Rick Warren

I have read the Purpose Driven
Life five times. I found it to
be very helpful, very practical,
very useful in my Christian walk.

do a youtube of rick warren.

Sheep are lead. de-horned goats are driven... think about it.

I pray that this 'life change' is true. After hanging out with Bently and doing other very questionable things, anything he does is probably not going to do the Christian image a favor.

www.jsm.org
www.paulwhiteministries.org

Have you read the Purpose Driven
Life ?? Do yourself a favor,
read it before you form an opinion!

I have seen a lot of different threads as this one that look at different professing leaders, many of which have low estate of the individual, I have started and participated in such threads so I say this humble and in gentleness. Many out of intended curiosity ask questions of these individuals, what generally ends up happening is a free for all on that individual's character, relationships with God, manerism, doctrine, intrugrity, and the such. This may just be where God has me right now and I am starting to see why He has me here (its only by His grace that I continue)

Rick Warren has made some errors and lead people astray, but so have I. Rick Warrens theology may be off but so has mine. Rick's style of preaching may bring less glory to God then what we think it ought but my preaching has brought less glory. I say this only to say my stones I wish to cast need to be placed on the ground and left there. As to his repentance we will see the fruit of it, As to his godliness we will let the Lord decide what Pleases Him.

Please Keep in mind that is by shear Grace alone that you aren't Rick Warren, nor twice as in error he maybe.

The Blood will not cover what it was meant to uncover.
~ Duncan Cambell

I wanted to thank you for this quote, I hope you put it on the quote page!!

God bless,
Lisa

I understand your view but God will use this for His Glory whether those are the intention of Mr.Warren. These millions are still blind to the Gospel and in being so have given themselves to Rick Warren willingly, they have itching ears and want what Rick is giving them (unless of course He has repented as stated earlier by others) If he has repented he will then use his influence to bring those he lead astray back to the true faith. Remember that its only by grace you, yourself aren't living in the same error. My main point of posting what I did was to point out that nothing edifying comes about from these type of threads.

Again, prayerfully the man has the right "revelation" now.

Looking at the book for myself, it's loaded with works based theology which leads to death. What do you think the apostles fought so hard against? What do you think they meant when they were saying that our Faith should be kept pure? ANY mix of Jesus and 'me' ends in a false way and leads astray.

So, once again, what he supported (in light of this new life change) is the ministry of death and condemnation because it DOES NOT WORK! Now, does anyone have evidence to the 'new life change' posted on here? I would be in his corner if this were so.

Q. "Hello! Is Rick Warren a recommendable source?"

A. No! No! No!

I'd repeat EverestoSama's posts on this thread if I thought it'd help,but I'll rather trust that the Holy Spirit will convict His people and lead them to the truth in this matter.

I'll but add the following:

Rick Warren Teams Up with New Ager Leonard Sweet

Rick Warren has invited New Age proponent Leonard
Sweet to speak at the 2008 Saddleback Small Groups
Conference called Wired.

1 The theme of the conference is "Prepare your church for spiritual growth and connectivity."

Unfortunately, spiritual growth and connectivity ala Leonard Sweet could be a panentheistic, mystical dose of the New Age - and it isn't the first time Warren has found comradeship with Sweet.

Purpose Driven Resisters - Must Leave or Die

Those who oppose the "program" are called leaders from hell.

One of the tools Rick Warren uses to help churches
become Purpose Driven is a book called,

Transitioning: Leading Your Church Through Change.

The book is sold on Rick Warren's website and is written by Dan Southerland. According to pastors.com (Rick Warren's
website to pastors), Southerland is the director of
"Church Transitions Inc., an organization that trains
pastors and church leaders to effectively manage major
transitions. Southerland ... is the leading expert on
implementing the Purpose Driven paradigm in existing
churches."

Chapter six of Transitioning is called "Dealing with
Opposition" and is just one of many ways Rick Warren
tries to convey the fact that those who oppose him are
less than desirable. Southerland states:

We have experienced two major sources of criticism
during our transitions. The first is Christians from
more traditional backgrounds.... Not all of our
traditional backgrounded Christians have been critical
- just the ornery ones. Our second source of criticism
is traditional church pastors. Again, not all
traditional church pastors - just the meaner ones (p.
116).

Southerland tells readers that "some folks are going
to get very angry." He goes so far as to liken
opposers of Purpose Driven to "leader[s] from hell."

