The Baptism in the Holy Spirit: The Evidence

The Baptism in the Holy Spirit: The Evidence

But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you… Acts 1:8

…the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. Rom. 5:5

\tIn Christianity today, especially Pentecostal churches, there is a lot of talk about the baptism in the Holy Spirit, an experience that Jesus said His followers should seek and expect to experience, and with that talk usually comes the question of the evidence of this Holy Spirit baptism. If you’ve been around the Pentecostal or Charismatic movement you’ve probably heard the answer “speaking in tongues”. This answer comes from Acts 2:4, “And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues..”. All throughout the books of Acts we see believers being filled with the Holy Ghost and speaking in tongues (all except twice Acts 4:31, 8:17). So should we consider that to be sufficient enough to label speaking in tongues the “initial physical evidence”, or should we dig a little deeper to see if the Bible tells us of any other evidence that someone has received this gift promised by the Father. First I want us to remember that the book of Acts is a history book, though I dare not compare modern records of church history with Holy Scripture, I think we should take a look at the experiences of other believers who profess to have been baptized in the Holy Spirit:

D.L. Moody

\tIn 1871 at one of Mr. Moody’s meetings, he was stirred with a desire for spiritual power by two women who would attend the meetings. He could see that they were praying, and at the close of the service they would say to him:
\t“We have been praying for you.”

\t“Why don’t you pray for the people?” Mr. Moody would ask.

\t“Because you need the power of the Spirit” they would say.

\t“I need the power! Why?” said Mr. Moody, in relating the incident years after, “ I thought I had power. I had the largest congregations in Chicago”, but the two women kept praying for him. There came a great hunger into his soul as he visited New York.

\t“I was crying all the time that God would fill me with His Spirit. Well, one day, in the city of New York -- oh, what a day! -- I cannot describe it, I seldom refer to it; it is almost too sacred an experience to name… I can only say that God revealed Himself to me, and I had such an experience of His love that I had to ask Him to stay His hand. I went to preaching again. The sermons were no different; I did not present any new truths, and yet hundreds were converted. I would not now be placed back where I was before that blessed experience if you should give me all the world -- it would be as the small dust of balance.”

Paul Washer
\t
\t“When I was 22 years old I’d go out street preaching in Austin, TX. I was scared half out of my wits. I’d walk around a lot of times the whole night with my Bible and not be able to share with anybody or preach, like a coward… So I decided that either this whole thing is a hoax, and I knew it wasn’t, but I said where’s the power? Where’s the life? What did those apostles do?… I went out west of Austin and I climbed up on a hill and I went crazy for 3 days. I would grab rocks and throw them at the sky and beg God to come down. Nothing happened! I went home, it went on couple more months, I almost got to the point where I was crazy. And one night I cried out to God, I don’t know how long, but God came, and I thought I was going to die. I laid on my face I don’t know how long, I covered my head, I curled up in the fetal position and just laid there. Then all of a sudden a joy that I had never known in my life, my mouth shot open… It was like everything I had ever read in the book of Psalms came pouring out of my mouth. After that did I struggle with sin? Yep! Did I struggle with fear? Yep! Did I have all the common problems with sanctification? Yep! But did my life change? Yep! I started going out there and preaching. God was real, He’s more real to me than all of you sitting in this room right now.”

Charles Finney

\t“As I turned and was about to take a seat by the fire, I received a mighty baptism of the Holy Ghost. Without any expectation of it, without ever having the thought in my mind that there was any such thing for me, without any recollection that I had ever heard the thing mentioned by any person in the world, the Holy Spirit descended upon me in a manner that seemed to go through me, body and soul. I could feel the impression, like a wave of electricity, going through and through me. Indeed it seemed to come in waves and waves of liquid love, for I could not express it in any other way. It seemed like the very breath of God. I can recollect distinctly that it seemed to fan me, like immense wings”

“No words can express the wonderful love that was shed abroad in my heart. I wept aloud with joy and love; and I do not know but I should say, I literally bellowed out the unutterable gushings of my heart. These waves came over me, and over me, one after the other, until I recollect I cried out, ‘I shall die if these waves continue to pass over me. I said, ‘Lord, I cannot bear any more; yet I had no fear of death.”

Duncan Campbell

\t“But listen, friends, as I lay there, God the Holy Ghost came upon me. Wave after wave came rolling over me until the love of God swept through me like a mighty river! So much so, that there were moments… now listen, my daughter beside me put her hand on my shoulders and she prayed, ‘Oh God, keep his reason to daddy.’ I was never more sane in my life! But I was so wrought by the Holy Ghost that I cried and I laughed and I prayed.”

“Someone asked me, ‘Did you speak in tongues?’ Oh, I was asked that again and again. No, my dear people, I’ve never spoken in tongues nor have I ever been in a meeting where tongues have been practiced… No dear people… mind you, when I say that, don’t think that I’m denying the gifts mentioned in the New Testament, precious gifts when God gives them. But all I can say is that it never came to me!”

“But I say that the baptism of the Holy Ghost came to me… in a mighty cleansing, empowering power!”

(A professor essentially asks him what difference the experience made in his life and he responds):

“Well, I think, professor, that the difference must be obvious to you from what has already happened, ‘I said. ‘I went out to preach the same sermons with this difference- that I now saw hundreds converted, hundreds brought savingly to Christ.”

R.A. Torrey

\t“I had been a minister for some years before I came to the place where I saw that I had no right to preach until I was definitely baptized with the Holy Ghost… Then just as far as I could, I shut myself up alone in my study and spent the time continually on my knees asking God to baptize me with the Holy Spirit… I recall the exact spot where I was kneeling in prayer in my study… It was a very quiet moment, one of the most quiet moments I ever knew… Then God simply said to me, not in any audible voice, but in my heart, ‘It’s yours. Now go and preach.”

