Feminism Of AG and Foursquare Churches

I'm not so sure about differences between Foursquare and Assemblies of God Churches, but they both seem intent on a feminist mission of establishing female "pastors" in the ministry.

I suppose this makes sense since pentecostals tend to be more emotional in their worship style; not necessarily a bad thing, but just trying to discover the underlying motives here.

Good people, for sure, though would like to explore this more.

I've seen many a brethren that are quite emotional in their worship. Perhaps read about the spirit of Jezebel and you will find your answer??

If you wish to understand this topic, and are actually serious about it, I would suggest you find a couple books on the subject. A few books on the history of the Pentecostal movement would be a good foundational read. I suggest starting with "Heaven Below: Early Pentecostals and American Culture." To date, I've yet to read a better book on the subject of the developments of Pentecostalism, which includes the controversial topic of women in ministry. Women were a leading force in the Pentecostal movement from early on.

The thing about AG churches is that they are part of a network of independent churches. With that construct, there are differences allowed including the placement of women in ministry roles. I am a pentecostal and do not believe in women in authority roles as I was taught in AG churches. However, throughout the Bible, God used women, such as Deborah, to lead His people. Joel prophesied that God would pour His Spirit on men and women in the last days.

The book that one of the posters suggested can be read at:

www.scribd.com/doc/17639141/Heaven-Below-Early-Pentecostals

I'd recommend a book as well. "The Feminist Mistake" – by Mary Kassian

Here is a short review of the book:

Do the teachings of feminism square with Scripture? Is it possible to be a Christian and a Feminist at the same time? Have the teachings of feminism been a positive influence on the culture, church and family? The answer to these questions become glaringly apparent as ones reads The Feminist Mistake.

Just as the title suggests, the feminist movement was a mistake, and has had detremental effects upon the culture, as well as the church. Women have been duped into believing they are entitled to a type of freedom that ends up being no freedom at all. Rather than embracing the biblical role of helper and submitting to the Godappointed leaders of the home and the church, women have forfeited true freedom.

Mary Kassian has written a history of the feminist movement in which she traces the thought processes of the key figures as it developed over the years. Pivotal figures such as Mary Daly, Virginia Mollenkott, Rosemary Radford Ruether, Letty Russell, Carol Christ and others are allowed to speak for themselves as Kassian presents their own writings.

The first stage of feminism was re-naming self. Women wanted the right to determine who they were apart from outside influences. They wanted the right to be equal with men, which was a short-lived goal. This soon escalated to the desire to be considered superior to men.

The second stage consisted of re-naming the world. Every aspect of life was reevaluted from a woman’s perspective. This was done through small groups called conscious raising groups where women’s thinking was reprogrammed. Even if
women were satisfied with their life as a wife and mother, they were considered to be in denial and needed their consciences “raised”.

Finally, the last stage, inevitably led to re-naming God. No longer could women who had rejected the roles previously held by women worship a male deity. Thus,they took measures to reform the church, including the liturgy, hymns,vocabulary and anything else that reminded them of maleness.

Interestingly, Kassian’s last section, “Shock Waves” shows how one generation later, the radical, far left tenets of feminism are now adopted as mainstream ideology. She also shows that no matter where a woman began with feminism,
whether as a Christian in the church, or as a secularist in society, all roads lead to the same conclusion. Each of the three stages is evident from both perspectives and
ultimately leads to a rejection of the Judeo-Christian God of the Bible.

This book, far from being a dry, boring, laborious history lesson on feminism, is an easy to read, interesting wake-up call to the dangers of feminism.

You may also read some more reviews of the book,as well as the "Introduction" and first chapter of the book, "The Problem Without A Name" at the following link:

http://www.monergismbooks.com/pdfs/feministmistake.pdf

ChristianGuy,

First off let me say that if you search out every reference to Jezebel in Scripture, none is associated with emotionalism. Rev 2.20 explains exactly what Jezebel is guilty of (and it's not being emotional in worship).

Women preaching is not a direct correlation to femininism - although, I'm sure there are many femininist's who preach. John Wesley was one of the first preachers to allow women to preach, one of them being his wife. You may come to a different conclusion after this thread but I do not think that women have conspired (or been on a feminist mission) down through the centuries to "take over" the pulpit of Christianity.

I already know that many will disagree with my statement! I would just like to point out that we who believe in women preachers do not get all upset and call the others who don't believe names and make unscriptural assumptions about them like they do us (point in being, the Jezebel and emotional in their worship. And humbly, I point out even in your original statement).

Also, where would 'missions' be without all the single women who dared to go into the middle of nowhere and preach the Gospel first before men?

Here is a quote with some good questions:

"If Christ be in the Female as well as in the Male, is not he the same? And may not the Spirit of Christ speak in the Female as well as in the Male? Is he there to be limited? Who is it that dare limit the Holy one of Israel? For the Light is the same in the Male, and in the Female, which cometh from Christ."
(John Fox 1656 Treatise?)

