Report Reveals Salaries of Megachurch Pastors

That goes a long way from having all things in common, none too much and none too little.

An interesting report. Some of you seem outraged over this, and I can understand why. However, being that the New Testament never establishes compensation guidelines for a minister, I don't think that comments such as "SICK" are in keeping with the spirit of the Scriptures. Such seems to be born of a cynical spirit rather than the Spirit of God.

The senior pastor of my church has over 3,000 people charged to his care. He makes it a point to try and memorize everybody's name and face. The second time I visited the church as a guest, as I walked out the door, he shook my hand and said, "It was nice to have you back again today Jimmy." He regularly calls members in our congregation just to say hello, and responds to e-mail. He is very involved in the life of our church. He even is part of a cell group.

He starts his day at 3 am, and ends it at about 10 pm. He preaches about 4-5+ times a week, and is ultimately in charge of dozens of ministries within our church. He's pastored our church for 15 years, growing it from about 500 people to 3,000 during that time. He's a very loving man, in love with the Lord and his people. He teaches and rebukes. He doesn't play games.

And yes, my pastor makes 6 figures. And frankly, I am glad he does. He deserves every penny.

Truly, I look @ how a particular ministry will spend their money, not concerning myself with what it takes in. The same with a pastor to me. I rejoice if someone makes more money than I. Bless God! But, if that ministry or pastor has the love of money abiding in them, I find that to be sad indeed; for then I know other evils lurk within its walls. But, bless God for a rich child of the King who is meek & lowly.

Amen Yeshuasboy. I've known some ministers who give 20+ percent of their income back into the church, not to mention the money they personally give to other things. Some aren't so generous no doubt. But many are.

Some news people in the area around here recently got upset, after discovering that Franklin Graham, the head of Samaritan's Purse and the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association, makes about half a million dollars a year between the two programs. I say good for him. He runs two amazing organizations that are changing the world, and has a lot of responsibility and things he must give an account for.

And then there are those who are in 'ministry' for the income it provides...to these people I turn a deaf ear.

I worked in a Christian ministry for 15 years. The director was paid. The first one was a man of God. For the second one it was merely a job...

And then these people make others feel guilty for not supporting their ministry...wonder what George Mueller would say about this? or Corrie ten Boom? or ????

Obviously, these mega-preachers are not in servant leadership...

[EDIT] Wonder if these preachers will preach on the deceitfulness of riches? Or, what will they teach about the verse that inform is to withdraw from those who suppose that gain is godliness? 1Timothy 6:5. Verse 8 teaches us that having food and raiment to be content... When one learns of the food and raiment these mega-preachers require one becomes aware of expensive tastes.

Well, I guess they will have their glory - now. But what about the people they allegedly serve?

They do not sound like the people Jesus, Peter and John would go fishing with.

My opinion...

I find these pastor's salaries grossly out of proportion.

Peter ran the first megachurch and handled a huge budget from the proceeds of the sales of the believers posessions yet he could claim:

Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk. (Acts 3:6)

Should not this teach us a lesson?

I heard the story of an Argentian pastor of a 10000+ congregation who works full time in menial job to support himself.
Let the pastor earn his due, but let his salary not give any reason for offense to anyone.

I remember speaking with an independent missionary evangelist about his experiences in other countries.

This evangelist traveled to some foreign communities where the majority was living in extreme poverty. Yet the denominational missionaries were living in lavish homes with all of their needs taken care of. They had fancy appliances, air conditioning, several cars, children educated in private schools, telephones in every room, international cell phones for every family member and as many computers as family members!

Oddly enough, the congregation STILL took up an offering and paid the pastor a small salary (even though his funding was adequate for years).

I remember how this was a stark contrast to some of the pastors that I met in Mexico. When I traveled each year to the rugged, pine-covered mountains deep within the Sierra Madre Occidental in Chihuahua, I met Mexican pastors who worked THREE jobs in order to support the work of the Lord! One pastor slept in a chicken coup (until the church sanctuary was finished).

In addition, the Tarahumara pastors that we worked with didn't receive any "money." The people gave to support the Church (the people of God) as the need warranted. There were no modern amenities to squander any sort of wealth upon. There were no vehicles, fancy buildings, nice clothes, or even electricity. Most of the tribe lived in caves. The "offerings" were nothing more than water drawn from the river brought in large clay containers...or selections of their crops given to those who needed it.

Americans have a very interesting look at the compensation for members of the "five fold ministry." We live in a day of "professional" preachers. I have known men who quit pastoring in a location because the church couldn't afford the full salary that he required. I know "praise and worship leaders" who choose only to minister within congregations that provide adequate financial compensation.

As Jimmy said, there are some ministers who are almost "workaholics" in a sense of the amount of time and effort that they place into their "jobs." I have known wonderful pastors that could make a fortune with their work ethic in the "real" working world. However, for every hard-working pastor, I have known others who seem to get "paid" enormous salaries for praying and speaking (and nothing more) while allowing a big board to administrate the business affairs of the local institution.

I tend to shy away from these large "mega-churches" nowadays. There is so little room for the underlying rationale for meeting together -- encouragement. This encouragement isn't supposed to come entirely from a sermon. This encouragement came simply from meeting together with the brethren.

I really like congregations where the pastor is not afraid to work a "secular" job. I like to see pastors who aren't afraid to get out in the world and earn a living in order to provide for their physical families. It is disappointing to see a pastor who almost acts like it is "beneath him" to not get paid (and avoid becoming a burden upon the congregation).

Yes, there are some pastors who do so much that it would be difficult to find the time to work a full-time (or even part-time) job. Unfortunately, it seems that most pastors, evangelists, missionaries and even worship leaders are looking at such things as a career...which is very different than a calling. It is refreshing to meet people who would do what they could to fulfill that "calling" whether they were paid or not.

It is not really our business what pastors make, or really what any person brings in for the work they do. It is only the business of the pastor's congregation. Let them pay their pastor what they wish to. It is up to them, whether they are believers or unbelievers to decide, not us to sit and judge. Having said that, I do think a "salary" of $400,000 per year does seem excessive, but again, that is not my business. I know none of my pastors have ever pulled in that amount.

It should also be noted that $400,000 in California is not the same as $400,000 in South Carolina.

"The average salary for a lead pastor..."

Would somebody please show me where this "lead pastor" kind of thing is justified in the first place? From Scripture, I mean?

How long, Lord?

Family of God, prepare for a major MAJOR shaking in the church of Jesus Christ.

"Every plant which my heavenly Father hath not planted shall be rooted up..."

And every structure that He hath not built shall be torn down.

ITs always been a disgusting issue for me now for the last 10-15 years....

They thrive off of the backs of people, God's people, but God will allow it until we learn to listen to HIM.

