By His Stripes You Are Healed

by Heydave on 2010/8/4 2:06:29

Now I believe that God can and does heal folk today, but this confession and claiming 'I am already healed' is new age nonsense!

1 Peter 2:24 - 25 says " who Himself bore our SINS in His body on the tree, that we, having DIED TO SINS. might LIVE FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS - by whose stripes you were healed.
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Hey Dave,

i suppose it's new age nonesense to say Jesus already has forgiven all my sins?

"...Were healed," not will be healed.

Even as Jesus bore our sins 2000 years ago, so he as well bore all sickness and disease and death in His forging this New Covenant.

When you sin, Jesus does not go to the cross again, as Romanism promotes in their mass of eucharist.

Neither does He have to be beaten bloody (again) to heal you.

All the fogiveness and healing happened almost 2000 years ago.

These things come by resting our trust in Jesus, no matter the way things appear to be.

Granted, the confession mentioned, without the admission that you body is sick is denial of the facts...yet we are to look towards that which we cannot see, and not the temporal. The temporal is changing; but the eternal realities established already remain fact: ONLY BELIEVE.

Abram began calling himeself "Father-of-many-nations" 25 years before his only son Isaac was born. Is that new age nonesense, too?

We have a more sure Word: Jesus; having already fulfilled -(recievable by grace through faith)- these things promised by God.

Love, Hope, and Faith,
gregg

...I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.
Acts 20:31-32

by Heydave on 2010/8/4 6:56:55

Phanetheus wrote:

i suppose it's new age nonesense to say Jesus already has forgiven all my sins?

OK I suppose I deserved a response like that, given my provocative statement!
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I'm not irritated.
Reading that had me rolling on the floor laughing...literally.

When contending with family members who are of the persuasion that all the healings and miracles ended with the first apostles, they get upset with me. It's a closed subject with them now. They are holding on to their sicknesses and diseases, and i will continue to remain in Christ.
(How can one be sick if they are in Christ? Is Christ sick?)

Without exception, God has always healed me, often miraculously. He always will, and if i don't see it happen right away, i'm still going to tell you God will always heal you, just because He has promised this. Even if He doesn't, nobody will never change my mind. God is always true to His Word, namely Jesus Christ.
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However you are assuming that the payment for sins and sickness are all on the same level and that sickness was included in the atonement. I don't believe they are the same or that it is included in the same way.
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I'm not assuming. It's what the Bible says.

Sin, sickness, disease, death, physical damages, whether disaster or bodily injury...none of these things are the same; however, they are all a result of the curse of the Law beginning with man's fall in the garden.

"...Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree..." (Gal 3.13).

All the mishaps mentioned after sin two paragraphs above are a result of Adam's sin, as is eternal punishment.

Why should someone set free from sin have to continually bear the consequences of Adam's sin?
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The penalty (eternal punishment) for sin has been paid for, but while we are still in this earthly body we can still sin. Our spirit is made new, but we don't get a new body until the resurection. Therefore the result of sin still effects our mortal body, otherwise we would not die or need a new resurected body.
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Yeah, yur right. We can still sin and we can still get injured, and we can still come down with ailments... but in any of these cases, we do not have to continue to wallow in them.

If we trust God will restore us, He does. IF we don't trust in Him to restore us, He doesn't. (It's as simple as that.)

The word salvation is an all inclusive word, in the Greek meaning deliverance, wholeness, and preservation...and the Bible is chock-full of examples of all the things God has done for those who rely on Him...and freedom from sin is just one part of the whole.

Salvation, in whatever aspect is appropriated through resting our confidence in, and relying on God to do as He says He will do.
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I think there is a long dicussion on this subject from previous days, so probably not worth going over the 'is healing in the atonement' argument again.
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While we are still in this earthly body we can still sin and we can still suffer various physical maladies, whether physical injury or ailments of whatever sort.

For these things, God also promises time and again that He will make us whole. Incarnate on earth, Jesus did just what He saw His Father do, and we can rely on this as an example of what God will always do for those who believe He will do as He has always done.
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Personally, i'm not up for any discussions on the subject. This mind is fixed on what Jesus did, and experience proves it. It is man who has severed wholeness from the atonement, not God.

Now we have the real deal, but the shadow of this is the passover, and what did God provide as a result? In exodus out of bondage, from 12 tribes, over 2,000,000 people ranging from babies to elderly with all their livestock:

He smote also all the firstborn in their land, the chief of all their strength. He brought them forth also with silver and gold: and there was not one feeble person among their tribes. Egypt was glad when they departed: for the fear of them fell upon them. Psalm 105.36-38

You don't have to believe it, yet according to what you believe is truly available from God, it shall be that way for you. IF all you want to do is trust God to save you and your household (from sin), that's good, because i'll see you in the kingdom that day.

All i'm saying is that there is alot more to a relationship with Abba in Jesus Christ than becoming moral according to God's standards. Believe it or not there are benefits that show the watching world just how glorous God is, for beyond what we have desired...and they do not have to remain as some pie-in-the-sky future.

Through Jesus finished work on Golgatha, regarding healing, only a few of the more astounding things that have manifested through God's hand on this body follow.

Jesus healed me completely from:

...punctured lungs, bruised kidneys and internal bleeding

...severe brain damage, resulting in amnesia and uni-polar mania

Hi Franklin.

