John 20:23

The question is about the last part of that verse. Is he suggesting that there are times in which we should retain someone's sins? The answer is NO.
We should always forgive no matter what.
Mat 6:15 But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.
So every time you read John 20:23, remember Mat 6:15
That clause "if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained" is given as a WARNING so that you WON'T do it.

Classically the Roman Catholic church has claimed that this is priestly authority which was given originally to the apostles and then passed on in 'apostolic succession' by the laying of hands of people in a direct line from Peter.

The Episcopalians tend to 'pronounce the absolution' rather than take the authority themselves. They 'declare' forgiveness for those who fulfil the conditions for forgiveness.

I have some thoughts but I do think this is a difficult verse. It may be helpful to remember that this was written some 60 years after the event by John who also has this statement in his letter...

"If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it." 1 John 5:16

I think this reflects the era in which John writes, at the end of the apostolic age. There is no hint inJohn's letter of special powers for apostles or anyone else. Most evangelical commentators link this with the 'sending' of the previous verse and then see the effective 'releasing or retaining' of sins as being the result of the hearers' response to that gospel.

I have some thoughts but I do think this is a difficult verse...There is no hint here of special powers for apostles or anyone else.

I agree that this passage is difficult and it has been debated over for a long, long time. However, I do believe that Jesus here commissioned His Apostles to go preach the gospel as He had preached it. I believe that He also is giving them a peculiar authority and power to [i]declare[/i] who's sins are forgiven and who's are not forgiven.

I believe that is exactly what the Apostles did as a simple reading of the Book of Acts will reveal. When Peter said, "repent ye, and be converted..." and Paul said, "to you is the word of salvation sent" and "through this man is preached forgiveness of sins, and by him all that beleieve are justified" , they were opening with authority the door of salvation so that sinners would enter in.

On the other hand, I do not believe that this passage sanctions absolution or private confession as some might believe it does. I beleieve that kind of thinking robs Christ of his authority as sole Mediator between God and men.

Whatever you believe this passage teaches, I think it is clear that every minister should tremble at the deep sense of importance that comes with his office.

In Christ,

Ron

Thanks Ron, I am with you on this.

I have wondered too at the significance of this event only recorded by John.

"Then, the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them, “Peace be with you.”
John 20:20 When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord.
John 20:21 So Jesus said to them again, “Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.”
John 20:22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
John 20:23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”" John 20:19–23 NKJV

This event seems to synchronise with Luke 24:36. At that time he specifically opened the understanding of the apostles so that they could understand the scriptures. Luke 24:45. I have long associated this special enduement of the Spirit with this authoritative interpretation of the scripture which was given to the apostles. This would then link strongly with the 'loosing and retaining' mentioned in Matt 18:18. Scribes had authority to fix a meaning of scripture and thereby they defined orthodoxy and righteousness. I think in the context of Matt 18 this really has nothing to so with the contemporary understanding of 'binding spirits' but does convey authority of interpretation. In that sense to have authority to interpret scripture authoritatively would effectively define 'sin' in some circumstances.

I think we sometimes forgot the unique role that the apostles had in faithfully expounding scripture with a special inspiration which is unlike that of a contemporary preacher. This enduement of the Spirit would then not be a pointer to Pentecost as is sometimes suggested but a distinct and unique empowering of the apostles for their unique role as witnesses.

I am not robbing God of his authority if he gave that authority to me.

That is certainly true but unless you were in the upper room this authority has not been given to you.

RonaldGoetz wrote:

With the multitude of scriptures dealing with forgiveness, it is interesting that you believe this one does not apply to us.

That seems rather arbitrary to me. Very selective.

Thats funny. Isn't that what I and a bunch of other people were saying about you and your Luke 17:34-36 homosexual thread?

Funny how when it fits your agenda, you support using scripture arbitrarily (wrongly I may ad), and when your agenda isn't supported, the rest of us are Pharisee.

Another clear sign... Mark and avoid.

2 Peter 2:1-3 (NKJV)

But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.

Ronald,

When you speak against the word of the Lord, you will be challanged. When you contradict yourself, you will be challanged. When you you twist scripture in order to deceive others, you will be challanged. When you call others out for the same exact thing that you do, you will be challanged. When you say that the teachings and the Word of the Lord is "absurd" you will be challanged.

