Impossible to renew?

I’ve recently encountered a group of people who do not believe that a person can be reconciled. In their churches, if a person has been in their fellowship and testified of knowing God, and fell back into enslavement to sin, they don’t even pray for them for reconciliation because according to the Bible it is impossible (in their thinking).

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

1Jn 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
1Jn 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

Any thoughts on this?

1 Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted. 2 Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. 3 For if anyone thinks himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself. 4 But let each one examine his own work, and then he will have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another. 5 For each one shall bear his own load. (Galatians 6)

And those who heard it said; "Then
who can be saved?'
But he said, "The things which are
impossible with men are possible
with GOD."
Never underestimate the reach of
HIS grace, the depth of HIS love,
and the power of HIS Holy Spirit!!

It is my understanding of Hebrews 6 that if you are geniunely saved, and then commit deliberate apostasy, then it is impossible for you to be restored to your former saving knowledge of Christ. A lot of my well meaning reformed brethren will bend over backwards, however, to tell you that Hebrews 6 doesn't mean this. Simply put though, if this warning doesn't mean one can fall away from the faith, then this passage simply does not have any meaning.

It seems that I recall in studying church history a while back, that this issue confronted the early Church when a time of persecution came. Some who had confessed Christ succumbed (offered incense to an idol) to keep from suffering death or imprisonment, essentially renouncing Christ. When the persecutions ceased, they sought readmission to the fellowship. I seem to recall a controversy in the history. I suspect that renouncing Christ (possibly the meaning of the Hebrews text) is not the same thing as "being taken in a fault," but am interested in considering these things from a different perspective.

It is my understanding of Hebrews 6 that if you are geniunely saved, and then commit deliberate apostasy, then it is impossible for you to be restored to your former saving knowledge of Christ. A lot of my well meaning reformed brethren will bend over backwards, however, to tell you that Hebrews 6 doesn't mean this. Simply put though, if this warning doesn't mean one can fall away from the faith, then this passage simply does not have any meaning.

Yes, But like we are not to judge whether some is born again or not. We are also not to judged this right?

Because:
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

He is able.

Also, heb 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

The field that is fruitful and beautiful but continually grows thorns and briars will eventually burn.

The thorns in in Mt 13:22??

Hebrews 6:3 And these we will do if God permits.

Hebrews 6:4 [conjunctive preposition linking previous statement] For it is impossible...

Is there responsibility for men? Absolutely. We need not rob God of any partcipation to accommodate such truth.

We do have to work out our salvation with fear and tembling for it is God working in us both to will and to do His good pleasure (Phil. 2:12-13).

Are there other forms of apostacy?
In Heb 12 it speaks about sins that God will not forgive, giving the example of Esau, among these are fornicator or profane person.

I believe in the doctrine of apostasy, but I also believe in the doctrine of perseverance of the saints.

It it by His grace alone that we will finish this race. There are many things that are hard to understand, there will be lingering failures, but lets hang on to the mercy of God and repent sincerely of all those sins and bondage even to the cost of our lives, our sanity, friends, and families.

We will not be alone, the Lord will help us, the author and finisher of our faith.

I’ve recently encountered a group of people who do not believe that a person can be reconciled. In their churches, if a person has been in their fellowship and testified of knowing God, and fell back into enslavement to sin, they don’t even pray for them for reconciliation because according to the Bible it is impossible (in their thinking).

What are we to make of Paul's instruction to the Corinthians to receive the incestuous man back with forgiveness and love once he was humbled?

Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many. So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow. Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him. For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye be obedient in all things. To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ; Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.
(2Co 2:6-11)

Wasn't the punishment done in love, to reform and not ruin him? Wouldn't a heart of love at least pray for the man?

In Christ,

Ron

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Read the verse... it say's "to renew them again unto REPENTANCE"

it does NOT say, "to renew them again unto SALVATION"

Salvation is a ONE TIME experience...

Repentance should be a Christian's DAILY experience...

Repentance is NOT salvation... you can repent and NOT be saved!!

Many unsaved people REPENT of their sin... BUT they are not regenerated.