I have learned that fellowship is of the utmost importance, offerings are good, they are needed, but when the pastor is riding in a rolls royce, and trying to tell me that God said, He will give you power to get wealth!

I realized that there a lot of spiritually illiterate saints out there. Appolus, my friend, again you make a very good point also.

We as a country are a bunch of pagans, we worship the almighty dollar, it is understood that if you dont work, you wont eat, but in terms of ministry, every ministry and how it is run will eventually will be proven whether it is founded upon wood, hay, or stubble, no matter how much money a person has but No foundation, none can be laid except that which is upon Christ.

Jesus was a man of no, absolutely no reputation, there was no comliness in Him that we should desire HIM. His anointing is why I am a free man. His anointing destroys yokes of bondage, blurr, and bewilderment.

Jesus is my Lord

ADisciple asks, "Would somebody please show me where this "lead pastor" kind of thing is justified in the first place? From Scripture, I mean?"

NO. Because nobody can show you or anyone else!

The closest you will find in the Scriptures to a "lead pastor", or the better known title "senior pastor" is in 1 Peter 5:4,

"And when the Chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away."

All who read that verse can be unmistakably assured of Whom the apostle is speaking.

May none of His people be guilty of Popedom, and attempt to take one of Christ Jesus' own titles to himself.

Let Romanism have their Vicars of Christ, but let His people be content to be called sons.

1 John 3:1,2

"Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the SONS of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the SONS of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

Yet another says, "It is not really our business what pastors make..." and, "It is up to them...to decide, not us to sit and judge.

Why certainly it is our business!

Since the Scriptures are our rule(measure)of our faith and practice we who are spiritual judge all things,especially those things pertaining to that Kingdom of which we belong.

1 Cor. 2:15, "But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged by no man."

"SICK." was one posters response.

I suppose this is as good a one-word response to the subject of this thread as one can muster up. I am also supposing that the poster(Natan)was so disgusted with what he read, that to say more might have led him to be tempted to sin.

From Websters Dictionary(1828 edition)

Sick

SICK, a. [Qu.Gr. squeamish, lothing.]

1. Affected with nausea; inclined to vomit; as, sick at the stomach. [This is probably the primary sense of the word.]

Hence,

2. Disgusted; having a strong dislike to/with/of;

I'd add that a body is not in health, and is suffering from decay and corruption when sick. Such is a body which feeds on unsound(unhealthy)doctrine. Physical,mental,and spiritual health must be guarded against intruders and invaders if it is to be kept strong IN THE LORD.

KingJimmy says,

"I don't think that comments such as "SICK" are in keeping with the spirit of the Scriptures. Such seems to be born of a cynical spirit rather than the Spirit of God."

The Spirit of God in His Word says,

2 Pet. 2:3,12,14,17,22 And through COVETOUSNESS THEY will with FEIGNED WORDS make MERCHANDISE of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not... But THESE, as natural BRUTE BEASTS, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption...Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; BEGUILING unstable souls: they have a heart exercised with COVETOUS PRACTICES; CURSED CHILDREN...These are WELLS without water, CLOUDS that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever... But it hath happened to them according to the true proverb, The DOG is turned to his own vomit again; and, The SOW that was washed, to her wallowing in the mire."

The Spirit of God in His Word has many other seemingly unkind words of this nature which are spoken without apology.

"And yes, my pastor makes 6 figures. And frankly, I am glad he does. He deserves every penny."

Shame on you 'again' KingJimmy, and on your pastor.

"What began as a movement in Jerusalem became a philosophy in Greece, an empire in Rome, a culture in England and an enterprise in America." - anonymous

NOTE: ALL I've stated in the post above ought not to be taken as an indictment of ALL in any leadership roles among the people of God. Nor ought one to assume I am a rebel or anti-authority by their own private interpretation of my words. I am both under authority and also an authority, by the grace of God.

Recall the words of Jesus to Pilate,

"So Pilate said to Him, Do You not speak to me? Do You not know that I have authority to crucify You, and I have authority to release You? Jesus answered, You would have no authority against Me, not any, if it were not given to you from above. Because of this, the one delivering Me to you has a greater sin." (John 19:10,11)

It's really becoming quite the trend. I mean the judging of men who have committed their lives to the Kingdom of God. Jesus said that no greater love does a man have than he lay down his life for a friend. Since terribly sinful people do that everyday in the defense of their home, in defense of the helpless and in defense of our freedoms I think Jesus meant much more than a moment of heroics. He meant the putting aside of many wants and desires over an entire lifetime so that others might hear and know.

First we do not know what these men have been through in their service for God. Sure, some are abusing their position, but some "Christians" are angry and jealous too. Do you we know that some of these men have not suffered greatly for their service and God is giving them a time of blessing and security?

So many have jumped to conclusions and judgment. Someone asked where lead pastor is in the Bible. Research James (not the book). I think it's a spirit of rebellion creeping in. So much talk about "professional ministers" being so rotten. You'll have to go somewhere else to listen to sermons as most I've seen here are professional ministers in that ministering is all they do. Someone also said they have heard of pastors who did nothing but pray and preach and others ran the daily operation of the church. Me too and it was in the book of Acts. They said they weren't called to wait on tables but to prayer and the ministry of the Word.

I'll admit 400,000 is a lot of money, and I have a hard time believing that it could be justified. But the tone is one of disrespect to an office that God has placed in the Church. So also the Lord directed those who proclaim the gospel to get their living from the gospel. There is so much that we don't know about these situations that to cast judgment seems detrimental to the Body. The pastor at the last church I attended was told what he would be making. In this case it was far more than what he anticipated. He accepted. Is that really that much different than a pastor being given a salary below the poverty line when a church can afford to pay more? One may be considered greedy, but the other is unloving. "You saw Me naked and you didn't clothe Me. You saw Me hungry and you didn't give Me anything to eat."

A little rambling, but we need to be careful what kind of conclusions we jump to. We must be slower to judge.

It is a very interesting article, but at the same time it is not fair to judge these men. Some may be true servants of God, some may not. So many factors go into it, like where they live in the country, what they do with the salary they receive (how they spend it), how many in their family etc.

For instance, what it costs for me to barley supply the very basic needs of my family of 5 in Los Angeles would be extravagant for a family of 3 in Fort Worth, TX

I personally work for the Lord and He supplies for all of my needs. I have my basic needs met and no more and am completely content and happy with that. My joy comes from serving God not from the monetary compensation I receive. If God was to provide $147k per year I would be happy with that also, not so I could lavish myself with world goods, but because I would be able to give to the furtherance of His kingdom and help others in His name.

It would be very easy to falsely judge a true man of God for making $147k per year when in actuality he has a large family, lives in an area like LA or NY, and gives a large portion of that to missions and evangelism activities. It would be very dangerous to falsely judge a true man of God.