It may have been well explained, and possibly a time will come when i see that some things said were wrong; yet, as this narrow path becomes more narrow, there is more freedom in Christ with a clearer and clearer vision of things to come, with greater and greater blessings in this present existence.

God Bless.
g

Phanetheus, if I may ask, why did you have surgery on your broken leg? Was it a lack of faith on your part?

What you assert is so sure (that God will always heal those who have faith to receive, and that as sin is instantly, yea, already done away with, so is sickness), and yet you seek men and his medicine.
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Sin and sickness were defeated when Jesus said, "IT IS FINISHED."

We can walk in this or not.

Even as walking a continual overcoming life where sin has no dominion over you, so it is with everything else God has made complete provision for in the cross.

Some things are instant and other things take time.

We get a clue about this in James:

Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas. 1.17-18, 21

filthiness are things that remain --after resting our reliance in Him-- that are unclean by God's ideal.

We are redeemed,yes. However, we are saved from what we rest our trust in Him towards...and then some things he surprises us with.

'Superfluity of naughtiness' in the KJV is 'earwax' in the Greek. This is the residue from sin that can still taint us and make us unable to hear and accordingly believe what God promises.

Every instance i ended up in the hospital, 3 in all, i was either unconscious (2wice) or so disoriented, others family members made the decisions and signed the release forms and what-not so that doctors could do what they have learned to do.

These situations ended up being times when God stepped in and proved to the medicine men that they could never do what He does swiftly.

Miracles occur faster than normal. All of God's healing may or may not occur this way.
People often confuse this issue.

To go to the doctor is never a lack of faith for anyone, so long as they are relying on God and not the doctor.

Stand Up for Jesus
...The arm of flesh will fail you,
Ye dare not trust your own...

Faith is relative to relationship, and yes, it was a lack of faith(fulness) that put me there in the first place.

Was it a lack of belief in God?
HARDLY!
i failed Him and was walking in my own way. He never fails.
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I am not at all doubting that God has miraculously worked in your life for physical healing, clearly you have a marvelous testimony.
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God is better than just good by earthly standards.

Praise our LORD!

It's not looked at it as my testimony anymore. It's more like just a small part of God's proof that He is always there and He is never silent.

Others can only affirm this or doubt...

...but they can experience such of the very same because God doesn't care who you are or what you have done. He just wants everyone to be in relationship with Him, to know and understand Him.

God is fully more than complete kindness and love, justice, and right in everything He considers, says, and does.

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Just seeking to better understand your theology, as it appears that when it is pressed to the limits, it doesn't pass through the other side unscathed. (Genuine question:) Were these instances a lack of faith?
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I really hate that word theology as this has turned out to be man's story about God. Can any man put Him in a box, or a book for that matter? There is the letter and then there is His Spirit. They may for themselves box off God, resulting from or due to unbelief, but He will not hesitate to work where there is dependent confidence IN HIM and need.

i don't understand it all, but i KNOW HIM, Yaweh Rapha.

...learning all the time...
jimp stated my sentiments exactly, yet i will trust Him.

We do not rely on sentiments.

If i don't know, i'll tell you plainly.

Ask away.

Jesus Himself has declared, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.”  So we can boldly confess: “The Lord is my helper; I will not fear ...
Heb 13:6

We have an altar from which those who serve the tabernacle have no right to eat. For the bodies of those animals, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned outside the camp. Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people with His own blood, suffered outside the gate. Therefore let us go forth to Him, outside the camp, bearing His reproach. For here we have no continuing city, but we seek the one to come. Therefore by Him let us continually offer the sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of our lips, giving thanks to His name. But do not forget to do good and to share, for with such sacrifices God is well pleased. Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, make you complete in every good work to do His will, working in you what is well pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever.

Amen.

Heb. 13.10-16,20-21 (NKJV)

by Heydave on 2010/8/5 8:20:09

That's exactly my point...who are we to tell God that He must heal us, especially if I confess it and exercise 'my faith'. I would rather entrust my life to God and let Him decide what I need. Maybe He may need to use an illness or broken limb to teach us or discipline us! Rather we get right spiritually than enter heaven empty in perfect health!

Now I would like you to understand that I am all for trusting God for our health and healing. I ask the LORD to give me health and strength every day. If I am sick I am open for prayer for God's healing. What I am disputing is that it is a 'done deal'; that my healing is a past reality and I just need to believe I am healed and confess it to get it. I can ask my Father for what I want, but have to trust that He knows what is best for me. Sometimes we need to go through things and not always be delivered from them. This is how we grow.

I been there with the Health and prosperity deception and worn the T shirt. I'm glad to be out of that junk.

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I would NEVER tell God He had to do anything; but i do trust what He reveals in the Bible.

It's about thinking and speaking and doing as God has designed for you to be: IN HIM. We conform to the image of His dear Son, from glory to glory.

To think that we can make God do anything is just plain stupid.

We don't have to tell God he must heal us. He said I AM. This is never my faith i am exercising. He is faithful. He as well, brings me to the point of faithfulness in Him.

To say i'm letting God decide, as if my circumstance were greater than God's promises, would, (for me at least,) to be calling God a liar.

(Don't get caught in the valley of indecision. It is dark. There is no noon nor Son.)

We don't go forward by accepting what God has given His Son's life to free us from.

On the straight and narrow, there is always someone ahead of us. His name is Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of our faith(fulness). He is whom we have to do, the Judge and justice over all the earth. Look to Him continuously.

