You Cannot Quote the Law to Prove that God Hates Homosexuality

When people quote the Old Testament Law to prove that God condemns homosexuals and homosexuality, they are misusing the Bible. I know that sounds like an extreme statement, but it is based on one of Paul’s very strong themes that runs through the books of Galatians and Romans, and appears briefly in Colossians.

Paul taught that Christians are not under the Law. In Galatians he taught that to be under the Law was to be under a yoke of slavery. There are two ways to live, one is according to the oldness of the letter, or the oldness of the written code, and the other is to walk in the Spirit. Paul strenuously objected to the Christian teachers of his day who worked to keep other Christians bound to the Old Testament Law. These teachers found in the books of Acts and Galatians are often called Judaizers today. They taught that obedience to the Hebrew Torah was necessary for salvation. These advocates of the Law outraged Paul so much that he wished they would “castrate themselves!” (The Message, New Century Version, NRSV).

In Romans he taught 1) that sin is not taken into account where there is no Law, 2) that it is the Law that brings God’s wrath, 3) that where there is no Law there is no transgression, 4) that apart from the Law sin is dead, and 5) that we are not under Law but under grace.

You cannot quote the Law to Prove that God hates homosexuality.

Paul showed how the Law is related to the cross and to the forgiveness of sins in Colossians 2:13b-14 where he wrote, “He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.”

The Law stands against you. The Law stands in opposition to us. Therefore, Christ took away the Law, and nailed it to the cross.

Now I know that many of you are very familiar with the following Scripture verses, and that my clustering of these ten (10) verses together will not be convincing. For me, they are convincing. They are not taken from context. They ARE the context of everything that surrounds them.

You cannot quote the Law against homosexuality. It undermines this powerful, repeated testimony from Paul.

Romans 2:12--All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.

Romans 4:15--The law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.

Romans 5:13--Before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law.

Romans 6:14--Sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.

Romans 7:8b--Apart from law, sin is dead.

Galatians 3:10--All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."

Galatians 3:13--Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us,

Galatians 3:25--Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

Galatians 5:1--It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

Galatians 5:18--But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

Colossians 2:13b-14--He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.

If you insist on preserving the Law in the life of the Christian, you are bringing a curse on yourself and on everyone you convince to accept the yoke of the Law, which Christ died to deliver you from.

One more thing. I’m sure most of you will invoke the alleged distinction between the moral Law and the ceremonial Law. The Bible makes no such distinction. It can be inferred from a passage or two, but these “inferences” can in no way negate Paul’s clear denunciation of the Law in the Christian life.

Repeat: the Bible makes no distinction between the so-called moral Law and the so-called ceremonial Law.

The distinction between the so-called moral and ceremonial Law is a man-made distinction, perpetrated on the church to preserve the Law in our daily lives.

In the Bible, the Law is a UNITY. In its essence it is NOT divided. If you break the Law in regard to even a single thing, you are guilty of breaking the whole Law. “For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it,” (James 2:10).

As a Christian you cannot quote Leviticus to prove that God hates anything, including homosexuality. If you do, you bring the Law, in its entirety, back into effect, and crucify Christ afresh.

You cannot quote Leviticus to prove that God hates homosexuality.

You may be able to prosecute your case against homosexuals using other Bible passages, but not the two in Leviticus.

So drop Leviticus from your arsenal of ammunition against homosexuals, unless you are prepared to re-establish the Law in the Church--in its ENTIRETY.

Philologos, the thread is discussing whether or not we can quote the Leviticus (the Law) to prove that God hates homosexuality. This thread is not discussing Romans 1, it is discussing the validity of Christians quoting the Torah to prove what God hates.

No matter what you wrote, it remains true that you cannot quote Leviticus to prove that God hates homosexuality, and evidently homosexuals as well since they receive the death penalty.

Like I said, you may be able to prove that God hates homosexuals, or homosexuality, using other Bible passages, but quoting Leviticus is a gross and unjustified misuse of Scripture.

In Romans Paul taught 1) that sin is not taken into account where there is no Law, 2) that it is the Law that brings God’s wrath, 3) that where there is no Law there is no transgression, 4) that apart from the Law sin is dead, and 5) that we are not under Law but under grace.

Is it any wonder that he wrote to the Colossians: “He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.”

They are related to the topic, but not necessarily in this particular thread. My reply to you is that whatever you believe about your two questions, you cannot use the book of Leviticus to determine what is or is not sin.

Any attempt to invoke the Law against believers is an attempt to place them under the yoke of slavery Paul talks about in Galatians. Paul had little patience with people who fought to retain the Law in their Christian life.

One-by-one I want to deal with the Slam Passages, or Clobber Passages. Here I'd like to stay with Leviticus and the Law.

Quoting Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 to prove that God hates homosexuality is completely illegitimate because the Law can only bring God's wrath.

"The law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression."

This is why Christ did away with the Law, nailing it to the cross.

“He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.”

Forgiveness is intimately bound up with the cancellation of the Law. The Law brings wrath. The cancellation of the Law brings forgiveness. This is a spiritual truth. This is not simply a matter of argument. We must jettison the Law in our lives to receive forgiveness. To cling to the Law, to insist on the necessity of the Law, is to reject the deliverance Christ provided on the cross.

Dear Ronald,

I have some thoughts I'd like to share. Please be patient. I think this may be a longish post, and you don't need to reply to it. I would ask, though, that you let the scriptures I've quoted, sink deep down into your ears.

(EDIT: To clarify: in the following by 'New Testament' I mean the books of.)

Regarding 'law' in the lives of Christians, are you forgetting, perhaps, that when Jesus Christ came, there was no New Testament? And that 'the new testament in His blood' is fully intended to bring the knowledge of God into the HEARTS of His people, in a personal way. Again let me quote Hebrews 8:

10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Jesus Himself began His ministry with the word 'REPENT', (Mark 1), which is exactly what John the Baptist had been saying, being the last prophet to Israel under the Old Covenant.