He says:

If you have read Nehemiah recently, you will remember
that Sanballat is Nehemiah's greatest critic and
number one enemy. Let me put it plainer than that.
Sanballat is a leader from hell. We all have some
Sanballats in our churches. This is the guy who
opposes whatever you propose.... You cannot call this
guy a leader from hell to his face - but you could
call him Sanballat (p. 115).

I ask! Has Warren repented of just this one of many evils he has instigated against our God!

God's judgement is upon this false prophet and those who follow. Whether the name be Glenn Beck,Barrack Obama,Benny Hinn,or the present Pope (you may add many others to the list),it is but the judgement of God upon those who receive not the love of the Truth as it is in Jesus and His Gospel.

Bless God.

I just added a message Rick Warren preached at the desiring God conference (John Piper's) to sermonindex.net I used to have a very bad view of Rick Warren but after spending some time following what he is saying and hearing his heart I realize I mis-judged him. He is not perfect but neither am I. I can learn much from Rick Warren.

Greg,

This is one of the many reasons why I can no longer recommend or endorse Sermonindex to anyone. It is extremely grieving to see the error your lack of discernment is leading you to. Not just with Warren but with other heretics that openly embrace perfectionism, Pelagianism, Moral Government theology, and Open Theism.

I've been a faithful follower of Sermonindex for many years, and have been blessed and edified by many a sermon on this site. However, other messages and preachers that you endorse have been a huge stumbling block for me, bringing me nothing but demonic clouds of confusion and condemnation. It's taken about a year and a half of the Lord working on my heart and filtering some of the garbage--and unlearning the faulty doctrine--I received from this site...but now by God's grace I've reached the point in my walk with Him where I can say that I'm no longer like "children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes" (Ephesians 4:4). The Lord has brought a measure of stability in my life, and I pray it continues that way. But this only came after taking a break from this site, delving into the Word, letting go of my own traditions, and after God allowed me to feast on the meat of sound, exegetical, and profound theological preaching.

Please don't misunderstand me. I'm nothing without the grace of God, and by no means have I "arrived" anywhere. I've still a long, long way to go; I still "press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus."

But I would only like you to prayerfully consider that in the name of "revival" and "unity" you are glancing over much dangerous leaven and error, and promoting false teachers...and you WILL have to give an account before the Lord for this grave error.

You don't know me, and I don't really know you. I have always assumed and hoped in love that you were a genuine brother in the Lord. And for the sake of Christ I will continue to hope and believe this, and say that I love you as a brother. But bearing in mind what our Lord told us about "causing one of these little ones to stumble", I would not want to be in your shoes.

I plead with you in love to not harden your heart, seek the Lord and ask Him to search your heart and reveal to you if you truly are in sin with respect to all of this. Prayerfully search the Scriptures and examine some of these preachers in the light of the Word (some of the particularly problematic ones have already been discussed and debated on these forums, but if you want I can give you a list of those that have personally been a stumblingblock for me). Please don't allow this leaven to spread any longer, or else the confusion and error WILL become worse... and I fear for what may happen to you, Sermonindex and the Revival Conferences.

May God bless you and restore you to repentance.
Aaron

Eh? this is just another post where those who know the truth share but it is not received by those who think they know the truth.

no harm, just saying this will go no where, as the object has shifted to a war on who is right/wrong. Warren knows what he is doing, he has studied people and deception for years to be able to do what he does.

Please do not argue over the man, it grieves God. Just endure in the Covenant Love He has set for us already.

Your Bro, Shawn.

Hi knitefall...

Warren knows what he is doing, he has studied people and deception for years to be able to do what he does.

Is this an opinion, or do you have some sort of inside information and firsthand testimony that this man (Warren) has "studied people and deception for year?"

I am not a big fan of some of the things that I have heard that Rick Warren teaches/believes. Yet I am also struck by the immense amount of "discernment" websites that are quick to form opinions on the man. It is NOT discernment to form an opinion entirely on reading things in websites and books that are critical of what the man supposedly teaches. Rather, true discernment is not swayed by the opinions or views of others. It sifts through the "spin" and looks for the truth of a matter.

I will be the first to admit that I am not an expert into all things Rick Warren. I have NEVER read a single one of his books. I have NEVER even listened to a sermon by the guy! However, I have seen quite a few fingers pointed at him. Some have even pronounced eternal sentence upon him!

