you don’t realize how important your “thought life” is to God. Because your thoughts shape your character, God is very concerned with (and very strict about) what you set your mind upon. That is why your music must be pure. The Bible says that the world taints and makes impure (James 1:27; 2 Peter 2:20). In other words, when worldly things are mixed with or introduced into something, impurity results. Is CCM worldly? Does CCM liberally borrow from the world and adopt the world’s practices? The answer, I think, is obvious. This is serious. Romans 12:2 says “be not conformed to this world, but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind.” (Compare Ephesians 4:23 and 1 John 2:15-17.) This means that God commands us to not live like everyone else. Our lifestyle cannot match up to or be similar to that of other people. If a kind of music sounds like the world’s music, looks like the world’s music, and is marketed like the world’s music, then that music is worldly (what else could “worldly” mean?). Worldly music is impure music.

Is CCM worldly music?

—On Stryper, perhaps the most famous “Christian heavy metal band,” Rolling Stone magazine says, “The band looks and sounds like a bunch of standard-issue hard rockers: polished, guitar-dominated music, glittery yellow and black outfits, shaggy long hair and a flashy stage show.” Stryper no longer uses overtly Christian lyrics in their songs. The band said, “You won’t pick up this record and hear anything that says ‘God’ or ‘Christ.’ That was intentionally done.”

—Rolling Stone magazine said this about Amy Grant: “Regarding her album covers and publicity photos, which portray her as a sexy, attractive young woman, the Christian pop star says, ‘I’m trying to look sexy to sell a record....I feel like a Christian young woman in the Eighties is very sexual.” The video for Grant’s recent song “Baby, Baby” portrays the married singer flirting with a young male actor. Grant responds: “If somebody says, ‘You’re trying to go secular,” I say, ‘Of course I am: That’s the whole point.’”

—With regards to Sandi Patti, The Saturday Evening Post writes that “One of the reasons she attracts the adulation of young fans is her thoroughly modern look, sound and style.”

—Sheila Walsh’s new album, according to Newsweek, “artfully mixed the sacred and sexy.”

—Commenting on CCM, Time writes that CCM performers are “indistinguishable — except for their lyrics — from their secular counterparts.”

The above testimony reveals that even non-Christians recognize that CCM is worldly music. Worldly music is not pure music. Impure music fails the Philippians 4:8 test.
This issue of purity is actually a much larger issue that I will only briefly comment on here. Some people would argue that it doesn’t matter how you reach people with God’s truth just so long as you reach them. Any method of proclaiming God’s Word is valid, these people say, so long as it works. They are really saying that the end justifies the means— which is a sinister and dangerous principle. Indeed, the Catholic Church adopted this strategy around 300 A.D. with regard to pagan rites and celebrations. Rather than telling their converts that they had to give up their false religions, their idols, their holy days, and their superstitious beliefs, the Catholic Church “christianized” those pagan things and allowed them to remain.

This is why the Catholic Church began to worship saints, instituted hundreds of unscriptural (and sometimes demonic) holy days, and developed elaborate ceremonial rituals. Instead of remaining pure and separate from the world, the Catholic Church tried to “baptize” worldly things and then retain them. We see where this unscriptural strategy took the Catholic Church. CCM does much the same thing. Instead of rejecting worldly music, CCM tries to “christianize” it.
Robert Pattison, a non-Christian scholar and a defender of secular rock music, makes this illuminating comment concerning CCM’s attempt to use secular musical forms for Christian purposes:

“Some dreamers have hoped to harness rock to propagate the values of transcendent ideologies. Populist Catholics sponsor rock masses, trendy educators produce textbooks using rock lyrics as a vehicle for inculcating traditional values, various Protestant denominations commandeer the airwaves on Sunday mornings to broadcast uplifting advice larded with rock songs to make the message palatable to young ears...But rock is useless to teach any transcendent value. The instigators of these projects merely promote the pagan rites they hope to co-opt. Rock’s electricity as much as its pantheistic heritage gives the lie to whatever enlightened propaganda may be foisted on it.”
Did you see what Pattison said? CCM performers only “promote the pagan rites they hope to coopt.” Though not a Christian, Pattison is confirming that “christianizing” secular music is a strategy that is doomed to fail. Rock music is simply too strong. The musical medium has a distorting influence on the message.
John Fischer, a prominent CCM performer, says something similar. He admits that “Some art forms have been created to express certain philosophies and are so wedded to those philosophies that they convey that kind of outlook....We can’t assume that we simply plug in a Christian message, and everything will be okay.”

Rock and rap music are so wedded to secular, godless themes that they communicate that outlook regardless of the song’s words.

C. Philippians 4:8 says that music must be morally excellent, noble or something that you could be proud of, and so beneficial that it is worthy of praise. Meece and Patti, you will recall, assume that this only applies to the lyrics of a song. They imply that a song’s music (i.e., the sound only) does not communicate a message. Is this true? No. A song’s music — regardless of the lyrics — does communicate a message. Many doctors, researchers, and musicians — many of them not Christians — agreed that a song’s music does communicate a message regardless of the words. Dr. Max Schoen, for example, writes in The Psychology of Music that “Music is the most powerful stimulus known among the perceptive senses. The medical, psychiatric and other evidence for the non- neutrality of music is so overwhelming that it frankly amazes me that anyone should seriously say otherwise.” (And yet people like Meece and Patti say otherwise!) Dr. William J. Shafer, a non-Christian sociologist, writes similarly that “Rock is communication without words, regardless of what ideology is inserted into the music.” Professor Frank Garlock says that “The words only let you know what the music already says....The music has its own message.” The primary message of CCM lies in its music, not in its lyrics.

If all music (regardless of the lyrics) has a message, then what is the message communicated by the music of CCM? CCM uses the same style of music as does secular, non-Christian rock music; therefore, CCM’s music communicates the same message as secular rock and rap music! Nearly all of the effects produced by contemporary music’s beat, repetition, and loudness are negative. Rock music is mildly hypnotic and can become addictive. Rock music produces chemical reactions in your body that encourage aggressive and emotional behavior. Those same physiological reactions prevent you from thinking and judging rationally. By the same token, contemporary music’s beat, repetition, and loudness unmistakably convey a mood of defiance, rebelliousness, aggressiveness, and self-assertiveness.

Clearly these effects are neither “morally excellent” nor “noble” nor “praiseworthy.” Bad music, regardless of comparatively “good” lyrics, communicates a bad message.
How is it that music can affect me? The music itself, regardless of the words, affects your emotions. Even if there are no words to a song or a tune, it affects you. Everybody knows this. Lullabies put babies to sleep regardless of the words. National anthems can at times create feelings of pride or move listeners to tears. Some of the most powerful music ever written — like Beethoven and Wagner — contained no words. Ask any young person why they like rock music and they always say something about the beat or tempo. They are admitting that, regardless of the words, the music itself is quite powerful.

This is important. It means that “good” words does not make something good music. Regardless of the "good" lyrics, the musical score itself has an impact on the listener. Assessing music as good or bad or acceptable or unacceptable, is not simply a matter of evaluating the words. You must evaluate the tune also, because the sounds themselves affect you.

D. Philippians 4:8 says that your music must not only be “not bad,” but that it must be positively good. In other words, it is not enough for the music to be free of evil— the music must strongly communicate a positive message. Is it true that CCM’s lyrics are positively good? Most CCM, it is true, does not contain profanity, does not talk about sex, and does not glorify violence. But do these songs express deep, meaningful spiritual truths (such as you read in old Isaac Watts hymns)? Does CCM teach good, solid theology? Doesn’t CCM usually express a light, flippant, and shallow view of Christianity? I, for one, have rarely heard a CCM song that expresses profound or meaningful spiritual truth.

Christianity Today commented in 1987 that CCM sales were slumping because of CCM performers’ “lack of spiritual commitment and meaningful lyrics.” John Styll, editor of Contemporary Christian Music magazine, complained that “Some ‘Christian’ songs today are so veiled in terms of spiritual content that their meaning is lost to all but the most imaginative.” In other words, Styll was saying that CCM doesn’t even communicate a good message in its lyrics. “Many singers,” writes Christianity Today, “have softened their Christian message in an effort to ‘cross over’ into the secular marketplace. But many now say this practice has damaged their credibility with Christian audiences while blunting their impact on secular customers.”"

While it is true that CCM’s lyrics are not filthy, vulgar, or wicked, neither are they positively good. Most CCM lyrics — especially the recent “Christian rap” of performers like DC Talk and Mike-E — contains a weak message or no message at all. At best, these songs encourage a superficial and flippant understanding of spiritual things. At worst, listeners simply ignore the empty lyrics and allow the sensual, rebellious music to influence them.

E. “Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. For our God is a consuming fire.” (Hebrews 12:28-29) Many, many times we are exhorted by Scripture to fear God and to have reverence for Him. How does this relate to music? If I really fear God, if I really am overwhelmed by His holiness and dignity, if I have great respect for God’s dignity, if I am truly zealous for His Name and His glory, then I will make sure that my music is appropriate for glorifying God. Not only must the words be appropriate for the glorifying of God, but the sound or melody must befit the majesty, the purity, and the holiness of God. I will ask questions like these: Is this music — both words and melody — suitable for glorifying God?