ADisciple to answer your question below please check out the following article by Chuck Smith posted here on SermonIndex. It will give you some insight behind the Scriptural backing and thought behind the pastor or as commonly referred to as the "Moses" model of church leadership.

Would somebody please show me where this "lead pastor" kind of thing is justified in the first place? From Scripture, I mean?

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=14970

Patrick
www.jonahproject.com

Savannah wrote,

"The closest you will find in the Scriptures to a "lead pastor", or the better known title "senior pastor" is in 1 Peter 5:4,

"And when the Chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away."

All who read that verse can be unmistakably assured of Whom the apostle is speaking.

May none of His people be guilty of Popedom, and attempt to take one of Christ Jesus' own titles to himself.

Let Romanism have their Vicars of Christ, but let His people be content to be called sons.

Amen to your post Savannah. You and ADisciple clearly experess what scripture teaches about New Covenant leadership. Most others seem to be caught in the trap and to condone the practice of western christianity of making 'godliness a means of profit'! I like what Zac Poonen teaches about money and leadership. He has practiced not receiving a salary for 50 years.

Christisking wrote: "ADisciple to answer your question below please check out the following article by Chuck Smith posted here on SermonIndex. It will give you some insight behind the Scriptural backing and thought behind the pastor or as commonly referred to as the "Moses" model of church leadership."

Moses?! I thought we were to follow the 'model' of Jesus Christ. He brought in a 'better' covenant with 'better' promises and he came as a servant to all and told us to do the same. How is being paid a salary to serve the body acting as a true servant? In no way should we use Moses and the Old covenant as a model for New Covenant practice, when Christ our head has already given us HIS model.

Shame on you 'again' KingJimmy, and on your pastor.

I'm sorry you feel this way Savannah. I'm sorry, but reading your harsh and vile post almost made me cry. You should probably speak about others as you would want them to speak towards you. Seriously. Love your brethren, many whom you have falsely condemned without even knowing them.

A word for Savannah: There is a difference between using your words as a dagger, and allowing your words to become as a sword.

Trust me when I say this, I have been far more zealous and loud in my wording than you have in the past. Few have blazzed the path of prophetic furry as I. Indeed, at this moment I'm far more zealous than you now. But one thing the Lord has taught me over the years, is that I should be so zealous for the Lord and for the truth and for the brethren, that I season my words with grace, kindness, gentleness, and all the fruit of the Spirit. Gracious and kind words not only have the ability to cut with precision, but they also have the ability to heal and make whole.

Learn to use your words. And by God, pray before you ever post something as vile as you posted again. Seriously. Words should be choice and precious. They should be as silver.

*edited*

Would somebody please show me where this "lead pastor" kind of thing is justified in the first place? From Scripture, I mean?

This is a great question, and of course, the Scriptures know nothing of a Moses like Senior Pastor apart from Jesus Christ Himself. Some of course, think in His absence from earth (as He is in heaven) that somehow creates a job opening for the position. But as the Scriptures teach, God has made Christ "Lord of BOTH heaven AND earth."

However, even with that said, there are very godly men who believe they are the senior pastor of a church. Such is a great theological and practical mistake. But, it is a mistake none the less. And just because they've made this mistake, most very sincerely so, doesn't mean we have the right to cast stones at them, or to refuse to honor them in the Lord as being an individual the Lord has given us for our spiritual well being.

And if our elder brother is consuming himself with the Lord, prayer, and ministering the word, and taking great pains at reaching out to the lost, I see nothing wrong in a local assembly deciding such a man is worth whatever pay they think is just in compensating him for his labors. There is great room for charity in this area. As a rule of thumb, the church should avoid the EXTREMES of making the pastor rich, as well as making the pastor poor. There is no virtue in either.

And from there, let that pastor decide if he will accept the churches pay, and if he does and it is too little, let him also consider getting a job outside of the church. I think he should make enough "to live with dignity." Numerically, this will differ depending on what part of the country you live in. It costs a lot more to get by in New York and in Los Angelas than the mountains of North Carolina.

If an elder rules well and labors hard, the Scripture says such a man is worthy of double honor. Some of you are greedy and jealous, or are simply poor students of the word, but let that verse mean what that verse means: justly compensate a minister for his labor of love unto you as well as the Lord. He deserves it.

Jimmy said, "However, even with that said, there are very godly men who believe they are the senior pastor of a church. Such is a great theological and practical mistake. But, it is a mistake none the less."

That was exactly my point, Jimmy. Thanks for acknowledging it.

There's no doubt that many of these men are sincere, godly men. Nevertheless they are involved in a "structure," a system, that isn't according to the original blueprint of the Masterbuilder. And I believe we are in days when we are going to see the Masterbuilder coming onto the jobsite and tearing down all that is not His own project.

I honour and respect these men who are doing their best to serve God in the present order.

At the same time I am seeking to identify with the Light that God has shed on my pathway. I MUST do so, by His grace. It's a matter of obedience. I believe we are living in tremendous days. I believe we are going to see in a more pronounced way that ministry of John the Baptist-- of Elijah, I mean-- that restores things to the original intent God had in the first place. Elijah, in a day of great apostasy and idolatry, he builded again the altar of Jehovah that had been broken down. This ministry was there in Christ's first appearing, and it has been there in measure througout church history from time to time, calling the people to repentance, but I believe we are beginning to see it come forth again in a very powerful expression calling for a return to, if I may use the expression, "primitive Christianity," so that God may bring forth in the church and by the church His original intention: the body of CHRIST Himself. I'll just leave it at that, and may the Lord open our eyes to grasp the tremendous awesome implications of this.

...The kind of "model" we see church being patterned after is very far from its beginnings, the true Biblical pattern. We need to return to that, go back to that... so we can MOVE AHEAD to what God has in mind. And this is not something we can manufacture just by trying to discover the true Biblical pattern, and putting it together with our own hands. It will only come about by a true returning of heart, by brokenness, by tears, by deep repentance, by giving the Spirit of Christ His lordship in our midst again. Christ Himself must build HIS church.

Nevertheless they are involved in a "structure," a system, that isn't according to the original blueprint of the Masterbuilder. And I believe we are in days when we are going to see the Masterbuilder coming onto the jobsite and tearing down all that is not His own project.

I completely agree. There is an awakening in our land and others concerning these very things. I think we can expect things as we know it to drastically change within our life time. I see in the Lord many in the church returning to a much more primitive form of church. I know as part of my calling, I believe the Lord has, in part, charged me to participate in this. One day, I blieve the Lord has called me to plant a church that however imperfect, is something much closer to the apostolic model than most of us have ever known.