Ronald, I fear for your soul greatly. The Lord has used many on Sermonindex to show you your errors, and you refuse to budge. I decern that you are here for reasons other then truth, and you have proven such through your own written words.

But what I truly fear is the Lord. I will stand before Him on judgement day. I will give account on how I dealt with everything, including you. I will also give account about staying quite when you are spreading lies about the Lord. Others can believe you if they wish, to their own destruction, but they will have to do it through my protest.

Back when I was unsaved, I'm sure that we would have been good friends. I pray that the Lord shows you the errors of your ways, and we can be friends for eternity together, before our Lord. Until the truth resides in you, and you cease teaching your errors as truth, we will be as light and darkness.

First of all this is what the word says about what was received in the upper room:

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call.

This promise holds true for all believers today, not just for a select few.

There were many more than just the twelve in the upper room on the day of pentecost. Is God still calling men. The promise is for as many as the Lord our God shall call. Can we deny that men are still being called?

2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Now about remmitting and retaining sins. I have had this much in my thoughts lately as well. Here is what the Lord showed me:

Luk 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon [God], and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

2Ti 4:16 At my first answer no man stood with me, but all [men] forsook me: [I pray God] that it may not be laid to their charge.

Jhn 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; [and] whose soever [sins] ye retain, they are retained.

Vines Dictionary says of this word remit:
signifies "to send away, set free;" also "to let alone,"

Mat 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

We certainly have the power to forgive sins, if we don't we have the consequences stated here in Matthew 6:15. Not the sort of thing we need to be disobedient to.

1Jo 4:17 ¶ Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
19 We love him, because he first loved us.
20 ¶ If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

Luk 11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.
Luk 11:4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.

Mat 6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

This is what that word debtors means in the Strongs Concordence in the greek:

1) one who owes another, a debtor

a) one held by some obligation, bound by some duty

b) one who has not yet made amends to whom he has injured:

1) one who owes God penalty or whom God can demand punishment as something due, i.e. a sinner

Mat 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Jesus, our example, forgave sins and riled up the religious folks of His day while he walked the earth. He has told us to go and do likewise. When we forgive those who sin against us, we are following His command and those sins are forgiven.

-Quote-Ronald
9) We have a difficult time realizing that God gave us the same authority to forgive sins--even in the absence of people's repentance.

10) If I am interacting with someone living in sin, I forgive them, and focus on loving them. I don't focus on "getting them to repent."

11) Don't get me wrong. Repentance is important. But I leave the timing and the content of people's sanctification to God. I don't determine the timing and the content of people's sanctification.

12) I find I have my hands full with my own sanctification and repentance, without taking responsibility for other people's sanctification and repentance.

13) God may give other people the ministry of calling people to repentance. Remember, there is a diversity of gifts and callings. Not all of us are called to do the same thing.
-Quote-

Some of your writing is agreeable (Satan can also disguise himself as an angel of light) but after also reading another thread where you misrepresented Jesus by implying that He approves of what is an abomination in his sight. I have applied to you on this thread as you seem to have no fear in approving what God does not approve.

There is only one Mediator between God and man, the Man Christ Jesus (1 Tim. 2:5-6). No other man has ever been worthy to give His life as a ransom for others. No other ransom has ever been acceptable to God. Christ Jesus alone is worthy and acceptable to die as a ransom for someone else. He alone is the Perfect Man. Therefore...
only Christ can forgive and judge sins.

John 20:23 (KJV) Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

There are two things we can know for sure about its meaning.

No man can forgive another man's sins.

Believers can proclaim that a man's sins are forgiven if he receives Christ (John 1:12).
Believers can also proclaim that a man's sins are not forgiven if he does not receive Christ.

The authority that Jesus gives is through the power of the Holy Spirit so therefore the apostle can only speak and do as the Spirit leads him. The true apostle will not speak what the Lord didn’t reveal to his spirit as being acceptable.

We must forgive others quickly when they wrong us in any way but no one has the authority to forgive sins against God but only God himself. We can only declare what He has told us concerning the good news to everyone concerning repentance and remission of sins through the Lord Jesus Christ.