Does this music — both words and melody — cheapen divine things or trivialize spiritual truth? Does this music encourage a non-serious or frivolous view of religion? Might it lead a listener to think that God is Someone that you can play games with or treat lightly?
Does this music — both words and melody — handle sacred truth in a sacred way? Is the music compatible with or complementary of the sacred things of which it claims to speak?

If this music bears Christ’s name (as CCM does), then does it — both words and melody — also bear the marks of Christ’s character? Does this music reflect His holiness, His righteousness, His purity, and His majesty? CCM fails here. It is not a suitable medium for glorifying God. CCM cheapens spiritual truth and encourages irreverent attitudes toward God. Even in songs where the words are okay or even good, CCM employs a type of music or sound that is not appropriate for worshipping God. The sound of CCM is, at very least, casual and worldly.

I realize that this concern may make little sense to some of my readers. We Americans have, unfortunately, grown up in a generation that doesn’t understand what it means to fear God. We have no sense of God’s holiness. We play with sacred things flippantly. We rarely tremble at the fact that our God is a consuming fire. Incredibly, we think that if something is good enough for us, then it must be good enough for God. But Hebrews 12:28-29 merely alludes to something that is suggested over and over in the Bible: God is so holy that many things, actions, or attitudes are simply not appropriate before Him. If you have low views of God’s holiness, then you won’t appreciate my concerns here. But the more you appreciate God’s sacredness, the more you will be concerned about the appropriateness of your music.
A former CCM performer, writing in the mid-1980s, put this well. He said that "For three years I sat under the sound of biblical teaching and those years revolutionized my life. Very soon I learned what the gospel was, and as soon as I did so doubts arose in my mind as to the suitability of rock as a medium for the gospel....When I saw the seriousness of the gospel I saw the paradox of using a non-serious medium to try to convey it." The musician realized that his “Christian music,” despite his good intentions, actually communicated a non-serious attitude.

by Rob S.

...continued

II. Other Questions To Ask About Contemporary Christian Music

A. When you listen to CCM, what effect does it have on you? What happens when you listen to it? Do you find yourself worshipping God in spirit and in truth? Do you begin thinking about Bible verses or Scriptural truths? Do you think about God? Are you convicted of sins and failings in your life?

Or do you get pumped up? Do you get psyched? Do you simply start “feeling good”? Do you start playing “air guitar” or “air drums”? Do you feel like getting rowdy?
If you listen to CCM because it produces the second effect, then that should tell you that your music is dangerous. Your music is not glorifying God.

A seventeen-year-old girl from Texas testifies that CCM — despite its “good” words — communicates a bad message through its beat and melody. CCM encouraged her not to worship, but rather to be sexually immoral. She writes: “I would like to share a testimony concerning my experience with ‘Christian rock’ music. I had listened to this music with my friends and at church social functions for several years before I got my own tape, recorded by a famous artist. Buying that tape was the biggest mistake of my life. Under its influence, my moral convictions began to dissolve and I allowed myself to become involved in a relationship with a boy from my church, against my parents wishes. When we were together we listened to ‘Christian’ and ‘soft rock’ music. It was all sensuous and destroyed my inhibitions. I am so ashamed of what happened. The music made me rebellious and pulled me away from my family. I thank God that I can say today that I have not listened to this harmful music for several months now, and I feel a freedom I had not experienced before.”

A fifteen-year-old student from Ohio agrees. He writes that “When I got into secular rock music I was bombarded by many sensual thoughts. Those that think that ‘Christian rock’ is OK because of the words, are wrong. When I listen to that type of ‘Christian’ music, I have the same reaction.” A twenty-one-year old student from Washington writes that rock music “has had a definite bad impression on me. It makes me feel rebellious, and I just have weird feelings when I play it. To me, ‘Christian rock’ is no different than regular rock. It still gives me those wrong feelings.” A sixteen-year-old student from Missouri writes that “I have many contemporary Christian music tapes, and I find when I listen to them that I get a rebellious spirit.”

B. Who is it that is always defending CCM? Who is most vocal in arguing that CCM is actually good? Aren’t CCM’s primary defenders a) the unsaved; b) teenagers who, if they are Christians, must certainly be babes in Christ; or c) people who have only a questionable claim to being Christian? I’m struck by how no spiritually mature men that I know rally to the defense of contemporary Christian music. In other words, it is the spiritually weak that argue that CCM is good.

I’ll briefly mention a related issue. CCM makes songwriters and performers our spiritual leaders. By listening to their songs, we are shaped by their music. Are CCM composers and performers qualified to be our spiritual leaders? Does the fact that someone can put words to rhyme or possesses a good voice necessarily mean that they are qualified to teach us spiritually? Certainly this is a frightening phenomenon. At the same time when young people increasingly ignore preaching and pastoral counseling — indeed, young people often find pulpit teaching boring — they flock to CCM as their source of spiritual nourishment. Little surprise that our children are not saved, and know so little about the great doctrines of our faith?

C. Many young people testify that listening to CCM harmed them. Listening to CCM led many to listen to secular rock and rap music. In other words, CCM is a dangerous “slippery slope.” A few testimonies:

A sixteen-year-old student from Oklahoma: “I began to listen to ‘Christian rock’ without the blessing of my father. He told me that if I listened to ‘Christian rock’ it would open the door for Satan. I just laughed, and listened anyway. It totally deadened my Christian growth and led to terrible immorality, rebellion, and rejection of God. It then developed into secular, hard rock. Now all I can do is go back and pick up the pieces. But I still have a scar in my life that will never be removed.”

A twenty-one-year-old student from Michigan: “‘Christian rock’ has hindered my life because the only real difference between ‘Christian rock’ and secular rock is the words. The beat, rhythm, and the melody are not different; they are the same. It does not matter whether I listen to secular or ‘Christian rock,’ when the songs are over, I feel the same. I feel an emptiness in my soul, a heavy burden. Even ‘Christian rock’ sometimes makes me feel like going out and getting rowdy or even hurting someone else if they provoke me.”

An eighteen-year-old student from Oklahoma: “When I was twelve or thirteen years old, I was given some ‘Christian rock’ tapes by my parents because they thought I was getting into secular music. The truth is, I was getting into some bad music. The ‘Christian rock’ dominated my life for over a year until I could not get the same satisfaction I received the first time I heard it. I went to secular rock music and kept this desire and sin from my parents. I started out on soft music and grew to pop/rock-type music. It was not long before my desire grew to ‘hard rock’ and ‘progressive’ stuff. I started getting into drinking and going to dance clubs. Minor recreational drugs came in and soon my life was going down the drain. One night while drinking, I fell into immorality and my life was devastated....I feel very deeply that if I had not started out in ‘Christian rock’ I would have been convicted about the bad music I got into. Maybe I would not have messed up my life so much.”

A twenty-year-old student from Oklahoma: “When I used to listen to rock music it hindered my spirit and caused a rebellious attitude. I can tell you that when I hear ‘Christian rock’ music, it makes no difference what the lyrics are. It is the music that causes the poor spirit and rebellious attitude.”

A sixteen-year-old student from Florida: “‘Christian rock’ music has probably been the biggest hindrance to my spiritual growth. When I first heard this kind of music, it really bothered my spirit. But then this music was brought into my church. The more I heard it, the less it bothered me. The less it bothered me, the more I listened to it. It wasn’t long before I was involved in secular rock music because I didn’t see any difference. This music caused me to resist the Lord and hold parts of my life back from Him. I was not able to have a freedom to truly serve Him and be totally dedicated to Him until I was willing to give up this music.”

A nineteen-year-old student from California: “I began listening to ‘Christian rock,’ and shortly thereafter I began a fast, steady pace downhill. This eventually led me into a totally backslidden state. I know that my own rebelliousness was the cause of my fall. However, ‘Christian rock’ entered into my life at a very crucial point and added fuel to the fire. I remember the specific day and the song I listened to first. I remember feeling rebellious— like I was going against what is considered acceptable by the standards of Godly people. Within weeks, maybe months, a very apparent breakdown of my conscience, morality, and appearance was evident.”

A seventeen-year-old student from Pennsylvania: “‘Christian rock’ and Christian contemporary music have, in my life, been stepping stones. Not stepping stones going up— but down. Just a few months of listening to ‘Christian rock’ and contemporary music led to a life of being controlled by acid rock. This quickly led to and encouraged rebellion, greed, moral impurity, and trying to protect my rights and hide from my parents.”

A fifteen-year-old student from Nebraska: “When I started listening to ‘Christian rock’ I slowly started to listen to just regular worldly rock (soft rock). Then I was listening to something harder and harder. It not only led me into worldly rock, but I was getting rebellious toward my parents, and I was having sensual and lustful thoughts. I also could not memorize or read God’s Word and understand it or retain it.”

III. How Can You Tell If A Piece of Music Is Acceptable or Not? Where do you “draw the line”?

Based upon the discussion above, and relying heavily on Philippians 4:8, I come up with the following “yardstick”:

1. Good music must have good lyrics. Lyrics must not only be not bad; they must be positively good (i.e., pass the Philippians 4:8 test).

2. Good music must have a good sound. The sound or tune itself can not be conducive of irrational thinking, aggression, or impulsiveness. Nor can the sound communicate a rebellious or defiant mood.

3. Good music cannot be associated with or linked to negative or questionable things. Good music must be pure. Good music cannot be worldly.