However even with that said, I think there is still room for justly compensanted ministers. Ideally, I would like to work at the most a part-time job so that I can do some open-air evangelism on college campuses during school hours. Frankly, working 55+ hours a week like I do right now, such simply is not possible, unless I take a vacation. But vacation time is harder to come by these days.

So "practically" speaking, I think there is still some room to have a "salaried" minister in a local congregation. But if he is going to be salaried, I think he definitely needs to be very heavily focused on evangelism.

Sometimes, overpaid pastors forget how the average person in his church lives. Then they become very materialistic bragging about their boat, motorhomes, stocks, cabin at the lake, etc...
I believe that a pastor should be paid well. Paul said that a laborer is worthy of his hire, but it is easy to become a hireling as Jesus said.
Does a pastor need a huge salary, free home, free benefits.... etc.?
We need to keep our focus.
But on the other hand, some churches expect their pastor to be dirt poor, and then to be sacrificial. Shame on some churches!

Jimmy said, "So "practically" speaking, I think there is still some room to have a "salaried" minister in a local congregation."

Hi Jimmy. Why "a" salaried minister (singular)? Let's take the ideal situation of a local church that is watched over by a few of the brethren. (This is the Scriptural pattern.) Which of these do you think ought to be "salaried?"

Paul says it's those (and he uses the word elders) who labour in the word and doctrine (1 Tim. 5.17).

It is sad indeed when a pastor of a church can live comfortably, and not extend his hand to one of the members of the congregation after say that person has lost their job. I have heard of things like this happen in some churches where the pastor is aware that one of his members has lost their job and that that particular member has tithed in that church for years and years, and the pastor or elders will not lift a finger to help that man in his time of need. How sad a case is this!

Why "a" salaried minister (singular)?

I didn't mean to cast a view of a single man pastoral system. I believe in a plurality of elders. And if it seems good to them and the church to do so, I think they have liberty in the Lord to draw a salary.

Ok, someone has to tell me where you find such evidence that makes you so certain that one man being in charge of a church body is un-scriptural. By "in charge" I mean that he is leaning on God for every undertaking of the church, but it is he who is guiding the church body as a whole. I can fully understand where one could gather this idea, but I just don't see it spelled out specifically. We KNOW certain things because they are stated very plainly. I think this is one of those areas that are a little gray. The Word speaks so that either way could be considered scriptural.

It is a matter of the heart. If a singular man is fully leaning on God in all that he does then we have no problem. If you have 12 people guiding a body who are fully leaning on God we have no problem. In either situation if those in leadership are not completely submitted to God there will be problems. Leonard Ravenhill liked to say that there were a million ways into hell, but not one exit. Well, there are a million ways to Christ, but only One Road that leads to the Father.

I'm of the opinion that if God didn't see fit to tell us exactly how "church" is supposed to look then maybe the structure is not that important. Being submitted to Christ is what is of the utmost importance. If a church is bearing fruit with a lead pastor in charge, who are we to say that God is not pleased with it. You will know a tree by its fruit, will you not?

Ok, someone has to tell me where you find such evidence that makes you so certain that one man being in charge of a church body is un-scriptural.

Great question. It is un-scriptural because it is entirely without apostolic precedent, and something the apostles actually labored against from time to time. I would encourage you to study it fully out yourself, but when you study it out, I believe you will discover the following:

Jesus Christ alone is the "head" (Col 1:8) of the Church, "universal" and "local." According to Hebrews 3:1, He is our Chief Priest and is the Chief Apostle (Pope). According to 1 Peter 5:1-4, He is also our Chief Shepherd (Sr. Pastor/Elder).

Thus, because Jesus Christ is all these things and then some, it should be no surprise that when we read the New Testament that there is not one single example of anybody being established as the single person in charge of the local body as "the pastor." It simply does not exist. And why? Because Jesus Christ alone occupies these positions. His being in heaven doesn't remove Him from this ministry.

Instead, when the apostles established churches, they always appointed a plurality of "elders" in each church to "oversee" the life of the Church. Such can be seen in Titus 1:5. Every time we read about elders in the New Testament, it is always in a plurality, as a college of elders (a presbytery), with Jesus Christ alone as first.

The few times we read about people trying become the "head" of a church, it is strongly spoken against. Such as when Diotrephes (3 John 1:9) asserted himself as "first." John condemned such. Likewise, the Nicolaitians, who were "people conquerors," the Lord likewise twice condemned in Revelation 2.

And such all goes back to the teaching that Jesus Christ alone is the head of the church, local and universal. For "One is your Leader" (Matthew 23:10), and it is serious error to ever assert anybody else occupies the ministry that is His alone. Often a sincere error, but it is error none the less.

Church structure is not a very complicated thing. In the New Testament, it is very loose and simple, and much more "organic" and "functional" than hierarchical, institutional, and positional. Indeed, when you think of New Testament ministry, drawing overlapping circles would be a better diagram of organizational structure than anything that looked like a pyramid or tree.

I believe that pastors who get enough to have a roof over their head, and have a "safe" car to drive to be productive in ministry, and be able to clothe themselves in what is fair and reasonable, without being a stumbling block to those in the congregration. Is good enough.
why get more money to be able to say I put 20% back to the church. Just take 20% less to begin with.
I would not feel comfortable as a pastor to take a salary that was more than an average joe trying to make it through life.
To say I built a congregation from 100 to 5000, Is arrogant and lacks humility, Jesus Christ builds HIS church and gives pastors charge over HIS flock to shepherd them in the ways of God.

Besides all the riches we need are in Christ and he supplies all we need every day..
Just my opinion, God is the Judge and will judge each and everyone of us, according to what we did with what He gives us.
So if he blesses me with a decent car, or a mega salary, I just need to remember how I used His resources for His glory and Kingdom.

Jimmy, thanks for the reply. I still don't buy it though. Again, I understand that you get what you believe from the Word, and I would not be so prideful to say that you are in error. I do think the Church is lacking in the free movement of the Holy Spirit, but I don't think that is because we have the wrong model.

Jesus Christ alone is the "head" (Col 1:8) of the Church, "universal" and "local." According to Hebrews 3:1, He is our Chief Priest and is the Chief Apostle (Pope). According to 1 Peter 5:1-4, He is also our Chief Shepherd (Sr. Pastor/Elder).

Who could argue with this? Still, I don't think having a lead pastor in any way contradicts this teaching. Paul was appointed to the Gentiles. No one would argue that God used Him above all others in this ministry. He was the lead evangelist to the Gentiles yet in no way did he infringe on Christ as the Head of the Church.

it should be no surprise that when we read the New Testament that there is not one single example of anybody being established as the single person in charge of the local body as "the pastor."

What about James' role in the early Church at Jerusalem? There are a times when the apostles seem to defer to his judgment on things. I think that the verses concerning James on this are pretty convincing that he was the lead pastor of the Jerusalem church.