We need to be careful not to bear false witness upon the guy. To do this, we need to search for truth about the matter ourselves rather than rely on some other person who supposes themselves to be a qualified expert in this matter. After all, there have even been people here on SermonIndex who claimed that Rick Warren wants to create a "one world religion" -- which is based upon nothing more than silly speculation coupled with finger pointing from many "discernment" websites.

Again, I am not a fan of Rick Warren. I don't listen to him. I am certainly not an expert in this man's teachings, beliefs, books or, of course, his heart. However, I also don't like to be lied to about specific allegations regarding "bad preachers" either. I have seen this happen in several "ministry" websites. If we want to entertain such specific allegations about a person, we might as well get it right.

Please do not argue over the man, it grieves God.

Is it possible that you have "argued" over the man by making such a bold declaration about whether he "studied people and deception" for years in order to do what he does?

If people want to discuss Rick Warren and scrutinize his specific beliefs, it would help if they could acknowledge the depth of their knowledge on the subject and whether or not they gained such knowledge from firsthand inspection or secondhand resources. I think that it is always good to be slow in casting an opinion of someone based upon the research of ANY person...because that person is fallible.

Anyway, I doubt that I will look into Rick Warren anytime soon. I just don't have time to go about disproving every preacher that I disagree with. In addition, I don't want to be the person who places a scarlet letter on their reputation. It is far more helpful, I think, to teach people "truth" rather than try to go around pointing out every supposed "lie." If we teach people spiritual truth, then they are more than able to discern what lines up with the Word of God.

If I happen to download a Rick Warren sermon here at SermonIndex, I will do my best to separate the wheat with the chaff -- as we should do with EVERY teacher.

I Thessalonians 5:21

The first speaker I had on the site was Leonard Ravenhill, the second A.W. Tozer and the third: T. Austin Sparks. These men were not reformed but men who "knew" God.

No, I was not particularly referring to any of those three. Sparks I have personally never listened to, so I wouldn't know about his life, but as for the other two I would agree with you that these were anointed men who were mightily used of God.

But as for your statement:

If you claim men like this who were so used of God are ministers of condemnation then I am very sad for you.

I plead with you to please come to your senses. This is the exact same thing that followers of Benny Hinn and other false prophets say when one points out their heretical doctrines and inconsistencies. With all due respect, since when was "being used of God" the measuring stick for a true man of God? King Saul was used of God, Balaam was used of God, even Judas Iscariot himself was greatly used of the Lord to accomplish His purposes. Yet we know the outcome and fruit of these men's lives and ministries. I'm certain you would never feature any of their articles or sermons on Sermonindex, had they any.

I ask you to please follow the same standard with any of the men on this website that you highly esteem. If you really love truth you will set aside your emotions, traditions, and any romanticized view you may have of these preachers and compare their teachings with the Bible.

The Scriptures clearly exhort us to examine everything in the light of the Word. Paul didn't get angry with the Bereans for searching the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so. He didn't become grieved that they didn't recognize just how mightily the Lord had used him. On the contrary, the author of Acts tells us that they were "more noble" than the rest. Paul himself warned the early Christians of the leaven of false teachers and false teaching, and never ceased to admonish them day and night with tears.

Brother Greg, my admonishment to you still stands. You can take it or leave it, accept it or reject it. That's between you and the Lord. What worries me, though, is the dangerous repercussions your decisions will have upon you and your ministry, and the many genuine believers that visit this site.

May the Lord help you, give you wisdom and discernment, and continue to conform you to His image. You are in my prayers.

hi, i had a close relationship with len ravenhill for a few years and he told me not to take anything any preacher said as gospel but to check it out with the scriptures and he said to check him especially for we are all human and subject to gross error with a pure heart.when you take a few minutes to type critical things about others without spending at least that amount of time in prayer for that brother or sister than you are on dangerous grounds with God who hates religeous snobs.(pharisees)love has power to cover a multitude of sins but anger,strife,bitterness or a critical spirit does absolutely no good except it harms the one who deals in them.brothers let us love one another for everyone who loves is born of God and knoweth God and he who loveth not knoweth not God for God is love.jimp

eh? like I said,

look at the evidence for a life change that was mentioned. I hope it is true. We tried to have him to discuss his actions and statements over the air but he refuses.

We dealt with him for weeks because the dumb church sheep were buying into the purpose driven lie, hook line and sinker.

Someone had to say something! You'd be surprised the things hidden between those lines in that book and other works done by the man.

Also, as I said in sorts, pray for him that this 'life change' be true. Otherwise, deal with the fruits like a good boy and good girl of the Word would do.