4. a) If music claims to be Christian, then (in addition to the above points) it must be music that befits God’s majesty. Christian music must be sober and reverential. Christian music must exemplify or display Christ’s character. b) If music does not claim to communicate a spiritual music (e.g., orchestral music), then (in addition to the above points) that music must be refined, balanced, sublime or subtle, and tranquil.

My conclusion is that much, if not all, of what is today called contemporary Christian music fails to measure up to this yardstick.

I can give you a quick testimony. I am sure I have shared it before. As I was going through High School I often had to stand alone. Music was one of my anchors. God used music in such a powerful way to help me stand strong in my relationship with Him and to stay the course while I stood alone. I remember groups like Petra, Degarmo and Key, Whiteheart, Steve Camp, and etc., and often the lyric in these songs helped give me such strength. I realize that their are many "Christian" artists out there who are in it for fame and money and whose music is not that outstanding. But there are those who your son can listen to who will play styles he likes and glorify God and encourage him to do the same. The idea that the particular style of music (hip-hop, country, rock, southern gospel, you name it) is to me a rather silly argument. I am enough of a student of history to see it repeating itself over and over where style is concerned. The early methodists who sang Watts hymns were often blasted for using a "modern style of music that was not Godly" as many of Watts' songs were tunes from popular barroom songs that were given lyric that honored God. The same is said of new styles today. I guess if we really wanted to use the correct style it would have to be Jewish styles that Jesus and His disciples sang as they worshipped God. (I am being a little bit sarcastic in saying that I guess, just to place the argument in some sort of context.) I am just saying that I would strongly encourage giving your son music that he thoroughly enjoys that glorifies God.

Savannah,
I appreciate your lengthy article concerning CCM.

ginnyrose

Twayneb said, "The early methodists who sang Watts hymns were often blasted for using a "modern style of music that was not Godly" as many of Watts' songs were tunes from popular barroom songs that were given lyric that honored God."

I've heard that before, and I challenge it. Maybe the odd one was put to a familiar tune, but by and large the lyrics were put to music composed by godly men.

...As to the question of what music is of God and what is not of God, there is one simple governing criterion. And it's the one rule that the Devil goes to great lengths to keep us from paying attention to.

It's the rule of the anointing. (And it's to be our guide not only for music but for all aspects of ministry.)

"These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. But the anointing which ye have received of Him abidteh in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in Him" (1 Jn. 2.26,27).

So, how is our discernment? Is the anointing there? If so, the song-- or the message, or whatever-- is of God. If not, I don't care if the words are correct or Biblical not. It's not of God. It isn't flowing out from God.

It's a simple rule, as I said... but it takes time and a serious love for the Truth to learn it, to learn the Anointing.

This is from the Bible Broadcasting Network radio stations. www.bbnradio.org

Question : The idols are different but the results are the same.

Answer :

Perspective

"The idols are different but the results are the same."

The "worship wars" are beating the drums throughout the church today. This isn't new. Repeatedly in the Old Testament God judged His people for false worship. Exodus 32 says they were punished for both worshipping a false god and worshipping God falsely. In John 4, Jesus shared with the woman at the well the true principles of worship. It was not the physical location, but rather the spiritual condition of the person.

In all the "worship wars," music is the battleground. Many church services begin with a long period of "praise and worship," as if this is worship, and the rest of the service is something else. This is not new. In Exodus 32:4-6, Israel had come to the place where God was going to personally give them His Word. They missed it. Their self-appointed "worship leader" made a golden calf, called it god, rocked out the music, added dancing and eventually immorality, and called it worship. This led the people into God's judgment. It was an abomination to God. Does this have any of the contemporary flavor? Can it be found in this "worship war" of music and dance today? Aaron (the first worship leader) led the people in dance and music to worship in Egypt's style and turned their hearts from the eternal God to Egypt's golden idol. The idols are different, but the results are the same. The absence of the leader opened the door to perverted worship. Perhaps this should be a warning to the leadership in the church today. Maybe there is cause for alarm.

Ron Owens in his book, Return To Worship, talks of "the rise of the chorus and the death of the hymn." We are stealing from this generation our greatest heritage and our greatest teaching tool. Martin Luther used the power of hymns as he sent out singing groups to teach the people doctrine (Colossians 3:16) which played a great part in the Reformation. We still sing his great hymns 500 years later.

Isaac Watts wrote 875 hymns 250 years ago. Many, like "When I Survey The Wondrous Cross,"are in our hymnals. Charles Wesley gave us hundreds of hymns, like "O For A Thousand Tongues To Sing." John Newton, the converted slave trader, gave us "Amazing Grace." The longevity of these hymns in the Church has been the bedrock of much of the indelible learning of doctrine. Yes, there have been many hymns written in the past hundred years that are wonderful as well. The great concern is that a pastor or worship leader may close the hymn book and steal our greatest tool for teaching the Truth to the next generation. Can we sing some choruses? Of course, we can. But it is like serving the appetizer and forgetting the main course if we neglect the hymns. In time, we will find a famine in the land for the Word of God.

This is one reason BBN shares the great hymns daily. It will nourish you because it is God's will as seen in Ephesians 5:17-20. It is the will of the Lord to sing hymns.

- Lowell Davey, President of BBN

APPLICATION VS EXPERIENCE

An evil resides in the professed camp of the Lord so gross in its imprudence that the most shortsighted can hardly fail to notice it. During the past few years it has developed at an abnormal rate evil for evil. It has worked like leaven until the whole lump ferments. The devil has seldom done a more clever thing than hinting to the Church that part of their mission is to provide entertainment for the people, with a view to winning them. From speaking out as the Puritans did, the Church has gradually toned down her testimony, then winked at and excused the frivolities of the day. Then she tolerated them in her borders. Now she has adopted them under the plea of reaching the masses.

My first contention is that providing amusement for the people is nowhere spoken of in the Scriptures as a function of the Church. If it is a Christian work why did not Christ speak of it? "Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature." That is clear enough. So it would have been if He has added, "and provide amusement for those who do not relish the gospel" No such words, however, are to be found. It did not seem to occur to Him. Then again, "He gave some apostles, some prophets, some pastors and teachers, for the work of the ministry." Where do entertainers come in? The Holy Spirit is silent concerning them. Were the prophets persecuted because they amused the people or because they refused? The concert has no martyr roll.

Again, providing amusement is in direct antagonism to the teaching and life of Christ and all His apostles. What was the attitude of the Church to the world? "Ye are the salt," not sugar candy—something the world will spite out, not swallow. Short and sharp was the utterance, "Let the dead bury their dead." He was in awful earnestness!

Had Christ introduced more of the bright and pleasant elements into His mission, He would have been more popular when they went back, because of the searching nature of His teaching. I do not hear Him say, "Run after these people, Peter, and tell them we will have a different style of service tomorrow, something short and attractive with little preaching. We will have a pleasant evening for the people. Tell them they will be sure to enjoy it. Be quick, Peter, we must get the people somehow!" Jesus pitied sinners, sighed and wept over them, but never sought to amuse them. In vain will the Epistles be searched to find any trace of the gospel amusement. Their message is, "Come out, keep out, keep clean out!" Anything approaching fooling is conspicuous by its absence. They had boundless confidence in the gospel and employed no other weapon.

After Peter and John were locked up for preaching, the Church had a prayer meeting, but they did not pray, "Lord grant Thy servants that by a wise and discriminating use of innocent recreation we may show these people how happy we are." If they ceased not for preaching Christ, they had not time for arranging entertainments. Scattered by persecution, they went everywhere preaching the gospel.

They "turned the world upside down." That is the difference! Lord, clear the Church of all the rot and rubbish the devil has imposed on her and bring us back to apostolic methods.

Lastly, the mission of amusement fails to affect the end desired. It works havoc among young converts. Let the careless and scoffers, who thank God because the Church met them halfway, speak and testify. Let the heavy-laden who found peace through the concert not keep silent! Let the drunkard to whom the dramatic entertainment has been God's link in the chain of their conversion, stand up! There are none to answer. The mission of amusement produces no converts. The need of the hour for today's ministry is believing scholarship joined with earnest spirituality, the one springing from the other as fruit from the root. The need is biblical doctrine, so understood and felt, that it sets men on fire. (taken from Entertainment in the Church by C.H. Spurgeon)

Contending for the faith against those who should be.

BLESS GOD!

In preparation to teaching 1 Timothy 4 this coming Lord's Day,I did a search on the web about fables. Exactly what are they? One source suggested that one should not use any other means then absolute truth to present the gospel. It should not be adorned with fiction, myths which raises some disturbing questions - what about "The Shack"? "Chronicles of Narnia"?

Anyway, the reason I brought this up is what you said:

" The devil has seldom done a more clever thing than hinting to the Church that part of their mission is to provide entertainment for the people, with a view to winning them. From speaking out as the Puritans did, the Church has gradually toned down her testimony, then winked at and excused the frivolities of the day. Then she tolerated them in her borders. Now she has adopted them under the plea of reaching the masses."

AND:

"Jesus pitied sinners, sighed and wept over them, but never sought to amuse them. In vain will the Epistles be searched to find any trace of the gospel amusement. Their message is, "Come out, keep out, keep clean out!" Anything approaching fooling is conspicuous by its absence. They had boundless confidence in the gospel and employed no other weapon."