Baptism for Jews was a new introduction to their faith, and what's more, the power of God was sooo in John Baptist's preaching, that people came to be baptised - to wash away their sins (Acts 22:16) and to ask what they could do to 'Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance,' John adds, 'and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.' (Luke 3:8)

Interesting, the emphasis is on a disowning of their fleshly inheritance through Abraham, despite the promises that one would be born of David's line (tribe of Judah) to deliver them. May you have disregarded the emphasis in the Old Testament in respect of God's mourning over sin, and His desire that His people also, should mourn over their sins, and the inevitable death to which sin leads?

These themes are not absent from the New Testament, so it is amazing you don't take Christ's fulfilment of the law as seriously as He did, when He actually died for us - not so that we could continue to sin (thereby rejecting His offer of salvation), but so that we could enter into His death (to make a genuine spiritual end of sin on an individual basis), and, on an individual basis, be raised to a NEW life.

This is the substance of Romans 5 - 8. But 'freely give us all things' has nothing to do with sin. Peter expresses it this way: to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: 2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, 3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: 4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. (2 Pet 1)

Both in Acts 3 (Peter speaking), and in Acts 13 (Paul speaking), both of whom refer to the prophets and the law (the covenant), and the need to hear 'that Prophet' of whom Moses spoke (Christ) there is no doubt that forgiveness of the sins defined in the OLD Testament, is the heart of the gospel. Nothing which Jesus said, in any way contradicted the spirit of the law in its intention to inform us about God's utter holiness, purity, and uncreated glory.

Note: Peter quotes Moses in full: 22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23 And it shall come to pass, [that] every soul, which will not hear that prophet, SHALL BE DESTROYED from among the people.

He goes on: 24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. 25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. 26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, SENT HIM TO BLESS YOU, IN TURNING AWAY EVERYONE OF YOU FROM HIS INIQUITIES. (Acts 3)

That is, those iniquities preached against all through the OLD Testament.

There is nothing wrong with a ministry to homosexuals, but any ministry depends upon the power of God by His Holy Spirit, to deal with the spiritual side of all sin.

Whether you preach healing first, or repentance, those who come to God by Jesus Christ, must acknowledge that He is, and they must expect to be recreated, And [to] have put on the new [man], which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him. ( Col 3:10)

There is no logic (or fairness to the hearers) to the message of salvation if they cannot be delivered from ALL sin. The extremity - Christ dying on a cross, the blood of the Lamb of God - is essential for some unbelievers to begin only to hope they might be able to be saved some day. For, if Christ cannot save to the uttermost, there is no hope for THEM. That's how their situation appears to them from inside their hearts and minds and bodies.

Can you see that? Or, at least, please receive it from me, as this is part of my testimony.

Moving on, I noticed in a post you said this: 'I have dealt with the so-called "Slam Passages" (Leviticus 18:22 & 20:13, Romans 1:18-32, etc.) to my own satisfaction.'

Doesn't it bother you that your 'own satisfaction' may not satisfy God? He is looking for those who are willing to adopt His entire pattern of thought over every matter He has disclosed to us, through the scriptures.

Even calling some of His word 'Slam Passages', indicates you have adopted the thinking of those with whom you associate, rather than being one who shares HIS mind, with them, as Paul entreats at the end of 2 Cor 5, (which would include all of GOD's definition of sin).

Returning to the relationship Christians should have with 'the law', here is one poem by Charles Wesley, which addresses it in some fulness:

'Tis finished! The Messiah dies,
Cut off for sins, but not His own:
Accomplished is the sacrifice,
The great redeeming work is done.

'Tis finished! all the debt is paid;
Justice divine is satisfied;
The grand and full atonement made;
God for a guilty world hath died.

The veil is rent in Christ alone;
The living way to heaven is seen;
The middle wall is broken down,
And all mankind may enter in.

The types and figures are fulfilled;
Exacted is the legal pain;
The precious promises are sealed;
The spotless Lamb of God is slain.

The reign of sin and death is o'er,
And all may live from sin set free;
Satan hath lost his mortal power;
'Tis swallowed up in victory.

Saved from the legal curse I am,
My Savior hangs on yonder tree:
See there the meek, expiring Lamb!
'Tis finished! He expires for me.

Accepted in the Well-beloved,
And clothed in righteousness divine,
I see the bar to heaven removed;
And all Thy merits, Lord, are mine.

Death, hell, and sin are now subdued;
All grace is now to sinners given;
And lo, I plead the atoning blood,
And in Thy right I claim Thy heaven!

As Paul asks: Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death:

(Please pause here. Think about this. There is no God-given right to a sexual relationship of any kind, when one is dead. 24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God? 25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven. (Mark 12)

Reading other parts of the New Testament, it is clear that even born again Christians may, or may not, marry, depending on the outworking of God's calling on their lives. (Matt 19:12, 1 Cor 7:1, 2, 39, 40) God does not give a choice to a man, to 'marry' a woman OR a man. That's because 'to avoid fornication', in the New Testament, includes avoiding homosexual liaisons. There are more than a dozen other places in the New Testament, where fornication is named as 'sin'.)

As Paul continues from Rom 6 above: (therefore)

that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For IF we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our OLD man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be DESTROYED, that henceforth we should NOT SERVE sin. (Rom 6)

Matt 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven... 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. 28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth. 25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. 26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am [he]. (John 4)

Dear Ready Mind,

You've written a lot here. Please allow me to answer one point.

You wrote: "In Leviticus, when God says that homosexuality is 'an abomination' this is an absolute statement. Rightly dividing the word of God, one will instantly recognize that the principle of abomination is true as an 'absolute,' apart from law."

