The terrible doctrine of the Remnant. Who are they, and are you part of the Remnant?

By A.W.Tozer. From a previously unpublished essay and now in "Reclaiming Christianity." It was read out on our prayer call last night. http://www.box.net/shared/oe47j3glqb

Rom 9:27 Isaiah also cries concerning Israel, "though the numbers of the sons of Israel is as the sands of the sea, a remnant shall be saved.'

I want to articulate a doctrine in the Bible that is very troubling and alarming. I am very much afraid that the Bible is a more alarming book than we know .Before I explain what I mean, I would like to read the words of a hymn. I love this hymn from Edwin Hodder (1837-1904) about the Word.

The Word is like a garden , Lord
With flowers bright and fair;
And everyone who seeks may pluck
A lovely cluster there.
Thy Word is like a deep, deep mine;
And jewels rich and rare
Are hidden in its mighty depths
For every searcher there.

Thy Word is like a starry host;
A thousand rays of light
Are seen to guide the traveler
And make his pathway bright.
Thy Word is like an armory
Where soldiers may repair.
And find, for life's long battle day
All needful weapons there.

All of that is true. I enjoy hearing that song and I enjoy singing it. However, I am a little bit afraid that that is the attitude we take toward the Scriptures-that it is a beautiful jewel to wear on or around our neck or our finger, or corsage to wear at some dress up occasion where the star shines on it; that it is fragrant. It is all that. But it is something more than that, and in our simple elegance, I am afraid we are not letting the Word of God mean to us what it ought to mean. Whatever the educators may be saying, whatever the current religious vogue may be, here is doctrine clearly taught in the Scripture,, which cultists have mis-read and have wrested to their own destruction. For every cultist says " We are the people." But I refuse to reject the doctrine because somebody else has wrested the doctrine to his of her own destruction. I have neither starry hopes for you to admire nor posies for you to smell; but what I do have is a terrible doctrine that hurt and bothers and makes me sorrow in spirit. It is the doctrine of the Remnant.

Only a Fragment

What is the doctrine of the Remnant? It is simply this; that in our blind, fallen, sinful world of mankind, at any given time, the vast overwhelming majority is lost. And by lost, I do not mean they have missed their way or come short of the mark or are less that they wanted to be or fail to fulfill their dreams. By lost I mean, alienated from God and an enemy to Him, without pardon, without life, without hope. What does the doctrine of the Remnant mean? "Remnant,' means a small fragment, a surviving trace. It means that some-thing yet remains when the larger body is somewhere else. The Romans 9:27 text deals with Israel, but it sets forth clearly the doctrine as applying to the entire human race as well as the Church. This was true among the nations before Abraham; it was true of Israel after Abraham; and it is true of the Church since Pentecost. I am alarmed because it has been true since Pentecost that such a vast number of people who call themselves Christians-the overwhelming majority-are nominal, and only a remnant is saved.

Look at some of the examples in the Bible. Jesus said, " And as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of Man( Luke 17:26) According to the Scripture, Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord, and there were seven other members of his family that were saved out of the whole population. I do not know what the population was, but I know at the time of the flood that there were eight persons saved out of a whole population. And I know that it is written that as it was in the days of Noah so shall it be in the days of the coming of the Son of man. Somebody says, " Mr Tozer, your taking it too seriously. Don't you remember when Elijah felt the way you feel and Elijah said," Oh Lord, I alone am left," and God said " Cheer up, Elijah; I have news for you. Seven thousand are in Israel that have not bowed their knees to Baal nor to his image." That sounds like a lot. Isn't that encouraging knowing that in Israel 7000 true Jews did not bow their knees to Baal?

Allow me to indulge in a little speculation. Suppose the population of Israel at the time was 7 million. I think that is a very conservative count. That would mean one tenth of 1 per-cent had not bowed their knee knees to Baal, and all the rest had. It would mean 1 in 1000. If you were to take at that time 1000 Jews, 999 of them secretly bowing the knee to Baal to keep out of trouble, and only one man stood boldly. But suppose for the sake of absolute fairness we cut the population in half, and say there were only 3.5 million. Then the ratio is 1 in 500. Every time you saw a synagogue or a building with 500 Jews reading the Torah or listening to the chant of the Priests, you had 499 secretly following Baal and 1 was saved. Remember, at Christ's first coming there were only a few that that recognized Him. We take it for granted, just as Israel did, that when Messiah came they would know it.

They believed just what Samson believed when he went to sleep in the lap of Delilah. He believed that he was well set for life and that he had some experience in religion, and therefore there was nothing to worry about. But when he awoke, he found out that he had been captured, and his eyes were soon put out, and he was grinding, at the mill and they were making sport of him in the name of a false god. He took himself for granted, which always is a bad and dangerous thing to do.

Either we take ourselves for granted and have a sham peace or we get disturbed and then we pray through and find true peace. Most believers take themselves for granted and have a false peace. If they did what the Bible taught, they would be bothered and alarmed about themselves and would go to God with an open Bible and let the Bible cut them to pieces and put them together again, then give them peace. And the peace they had when they had been chopped to pieces by the Holy Spirit and the Sword of the Spirit-that peace, then, is a legitimate peace. There are two kinds of tranquility, and do not forget it. Well, maybe there are three kinds now. There;s the kind that you buy in bottles, and then there's the kind that you get from taking yourself for granted and believing good things about yourself that is not true. That brings a certain tranquility to the mind.