“Some time after this experience (I do not recall just how long after), while sitting in my room one day, that very same room… suddenly, as near as I can describe it, though it does not exactly describe it, I was struck from my chair onto the floor and I found myself shouting (I was not brought up to shout and I am not of the shouting temperament, but I shouted like the loudest shouting Methodist), ‘Glory to God, glory to God, glory to God,’ and I could not stop. I tried to stop, but it was just as if some other power than my own was moving my jaws. At last, when I had succeeded in pulling myself together, I went downstairs and told my wife what had just happened. But that was not when I was baptized with the Holy Spirit. I was baptized with the Holy Spirit when I took Him by faith in the naked Word of God…”

Jonathan Edwards

\t“Once as I rode out into the woods for my health, in 1737, having alighted from my horse in a retired place, as my manner commonly had been to walk for divine contemplation and prayer, I had a view that for me was extraordinary, of the glory of the Son of God. As near as I can judge, this continued about an hour, and kept me the greater part of the time in a flood of tears and weeping aloud. I felt an ardency of soul to be what I know not otherwise how to express, emptied and annihilated; to love Him with a holy and pure love; to serve and follow Him; to be perfectly sanctified and made pure with a divine and heavenly purity.”

\tJonathan Edward’s didn’t (to my knowledge) refer to this experience as the baptism in the Holy Spirit, but it does show that he was no stranger to the power and presence of the Holy Ghost. Likewise his ministry also validates the fact that he was “endued with power from on high”.

\tSo all throughout church history we see men, who have accomplished great things, who were baptized in the Holy Spirit, yet without ever speaking in tongues. At the same time there are many others who have received this baptism that do speak with tongues (David Wilkerson, Zac Poonen, B.H. Clendennen,). So what should we say then? Can speaking in other tongues be the evidence of the baptism in the Holy Spirit? Or were these men wrong in calling their experience the baptism in the Holy Ghost? What does the Bible say?

\tThe Bible says in 1 Corinthians 12:4, “Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.” and in verse 11 it tells us that the Holy Spirit “gives them to each one, just as He determines.” In the entirety of Chapter 12, Paul is assuring the Corinthian believers that everyone will not have the same gifts of the Spirit, and that just because one is not an “eye” or an “ear” doesn’t mean that they are not part of the body. Now with that said, I fully understand the Pentecostal interpretation of 1 Corinthians chapters 12-14, the belief that Paul is speaking of two different kinds of tongues. But lets be honest and simple in our interpretation of these chapters. In 14:5 Paul says, “I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.” Now is Paul here talking about two different types of tongues in this one verse? He would that all spoke in tongues, obviously because he sees benefit in this gift, as the preceding verse says, “He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself”. Paul also said that he thanked God that he spoke in tongues more than them all, yet in the church would rather speak with understanding. Paul saw great benefit in this gift and desired that all have it, and that in the church it would be used for the use of edifying the body through interpretation, but he also realized that the Spirit “gives them to each one, just as He determines.” In chapter 12:30 he asks the rhetorical question “do all speak with tongues?” , to which, the answer is obviously, NO. But our Pentecostal brothers always say, “ well not everyone who speaks in tongues has the GIFT of tongues.” (referring to giving a message in tongues that is followed by interpretation), but just because someone hasn’t used the gift in that area of ministry doesn’t mean they don’t have that gift. It is the same gift just with different uses, to edify oneself, and to edify the entire body. I believe an honest simple reading of chapters 12-14 will reveal that to anyone who is open to truth.

\tSadly we are often times blinded by our traditions. The testimonies of the men above would be denied as being the true baptism in the Holy Spirit in the majority of churches today, because of the lack of the gift of tongues, even though they got just what Jesus promised, POWER! The only evidence Jesus ever said would be is power, power to be witnesses, and power to love like He loved. “For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.” I love the Pentecostal church ( I am a member of an A/G church), I believe the gift of tongues should be in operation in every local body, but I do pray that the emphasis that is put on tongues as the “initial physical evidence” would be placed on the evidence that Jesus gave us:

But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you… Acts 1:8

\t
\t

sorry this should probably be in the articles and sermons thread.

Baptism in the Holy Spirit is evidenced
by the fruits of the Spirit!!

I agree that the fruit of the Spirit is evidence that someone is walking in the Spirit,and will continue to increase throughout the christian life, but I also believe that the baptism in the Holy Spirit is an experience to be sought by every believer. I think Greg said it best in his 95 theses to the modern church #2:

Thesis 2 - Evangelicals ignore most of the methods, practices and principles found in Acts chapter 2.

We need to be clothed in power from on high!

To me, walking in the Spirit is...

Brother frank, outstanding post, the Spirit bears witness to what you have written. This is one of the best descriptions of spiritual life that I have read, thanks.

Oh to walk as He walked, all the day, all my days...

In Christ,

Ron

"Charles Finney

“As I turned and was about to take a seat by the fire, I received a mighty baptism of the Holy Ghost. Without any expectation of it, without ever having the thought in my mind that there was any such thing for me, without any recollection that I had ever heard the thing mentioned by any person in the world, the Holy Spirit descended upon me in a manner that seemed to go through me, body and soul. I could feel the impression, like a wave of electricity, going through and through me. Indeed it seemed to come in waves and waves of liquid love, for I could not express it in any other way. It seemed like the very breath of God. I can recollect distinctly that it seemed to fan me, like immense wings”

This is almost an exact description of my experience in 1976 when filled with the Holy Ghost and power, however I spoke in tongues too.