God bless you in your search for truth in this area,
Lysa

The Jezebel is not a spirit of emotionalism at all actually as Sister Lisa has pointed out, I have done some research on that particular spirit and have found that Jezebel is a spirit of Death and Jealously rathern emotionalism. Jezebel had a nasty habit of usurping the set in place authority rather submiting to it. This meaning she was not the authority but acted as if she was the authority. This doesn't mean all women preachers operate in this spirit. More or less though a Jezebel spirit won't be manifest until the Ahab spirit is manifest with it as well someone in authority that is weak minded and allows his/her authority to be usurpted with little fight. I have been in many churches where these spirits operate and are very possibly still active, one church it killed the entire church. I would like to make one final point the Jezebel spirit is no respector of Gender a man or a woman can operate in this spirit easily if not kept in check. We often pin the Jezebel spirit on females because Jezebel was a female but we must also keep in mind that those pointing the finger may be operating in a Jezebel spirit because Jezebel is also a spirit of false accusation. So saints beware of pointing the finger at our female pastors and preachers.

1. Cor 14

34Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
36What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
37If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
38But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
39Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
40Let all things be done decently and in order.

1. Tim
8I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.
9In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
10But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
11Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
15Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

King David seemed very emotional in his worship to God (he even danced for the Lord). King David definetly showed much passion in His relationship to God. Read Psalms, the ones he wrote!!

There is nothing wrong with men showing passion for the ONE who saved their soul!!

Lisa

I realize this may not sit well theologically with those from a cessationist viewpoint. However, please consider the following......

1. What does it mean, "to prophesy"?.

Since the supernatural revelatory utterance in a known
language is rejected by cessationists it is normally
defined as "preaching".

2. Please descibe how these scriptures would not then mean
that a female was teaching/preaching... including to
men!

Acts 2:17-18 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:And on my servants and on my HANDMAIDENS I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and THEY SHALL PROPHESY: KJV. Caps mine

Acts 21:8-9 And the next day we that were of Paul's company departed, and came unto Caesarea: and we entered into the house of Philip the evangelist, which was one of the seven; and abode with him. And the same man had FOUR DAUGHTERS, VIRGINS, WHICH DID PROPHESY. KJV. Caps mine

Another thought...we have the apostle Apollos submitting himself to and being instructed by a female...

Acts 18:24-26 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John. And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, THEY took him unto them, and EXPOUNDED unto him the way of God more perfectly.KJV. Caps mine.

The rub always seems to be in Paul's "usurping authority" clause. However, the only ministry gift that requires the usurping of authority over a man at times is the office/gift of pastor. Apostles, prophets, evangelists, and teachers do not require that action. It would seem that the only office/gift that God would put off limits from a woman might be that of pastor. However, apostles, prophets, evangelists, and teachers might well be females. I suspect that the reason may be that the discipline of "usurping authority" often required by a faithful pastor is just not in the emotional make up of most females...I am not aware of scripture for that...is just my instinct. I have seen females serve as pastors...but I am convinced it was because some guy was a spiritual slacker and had not stepped into his calling. In essence the female pastor was not God's best... however she had a heart for God's people and was available so He allowed her to temporarily step into that ministry.

However, there seems to be little doubt that females were preaching and teaching in the New Testament church. If Paul did not mean for them to ever do so then he would appear to be the ultimate hypocrite when he saw Philips daughters prophesying in Acts 21:8-9 and did not stop or condemn it. In fact the account in Acts paints them in a very positive light!

I have seen females serve as pastors...but I am convinced it was because some guy was a spiritual slacker and had not stepped into his calling. In essence the female pastor was not God's best

I was in agreement with you up until this point, the female pastor was "God's best", why? because she was obedient to the call of the Lord. We must also keep into account that God establishes all Authority this includes Government and Spiritual Leaders and are therefore are God's best.

Galatians 3:28 (New International Version)

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Please hear me out, i employ you before you burn me at the stake for having such foolish notions to indulge me in my folly for a few seconds.

1. What if women being subject to men was a result of mans fall in the garden or eden.

2. What if God set about a plan to restore mankind.

3. What if in this kingdom thier was no longer marriage and gender.

4. What if a couple of women in the early church misunderstood eschatology and refused to marry and saw themselves already in a glorified state

5 what if paul in his epistles for the sake of the church spoke specifically to churches to address this wrong attitude.

6 what if Paul thought gal 3:18

7 what if being filled with the Holy Spirit we are supposed to experience a taste of heaven on earth now.