Then there is the tranquility that comes following a disturbance of the soul that shakes it to its foundations and drives the man or woman to God with an open Bible to cry " Search me, O God, and know my heart; try me, and know my thoughts" (Ps.139:23) Then when God does that, we have an experience with God that gives us tranquility grounded upon the Rock. But with most Evangelical Christians today, their leaders go outside to bring them tranquility.

THE TRANQUILIZED CHURCH

The first offer from the Lord is not tranquility at all. The Lord at first offers us deliverance, forgiveness, renewal and making things right; and following that comes tranquility. But we are marketing tranquility now, selling it like soap, and asking our people in the name of John 3:16 to come and get tranquilized. And so we have tranquilized the Church that is enjoying herself immensely at banquets and times of fun and coffee-klatches and fellowships. Then she is singing about the Lord, "Thy Word is like a Garden Lord." I only call attention to ti because there is a danger that we make the Word of God to be something to give us tranquility. The wings of the churches, the ones that left open all day in the busy sections, you will find people come in and sit down. They do it, as the poet said, " To invite their souls and call in their thoughts of home and abroad and get still."

Businessmen and advertising men do that, and mystics from India and from Burma do that. That is not necessarily a Christian thing. It is a good thing, but it is not enough. We gear our services to tranquilize people and paralyze them. We ought to be alarmed by this doctrine of the Remnant. We ought not to allow ourselves to take ourselves for granted. We ought to be alarmed about it. Paul was troubled about this and wrote " But I keep under my my body, and bring into subjection; lest by any means when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway" (1 Cor 9:27) I have known preachers that preached a lifetime and ended up telling dirty stories-ended up being dirty, filthy old men. It is entirely possible for us to teach Bible school and be board members and sing in choirs and take part in church services and then finally find out that we are castaways and have never been of the Remnant at all. That is an alarming thing, but I do not apologize for alarming you. I am afraid that we are not alarmed enough. We ought to be disturbed about this, for it is summed up in the text " Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sands of the sea, a remnant shall be saved" ( Rom 9:27)

There were a few friends of God during Jesus' time, but when we think that the population of Jerusalem alone at the time of the Passover was a million, and that at Pentecost there was also a million people in that city but only 3000 were converted, we say " What a vast harvest that was." Well 3000 out of 1 million is not a vast harvest in my opinion. I wonder if there has ever been a time when there was a vast harvest. I know it was said of Scottish missionary John G. Paton (1824-1907) that he went to the New Hebrides and found not a Christian, and when he left, there was not a heathen. But I have always crossed my fingers when I read that statement because it is not according to the doctrine of the Remnant. For the doctrine of the Remnant is " though the number of the religious people should be as the sands of the sea, only a remnant shall be saved." It is not that they could not be, it is not that God does not want them to be, it is just that they are not.

When Christ came, there were shepherds and wise-men. And we hear about these friends of God, we are glad for them. But the point is, they were typically a small percentage of the whole. Well then, at the second coming of Jesus, He says " And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold" ( Matt 24:12) It does not say the love of many only, but every student of Greek will tell the same thing. There is an article, a positive definite article in there: "the." The specific ability to love shall wax cold. And Jesus said " Nevertheless, when the Son of man cometh, shall He find faith on the earth?" (Luke 18:8) He did not say that He will not find faith, but He said, "Shall He find faith on the earth?" So at the second coming of Christ, it will be as it was in the days of Noah; and in those days, Noah, the eighth person, was saved by water, by the ark. The rest of the population drowned. If you still want more support for the doctrine, read Church history. A small fragment, a surviving trace, always kept the faith while others took things for granted.

KNOWN BY THEIR FRUIT

Do you know what is wrong with us as a Church today? We are taking ourselves for granted. We are assuming that which may not be true at all; that which is founded upon wishful hoping and not upon sound Biblical experience in many cases. We have not been disturbed enough. We have not allowed God to plough furrows on our backs. We have not dared to go before God and have the examination made. We are afraid of what God will find , and we would rather wait. Therefore we have waited and settled down. There has always been a small remnant and they have been in the midst of all the rest. A million might wish with their lips and worship with their lips, but only a small fragment truly worship in their hearts in a way that honors and pleases God. We do not need to imagine it as an indication of vast spiritual or high degree of holiness when we see a church door open and multitudes spew out on the sidewalk. Follow them home. Follow them a half a block and see how they live. That is the way to tell. "Wherefore by their fruits you shall know them'( Matt 7:20)

Ask them to lead in prayer. Announce a prayer meeting and see how they will leave. Announce a banquet and see how they will come. In the church of God the " stop and go," signs are these: When it says go, "Banquet"; when it says stop " prayer meeting." The church of God follows it and we smile about it, but it is an alarming thing. I do not want to come before the Lord having soothed and petted people into some false sense of smug spiritual security. Read church history and see the fragments, or the remnant, that lived in the midst of it all. Read about the Waldensians and the Friends of God and the Brethren of the Common life and how few there were but how many went to church. It is possible to worship God with our lips and not worship God with our lives. If your life does not worship God, your lips do not worship God either.

I am troubled about all the people I see singing Handel's Messiah, especially during Easter season, without having the remotest notion of what it is about. They will stand up and sing, "Come unto Him, come unto Him," and they will not have any idea what it means. When Handle wrote it he said " When I was through, me thought I saw heaven open and all the angels of God gathered." That is how he felt. But many of us sing it and only enjoy it as music. We can come, sing hymns in church and only enjoy the dignity of the music as a relief from rock 'n' roll. Read about the remnant 600 years before Christ was born in Ezekiel 9:1-6. We say, :begin in the Kremlin, O God begin in the Kremlin and destroy those godless wretches." God days, "Begin at my sanctuary."