In all seriousness, a great many things are called "abominations" in the Law.

Mainly different kinds of food.

God said, "No eating food the third day after it’s left out. That is an abomination, and the person that does eat it will bear his iniquity."

Leviticus 7:18 "And if any of the flesh of the sacrifice of his peace offerings be eaten at all on the third day, it shall not be accepted, neither shall it be imputed unto him that offereth it: it shall be an abomination, and the soul that eateth of it shall bear his iniquity."

Leviticus 11:10 "And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you."

Leviticus 11:11 "They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcasses in abomination.

Leviticus 11:12 "Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you."

Leviticus 11:13 "And these are they which ye shall have in abomination among the fowls; they shall not be eaten, they are an abomination: the eagle, and the ossifrage, and the ospray . . .

Leviticus 11:20 "All fowls that creep, going upon all four, shall be an abomination unto you.

Leviticus 11:23 "But all other flying creeping things, which have four feet, shall be an abomination unto you.

Leviticus 11:41 "And every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth shall be an abomination; it shall not be eaten.

Leviticus 11:42 "Whatsoever goeth upon the belly, and whatsoever goeth upon all four, or whatsoever hath more feet among all creeping things that creep upon the earth, them ye shall not eat; for they are an abomination.

Ready Mind, there are, I believe, over 100 food sources that are labeled abominations in the Law.

And then there is male homosexuality.

Leviticus 18:22 "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."

Sorry, but I'm not giving up my frog legs, or mussels, and certainly not my shrimp and my bacon.

I'm not being funny. When shrimp and bacon are included on the list of things called abominations, then the word abomination doesn't carry with it quite the thunder it does when applied to other...abominations.

Ready Mind, I don't think there is a Biblical basis for your insistence that

"When God says that homosexuality is 'an abomination' this is an absolute statement. Rightly dividing the word of God, one will instantly recognize that the principle of abomination is true as an 'absolute,' apart from law."

If you were correct, then we would still be forbidden to eat bacon, or crab, or shrimp. We know for a fact that there was nothing "absolute" about touching the skin of a pig or eating rabbit. So when you talk about "rightly dividing the word of truth," you really do need to consider how that relates to you.

Thank you for taking the time follow the link to the book. I hope it is a blessing for you, one way or another.

Hello again Ronald,

I've caught up with the posts made while I was writing.

You say
'In Romans Paul taught 1) that sin is not taken into account where there is no Law, 2) that it is the Law that brings God’s wrath, 3) that where there is no Law there is no transgression, 4) that apart from the Law sin is dead, and 5) that we are not under Law but under grace.'

All these statements are true, but you have missed out two vital chronological events (chronology being vital to God's plan of salvation through Christ, who came 'in the fulness of time'). They are:

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then [serveth] the law? It was added BECAUSE OF transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made;

(Romans 3:we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13 Their throat [is] an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps [is] under their lips: 14 Whose mouth [is] full of cursing and bitterness: 15 Their feet [are] swift to shed blood: 16 Destruction and misery [are] in their ways: 17 And the way of peace have they not known: 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes. 19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Note: 'for the remission of sins that are past')

Hebrews 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

'He appeared TO PUT AWAY SIN by the sacrifice of Himself'.

God knew that men could never become righteous by their own efforts. His 'grace' is that He chose to come to fulfil all righteousness on our behalf, by believing and continuing to believe in which, we can be saved FROM SIN.

And, therefore, from eternal death.

That's what the gospel is about.

It's about having a hope of RESURRECTION from the dead.

Hi Ronald,

A few more thoughts.

You said within an earlier post: 'Quoting Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 to prove that God hates homosexuality is completely illegitimate because the Law can only bring God's wrath.'

But that's exactly why God ever mentioned homosexual behaviour, giving its context in the worship of other gods, but when He poured out His wrath on Christ, instead of on us, He established for ever that He included homosexual practices with every other outworking of sin.

There is now, no reason not to proclaim with gladness to those who practise homosexuality, that they can be delivered from their bitter torments.

Regarding 'the law' in New Testament writings, in one place Paul says: 9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, AND if there be any OTHER thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; (1 Tim 1)

How does it work?

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But AFTER that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Justification by faith necessarily follows having been convicted of sin. Homosexuals may have a problem though, because of what happens when they choose not to retain God in their knowledge, namely, 'a reprobate mind'.

The next stage is described in 2 Thess 2: 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

The end of Rom 1 contains the same thesis, as does 2 Timothy 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

Note the progression expressed in Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.

The above show us a progression into spiritual confusion. First of all a person tries to deceive God, (big mistake) imagining (important word) He cannot 'see' their heart (which He can, all the time), and then, he begins to believe his deception has worked. (That's called 'self-deception'.)

By now, he has made himself a prey to other deceivers, who can more easily deceive him, because long ago he stopped acknowledging, and lost contact with, truth.

Therefore, when any homosexual comes to Christ - The Truth - there is a lot of sorting out to do. But one thing is certain: he cannot remain in self-deception or confusion, unless he resists the working of the Holy Spirit.

Remember, the Holy Spirit glorifies Christ, the Truth. There can be no mixture in Him. Had HE sinned, He would not have been the spotless Lamb of God.

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me; 10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; 11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. 13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you.

I mention the last point because you seem to believe that God changed somewhere between the giving of the law, and coming 'full of grace and truth', the (whole) word made flesh. Yet you must know that God does not change. 'Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.' James 1:17

That's why we can depend on His word, and, upon Him for judgement, as much as believers can depend upon Him for mercy.

There is a very serious side to suggesting He was not wholly pure and holy. Mark 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation: 30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

I hope you will give deep consideration to these thoughts.

I forgot one other thing you said:

'In Galatians he [Paul] taught that to be under the Law was to be under a yoke of slavery.'