My point is not that I'm right. My point is that because the Bible does not come right out and say this or that then it's not something that needs to be a sticking point. Like once saved always saved. Believe like it's true and live like it's not. Or predestination. Believe that it's true and pray like it isn't. In this case I think we just need to trust those around us as if it's true, but be ready to stand alone in case it is not.

Still, I don't think having a lead pastor in any way contradicts this teaching.

What if I called somebody else our High Priest?

What about James' role in the early Church at Jerusalem? There are a times when the apostles seem to defer to his judgment on things. I think that the verses concerning James on this are pretty convincing that he was the lead pastor of the Jerusalem church.

What about James role? What verses? And where is he ever called the pastor of Jersualem?

Jimmy said, "Thus, because Jesus Christ is all these things and then some, it should be no surprise that when we read the New Testament that there is not one single example of anybody being established as the single person in charge of the local body as "the pastor." It simply does not exist. And why? Because Jesus Christ alone occupies these positions. His being in heaven doesn't remove Him from this ministry."

Good word, Jimmy.

"Church structure is not a very complicated thing. In the New Testament, it is very loose and simple, and much more "organic" and "functional" than hierarchical, institutional, and positional. Indeed, when you think of New Testament ministry, drawing overlapping circles would be a better diagram of organizational structure than anything that looked like a pyramid or tree."

Good word.

hi, Jesus told the story of a pastor aka shepherd who had 100 sheep he was responsible for and left 99 to go after the lost 1.if you are looking in acts to form your doctrine bring all of your goods and lay them at the feet of the apostles to be shared by all and then start argueing about the office of the pastor teacher.if my pastor made 500 thousand a year he would still be underpaid.in the last 10 years we have started...planted... 20000 churches around the world as one of our outreaches at the cost of millions of dollars... we preach the cross and baptize 20 or so a week...everyone in our city has nothing but wonderful things to say about our rep. he fellowships with many other pastors in our city and is there for them financially as well... we also feed the poor and have a major ministry to mothers who would otherwise have aborted their babies... he also is trying to influence many other pastors around the country to reestablish integrety in the church,especially financially.etc.jimp

The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.

He makes me lie down in green pastures. He leads me beside still waters.

He restores my soul.

He leads me in paths of righteousness for his name's sake.

Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me.

You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies; you anoint my head with oil; my cup overflows.

Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life, and I shall dwell in the house of the LORD forever.

A little disappointed in your response Jimmy. I have my way of thinking about this, but I am certainly not beyond being convinced otherwise. You've dismissed what I've said completely. If it was so obvious from scripture that you were right, and the thousands of servants of God who have served as lead pastors over the years were so in error, I think you could do more than say "What if I called someone else our High Priest?" You would be in serious error if you said that. No one in real ministry for the Lord would say that. You know that is not what I'm saying and it's completely dishonest to imply that it is. One person having the final say in the decisions of a body of believers in no way means they have usurped the authority of Christ. To say that is highly judgmental and Pharisaical. The idea of one person being God's instrument for a group of people is all over the Bible.

"What about James' role? What verses? And where is he ever called the pastor of Jerusalem?" Now, where is it ever explicitly stated that it is an error for one man to be the spiritual leader of a church. But in regards to what verses, consider Acts 12:17, Acts 15:13, Acts 21:18 and Galatians 2:12.

This is really kind of unnecessary. If you would like to have a discourse on why you believe what you believe then I would be honored to see if I could learn something. What I won't do is have you dismiss what I'm saying by putting words in my mouth that you know I have not implied. You act as if what I'm saying is so foreign that you can't even comprehend it. I'm not condoning homosexual leadership in the church, I'm condoning an office which is specifically mentioned in the Bible. You are forming an opinion, educated though it may be, by taking a verse from here and there to support it. I'm looking at one verse, Ephesians 4:11, and then supporting it with examples of James and others throughout the Bible.

Matt

Hoohoou

I think you misunderstood my post. My questions were not asked with the tone I think you read them with. I asked the questions I did to really see what you think in regard to James. Which verses specifically do you think support such a view?

And regarding my question about calling men other than Christ our High Priest, I also asked that paritially in a rhetorical manner. But I would be interested to see if you think such is actually ok theologically.

And I say none of these things to slight our brethern who have served and do serve as senior pastors. We are indebted to their service to the body of Christ.

Many blessings.

Would somebody please show me where this "lead pastor" kind of thing is justified in the first place? From Scripture, I mean?

Here are a few:

Titus 1:5-9: KJV
5For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:
6If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
7For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
8But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;
9Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

1Timothy 3:1-7:
1This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

Just because some have abused their role as an overseer or bishop does not mean one should discard the office. This is one that was set up through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit to build up the church. Notice the instructions given in Titus 1:9-16:

9Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

10For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
11Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.
12One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
13This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
14Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
15Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
16They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

I deeply appreciate those men who are serving our church in this role. They take their work seriously and work for the edifying of the brotherhood.

Oh, and they are paid only with love offerings. Otherwise they are gainfully employed. Actually, our overseer is a physician and our lead pastor a cabinet builder.

God bless these brothers!

ginnyrose

Every elder in our church is unpaid and works a different job to support themselves and their families. When a need is needed, it is given by the body. No church car, no paid salaries, no retirement funds (which in itself is kind of silly for a pastor), etc...

What is wrong with scenarios like this?

What is wrong with scenarios like this?

Nothing.

This is the way we do it and it works - except in our church we call the elders deacon[s] or they are a member of the church council who work with the pastoral team.

This type of leadership is called 'servant leadership'. It works because they know they have to give an answer to Someone greater and because it is Biblical.

Hi Sister Ginny.

About the passage you quoted "Titus 1:5-9: KJV
5For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee..."

Note that it says "elders" not "an elder." The early church was led-- not ruled or governed: if you check the original Greek you will discover that those verses that use the word "rule" are from the Greek root meaning "to lead or guide"-- and so, the early church was led, guided, by a few elders who functioned in different capacities, and who were themselves not a separate clergy, but just ones who were members of the body of Christ themselves with God-given strengths they supplied to all.

These elders were overseers, the word we know as "bishops." They "saw over," watched over, the flock.
And this was not an office, but a capacity, a character. There's no indication in Scripture of the early churches having one man called a "lead pastor" who was in charge of the church. This kind of structure came in probably very quickly, though: probably in the second century. But it is not the Biblical pattern.

...I understand your protectiveness toward godly pastors who are doing their best in the present system. These men, many of them, perhaps most of them, are honest God-loving men. I honour and respect them, as I said earlier. And I think many of them, as they more and more see what God is seeking to bring forth in this hour, they too will hear the Great Shepherd's Voice, and follow Him into what He has in mind and is about to manifest. Certainly it will mean a cross for them. It does for all of us in one way or another.