The result of a believer "walking in the light" : REPENTANCE

Gaebelein's Annoted Bible
Hebrews 6:1

CHAPTER 6

1. Return to Judaism the crucifixion of the Son of God afresh (6:1-8)
2. Persuaded of better things: Comfort and hope (6:9-20)
Verses 1-8. A solemn warning follows, addressed to these Hebrews who were halting and in danger of turning back to Judaism, and doing so would crucify the Son of God afresh. "Therefore leaving the word of the beginning of Christ, let us go on to full growth; not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and faith in God, of a teaching of baptisms, and of laying on of hands and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment." It is of much importance to see that these things are not "the principles of the doctrine of Christ" (as the authorized version erroneously states). These things mentioned are the elementary things which the Jews had before Christ came and as they were still occupied with them, He exhorts to leave the word of the beginning of Christ, the Messiah, and to go on to full growth. The full growth is Christianity as revealed in the finished work of Christ, the glory of His Person, His priesthood and the fact that the believer is in Christ and complete in Him.

While these Hebrews had believed in Christ, that He had come, they had not gone on to this maturity and lacked the spiritual knowledge of what Christ had done and the blessed results of His work and priesthood. They were therefore to leave the elementary things which they had and believed in as Jews, and abandoning them, reach the true Christian maturity. And these elementary things consisted in repentance from dead works and of faith in God. This was known and taught in Judaism. But it is faith in God, but nothing is said of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. When baptism is mentioned and laying on of hands it has nothing whatever to do with Christian baptism, and much less does the laying on of hands mean "confirmation." (Confirmation as practiced in the Roman Catholic, Lutheran, Episcopal, and several other Protestant denominations is a merely ecclesiastical invention without the slightest scriptural foundation.) The word "baptism" is in the plural--"baptisms"--the different washings the Jews practice in connection with the ceremonial law, and so also the Jewish imposition of hands. These Jewish washings and purifications were only shadows of what was to come. It had come; and yet these Jews, though believing that Christ had come, still lingered in these things. Resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment, the things concerning the future were likewise the teachings they had in Judaism. But Christianity gives a higher truth, namely, "the resurrection from among the dead" and that the believer is passed from death unto life and shall not come into judgment.--"And this will he do if God permit"-- that is in the coming unfolding of true Christianity, the full growth, as given in chapters 7-10.

Before the author of the Epistle does this he shows what it would mean if these Hebrews turn back to Judaism altogether, and instead of going on to full growth would abandon the Christian ground they occupied as professing believers in Christ. Such a course would make it impossible to renew them again to repentance, for they, by falling away, crucified afresh for themselves the Son of God, putting Him to open shame. They committed the crime, which was done by them through ignorance (Lu 23:34; Ac 3:17), now knowingly of their own will and choice. For such a wilful falling away there was no remedy. The things mentioned in verses 4 and 5 show the possibility that a person may be enlightened, and have tested, and even participated, by listening to the testimony of the Spirit concerning Christ, and seen miracles, the powers of the age to come--without having fully accepted the offered salvation.

"The warning here has been a sore perplexity to many who are far as possible from the condition which is here contemplated. The description of these apostates, solemn as it is, does not speak of them as children of God, as justified by faith, or in any way which would imply such things as these; and the apostle, after describing them, immediately adds, as to those whom he is addressing; 'But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, even things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.' This is the most distinct assurance that he had no thought of one who had known salvation incurring the doom of an apostate" Numerical Bible.

All the blessings offered upon Christian ground are to such outward professors like rain, which instead of bringing forth from the ground useful herbs, brings thorns and briers, worthless, nigh unto cursing, and then the end, to be burned. Of a true child of God this can never be said.

("When once we have understood that this passage is a comparison of the power of the spiritual system with Judaism, and that it speaks of giving up the former, after having known it, its difficulty disappears. The possession of life is not supposed, nor is that question touched. The passage speaks, not of life, but of the Holy Ghost as a power present in Christianity. To "taste the good word" is to have understood how precious that word is; and not the having been quickened by its means. Hence in speaking to the Jewish Christians he hopes better things and things which accompany salvation, so that all these things could be there and yet no salvation. Fruit there could not be. That supports life" Synopsis of the Bible.)