The 'yoke' is 'slavery' to SIN (the wages of which is death, which, as you know, we all can forget about very easily without the law outside, or within), and it was prophesied against by Isaiah 10:27 And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] his burden shall be taken away from off thy shoulder, and his yoke from off thy neck, and the yoke shall be destroyed because of the anointing.

1 John 2:26 These [things] have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

But there is a yoke for the Christian:

Matt 11:28 Come unto me, all [ye] that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke [is] easy, and my burden is light.

Having laid aside sin, we are to take that yoke.

Why would you not also wish this for homosexual practitioners?

Ronald,
i was going to make this a PM to you, but i thought it best to make it public, in the case i was wrong in what i'm about to write.

the moderators on this forum are good, Godly men, with a whole lot of love and patience. i can say that because i have sorely tested their love and patience more times than i'd like to admit to.

one of the few things that makes them uneasy is if somebody has "agenda", other than that of Revival, or of the Jesus Christ and Him Crucified and Resurected.

they are not gunned up for censorship, nor are they "legalists" or "pharisees", quite the contrary, BUT they dont countenance posters that have an agenda.

one instance in particular, i wont mention a name, or even the agenda, but this poster was just single-minded and vociferous in foisting his agenda onto the forum, and he was reasoned with, and pm'ed, and lovingly corrected, etc. and it went on for quite a while, actually threw the forum into a minor uproar....minor, because when it was apparent, that this brother, wasnt going to submit to any authority, he was banned from posting, and i cant speak for the moderators, but knowing them in the Spirit, i am more than certain they took no joy in doing this, nor do i take any joy in writing this public post, that would seem to urge you to cease on this topic of yours.

and i say that, because the way i read it, you'll just continue, kind of like a samurai going down with his blade flashing, and when your inevitable "ban" comes, you'll just go forth and say, "look at those "biblical bigots" on SI, they couldnt bear my 'teachings' so they threw me off the forum"......i hope and pray that doesnt happen, but it does seem to be going in that direction, and to slander such a God honoring website, would indeed be sin, compounded.

....and the onus of SI is canted soley towards hearts afire for God reviving His Church in this time NOW. Its not whether or not the continuing practice of homosexuality is spiritually covered by the Blood of Christ.......you made your point, abuntantly, this "Church" has NOT accepted it, we have reasoned with you, patiently, Scripturally and i believe lovingly, yet you continue with this "one horse agenda", so.........

what's next?

You ever listen to Duncan Campbell speak of his days being allowed by God to witness revival on the lonely hebridean Islands off Scotland, circa 1949-53? Marvelous stuff, and its right here on this website!

well, God love you, neil

Hi Neil,

Thanks for your note. I have no problem with your decision to send it publicly.

Christian (HmmHmm) posted a reply, and among other things suggested that I consider my thesis regarding Luke 17:34-36, so I decided it was probably time to discuss some of the passages used against gay and lesbian believers. I started with a thread on the illegitimate use of the Law, namely Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13.

I realize that my input here has provoked a strong response. Philologos has started a thread titled, "The Doctrinal Delusions of Ronald Goetz," where he has taken it upon himself to critique "Jesus and the Six Homosexuals." I am glad that he is reading the book. I don't know if any others from SI have followed his example and requested a PDF copy or not.

Neil, as it stands now, I am discussing Leviticus at the suggestion of Christian, and replying to the criticisms of Ron (Philologos).

One more thing, Neil. A handful of people have "reasoned" with me. The bulk of people here seem to think that cutting and pasting long blocks of Bible text constitutes "reasoning," and it doesn't. The number of times I've been accused of heresy, of being a false teacher, and had people quote Romans 16:17 (mark and avoid) would take a while to tally.

I haven't been here long enough to know whether the moderators are considering banning me from the site or not. I have seen one thread closed, the one on "the evils of free will." The poster was flaming. But I haven't heard anything from the moderators warning me to stop posting.

The only comments directed to me encouraged me to look at the entirety of Scripture on this topic, which I have done. And Ron's criticisms seem to merit reply, especially when he insists on doing things like insisting I have mispunctuated things that are not mispunctuated. His criticisms aren't too sound at this point.

Revival often comes when churches are humble enough to receive Bible teachings that were there all the time, but were simply missed or ignored.

Gratefully,

Ron

Disciple, it would be virtually impossible for me to reply to every response. I have had scores of replies, and each reply has anywhere from, oh, three to ten separate thoughts.

Yes, I "have completely ignored many of the responses." The majority of the posts directed at me denounce me as a false teacher, a teacher of heresy. I don't need to defend myself against my multitude of accusers.

God said, "I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward."

"As for God, his way is perfect; the word of the LORD is flawless. He is a shield for all who take refuge in him."

God is my Encourager: "But thou, O LORD, art a shield for me; my glory, and the lifter up of mine head."

"We wait in hope for the LORD; he is our help and our shield."

I don't need a defence against them, Disciple. Christ is my defence.

I often take refuge in God's words to Jeremiah:

"If you have run with footmen and they have tired you out, then how can you compete with horses? If you fall down in a land of peace, how will you do in the thicket of the Jordan?"

God bless you Disciple. May God bless your life and ministry, and fulfill that promise to do great and exceedingly beyond what you can hope or imagine.