We say " Go to the church where the pastor denies the Bible and had nothing to preach but poetry." God says " Begin at my Sanctuary." But He says " Look out for the mark on the forehead." That indelible mark. He sent the man with the linen with an inkhorn, indelible ink, and said, " Go mark them, mark them." Which ones will I mark? The ones that stand and pray the longest? The ones that give the most to missions? " No, no," He says, " that is not the test. Here is the test in a day of corruption: those who sigh and cry for all the abominations that are coming in the midst of Jerusalem."

That is all they have to do. Some things are like a wave on the sea. You can stand, and Paul himself could not shout it back, for it would engulf him. But you do not have to get the mark of the remnant on your forehead, you do not have to succeed, and you do not have to be popular. You only have to sigh and cry for the abominations that are taking place in the earth today. I cannot stop people from doing what they are doing, but at least I can grieve because they will not stop; and I am going to do that. I am going to let my tears water the footsteps of those who go astray. . And when the churches will not come back to the New Testament standards and worship the Lord our God in the beauty of Holiness, if I cannot make them do it or persuade them to do it in this awful hour of crisis, at least I can weep because they will not come. And I can sigh if I cannot weep.

I do not know what the future holds. But I know one thing: Rather than betray the sheep of God, rather than lie to them and deceive them and keep them agitated and stirred up with all kinds of popular topics; rather than take my material from Time magazine, I'll preach the Word of God to empty seats and sigh and cry for the abominations that is in the earth.

So God says " Begin with my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house" (Ezek 9:6) Sounds like these young people are the trouble. These young people are filled lust and wild ideas; but the Scriptures say, begin with the ancient men, which are before the house. "These old bearded pillars of the church,' says the Holy Spirit, begin with them. " And it came to pass, while they were slaying them, and I was left, that I fell upon my face, and cried , and said, Ah Lord God! Wilt thou destroy all the residue of Israel in thy pouring out of thy fury upon Jerusalem?" (Ezek 9:8)

If the evangelical church, the fundamentalist believing Church, will not accept this, then I can at least sigh because they will not, and cry to God because they do not.

Sojourner wrote.......

"Yet, through it all; there marches that
powerful army of the meek; GOD'S elect,
who can't be bought, flattered, ignored,
or silenced. On through the ages they
march, a remnant of the righteous!!

Amen brother, some beautiful words, could not have said it better. There are men in the church today who speak out of the abundance of their schooling, their education,always exciting people and agitating people with the topic of the day, ripped from the headlines. And then there is the fragrant saints down through the ages who speak by the power of the Holy Spirit. Today, there is a desperate need to hear from men of God who speak to the hearts of men. These men will be humble, they will not be self promoters, they will only promote the glory of the risen Christ and lift men's eyes to Him. They will speak the doctrine of the remnant and they will not be popular........brother Frank

The Church is the remnant

Wasn't it the other way around? :P

"quote]The Church is the remnant

"Wasn't it the other way around? :P"

Great point.

Inthelight says......

"What a sobering article; my flesh reels against what it teaches, The Spirit bears witness to its truth."

"My conecern is, what are we now to do? We must not discard this doctrine but neither should we - as Tozer points out - wrest it to our own destruction."

I believe the " what do we do now,' is already beginning to happen all over. There are beginning to be gatherings of people who are simply hungry and thirsty for the presence of God. People are leaving the church system. They are seeking the presence of God. Yet it is by way of the desert............brother Frank

For those who read this, its a sobering essay. Its not about calling it the " church," or the " remnant." Its about the doctrine itself. And the doctrine itself should be a terrifying doctrine to all of Christendom and all church-goers.................brother Frank

HI Ad

"What a need there is for a gathering into true oneness of the scattered people of God, and so of a further adding to Christ of others besides!"

Brother I totally believe that is coming. In many ways I believe that is what Brian Long's church down in Barnsdall represents in a small way. If we know the history of the church, we know that there has always been a visible representation of the remnant. They have been known by many different names and they always operated outside of the " organized, institutional," church. As God pours out His Spirit on His remnant, then they are typically persecuted by Christendom..........brother Frank

Hi Ginnyrose,

It is reckoned that after the exile, only 43,000 returned. Just over 500,000 chose to stay in Babylon. The vast majority chose to stay in the " world,' rather than come out of it and return with the remnant. It is suggested that most stayed because of political and financial success, comfort...........Frank

Hi Phillip....did you read the original post? Its just that it answers your question........brother Frank

Philip, this is about the established church, not the remnant or the Body of Christ, I believe that you may be mixing the two together, please correct me if I am wrong. Christendom itself has nothing to do with the Body of Christ. You write.........

"This is where we all should be, lifting each other up in the Grace of Jesus Christ that is our life, praising God always that His Plan is Perfect."

Philip, what would you have done 500 years ago? Would you have argued against the Reformation? Do you know that these same arguments were used against Luther? Would you have stayed within the Catholic church? .........brother Frank

Hi Philip, I know that your not in the Catholic church. Yet, in all likelyhood, if you were around 500 years ago, you would have been. There was a choice to be made. Now, what replaced the Catholic church? The Reformation churches. I would argue that they modeled their church system on the Catholic model. I also believe that there has been a Remnant church, a witness, down through the ages and it has been known by many different names. The one thing that they all had in common was that they were persecuted by the established church, by Christendom.