Verses 9-20, Words of comfort and hope conclude this chapter. He addresses them now as "beloved," of whom he is persuaded of better things, the things which accompany salvation. Their true faith had been manifested by works. And God is not unrighteous "to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have showed towards His name in that ye have ministered unto the saints and do minister." These are things which accompany salvation. He encourages them to be followers of them who through patience and faith inherit the promises. He calls their attention to Abraham, the father of the faithful. He endured patiently and obtained the promise. And He gave not only the promise of His Word, but also His oath. "For when God made promise to Abraham, because He could swear by no greater, He swore by Himself." What assurance therefore--God's Word and God's oath. And this makes manifest to the heirs of promise (believers) the immutability of His counsel, so that we might have strong consolation. Therefore those who trust and hope for future glory have a strong and satisfying consolation. But there is more than that. There is a personal guarantee, for the Lord Jesus as a forerunner has entered into heaven, where He now is as high priest after the order of Melchisedec. He, who is our hope, is there as a forerunner and this is the anchor of the soul; it anchors in Him who hath entered within the vail. He who is seated in glory is the promised One, the object, bearer and dispenser of all the promises of God. In Him and His work all is made secure. His presence there speaks of the ultimate realization of all the promises of glory for His people.

This is not for the Body of Christ, this is for the apostate Jew contemplating and saying in their heart that Christ is of no avail and this would take them not into the anchor of their souls which is Christ in you the Hope of Glory, but into the very fearful hands of the living God, who has caused darkness and earth quakes and rent the Vail in their midst.

Hebrews 10:29-31 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

In Christ: Phillip

"Read the verse... it say's "to renew them again unto REPENTANCE"

it does NOT say, "to renew them again unto SALVATION"

Salvation is a ONE TIME experience..."

Great insight "dspks", I do hope some will at least give some consideration to the few words you posted.

As one poster ignorantly states, "A lot of my well meaning reformed brethren will bend over backwards, however, to tell you that Hebrews 6 doesn't mean this."

I say ignorantly for at least two reasons;

1) Because Hebrews 6 along with the whole of Scripture does absolutely teach that none who have been born of God and made a new creature,who are His sheep,shall ever perish. He surely disciplines those sons He receives and loves who are in Christ and are His own.

2) Those who'd call themselves "reformed" are not the only ones who'd "bend over backwards" to refute the lie that one for whom Christ died,called,regenerated,justified and has given eternal life to and keeps by His Own Power, can or will ultimately perish.

There are numerous others who do not call themselves "reformed" who know this is Truth,who believe it and teach it,and call that which is to the contrary (i.e. 'losing salvation') a lie and a false teaching.

I know this has been the subject of many a thread here on S.I. and elsewhere. If someone knows how or where to direct those interested in those threads it may be of help to them.

It may be worth ones while to study and show himself approved unto God,as one Truth,just as one error, has divers ramifications.

I once believed and defended these lies and others which are intricately connected.

May all who read...

Bless God.

How can people be so blind when they try to fit the Bible into their own box of theology.

If the author of the Book of Hebrews is conditioning repentance with crucifying the son of God, and is saying the reason why someone can not repent a gain is because he can not crucify the Son of God again
( the word fresh here means a second time).
We all know that when we were saved, we had an initial and major repentance of all of our past sins. The reason we were forgiven when we repented is because God took our sins and laid them on Christ. After this point we were given every thing we needed for life and godliness, that we may live a life pleasing unto God enabled by His Holy Spirit . That is not an automatic task. It is our human responsibility to live in the Spirit and to put to death the deeds of the flesh. Man can still sin against all of this and choose to live in the flesh. To those the Apostle gives the warning that this major act of repentance when they were justified by faith in the Son of God can not be repeated again.

""Repentance is NOT salvation... you can repent and NOT be saved!! ""

""Many unsaved people REPENT of their sin... BUT they are not regenerated.""

I agree that people can repent and not be saved, but can they be saved without repentance. If the Apostle is saying they can not repent, then how can they be saved of the sins they have committed after they have received the knowledge of the truth, yet they went ahead and sinned against it anyway.

I have been meaning to do it, but time has not permitted, but I would like, for the sake of this discussion, to carefully walk through Hebrews 6:4-6, and examine it verse by verse, and then quickly look at the verses that follow it, as a means of giving it greater context.

Examining the Verses:
=====================
Hebrews 6:4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit

"In the case of..."
The author of Hebrews, when writing this passage, has in mind actual real people who fit the criteria of the scenario he is talking about. These people are not theoretical individuals. He has in mind a case study involving real people, real faces, real names, and real souls.

"those who have once been enlightened"
In other words, the author of Hebrews has in mind people who were once blind, but began to see.