I had only been saved for 3 days, and had people at my church pray for me, laying on hands, for the baptism of the Holy Spirit. I was pretty much ignorant of the things of God, except that I was a wretched sinner, and had been powerfully delivered from my sinful past. I had never been to church since I was a small child. I didn't feel any difference after they prayed for me, but I kept praying, practically day and night to recieve all God had for me. If there was something to this baptism of the Holy Spirit I wanted it. After that third day I was sound asleep and found myself sitting straight upright in the bed with my arms out cross fashion with what felt like electricity surging through my body, and I was speaking in tongues. No words I could recognise. I woke my husband up with the noise.

Immediately after this infilling I was compelled to share what God had done for me. It was like a fire shut up in my bones. It felt like a huge lump of love in my heart and it oozed out to everybody. Just about everybody I came in contact with got saved, glory to God, and my life was totally tranformed to live for God. I feel this event has been the most important thing in keeping me following Jesus. Nobody can ever tell me it didn't happen and that it wasn't a true gift from God. It is a treasured time that I can't deny. It was real and solid. I thank God for it.

Like Appolus shared these signs of our relationship, the fruit of the Spirit, are accompanying the baptism of power. You can't help but show love, you can't help but show mercy. Not that you have these things in yourself, but Christ in us is manifest through these earthen vessels that all the glory should go the the lover of our souls.

It is real. However, I would never say that people who have not had the "evidence of tongues" are not filled. Only God knows that for sure. That dispute has gone around and around and it will probably never be answered to everyone's satifaction. All I know I experienced it this way, but I have seen many people who appear to be full of the power of the Holy Spirit and they have never said they experienced it the same way I did. I do thank God for making is it so.... clear to me.

TimmyJoe, can you provide the link on where you got this from. I'm the most interested in Paul Washer's one. Thanks

This is just a little article I wrote myself. Here is the link for the Paul Washer testimony: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpZyl8VcCYc it is about 13 mins in. 13:49 to be exact. Finney's is from a biography of his. Moody and Torrey I got from a website http://www.prmi.org/files/gem2.pdf. Campbell's I found on a forum here on SI, and Edwards came from an E.M. Bounds book, The Essentials of Prayer.

IntheLight said,

Brother frank, outstanding post, the Spirit bears witness to what you have written. This is one of the best descriptions of spiritual life that I have read, thanks.

Amen! Brother Frank, that was a very encouraging post.

Thanks,
TimmyJoe

I enjoyed your article, Timmy. I believe (correct me if I'm wrong anybody), churches are supported by their governing body and if they step away from what the governing body declares what is 'evidence' of the baptism of the Holy Ghost, they are fired; ejected out of the church; or the whole church is ejected. I'm not quite sure what the steps are but they will bring you into line (if you let them) and they do it by withholding $$$$$ from you and the church.

We can see the trap many preachers have fallen into of looking to another for our livelihood instead of God! I'm not blaming them b/c the Lord allowed me to see this up close & personal a few years ago. When I did the ppt and sound for the church I went to, the church paid me with a $250 gas card every month for about 2 yrs and what was the FIRST thing I thought about when I knew it was time to leave... that's right, that piddly card! I was unemployed at the time and I probably stayed about 10 months longer than I should have and all over me arguing with myself over that gas card. I can't imagine counting on $2000 or more dollars a month coming in. God free up our pastors to be free for you, Jesus!!

And another side of it too is, that's why a lot of these TV preachers have broken away from their denominations b/c they didn't want to give their governing body "all that money they made."

Greed it's everywhere. I heard Derek Prince say in a sermon last week, "sin is crouching at the door," when we go out and when we come back in... it's there waiting on us, to trounce on us when we come in tired and beat down, if we don't stay alert.

In the 1950's, the pastors of the church I grew up had some mighty signs and wonders in their midst and several pentecostal denominations wanted them to join in with their church and they prayed the first couple times and finally the Lord said to them, "If you want man to tell what you preach, join their denomination. If you don't, you need to stay with me." And they stayed with God.

We need to pray for the pastors that those who have an ear to hear will hear the call of the Lord and teach what needs to be taught to their sheep come hell or high water, in the name of Jesus!!

God bless you,

TimmyJoe,
the link given below is 1 hour+. Is it the right link because you mentioned that it was only 13 minutes for Paul Washer's. Thanks.

Quote from TimmieJoe
'Here is the link for the Paul Washer testimony: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpZyl8VcCYc it is about 13 mins in. 13:49 to be exact.'

learn,

Yes that is the right link. it is about an hour and 25 mins long, but the testimony is at 13 mins and 49 secs into the video. 13:49 is where you can here it to save you from having to watch the whole thing, even though the whole thing is very good.

Thank you so much TimmyJoe. Yep its at the 13:49th minute of the 1+hr video.

Denny Kenaston said,

I want to say something about speaking in tongues. You seek God, you break your heart before, God, God pours out His spirit upon you, and you might speak in tongues. Sometimes that happens. Many times it doesn’t happen, but sometimes it happens. And if we’re going to be honest with this Bible… at least for me, I can’t stand up here and wiggle my way through all of those verse in the Bible and give you a nice theological reason why all of those things have passed away. I can’t do that. I don’t speak in tongues. I’ve never spoken in tongues. That’s not the longing of my heart. I’ll tell you what I pray continually, I pray, I plead, and beg God that I might prophesy, “God, to the edifying of the Church, I want to prophesy,”. So I’ve been hooked on that gift for a ling time. So I’m just saying that because, hey, that may happen. But I know there’s lot of confusion about that in this America where we live and there’s a lot of emotional confusion on it, and there’s a lot of static, emotional “working up” of things, and it’s not at all what I’m talking about, not at all. Most of it is spurious. As for me, I’ll take Moody and Finney’s anointing any day over this stuff that they seem to be having in this America. I’ll take Moody’s anointing, and never have to speak in another tongue. I’ll take Finney’s anointing any day over that. The point I’m making is, again we’re not looking for an experience. Again, we’re looking for the diving nature of God descending upon a man’s life overwhelming him with His presence and putting the character of the Living God upon His heart and the anointing upon his words. This I want. This I want, and you should also want, and seek with all of your heart, believing “Much more shall the Heavenly Father give to them that ask. Much, much, more.