It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Lord after having trampled on the blood of His Son by sinning willfully and that also means to tell someone else their sins are forgiven when they are still sinning willfully. One is trampling on the blood of Christ when you sin willfully and how much worse do you thing it will be to those who tell someone their sins are forgiven who are still sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth.

Hebrews 10:26-31 (KJV) 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (ESV) 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Be not high-minded but fear God and make sure we don’t tell someone that Jesus approves of something that is an abomination in his sight.

Blessings in Christ!

It sounds as though you're saying that this scripture doesn't apply to us today. I'm doing my best to hear Christ's words and obey them, building my house on a rock.

With the multitude of scriptures dealing with forgiveness, it is interesting that you believe this one does not apply to us.

You cannot arbitrarily take verses of scripture and 'claim' them. This passage of scripture has a historic time and space context with unique individuals. It was never repeated. If you try to 'claim' such powers you it will result in powerful self-deception.

Jesus, our example, forgave sins and riled up the religious folks of His day while he walked the earth. He has told us to go and do likewise. When we forgive those who sin against us, we are following His command and those sins are forgiven.

this is certainly true and important. However our earlier references to the upper room relate to the time after his resurrection but before he ascended into heaven. It is not particular sins against myself that are under consideration here but rather some kind of general authority.

HI Elizabeth
I joined up a long time ago when nick-names were all the thing. I wish I hadn't got one myself now... still...

I think it is true that to forgive releases the forgiven but I don't think the John 20 event has that in mind. The context is their 'sending' and the they were instructed to 'receive the Spirit'. I think that setting makes it unlikely that we are talking about individual sins and individual forgivenesses.

I think it is true that to forgive releases the forgiven but I don't think the John 20 event has that in mind. The context is their 'sending' and the they were instructed to 'receive the Spirit'. I think that setting makes it unlikely that we are talking about individual sins and individual forgivenesses.

What about the verses I cited about not laying this sin to their charge, and Father forgive them because they know not what they do. Individuals have asked the Father to not hold a sin against them when they were sinned against. Hey I certainly don't believe these prayers will totally exhonorate them, as they have plenty of sins piled up that nobody asked them to be forgiven for, but we can ask that those against us personally will be forgiven, then we will be forgiven as well, what a trade.

What about the verses I cited about not laying this sin to their charge, and Father forgive them because they know not what they do. Individuals have asked the Father to not hold a sin against them when they were sinned against.

There are two aspects of forgiveness which need to be examined. In fact there are two different words in the Greek (in fact there are 3!) which are both translated by the English word forgive... but not consistently. I sometimes think it might have been better if we had not used the word 'forgive' but two other words instead.

What is forgiven? the sinner or his sin. The Bible words deal with both.

forgiveness of sins really touches both the 'sinner' and the 'sin'.

sins can be 'remitted' or 'released'. This is a picture from the Day of Atonement when the sins of the nation were confessed over the scape goat which was then chased into the wilderness carrying away the sins of the nation.

the sinner himself is showed 'favour'. God shows himself to be propitious to the offender.

We can operate in both these realms too in a limited sense. If someone sins against me I can 'release' his sins in the sense of 'letting them go'. I don't carry the record. As 1 Cor 13 says 'love keeps no record of sins'.

But I need to be reconciled to the sinner too.

There is an example of these two aspects of sin in 2 Cor where Paul, apparently speaking of the immoral man mentioned in 1 Corinthians,when he says "Therefore I urge you to reaffirm your love to him." 2 Cor 2:8 NKJV

The sin is remitted, released and the 'sinner' is shown grace.

Thanks for posting this thread the topic came up yesterday in bible study and left me confused. i personally think the context of verse 23 is the disciples being sent into the world. Either way the sins of the sinners would be remitted.

1 Was the remission based on the gospel being shared? If so how was it they were able to not "remit" as they were instructed to share the gospel with "all men".

2 Did they receive special authority to forgive sin?

I must admit that the proclamation that God has forgiven those who believe seems the most highly plausible. But the structure of the language Jesus was using doesn't seem to point to that without me reading into the scripture what it doesn't say. the bit that says who they do not forgive will not be forgiven doesn't reconcile with "preach the gospel to all men".

3 When Jesus would heal someone he atimes said "your sins are forgiven you" Jesus would make this proclamation to those he had released from the bondage or consequences of mans fallen state (disease ,possessions etc) could this be the context Jesus was alluding to. Was he saying he had delegated authority to the disciples to remit / release and set free men from bondage in the same miraculous manner he did using his name?