"AND have tasted of the heavenly gift"
Prior to their tasting of the heavenly gift, these people would have been without the experiential knowledge that is conveyed to one who tastes.

"AND have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit"
These people have also been made partakers (partners) with the Holy Spirit.

---

Hebrews 6:5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

"AND have tasted the good word of God"
These people have also come to have an experiential knowledge of God's word.

"AND the powers of the age to come"
These people have also come to know something of the new heavens and earth in the here and now. The experience has been nothing less than powerful.

---

Hebrews 6:6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

"AND then have fallen away"
Though these people have experienced everything as outlined in verses 5-6, that is, having been saved, these people have also fallen away. The word for "fallen away" conveys the idea of turning away from the right path. That is, these individuals were on the right path, but at some point, they deliberately turned away.

"it is impossible to renew them again to repentance"
These people are now entirely without any hope whatsoever. Hope is impossible for them. A hope to what? To get them back on the narrow path that leads to life. They can no longer "renew" themselves. There is no "again" for their faith. Having deliberately turned away from the right path, they can no longer turn to the right path. Thus, they cannot "again" experience "repentance." Repentance being that "change" of heart and mind that always accompanies saving faith. Here we have a picture of a man who had experienced all the things of verses 5-6, but has deliberately now, turned his back on Christ.

"since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame."
This is the reason why there is no possibility of them finding repentance again, and getting back on the right path of faith. To attempt to do so is like trying to crucify the Son of God all over again. And God simply will not have that.
=====================

Then the author of Hebrews in verses 7 & 8 goes on to give an analogy of this entire thought: If the ground drinks rain from heaven, and yields fruit, it is blessed. But if the same ground drinks rain from heaven, and produces thorns and thistles, it is cursed and "ends up being burned." Far from using this analogy as many do to somehow soften the exegesis of verses 4-6, this illustration is only used to reinforce the terror of these verses.

Which is why in verses 9-12, the author of Hebrews has to become very pastoral and say he is believing the Lord for better things regarding these people. For he had undoubtedly scared them to death in his manner of speaking. So much so that even some of you have been so terrified after reading a passage like this. Indeed, some people have been so terrified over the meaning of this passage, that they have resorted to changing its meaning altogether to avoid the dreadful implications.

And, instead of leaving them feeling as if they were hanging on the edge of a cliff, with the dreadful fear of falling away and becoming apostate (as some people actually had done in the past), the author of Hebrews exhorts these believers to become imitators of those who didn't fall away, but instead, persevered with endurance, and finally, inherited the promises of God. And indeed, these believers need not fear this thing for themselves, for though it could happen, why should they find any reason to turn from God? Just look how at how awesome He is! For when we keep our hope in Him, that hope becomes an anchor to the soul, and will keep us from going anywhere but where we are. (vv. 13-20)

At any rate, that is my full careful take on this controversial passage. May God speak to you through it.

KingJimmy,

THANK YOU.

4 For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they then fall away, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. 7 For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.

9 Though we speak in this way, yet in YOUR CASE, beloved, we feel sure of better things—THINGS THAT BELONG TO SALVATION.
Hebrews 6:4-9 (emphasis added)

It would indeed seem that v9 clarifies that the preceding verses do not necessarily refer to saving grace, even though there is an experiential element to the issue at hand.

Furthermore, if one wants to take v4-6 alone and say outright that renewal is wholy impossible, what do you do about the passages that admonish believers to actually seek to restore brethren that have stumbled and fallen?

22 And have mercy on those who doubt; 23 save others by snatching them out of the fire; to others show mercy with fear, hating even the garment stained by the flesh.
24 Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy, 25 to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.
Jude 22-25

1 Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted. 2 Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.
Galatians 6:1-2

20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
James 5:20

Futhermore, if one wants to take v4-6 alone and say outright t about the passages that admonish believers to actually seek teek to restore brethren that have stumbled and fallen?

I believe Hebrews 6 is specifically talking about apostasy/blasphemy of the Spirit. It does not include other sins.

THANKS for all of your comments. I have been praying about how to address this issue. In looking at it more deeply, I thought about Peter ... he fits all of the description of "impossible to renew" before falling and denying Christ ... power to heal ... mount of transfiguration experience ... several confessions of KNOWING the Word made flesh ... yet he fell.

Then, after he was baptised in the Holy Ghost (Gal. ch. 2), he fell into hypocracy ...