8 What if in Christ there was no master and slave or male of female as the love of Christ would remove these boundaries.

Maybe paul was addressing specific issues at the time in certain churches. Im sure Paul uses terms that denote leadership of fellowship when referring to some females in his epistle (Im sure the more studious in greek many provide this information)

If Paul makes any reference in the greek to female leadership when speaking of certain women then advises subjectivity on the other hand we have to process all the available information as a whole and not just look at one side of the equation.

This is just my personal observation and maybe just my experience but every church bible study i have been too has had more women than men. If the people in a church that are hungriest for god happen to be women should the spirit use a "spiritual babe" man instead just because he is a man?

It reminds be of the age old speaking in tongues debacle, just because some denomination(corinth-like) has gone into excess do we dismiss tongues entirely. Same with us all being the same in Christ issues of excess had to be addressed but like tongues which paul wasnt advocating total eradication women do have 100% equality in Christ but the application is a very hard eschatological issue Paul addressed and many may misunderstand what he was saying. Same with the issue of slavery.

Watch this!! Watch This !!

Acts 2:17-18 (New International Version)

17" 'In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.

Galatians 3:26-29 (New International Version)

26You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Acts 18:24-26 (New International Version)

24Meanwhile a Jew named Apollos, a native of Alexandria, came to Ephesus. He was a learned man, with a thorough knowledge of the Scriptures. 25 He had been instructed in the way of the Lord, and he spoke with great fervor[a] and taught about Jesus accurately, though he knew only the baptism of John. 26 He began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they invited him to their home and explained to him the way of God more adequately.

Conclusion

If women should not speak how are they supposed to prophesy? Is the scripture contradicting? Why did God promise that women would prophesy if they are not even allowed to speak?

There is a wonderful but vastly neglected biblical teaching ministry for women.

Titus 2
3The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
4That they may TEACH the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
5To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

Anybody sulking ?

If women should not speak how are they supposed to prophesy? Is the scripture contradicting? Why did God promise that women would prophesy if they are not even allowed to speak?

Come now rainman didn't you know there was a spiritual gift of Pantamiming that women operated in? :) Sorry couldn't resist. :)

breakdown of your points Rainman

#1. Not talking about teaching. Prophesy is not the same as teaching.

#2. Heirs to the Kingdom. Enterance into the Kingdom is not based on male/female, Jew or Greek. Only based off of Christ. Again, not talking about teaching.

#3. Priscilla and Aquilla. No reference made if one of these two people were female. For all we know, Priscilla and Aquilla are two brothers living in the same house.

(Personal opinion noted here... If you know families with a lot of children, sometimes they will name siblings very similar names. Not many folks marry people with similar names. Stating my opinion only).

No teaching included with females in the verses that you stated. I do agree with the teaching that is set in place with other women and children, as has been stated.

Blessings!

narrowpath wrote:

Anybody sulking ?

That response right there is not of God, it's pride in it's purity toward the opposite sex.

And in case you were going to ask... no, I'm not sulking because I do everything you mentioned in Titus 2.3-5 and I love it!

God bless,
Lysa

Dear Lysa, RonaldGoetz and everybody else

Anybody sulking ?

You got me, I agree, sorry, that comment was out of place, and I had not prayed, forgive me please.

#3. Priscilla and Aquilla. No reference made if one of these two people were female. For all we know, Priscilla and Aquilla are two brothers living in the same house. (Personal opinion noted here... If you know families with a lot of children, sometimes they will name siblings very similar names. Not many folks marry people with similar names. Stating my opinion only).

Act 18:2 And found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; (because that Claudius had commanded all Jews to depart from Rome:) and came unto them.

Could it be that the admonitions that Paul was giving these particular groups were based more on the social norms of the day concerning women in those specific places? Case in point, 1Co 14:34
(34) Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

Some thoughts on this scripture. Paul tells the Corinthians specifically to let YOUR women keep silent. The "churches" in this context seem to be indistinguishable from the Jewish synagogues. Christians were often going to synagogues in order to expound and share Christ. Paul did so, Jesus did so. The law never said that women should keep quiet in a Christian meeting, but rather in the synagogue. Granted one cannot absolutely say this point of view is right, but it is worth considering.

Personally I have known many women who prophecy, give messages in tongues and interpret such messages, and who operate in a great power of the Holy Spirit. Their ministry is genuine and anointed.

Just some food for thought: But did you know that the word for "wife" and "woman" are the exact same in the Greek? As one minister I heard suggest, the prohibitions we often read as being against women speaking isn't so much against women speaking as it is wives usurping their husbands. There is nothing grammatically that demands "women/woman" be translated as such. It is just as valid to translate every instance of woman as "wife."

Contextually, this makes sense as well, since in exhortations for women to ask their husbands at home simply could not apply to a single woman, who had no husband to ask. Thus, Paul's admonitions could be understood to say that a wife should basically never dishonor her husband in a public assembly of the church by usurping his place, and not as a strict prohibition against speaking during a service. Quite the contrary, as has been pointed out already, there are no shortage of examples of women having a public speaking ministry in the New Testament.