The issue is as I see it: what tools are we using to present the gospel? Is it one that entertains?

Years ago at the Crises Pregnancy Center I asked my [single] clients why they go to church? They obviously were not godly girls because they were living in sin but considered themselves Christians. The response was always the same. They thought a while and then came up with this reason "it is because of the music." For some this reason would be a good enough reason to continue in this entertainment mode. But does it produce godliness? At CPC we never saw nor heard any evidence of it. (Actually, if you want to know what is really going on in the churches just work at a CPC for a while...you will discover things that will grieve you to no end.)

Some abstinence ministries made videos to appeal to youth, teaching the benefits of chastity. We previewed them. Once again they used worldly music to promote their idea. One volunteer responded that she would never want her children to see that video! The music, dance was so frightful...

People no longer depend on the power of the Spirit in winning souls so they must use other worldly means to attract folks to the gospel. In the meantime, they are diluting it. Jesus and the apostles kept it simple and the Holy Spirit did wonders.

Lesson here somewhere for us moderns.

Just food for thought, but Keith Green sang a song called, "The Prodigal Son." For those of you who have heard it, do you think the song was of God? Is it anointed?

What would you do if I told you he wrote that song while he was still unsaved and lost? The first time he played it was in a bar. What would you say if I told you I think it was one of the most anointed songs he ever wrote?

I think when it comes to Christian music, the only thing that needs to be ask is: is the believer edified by what they are hearing and singing? Does it in anyway build them up and draw them closer to God? If so, then in my opinion, that is all that matters.

If we can sanctify meat and drink by means of the word of God and prayer as Paul says, then surely we can take a song and sanctify it as well, even if the motives of the musician are impure. Surely we can redeem it for ourselves. Just as we can redeem meat and drink offered to idols, and sanctify it.

While I prefer to listen to musicians who seem obviously in touch with the Lord, and are Keith Green like in their motives, that doesn't mean I don't listen to songs written by people who appear to be driven by other motives.

People like to act like Southern Gospel is especially sanctified music. But I can tell you from having seen him and listened to hundreds of songs, Bill Gaither, and many that run in those circles are just as carnal as the latest up and coming talent in CCM.

In the end, all that matters is that if the music has an edifying value to it, that you sanctify it and make it your own. Remember songs like "The Anchor Holds" by Ray Boltz? The same Ray Boltz who came out of the closet recently, and admitted he's been struggling with homosexuality forever? How many of us have not been blessed by that song, nevermind the carnality Boltz was caught up in.

Consider the following lyrics from Shai Linne's song Atonement Q&A featuring Stephen the Levite:

Verse 1

Who is God? God is the universe’s Creator

And Sustainer plus the only Savior, there is no one greater

He triune, holy, omnipotent, omniscient, absolute

Loving, sovereign and righteous are a few of His attributes

How do we know this? Well, we know this from the Bible

Where God has revealed Himself- anything else is just an idol

What’s the Bible about? Man’s complete ruin in sin

And what God has done in Christ to bring us to Him again

What is sin? Sin is the breaking of God’s law

Plus our condition, which means from birth we all got flaws

What’s the result? The result is by nature we’re God’s enemies

And must pay the penalty unless God provides the remedy

What the remedy? The remedy is the cross of Christ

Where He suffered all the strikes for the lawless type

I’ve been rescued by the Lamb, I’m convinced that He’s risen

And blessed is the man whose sins are forgiven!

Chorus

Just fall back, and with the eyes of faith

Behold the beauty of surprising grace

Because the Lamb has died, third day He had to rise

He’s magnified- God’s wrath is satisfied

Just fall back- there’s an atonement now

The cross of Christ is holy ground

Because the Lamb has died, third day He had to rise

He’s magnified- God’s wrath is satisfied

Verse 2

Regeneration- the Holy Spirit’s true work in His love

To the elect, who receive new birth from above

Expiation- expiation means God’s removed my filthiness

The old testament type was the goat into the wilderness

Redemption- we’ve been freed from slavery to sin

And His very own blood is the price He paid, my friend

Propitiation- Propitiation means since the Lamb has died

His work is finished- God’s wrath is satisfied

Adoption- adoption means God is now my Father

I got the hottest Poppa and by the Spirit holler Abba

Reconciliation means there’s no more enmity

God is now a friend to me, we’re no longer enemies

Justification- God declares us righteous

Sanctification- we’re being made into His likeness

Glorification- that’s what happens at the finish

When God conforms believers perfectly to Christ’s image!

Chorus

Verse 3

God’s grace is magnificent, He slayed His innocent

Son- through faith and repentance we get the benefits

What is faith? Faith is a gift from God- when we receive this

We trust and treasure the person and finished work of Jesus

Repentance? Repentance is turning from your sin

And trusting Christ as the Spirit cleanses you within

What is grace? Oh, grace is unmerited favor

Our inheritance major ‘cause we cherish the Savior

Right, and if I may quote again, we were doomed with Satan

But believers get Jesus’ righteousness through imputation

Imputation? God takes Jesus’ righteousness amount

Through faith He credits it into the Christian’s account

Anything else? Well, I guess this overview must suffice

But none of this is possible apart from union with Christ

And finally, once you know the ways of the Lord than the

only thing that you can say is Soli Deo Gloria!

***If you didn't read each line, go back and read it again. And again. How many of our kids can even explain the theology behind their belief? Shai Linne is with Lampmode records, another independant organization that exists to exposit the gospel through hip hop.
Joe

Have any of you heard Paul Washer's message to Reformed rappers? Thoughts?

Swimmer - Are you still there?

Matthew

It is sad indeed, but it is true indeed, that men cannot bear having their idols targeted and their high places torn down, without resorting to accusations,insinuations and assumptions.

Rather than call upon their God(in prayer or in His Word) to defend that which is, according to them, of His Own making, the only defense they offer is mocking sarcasm and an appeal to those who are on their side.

I'm reminded of King Rehoboam in 1 Kings chapter 12.

1 Kings 12:6-10,13,14 And king Rehoboam consulted with the old men that stood before Solomon his father while he yet lived, and said, How do ye advise that I may answer this people? And they spoke to him, saying, If thou wilt be a servant to this people this day, and wilt serve them, and answer them, and speak good words to them, then they will be thy servants for ever. But he forsook the counsel of the old men, which they had given him, and consulted with the young men that had grown up with him, and who stood before him: And he said to them, What counsel give ye that we may answer this people, who have spoken to me, saying, Make the yoke which thy father did put upon us lighter? And the young men that had grown up with him spoke to him, saying, Thus shalt thou speak to this people who spoke to thee, saying, Thy father made our yoke heavy, but make thou it lighter to us; thus shalt thou say to them, My little finger shall be thicker than my father's loins. And the king answered the people roughly, and forsook the old men's counsel that they gave him; And spoke to them after the counsel of the young men...

Although the above historical account was of another nature and for a different purpose I trust the discerning reader will make the application.

Appeal after appeal is made to, "these lyrics", in this song, or claims to an individual made that, "they are the real deal." Their claims that, "they are the real deal" are based on the subjective criteria of, "I've actually met them."

Then others are spoken of in comparison to these who, "are the real deal" as merely "regular"..."Christian music artists".

This subjective reasoning is certainly not to be trusted. "This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish." (James 3:15)

"But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, easily entreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy."

Partiality rules among men of repute and so many have been infected with the disease of being respecters of men's persons.

"A judge should be perfectly neuter[ed] in feeling, that he may decide with impartiality."

One may make boast of theologically correct lyrics all the same. I join in praise to God for such lyrics. Yet the mandate of Scripture is to PREACH the Gospel. The method of God's choosing to save and win souls is the foolishness of PREACHING. Most(not all) of those who listen and like this music(theologically correct or not)will not and cannot tolerate the PREACHING and Teaching of the WORD.

That God uses some of this, by no means proves that His seal of approval is upon it. He uses it in spite of it. True PREACHERS are not pragmatists.

30 years ago this stuff was on the rise and gaining popularity. Today it is in full bloom and the flower that has bloomed can be likened to the venus fly trap.

Many voices from the past warned of this coming plague, but few heeded those voices. We are reaping what the many planted against the counsel of the wise. The older men have been silenced and the younger men are being consulted.

I am not a traditionalist by any means, but wisdom and truth can never grow old.

To those who will throw this which is written to the wayside as opinion and speculation,I have nought but this to say,"Take heed how ye hear". The fruit has long ripened and it is infested with mold and bacteria.

To those who can appreciate the posts I have made on this thread, I say, "Watch and pray". May we not be tempted to join this bandwagon nor enter into judgement with them.

God alone is the Judge of His people. His people who have part in this will receive what He sees fit. His people are not condemned like and with the world, but nevertheless the LORD judges His people. I trust none would deny this.

To those who'd argue that these musicians are preaching, I'd bid them to take such argument to the throne of the Holy One, Who appointed and annointed PREACHING and PREACHERS from the beginning, and Who also defines PREACHING and calls PREACHERS.

Knowing this though, that the flesh(carnal)will ALWAYS be perched on the altar of its idol ready to pounce upon the spirit(spiritual).

May God bless the readers hereof who have ears to hear.