But in regards to what verses, consider Acts 12:17, Acts 15:13, Acts 21:18 and Galatians 2:12.

Now that I have more time, I will address these verses regarding James one by one.

Acts 12:17 But motioning to them with his hand to be silent, he described to them how the Lord had led him out of the prison. And he said, "Report these things to James and the brethren." Then he left and went to another place.

James is nowhere called an elder here. We know James was one of the apostles. And since at this time in Church history the apostles had started to expand their ministry beyond their initial outpost in Jerusalem, it is possible James was the only apostle still in Jerusalem at the time. But whatever the case, such is all speculation.

Acts 15:13 After they had stopped speaking, James answered, saying, "Brethren, listen to me. -

James was one of several apostles that spoke at the conference in Jerusalem. There is nothing here that describes him acting in any senior pastoral role. No doubt, James argument carried the day at the conference. But his argument carrying the day wasn't due to a special position, but because of the persuasiveness of his words. Thus, when the conference was concluded, a joint letter was written by all the apostles, elders, and the rest of the church. There is no evidence of anyone having priority in this.

Acts 21:18 And the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present.

If anything, this strengthens the notion that James was anything but a senior elder. For James is spoken as standing apart from the elders of Jerusalem, and since he was an apostle residing in Jerusalem, this should not surprise us.

Galatians 2:12 For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision.

James sent some people. That's all this verse says. Paul sometimes sent Timothy to places, and sometimes various churches would send other ministers to other places. No hierarchy needs to be imagined here. My younger brother has sent me on errands for him in the past. Sometimes at work, I'll send one of my coworkers to carry out a task in my place. Yet I have no seniority over them whatsoever.

I think what we often have with verses such as these, is the reading of an idea into a text that the text itself does not say. Exegetically, I simply see no justification in using these verses to support the idea of there being such a thing as a "senior pastor" in the early Church. Especially considering everywhere else, we see something else altogether. Indeed, it is my conviction that the explicit teaching of Scripture is that Jesus Christ alone is the Chief Shepherd of the Church. He is Lord of both heaven and earth. He alone is the head of the body, the Church of Jesus Christ.

I never see such an idea ever applied to anybody else in the Church in all of the Scripture. In my opinion, the evidence is strongly wanting for the idea of a senior pastor existing in the Scripture, with the exception of course, of Jesus Christ.

hi, as far as i know , all things created by God have one head. anything else is monstrous.even marriage and family...government... high priest...etc.jimp

The Scripture that comes to my mind immediately is Acts 20:34-35: "You yourselves know that these hands of mine have supplied my own needs and the needs of my companions. 35In everything I did, I showed you that by this kind of hard work we must help the weak, remembering the words the Lord Jesus himself said: 'It is more blessed to give than to receive.' "

It seems pretty evident that Paul is giving instructions there that are to be heeded by all elders/pastors/bishops of all churches at all times, not just the Ephesians at that time. This is practical and doctrinal instruction. I know that many resort to verses like 1Cor.9:14 and 1Tim.5:17 and take them out of context to justify their greed.
It seems that many who are salaried pastors have a huge issue with much pride, greed and control over the people in their churches. They want to be the boss, they want the spot light on them, they want to rule over "their flocks". They build their own kingdoms where they are king, not Christ. They are like CEOs of the world. The whole church system is run like that kind of business. That is grieving and sickening to me and I am sorry if you feel that I am being too judgmental on the Church. We have gone far astray from God's heart and it is time for us to wake up and cry out to God in true repentance, with fasting, weeping and mourning. We have bought into the lies of the devil. He is playing us like he wants. As long as we continue doing God's work in the ways of the world we will have little to no power, or influence or impact on the world for Christ.

The Following is part of an article titled "Should Pastors Be Salaried". You can read the rest of it here:
http://www.truthguard.com/Articles/should-pastors-be-salaried-a53.html

"It is absolutely not the church's obligation to financially support a pastor or elder. This is a very popular tradition and misconception based on misinterpretations and misapplications of various Scriptures and often leads to gross financial abuse.

We do not see salaried pastors anywhere in the Bible. The Bible teaches against “hirelings”. It is crystal clear from the overall teachings of the Bible that a pastor should work with his hands, taking care of himself and his family, having something to share with others. He should not be a burden on the church.

Nevertheless, we hear a lot of empty excuses today from hirelings as to why they claim to have no time to work a real job. Yet the Apostle Paul often made tents for a living and was way busier with spiritual duties than these guys today. In additional to everything Paul was doing, he also had the time to write two thirds of the New Testament as he was inspired by God to do.

When a man looks at a church as a job or career, or a business that needs to be managed, it then appears to him that he will be very busy with that endeavor. Therefore he thinks he will not have enough time to also work a real job. The truth is the church is not a financial career or a business, nor is it something to be commercially administrated, and so the church is not a complex maze of confusion that needs to be controlled. Hence there is plenty of time for a pastor to work a job and take care of his family while helping with the needs of the church...."

Hoohoou said, "Someone asked where lead pastor is in the Bible. Research James (not the book). I think it's a spirit of rebellion creeping in. So much talk about "professional ministers" being so rotten."

This is from early in this thread, and I've been wanting to respond to it.

No-- far from it-- it's not a spirit of rebellion creeping in to want to see the genuine order of the Spirit of God in our churches.

But that charge is inevitable, it seems. Nabal of old accused David of it when David was on the run from Saul. Nabal refused to help David, saying more or less (and I'm not quoting exactly) "There's many slaves nowadays running away from their masters."

The same charge has been laid time and again throughout church history when hungry saints wanted to move beyond the confines of man-made structures and into the liberating lordship of the Spirit of God. The established system didn't like it. Never has.

...If only the sheep of God's pasture weren't so rebellious!

And I will just add that David had a very respectful attitude toward Saul, and would have been glad to submit to him, if Saul had been walking in God's ways. Isn't that how many of us feel also? We're not down on these men in professional ministry, we don't "talk about professional ministers being so rotten." But we just feel so... so short of the glory of God in that old dying system! And we've heard the Voice of our Lead Pastor calling us, leading us, into green pastures... and we're going to follow. It's not a matter of rebellion. It's a matter of obedience.

hi, the whole teaching of the tithe in the bible was so that the sons of levi would be educated and supported and about the work of the ministry to God.paul was not a pastor so you cant use him as an example.jimp

ADisciple, I understand your point in the story of David and Saul. However, David didn't leave because Saul was king. David fled because Saul had lost his anointing and had forsaken God. By all means run at that point. You have really just proven my point. The office of pastor and what that means can be debated all day long. What remains is this. Are those who are in leadership positions fully submitted to God? Do they desire nothing but what God would have them to do? Do they seek Him and love Him with all of their heart, mind, soul and strength?