Rick Warren has given millions
to missions in Africa for clean
water, vaccines, school supplies
and books. Many thousands of
African children have these
necessities because Rick Warren
gave selflessly and generously.
He gives 90% of the royalties
earned from his book away.
He repaid more than 20 years
of salary back to Saddleback
Church when GOD made his
book a success!!

Know the character of the man
before you say a critical word !!

Hi jimp...

hi, i had a close relationship with len ravenhill for a few years and he told me not to take anything any preacher said as gospel but to check it out with the scriptures and he said to check him especially for we are all human and subject to gross error with a pure heart.

When I met with Brother Ravenhill in his home, he offered me a very similar exhortation. I was just a young teenage boy when I met with him shortly before he died, and he urged to me test everything that I have ever been taught...or would ever be taught again.

We should never fear examining the specific teachings and statements of a public preacher. However, we need to be very careful to get it right. If we are going to make public allegations, we need to make sure that we haven't just based them upon allegations that we obtained from a website or book that is critical of that person. We should endeavor to study or research into the matter ourselves...and make every effort to obtain clarity. This can mean seeking out to contact that person for clarity...or gentle restoration (if clarity proves that it is necessary).

I hope that no one else suspects that this is any sort of "muddying the water." Rather, it is separating through the mud to ascertain what is true and what is myth. We owe it to our faithful and omnipresent God to be correct before we entertain or spread EVERY allegation or insinuation.

I am not a "fan" of Rick Warren, but I am not a rhetorical assassin either. I've just read a lot of allegations and insinuations about the man which I don't know to be true or not. I think that we should be extremely careful before we go out and shoot arrows at someone who calls himself a brother. It may turn out that we are wrong in our evaluation...or that this person may only be flawed in only certain aspects of his doctrinal views.

If he is as wrong as some suggest, I wonder how many people have made the effort to "gently restore" him?

Quote from Greg

"I just added a message Rick Warren preached at the desiring God conference (John Piper's) to sermonindex.net

I used to have a very bad view of Rick Warren but after spending some time following what he is saying and hearing his heart I realize I mis-judged him. He is not perfect but neither am I. I can learn much from Rick Warren."

I cannot believe this. Yes, we are not perfect..so does that mean we accept false teachers?! This is a very wrong statement and shows no discernment. Paul was very zelouse in exposing the false. Check out the book of Gal. Paul didn't take light with false doctrines.

Rick Warren is very known with teaming up with "world religion". And I see that the leaven of Warren has spread now among those who are known to "listen to real truth and preachers". This is a great grievance to me. I see apostacy has even spread among those who are more considered to be "in the truth". This is really outragoes. I posted here before that I had a dream about Piper and I saw Piper with the word PRIDE written above his head. And this was way before I heard that Piper did a conference with Rick Warren. Piper have confess to pride too. But it seems he still in delusion. First delusion with Mark Driscoll and now with Warren. This is very sad to see and many people are falling for the lie. Because Piper is now promoting Warren many Christians think its O.k. to listen to Warren. Piper is leading many into delusion. Piper needs to repent.

Greg, I can't believe what you shared. My heart is really broken over you. I pray that the Lord will open your eyes and deliver you from delusion.

Like brother Aaron, I cannot endorse S.I any longer. I will no longer blog here.

In Christ, Lisa

He is a lightning rod for controversy. Here's more.

Front Page Magazine (frontpagemag.com) has branded Pastor Rick Warren a "shill for terror."because Warren is listed on the "Speakers Corner" of a Muslim group that some have linked to terror.He is fully aware of how he is being portrayed on the site but refuses to demand its deletion and offers no apology for its existence. Pastor Warren has become a shill for Islamic terror.

Wow. Way to turn on a fellow brother because you disagree with a few of his sermon choices.

Thank goodness no one is like this guy below.!.!.!.

Luke 18:9-14

The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector

Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

I'm not trying to stir anything up here, but personally, I think David Wilkerson could probably be in more trouble from a Biblical stand point than Rick Warren, and that Greg should sooner take down his material than Rick Warren's. I mean, it was over a year ago that the man gave a thus saith the Lord regarding a major disaster that was going to be happening in the immediate near future in the United States, and that we needed to stock up on food for this disaster. He was wrong. Yet, I don't see anybody here demanding Greg take his sermons down. And this wasn't exactly the first time Wilkerson has missed it when it comes to predicting things in the future.