It isn't about what i want. God's Word (Jesus) is His will, and He says HE is our healing. It seems many think this is only referring to physical ailments, and perhaps a better term would be wholeness. When we entrust our lives to His will for us, and this is hardly just naming it and claiming it, he restores us according to His commitment towards His purposes alone. We have to be willing to recieve, yet without being sure that God will make us whole, it is not going to happen.

Now i am none for that confession game, thinking i can just blab it and grab it is pure foolishness and hinges on what you previously stated: new age. The only thing a mantra does is cause demonic posession. That confirming God's word with my(?) word is a misplacement of who is in authority, and is nothing less than idolatry. With it comes severe spiritual detriment. It's not about believing i am healed, but that i believe in God who always has and ever does heal. This is one revelation of His name = essence.

Through no devising of my own, from early childhood God has walked and talked with me. I resisted salvation from sin until the age of 14, yet he was always present with me to direct my steps whether i listened or not.

There did come a point in time when He told me, Gregg, enough is enough. I have been so patient with you, putting up with your self-willed ways. I have taught you what to do, and you have been revealed truth time and again, yet you just step on it like it was nothing. Familiarity with me leaves no room for contempt...
... and judgement fell.

i have gone through so much disciplining from that point until about 8 years ago (over 11 years). Your average joe would definitely be dead.

This disciplining was all about doing what He spoke to me irregardless of whatever...and the learning still continues.

He never ever stopped leading me and loving me though i am one of those from early youth that determined what i said goes: my way or the highway. Being a strong-willed child is an extreme understatement. If i lived under the Old Covenant, no doubt i would have been stoned early on.

What no man or government could control, God has the final Word here. He began working with me and He will finish it.

More than all else that can be accounted for, it (still) is the persistent prayers of my mother that i cannot get out of this head, and have assisted me through both supplications and interceeding to God.

Jesus is fine-tuning me.

God knows what is best for us, yes. The scriptures reveal Thee Word (Jesus) to us.

Sometimes we have to go through things?
How about always?
(i am thouroughly convinced that as we grow, we experience adversity accordingly. No problems? Best take a good look at yourself and see what side of the fence you're on. The devil does not oppose those who are coveteous and do not live godly.)

It's not about thinking our belief will get the job done. It's not about repeating the right mantra.

God in His good grace may do for you as you say and believe, but the question really is, "where is your heart?"

I do not blame God for any evil that befalls. It is not His fault. He made all things good.

There is no way anybody can get me to trust God to make me sick, or diseased or any other problem.

It is not God's good pleasure to make us suffer.
Is that abundant life?

The thief comes to steal, kill and destroy.
Is God a thief?

Rather, see Jesus, through His death as our wholeness. He gave His body for the life of the world, not the death.

He pored out His blood for our redemption and reconciliation to God. By His propitiatory sacrafice, ALL the promises of God are 'yea' and 'amen' --(that is to say, 'yes' and 'i am confidently relying that God does as He says').

Identifying yourself in Jesus, according with Phillipians 2 and in Romans 6 is what makes these good things real in our lives.

We die in Him so that we live out His Life in Him.
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i went to a full gospel church more than 20 y-eraz ago, and when they started into the Word of Faith message, God showed in many ways that it was best for me to leave them to their devices. This is what i did and have only benefitted from this decision.

God never told me yea nor nay regarding the Word of Faith message. i take that back. He told me but i wasn't listening...so He showed me.

From a week long series of Kenneth Copeland meetings in Nashville, on the last day, he was heard saying that Jesus became a sinner and was born again in hell.

For the life of me, i still do not know why so many of that church continued in that deception, when they were all told and shown that this was a lie from the pit of hell itself. There were other things that hardly sat right within, but that was the last straw.

Why would any of God's ministers deny what God really did, unless they do not understand?
Kenneth knows better or is truly decieved.

i bravely RAN away.
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God Bless you
as you hash
all this out,
gregg

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Passion

Within my mind's eye
Flickering from the past
Come images that terrify and calm
A paradox in me

Nail pierced hands they run with blood
A splitting brow forced by the thorns
His face is writhing with the pain
yet it's comforting to me

He chose to give it all
Jesus endured the pain
Paying a debt I owed
and created
a paradox in me

Nail pierced hands they run with blood
A splitting brow forced by the thorns
His face is writhing with the pain
yet it's comforting to me

And in my heart I know that you're the only one
Who could of came and died, a sacrifice
As your God's only son

Nail pierced hands they run with blood
A splitting brow forced by the thorns
His face is writhing with the pain
yet it's comforting to me

~Kutless

edited 4 you

by BeYeDoers on 2010/8/5 7:46:13

Where does death fit into the picture?

Do you anticipate never having heart failure, heart attack, lung failure, cancer, etc. that will end up taking your life? Everyone that is walking in the truth of God our Healer will only ever die of "oldness" but not sickness?

We are completely healed of sickness, but we will not be delivered from death until we die?
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We are all sinning all the time whether we care to admit it or do not recognize it.

Rom. 3:23 in the KJV is a mistranslation and several other verses confirm what it really says," For all are continually sinning and continnualy fall short of God's glorious ideal."

With this in mind consider God's proclaimation through the prophet, "the soul that sinneth, it shall die."

Everybody wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die.