I want to recommend Denny Kenaston's sermons "baptism in the Holy Ghost and the New Testament reality" and "Enduement of Power".

they are in the text sermons section for anyone interested in more on this subject. :)

Thank,
Timmyjoe

This has nothing to do with the One baptism into One Spirit of the Body of Christ. The only evidence is Spirit filled revelation of the Christ that is in us and the upbuilding of the Body of Christ, by His Spirit and the Holy Spirit and the Spirit of our Father, which is One Baptism, preformed by Christ given us at rebirth.

One full bucket of Grace. Not parts and pieces or being filled and leaking, but we receive it all, one full bucket.
Let us be men in understanding.

1 Corinthians 14:6-20 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine? And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped? For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle? So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air. There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification. Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me. Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church. Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest? For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified. I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue. Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.

No speaking in tongues, that being the evidence of Holy
Spirit baptism, Not, Not, Not, never.

In understanding be men; In Christ: Phillip

I grew up in a Pentecostal church background actually kind of all over the place with denominations anyways I am now currently a Youth Pastor at an Assemblies of God.

According to the 16 Fundmental truths is when you are baptised in the Holy Spirit you WILL speak in tongues. Once God broke through my religious heart I began to search for myself and found that Speaking in Tongues was never evidence of Baptism in the Spirit but rather a gift of the Spirit along with the other Spiritual Gifts.

I have "spoken in tongues" before but can't say it was a genuine move of God baptizing me. Why? because at those times I was clinging to my sin more than ever and still loving it. I found that Baptism of the Holy Spirit can't be identified with Speaking in tongues in a practical way I was a heathen and could speak jibberish with the best of them (no offense to those that speak in tongues) but it wasn't real or authentic because it wasn't backed up with something that I find is the true evidence not only of conversion but of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and that is Radical Freeing from Sin.

Repentance, Conviction, Godly Sorrow, Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Gentleness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Self Control. Baptism will ALWAYS Lead to a Holy, Humble lifestyle before Jesus Christ.

Are there still those that can speak in Tongues for real with these evidences? MOST CERTAINLY But without the things above what is the point of Baptism? Isn't Holy Spirit Baptism just for those reasons above? To live a Godly life Through Christ Jesus is what I seek, I will listen to the Holy Spirit and be obedient to what He says if I don't ever speak in tongues that's fine with me its a gift I am willing to receive if Christ Jesus is glorified through it I most certain don't want to get something and try and trick my brain into thinking I have it while all along I am just speaking jibberish.

One last thing I have noticed a flaw in pushing just this one gift among the Pentecostal movement Many people are only seeking after this gift so they don't feel left out, which to me seems like a poor motive. I know I originally spoke in tongues as a young boy only because my older brother was doing it so I simply followed suit.

When is the Body of Christ going to cry out for the Reality of Jesus rather than the emotionally feel sermons and music to manipulate the masses?

I absolutely believe that the Pentecostal churches have sought after this one gift even perhaps instead of seeking after God's own heart but I know I'm preaching to the choir here (so to speak!!) but this has everything to do with what a person is taught by their preacher / pastor / mentor etc. And if they do not (get out much) and listen to other preachers or teachers (or have a heart to search the scriptures), they won't know any different!

And we CANNOT blame these people or churches, that's God's job. All we can do is lovingly educate and let them know what God has done for us!

Another point I'd like to comment on is the sinful state people are in when they say they have spoken in tongues; as if this somehow disregards God's gift altogether. Now, for the record, I acknowledge that there are false tongues out there but just because a person was in a sinful state does not logically conclude they recieved false tongues!

*** Question*** The Holy Spirit prays what He hears from Jesus so how do we know that God has not taken this opportunity to pray for "you" - to have the Holy Spirit pray over your life and what you have need of from the throne of God; to get you where you need to be? Just saying... it's worth thinking and praying about.

God bless,

I'd like to add one more thing! I know what God has done in my life even while I was yet living like a sinner and speaking in tongues, He didn't condemn me. I do not believe that I am any more special than anyone else, so could it be that He has baptised others in His Holy Spirit and given them the gift of tongues as well?

I was baptised in the Holy Spirit when I was 19 and yes, I spoke in tongues and on and off I lived a life similiar somewhat to what Matt said he lived. When I was forty the perfect storm happened and I backslid for a few years.

I don't know for sure but it seems that God does not look at how perfect or holy a person IS LIVING at that particular time in history and even how holy they are going to stay!!! But rather looks at their heart.

After I returned to the Lord, I went down a list and checked off everything I did wrong, lived wrong, said wrong and asked Him why He gave me the Holy Ghost and I got that verse, "When you ask your Father for a fish, He doesn't give you a stone," and that He didn't regret it because the "gifts of God are without repentance."

It's the goodness of God that leads us to repentance! When we know that we know He loves us beyond measure and that He was good to us in spite of us being us! He is a good God, people!!

Lysa said,

And we CANNOT blame these people or churches, that's God's job. All we can do is lovingly educate and let them know what God has done for us!

Amen! I agree with you, because I have grown up in A/G and Pentecostal churches all my life, and tongues being the evidence was all I ever heard. It's the same thing for many Pentecostals today, especially young preachers; that's what their daddy believed and preached, and that's what his daddy believed and preached so they preach it too.

The problem comes when they make comments like,"if you ain't talked in tongues this week you need to be in this altar!!" Not being concerned with being full of love for their neighbors and enemies or power to witness. Just with if they've spoke in tongues or not.