So if we are going to complain...

Peace Brothers&Sisters,

Don't be so judgmental of Gregg. I would rather believe a man can change and hope the best for him.

There is only one sermon on this site by Rick Warren.

I think many of you need to listen to it. It will be a blessing to you.

Go ahead and humble yourself and listen to it. You will be surprised. It really is a good listen and much is needed for your christian walk.

Hmmm... interesting point KingJimmy.

Consider what ccchhhrrriiisss has been saying too, brothers. Let us be careful that we really know what we are talking about.

Brother Greg offers this site as a resource for a huge variety of people. It's up to us to take what we want... If he listened to the personal opinions of each of us, I think the only two preachers that would be left on here would be Ravenhill and Tozer. :D

I for one know little about Rick Warren personally, but I do have some checks in my spirit about his ministry. His is a high-profile ministry that has reached out in some very questionable ecumenical ways. A man is known by his friends, so that tells you something I think.

Let's keep this to the facts and put the flamethrowers away, please!

Peace in Jesus,

hi, i heard about this so called great preacher who they say led thousands to the Lord in one day but i would have nothing to do with him because i have information that he denied and even cursed Jesus when a small girl asked him about his relationship to Jesus...who could ever listen to a man who would do such things.jimp

by jimp
by jimp on 2010/10/6 23:26:41

hi, i heard about this so called great preacher who they say led thousands to the Lord in one day but i would have nothing to do with him because i have information that he denied and even cursed Jesus when a small girl asked him about his relationship to Jesus...who could ever listen to a man who would do such things.jimp

Haha good one!!!

-------------------

Be it known that “repentperish” had an agenda AT THE BEGINNING, he knew exactly how he felt about Rick Warren when he asked that “innocent” question, “Hello! Is Rick Warren a recommendable source?,” and then proceeded to lambast Greg over his own failures.

These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
A false witness that speaketh lies, AND HE THAT SOWETH DISCORD AMONG THE BRETHREN.
~ Proverbs 6:16-19

Lisa

This entire thread is a nonstop monster that will just keep growing, unfortunately it followed the pattern of past threads that started this way.

"The major problem here is that Rick Warren refuses to engage his critics or defend his ideas. Unless he is willing to argue for, say, his handling of Scripture, there can be no development of the critics’ understanding of his position.

This is not the fault of the critics, who have shown themselves to be very willing to engage; but rather of Warren, who refuses to enter into the conversation.

If he is misunderstood, let him answer his critics and show that he is actually exegeting Scripture in a faithful way consistent with the historic orthodox Christian faith."
Daniel Neades( better than sacrifice.org)

Thank you for your explaination and clarification! It definitely helps understand where you are coming from. :)

It makes sense, I know that the number of Christians in Japan is very small and those that profess Christianity being decieved is just salt to an open wound. I had no idea that the Japanese bible was hard to understand, I guess we take for granted the accessibleness of the English Translations that are clear and easy to read, perhaps you could begin a Japanese Translation that is easier to understand :)

Hey Alive-to-God,

http://davidwilkersontoday.blogspot.com/2009/03/urgent-message.html

No, David didn't use the words "immediate near future." He said it was "about to happen," in March of 2009. Practically he encouraged us to go ahead and store up a 30 day food supply, as the Lord had so directed him. While he said he did not know when these things would come to pass, he knew they weren't far off.

So, while yes, there could in theory still be validity to this word, I'm personally willing to ascribe it as a miss. And I'm guessing quite a bit of the food he would've bought at the time to store up for this calamity has since expired, or even gone bad.

But I think Wilkerson has given up on giving time specific words these days anyway. Especially since once upon a time he gave a word that TBN would be bankrupt by a specific date, and would go off the air. Of course, this did not happen.

But like I said, I'm not trying to hound Wilkerson here. I'm just saying, although I'm not a big Rick Warren fan for a variety of reasons, I'm not against his sermons being on this site. I'm not against them being on this site any more than I am David Wilkerson's messages, even though Wilkerson has gone into such deep error as to announce a thus saith the Lord over things about the future, and those things not come to pass. I'm just saying, if you are going to kick Warren out, you might as well toss Wilkerson out too. The way I see it, both have their share of error.

So, then, if any Japanese come to the LORD and live victoriously, it is even of a greater miracle then the one who has access to the WORD in a language that is readily understood....WOW!

Just a comment concerning Rick Warren, celebrity preachers AND ordinary ones...