I really believe that he repented before (as history tells us) he was crucified upside down.

He certainly commended Paul in his epistles even though Paul had rebuked him face to face.

Lorddoitagain,

I do not think that Peter fits the description of Impossible to renew in any way.

In you want an example from the deciples, it would be Judas rather than Peter.

Our Lord had for- prophesied of Judas fate when He said: Woe to that man be whom the Son of Man is betrayed."

Greetings

As noted we are dealing with repentance here that is no small thing because without repentance one dies in their sin and that includes Christians

Christians who sin presumptuously (or in ignorance but then when they have become aware continue in their sin) and/or without repenting will become impossible to renew unto repentance.

Christian sin is a real problem in the church and personally I have found it so rampant that when considering who to employ or enter into a contract with, history says that I am better off to rule out trusting a Christian. I am talking of multiple churches and high ranking members in the church and in the community that lie and steal without a second thought.

Why is this so.........because when they first started down that road they did not repent and now satan has them so strongly in his grasp that they fulfill the lesson of Jesus when he speaks of the unclean spirit returning to a man.

Doug

Why does everybody take these scripture and make them to be responsible for repentance of man. These scripture are an assurance of Gods trustworthiness when it comes to those that He has given the heavenly gift. Stating all these things God has done and then you think it is man's responsibility to repent. The only way a man won't repent is if God won't give it. This is for the believer to go on into the perfection of Christ. Not to think he will be cast away if he does not repent. Only God grants repentance that changes us. Romans 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? 2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Only God birthed His Son in us that have tasted of the heavenly gift and He will not take away what He has begun in the believer, He will perfect it until the end. This is and assurance that if His children could do what he say will send them to be burned is to say It is impossible that He will. But If He did that is what would happen. That is not what He does by the birthing of His Son in the believer, God is not so stupid to allow a birthing and it come to repentance that can abort His Son in the believer. His Incorruptable Seed in the believer is not capable of abortion. If this was possible to leave and not be renewed, God has given the wrong ones to His Son.
Hebrews 6:7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: These are those God has birthed by the Incorruptable Seed of the Father, Jesus Christ in the Believer, the Born Again, which are Christs and He will not loose any except one, Judas.

We drink in the rain that often comes and we produce the fruit meet by whom we are dressed, Jesus Christ. We receive blessing from God, even our salvation which is true.

These that produce thorns and are burned are not the born again our the Christ Seed is impotent and no ones birthing stands before God. Christ promises those the Father gives Him He will not loose, and will keep them until that day.

Hebrews 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

This is what happens to those that are in Christ and accompanies salvation; Hebrews 6:9-14 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises. For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself, Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.

We are multiplied by the giving to the Son those that should be saved and by the silliness of preaching the Word of God that the Holy Spirit might convict of sin and bring those to Christ the Father has given Him.

He will multiply His Church and make no mistake He will choose rightly and perfect those that He gives to His Son for His own Body His Church.

Let us go on into perfection which is Christ Jesus the Son of God who is now our Spirit birthed by the Father in us. The Holy Spirit giving power to each believer that He is in the Body and baptized into One Spirit. That is the Spirit of Christ birthed in us and The Holy Spirit in is forever to teach us this mystery of Christ in you the Hope of Glory.

Ro 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Ro 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Ro 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Ro 15:19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.

Ro 15:30 Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ's sake, and for the love of the Spirit, that ye strive together with me in your prayers to God for me;

2Co 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

Ga 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Ga 6:18 Brethren, the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Amen. Unto the Galatians written from Rome.

Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

Php 1:27 Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

"Moving on into perfection". It is the Father and Jesus Christ the Son and the Holy Spirit that will keep you and show you greater things that we ever thought possible.

2Th 3:3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

The Great Grace of the Father and the Son given and working by the Holy Spirit; Ephesians 2:19-22 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

In Christ The greatest miracle of all: Phillip

It is my understanding of Hebrews 6 that if you are geniunely saved, and then commit deliberate apostasy, then it is impossible for you to be restored to your former saving knowledge of Christ. A lot of my well meaning reformed brethren will bend over backwards, however, to tell you that Hebrews 6 doesn't mean this.