It should be noted that singing is considered a form of preaching. God ordained the song of Moses in Deuteronomy as a means of serving as a witness to Israel. It wad a song to be taught to every generation. Additionaly, the prophets used song as a means of preaching. The book of Lamentations is one such example. If memory serves correct, Ezekiel also used it.

Savannah,
Could you provide what you think the proper format for preaching the gospel is?

"Most(not all) of those who listen and like this music(theologically correct or not)will not and cannot tolerate the PREACHING and Teaching of the WORD."

Could you provide some proof to substantiate this liberal accusation? Listeners aside, if you were to investigate the lives of some of the Christian rappers, you would find that they in no way presume that their music is stand alone sufficient for growth in the body of Christ or a replacment for preaching the gospel (again, if you could you provide me with what your idea of the right format for preaching the gospel is...).

In fact, Shai Linne is being discipled in the ways of an elder at Mark Dever's church in D.C. as we speak. Artist "Flame" is attending the undergraduate school of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary for a major in biblical counseling. "the Ambassador" was a teaching pastor at a church in Philly and a graduate from Dallas Theological Seminary, but has recently resigned from his record label and ministry due to moral failure in his marriage. Pragmatism is not a term I'd use with these guys, their first priority is to glorify God, not appeal to man.

Swimmer,
There is not one person on this thread that can tell you with biblical authority which styles of music (excluding lyrics)are right and wrong. Trust God and the Holy Spirit to guide you and your son in this decision. It is encouraging that you want the Lordship of Christ in all areas of life.

If I could offer a bit of advice, I was about your sons age when I first discovered listening of music for pleasure- keep him away from secular radio stations! They are too easily accessed on a radio in a childs bedroom, and the messages that are presented foster a love for the world. Good luck,
Joe

Music draws man. Any music. That is not the same as Jesus drawing man.

Music moves man. Any music. The resolution of chords, crescendos, the beat etc. are examples. It is easy to mistake being moved by music for being moved by the Spirit of God.

Re. The argument that God uses music: God can use anything, donkeys for example. That doesn't mean we should invest in donkey farms.

Re. “Its the words that count.” If that were true there would be no legalistic, dead, churches where the word of God is hammered home weekly. What is the politically correct phrase? Dead orthodoxy?

Re. CCM brings the young people into church where they can be exposed to the gospel. Is that what our Sunday gathering is to be? Is that where evangelism occurs? Sex and money draw the unsaved. I was going to say we don't use those but I guess the money factor has been proved in the prosperity church circles. And secular advertising proves the other factor outside of the church.

Most notice when the Power of God lifts off a congregation. It remains a vague sense and no one articulates it. Music is a functional substitute (for power, for the Spirit of God). It seems to work and satisfy (placate).

SAVANNAH SAID: “It is sad indeed, but it is true indeed, that men cannot bear having their idols targeted and their high places torn down, without resorting to accusations,insinuations and assumptions.” I would say, “Without being offended, and acting out that offense.”

I am reading a book along with a Sunday school class (Counterfeit Gods by Timothy Keller). He reminds readers that only God can know our hearts, particularly when it comes to idols (the heart of the old man being an idol factory). While I do not recommend the study of books in Sunday school, reactions to just the introduction was remarkable. One woman confessed the biblically good “cause” she had been working for had become an idol and God had led her out of that. A couple was insistent that children cannot be an idol for parents, gave the example of their daughter, and pressed the group for agreement on this point.

Warning bells indicating the possible proximity to an idol, indicating something worth prayerful examination (not knee-jerk condemnation) include: What do I sacrifice to? What do I LOVE? What do I TRUST? What do I OBEY? [“Idols actually control us since we think we must have them or life is meaningless.”]

Re: music and idols: I have noticed that many churches have replaced denominational identification with the advertisement of “Contemporary Worship.” What ever else that MAY mean, that means different music, that means CCM. Is it really true that people cannot worship God without CCM? Very odd. What is going on, what is moving the person who raises their hands singing CCM and does not raise their hands singing the Doxology?

Reading this thread, and I mean ALL VIEW POINTS, has been helpful to me. All gods but God are crushed under the weight of man's expectations (Eph. 3: 20-23). Jesus is a perfect example. Perhaps music was lifted up higher than the presence of God, than God, in the Welsh revival, “reported” to be remarkable for its music and short duration. I also know there are times that I am pressed to sing, out of the abundance of my heart for Him. It is not unlike the press to testify, to give Glory to God, for specific cleansing and freedom from sin.

Again, this has been one of the better threads on this subject.

Joan, I appreciate your post..very insightful and right on.

Music touches the emotions and by it may impact the body as well. Even seen females swaying their body's in response to the rhythm? This concept can be expanded and explained in detail, but that is beyond the scope of this particular post.

I have been thinking about this issue and the question challenges me: "what constitutes godly music?" How can I discern what is godly?

The other day I found a modern hymn on Cyber-hymnal and played it. I knew the song well so I sang along with it. As I thought of the words and how the harmonies enhanced the meaning of the lyrics, I felt a real joy well up with in...it was a divine joy, one I cannot produce on my own, one that potentially can move one to tears. The song? "Tender Love of Jesus".

Perhaps, this is an indicator when the Holy Spirit is pleased with the music? Something to consider....

Joan,
Thanks for the insight, but the strawman arguments you've highlighted as examples of why people use "CCM" are shallow at best. I don't think anyone here is attempting to defend some pragmatic reason for using music in ministry, like the arguments you listed; I know my point was to those who broad brush other christians intentions and assume what listenters will and will not respond to because of the type of music being performed. I'm not trying to be sharp, just direct.

I do like this point Joan:
"Music moves man. Any music. The resolution of chords, crescendos, the beat etc. are examples. It is easy to mistake being moved by music for being moved by the Spirit of God."
I agree with this completely- just look the danger of abusing alter calls by playing "just as I am" over and over again. Can people respond under the Holy Spirits conviction? sure. Can God work in those who are moved by emotion? Of course. But the danger remains that one may simply be having an emotional experience and nothing more. Same with hip hop, same with Stryper, or those Gaither fellows.

I listen and learn from expository hip hop, and I am secure in my freedom to do so; yet I don't abuse that freedom by trying to push it on everyone else. To do so would be sinful and unloving. If I so desired, I could try to popularize it among some of the youth in my church, yet I don't, out of respect for their parents, who may not agree with my choice of music. I am secure enough that God is being honored that I don't feel the need to ensure it's survival through mass marketing among everyone I meet :)

as many of Watts' songs were tunes from popular barroom songs that were given lyric that honored God.

This argument has been put forth to justify rock music. However, I have been told this is not true. I cannot prove it, however, can you prove your statement to be the truth?

I have been thinking about this issue since you posted...Savannah and Joan posted long articles about CCM and for some this is still not good enough - because they may have pasted/copied their articles - evidence on why CCM should not be embraced.

Many will argue it is because of taste and this is true - sometimes. You can have classical music and southern gospel and the probability is that lovers of one will not enjoy the other because of taste. Rock music is totally different. As I was thinking about music, I thought of a few things and came up with some thoughts...I shared these with my husband to get his input and he agreed...

Here is my list:

1. Music is an expression of the emotions, propelled by the mind, what one thinks and his reactions to what is.

2. Music is all around us. We say birds sing because of the warbling sounds that issue from their mouths. Experts will not call it music, but to the ignorant like me, it is musical and I love to hear them sing. (Maybe the experts never heard a mocking bird sing?)

3. Heaven is filled with music. John writes about it in Revelation. Others who have had visions of heaven mention the music as being so beautiful.

4. Lucifer was a musician in heaven. Isaiah 14:11-12. As God’s arch enemy he will use whatever means, primarily music, to thwart God’s will.

5. Musicians who promote the devils music have an evil look about themselves. They look angry; there is no peaceful look about themselves.

6. These musicians look so evil I would not trust my grandchildren with them. It is no telling what they will do to them.

7. The sound of the devil’s music is one of frustration, anger.

8. There is happy music, but it may not necessarily be religious, like yodeling although this form has been used with Christian songs. Happy music can bring laughter, delight.

9. Rock music amplifies the dark side of life, the result of sin in a person’s life. Why would one want to sing about conflict, heartbreak, distress?

10. Culture has discouraged males from expressing their emotions. I wonder whether they are finding their outlet in sports and music? They love contact sports and rock music. Both throb with heavy emotion. Many who star in these sports and music look angry, frustrated; not like one who I could trust in any way, least of all my grandchildren.

11. If music is neutral, why do so many of these rock musicians abuse drugs? Chase women? Rape? Die young? Back in the 1960s Bob Harrington, a then Southern Baptist evangelist to Bourbon Street, New Orleans, used to say that when Christian musicians pass over to the secular, they will die young. If you check it out, this is true. (My quoting Harrington in no way endorses what he is today.)

12. Rock music is not peaceful. It is absolutely irritating.

13. Loud music, regardless of the genre is irritating - it just about drives one crazy.

14. Most CCM amplify their sound to decibels deemed unsafe for the hearing.

15. Too many modern music forms are difficult to emulate. Simple singing is not.

These are a few of my thoughts on this issue. Likely will think of more as the day passes…..