In my lifetime of 63 years I have put preachers, including ordinary ones - ones not known outside of their community of Believers or physical community - on a pedestal. They taught well. I loved their insights and the methods they used in sharing them. Eventually, God knocked that pedestal down and my opinions of him would smash into a thousand pieces. You see, I was idolizing the person and that is a violation of the first commandment "Thou shalt have no other gods before me."

Today, I still have favorite preachers. I love to listen to Washer, e.g., but I know right well that depending on what subject he may get onto, my opinion may go to the basement...Now, where does this leave a body?

I look at preachers as human beings used by God who are of like passions as we. They also need a Savior - everyday. They are people who also need to die daily. My grandpa, who was my favorite preacher for many years, got knocked off of the pedestal good and proper. God still used him. He never taught false doctrine, he was just a human that had to deal with the flesh as do others and sometimes he messed up - not gross sin, but the flesh got in the way at times.

I am thankful for men and women who are brave enough to teach the WORD and not allow their own human weakness deter them from this mission. We who are the beneficiaries of their ministry must be like the Bereans to check out the Scriptures to see whether these things are so and act accordingly.

Confused yet? Do I like Warren and Wilkerson? I am like Chris - I have never read Warren; Wilkerson, yes, but...

My testimony and opinion....

ginnyrose

Hello...

It would help those of us who aren't "experts" into Rick Warren to actually be specific with these allegations.

There are plenty of allegations about Rick Warren. We have heard them many times here at SermonIndex (and in a lot of the "discernment" websites, magazines and books). These are often repeated without any citation or evidence...or are often apparently deduced by "reading between the lines."

Can someone:

1. List those specific allegations.
2. Provide specific citations from his books/words/sermons upon which the allegation is based upon.
3. Please indicate where YOU gathered or accessed the allegation/information/evidence (so that we can verify if this was done from personally testing/proving Rick Warren's statements -- or if this is repeating allegations made by someone else).

This would help us to separate the mud from the water...myth from rumor...bone from marrow...truth from lie. It would help those of us who are less aware of such things to examine these allegations ourselves...and then do whatever is necessary for clarity (such as contact Rick Warren and/or his ministry). This will help us avoid presumption and rely on evidential proof.

Not long ago, someone made some claims about Rick Warren. They tried to validate their claims with "evidence" -- which was nothing more than claims that they found at someone else's website. I discovered that the "quote" was fraudulent. However, it also caused me to contact his ministry for clarity regarding the essence of the allegation. The ministry contacted me, clarified Rick Warren's view, and even sent me some links where I found statements by Rick Warren that were contrary to what was claimed.

Please understand: I am not an apologist for Rick Warren. I don't listen to the man. I do not own -- nor have I read -- any of his books. I have never heard him preach a sermon. However, I have looked through what were claimed to be portions of his books at websites that were critical of the man. Moreover, if he is preaching heresy or even what I see as flawed doctrine, I would point it out. Given the gravity of the allegations, I think that we owe it to God to get it correct before we shoot those arrows that we sometimes think that we must shoot.

Over the years here at SermonIndex, there are men who have become the targets of allegations (or whispers). This isn't just the popular figures like Rick Warren, Joel Osteen or Benny Hinn. This includes men like Martin Luther, the Wesley brothers, C. S. Lewis, Charles Finney and even Matthew Henry. This includes less popular-culture type of preachers like David Wilkerson, Leonard Ravenhill, Paul Washer and even Corrie ten Boom. Most of the "arrows" that are shot are due to doctrinal differences. Often, some men and women are willing to shoot such arrows based upon that preacher's view on eschatology, Pentecostal views of the gifts of the Spirit, music, Calvinism (pro or con), etc...

I am not saying that this is the case here. However, I just urge caution in regard to public allegations like this. If we feel the urgent need to lay out such harsh allegations -- we owe it to God (and the target of this criticism) to get it right. We should certainly TEST and PROVE each message (and the character of those who teach it). However, we must be careful to get it right.

My biggest concern (from limited understanding that I have with Rick Warren) isn't just with what he may have said or taught. Rather, it is also with what he might NOT have said and taught. A person can stand on San Francisco "rainbow district" street corners and and preach "JESUS LOVES YOU" all day long. However, it doesn't necessarily teach the "whole counsel of God" if we neglect to teach all of the truth. Just like preaching the justice of God without the love and mercy of God is an error, so is teaching the love of God without mentioning His justice.