I know thats not always the case, but like the Corinthian church, we need some men of God to lovingly educate us. To turn our attention from signs and wonders to being conformed to the image of Christ (inside and out).

Pray that God would open all our eyes, so that in our understanding we would be as men!

I appreciate those thoughts Lisa and I agree however in my case I can most ashuredly say I wasn't Baptised in the Holy Spirit.

Something that I have seen happen especially in big churches is that they will have the big bands, high energy, charimatic preacher stir the emotions of the people and people come to be baptised in the Holy Spirit because of the emotional atmosphere rather than having a conviction of wanting to be baptised.

Matthew,

Even though I went to a pentecostal type church, I did not grow up in a church like you described, so forgive me!!

What you wrote reminded me of visiting a church like that years ago (11). I went on a Sunday night and it was great, everything you said... the high energy, the big band and choir and people dancing then I went back the very next Sunday night and it was the exact same high energy music, exact same songs, the exact same people dancing in the aisles and warning bells started going off in my head and I heard the Spirit say, "Pavlov's dogs."

For those who may not know, Ivan Pavlov was a scientist who stumbled upon something with his dogs that you describe, Matt ... Pavlov had food and dogs and he wanted to see when the built in reflex for salivating for food kicked in. He would ring a bell, then show the dog the food and after so many times of practice, he found out that he could just ring the bell without producing any food and the dogs would salivate.

But this is what happens when man depends upon himself instead of allowing the Holy Spirit to lead and being willing to follow.

God bless,

Lisa

TimmyJoe,

You are right, the saying, "if you ain't talked in tongues this week you need to be in this altar!" is sad, very sad.

I do know and believe that if there are not any men of God available to educate you, the Holy Ghost is ready, willing and able to the educating!! (huge grin)

To turn our attention from signs and wonders to being conformed to the image of Christ (inside and out).

I read this and was reminded that it was the LORD who confirmed the word the disciples preached with "signs following!!" It wasn't the disciples, it says that in two or three places explicitly, "the Lord confirmed" (my paraphrase!). We are to obey and be conformed and maybe HE will confirm!! (lol)

God bless you,
Lisa

very interesting article! It makes me think!

Tractsman said,

By The Way, the baptism with fire is for those that are not baptized with the Spirit!

I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean by this statement. If you could please explain i would appreciate it.

The evidence for me would be fruits of the Spirit not the Gifts. Like many i grew up with the "Come to the front if you want to receive the holy spirit with evidence of speaking in tongues" doctrine (Now i realise how strange that is).

But the question i would ask is why many nowadays who profess to have these fruits lack the gifts. I am not a cessationalist and am yet to meet one you can scripturally prove to me the ministration of the holy spirit has ended. Has the Holy Spirit stopped equipping the Church for ministry? What i struggle to understand is the absence of these best gifts from the corporate body. We have drawn a big imaginary line between gifts and fruits. Some of my former strange folk churches stand on the side of gifts others on fruits. But pauls exhortaion is and advocation of spiritual maturity (fruits) in the expression of manifested gifts. The Holy Spirit may gives gifts to the church to empower us to spread the gospel and to help build ourselves up in Christ. The two go hand in hand and are both needed for fruitful ministry.

I man came up to me with his son a few years ago. I was in a real bad state spiritually at the time but was attending a pentecostal church. He said to me "son i was just telling my boy you are christian arent you?" then he said "Just wanted you to know that there was a calling on your life". The man was clearly operating prophetically but as the years unfolded you have know idea how encouraging those words were. I would be in the darkest places in my life and wonder if God could possibly love me (and you) so much that he would go out of his way to tell me so. As much as the devil condemned me i would always remember that random man that walked up to me from nowhere to say thus saith the lord. I dont know what denomination this guy was from but i know in our brief conversation its was him yeilding to his gifts that allowed him to come up and speak to me with words that would change my life forever. He put himself on the spot with his son present to say thus saith the lord, he stepped out in faith and new it wasnt his imagination speaking to him.

His gift brought edification to me. His words were seeds sown that helped shape me.

Where the Spirit is there is power=dunamis. Power to change from our sinful nature and be transformed to the image of Christ(fruits) and Power to effectively witness to the world and to each other(gifts). so for me the evidence is both because if only one is present these days it points to demonically inspired charismania or human effort to be like Christ not powered by the Spirit (Should a Holy Ghost filled church have a higher divorce rate than the Buddhists. Does Buddha have more practical instruction for a happy matrimony than Christ? Whats wrong who stole all our joy? We dont suffer as much as the early church but they had more joy than us, why?)

But the question i would ask is why many nowadays who profess to have these fruits lack the gifts.

That's a good question rainman! I believe a person has to desire to have spiritual gifts if God is going to give them to them (obviously not in all cases though). But He is a rewarder of them who diligently seek Him, and I believe so many don't seek spiritual gifts because they are afraid of what they have seen in so called "spirit-filled" churches (abuse of tongues, false prophecy, strange manifestations, etc...). But I do believe we should desire and earnestly seek these gifts for ministry today!

"Every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation (change)" (James. 1:17).

O that we would strive to see the fruits of the Holy Spirit in our life and earnestly seek these wonderful gifts that Christ has provided for His church!

A good portion of the Spiritual Gifts are Spiritual Fruit :) We are to seek the greater gifts which is Faith, Hope and Love. Paul gives us a list of the Spiritual gifts and then at the end of the chapter says Desire the greater gifts and then he said I will show you the most excellent way and then goes into a talk about the famous Love chapter of 1st Corinthians 13. I believe Love is the greatest gift and we are to earnestly seek this gift as Christians. Because if I can speak in the tongues of men and angels but don't have love what exactly is the point? or at least I think this is what Paul is getting at.