Not everybody is redeemed from sin.
Yet even the redeemed sin.

Not everybody is healed.
yet, even the redeemed get ailments.

Not everybody lives in eternal life:
--("And death and hell were cast
into the lake of fire.
This is the second death." Rev 20.14)--
yet, even the redeemed die...
...and by what means is not neccessarily of our choosing.

As far as the failures go, i did have lung failure b4, lasting 12 minutes.

i have been through the gates of death 2wice during the timespan of one accident and recovery. i want to go back.

How'z dat?

Shalom,
gregg

edited 2 4 U

(not to take away but to add)

What has always amazed me is when dealing with those who have physical ailments who are involved in occult practices, cults, and philosophies that stand directly against the faith handed down from Jesus and his 1st apostles (Saul included), is when they ask for me to either lay hands on them and/or pray for them.

Most of them are healed instantly: a miracle. All have been healed in these cases.

Yet, i know many claiming Jesus as Lord and Christ who remain infirmed, even when: hands are laid, they are annointed, and prayed for.

Some think it's a matter of "if it is God's will"; however, when there is still a question whether God will heal them or not, they can't be sure that God will do what he promises time and again.

For the larger majority who are not healed, there is often a particular sin that is being held on to.

It's said, "held on to" because i have seen so many let go of this sin and instantly become healed. There are alot of aspects to this one sin, however it starts with the pride of SELF-dignity.

It's saying i'm worthy enough to be respected, and with this i have rights, privledges, and possessions.
(Little do these folks realize that these things are actually possessing them. It is what they treasure, and it brings them into bondage.)

From this certain (still unnamed) root stems first lust to be recognized. The lust then manifests through other avenues.

It turns to anger when somebody else takes what they think is theirs or their right, and uses and/or abuses it not to the advantage of the person who thinks it's theirsin the first place.

From anger manifests fights and the will to get even by whatever means.

At the root is bitterness, and it doesn't take much discernment at all to see who is walking in this.

They are unforgiving. By their very actions, words, and demeanor they try to exude an air of superiority through contempt towards others: murmuring, complaining, tale-bearing and gossip, putting others down, sarcasm and cynicism are a few of the more evident out-spoken signs.

Think about James words in relation to healing and what he said about "from whence comes wars and fighting among you?"

"From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members? Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not. Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts. Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.  Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy? But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. Submit yourselves therefore to God.
( Jas 4.1-7 )

Why aren't alot of Chiristians healed?

This is the root of bitterness, and it corrupts not just the person holding on to it, but everyone with whom they have to do:

" Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person..."
( Heb. 12.14-16b )

This sin above all others destroys faith in Jesus, and leads to unbelief as it grows worse and worse if not put under-foot.

"And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil... For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses ...For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also ...Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on.
( Mt. 6.12-15, 21, 25 )

Shalom,
g

edited: towards more detailed explanation

by BeYeDoers on 2010/8/6 16:33:42

Interestingly enough, James says it's the faith of the one praying, not the sick, that brings the healing.

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What version or paraphrase are you using?

In the Greek, prayer is the subject.
Those participating are the subject of this subject.

Faith(fulness) is the object.

It is faith(fulness) and not the participants, nor the prayer that heals.

Love, hope, and Faith,
g

BeYeDoers on 2010/8/6 18:51:04

"Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer of faith shall save the sick" KJV

It is the faith-filled prayer OF THE ELDERS, not the faith of the sick, that shall heal him.
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Ok, even though KJV mixes up genetives as subject/object tas well, we'll use the KJV.

If you think that prayer without faith(fulness) and or elders without faith(fulness) is what saves the sick, have at it.

It may have not been clear what was stated.

the greek Textus Receptus (as this is what the standardized accepted A.V. comes from) reads:

(literal)
14 Is infirm any among you? Let him summon the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, having annointed him with oil in the name of the Lord.

15 And the prayer of faith will save those being sick, and will raise him the Lord, and if sin he may be having done it will be forgiven him.

Now, it is the name of Jesus that heals, as the scriptures state, "there is no other name under heaven whereby one must be saved (delivered, restored whole, preserved)."

Further, it is not some magick formula for elders to annoint with oil then pray.

Our faith(fulness) is imputed, and it is by the faithfulness of Jesus we live (Gal. 2.20).

Without the faith(fulness) of Jesus in the first place, nobody but nobody gets healed.

It is not the elders.
It is not the annointing with oil.
It is not the prayer.

These verses in James five are not in the imperative. This means that this is what he suggests.

What does the person do who cannot get to any elders, has no oil, and does not know how to pray do?

If others want to make the elders prayer the object of their faith that's their perogative.

The KJV as well as the Greek state it is the name of the Lord and implies His faith(fulness) that heals, and everything else is subject to these objects.

Is there something i am missing?

g

i'll stick with the crying out Jesus name

Travis,
i don't know why but reading what you wrote made tears well up from inside and out these eyes.

It was your confession
in the last paragraph
that really made it stick
like a knife,

"I am so thankful for the love that God has for me. I praise Him for His healing work as well as for His salvation. It is true that I can be saved and live a fruitful life of ministry, all the while being very sick, and spend eternity with Him. But oh how wonderful that He has provided that I can be saved, and healed as well."

At times there is weeping for those who can be healed but just are not sure that what God says is the way it is. (S'pose this is one of those times as well as reading others testimonies here, like Rainman, knowing that God will pour out His love gifts to anyone who will recieve them.