Just something to consider.

Blanket statements smother people. :)

I really wish everyone would pay attention to ccchhhrrriiisss and Natan4Jesus. They've got some good points, and everyone has been so ready to lampoon Warren that those very valid points have gone unnoticed. As one who knows precious little about him, I would like specifics... not arguments.

I do not feel Rick Warren is a good source of counsel or teaching, from the fruits I have seen in his increasingly liberal, ecumenical church plants. This is as far as I can say by experience.

Come now, and let us REASON together... not argue! There is so much vitriol flying around that it's hardly Christian. Can we not discuss something without being violent?

Many times, I feel we are dangerously close to the Pharisees as we carefully weigh out our doctrinal mint, anise and cumin, while passing over the weightier matters of the Law... judgment, mercy and faith. Brethren, where is our love? Remember that the self-same Jesus who called the Scribes and Pharisees vipers was also wept over them and their city... and said at the cross, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."

What has happened to the Jeremiahs and Daniels who will weep over the sins of the people, instead of lambasting them? Those of us who style themselves prophets, or gifted with discernerment, beware! Pride is ever before our door. "Satan will be more than happy to cure your chilblains if he can only give you cancer in return," says C.S. Lewis.

"Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned," says Paul. Let's keep first things first.

Peace in Jesus, the Lamb that was slain,

Quote, "Can someone:

1. List those specific allegations.
2. Provide specific citations from his books/words/sermons upon which the allegation is based upon.
3. Please indicate where YOU gathered or accessed the allegation/information/evidence (so that we can verify if this was done from personally testing/proving Rick Warren's statements -- or if this is repeating allegations made by someone else)."

One well researched book is, "Redefining Christianity: Understanding the Purpose Driven Life Movement".

Description of the book

The author of this book examines The Purpose Driven Church, The Purpose Driven Life, and the business system that Rick Warren has developed to promote it around the world. He looks carefully at his claims, his use of scripture, his integration of human wisdom with scripture, and his ability to get thousands of pastors to convert from expository Bible preaching to being Purpose Driven. In the end he compares Rick Warren’s version of “church health” with that of Jesus Christ. The reader will see how Rick Warren has indeed redefined Christianity.

One person wrote this about DeWaay's book,

"This book is a resourceful & painstaking effort on behalf of the author to methodically outline & expose the fundamental flaws with the Purpose Driven Movement. No stone is left unturned as chapter by chapter the problems with Rick Warren's best selling book are laid bare.

The book certainly goes beyond `food for thought' as Mr. DeWaay persistently & effectively shines the light of God's holy word into many of the PDL myths... shaking it to its very foundation. When all is said & done...the verdict presented here...as is consistent with scripture...reveals a foundation which is weak & erroneous ...lacking in sound doctrine & theological accuracy.

Many PDL readers believe Warren's seeker sensitive approach is harmless...inspired only by a sincerity to bring the lost into the church & see God's kingdom increased...& from the all outward appearances...that may seem to be the case. However after reading "Redefining Christianity' a sincere, genuine God seeking seeker will be hard pressed to come to that conclusion when presented with the overwhelming & abundant evidence that undoubtedly proves otherwise. The author exalts scripture over public opinion & reminds the reader to examine any Christian leader's doctrine over popularity.

Chapter 10 certainly offers the `slam dunk' on the matter & ever so graciously points us back to Christ as the leader of the church, church movements or reformations...& there again Mr. DeWaay skillfully lays out the earmarks from scripture of a healthy church.

If one is genuinely looking to gain a beneath the surface look into the heart of the PDL beliefs & even more importantly...whether those beliefs are biblically based...Mr. DeWaay's book will get you there from start to finish. This book has drawn a bold line in the sand...creating a well pronounced division between `easy believism' & the `hard to believe' stance. If you're searching for definitive answers...you won't be disappointed.

Above all else, what is most notable about this book is that it's penned by the heart of a true shepherd, who obviously cares deeply for the spiritual well being of God's sheep." (More reviews of the book may be seen on Amazon's website).

Bob DeWaay has also made available more than 15 Radio Broadcasts exposing the myths and lies of R.W.
Those may be found at the following link:
http://cicministry.org/radio_series.php?series=redefining

If an individual has not done any research himself into the false teachings of R.W.,why does the individual expect others to. And then at the same time cast doubt upon those who have. The body ministers to,edifies,and protects itself, as all living organisms do. Glory be His Name!