My biggest thing is looking at my life and walk with the Lord and then looking at what Paul calls Love I am still in need of Grace to see this gift fully developed in my heart and being. All other gifts are powerless and pointless without Love and are futile to seek after if Love isn't there.

I would agree with you to an extent. Love and spiritual maturity are more important than gifts. We are told to follow in the way of love or simply "Walk in the Spirit" but I would like to emphasize on the point paul was making by looking at his exposition in his own words. There will be many people who read this post and think “okay I should love and forget the rest” so I would like to go beyond the religious platitudes of the traditions of men and examine pauls own conclusions and I am sure were wrong the Spirit himself will rectify so here goes.

In his letter to the Corinthians 1 Corinthians 12:7-12 Paul lists the different ministrations of the spirit

1 Corinthians 12:7-12 (New International Version)

7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the
Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by
The same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers,
To another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,
[a] and to still another the interpretation of tongues.[b] 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit,
and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.
12 The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts;
and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ.

[notice that love is not mentioned in the context of gifts paul is referring to.]

In Paul's exhortation in 1 Co 14 he focuses on prophesy as a gift to be desired and coveted.

1 Co 14:1

"Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy."

that in a nutshell is Paul concluding chapters 12 and 13 with a practical exhortation for us to follow. Paul makes emphasis on the gift of prophesy as the
kind of gift we should earnestly seek. If fact in his conclusion in Chapter 14 his focus is on tongues, interpretation, and prophesy not love and faith as gifts to be coveted. So I would disagree with you as love is not in the same context of gifts paul mentions.
Paul is correcting abuse of gifts that occurred because people weren’t really walking in the spirit(love, peace, meekness) they had become focused more on the gifts than the giver. So he tells them to get back to walking in the Spirit if they want to be zealous for spiritual gifts they should seek such gifts like prophesy [Notice he doesn't exhort them to seek the gift of love].
and as we can see in 1 co 14 he devotes his time to explaining why prophesy is much better for the church than tongues if there is no interpretation of tongues and no order.

I agree to the extent that the gift(and promise) of the holy spirit is what enables us to love in the first place. And that this love is available to all truly converted believers. But put into context the gifts described in chapter 12 where gifts the Holy Spirit gave to whoever he pleased for the edification of the church. Love is not a gift the Holy Spirit gives to whoever he pleases(charity is a gift but this is not the same context as the love of God we are all expected to have) its something made available to all who will yield by walking in the spirit.

The power to love is present in all regenerated believers. Believers have the free will to walk in the spirit or walk in the flesh as evidenced by what was happening in Corinth.
So looking at the context of gifts that Paul was referring to we can see clearly that the gifts he was alluding to were gifts that the recipient had no influence in obtaining (other than asking for them in the first place). That’s why love(the love of God not charity) would be out of context to what Paul was talking about as it would imply the Spirit gives the gift of love to whom he pleases, but this is not the case.

1 Co 14:1

"Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy."

"And now I will show you the most excellent way."

He makes the arguments that the gifts of the spirit are temporal in a sense. As the Spirit is the earnest of our inheritance we experience in part the kingdom of God now.

1 Corinthians 13:12-13 (New International Version)

"12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love."

The gifts of the spirit will cease but love will endure eternally. In order to effectively manifest the ministrations of the spirit we must walk in the spirit. By walking in the spirit we begin to know God deeper and deeper and like Pauls says we are known of God(more important). Paul isn’t saying forget the gifts of the spirit and love each other. In his own words he is saying in conclusion

1 Co 14:1

"Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy."

Love is a higher way but most assuredly but gifts of ministration are required for effective ministration. We can demonstrate love to an unbeliever and they might be curious and come to church, they might even come to the front for a popeish declaration of being saved. But unless the spirit does a work of regeneration it is useless. Love may have got the body in the seat but without a Holy Spirit gift of teaching from the pulpit and around such a person can this new believer have any root within himself?
-edited for clarity

Paul summarises and drives his point home

1 Corinthians 14:38-40 (King James Version)

38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

40 Let all things be done decently and in order.

Scripture interprets scripture and like was mentioned on another thread exposition is often done for us within the body of the word itself. I dont think paul meant in chapter 13 that we are to desire the gift of love because love is a fruit that requires are yielding before it manifests in maturity. Chapter 13 isnt saving love is the gift you should seek because that contradicts his conclusion in 14 where he says to follow the way of charity AND to seek the best spiritual gifts and then he goes on to on in length in chapter 14 to talk about prophesy as the gift they should be seeking. So while i would agree that walking in the spirit is ultimately more important than speaking in tongues. My conclusion is desire the giver of the gifts and walk in the spirit and the fruits will be evident but also desire and covet the best gifts for the edification of the body of christ. I have seen Penetecostals (formerly one myself) read 1 co 12 and stop in chapter 12 and form a doctrine of charismatic excess. The current church i am for years would stop in chapter 13 and say its all about love and that love is ultimately better than gifts. But i believe the Holy Spirit wants us to read on from 12 and 13 to 14 where paul is making his concluding exortations on the matter of spiritual gifts (phyoo-mat-ik-os')

ps: just a passing observation if the lord was to return this hour would he find a church filled with love and faithfullness? If divorce is so high as it in the body can we honestly claim to actaully be walking in love?

timmy said,

O that we would strive to see the fruits of the Holy Spirit in our life and earnestly seek these wonderful gifts that Christ has provided for His church!

amen

lets walk in love and desire the gifts of the spirit

ps: just a passing observation if the lord was to return this hour would he find a church filled with love and faithfullness? If divorce is so high as it in the body can we honestly claim to actaully be walking in love?

Amen

May the Lord open our eyes to this great need in the church today! That the love of God would be shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost and that they would know we're His disciples because we love one another.