Can I ask you Philip, did you actually read the original post? ............brother Frank

PS I would suggest that you read "The Pilgrim Church." Greg used to have a link for it.

Hi Philip,

The original post, which I am assuming you did not read( please correct me if I am wrong) discusses the " terrible doctine of the remnant." If you do not agree with this doctrine, then I can accept that. God bless you Phillip.........brother Frank

Hi Philip,

I am glad that you clarified. We simply disagree then. Jesus said.........

Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Mat 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.
Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

The doctrine of Jesus............brother Frank

Very confusing. One could think that according to the remnant doctrine only a few of the professing church are truly saved and the rest are lost.
Where is God's grace in any of this?

Hi Rev,

Thats why Tozer calls it a "terrible," doctrine. Terrible because the reality is so fearful. Ravenhill is quoted as saying that he believed that only 2% of professing Christians in America were truly saved. When you consider that almost 90% of America claims to be Christian and 100 million claim to be born again, if true what Tozer and Ravenhill claim, its truly shocking. Wilberforce makes a similiar claim in "Real Christianity.' He wrote that if the present state of affairs continued in Britain (1800) then Britain would become a post Christian world.

C.S.Lewis writes about the same subject in "Mere Christianity," and said that the term "Christianity,' was rendered meaningless. He used the analogy of the word "Gentleman. In the 1700s in Britain, the term "Gentleman," was only used by those who owned land. As the decades went on, more and more men started calling themselves "Gentlemen," whether they owned land at all. Eventually, that vast majority of "Gentlemen," were not landowners at all, thus rendering the true origin of the word meaningless...........brother Frank

I agree with the thought behind the article, but I think the title is confusing. What Tozer’s really talking about is the doctrine of original sin or the depravity of man. The terrible thing that we human beings do not like to hear is the fact that we are born enemies of God. We are born cut off from God, slaves to sin, and children of the devil.

If Tozer was talking to those he felt were merely "professors" and not actually born – again, then he would have done better to simply preach the Gospel again starting with the fallen and “terrible” state of all men, just like Paul does in Romans. While I do agree there is a remnant theme within scripture, like any other theme in scripture, it should be taught within the context of the Gospel with Christ as its object. I am not sure Tozer does that here; thus, the confusion.

Hi Mahoney, I can tell you that he is definately not talking about original sin.

"The terrible thing that we human beings do not like to hear is the fact that we are born enemies of God. We are born cut off from God, slaves to sin, and children of the devil. "

I agree with that Mahoney, but that is another subject. Re-read the article and you will see that he is not talking about original sin, and neither was Ravenhill when he guessed the number of genuinly born-again as opposed to mere professors. In the article, Tozer talks about the mutitude " spewing,' out of church, but, he says " follow them home or follow them half a block," and see how they live...........brother Frank

You're right, He is not talking about original sin, but he would have done better if he did. My point is, the real terrible doctrine in the bible is not the teaching about the remnant, it is the doctrine that we are born guilty in Adam, lost, without God, slaves to sin, dead in our sin, enemies of God, rebels, God-haters, and unless God saves us we will remain as such and go to Hell for eternity.

I am not sure why we have to make a distinction between those who are saved and those who are not within the visible church, as though that is what will cause men to really act like Christians. No one really knows who is saved and who is not. We cannot know the hearts of men. On what basis did Ravenhill claim that only 2% of professing Christians are truly born-again? Did he have some secret knowledge? If you follow me home some days when my 5 kids are all acting up, I did not get much sleep, and had a bad day at work, you might question whether of not I'm one of the 2%. Would Ravenhill or Tozer condemn me?

The point Lewis was making in his "gentleman" illustration is that when someone used to use that word, they were simply stating a fact.

The word gentleman originally meant something recognizable; one who had a coat of arms and some landed property. When you called someone "a gentleman" you were not paying him a compliment, but merely stating a fact. If you said he was not "a gentleman" you were not insulting him, but giving information. There was no contradiction in saying that John was a liar and a gentleman; any more than there now is in saying that James is a fool and an M.A.

At some point it's meaning changed and started to become a compliment. It went from being a term, which describes an objective reality to a subjective term which meaning was solely based upon the one using the term.

When a word ceases to be a term of description and becomes merely a term of praise, it no longer tells you facts about the object: it only tells you about the speaker's attitude to that object. (A "nice" meal only means a meal the speaker likes.)

So when Tozer speaks of the remnant, is he talking about those that God, in His mercy, has saved out of the vast sea of lost humanity, or his he talking about those of whom he approves. I am not saying that to be "cheeky", but I am trying to make a point. Are only those who go to prayer meetings really saved?

I agree with Tozer, especially concerning his illustration about Samson.

They believed just what Samson believed when he went to sleep in the lap of Delilah. He believed that he was well set for life and that he had some experience in religion, and therefore there was nothing to worry about. But when he awoke, he found out that he had been captured, and his eyes were soon put out, and he was grinding, at the mill and they were making sport of him in the name of a false god. He took himself for granted, which always is a bad and dangerous thing to do.

But if we find ourselves in that place we should go not to subjective ideas about what a Christian is or does, but to the objective facts of what God has done for us in Christ. The Gospel justifies, it's the Gospel that sanctifies, and it's that Gospel that will glorify. The Gospel is the Power of God unto Salvation to everyone who believes. So even if we find ourselves in a place of utter weakness because of our laziness and rebellion, we must look to Christ and His work once again, which is what Samson must have done because we find him among the faithful in Hebrews 11.