Yeah,
it was Bosworth who wrote something like, "Ailments are incipent death" and he was referring to Romans 5:12. That book, "Christ the Healer," quite a few years ago was read through so many times it fell apart.

It was Kenneth Hagin's meeting, (and you prolly recall this from a PM,) that this problem of bitterness was first brought to my attention. It was so amazing to see so many over 70% of the auditorium (full) instantly healed when they let go of their bitterness and forgave, many of these never even making it to the line to have hands laid on them.
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i am not really against the name it claim it camp as some suppose. There just is no room to espouse whatever the falsehood may be wherever it rears it's ugly head.

What i am always vehemently loud about, and i will never go quietly, and i will not back down, is when the spirit of any gathering becomes "antichrist." That is to say,"focus of the congregation is turned to "something-other-than-Christ. For examples, this could be proclamation of something that is not the Jesus who knows me, revealed through His rhema, or it could be something where attention is directed and fixed on something that is all about us.

Though many will deny it, Evangelicals and Fundamentalists appear to be the worst in doing this:
"You want to go to heaven don't you?"
"You don't want to go to hell do you?"
"Just pray this prayer..."
"Just say these words..."
"Just believe in your heart"
"Just follow these scriptural principles..."
...and on and on and on...

Orthodoxy and the Exegetes seem so dead and lifeless. All the liturgies and ritualism, talking about God and seldom emphasising relationship in Jesus, nor "the fullness of His victory...and we're just the mop-up crew,"
to quote K. E. H.
Can't get emotional about God, but we can cheer on a football match until blood vessels burst?????
(If a person can't get emotional about their relationship with God, it's wondered what kind of stand-offish relationship they have?

For sooo many, on Sunday when those hands on the clock hit 12 or 1 (depending on locale), God's time is up and God forbid the preacher go ten minutes over or the carnal ones will chastise without fail.
(Some i've asked (when enough is enough of such mud from the pig stye, "what is more important, your after sunday-go-to-meeting-meal and/or shopping or visiting with someone other than God or your faith?)

i'll quickly tell them to leave if they have something more important, pressing, or scheduled.

Complaining regarding things Godward is not the way to be on God's right side. The children of Isreal complained and murmured constantly. They wandered the wilderness for 40 years, and out of all those millions, only three ( including Joseph's bones?), went into the promised land while the carcasses of all the others wasted away in the desert.
(The scriptures say that it is an 11 day journey from the place they left Egypt to the place of entry into the promised land. What could have been a mere 11 days took 40 years without over 99.9+% ever even seeing the land flowing with milk and honey.)

Whoah! Enough of that.

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Anyway,
Is healing in the atonement?

When have more been healed by God?
Before or after His ressurection?

If one wishes to believe that the redemptive names of God are not filfulled in Jesus Christ until some future P.I.T. (point in time), then redemption from sin might just as well be thrown out the window with the other 7.

If these things to think about are insufficient, the following scriptures compose a good starting point to consider God's heart purpose towards His people, here and now:

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And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.
Num. 21.9

Jesus speaking:
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Jn. 3.14-15

Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
I Pet. 2.24
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Peter is speaking of both sin and bodily infirmities as past tense.

We can be sure that the last part of that verse "by whose stripes ye WERE healed" is in reference to physical healing because it is a direct quote from Isaiah 53.
(Consider what Twayneb wrote regarding that passage meaning physical healing by it being reference in regard to this very thing in the gospels.)

Some just do not want to rest their confidence in Jesus to heal them, or maybe they can't because they have either/or spoken against this work of His Holy Spirit and have not sought forgiveness, or the unbelief is so strongly ingrained that they look for exceptions to God's promises, and as well give more credit to what they can see than what God says. (there are other factors relevant, but these seem to be the strongholds against believing God that He wants to and will heal us if we just place complete comfidence in Jesus and what He has already made available to anyone who will trust in Him.

Anyway, here is a transliteration of the first portion from Is. 53 about Jesus making us whole. Reading this, one can hardly deny that Jesus not only died to restore us regarding our iniquity, but our souls and bodies as well.

1 Who is faithfully-believing Our doctrine? And to whom is the strength-of-the-arm of Yaweh uncovered?

2 Before His countenance He ascends as a young plant, a permanent root in droughted earth. He has no spectacular form nor handsomeness; we beheld Him, but His appearance did not draw us to Him.

3 People distained and avoided Him, a man of pains, cognizant with illness. Like on one whom people turn their faces from, He was despised; we did not (e)value(ate) Him.

4 In truth, our diseases He bore, (and these) our pains He suffered. Still, we considered Him punished: beaten and humiliated by God.

5 But He was wounded for our crimes, crushed for our law-breaking. The disciplining that makes us whole fell on Him. By His bruisings...
--[ (implied from the mss.=)and through communion with him]--
...we are cured.

It is a matter of trusting dependence on God that HE will do what He says.

It's not your right.

It's a priveledge, a gift from His Grace, His love towards you, to be recieved.

Nobody has to accept a gift, but why wouldn't anybody want to recieve everything God freely gives.

Shabbat Sholom,
gregg

Hey Dave,

Dispensationalists are locked into a system of belief that contradicts God way of always establishing relationship through covenant, not dispensations. You may not claim to be one, yet much of what you state comes from them.