Ron

it should be kind of obvious that your thesis isnt gaining any traction on this forum....and really, if you noticed, nobody has gotten nasty or engaged in vituperative glass breaking in your direction.

there is a close knit, kind of neat cyber fellowship that God has allowed to develop over the last 8 plus years, and it isnt merely confined to mere posts. SI does have face to face conferences, some webcast. There is a telephone conference regular prayer meeting, i have been so blessed as to speak with and meet with a few posters here.

and let me tell you this, at least from my own heart, if i considered your thesis correct and lining up with Scripture, the "fear of the crowd" would not deter me from standing alongside of you....and i have a feeling there are other brothers and sisters here who have no fear of man's opinion either, but that's why i said to you before, i cant go along with you on your thesis, coz its just outright wrong, and overwhelmingly every one of these saints on this forum feel the same, as led by God the Holy Ghost.

which is why i asked, "what's next?" is your ministry comprised of just this one thesis? If it is, you might be in for some rough sledding, and i dont mean that in any mean-spirited threatening way, just a statement of fact.

there is a Spirit filled harmony here, so once you've unpacked this thesis of yours, you've read the reactions, there have been no "yes and amens" to it, unless you have something else to unpack that edifies the Body of believers, why would you ever, for the Love of Christ, wish to continually "jam" your thesis down the throats of this humble fellowship?

You gave your "word", it was not recieved, so why hang out and hang on? Such a stance will only bring dissesion to this fellowship, and Heaven forbid, and i've seen this before on this forum, at times, we've had such wonderful breakthroughs here, wonderful prophesy, much love and Grace in Christ, and literally the devil will send unclean spirits to disrupt the love and harmony in Christ on this forum. Hence, lets say we get posters with maybe 2 to 10 posts, popping up on here, and mounting a full throated defense of your thesis, starting a nasty cyber brawl, that can only come from the enemy. We are not unaware of his schemes.

in all honesty, i, at times have been involved in the most intemperate dialogue, disruptive, non-loving, and at the end of the day, just feel terrible. its my flesh coming to fore, and let me tell you this, EVERYTIME, i got out of hand, and asked forgiveness from these saints, it was always given, Bless Jesus.

so Ron, unless you want to do a 180 degree turn and repent of this thesis of yours, why would you WANT to hang out here, unless of course, God can use us to dissuade you from this perilous course you are on.

i beg you please, please, repent, this is wrong, this teaching of yours, what can i, a mere man, say to you to dissuade you from this course? Only God the Holy Spirit has such Words, and my prayer is that you listen to the Small Still Voice, and repent.

baring that, i think it would wise and noble if you left.

You wrote:
"Revival often comes when churches are humble enough to receive Bible teachings that were there all the time, but were simply missed or ignored."

i beg to differ, revival only comes when God decides Revival will come, fore He is Sovereign in Revival, only when He can TRUST us with Revival, humility in the saints is a given, burnt out worms of Christ is what He desires to be the human channels of Revival, and hear me on this, got this from my older brother, Revival will NOT be televised.

so please, repent and bring something sweet and good to the table and stay awhile, otherwise you should leave, that i beg you.

neil

i'm wrong in suggesting that you leave the forum, thats not right of me, it lacks Grace, and is willful, and i am sorry.

however i do beg you to reconsider your thesis.

neil

Hi Ready-Mind,

Let me respond to a few of your points.

You wrote, "The apostles said that the gentile believers do not need to be bound to the Mosaic law in any way, but they never said anywhere that Grace is license for perversion."

"Once again Ronald, you are turning the grace of God into laciviousness."

Ready-Mind, I don't know why you would say that about me. My thesis in this thread is the inadmissibility of quoting the Law to define sin. That has nothing to do with a "license for perversion" or "turning the grace of God into lasciviousness." Nothing.

When Jesus discussed the Six Homosexuals and declared that half of them were acceptable to God, it was the Messiah who was declaring homosexuals clean. Jesus accepted practicing gay and lesbian believers. I will not call unclean what Christ has declared clean.

You wrote, "Concupiscence = ἐπιθυμία, epithumia "desire for that which is forbidden." (Thayer) This applies to any form of lusting of forbidden things which have found their wellspring in the fallen human heart. Homosexuality is one of those things."

Not so, Ready-Mind. Jesus took gay and lesbian relationships off the "forbidden list," along with shellfish and squid. I will not call unclean what Christ has declared clean.

Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 do not trump the words of Christ.

You said, "What you are saying is that all of those testimonies are bupkis."

What? Are you serious? I never said anything that remotely resembles that.

Do you see why interacting with people on these forums is frequently frustrating? People keep putting words in my mouth and thoughts in my head that simply aren't there.

You may think that you can extrapolate from a simple assertion (like "You can't quote the Law to prove that God hates homosexuality") and draw a whole list of things that I *must* believe as well. But you can't.

Don't feel bad. (I know--I'm sure you don't!) Many people have assumed that I believe this or that, based on something that *they* think flows logically from what I've written, when in fact I believe nothing of the sort.

You asked, "Are you committing the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit? Are you calling the Holy Spirit through them a liar?"

No, not at all. This is an example of where your leaps of logic lead you.

Ready-Mind, you said, "I still am not able to agree that you cannot use this statement in Leviticus."

1) Do you believe that the ability to quote Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 is an essential weapon in ministry to gay and lesbian believers?

2) After Paul warned us of all the negative consequences of living under the Law, do you still intend to place people, many of whom are believers, under the Law?

3) Aren't the usual verses cited in the Greek scriptures adequate for your purposes?

it is abuntantly clear you have no desire other than to jam your one issue thesis down the throats of the saints on this forum, to foster confusion and contention, and i ask why?

surely you see what you are doing, surely you see that no "yes and amen's' are being given to your stance that Jesus gave his blessing to the practice of homosexuality.

having not listened to reason, my prediction is that you wont be around this forum for very long.

Dear Neil and Compton,

Thank you for these thoughtful replies. Believe me when I say I am giving them careful consideration. Forgive the overly-long post, but you both deserve complete responses.