I need a bit more clarity on this one.

rainman
I think we all acknowledge that this is a difficult portion of scripture and consequently we should not be surprised that we are having a struggle with it. I have read fairly widely, in the commentaries, on this passage and have not found a commentator who seems able to give a persuasive answer. We are all speculating to a certain extent.

However we can, as the police might say, eliminate some suspects. The event is so time, person and place specific that I cannot think that this is a general authority given to all Christians. Whatever this was, it seems to be, was very specific.

For me the most comfortable area is still in the connecting this with that Matt 18 passages which speaks of 'binding and releasing'. This, as I mentioned, was one of the functions of the scribes. They defined and determined 'sin' and by that means could 'release' some from what had been seen as sin. They also had the power of defining and determining 'sin' so that by their identification of what was 'sin' and what was not they effectively ''retained" and "released". That goes part of the way, IMHO, but like you I think there is more to see and say... but as yet I don't see it and can't say it. ;-)

Sometimes we have to be prepared to leave passages of scripture for another time. I have a 'back burner' where some passages have been simmering for decades. Occasionally one will come to the boil...

RonG

It has already been noted that Jesus forgave individuals without their prior repentance. The person brought to him on a mat and the person let down through the roof did not repent before Jesus forgave their sin.

I believe there is something about people hearing that their sins are forgiven, without them having to do or say anything, that frees them internally to receive the working of God's spirit within them.

"He who covers his sins will not prosper, But whoever confesses and forsakes them will have mercy." Prov 28:13 NKJV

The sins of someone who intends to continue in that sin cannot be forgiven.

"When Jesus had raised Himself up and saw no one but the woman, He said to her, “Woman, where are those accusers of yours? Has no one condemned you?” 11 She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said to her, “Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more.”" John 8:10–11 NKJV

'go and sin no more' is always implied in forgiveness.

Jesus forgave the paralytic's sins without the paralytic's repentance of anything

There is a history maxim which says 'absence of evidence is not evidence of absence'. It is an important truth. You cannot argue for the absence of something just because it isn't mentioned in the document.

Was this man unwilling to be brought to the feet of Jesus? Did he scream and protest all the way to the roof? He did not have the physical ability to get to Christ but there is nothing to indicate his unwillingness.

Further, there is room for asking the question 'when Christ saw their faith... how many persons did he see exercising faith? It is usually presumed that it refers to the 4 who brought him, there is nothing in the grammar to say it wasn't the faith of all five of them.

Love covers over a multitude of sins. If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven.

without his consent or knowledge?

It's simple. Upon presenting Christ and the person receives, we do [by the Holiness of God] have the authority to unequivocally reckon a person's sins "remitted" or all gone. In other words, we can tell them, "You're Saved and Forgiven!"

Simple enough!

///EDIT///

Then if a person rejects that same Gospel Plan, their sins do remain to bring them into the fullness of the judgment.

Ron G
"But the end of all things is at hand; therefore be serious and watchful in your prayers. 8 And above all things have fervent love for one another, for “love will cover a multitude of sins.”" 1 Pet 4:7–8 NKJV

Love will cover a multitude of sins but God's love is holy love and he will not impose 'forgiveness' upon anyone. We know from experience that it is just as possible for someone to refuse 'forgiveness' and the breach remains.

"But the end of all things is at hand; therefore be serious and watchful in your prayers. 8 And above all things have fervent love for one another, for “love will cover a multitude of sins.”" 1 Pet 4:7–8 NKJV

"But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins”—then He said to the paralytic, “Arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.”" Matt 9:6 NKJV

Here we have a plain testimony that 'the son of man' has authority on earth to 'remit sins'. He demonstrated this authority by healing the man otherwise, quite rightly, no one would have taken him seriously. Inbuilt in this statement of Christ is a very clear implication that others do not have authority on earth to forgive sins and that includes you.

If someone sins against you certainly you have the authority to forgive them and must. Is someone sins against me you have no authority to forgive them. If someone sins against God you have no authority to forgive them.

Someone needs a Theology check.