It is so interesting all the verse's that tell us to love each other!

A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. John 13:34

By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." John 13:35

Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves. Rom.12:10

Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. Rom. 13:8

...serve one another in love. Galatians 5:13

Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. Ephesians 4:2

And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. Hebrews 10:24

Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from the heart. 1Peter 1:22

Finally, all of you, live in harmony with one another; be sympathetic, love as brothers, be compassionate and humble. 1Peter 3:8

Greet one another with a kiss of love. Peace to all of you who are in Christ. 1Peter 5:14

This is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another. 1John 3:11

And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 1John 3:23

Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 1John 4:7

Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 1John 4:11

I ask that we love one another. 2John 1:5

And I'm sure there are many many more! But it is astounding how much we are exhorted to LOVE, and yet how little we seem to really strive at doing it! May the Lord help us!

"May the Lord make your love increase and overflow for each other and for everyone else, just as ours does for you." 1Thessalonians 3:12

How very interesting are these responses to the post you have written. I too have listed in my notes such experiences of people who have experience the Baptism in the Holy Spirit. However, I also have found for example, in the Wesleyan history, many testimonies of people receiving the second blessing, entire sanctification, labeled as such any way. There are also those who will say they experienced the baptism and then later had another experience of the cross, or a Romans 7 crises and so forth. I see also, how responses such as the one from scottish warrior (don't remember your name there) who refer to the sermon on the mount type of spiritual life - which indeed I completely agree with - and others who chime in the same way, and yet do not seem to deny or accept sanctification experiences, baptism, tongues and so forth. I am saying all this to say, I believe God does all of these things, but I cannot say I can truly label them. I know things he has done for me, after spending decades in thinking there could be no such experiences. Anyway, how great it would be to collaborate in writing some kind of newsletter dedicated to this new covenant life...abundant life Christ promised, without having doctrinal duals in the midst of it - which I am sure the enemy spends much time working on. I believe we are heading in the last days and evil times....and that God is preparing us all for this time to come...perhaps this is why this web site exists? I must say, as it seems I must always qualify this, that I myself am not referring to super-christian categories or trying to lift one above others and so forth; that is not the point here. However, if God does indeed grant sanctifying experiences to his people, I believe we should desire to know more of His heart and Word on these things.

God Bless,
Mkal

Thanks for the post Mkal. You said,

I also have found for example, in the Wesleyan history, many testimonies of people receiving the second blessing, entire sanctification, labeled as such any way.

Yea, I've read some of those testimonies too, and alot of the Salvation Army and Holiness believers testify to such experiences. So it's hard to label everything (sanctification, baptism, filled, etc..) but like my pastor says, "A man with an experience will outlast a man with an argument any day."

if God does indeed grant sanctifying experiences to his people, I believe we should desire to know more of His heart and Word on these things.

Amen, amen, amen! Let us seek all that God offers us in His word, and not let the "strange experiences" of some who claim to be "Spirit-filled" hinder us in this pursuit!

God is our Father, and He will not give us a serpent if we ask for a fish!

mkal wrote:

I see also, how responses such as the one from scottish warrior (don't remember your name there) who refer to the sermon on the mount type of spiritual life - which indeed I completely agree with - and others who chime in the same way, and yet do not seem to deny or accept sanctification experiences, baptism, tongues and so forth. I am saying all this to say, I believe God does all of these things, but I cannot say I can truly label them. I know things he has done for me, after spending decades in thinking there could be no such experiences.

It is interesting how we often try to categorize things and make lists of things that can be "checked off" as we accomplish them. Maybe these are the "labels" you are referring to?

There are a few things I can see very clearly laid out in scripture. To enter the kingdom of heaven we all must be born again and it is a spiritual rebirth. If we have been born again, there will be fruit in our lives as evidence of that rebirth. Not immediate perfection, but fruit. The second is that Jesus sent to us the comforter (parakletos or the one who comes alongside us), the Holy Spirit. He desires to baptize us in the Holy Spirit separate from and subsequent to salvation as revealed throughout the book of Acts. This baptism will also yield fruit in our lives. Not perfection, but fruit. We see in the book of Acts that people who are baptized in the Holy Spirit have many different signs that often follow them. Speaking in tongues, praying in tongues, healings, words of knowledge, etc.. If we are looking for evidence, I am not sure we can boil it down to one thing or another, but to a life transformed before our very eyes by the power of God, to a life of power in God, of intimacy with God, of dependence on God, of holiness, and we could go on and on...
I have seen God do mighty things through me and have stood back amazed and bewildered that He would use me in such a way. I have also seen God chastize me in such a way as to bring me to my knees in repentance as He works out of me my own self and into me His character and nature. All evidences of the active working of the Holy Spirit in my life. Oh how I love Him. Oh how I am thankful for His Holy Spirit sent to abide in me.

Have not read previous posts...just responding to the original.

Timmy

Awesome! I received what I would call a baptism in the Holy Ghost a few years back. I want to again. I am sure I need it. There were no tongues for me even though I was told I needed to pray for them. I don't know what tongues are, and it is not important to me (I have studied the subject, a great deal, though). I heard Duncan Campbell's testimony and studied up on the subject a pretty good bit.

I tried to convince others that you didn't have to have tongues, necessarily; and what I found is that it really did not matter. People need God; saved or unsaved. To me preaching about the baptism of the Spirit to believers is like preaching about Christ to sinners. Some are attracted, some are offended. Like the gospel, what happens after someone hears is between them and God. When one receives this mighty experience of God, who am I to say what God will or won't do. Like a preacher I know said once: it doesn't matter if a man leaps 10 feet in the air during a church service and does 3 back flips; watch where he goes when he hits the ground.