Preach the Gospel with all of it's terrible and beautiful truth! Preach the Gospel!

Ravenhill is quoted as saying that he believed that only 2% of professing Christians in America were truly saved.

That's quite a statement. I am glad to read that that was his belief, not an actual statement of fact.

yes. amen. in Jesus Love, make it so. amen.

by KingJimmy on 2010/9/22 12:56:48 The Church is the remnant ~ Paul Washer

Which Church?

not yours

Mahoney writes......

"So when Tozer speaks of the remnant, is he talking about those that God, in His mercy, has saved out of the vast sea of lost humanity, or his he talking about those of whom he approves. I am not saying that to be "cheeky", but I am trying to make a point. Are only those who go to prayer meetings really saved?"

Hey brother, that made me smile, the " cheeky," part. I appreciate that you are making a point. Tozer is talking about, in my opinion, and he talks of it over and over again in his writings, those who have a had a radical encounter with Christ and are changed forever, not theologicaly, but actually.

It also made me smile about following you home some day when your kids are acting up :) Me too brother, me too. I believe that the point Tozer was making was about the changed life, about the holy and sanctified life as opposed to professors of religion who stepped forward one day and signed on the dotted line and got their fire insurance and continue to live as they lived before.

I think in the greater debate about why bother even talking about the Remnant is because of the lost souls and the horror of standing before God and hearing those aweful words " depart from me you workers of iniquity for I never knew you." If 90% of this country claim to be in Christ, and the vast majority are not, then this is the harvest field. Also, what a grand army it would be if the professors of religion discovered the reality of Christ and only lived for Him, if they did not bow the knee to the modern day Baals..........brother Frank

HI Philip....

"This receiving is not an act of men but an act of the work of Christ on the Cross."

Thats a whole other subject Philip, this is not what Tozer is writing about.

Gal 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
Gal 2:5 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.

Paul is identifying false brethren. Also, Paul spent three years, night and day, warning about false brethren, wolves in sheep's clothing. These false brethren, as identified in the above Scripture, were religious men. The history of Christendom is about religious men, in the name of Christ, persecuting the remnant, the few. Again, read the Pilgrim Church or Foxes Book of Martyrs. This is no new doctrine, its just that religious mens numbers are at an all time high, hence the low spiritual state.......brother Frank

Thanks mkal, that is why Tozer calls it a " terrible doctrine,' because the truth of it means that the vast majority of confessors are not saved. Christianity is more than a name or accident of natural birth, obviously.

Luk 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
Luk 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
Luk 8:14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
Luk 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Someone mentioned "millions of wandering Christians, leaving the churches". Heb. 13:13

Hebrews 11 - What has changed?

From Genesis through Revelation there is a religious system that opposes God and there is the Church in the wilderness.

Nothing has changed.

Does God treat a born-again Christian's known, unconfessed sins as different than an unbeliever's sins?

I thought Milt Green's audio sermons, "How the Church Has Failed to Fulfill God's Law" was very good. Actually, "What is True Salvation" is excellent.

""What is True Salvation" Now this has always been the question of the ages. I personally believe that most professors were never born-again in the first place. Many grow up in the church, many enjoy the word of God, but time and circumstances reveal all I believe. First of all, in my own personal experience, I would say that a man talks about his passion. Whether it is sports or cars or gambling or parties, men talk about their passions and they are drawn to people with similiar passions. Listen to any man talk and see if his passion is Jesus. Does he talk about Him personally?

Circumstances also reveals much, Jesus talks about this in the sower and the seed. The cares of life, persecution, riches and so on, these are revealed as we live our lives. Two houses can be standing side by side. Along comes a storm, and when the storm is over, only one house is still standing. This process could take a week or 40 years, but a man will be revealed as time passes. The false professor will be weakened and flounder under trials and persecution, the child of God is strenghtened by a God who never leaves him nor forsakes him. The religious man will be uncomfortable talking about Jesus personally, because he cannot relate, its not a personal relationship for the religious man, its information. He will be drawn towards politics and matters of the world, " tangible,' things he can relate to.

Its a large subject, but in a country where almost 90% claim to be Christian, its an important one.......brother Frank

I have heard Michael Pearl and Milt Green say that 98% of professing christians are lost.

Fruit is brought about by "knowing Christ", and the true "knowing" of Christ means surrender and submission and not going our way.

In this respect, Mike and Milt, may be right on, if not very close in their estimation.

The Word says He will judge us based on Him "Knowing Us" and Us, Knowing Him. A born-again Believer "knows" Christ. Even after their first prayer. But so many "inherit" their Christianity from their parents and have never had that personal encounter with Jesus Christ. That is why the Truth must be preached.

Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches: But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD. Jer 9:23-24

Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Mt. 7:20-23

And she had a sister called Mary, which also sat at Jesus' feet, and heard his word. But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me. And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things: But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her. Luke 10:39-42

Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Matt. 25:11-12

Pilgrim writes......

"Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches: But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD. Jer 9:23-24"

I was just reading that Scripture this morning. It is all about " knowing Him," and loving Him and this shows in our changed lives and passion. To encounter Jesus is to be ruined for all of this life. To love Him and to " walk,' with Him is what the desire of the saints heart is. Nothing would be too much for Him, He is our all and all and He is our grand obsession.........brother Frank

bless your spirit, and bless your very fingers that type the ourpouring of your heart IN Christ Jesus for such a post...which is a very goodword, to which i say amen.

humbly, i say , our only succor, is wrenching, travailing, Holy Ghost prayer of the kind that will wring us out to the extent that we become broken bread, weeping between the porch and the altar, unsung, unknown saints...unknown to all but God, who is Faithful, Who is the Yes and Amen.

myself, i, am not there yet. i have much personal work to do, i have transactions to do with God, but in His Strength, may it pleasure Him, to use me, use you, in such a ministry.

this ministry will have no "PR", no human accolades, no ego, it will not be televised, there will be little earthly resource or provision, but God willing, may we be allowed the Privledge to scale the heights of travailing prayer, as holy as a saved sinner can be.

i love you in the Lord, neil

My heart is so moved by the last three posts. Ah yes, the grand obsession. We will never be afraid to stand before the throne when our grand obsession has been Jesus.

"humbly, i say , our only succor, is wrenching, travailing, Holy Ghost prayer of the kind that will wring us out to the extent that we become broken bread, weeping between the porch and the altar, unsung, unknown saints...unknown to all but God, who is Faithful, Who is the Yes and Amen."

Broken bread, weeping between the porch and the alter. Ah yes brother, yes and amen to that. Yes and amen to unknown men praising the majestic God of all creation, who shines His marvelous light into the hearts of men that we may know the glory of God in the face of our King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Let us stand in that illumination, in the light of the candlestick of God, fed by the bread of life which is every word that proceedeth forth from God, and the incense of our prayers rising up before the very throne of God...........brother Frank

A good thing to remember is the story of the Remnant in Ezra. Of the almost 2 million Jews that were in Babylon, only 42,360 (Ezra 2:64) (2.5 percent) left Babylon to rebuild Jerusalem. Yes, only a small Remnant. Here is the important part, their attitude towards those who stayed was that they were returning to rebuild the City of God and that what they were doing was for them, also. It was not a holier than thou attitude that they "were in the system", "in the camp", "stuck in their denomination", etc., etc.

Their attitude was come when you can and rebuild with us.

I think as we study the Remnant in the OT, we can learn valuable lessons regarding the Remnant today. As you read Ezra, look what happened to the "Remnant".

" It was not a holier than thou attitude that they "were in the system", "in the camp", "stuck in their denomination", etc., etc."

I was just watching a video clip of Ravenhill last night where he said that every time you call for holiness, someone inevitably stands up and accuses you of being " holier than thou." :)

The Jewish people that stayed behind in Babylon stayed behind becuause they had becomce accustomed to the ways of Babylon, become comfortable. The Remnant people of God are not some exlusive club, they are the ' whosoever." Whosever is hungry and thirsty and sigh and cry for the " abominations of Jerusalem." (Ezek 9) .........brother Frank

Hi David, that statement was not meant to be "judgemental," just an observation from different historical perspectives. Obvioulsy there would be individuals who did not stay behind because of comfort and the ways of Babylon, yet even the Remnant that did return were very " worldly." In fact, it gave birth to the Pharisee.

I am more interested in the parallel between the worldliness of the majority of the Jews and the worldliness of Christianity today. I am coming from the perspective of crisis................brother Frank

HI Phillip, you write.......

"There is no remnant in the Body of Christ."

Did someone say that there was ? Its Christendom that the article talks about, not the Body of Christ.

"unless you want to call the whole body of Christ the remnant."

There you go brother, now we are closer. We are called to reach out to those who are lost. In this country, for example, four out of five claim to be believers. If one is to reach out to the lost, then one will be reaching out to " believers." Perhaps we need a definition of terms for a clearer discussion?..........brother Frank

"The Jewish people that stayed behind in Babylon stayed behind becuause they had becomce accustomed to the ways of Babylon, become comfortable. The Remnant people of God are not some exlusive club, they are the ' whosoever." Whosever is hungry and thirsty and sigh and cry for the " abominations of Jerusalem." (Ezek 9) .........brother Frank"

Php 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Php 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

"There may come a time in the Lords will where we have to separate completely, but this should be free from all human emotion, pride or self seeking. God will judge Babylon in His time of judgements."

Hi David, do you know that the time is not at hand?

Rev 2:14 But I have a few things against you, because you have there those who hold the teachings of Balaam, who taught Balak to cast a stumbling-block before the sons of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols and to commit fornication.
Rev 2:15 So you also have those who hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.
Rev 2:16 Repent! But if not I will come to you quickly, and will fight with them by the sword of My mouth.

Rev 2:20 But I have a few things against you because you allow that woman Jezebel to teach, she saying herself to be a prophetess, and to cause My servants to go astray, and to commit fornication, and to eat idol-sacrifices.
Rev 2:21 And I gave her time that she might repent of her fornication, and she did not repent.
Rev 2:22 Behold, I am throwing her into a bed, and those who commit adultery with her into great affliction, unless they repent of their deeds.
Rev 2:23 And I will kill her children with death. And all the churches will know that I am He who searches the reins and hearts, and I will give to every one of you according to your works.

Rev 3:3 Remember then how you have received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.

Rev 3:14 And to the angel of the church of the Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Head of the creation of God, says these things:
Rev 3:15 I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I would that you were cold or hot.
Rev 3:16 So because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth.
Rev 3:17 Because you say, I am rich and increased with goods and have need of nothing, and do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
Rev 3:18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold purified by fire, so that you may be rich; and white clothing, so that you may be clothed, and so that the shame of your nakedness does not appear. And anoint your eyes with eye salve, so that you may see.
Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten; therefore be zealous and repent.