It's simple. Upon presenting Christ and the person receives, we do [by the Holiness of God] have the authority to unequivocally reckon a person's sins "remitted" or all gone. In other words, we can tell them, "You're Saved and Forgiven!"

Simple enough!

Then if a person rejects that same Gospel Plan, their sins do remain to bring them into the fullness of the judgment. If someone sins against God you have no authority to forgive them.

Well said My Friend! Well Said!

Consider John Gill:

John 20:23

Whose soever sins ye remit
God only can forgive sins, and Christ being God, has a power to do so likewise; but he never communicated any such power to his apostles; nor did they ever assume any such power to themselves, or pretend to exercise it; it is the mark of antichrist, to attempt anything of the kind; who, in so doing, usurps the divine prerogative, places himself in his seat, and shows himself as if he was God: but this is to be understood only in a doctrinal, or ministerial way, by preaching the full and free remission of sins, through the blood of Christ, according to the riches of God's grace, to such as repent of their sins, and believe in Christ; declaring, that all such persons as do so repent and believe, all their sins are forgiven for Christ's sake: and accordingly,

they are remitted unto them;
in agreement with Christ's own words, in his declaration and commission to his disciples; see ( Mark 16:16 ) ( Luke 24:47 ) . On the other hand he signifies, that

whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained:
that is, that whatsoever sins ye declare are not forgiven, they are not forgiven; which is the case of all final unbelievers, and impenitent sinners; who dying without repentance towards God, and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, according to the Gospel declaration, shall be damned, and are damned; for God stands by, and will stand by and confirm the Gospel of his Son, faithfully preached by his ministering servants; and all the world will sooner or later be convinced of the validity, truth, and certainty, of the declarations on each of these heads, made by them.

RonaldGoetz wrote:
I believe the real "difficulty" is internal to us, that we are inclined NOT to forgive sin, or even want to, but rather enjoy the role of gatekeeper, controlling who gets in and doesn't.
-------
brother Ron,

I think you hit human nature on the head and God have mercy on those who can't admit it. I have been on both sides of this preverbal fence; condemning and judging others but not condemning and judging my fornicating self. Then I was fortunate enough to backslide (hindsight speaking) and I try to always go with mercy first and second and even third now. (Sadly) there are still several Christians who knew me before backsliding, (who wrote me off while I was backslid), still know me and when I see them I see contempt in their eyes and they won't forgive me in the name of righteous indignation. (edit: Which doesn't help me forgive myself... so we can forgive others I think).

I believe with all my heart those things we have righteously declared unforgivable that at the judgment seat of Christ we will give an account for.

(So what), it is no skin off of my nose if a person who just came in slding under the door still gets the same reward (a penny) and I slave away all day the sun! (I think we are going to have to give an account of why we truly do care (check yourself and see whether you be in the faith or not!) that the worldly and those we deem not worthy of God's reward... that they are getting eternal life as we are! (For the record, I do not presume to know who is getting "in" and who "isn't.")

(edit: Had it not been for the Lord on my side; where oh where would I be??? Had it not been for the Lord on these other people's side, where oh where would they be? /edit)

(edit: Please do not presume to think that I think every homosexual, prostitute, drug addict, wife beater is getting in and getting our same reward... I know that some of these are though!!! You cannot deny Luke 14.1-23;(well some can!) I can NOT assume to know who He will fill His house with and if you are honest, neither can any of the rest of us. /edit)

God bless you brother.
Lysa

Ps I'm with my mom at the er and I know I just made a mistake on my iPod... I'll have to change it tomorrow.

(edit: They put my mom in the hospital since she's on chemo and has a high fever. I'll take my sister's laptop to the hospital and hopefully she'll let me use it.)

I believe the real "difficulty" is internal to us, that we are inclined NOT to forgive sin, or even want to, but rather enjoy the role of gatekeeper, controlling who gets in and doesn't.

I have no problem in forgiving sin against me. I have no right to forgive sin against you. In all sin there is a clash of wills with the revealed will of God so all sin whether against me or against you is also sin against God. Anyone who usurps God's unique authority in this stands in great jeopardy.

Anyone who claims God's authority when it was not given stands in mortal danger.

"Many will say to Me in that day, “Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, “I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’" Matt 7:22–23 NKJV

Ron, I believe you are making a common exaggeration regarding the meaning and connotation of "sin."