Neil, you wrote:

"There is a close knit, kind of neat cyber fellowship that God has allowed to develop over the last 8 plus years, and it isnt merely confined to mere posts. SI does have face to face conferences, some webcast. There is a telephone conference regular prayer meeting, i have been so blessed as to speak with and meet with a few posters here.... There is a Spirit filled harmony here.... Unless you have something else to unpack that edifies the Body of believers, why would you ever, for the Love of Christ, wish to continually 'jam' your thesis down the throats of this humble fellowship?"

This is one of the most effective replies I have received here at SI.

There are several verses that echo what you have written, which have concerned me. One is Proverbs 6:19, which says that one of the things that are detestable to God is "a man who stirs up dissension among brothers." While there seems to be no dissent within this group, the idea still applies.

A second verse of concern to me is Proberbs 20:3, "It is to a man's honor to avoid strife, but every fool is quick to quarrel." I have tried to avoid quarreling (believe it or not!), at least petty quarreling, but the proverb applies nonetheless.

Needless to say, the Bible is filled with role-models who refused to relent in their message, no matter what their detractors said about them (heretic, false teacher, etc.) or felt about them (conspiring to murder). (I won't bother to name any--anyone here could list a dozen without thinking twice.) In fact, these sorts of women and men are exalted in the Bible.

So you see, the heroes of the Bible, the book that has shaped my life more than any other, doesn't encourage me to withdraw from conflict. It tells me that conflict is one of the defining qualities of the man of God.

Neil, let me offer the following paraphrase of what you wrote to me:

"Ron, unless you can give us something we can accept as edifying, please leave us alone. We're trying to accomplish something here, and you're not helping."

For many of us, that appeal is much more effective than denunciations, warnings, and name-calling.

Campbell, you wrote:

"You should consider owning this failure, rather then blaming your audience.... You still have the problem of using this single possible implication to overcome multiple explicit prohibitions and warnings on homosexuality. Although your book was passionately and enthusiastically argued, your sincerity could not make up for the clear deficit in this approach.... If you ask for tolerance and civility, you have it. If what you really want is approval for your interpretation of scripture, you are being unreasonable."

First of all, thank you for reading the book, even though you are not persuaded. No problem with that, obviously! And thank you for your level response.

I mentioned in the book's introduction that I was focusing on the single passage in Luke, and not discussing the entire anti-homosexuality case. I knew this was a relatively unusual way (!) of interpreting Luke 17, and that it deserved a full, book-length treatment. I also knew that it would not convince people who adamantly disagreed with the implications.

But as you said, "You still have the problem of using this single possible implication to overcome multiple explicit prohibitions and warnings on homosexuality."

Actually, I don't have that problem. I have arrived at a completely Biblical understanding of the passages in Leviticus, Romans, I Corinthians, and elsewhere. And, which will not surprise you, I have found that verse for verse the case is very weak.

People have challenged me with these passages from day one. It was my desire, however, to focus on one thing at a time, starting with Jesus and the Six Homosexuals. After Christian challenged me on this point, I decided it was time to address one of the passages, and I selected the two verses in Leviticus.

Then add to all this Ron Bailey's decision to attempt a thorough critique my book.

You can see my present quandary. On the one hand many people are challenging me to respond to Leviticus, Romans, I Corinthians, etc., and others wish I would go away and leave them alone. I can't respond to people who say my Bible is limited to Luke 17 without being a burden on those who feel I am trying to force my "agenda" down their throats.

Finally, I appreciate your personal offer of "tolerance and civility," but I have received dozens of replies that were anything but tolerant or civil. And they are wearisome.

Dear Ronald,

I noticed your comment to Neil, where you seem to have misunderstood my reason for posting blocks of scripture. It is not I, who seeks to 'reason' with you, but God.

Beware. Beware of making yourself the centre of attention in all these discussions. You are not. Jesus Christ is.

I notice that you quoted from Romans 2, after 'the goodness of God leads you repentance' (which applies to the end of Rom 1: 'For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;'

You did not quote the rest of the context. It is:13 '(For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) 16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ ...'

Verse 16 is salutory. This man, Christ Jesus, died to destroy the works of the devil.

This is no mean thesis on Paul's part. He has hung out with men all his working life. He knows what they do. The comment by philologos that keepers of the law would not practice homosexuality, is indeed true. However, it was from the INability of men (and women) to keep the law, that Christ came to save us. His comment about those on whom the tower of Siloam fell, is an indication of His perspective on sin.

As several others have brought to your attention, He did not come to change the law, but to establish it - fulfil it - and for those who desired to be unyoked from the slavery of sin through faith in Him (the power of His death and resurrection), to send the Holy Spirit whereby He Himself, with His Father, can dwell within the believing heart. From experience though, I can tell you that if you are looking at an idol, you won't see Christ.

Hebrews 2:14 'Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16 For verily he took not on [him the nature of] angels; but he took on [him] the seed of Abraham. 17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto [his] brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things [pertaining] to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.'

The phrase 'like unto his brethren', is not a reference to Him sinning as they did. The scriptures state He did not sin. It is a reference to Him having taken a human body.

(Peter states: 22 'Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed [himself] to him that judgeth righteously: 24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. 25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.'

Note: 'that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness'. This is what Paul says in Romans 6.)

Your thread title: 'You Cannot Quote the Law to Prove that God Hates Homosexuality' is entirely reminiscent of a very famous statement in scripture, which also directly contradicted (spoke against) the word of God. The one speaking, simply stated the direct opposite of what God had said. Of this one, the Lord Jesus Christ (God) made His reply while He was on earth, recorded for us by John.

'He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.' (8:44)

Note: I am not accusing you of being a serpent, or Satan. But, you are, unmistakably emulating his mindset.

Gen 2:9 'And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.'

16 'And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.'

Then God made Eve.

Gen 3:4 'And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.'

Notice how the serpent made it sound as if God wasn't telling them something...? Whereas Adam had been having fellowship with God with no barrier. Now, Adam is invited to doubt God's integrity, in just one short phrase 'God doth know'. In fact, God had been entirely honest with Adam, and Adam did 'know' all of God's heart.