Even before the Apostle Paul died, wolves in sheeps clothing were gathering. He did not cease to warn the brothers and sisters night and day. In a very short time in history, the so called universal church, the Catholic church had become a dead denomination and for hundreds of years the world was plunged into what was rightly called " the dark ages.' Yet all through that period there was a remnant, the true church of the Living God. And they were hunted and killed over all of the centuries, yet never bowed the knee to "Baal," or Rome. Even after the reformation, we see the anabaptists and the moravians and other groups hunted and killed by the " reformers." And so here we are in our day. Britain and Europe a post Christian world, most of all of the denominations dead or on their last legs in these places. A crisis of great magnitude stares us in the face. Almost 90% of Americans claiming to be Christian, 100 million claiming to be born again, and yet this, accrording to Barn is the most Biblicaly illiterate generation in almost 300 years. One can barely tell the difference between the world and "Christianity." Statistics show that the divorce rate in the " church," is the same and in some case worse than in the world.

Yes, a crisis indeed. Lines in the sand are being drawn, there is a seperation taking place. And it is not at the call of any man or men, it is the call of God to a people who are called by His name to come to Holiness, come and live a life of wholehearted worship and devotion to a Holy God. God is calling those who bow the name to Baal to stand up and repent quickly for you do not know the hour of His return. God is calling His people who sigh and cry at the abominations in the land to stand up and be bold. It may cost a man his ministry, it may cost another his reputation, it may cost another yet seperation from family, but it will cost and He is asking. God's people will stand up and follow Him, they will draw near to Him, wherever He is. They will follow Him wherever it takes them. Praise God for His mercy to men in this day, but we know the Lord is coming back and this is where mercy and judgement will meet. I believe that He is at the door. There is a fierce urgency in the hearts of many believers and they are crying out in prayer night and day. I truly hope and pray that "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." .............brother Frank

Here is the latest e-mail from Andrew Strom, seems to fit in well with this thread.........

WHY Are THEY LEAVING the CHURCHES??
-Andrew Strom.

Since we have been discussing the "Out-of-church" Christians,
I think it is very important for us all - including church leaders - to
look at the reasons why these people are leaving. Very often they
are NOT "church-hoppers" or backsliders. A lot of them are leaving
because they believe the CHURCH is backsliding!

So many people write to me from all over the world saying that
they have tried and tried - but they cannot find any fellowship in
their town that seems remotely biblical. They tell me they have
looked hard - but they are either cold, formal, or anti-charismatic
on one hand - or "hyper-charismaniac" or 'seeker-sensitive' on
the other. There hardly seems to be any balanced biblical approach
whichever way they turn.

It is easy to pass glib remarks like "There is no perfect church"
but my heart truly goes out to these ones because the church
scene has been bad for awhile - and seemingly growing worse
and worse. So what are people to do?

Below are some accounts that people have sent me about why
they have left the churches. We would love your comments on
this too at our website (link at the end)-

From: Peggy (-USA):
"My husband and I have been Christians for 30 years, home group
leaders for much of that time; my husband has also been a worship
leader for most of that time. However, now we are among the "out
of church" that your message describes, although we do continue
to meet and pray with other believers who feel the same longing
for something more real than we have experienced for longer than
we care to remember. The cry of our hearts is *not* to live on our
memories of incredible intimacy with God in years past, but to
discover Him anew and in deeper ways than ever before. We are
desperate for Him. In light of that hunger, the emptiness of our
church experience, a church we'd attended for 17 years, was
more than we could bear."

From: Randy (-USA):
"I read an explanation of why the phenomenon is growing - the out-
of-church Christians. They say that we are lone rangers, backsliders,
not team players, have bitter root judgements.... This can't be
further from the truth. When we have been attending church, we
find- No God - No Power- No Gospel- Bad Agendas- Poor Leader-
ship- Bad teaching- Bad programs- No Christ- No Healing- No
miracles. Just a struggle for personal power and control. I can't tell
you how many times I have been treated like I am not going to
Heaven because I am not attending church. So, the sad part is,
where do we take our gifts, our tithes, and our love - but out to the
streets. We know many who have left the church, who are
committed as prayer warriors, intercessors, missionaries, and
worshippers. Wanting to share their gifts from God..."

From: Dorie (Canada)-
"I wanted to write to you because I am so frustrated and don't know
what to do anymore... I grew up in a church denomination that was
wacky-charismatic with little-to-no-discernment and a lot of control/
spiritual abuse. About 10 years ago, the Lord gave me my first
wake-up call, grabbing my attention and then 5-6 years ago, another
big, final one...

Now I haven't really been "a part of a Sunday-morning-church" for
a long, long time. I have "fellowship" with some Evangelical
Christians here in Calgary, but just can't seem to be able to sit
through the dry services that seem filled with flowery messages,
as opaque as milk. (I want meat!!!) The worship feels like it is
being led by robots as do the people in the congregation. Or else,
the charismatic churches (Vineyard, Pentecostal, non-
denominational) where they're not considered to be "dry" (so-to-
speak), are just plain wacky! My problem is: I miss really good
worship music and intimate worship times with people who love
to worship and aren't being forced-to, but the only handful of
churches I know that have it, are wacky. People (worship leaders/
intercessors) are acting like Stacey Campbell and I get turned off
so much that I can't tolerate the rest of the service. I feel so torn.
I can't seem to find a church to "fit" in.