The literal meaning of "hamartia" is simply "missing the mark." I think giving it the melodramatic and exaggerated meaning of "a clash of wills with the revealed will of God" is a mistake.

I know that goes against the grain around here, but there is nothing in "missing the mark" to give it the violent overtones you and others commonly ascribe to it.

This really shows that you have little idea of how to do exegesis which is the foundation of all Bible interpretation.

Words are not defined by the dictionary nor by their etymology but usage. Consequently all words in Biblical Greek need to be interpreted by their context and usage.

[url=http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G0266&t=KJV]Strong's G266 - hamartia[/url]

Here is a little sentence I have teaching students for 50 years..."Bible words don't have definitions, they have histories". By that I mean that a word like 'hamartia' is a Greek word used to communicate a Hebrew concept. Hebrew has more than a dozen words for sin. So when we find a word like 'hamartia' we need to carry into the Greek word all the connotations of the Hebrew history of God's people. The only way you can possibly understand the Greek word 'hamartia' is to read your Old Testament until you are soaked in the meaning of what the Bible means by sin.

Sin is not merely 'missing the mark' it is many other things too one of which is active rebellion against the known will of God. Far from 'exaggerating' the meaning of sin your method of exposition empties of the word of centuries of what sin really was.

Sin is so serious that it is impossible to exaggerate its meaning and consequence. Christ did not die under the wrath of God against sin because my aim was slightly off but because my sin is an offence to a holy God which merited my death. If you read your Old Testament you will discover that the essence of sin is rebellion not sloppy archery.

RonaldGoetz
You should be very careful to avoid trying to isolate a scripture verse by itself and then building a doctrine on it. That is the standard program for cults.

RonaldGoetz said “I believe this verse is "difficult" for us for the same reason it was "difficult" for the Pharisees to accept it when Jesus said, "Son, your sins are forgiven." The Pharisees replied, "This is blasphemy! Only God can forgive sins!" We feel it is blasphemous to think that we Christians have the authority to forgive sins, for the very same reason the Pharisees did.”

You are so wrong in your above statement. The Pharisees were absolutely correct in saying only God can forgive sins. Jesus is God thus He could forgive the sins. That is why it was NOT blasphemy for Him to say that.

It is completely blasphemous to state that you, me or any man has the ability to forgive sins. In this statement Jesus is not giving you the authority of forgive sins, He is giving you the Holy Spirit to proclaim the forgiveness of sins by preaching the word of God with boldness.

In John 20:23 Jesus said “Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.” This was following Jesus’ statement of “Receive ye the Holy Ghost” in verse: 22.

What was the Holy Ghost given for?

John 16:8-11 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

In Acts 4:31 when the believers were assembled together praying; “…and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the work of God with boldness.”

No where in scripture does it say that anyone but God can forgive sins. No where in scripture to you see any of the Apostles or followers of Christ forgiving sins.

They are filled with the Holy Spirit to proclaim the conditions of forgiveness in the preaching of the gospel of Christ with boldness.

Let’s look in the list of manifestation of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12:7-11): wisdom, knowledge, faith, healing, miracles, prophecy, discerning of spirits, speaking in tongues, and interpretation of tongues.

Nope I don’t see “Forgiver of sins” listed there.

OK well let’s look at the list of the ministries the Holy Spirit gives (Eph. 4:11-12): And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Hummmm… I don’t see “Forgiver of sins” listed there either.

Without trying to isolate a scripture by itself and looking at the entirety of the Word of God we can clearly see that only God can forgive sins. That goes for us today, be filled with the Holy Spirit and preach the gospel with boldness.

hi, this could mean that if a person sins against me by lying gossip and comes to me and asks for forgiveness from me and i forgive them MY path is made straight and i am free from guilt but they still need to confess their sins to the Lord for them to be free.jimp also in leading someone to Christ you can tell them that their sins are forgiven.