Then the serpent told them a bit of truth - 'your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.'

And that's what came to pass when they ate. At that moment, as their peace with God departed, they discovered God had been wholly truthful with them all along.

But now, men and women are 'as gods', except they renounce the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and eat from the tree of life (Christ).

If you understand this, you understand that the two trees are mutually exclusive. And, that until 'the tree of the knowledge of good and evil' was hewn down for us through Christ's death, there was no escape from its roots and trunk and branches and fruit in the lives of men and women.

But now: 'of him are ye IN Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:' (1 Cor 1:30) and,

John 15:2 'Every branch IN ME that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. 9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. 11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and [that] your joy might be full.' (John 15) (Note 'joy' again, in Heb 12:1-4)

But also: 'Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 3 Forbidding to marry, [and commanding] to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

4 For every creature of God [is] good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: 5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. 6 If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.' 1 Timothy 4:1

So, you seem to be saying you are ready to have the secrets of your heart judged by Jesus Christ (Rom 2), because you want to be judged without the law. Did I understand you correctly?

Perhaps this is why Paul wrote later in 1 Cor 11:

26 'For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink [this] cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of [that] bread, and drink of [that] cup.

29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

30 For this cause many [are] weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.'

Heb 12:11 'Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby. 12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees; 13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed. 14 Follow peace with all [men], and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: 15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble [you], and thereby many be defiled; 16 LEST THERE BE ANY FORNICATOR, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.'

Beware. Beware of being unable to live without instant gratification. It leads to implacability, (Rom 1:31), where even God, with His great offer of reconciliation, can be rejected without a further thought.

Isaiah 1:15 'And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.'

Isaiah 28:12 'To whom he said, This [is] the rest [wherewith] ye may cause the weary to rest; and this [is] the refreshing: yet they would not hear.'

Isaiah 59:2 'But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid [his] face from you, that he will not hear.'

'Let it not be! How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?' (Rom 6:2)

Apart from your altering God's definition of 'sin' beyond recognition, you have not answered Paul's question.

I know what you've written in your posts, but as yet you have not addressed how you can quote Rom 8:3 'For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God'

while at the same time promoting practises of 'sin in the flesh'.

You are saying the opposite of Rom 8:4. Please explain.

If you are able.

If not, please take the whole counsel of God into your thesis, and let HIS word dwell in you richly in all wisdom.

My thanks in advance.

Your prior post to Ron G., i must tell you, is some very adroit exegesis. (first time i ever used that word, 'exegesis' my sister)

going from Genesis, to John, to Romans, to 1st Corinthians, back to Isaiah! really good unpacking of Scripture, what i would call 'forthtelling', instead of the more theolically correct term, which i believe is "exegesis"? yes?

(side note to Ron G, if you read this, i did not write this to my sister, to "pile on" to you...no no no, please understand, thats not my heart, i just want to encourage her, as opposed to discouraging you)

Beloved sister, the verse in Genesis, i've always found so compelling is this:

"Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."

if you'll allow me, let me go back two verses, and post up the ESV translation also which is the version i daily read:
_______________________________________________________
1Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

2And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

3But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
______________________________________________________

thats where it all starts! this tiny little question of the serpent:
"Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?"

"hath God said....?"

in the ESV, it reads:

""Did God actually say...?"

its so so subtle, thats the poison right there, the serpent plants the seed of doubt, mixes in the tiniest truth, ie,

"5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.(KJV)

right serpent, then we WILL know good and evil, but what will we do?

and you could take that, into what i call Paul's "torment" of Romans 7:7-25 which is arguably one of the most transparent honest authentic confessions of the tension between spirit and flesh:

"For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate." Romans 7:15(ESV)

We know when we are doing BAD. We just KNOW it!

But then we play games with ourselves, or help us, play games with God, and breath that tricksy lil question:

"Did God actually say....(fill in the blank)......?"

or as satan said to Jesus in the wilderness, "IF you are the Son of God........".

"If"....can you imagine that? satan just playing games.

"Did God actually say?"...games, lies and games.

really good forthtelling my sister, made me prayerfully think.

in Jesus love, neil

this is NOT to hector Ron G, i was just listening to one fo the first sermons i ever heard, excepting those from my home church pastor, dear Ted.

its called "Fundamentalism versus Apostasy" preached by Ian Paisley back in 1969.

http://www.sermonaudio.com/playpopup.asp?SID=6863

(i couldnt find it here, so i went to sermonaudio)

I know dear Ian has caused quite a stir in the UK thru the years, but when i got saved, i was led to an Assemblies of God church, which was born in the Azusa Street Revival of 1906.

so alongwith daily reading of Scripture, i began to search on the web, in 2002, the term, "revival, which led me here to Sermonindex, to fireonthealtar.com and to several of Ian's early sermons in the 1960's, and i've always loved the man, he taught me a lot, as well as Duncan Campbell did.

Both of these preachers, one Irish, one Scotsman, helped shape me in Christ, and this sermon, to me, is very good.

i believe one should lean on Jesus and God the Holy Spirit to shape one's ministry, as well as leaning and learning from various men of God to shape their ministry, and Duncan Campbell and Ian Paisley are two i've been led to choose. i want to look for the Good and True in Christ.

God bless you all, neil

actually here's a better way to ascertain the value of coinage:

http://coinflation.com/

and a pre-82 copper penny is worth

$0.0222077

and wait for it, a nickel is now worth:

$0.0538977

so save every nickel, i'm very serious

love, neil

I'm a bit confused, as it appears Mr. Goetz has had an agenda from the start, if you take a look at his initial posts. He found this site because he was googling the verses in Luke that he bases all of his book off of. He's here to "share a 'gem' from Gospel with us" and promote his new literary work, "Jesus and the Six Homosexuals" or something like that.