There is no such thing as "Christian Music".
There are only "Christian Lyrics"

A song is not holy, or unholy, because it was written in 3/4 time in the key of G. Some great hymns and a great many Southern Gospel songs were written that way... as were a very great number of country western "drinking and cheat on your wife" songs. There is no "Christian" music in and of itself.

There is no such thing as "Christian Music".
There are only "Christian Lyrics"

Find songs that are sound lyrically and expressed in musical styles you enjoy... whatever that may be. The entire arguement about style is irrelevant. It is no different than argueing that vanilla ice cream is "Godly" and chocolate ice cream is "Ungodly". It is nothing more than flavor, or style, preference. However, when someone is spiritually immature, and perhaps has a bit of a self righteous attitude, it translates into them thinking that their personal musical style preference is the one that God has mandated as the "Holy Godly Musical Style".

Just find Godly lyrics in a style you enjoy... and if you do you will find your preferences growing to include vast arrays of styles. You will be able to judge and enjoy by the actual content and character of the song rather than what key and time signature it was written in. Everything from Gregorian Chant, CCM, Classical, Celtic, Screamo, Hip Hop, Prophetic, Historical Church Hymns, Metal, etc. In fact I have ALL of these styles on my IPOD/MP3 playlists. I may hear an ancient chanting of a liturgical Psalm or Canticle .. followed by a Keith Green Song... followed by A Screamo band..followed by a rousing rendition of A Mighty Fortress Is Our God.... followed by a the Chicago bluesy riffs of Rez Band and closing with a piece of Celtic songs with great visual imagery in them. All of them glorifying Jesus...all of them living Godly lives as far as I am aware...I can receive from all styles. It seems to me that I am more mature in that stance now than I was years ago when I labeled much music as "ungodly" simply because it was in a style I was unfamiliar or uncomfortable with.

You judge the tree BY ITS FRUIT.... not on the basis of what fruit is produced by it. Lemon trees, lime trees, almond trees, olive trees, coconut trees, bannana trees, walnut trees, etc.......they all produce very different things. You judge that tree by the quality of the fruit on that specific tree. For example you can't take Jesus parable and say "all almond trees are bad"... However, you can judge the almonds from a particular tree and tell if the fruit of that particular tree is bad. We must have as much sense in the spiritual as we do in the natural. You can't just say a particular musical style is evil/bad in and of itself. However, you can look at the fruit in an individual artists life and know if they will bring forth good or bad fruit...whatever style it may come in. Then simply judge the lyrics by the Word of God. This will enable you to receive from all kinds and myriads of styles that will bless you.

Ginnyrose. I really liked your post. Very thought provoking.

I've always had a difficulty reconciling rock music with the holiness of God. The two just don't seem to go together. Growing up when Christian Rock was in its infancy, I remember how it was always kept on the fringes. As my generation has grown up Christian Rock has become much more mainstream.

Interesting that the justification of Christian Rock usually comes by appealing to the lyrics of the songs i.e. that they can be educational etc. but lyrics very much play a secondary role in rock music. I like the way you address the essence of rock music being unpeaceful.

May God give us direction on this....

In posting this, I guess I am going to risk others taking offense. I pray that none do as this thread does seem to be honestly seeking on a difficult subject snarling-up the Body of Christ today.

SOLOMON 101: I would love to hear your heart and mind on music, not what it might be to man, but what you have discerned it is to God.

The idea, "This will enable you to receive from all kinds and myriads of styles that will bless you." may have some truth in it. Like there is truth in, "When we pray, we are blessed." When I read your last sentence something Ravenhill sharpened the focus on came to mind "Its not what you got out of it. What did God get out of it."

If we just stop with what you said so far, it reminds me of the distorted gospel referred to as "Come to Jesus and get blessings." or however its put. Yes believers are very blessed, but that is only part, maybe just a side-effect. I know you remember, "Bless the Lord."

Remember the offering. I really do think that Genesis 22:5 defines worship, happening to also be the first time the Hebrew word is used.

I understood your: "There is no such thing as 'Christian Music'." It reminded me of my response to "a Christian psychologist": "You mean like a Christian plumber, a Christian electrician?"

Better stop here before I add more related but not on topic things. God bless all His servants made for His pleasure.

Lol krispy. Yeah the old kjv...

My problem with modern Christian music/rock is that I'm just not sure about it. The Bible (certainly the kjv anyhow) ;-) tells me that we wrestle not against flesh and blood but against the rulers of darkness and spiritual wickedness in high places etc (ephesians 6:12). I suspect that the world of modern Christian music, with its emotional appeal, offers an irresistible platform for Satan to deceive.

My intention is certainly not to sow dissension among brothers and sisters here, but to voice a valid concern. This thread has brought out some superb points. Getting down to the root of an issue is what we're after. I recognise that many young talented Christians are now involved in rock groups and God can and will work through it, but it is vital we warn of the dangers.

I am still here - just reading and thinking and trying to find time to locate the lyrics to some of his favorite music. Thank you all for your sincere input and desire to see God glorified in every aspect of our lives.

Hello...

This is a difficult topic. Like Krispy said, this one can be as divisive as almost any other that has been discussed here in the SermonIndex forums.

As a musician (piano and guitar), I can empathize with various points on all sides of this discussion. In fact, I have often felt torn in regard to the topic. I understand that many people see "music" as being "neutral" (neither good nor evil) -- and can be used merely as a tool to accompany words. Yet I also realize that music is a language. Language (and even sounds) can be used to express emotion. "Shouting" wordless syllables and musical notes can be just as frightening -- or just as joyful -- as shouting words. They can characterize or even set a "mood" and even change the atmosphere of a room. In fact, I believe that you can almost profanely "curse" with music as easily as you can with words.

Still, I don't know that anyone on this side of Eternity knows with any certainty just which music is acceptable to God (or whether there even is a type of music that is acceptable or unacceptable to begin with). Yet I also think that this is the most important standard for a musician! I think that any Christian musician should be keenly desirous to PLEASE God with what the musician writes, sings or plays. The greatest underlying motive should be to please the Lord with purity of heart and motive. I believe that any legitimate Christian musician should have this as a primary motive: Will this please the Lord? Too often, I think that the musician is worried about pleasing a crowd or his own musical tastes.

I totally agree with what musicians like Keith Green and Steve Camp have said and written about the contemporary Christian music industry. For many, it is merely a profession that brings fame and fortune -- albeit for music that is performed (at least rhetorically) in the Name of Jesus. I have attended Christian concerts where I found the entire atmosphere to be somewhat disturbing.

Now, I came from a non-Christian background where I loved rock and rap music. I have heard some Christian rock songs that I think were wholeheartedly meant to please the Lord. But for every one song like that, I think that I have heard another 99 that reeked of confusion or selfish musical pleasure. I have heard worship songs set to heavy metal music -- in which the intimate lyrics of worship seemed to be literally shouted AT God (rather than intimately offered to Him). I have often wondered why the musicians felt the need to change the tune or "rockify" those intimate lyrics of worship in the first place...although I suppose that it could be an easy profit for many of those bands.

I attended the Rock of Ages Music Festival in Calistoga not too long ago. I remember watching some of the teenagers "slam dancing" and "crowd surfing" during some of those rock versions of intimate worship songs. Maybe I am getting a little older, but I was deeply troubled by it. The bands publicly proclaimed that their goal was to "show the world that Christians know how to have fun" and applauded the dancing (even sensual dancing) that went on during the concert. Yet many of those same dancers were also smoking and drinking in between musical acts. Praise the Lord and pass the joint? Yikes!

I also noticed an interesting thing shortly after beginning college. The congregation with which I fellowshipped had decided to dedicate a month to prayer and fasting. As a result, they shut down all of the "ministries" in order to focus on this endeavor. I was involved with the youth and college ministries. I noticed that most of the praise and worship musicians stopped attending church when they weren't allowed to play (or perform?). They even publicly complained that they were "bored." I suppose that there is nothing more "boring" that spending time in intimate communion with God? Or maybe this should have been a revelation that something might be wrong? Further, I noticed that many of the young people in the congregation were noticeably bored during worship and praise. They would sit down in their chairs and talk to one another or just roll their eyes -- even during extremely upbeat praise songs. However, they would be applauded by the youth minister when they danced to the Christian rock songs later on in the meetings. This tended to quietly concern me.

To be clear: I think that I am harder on Christian musicians than I am with secular musicians. Personally, I don't even have a problem with writing or singing a love song to my wife -- since it is motivated by a love that God gave me for her. I don't find it sinful...as long as it is motivated by a Godly and Biblical love. At the same time, I have trouble listening to Christian artists who seem to be motivated by a desire to sell an album.

Many modern Christian acts will freely admit that they are mainly "entertainers" with a Christian message. Even many "praise and worship" CDs are produced by offshoots of secular producers and are generated on a regular basis to sell as many CDs as possible. It is, after all, a music INDUSTRY -- even with the dove, fish or Christian lyrics found on the CD covers. I suppose that this is the main difference between individuals like Keith Green -- who grew to the point where he no longer wanted to sell his music, since he credited it to God and felt that selling God's music would be akin to selling sacrifices (doves, lambs, incense, etc...) at the Temple Courts. BTW, I think that every aspiring Christian musician should read NO COMPROMISE, the biography of Keith Green written by his wife. This book shows the inner struggle and turmoil that Keith Green experienced when coming to his conclusion.