"And forgive us our debts, As we forgive our debtors." Matt 6:12 NKJV

"And forgive us our sins, For we also forgive everyone who is indebted to us. And do not lead us into temptation, But deliver us from the evil one.”" Luke 11:4 NKJV

If you compare Matt and Luke here you will see how inadequate it is to narrow 'hamartia' to mean an arrow off target. Notice the balance of Luke 11, you will see that 'sins' (hamartia) are synonymous in this verse with 'being in debt' . In this verse we see that sin is indebtedness to God. You will also see whose debts 'you' can forgive. You can forgive 'debts' against yourself. You will see too, I trust, what nonsense it would be to think that I could release someone who was in debt to another. I can release debts against me, none other.

So God is willing to forgive debts against him but to pretend that we have the power to discharge debts against God is folly. The Popes of old claimed to have power over purgatory and to be able to release souls from purgatory. The obvious question is 'if they had this power why did they not exercise it to release all purgatory's captives?'

For anyone who claims to have power to forgive sins and to release debts, with no accompanying repentance or knowledge, the obvious question is 'why don't you forgive the sins of the whole world?'

philologos wrote:

"For anyone who claims to have power to forgive sins and to release debts, with no accompanying repentance or knowledge, the obvious question is 'why don't you forgive the sins of the whole world?"

I think that this is a great question to ask. RonaldGoetz, what is your reply?

by philologos:

For anyone who claims to have power to forgive sins and to release debts, with no accompanying repentance or knowledge, the obvious question is 'why don't you forgive the sins of the whole world?'

Brother,
I know Ronald can give his own answer but I just wanted to say that your question sounds as bad as asking those who believe healing is for today, "why don't you just go through the hospitals and clean them out of sick people?" Just saying..

God bless,

by RonaldGoetz on 2010/7/12 18:34:07

"If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven." -- Jesus --

"To pretend that we have the power to discharge debts against God is folly." -- Philologus --

As you wish, Ron./quote]
That sounds like a clincher until you ask who is 'you' and John 20 makes it pretty clear that Ronald Goetz was not among the number.

"But if he has wronged you or owes anything, put that on my account. 19 I, Paul, am writing with my own hand. I will repay—not to mention to you that you owe me even your own self besides." Philem 1:18–19 NKJV

This comes from the little gem of Philemon. The word 'owe' here is the one used in Matt where it is translated 'debt'.

This is so obvious that I hesitated to mention it but notice who is going to 'pay' for Onesimus's debt to Philemon. Paul will repay. He will put his hand into his own pocket and cancel Onesimus's debt. Who then can repay our debt incurred by disobedience to God? Theoretically anyone who has the cash. The revelation of the New Testament is that 'only God has the cash'. Unless we can put our hands into our own pockets we have no right to cancel another's debt.

To claim that we can forgive the sins of the unrepentant and unknowing is an affront to the plain logic of this pattern. To take something from 'God's pocket' that we have not been specifically authorised to do is theft or worse.

This thread has given me a lot to think about. I can honestly say that if someone had asked me last week what that verse meant, I probably would have let my eyes glaze over and just said I don't know.

I also agree though that the Pharisees failure was not questioning Jesus right to forgive, but rather their error was failing to recognize who Jesus was, thus their, "house was left unto them desolate." They hated that Jesus forgave others because they were right, only God could forgive...thus they did not recognize who was among them.

The Pharisees utterly dropped the ball in recognizing the messiah and what he was intended to do. They held a completely wrong eschatology and failed in apprehending Jesus as the Spirit of Prophecy. Because humility was not in them, they could not recognize the Spirit of truth.

Absolution, Divine pardon, or Remission of sins belongs only to God.

The following is a quotation from 'Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible. Albert Barnes (1798-1870)

"This authority given them was full proof that they were inspired. The meaning of the passage is not that man can forgive sins that belongs only to God Isa_43:23 but that they should be inspired; that in founding the church, and in declaring the will of God, they should be taught by the Holy Spirit to declare on what terms, to what characters, and to what temper of mind God would extend forgiveness of sins.

It was not authority to forgive individuals, but to establish in all the churches the terms and conditions on which men might be pardoned, with a promise that God would confirm all that they taught; that all might have assurance of forgiveness who would comply with those terms; and that those who did not comply should not be forgiven, but that their sins should be retained.

This commission is as far as possible from the authority which the Roman Catholic claims of remitting sin and of pronouncing pardon".

"I suggest, it's possible to read everything that's recorded of their denial of Jesus' Divinity, as exactly that - denial - rather than ignorance."

I think you are right there Alive-to-God.