No agenda..........?

Really?

Also Leo_Grace, I'm happy to see you posting. I never posted while you were more active in the past, because I was only lurking at the time, but I really hope you continue to post. I always enjoyed reading your thoughts.

Since we're all being frank with one another, I would like to say to all, that STDs affect many people, not just homosexuals. The pursuit of vaccines is legitimate to reduce the sum of human misery, and to prolong the lives of those whose have been wrecked by the sins of others, that they may live to hear the gospel and believe it.

We are now vaccinating our early teenage girls against cervical cancer. The youngest person I ever saw have her womb removed for that disease, was only 13 years old. Now; I hope there is no-one here who thinks she was 'responsible' for having contracted that disease.

If there was one unmistakable sign of God's unconditional love to mankind in the short years before Jesus went to the cross, surely it was His fulfilments of His own command to His disciples, to 'Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.' (Matt 10:8). He did not qualify this command with 'unless they died of ... (eg AIDS)'. He was utterly passionate about healing, as we see in Mark 3:

5 And when he had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts, he saith unto the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched [it] out: and his hand was restored whole as the other. 6 And the Pharisees went forth, and straightway took counsel with the Herodians against him, how they might destroy him. 7 But Jesus withdrew himself with his disciples to the sea: and a great multitude from Galilee followed him, and from Judaea, 8 And from Jerusalem, and from Idumaea, and [from] beyond Jordan; and they about Tyre and Sidon, a great multitude, when they had heard what great things he did, came unto him. 9 And he spake to his disciples, that a small ship should wait on him because of the multitude, lest they should throng him. 10 For he had healed many; insomuch that they pressed upon him for to touch him, as many as had plagues. 11 And unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God.

20 And the multitude cometh together again, so that they could not so much as eat bread. 21 And when his friends heard [of it], they went out to lay hold on him: for they said, He is beside himself. 22 And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils. 23 And he called them [unto him], and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? 24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 25 And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand. 26 And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end. 27 No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house. 28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: 29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation: 30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit. 31 There came then his brethren and his mother, and, standing without, sent unto him, calling him. 32 And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee. 33 And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren? 34 And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! 35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

A lot has changed when Jesus died.

The Old Testament with all it's external rituals, fleshy and earthy similitude's were shadows of good things to come, when a better way came.

God looked at sin with great indignation in the Old Testament because there was nothing to satisfy Him but only obedience if men would just follow a "likeness" of what eventually would solve all man's problems and would appease the wrath of God over mankind.

God's hate for sin has changed. Christ being the offering for sin appeased His wrath.

We are forgetting the great cost to which why Christ died to usher in an everlasting righteousness of GRACE through faith.

Grace is the paramount solution to all things sinful, it is the remedy, it's the Christ the son of the living God, it is the balm. There is nothing that will satisfy a man more than Grace.

Grace and Truth came by Jesus Christ. This is the defining factor. It removes all the IF AND's or BUT's. It satisfies forever God's demands, it answers man's quest to know God.

If any man adds a word above and beyond what Grace is all about is legalistic and should be avoided at all cost. It all looks right on the surface, but deep down it's Old Testament, it's filthy rags, it's wine skin that has been used too much and it's contents have gone sour.

Religions hate grace, the flesh hates grace. They hate the name of Jesus Christ that brought it into existence.

Much has changed since the Old Testament. The Jews no longer are under the law, and Gentiles are no longer aliens and foreigners from the commonwealth of Israel, the grace of God has been shown to all men. And God looks upon the New Adam, the Administer of Grace and Truth, the One who has appeased His anger, the Jeremiah, the Moses, the Abraham, the Daniel, all these men who have placed themselves as an advocate between God and His people. Who sought reconciliation and peace for his people even if it meant the cost of their own life.

We have got to remember that God loves this world, soo much that He gave His only begotten Son.

When you just stop and think about those words, think about the darkness to which God had sent His Son into. The world to which Jesus was born into was "darkness", there was no light. For 400 years men groped in the dark, looking for a urim and thummin, anything, a word from God and God wasn't speaking at all. There was no prophet for over 400 years. Our minds can't grasp that. For over 400 years there was no illumination of any kind, nothing. The sermons were not anointed, God wasn't speaking through any man. They would read from the holy book but there was no change in people. The people, the priests, the sacrifices were as dead as the poor animal that lay across the altar.

All manner of sin was in manifestation. And God decides to send His Son in that mess.

Look at God for a moment. God sends His Son in gross darkness. He drops a child into the midst of hungry wolves that would love to tear Him apart.

What I am trying to convey here folks is that God's tolerance for sin is not the same as our tolerance. We think because there is so much sin going on in the world that Jesus has to come back and save us from it, or that God needs to destroy it quickly.

We have got to believe that the blood of Jesus has not only atoned for man's sin but also appeased the wrath of Almighty God. Christ's blood hasn't worn out through the ages for it to lose it's beneficial affects.

This comes back to Grace and how much cost was paid to obtain it, even to the downfall of Satan.

When we see an Earthquake, or some other natural calamity, we should not look at it as the Judgement or the wrath of God, but rather we should look upon it as the goodness of God, for such calamities brings about repentance.

" Paul, the very apostle of grace, used the Present passive indicative form of the verb to express this truth. It should be translated "IS BEING REVEALED." God's wrath is not a PAST tense but a PRESENT reality

I should hope so.

We have His anger expressed towards us who need chastisement.

The wrath of God is towards those "Who hold the truth in unrighteousness". It's these that reject the message of the gospel, having the truth and barring the door for anyone to come in. These are wicked folk.

I understand what your saying and thank you for bringing that out and clarifying it more discreetly.