My favorite times of worship are often when I am alone...with a guitar or piano...and just pour my music out before the Lord like a drink offering. I even have "prayer songs" that I have written while praying for someone, some congregation or a specific need. Sometimes, these prayers are simply music while other times they are accompanied by lyrics. Some of the most meaningful songs that I have written were born out of various situations that I was going through in life. When I ran out of words to pray or worship, there was music that flowed from deep within.

As I have continued in my walk with the Lord, I have noticed that I have slowly begun moving away from much of what is sold by popular modern Christian musicians. Now, this is not to say that I don't listen to Christian music. My computer contains nearly 10,000 songs that I have purchased, written or received over the years. I even prayerfully chose and purchased the music for our wedding -- including each song played before, during and after the ceremony (including music during our wedding feast). Yet I have found that much of the music that means the most to me today comes from people who are already dead and gone. Before I became a Christian, I would have NEVER listened to Keith Green music. Yet, he is probably my favorite musician. I find myself drawn to old hymns too...and I enjoy reading about the experiences out of which these songs were born.

Anyway, I suppose that I haven't added much to this conversation that hasn't already been written. Ultimately, I think that we should always remember that our life's mission should be to please God in all that we say and do (and play, sing or listen to). Moreover, we should endeavor to have a clear conscience in this. We should never be afraid of questioning such things -- and asking God whether or not He is pleased. Of course, this is true with everything that we say and do. Are we pleasing the Lord with our music...dress...attitude...words...and focus? Or is some of what we are doing "selfish" and focused mostly on what pleases ourselves and others?

I do wish that there were a dozen more Keith Green's out there today. I haven't found too many modern Christian musicians who can "strike a chord" in my heart as this man who died a decade before I came to Christ! Don't get me wrong -- there is some very lovely music out there. Unfortunately for me, little of it seems to have the spiritual impact of some of hymns that are 200-300 years old. I pray that God raises up psalmists who can pour out their prayers like David...where every stroke of the guitar or touch of a piano key is offered to God as a sacrifice from a hungry heart!

Maybe I have said too much...or maybe...not enough.

:-\\

God bless you savannah
I don't know if anyone else has noticed this but almost all new 'worship' songs out of CCM are 'rock-ish' and it bothers me to no end.
I'm a vocalist on a worship team and have little say in the choice of worship songs. I can't tell you how many times I've wondered how a particular song could've have been chosen for congregational worship.
For one, the lyrics are, at best, limp but are quickly defended as Scriptural because they express love for Jesus.
Like savannah said, they don't express deep truth, such as can be meditated upon...

To the OP, let the Lord lead you in your choice of music for your son and may He grant you strength to remain firm when you disagree with your son. Amen

Excellent thoughts Chris.

Just some random thoughts on this subject:

Loudness - Sometimes CCM is objected to because it is so loud. It should be noted though, that when the Scriptures exhort us to "make a joyful noise unto the Lord" that the Hebrew word behind "noise" indicates it was ear-splitting loud.

Instruments - The Jews used the same musical instruments for worship that their pagan neighbors used in their worship.

Style - Because of the lack of audio from 2,000 years ago, it is impossible to know for certain what Jewish music sounded like. But from the Scriptures when you see them talk about music, sometimes it talks about a certain style, and sometimes the translations will attempt to describe as best as the scholars know, the style of the music. Some of that music was very calm and meditative, other times, it was very fast beat. My guess, aside from electric amplification, some of it would've sounded very "rockish" at times.

My guess, some of it wouldn't have been a very simple sound, or southern gospel in nature.

ccchhhrrriiisss,

I thoroughly enjoyed reading your thoughtful post. Thank you!

For those who are interested, there is a new book on this topic: "Why Johnny Can't Sing Hymns" by T. David Gordon.

With care in Christ...

Perhaps a brief history of rock music is in order? The information I am about to share is not a copy/paste job. I happen to have had a quite a few birthday celebrations and can remember. What I will write is based on memory - I witnessed these things.

Elvis Presley is considered the king of rock. It used to be called "Rock 'n Roll". Later the term was shortened to 'rock'.

Elvis was raised in the Pentecostal church and sang there. Obviously, a gifted singer, he took his talent into the secular arena. Finding a savvy manager his skills as an entertainer became a big business. Elvis started singing during the 1950s.

Elvis, sometimes called 'Elvis the pelvis', used vulgar movements with his pelvis while performing. It was considered by the secular world too vulgar to show on TV.

The term "Rock 'n Roll" is the term borrowed from the ghetto describing the sexual act.

The sixties came along and with it four mop headed guys from the British Isles invaded our land with their music. At the same time opposition to the VietNam war was rising. You had rebellion rise on two fronts: rebellion against government and rebellion against established authority with included parents, church, schools and civil governments. There were sit-ins staged by students in colleges in protest of whatever they deemed needed fixing. (The result has been a dumbing down of curriculum where a person now can graduate with little or no evidence of having been educated.)

Until Woodstock or the Beatles or Elvis Presley, young people engaged in pre-marital sex but it was something done in private, something which people were ashamed about, something discussed in whispers. (Homosexuality was only talked about by the adults out of the hearing of their children.)It was not overt nor talked about openly without any shame. The 1960s rebellion by the youth, egged on by the performers changed all this.

The thing that helped promote this change was the music, with Elvis leading the way. This opened the floodgates of hell where Satan took full control of the music industry.

Christians are by nature a musical people - they love to sing. Elvis sang and recorded hymns - beautiful singing. Since he sang these anointed songs, he disarmed Christians' reluctance to love songs (as we used to call it) that promoted kissing, etc. He sang these hymns and "now I would like to hear these other songs." "Well, I really do not care for it, but ...." and the Devil got his foot in the door.

After the 60s, musicians became more brazen. There was money to be made. The beat, the sound became more angry, less melodious. The competition became fierce so each tried to outdo the other and to do so the music became more radical.

Today, these performers are the purveyors of every sin imaginable. These musicians look angry, have a black look about themselves. The light of the world is not shining through them because Matthew 6:23 is their reality: 23 "But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!"

The argument is made that there are a lot of godly youth involved in this music. I do not believe it although there may be a few exceptions, but not as a rule. And why do I say this? I have heard what goes on in the privacy of too many people's lives, including singers of religious music, away from the seeing eyes of others. These people do fornicate, have abortions or are having babies. Since this wonder singer/performer had a baby, single parenthood must not be so bad after all, is what the young girls are being taught to think. (It used to be considered a shame for a single woman to have a baby. But it has now become commonplace - even in the church.)

I am 63 years old or young; God had me minister at a Crises Pregnancy Center for 15 years. I loved the work and believed I would be there until I would be too old and decrepit to work. But God had other plans: one day he told me my time is up there. I laid out the fleece to determine whether what I perceived was God speaking or not. The answer came back a resounding "YES!" I told the LORD that if he is telling me to leave, he will make it so that I will have no calls nor clients for four weeks. This is a tough one, I admit. But all things being in God's control, it is not hard. And I had no calls nor clients for four weeks.

Brothers, this explains the basis of my concern for the evils of rock music, or more aptly called 'fornication' music. I have witnessed firsthand the devastating effects of this sin and it grieves me to no end to see Christians embrace it and defend it.

If you still think I am being judgemental, I suggest you do as Neil suggested, "get in to your closet and pray."

Blessings,
ginnyrose

LOL KRISPY!

You said, "There is nothing like the "music topic" to bring out igorance, judgementalism and hot air! ...well, maybe the KJV topic."

How true and how sad! The question we must ask is
"Can God be glorified in this?"

Back to the origial post: When I'm not listening to preaching or talk radio: I like to listen to:
David Crowder
Chris Tomiln
Jeremy Camp
Broken Vessels www.brokenvessels.com
Casting Crowns
Samuel David Lee www.myspace.com/samueldavidlee

Yes Krispy CORRELATION IS NOT CAUSALITY. “Underneath this discussion, buried under by a lot of top soil... is a racist element.”

CORRELATION (suits and ties accompany ripping off people OR an underlying race element accompanies warnings about CCM, accompanies SOME thinking that “condemns” christian rock ) IS NOT CAUSALITY. You can't really be offering poor reasoning in a post that wants to complain about that.

The Pride of race is like any/every one of the prides of life, hated by God among other things. Sin and old man thinking can enter into any conversation including those of preachers and book authors. Alert to that we can keep it out of this discussion and deal with it as the sin it is. Its good/helpful to point that out.

When it comes to correlation verses causality, one real question Krispy is:

Just what IS the relationship between the BAD TREE and the bad fruit, correlation or causality?

Steve,

I am surprised with your response.

I wish you could refute my points rather then go off on a rabbit trail!

It is true that rock'n roll music came from Mississippi - it was Tupelo, in fact, a city I am well familiar with - they have a very nice shopping mall- Barnes Crossing there, several miles north of downtown. Elvis Presley was from Tupelo.

Therefore... suit and ties are evil

Never did ties and suit sanctify one nor does it make one wicked, either.

After I posted my memory went back to this era in which ties and coats were worn by performers, secular and Christian alike! It did not make one more righteous then another; the Beatles used to wear suits and ties.