As said before, i'm not up for arguing any of this, for the reasons that the scriptures clearly state healing is in the atonement.

All of my immediate family have walked in health ever moreso as knowledge regarding His gifts of promise comtinue to grow through relationship in Him.

No, there is no joking about K. Hagin. Nor am i in their camp.

No man has a corner on the truth. There remains yet to be found any doctrinal statement(s) --by whatever group that claims to believe certain things-- where errors are not noted.

To think that me and my little group are right and i will seperate from the rest of Christendom is cult mentality, and hardly manifests unity in the Body of Christ.

Often through this, i have seen error in what i thought was true, and made a mid-course correction accordingly.

Who are we to judge another man's servant? To clarify error of doctrine is one thing, but to ostracize another person because they don't have all their belief correct according to me???? Get real!

(Since we are to love our enemies, what about those that are sincerely searching out God (as their lives evidence God is changing them?))

I'll question and explain and learn and reveal what teaching(s) seem(s) wrong, but will not disregard whatever truth learned through them.

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Look closer at the verses you yourself use. Look at the verbs and consider the main verbs, their tenses and what is subject and object in relation to them. (It can be proven that these verses are futuristic as well as healing.)

As for Isaiah 53, the Hebrew is hardly "grief or sorrow"

The word that "grief" is used as a synonym for is used 24 times in the OT. 24 times it is referring to sickness and sometimes 'infers' the pain that accompanies it. The AV translates this word 20 times correctly as it is meant to be used. The other 4 times it is rendered as the english synonym "grief' which is not really a synonym for this word, but the root verb from which this word is derrived.

The word translated sorrow, actually in the Hebrew means "mental and/or physical pains resulting from ailments" in the Hebrew ms.

Just because the KJV waters down the actual meanings of Hebrew words from the Masoretic manuscript does not make them not mean what they actually should have been translated as.

There is no arguement with you.
You can choose to believe what you want, and according to your faithfulness to God's testimony it shall be thiat way for you.

The apostles and the primitive church believed in and practiced using: the name of Jesus; laying hands; giftS of healing; prayer for the sick (in confident reliance that God would heal them), after annointing with oil; as well as prayer cloths. (there must be something to this in the atonement as they were all about what Jesus has done.)

As for K. E. H. calling believers the mop up crew, i shouldn't have said such as Jesus states it much more plainly to the eleven disciples:

"All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. For this reason you go... Teaching them to take part in ALL THINGS: WHATEVER I have told you to do...."
( Mt. 28.18-20... and please consider Mt. 10 relative to this, as all else is related in the gospels and Acts.)

No it's not that all who do not agree with my position on healing or anything else are in unbelief, worldly, in sin or some way less then that "mop-up crew."

All who are trying to fight against this position will not experience what those who trust God in this do experience. That's all.

One of my daughters is busy in a missional Southern Baptist church. The other is participating in preaching the gospel and aiding the needy through the local Salvation Army.

My wife and i attend according to God's calling on me, yet our home church is one block from our house.

The rest of family who are not nuclear vary in denominational bents.

Paul's words to Timothy, "Fight the good fight of faith," could better be stated, "Agonize the agony of faith(fulness)."

Some believe that salvation is for sin alone, yet are still struggling through this.

Some believe healing is included in this, and are struggling through this as well.

Some, akin to me are along the lines that God reveals Himself through relationship in Jesus Christ crucified, buried, and alive forevermore: in regards to His Word, His name/titles, the scriptures, worship/prayer, and according revelation ...and as well are struggling through several things, so it's probably no wonder that it's recognized here that the best we can do is to remain fixed in continuing confidence in Jesus.

He abides steadfast, faithful and true.

It is not my place to tell anyone what they should do but rely on Jesus to save them. (It's just that soteriology is thought of differently, and accordingly works out differently for different people).

All that can be told is that i fix confidence in Jesus for these things (and more) and He does much more than ever was thought promised in the first place.

What i'm saying is, if what you stick to is that scripturally soundly surely pointing to Jesus only, then this too will manifest as reality to you in time ...and times and seasons are not in my hands.

Shalom,
g

edited: lil' glitches

"...God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him...."
( Acts 10.38 )

Here we see that physical maladies are oppression of the devil.

And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.

But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. But he answered and said, IT IS NOT MEET TO TAKE THE CHILDREN"S BREAD AND CAST IT TO THE DOGS. And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table. Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

( Mt. 10.22-28 )

Here Jesus refers to healing and deliverance both as the bread of the children of God.

When taking part in the Lord's memorial supper, the love feast remembering Him in His death, you know what the grape juice (aka: new wine) is to cause us to recall: His blood shed for our sins.

Many fail to account for what the bread represents; but listen to Paul's words in 1st Corinthians 10.29-30:

For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily,
eateth and drinketh damnation to himself,
NOT DISCERNING THE LORD'S BODY:
FOR THIS CAUSE THERE ARE MANY
WEAK AND SICKLY AMONG YOU,
AND MANY SLEEP.

The (Children of God's) bread is to cause us to recall his cure for our bodily maladies.

Jesus, in the book of John plainly states that His body is given "for the (biological-)life of the world."

Healing is in the atonement.
Healing of both body and soul is as much part and parcel of the free gift of salvation in redemption as is regeneration.

By His stripes ye WERE healed.