I say rebellion because it seems that some are more concerned with the office than what the man in the office truly desires. It sounds like an issue with authority and not biblical accuracy. Some of the greatest revivalists have served as senior pastors. This fact is not proof of anything and I'll readily admit it. What it does say is that God will use the system that is currently in place if men will simply lay down their whole being at the alter of Christ and say, "Here I am, send me."

You may be right, and if you are I pray that God would reveal it to me through His Word. I've got no interest other than Him.

Jimmy, if your still reading, I don't think my examples are any less conclusive than yours. I know what verses you all use and I understand your interpretation. In my interpretation the verses I used seem to show that the early church deferred to James on the matter in question. No, I wouldn't "bet the house" on those verses. But to me it reaffirms the pastor/shepherd role of the modern lead pastor.

It's funny how we (Christians) can disagree on one thing and be in so much agreement on others. I've cheered you on from the sidelines many times, Jimmy. Blessings, my brother.

Matt

Hi Matt, I appreciated your post. You said, "ADisciple, I understand your point in the story of David and Saul. However, David didn't leave because Saul was king. David fled because Saul had lost his anointing and had forsaken God. By all means run at that point. You have really just proven my point."

I did mention this very thing in my post, saying that David would have been glad to submit to Saul if Saul had been walking in God's ways. The same with many of us who have left the established system.

You said in your earlier post that some of us talking the way we were about lead pastors... you wondered if it didn't indicate "a rebellious spirit." I used David as an example of the exact opposite, of a man who had to leave "the system" because of what was taking place there. It wasn't rebellion, it was a desire to be obedient to God that caused David to flee.

You said, "I say rebellion because it seems that some are more concerned with the office than what the man in the office truly desires. It sounds like an issue with authority and not biblical accuracy."

Well, I don't see it as biblical accurate that churches should be led by one man called a senior or lead pastor. But I also said I respect and honour many of these men who are doing the best they can in a system that is not really God's intent for the church.

You said, "Some of the greatest revivalists have served as senior pastors. This fact is not proof of anything and I'll readily admit it. What it does say is that God will use the system that is currently in place if men will simply lay down their whole being at the alter of Christ and say, "Here I am, send me."

I agree with you here. I know God has used this man-made system, and has used men who served Him in it. Some of the precious men of God from days past have served Him in this system; some of the greatest revivals of the church have taken place in the denominational system. But this does not mean God has abandoned His hope. He will yet have the church He and the apostles began to build-- the glorious church without spot or wrinkle of blemish or any such thing, the church which is His Body, the very fulness of Him who filleth all in all-- and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it! He promises He will shake all things to bring this desire of His into being... and I believe we are seeing those shakings more and more in our day.

You said, "You may be right, and if you are I pray that God would reveal it to me through His Word. I've got no interest other than Him."

That blessed me, reading that! I appreciate very much your humility, Matt. I've got no other interest either. And I pray He'll wash my own understanding so I'm able to see more clearly also.

The Lord bless you, brother!

Jimmy, if your still reading, I don't think my examples are any less conclusive than yours. I know what verses you all use and I understand your interpretation. In my interpretation the verses I used seem to show that the early church deferred to James on the matter in question. No, I wouldn't "bet the house" on those verses. But to me it reaffirms the pastor/shepherd role of the modern lead pastor.

It's funny how we (Christians) can disagree on one thing and be in so much agreement on others. I've cheered you on from the sidelines many times, Jimmy. Blessings, my brother.

Amen. Nothing wrong with a friendly disagreement, and I can understand how one can look at the verses in question as serving the idea of a senior pastor. I would challenge you simply with this observation: None of the texts cited specifically say that James was the senior pastor of the church in Jerusalem. At best, looking at the entire counsel of God's word, I think we can assume James was probably one of the most influential, if not the most influential of the leaders at Jerusalem.

But that is about as far as I would take any inference from those texts concerning James' ministry there. When we look at the actual theology of the New Testament, and the actual apostolic practice, I can only conclude that when the apostles appointed elders/pastors in a church, it was always a plurality. We can't find one instance anywhere that they ever appointed one man in charge of anything. And this practice makes total sense in light of their theology that Jesus Christ is the head of the Church, and that He alone is said to be our Chief Shepherd (Senior Pastor).

The evidence for anything else, in my opinion, is strongly wanting. And even if they actually did appoint such men to such positions in the Church, I would still argue that the system that is generally in place today has gone far beyond the realm of anything the apostles practiced or taught concerning that ministry.

And His gifts were [varied; He Himself appointed and gave men to us] some to be apostles (special messengers), some prophets (inspired preachers and expounders), some evangelists (preachers of the Gospel, traveling missionaries), some pastors (shepherds of His flock) and teachers. Ephesians 4:11

I wonder about this verse and why Pastors are the only ones who are even considered to be paid in a normal "church." Why do they have the pre-eminence over the other "gifts"

Shouldn't a body of believers have all these gifts working? With the overseers of Bishops or elders? We sure don't here anyone say when I grow up I want to be an apostle or prophet?

Why is the gift of a pastor even considered an occupation and the rest are not? If the "church" truly functioned in all the gifts would the "pastor" really be so busy? If these gifts were all working correctly then the "church" would be more organic and fresh and not always hearing one mans opinion or gift and each person would hear/receive a well balanced meal from the word of God.

Good post, Noone. Good questions. If more people were asking them it would revolutionize church as we know it.

I'll add one more thing to what you said. Paul in Ephesians said that the purpose of the ministries-- the apostle, the prophet, the evangelist, the pastor and teacher-- was to equip the saints for THEIR work of the ministry "unto the edifying of the body of Christ..." (Eph. 4.11-13).

In other words, the ministries are there just to bring each and every member of the body into their own particular ministry of edifying the body of Christ. It is the members of the body themselves that are to edify, to build up, the body-- and this by something the apostle calls "love"-- "till we all come unto the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God unto a perfect (full-grown, mature) Man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ..." (vs.14).

This kind of church means that every single member is helped and enabled to become vital, contributing, needed. The kind of "church" in which one man more or less does it all, and he gets paid to run things, and week after week after year after year the people come and sit and sing a few songs and listen to a sermon... this has kept the church in a chronic state of immaturity, and infancy, and dormancy, and weakness. Sure, maybe a few are given the liberty to function a little, and go home feeling they are somewhat vital. The rest are just, well, sermon fodder, week after week. God never intended that.

...This is a very gigantic truth, and when it is awakened it is going to rise up and shake this whole religious system... and the world.