There were other professional singers who marketed music for both the secular and Gospel markets. I do not know where they started. They may have begun in the secular and seeing a chance to make money in the Christian market, crossed over and recorded albums for them. A few singers come to mind: Tennessee Ernie Ford, Kitty Wells, Louvin Brothers...and they dressed in suits and ties if they were male. Oddly enough, they did not yet, have that black look in their faces/bodies.

(This black look is nothing racist!!! I had a black client who had this look really bad. She was very black in skin color, but she had this black look. Skin color had nothing to do with it. She was a heavy drug abuser, addict - she told me. Actually, when I first saw her - from a distance, my initial reaction was "what is that black thing!" The look was so pronounced. If you do not understand what I am saying, please be so kind and not call me a racist. White people have this black look as well. It is not restricted to people of color!! It is an example of Matthew 6:23 in the flesh.)

buried under by a lot of top soil... is a racist element.

Steve, this is a low blow coming from you - I thought better things then this from you! You know me better then that - to make this a racist issue! Why can you not keep this discussion on the subject instead of inserting a racist element? And perhaps you do not know that I love Negro Spirituals? I also love Ba'er Rabbit stories by Uncle Remus. Does this make me a racist?

Krispy, look back on the history of rock'n roll - it encouraged immorality by playing around with sin. I remember the song "What Kind of deal is this?" Did this song encourage high moral standards? No.

Brother, I wish you would read the posts on this thread and seriously reconsider before you come back and suggest this idea is rooted in racism.

ginnyrose

.
It's senseless to argue about styles of music! God gave you and I desires, likes and dislikes and different personalities to go with it and He called us GOOD. Imagine that! Now you people come along and tell God what He created is evil.

You guys that are against this music are of the same spirit as the worst pharisee; adding laws upon laws to that is not in Scripture and twisting it to fit your certain "take" on Scripture.

Vanity, vanity, all is vanity.

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. Matthew 23.15

Right here is exactly why no one is dangerous in the Spirit anymore. Too busy arguing this piddly stuff on your computers.

We need to be about the Father's business - outside the computer rooms - healing the sick, praying for unsaved, backslidden, and hiding in our prayer closets seeking His face for what else needs to be done. (edit: Surely, God is not done!) The Father's business is edifying the church and helping them grow, this thread is NOT. My heart aches that our eyes have been drawn away from the Prize.

I am reposting appolus's thread, "Oh that God would make us dangerous!": (edit: CAPS are my emphasis)

We are so utterly ordinary, so commonplace, while we profess to know a Power the Twentieth Century does not reckon with. But WE ARE "HARMLESS," and therefore unharmed. We are spiritual pacifists, non-militants, conscientious objectors in this battle-to-the-death with principalities and powers in high places.

Meekness must be had for contact with men, but brass, outspoken boldness is required to take part in the comradeship of the Cross. We are "SIDELINERS"--coaching and CRITICIZING the real wrestlers while CONTENT TO SIT BY and leave the enemies of God unchallenged.

The world cannot hate us, we are too much like its own (bickering, whining, complaining, arguing). Oh that God would make us dangerous!

... Jim Elliot (1927-1956), Shadow of the Almighty: the
life & testament of Jim Elliot, Elisabeth Elliot,
Harper, 1958, p. 79

I posted the original questions to get some opinions on what music is
God honoring and what is not . Obviously there are mixed feelings on it, and the Scriptures do not speak directly about the style of music (correct me if I am wrong about this). God please grant us the wisdom and discernment to see into the very heart of this matter and do that which is pleasing to you.

I must humbly apologize for my outburst earlier and I'm just going to share a story with you about myself.

Good music must be pure.
Good music cannot be worldly.

Let me explain my view from another angle... Fact: Lisa cannot drink alcohol, I also don't listen to country dance music or secular hip hop, reminds me of my former life. (When I say I don't listen to it, I don't make a lifestyle out of listening to it everyday or even every month!!), now I also don't drink any beverage or coffee creamer that is reminiscent of mixed drinks that I loved drinking.

Can I take a pina colada or an irish cream beverage and call it impure and worldly??? Not Biblically!!! You probably enjoy those flavors and they do not bother you at all. (edit: this is purely fictional) But along comes Lisa who's written a rather long essay and publish a book on the evils of alcohol flavored drinks in the home and in the car and blah blah blah and if I were a betting woman, I'd say I'd have an army of Christians eventually on my side, fighting my cause against alcohol flavored drinks and we could almost make a religion out of it and have new LAWS to add to the Bible. What do you think?

Are you following me? (I'm going to be bold enough to say, if you are honest with yourself, you are.)

In conclusion, The Bible steers clear on the exact "rightness" or "correctness" on any of our sacred cows (i.e. pre/mid/post-trib; OSAS; this music subject and of course the KJV vs NIV). We can have conversations ALL day long about "our" opinions but here is my major POINT ***** -> ->

When we begin teaching these 'new laws' we've come up with to other converts as hell or heaven issues, I submit to you that we have crossed the line and have begun to teach "ANOTHER GOSPEL," one that Christ never died for and in the end, you will have to stand and give an account of adding to "this book."

I don't know about you but I think that is something to consider.

God bless us as we do our best to live for Him,

Swimmer,

Here are a handful of musicians that have really blessed me in the last few years. Some of these may be beyond the grasp of a 12-year-old simply because of the depth of the lyrics, but you can decide that prayerfully. These artists could probably be considered folk music, but there are some pop and rock influences as well. Their desire is to create quality music and to glorify God. Most, if not all, of the these artists can be found on youtube or myspace so you can sample their music at no charge and some have free downloads on their webpages or at noisetrade.

Also, Greg Gordon mentioned the music posted on sermonindex. If you like hymns, the McCoy Family singers are really good; they sing a capella (w/o insturments).

So, without futher ado, here are some suggestions for you and your family: (After Michael Card they are in no particular order.) :)

Musicians:
Michael Card
Rich Mullins
Andrew Peterson
Randall Goodgame
Caedmon’s Call
Steve Bell
Nathan Clark George
Mark Heard
Jason Gray
Wes King
Carolyn Arends
Sara Groves
Jill Phillips
Sandra McCracken
Megan Isaacson

Hymns (Artist and Titles):
Michael Card – Hymns, Starkindler
Sandra McCracken – The Builder and the Architect, In Feast or Fallow
Jill Phillips – Kingdom Come
Fernando Ortega – The Shadow of Your Wings
Buller, Balzer & Aichele – The Hymn Project
Todd Murray – Beyond Amazing Grace

(Most of these hymn cds are the more commonly known songs with the expection of Sandra McCracken who has selected much-less-known hymns)

Instrumental hymns:
Eric Wyse

Here's a sample of one of Andrew Peterson's songs:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iXv9Otxep4

I hope this helps.

Yours in Him,
Matthew

I've been keeping up with the thread. All I can say is listen to your son's music. If the purpose is to glorify God and not man I don't think you have anything to worry about. Listen to the music. Also, I've been waiting for someone to mention a band called Leeland. I've really enjoyed their music. And since nobody wanted to mention them I had to post.

http://www.leelandonline.com/

swimmer,

Your desire for your son to listen to godly music is commendable.

There is so much out there that is NOT godly and how is one to discern?

Below I will post some scripture for you to think about. Most have far-ranging applications, not just music. When making decisions one always need to consider what does the WORD say? If you are led by the Holy Spirit He will bring Scripture into your remembrance to teach you and guide you - whatever the question is at hand.

So consider:

Colossians 3:15: And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord."

II Corinthians 6:14
"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?"

Romans 12:1 - 2
"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, [which is] your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."

2 Timothy 2:15 -16
"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane [and] vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness."

Matthew 7:16 - 20
"Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them

Romans 1:28-32
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over, to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them."

On judging:

Matthew 7:1-5:

Judge not, that ye be not judged.
For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother,Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

COMMENT on this scripture: Notice these verse are directed to hypocrites, not godly persons who are discerning. Discerning is fundamental in distinguishing right from wrong - it is found throughout the entire scriptures (which is what led to Adam and Eve's downfall). When we take care of sin in our own lives we will be able to discern sin wherever it appears. Now read the following verses:

Ephesians 5:11
And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. Read Ephesians 5:1-11.

1Corinthians 2:14,15
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God:for they are foolishness unto him: neither, can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

In conclusion, I would urge you to ask the LORD for the gift of discernment. This ability is essential to living victoriously over sin and temptation AND to be able to discern the motivation of forces that pressure us.

God bless you in your pursuit of Holiness...

ginnyrose

Krispy,

The issue is not of preferences/taste of music. It goes much deeper. Obviously, you did not read all the posts written to point out the dangers of rock music. Those of us who did write about it barely scratched the surface of this issue, particularly the scientific angle.

If you will hear me, you will know I do not promote preferences with any passion. My person friends know this. The only thing that will warrant passion are those things that are so very important.

I am well familiar with the different genre of music. On the personal level I enjoy a great variety; some I find amusing - which I doubt few could understand - but it is not an issue of righteousness vs sin.

May I suggest that those of you who are convinced this discussion is one of taste vs conviction that you be careful. There may be a struggling Christian out there that will be offended. I have heard the testimonies of many males who struggled with moral failures and their music of choice was rock, and they said they had to let it go. Oh, they still liked it, but they said the devil used it to prevent victory in their lives.

Be careful, is all I can say...God is still on the throne and he will judge us all one day and then we will all have to give account.

ginnyrose