I can't really say a bunch because my prayer life and evangelism are so much less than they used to be. But when I think about the baptism of the Holy Ghost, something wells up in me like a storm. I love to hear testimonies like what you have posted. Some other good ones are J. Edwin Orr and C L Culpepper.

I am new to SI so I am not really sure if I am doing this right. However, this is a subject that I have wrestled with myself. I grew up in a Pentecostal church where tongues is said to be the evidence, but after reading scripture and testimonies of men I would esteem to be men of God, I began to question this. The only scripture that clearly states what will happen after the baptism is received is Acts 1:8 "But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you." Is this not the purpose of the baptism? To receive the power from God to do what we ourselves cannot do. I believe that you are not baptized in the Holy Ghost because you speak in tongues but rather you speak in tongues because you are baptized in the Holy Ghost. All in all, just seek God! Cry out for greater manifestations of His Spirit. I believe it was in a book by A.W. Tozer that I read "no one has ever been baptized in the Holy Spirit and not known it." So shut yourself in with God and don't get up believing in faith that God has done something, but rather dont get up until you know that God has done something.

http://wiki.biblebase.com/index.php?title=G_W_North_Writings

choose pdf files and download a file called "Initial Evidence; An Examination of the true evidence of baptism in the Spirit G.W.North"

I personally see the Baptism in the Holy Spirit as a vital part of Christianity without which the life of Christ cannot be lived out. Yet, the fruit of this Baptism will be the burning heart of Christ beating in believers and seen in their sanctification. If we are not becoming more like Jesus as we progress in our walk then we have to look criticaly at our walk and see where we are. The questions for me would be " Is Jesus your grand obsession?" And , " Can you say , I have no King but Jesus?"

You are going to the core of the matter -- Christ --- and not just the exaltation of an experience or blessing which can be real and authentic but can be lost and we rely on feelings and not on the Word of God our Rock.

I think that the parable of the Vine is a good illustrtion of what it means to have a personal intimate relationship with Jesus Christ, our source of life and sanctification.

I just want to emphasize that after we are born again we receive the Holy Spirit who comes to indwell in us and to sanctify us as we keep an intimate relationship with Jesus.

It is the same Spirit that can empower us for service, it is the work of the Spirit to anoint us and give us power to witness.

Termes sometimes can confuse us, christians from different denominations describe the Holy Ghost power or baptism in different terms and words but the result is the same: they are filled with Holy Ghost and have power for service and their life has been completely trasformed by Christ.

Paul prayed for the believers who were baptised wih the Holy Spirit that Christ may be formed in them. This is a process to be more and more like Christ in our character and in takes time and a constant dying to self that Christ may live in us. There is nowhere in the letters of the apostles, any specific instructions about initial evidences of the Holy Ghost baptism. To be honest, even the theological term of the Baptism of the Holy Ghost after regeneration is not substantially supported in the New Testament. I dont mean its not possible, but im not sure it's theologically correct to use the term to refer to a post conversion(born again) experience.

I have always been sure of one thing, that many godly men mightly used by God to bring many to Christ had a post conversion experience of the infilling of the Holy Spirit that changed their lives for better.

"If you abide in Me and I abide in you, you shall bare much fruit".....the secret of a fruitful ministry.

The branch can do nothing without the Vine. Jesus in me,ruling as King at the center of my heart/soul.

No personal pentecost without the experience of the cross, no power without purity of heart. The person filled with the Spirit is he who has died to self to live for Christ. We have to much talk about the power of the Holy Spirit but very little about the message of the cross and purity of heart and life. The two are indispensable but unfortunatly there is no balance between the cross and pentecost, or purity and power.

Blessings,
Redi

Snufalagapus (can I call you Snuf?) asks
"but what is the immediate reaction that follow after one has JUST received the Spirit?"

Can I testify what my initial experience was. I received faith from God. I discovered faith within me, and found that I could believe God, that I did believe Him.
Before that, I was trying so hard to be a christian. Trying to be like the other christians in the church, who had something wonderful. I worshipped like them, I sang like them, I prophesied and preached in the church, and God had given me the gift of tongues.
But I did not know God or Jesus Christ personally, and without anyone in the church knowing, I was living in terrible sin.
God separated me from the church and my family and brought me to France where there are no christians for hundreds of miles around that I know of. Then He started drawing me to himself, showed me the awefulness of my sin in His sight, showed me Jesus, His son, the only one acceptable to Him. I said Yes to Him, and I found mysef in Christ. Faith had come, I was a child of God.

"But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ" Gal 3:23-27

David

Does anyone know evan robert's testimony?

How could anyone know that the Spirit of Christ has been born again in them? We cannot see it, we don't feel it, it is what happened at Pentecost but no one knew it. That is why Paul was chosen by God to bring this mystery to light. John said it plainly, He who comes will baptize you with the Holy Spirit. If We have Christ in us, He has baptized us into the Holy Spirit. Salvation by Christ in you the Hope of Glory sent by the Incorruptable Seed of the Father. Now that we have the Spirit of Christ in us, and He has baptized us into the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit can do the work Christ sent Him to do. The Holy Spirit will convict us of sin, show us the Christ in us, show us the Father by the Christ in us and begin the process of sanctification and Justification by wisdom and redemption.

John 14, 15,16, 17 all tell us what the Holy Spirit as Another Comforter will accomplish in our lives. Our primary Comforter is Christ in us the Hope of Glory, the Power to know this truth comes from the "Another Comforter".

How it is manifested or comes forth in the believer is not the litmus for receiving our salvation which has all these attributes in it, but by Faith we believe it and that Faith is the true manifestation and the only true test that cannot be counterfeited of receiving the wonderful gifts of the Spirit of Christ birthed in us and the Holy Spirit now Baptized in us and not just with us.

This is that Faith which has come; Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

1 Corinthians 12:12-14 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many.

In Christ: Phillip