I've tried different denominations with no success. The last
evangelical "small group" I was in, ended breaking up because the
small-group pastor was purposely hiding the fact that a christian
couple who were co-leading with him, were living together and not
married. (Once saved, no need for any more personal repentance,
is what he preaches. Greasy-grace. Argh!)... The pastor also told
other young christians in that group that "sex before marriage was
fine"...

I have tried so many places and I'm not being fussy or picky, it
just seems really, really hard and weird here... I really want the
fellowship. I can't seem to fit anywhere, and I am so frustrated that
I could just cry. I long to be with like-minded people, sold-out,
crazy-on-fire for Jesus, totally unashamed. Christians here seem
so focused on their careers, and houses, and cars, and vacations
and I feel like a stinkin' hippie around them because I can't live for
those things!!

What do you do when you want so desperately to be in a fellowship
of believers that is growing strong in the Word, intimate and deep
in worship, and not wacky? I am so discouraged and have a hard
time believing that it exists..."

-Please comment on this topic at the website below-

http://www.johnthebaptisttv.com/

One obvious problem resulting in the seperatist way
--( and though this term is used, do not think for one second that i am against this )--
is a failure to follow literally Jesus comission before ascending to God's only great throne.

The question need be asked, "As i go along in the path of living, do i make disciples?"

Now Jesus emphasised "teaching them to observe..."

Teaching IN DISCIPLESHIP starts with showing others how we do live in Christ. It is showing others who come along side us to share in the life Jesus lives through us.

Sadly, many think training others into the faith is a matter of rote. Well meet in church, but after that, we will live our own lives, and 'perhaps' help if there is a pressing need.

Advice comes at little cost because words are cheap.

i have always gotten a kick out of one of D.L. Moody's quotes, and though i have never looked for the exact words, when it was heard, the concept stuck. He said something to the extent that "the Bible should be covered with shoe leather."

Exiting a church because of the love of many waxing cold is more than evident has a good place due to current trends and conditions in the world, (that are often more evident in the church,) but when we do this, are we ourselves making disciples: by the deeds we example and the words spoken by the leading of His Spirit?

If not, you are in for a hard road:
Been there.
Done that!

We all need each other, and though we can have a vibrant life in Jesus without all the clap-trap of dead traditionalism in a gathering of the worldly that says they believe, we need not close off contact with doors that have already been opened in our lives. (Just because we seperate from the ritual of certain day observances with them is no reason to cut off contact with individuals that may still be clinging to what is being shaken apart.)

i attend church Sundays, Wednesdays, and whenever else the doors are open and i can free up time to be there (almost every day) with a wonderful group of believers who follow Jesus, and God be praised that He led me to them in the first place. There are changes happening regularily as far as the old dry stale traditions go, but it is the opposite pole from what many are currently having to deal with and exit stage left. (Just make sure that you have a clear message from God before you do such: by His voice with scripture as well confirming convictions.)

(Weeks back, a prayer one Tuesday night after conference call corporate prayer finished and Brother Frank asked about any requests (weeks back) put a huge dent in the way the devil was working there in the hearts of a few. Praise God!)

All in all, what is being said is, the Body is universal, and the individual (true) churches form the cells of which this Body is composed. If we are not following Jesus comission in making disciples by example, teaching, we are walking towards very unstable ground in seperating. Better to find one or two within the group to fellowship with in praise and prayer in observing God's Word, (namely our Lord Christ Jesus) and the humble service of worship, than to become the lone ranger.

without a cell of the body to be part of, we are no better off than a lone mitochondria. It cannot function without the cell (which is part of the worldwide Body of Christ). We become not only outside of the Body, but outside the cell we can shrivel up and die.

Go, and as you are going, make disciples, teaching them (by example) in deed, then with words.

Salt and light do not need to say anything to make their presence known. "By their fruits ye shall know them" applies to us as well as the others we may be giving some attention to.

It only takes one contentious person to stulify God's Spirit in taking our focus off the Lord. The bitterness that spreads through such a one can become infectious.

Pray for unity for all of us who share convictions towards a pure faith in Jesus Christ. . .

And remember to pray for the upcoming Dallas Revival Conference beginning Oct. 19. Keep this in your prayers.

Appolus? Man i wish that at least one Barnsdale gathering could be attended. Maybe not this year, but who knows what will come about futurewise? The Lord: He has answered much more impossible prayers for me. i will definitely mark the next one far ahead of time and trust God to make a way for me.

Justanuthabrutha,
gregg

"Appolus? Man i wish that at least one Barnsdale gathering could be attended. Maybe not this year, but who knows what will come about futurewise? The Lord: He has answered much more impossible prayers for me. i will definitely mark the next one far ahead of time and trust God to make a way for me.'

Hey Gregg, I almost positive that we will have a gathering, probably even this year. Watch this space:) Or keep coming to the Tuesday night pray meeting :)

I agree with most of what you say above brother. In fact, I would say what is going on in Barnsdall is a great example of people coming out , but gathering........brother Frank

"Hello Frank you wrote
"do you know that the time is not at hand? "

I'm not sure from the context what time you are speaking of, but when I read your message and the e mail from Andrew Strom, I can understand your heart in this matter."

I am glad that you can see my heart in this matter. God bless you brother............brother Frank

We are locking this thread because of the link to outside media on the first post. And the conversation has seemed to run it course to the intended connivence and truths it was meant to discuss.