Jimmy, you don't have to bend over backwards to come to the conclusion of your reformed friends. You just have to read the passage in its historical grammatical context: the context within the passage, the chapter, the book, the history and purpose of the author, and the context of the entire Word of God. It's not that difficult if you just read a passage in its context...unless, of course, you come to the Scriptures with a preconcieved doctrine that you want to read into the text.

I suggest that Judas fits every descriptive line item of the individual described in Hebrews 6:4-6. If I'm correct, then the passage very easily does not have to apply, and arguably by the entirety of the passage, shouldn't apply to "things that accompany salvation".

Second, the 1 John passage quoted for the sin that leads to death should be read in conjunction with James 5:18 and the passage by Paul in Corinthians dealing with those who fail to judge themselves prior to take the Lord's supper. If you read those passages together, on easily comes to the conclusion that the 1John passage is not referring to spiritual death but rather to physical death.

You just have to read the passage in its historical grammatical context: the context within the passage, the chapter, the book, the history and purpose of the author, and the context of the entire Word of God.

Indeed, and the immediate passage at hand in Hebrews 6 talks about the peril of falling away, and turning one's back on Christ for lesser things. Indeed, five such warnings about the dangers associated with falling away from the faith are found in the book of Hebrews. And at the same time, Hebrews is laboring to continually show how Christ is superior to everything, and one should not turn away as a result, but that one should keep on persevering in faith, and not shrinking back. The book of Hebrews has little to no point if it is not read in the context of enduring faith vs. falling away from faith. And falling away from faith is presented as a real possibility in the book, as the author not only talks about it in a theoretical fashion, but knows of people who have actually done such.

That might not fit one's reformed reading of the Scriptures. Again, I am sympathetic to my reformed brethren and cherish them greatly. I would not say that their positions don't have some merit to them. But after a hard and close look into the subject over the years, I cannot help but conclude that the book of Hebrews just does not fit into reformed theology.

Then those that are going on into perfection are not in danger of falling away, are they?

What is perfection? Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man ((((perfect in Christ Jesus)))): Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

I count not myself also, but earerly trust God for His work which works in me mightily, His work, not mine, This is our labour.

Philippians 3:13-15 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, ((((as many as be perfect,)))) be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Birthing of the Incorruptable Seed of the Father, Christ Jesus, He is our perfection. In Christ, how great it is, to be One with the Father as Christ is and how great it is for us to be One with the Son, and have all the priviledges of the Son when it comes to access to the Throne of Grace which is Christ Jesus and the Father and the Holy Spirit full of Grace and truth, giving it freely to those that the Father has given to the Son.

In Christ, in scripture over 200 times, which is the great theme of all the Word of God and especially Paul great revelation of the Mystery, Which is Christ in You the Hope of Glory: Phillip

Boy, Snuf, I feel sorry for a Calvinist if that's how he feels!

:D

(No offense... just poking some good-natured fun at my Reformed colleagues)

What does Calvin have to do with God birthing His Son in the believer.

Calvin has everything to do with it. In fact, I think that there is evidence that Calvin was on the Grassy Knoll.

Please explain

Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Ro 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Ro 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, He that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by His Spirit that dwelleth in you.

1 Peter 1:18-23 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

What was foreordained before the the foundation of the world?

Ephesians 1:2-4 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

In Him and Him in us, by His workmanship;

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

"ye must be born again";

1 Peter 1:22-23 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

By the Word Himself in us, we are now son's of God;

John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

He is our life. He is our Light, He is our perfection even unto the Father, He is;

1 Corinthians 1:30-31 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Does this sound like Calvin?

In Christ: Phillip

He was the second gunman.

What?

Ephesians 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor course jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

I don't understand but still give thanks for you.

In Christ: Phillip

Christinyou.

Just playing around. Sometimes, I think that we can be way to serious... about a whole lot of nothing. Earlier, someone was trying to make some smiles with our refromed brothers. I in turn was doing the same. I appologize if I offended you. trying to smile is all. :-)

The message of He. 6 is consistent throughout the Bible both to the church in the wilderness and to the church of the NT. I cannot imagine any sect of Christianity not accepting the fact that there are Christians that not only will not bring forth 100 fold fruit there are ones that will fail miserably

God is not mocked and those who return to sin are worse off than had they never turned away from sin.

2nd Peter 2; 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

However for those who do not frustrate His Love go from Christ the seed sown in their heart to the fullness of Christ formed in us...... what greater reward could there be than that?

Blessings

Doug