Love, Hope, and Faith,
gregg

...I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.
Acts 20:31-32

Just tying up a loose end here.

It was not even considered, when the post above was written that there would be any mention of it on another thread, however due to the nature of the issue(s) being accused of, and for clarification on the above post, and any post from this quarter for that matter, it's provided, as well with some explanation about the whys of the way scripture is written and explained on this forum.
======================================================

Written to phanetheus:
"...Furthermore, the way you cut and paste and alter and disregard clear readings of scripture is frightening. For example, in another thread you said:

Jesus, in the book of John plainly states that His body is given "for the (biological-)life of the world."

Jesus didn't plainly state any such thing. Your methods are in line with the JWs. You intentionally ADD words to scripture and then claim that "clearly" that is what it states, just so it fits your theology. It's really quite incredible.
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In answer, phanetheus wrote:

In english it only says for the life of the world--and not eternal life, inferring biological life.

In the greek this word life in this verse means biological life--and not eternal life.

The word biological was placed in parenthesis because if read in context, it is referring to both biological life (primarily) and life after that (secondarily).

_________________________________________________________
It's assumed that the serious reader here will search out to see if text from here is true or not, and that interaction will follow if another does not see things the same way.

The accusation of "cut and paste and alter and disregard clear readings of scripture is frightening." is explained below:

Quotes from English Bibles --except for the A.uthorized V.ersion: the KJV-- after reference is given, the source is provided. More often than not, this will be a dynamic equivalent of the Greek/Hebrew originals.

If a suitable rendering is not found in english, at times you will find in parenthesis around a subset of words or one word giving greater clarity to the passage from the original lauguage.

If the above is not done, several various greek copies will be looked at, compared and a more literal translation is given through the use one or more words hyphenated together as a word string. As well,at the beginning or end of a qoute this will be indicated to be a transliteration.

All english translations are sadly lacking compared to the Hebrew Masoretic text of the Old Testament. If a more complete rendering of the Old Testament is not relative to the issue being discussed, an english translation will be given. When relative, a more clear picture of what images involved in the text relative is provided as a transliteration.

(it is very foolish to even think that most Hebrew and Greek words can find their replica with one english synonym. Many sentences go into explaining what each of these archaic words mean, and even then description is lacking.)

When there is a question here, experts (Protestant (Nazarene) friends with language doctorates) are checked with before something is brought to the table here.

(Yes, i do make mistakes, yet when realized these posts are returned to and edited.)

Shabbat Shalom,
g

edited: clarity and grammar

by BeYeDoers on 2010/8/14 10:15:38

Actually IN CONTEXT, John 6 is precisely about eternal life. It starts that way, and ends that way. In the middle is your "bread of life" verse. The teaching is that just as manna sustained them (Israel) physically, Christ is now the living bread of heaven, giving much more, that is, spiritual sustenance and everlasting life. Just because the Greek word is non specific, that doesn't mean you can make the passage say whatever you want. Non-specific is NOT the same thing as "specifically both". There are 2 Greek words translated "life", and you are correct that the one in John 6:33 is the more non-specific word. However, non-specific means context dictates, and if it can't be derived from context, we have to read it generally, not specifically, as you are doing.
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As we agree context dictates...and from what is read, correct me if i'm wrong, but from "...(v. 26, "Ye seek me because YE SAW...) labor not for meat which perisheth..." onto " v. 58, "Before Abraham was I AM" is not speaking about spiritual as being something seperate from the physical, but Jesus is rather showing how the two stand in relation to Him. The concourse of the passage leads from the here and now of the work-a-day regimen ultimately to Jesus acknowledging that He is Yaweh. In the transition from seeing (is believing) & laboring for bread to I AM, Jesus brings these things together as in Him they are completely relative to one another. He is hardly speaking about eternal life alone, and "I AM the bread of life (not eternal life, but that of what does exist here and now) is the transitional point of this passage. The passage moves from the physical base to things relative to Jesus, I AM.

Jesus is not saying only that this is how you have spiritual life, but this discourse is in relation (to the Pesach through the) feeding of the 5,000, Jn.5, --he provides a physical example of Mt. 6.33,-- as well as the minor point of 'waste-not-want-not.'

The simple fact of the murmuring about Jesus 'hard' words ("eat my flesh and drink my blood") shows the crowds failure to reconcile the physical with the spiritual.

Jesus didn't say "eat my spiritual flesh and drink my spiritual blood" either. Regarding Jesus saying "I give my body for the life of the world" and someone to come along and say, "oh Jesus was talking about the spiritual at that point in the passage" is more eisegetical than me saying He is talking about the physical there, because exegetically, he is literally talking about the physical at that point in the discourse.
____________________________________________

Furthermore, none of the passages you quoted earlier teach that ALL disease is oppression of the devil, only that THOSE were. There are plenty of diseases in scripture that mention nothing of the devil.
............................................................
Here is what was posted that you refer to:
"...God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him...."
( Acts 10.38 )

Here we see that physical maladies are oppression of the devil.
............................................................
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Did God create Adam with physical maladies?

Why do diseases mentioned in the scripture have to state they are of the devil???

While Jesus was on earth, how many people that he touched were maimed, sustained physical maladies, or died as a result?

God is good and creates all things good.

It took man subjecting himself to the serpent to screw everything up, and the curse of the Law is the result.

Besides, if anybody considers that any type of physical malady is from or of God, they need to read Job for starters.