Thanks ADisciple for your thoughts! I wonder what others thoughts are on this subject. Is there really any "church" that functions this way? I live in such a small rural area with all the normal denom's we have been "out of church" for over a year. We have attended a church a few times that has just started up it has great true preaching and prayer but it is following in the traditions of "normal church" and we are praying about entering the system again.....

hi, a few months ago at our 11 am service 80 people responded to the invitation for salvation... 20 were members who brought the 60...healthy sheep beget sheep.. we are all ministers with a chance to lead a cell group or be a leader(servant) in many other areas we have over 1000 cell groups...we have 7000 youth for we have leaders in all the schools in our city... we have started 20000 churches around the world in the last 10 years...we have many pastors and one senior pastor...we meet in metal buildings and use most of the money for the mission outreach in many other areas.how much is this worth to you?my pastor worked with brother andrew in ussr...was a missionary to africa for years and was a chaplain at oru...this training and wisdom is pricless and lives on his salary and takes no gifts...we supported a r.bunkey meeting in africa when a man gave my pastor a million etc.jimp

I know a lot more people who work harder, work two jobs, serving God and family and don't make even close to that.

No doubt. And I'm such a person myself, working 2 jobs and maybe going on 3 this fall. But I'm still for nicely compensating such ministers if the funds are available, and the Lord permits. Lord knows I would rejoice if I could receive some compensation for my labor in the Lord, and to free up some time so I could be more engaged in open-air evangelism. But instead, I have to work 2-3 jobs just to get by, and look for every opportunity I can at work and between jobs to evangelize.

I'm not even sure why this story was posted in the first place. If this is a worldly report, aimed at disillusioning the average american...why are we assisting in their efforts? I'm just saying...

Also, if the Pastor is a wise steward of his finances, takes care of his family, Church and is a cheerful giver and supporter of New Testament ministry endeavors, then more power to him. Pastors work hard, and most are miserably underpaid...there is NO scriptural support for such. We expect our pastors to be top notch, but then neglect to provide them with enough money to take proper care of their families...and we wonder why they burn out? I'm not promoting pastor living hollywood lifestyles...but I think we need to relax just a bit. Pastors are hard working individuals...they do more than just preach once a week, folks. If they work hard and the funds are available, I'm all for them receiving decent compensation. I think it's God-honoring. Peace.

Jeff

By the way, I have a Paypal account if anybody wishes to make an offering :-)

Reformer said, "Plenty of people in the church work hard and do the right thing..sure they could use a financial lift at times, but because they are not a "pastor" its different. We are all ambassadors for Christ...we are all ministers. It wasn't just the pastor being compensated...it was the elders."

And this is spot on as well, Mike. I often think about this. Why is it always the "lead pastor" who is the paid one? Maybe he should be out working, and helping support someone like, say, Jimmy, whom you used as an example.

Or maybe that disabled one who can't work any more, but faithfully labours in the word and doctrine... I'm sure he'd be glad to not have to struggle to make ends meet. But he isn't even considered eligible for this: the tithes have to go to the "pastor."

...I feel like there has to be, not revival, but a spiritual revolution.

Like in the old William Booth hymn, Send The Fire. "...To bring the light and glory in, the Revolution now begin... God of Elijah send the fire, send the fire, send the fire.

We love to sing the song. But do we really want the fire?There are implications to God sending the Fire. All that is not of Him goes up in smoke!

Sorry guys...but a lot of the posts on this particular thread sound a little bit bitter and cynical. Your average pastor makes nowhere near what these guys are hauling in...please don't develop a whacked out paradigm now concerning individuals serving as "lead pastors". Senior/Lead pastors are some of the hardest working folk I know...they work 9-5 like the rest...but then they also work from 5 onward. Pastoral ministry isn't something you step in and out of...it is a job, no doubt, but it's also your life and heartbeat--it never leaves you and you never leave it. No pastor I know DEMANDS compensation.

It’s not that pastors are perfect. If that is what we are looking for, then pastorless churches would be the norm. It’s that God calls on us to honor those who lead us spiritually, particularly “those who labor in preaching and teaching” (1 Tim. 5:17 ESV). In my opinion, pastoring is one of the hardest occupations on the planet. We live in a sophisticated, fast-paced, and complex world, and our expectations for “high-performance” pastors often set the bar at unattainable heights.
So, let’s switch the focus and become high-performance church members who honor our pastors with words of encouragement and prayer. A supportive note or a “thank you” in the foyer will go a long way to stimulate pastors to serve with joy and efficiency.

How judgmental! I mean, perhaps we can make general conclusions about people who make $147,000 per year, but how do any of you know that a pastor or any person who makes this amount does not turn around and direct half of it as donations to the Lord's work? You are speaking as those who have firsthand evidence, not of one case (which will not do) but of a large percentage of all pastors, to declare such a gross sin. That is why I have said we cannot judge. Jesus told us to "not judge according to appearance, but to make a righteous judgment." Fuming on this forum about what others make, whether godly or ungodly, can bring nothing good, unless we are connected directly to the one paid. In this case, we can at best comment on our own pastor only, if we have one.

It beats working for living.

I am not sure this is a fair statement. Walking closely with senior leadership in a fairly new body, I see this leadership putting in far more hours than I do at my secular job. In fact, I would say about double. We really don't know what a person's job is like until we walk in his shoes for a while. Some leaders are overpaid. Some are underpaid. Some who make six figures deserve every penny they are paid, and some who make less than 40,000 a year don't even deserve that much. I don't think we can make a blanket statement. To simply read a dollar amount and make a judgment that it is wrong based simply on the dollar amount is often fraught with envy or a critical or judgmental attitude. We must be careful and judge righteous judgments. I would say that most pastors I have known were grossly underpaid and were faithful anyway.

You know, sometimes us Christians act if as though we will have to answer for others sins,I have never read that in my Bible. I guess secular media does not already do a good enough job of exposing our Pastors,why don't help them out here some? I will stand with Jesus on this one, "he without sin "go ahead" and cast the first stone, sad to say, but I really feel there are a few here that feel they could cast that first stone. We want to see why the world and our Pastors are in the shape it's in today? go look in the mirror.

Neil, my post was not at all a personal shot, sorry if you took it that way, or maybe I read to much into your post. Look, we all are at different places in our walk, life would be boring if we were all at the same point. I personally am not at the point in my walk, to were I feel comfortable being judgmental, and that's ok, maybe one day, as I grow more in the Lord I might. We all have to listen to the Holy spirit within, and be led by that same Holy spirit,not man! We all are going to have different opinions, and trust me I respect anyone opinion here, as long as I can get that same respect. When we can all finally learn, that were all still growing, and not one of us knows it all, and not one of us here, knows what Jesus would do, but his Word will tell you what he did. Come on, lets not try and be God, I don't think he needs our help to get the Church right, if you will just relax a little you could see he is doing a fine job himself. Now if you really feel, God called you to be the Church Police, well then, I say carry on Solder.