In my mind, such makes a great harmony between the texts that seem to limit women in ministry, and the fact that we have clear cut data showing that women were very active and vocal in ministry.

twayneb wrote:

"Act 18:2 And found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; (because that Claudius had commanded all Jews to depart from Rome:) and came unto them."

I stand corrected in light of scripture. Husband and wife.

Here is a reference to ponder.

We do not claim to know the spirit and balance of how Priscilla and Aquila and Apollos related to each other. We only claim that a feminist reconstruction of the relationship has no more warrant than ours. The right of Priscilla to hold an authoritative teaching office cannot be built on an event about which we know so little. It is only a guess to suggest that the order of their names signifies Priscilla’s leadership. Luke may simply have wanted to give greater honor to the woman by putting her name first (1 Peter 3:7), or may have had another reason unknown to us. Saying that Priscilla illustrates the authoritative teaching of women in the New Testament is the kind of precarious and unwarranted inference that is made again and again by evangelical feminists and then called a major Biblical thrust against gender-based role distinctions. But many invalid inferences do not make a major thrust.

Recovering Biblical Manhood & Womanhood - A Response to Evangelical Feminism - Piper and Grudem, Chapter 2, Pg. 68-69.

www.desiringgod.org/media/pdf/books_bcq/bbmw_chapter_2.pdf

Greet Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners, who are outstanding among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me. - (Rom 16:7 NASB)

Just a thought to toss in for study and reflection, but in this verse here, we discover a woman by the name of Junias (which is Gk. feminine) is being named along with Adronicus, as being "outstanding among the apostles," which means they were apostles.

So, if Paul recognized a woman as an apostle (an outstanding one at that), then it is not hard to imagine that his theology of women in ministry isn't has restrictive as we sometimes imagine it to be.

This post has been edifying i must say i am learning more stuff. Gordon Fee "Listening to the Spirit in the text" touches on Pauline theology to which he alludes to the fact that Paul may have recognized women ministers and that some women had misunderstood their identity in Christ and instead of giving themselves in subjection to their husbands they spoke out of turn and had attitudes that threatened the marriage institutions itself (paraphrasing)

1 Corinthians 14:34-38

goo-nay'
(a woman; specifically a wife: - *wife*, woman.)

an'-ayr
a man (properly as an individual male): - fellow, *husband*, man, sir.

34 [goo-nay'] should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, *as the Law says*. 35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own [an'-ayr] at home; for it is disgraceful for a [goo-nay'] to speak in the church.

1. looking that the Greek in that scripture its clear that Paul is speaking about certain unruly women speaking out of turn and not being in submission to their husbands. It seems husbands where supposed to be the spiritual head of their homes and teach their households and the elder women in the church community took responsibility for teaching young women.

2. *but must be in submission as the Law says* what law is he referring to? Wifes being made subject to husband after the fall in the garden of eden or is there a specific command in the torah ? either way it seems to point to wifes as the proper translation rather than women.

3. If All Men took a stand like Joshua and declared "As for me and my house we shall server the lord" would we have this issue to start with? How many single parent / divorced households are there these days where the women have assumed the role of a man because the man was a "Slacker" as someone has already alluded to

I thank God for the ministry of women. Sister Okie at my last church was a godly grandmother who loved the Lord, trusted in Him with all her heart, and earnestly prayed to the Lord for the salvation of all her immediate and extended family.

She was a mighty woman of faith, full of the Spirit and good works. She walked with a broken heart, serving the church and the homeless without fail. She regularly filled the pews, and many in her family came to know the Lord. She held no official position in the Church, but when she spoke to you in person or stood on a Sunday morning to testify or exhort the body, you listened. She walked with authority and power, because God was with her. She was a pastor to many, though never given such a position. Even our male elders recognized her in this capacity, even if never officially. Indeed, she functioned humbly in such a role, even more than some of them did.

Her husband was a spiritual infant and backwards. Thank God she didn't just sit quietly and try to support his "ministry." I wouldn't be who I am today if she had, and hell would be more full.

Dear Lysa, RonaldGoetz and everybody else

Anybody sulking ?

You got me, I agree, sorry, that comment was out of place, and I had not prayed, forgive me please.

Forgiven!

God bless you,
Lysa

Rainman wrote:

"3. If All Men took a stand like Joshua and declared "As for me and my house we shall server the lord" would we have this issue to start with? How many single parent / divorced households are there these days where the women have assumed the role of a man because the man was a "Slacker" as someone has already alluded to"

A "Nail head hitter" again. When are men going to stand up and be men. So many men today are content with assuming the biblical role (and the non-biblical wordly role as well) of women and reversing the true roles that the Lord intended us for.

Thanks Rainman