If they still believe that garbage, they best not go against what God has ordained and done. Suffer and stay far away from that wicked minister of satan, the doctor. Why would somebody want to be free from something God in his infinite mercy and grace has provided out of the goodness of His heart?
____________________________________________

Look, I DO believe that God is our healer. I DO believe that it is His will to heal. I DO believe that scripture teaches many things about healing. I am not debating those things. I am debating how you are arriving at your conclusions, which leads to wrong conclusions that will actually tear down faith, not build it up, and breaks down the integrity of scripture, not supports it. You have to be careful with scripture and let it say what it says. You have been very adamant that scripture expressly teaches certain things, when it clearly doesn't. It may not teach the opposite of what you claim, and may in some cases imply some of the things you say...
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Exegesis forms the framework from which the so-called eisegesis comes, with exegetic cross-referencing to establish it as POSSIBLY valid to expound.

Teaching others, hardly any of it falls under the category of eisegesis ...though i am not by any stretch of the imagination adherant to typical Western biblical interpretation.

This is something that was not stated in the former post explaining of the whys in the ways scripture is used, but you are stepping closer than anyone else has even come, so the cards are going to be laid out on the table for everyone to see.

First, any reference given, no matter how short, implies the total context of a whole passage, whether this has been clarified to the reader of posts from here or not. (This is why bread was not mentioned when posting how Jesus claimed to give His body for the life of the world.)

1987, having moved from Nashville, TN to Metarie, LA, having settled into the new apartment, it was prayed for another teacher and fellowship to be part of.

The very next day, a Messianic Jew was waiting at my door when i got home, and he said God told him to come to my door and wait til' the one who lived there showed up. (He waited all of about 3 minutes). He was a former anathematised Rabbi, and now 'sleeps', though in the many hours of many many days spent with him, he trained me into scriptural studies, teaching me letters, numbers, root words, how to grasp prophecy, and so on of the ancient Hebrew Tanakh.

Aside from the fact of pointing out the presence of Jesus in everything, he never failed to emphasis that prophecy is always saying more than we will ever know. Through these 2 things, he led me into the Jewish way of Bible study, and the 4 modes of working through a passage of scripture.

Western thought only leaves room for history and grammar in relation to exegesis, which is the foundation and first mode of interpretation learned. However, with this, ministers contrive metaphors and allegory(sp?), using stories to emphasis their point. This is an abuse, and a greater eisegesis of scripture, straying from a passage's intent, more-so than i would ever even think of doing.

Jews consider all 4 methods exegesis, each mode of interpretation building on the former, (adding to the foundation and never detracting from it) though westernized Gentiles call foul, and consider it eisegesis.

Knowing the Bible is a Jewish book written by Jews, wouldn't it stand to reason that their method of interpretation holds more viability than the limitations of word definition, grammatical syntax (which in and of itself is often misunderstood), history, and commentaries?

Though what you read from here may seem strange at times, if you will just cross reference and meditate on the scriptures relative to what is stated, you will recognize it to not be contrary in any way to what is done throough the 1st of the 4 methods of interpretation.

If you look at the New Testament objectively, you will see that there is alot of eigesis (by western standards) of both prophecy and Law that are not right at all if we are to adhere to western methods of interpretation as the only correct way to do it.

Here's a few examples off the top of the noggin. These all lack the literal context, and are eisegetic compared to what they literally meant in the Old Testament :

- Jesus saying if you can believe, John the Dunker was Elijah.

- Matthew qouting Hos.11:1 saying, "I have called my son out of Egypt." was already fulfilled when used.

- When Mic. 5.1-2 is used, it is in reference to David's descendants (see: Gen. 48.7 and I Sam. 17.12)

- Paul using "i believed, therefore I have spoken" in II Cor. 4.13 is completely out of context ( by western reasoning) with the passage in Psalms it is drawn from.

- I Cor. 9.9 and I Tim 5.18 using the Law of Moshe regarding oxen to say this applies to those ministers.

There's alot more passages that are easily found just reading through the New Testament, especially prophecies.

Those examples mentioned above have been provided simply that others consider that using western mindset to comprehend oriental thought is faulty, and begins slipping up using only the first method of interpretation, that of historical cultural context in grammatical exegesis.

God bless you brother.
You warning was heeded always before you ever stated it, but to see one who looks deeper than what appears on the surface is quite encouraging. (This has been home in cyberspace since March, but you are the first who has looked deeper than just grammatics and stated such. There's prolly others who just click foreward wondering though.). Thanks for the good words. It never hurts to be told again and again.
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...But to claim that it "clearly" teaches what you have said is not even close to the mark. Your hermeneutic is frighteningly eisegetical, not exegetical. Be very careful, my friend.
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OK, maybe what is clear to me may not be to others, yet taken at face value, the passages surrounding the statement contested are talking in physical terms (aka:biological), and the passage in context with Jn. ch. 5 and 7 is surrounded by the physical being directly relative to the spiritual, and though vice versa is true, in either case they are inseperable from one another accounting all the events surrounding the concourse of the discourse.

(How many people do you know that reject the physical being spiritual? Heb. 11.3)

How can there be spiritual sustenance on earth without any physical life?

Jn. 6.26 starts with a contrasting opposition between the physical and spiritual, then Jesus brings them together as completely relative to one another.

Shabbat Shalom,
gregg

edited: grammar