One other who has done extensive research and labored to come to the knowledge of the truth re: R.W. and others like him,so that he might serve Christ's body and that they might be on guard,is Eric Barger. He founded Take A Stand! Ministries and has many resources available on his site.
Two such resources are DVD seminars on,
1) The Errors of the Emergent Church(R.W. is named and quoted in this seminar along with many other deceivers),and 2)The Death of Discernment - How The Shack Became the #1 Bestseller in Christianity.

Below are links to get those DVD's.

http://www.ericbarger.com/tasstore/info.pgs/emergent.info.htm

http://www.ericbarger.com/tasstore/info.pgs/discernment.info.htm

"Ignorance is the mother of error".

So let us not be ignorant as some would have us, "Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices(2 Cor. 2:11).

But let us rather be exhorted to, "walk as children of light; (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, and righteousness, and truth;) Proving what is acceptable to the Lord. And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret. But all things that are reproved, are made manifest by the light: for whatever doth make manifest is light. Wherefore he saith, Awake, thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ will give thee light.
See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise, Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.
Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is(Eph. 5:8b-17).

Thanks be to God...as His Spirit speaks to His children regarding all these things.

Amen.

Sadly this thread just keeps getting bigger and bigger, it seems to have no end. I am curious as to how many other "Rick Warren" threads there are that have been that simply start and end in blantant accusations not only of the individual talked about but of also the Brothers and Sisters that post on the thread. I am neither for nor against Mr.Warren, but I do ask for peace and unity to be restored in this matter, and if there is going to be converstaion to the very least leave the name calling and accusations out.

God is full of Grace, but He is also full of Justice, If Mr.Warren is in the wrong Christ in His Justice will have His Vengence, its not the job of the Saints of Christ to pull out their claws for the sake of "Justice" and tear someone to bits with their tongues. It is the job of the Saints yes to uphold the Truth but we are to also be intercessors for the Lost and those that stray from the Gospel, We are to be quick to interceed and slow to give our opninions of a Man who professes to be a brother in Christ.

Lets not forget that Christ has dealt with us all graciously and mercifully, and we are to act likewise to our brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus.

My request from my previous post:

Can someone:

1. List those specific allegations.

2. Provide specific citations from his books/words/sermons upon which the allegation is based upon.

3. Please indicate where YOU gathered or accessed the allegation/information/evidence (so that we can verify if this was done from personally testing/proving Rick Warren's statements -- or if this is repeating allegations made by someone else).

One well researched book is, "Redefining Christianity". Bob DeWaay has also made available more than 15 Radio Broadcasts exposing the myths and lies of R.W.
Those may be found at the following link:
http://cicministry.org/radio_series.php?series=redefining

If an individual has not done any research himself into the false teachings of R.W.,why does the individual expect others to. And then at the same time cast doubt upon those who have. The body ministers to,edifies,and protects itself, as all living organisms do. Glory be His Name!

One other who has done extensive research and labored to come to the knowledge of the truth re: R.W. and others like him,so that he might serve Christ's body and that they might be on guard,is Eric Barger. He founded Take A Stand! Ministries and has many resources available on his site.
Two such resources are DVD seminars on,
1) The Errors of the Emergent Church(R.W. is named and quoted in this seminar along with many other deceivers),and 2)The Death of Discernment - How The Shack Became the #1 Bestseller in Christianity.

Below are links to get those DVD's.

http://www.ericbarger.com/tasstore/info.pgs/emergent.info.htm

http://www.ericbarger.com/tasstore/info.pgs/discernment.info.htm

"Ignorance is the mother of error".

So let us not be ignorant as some would have us, "Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices(2 Cor. 2:11).

But let us rather be exhorted to, "walk as children of light; (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, and righteousness, and truth;) Proving what is acceptable to the Lord. And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret. But all things that are reproved, are made manifest by the light: for whatever doth make manifest is light. Wherefore he saith, Awake, thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ will give thee light.
See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise, Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.
Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is(Eph. 5:8b-17).

Thanks be to God...as His Spirit speaks to His children regarding all these things.

Amen.

I take it from this post that you were answering request #3 -- because it seems that you are saying that you gathered such allegations, information and evidence from the secondhand sources that you listed in the body of your post...which was NOT from your having personally reviewed Rick Warren's books, sermons or material. If that is correct, please let me know.

Still, I am interested in responses to the first two requests. These are very broad and drastic judgments levied against this man. It would be helpful to review each SPECIFIC allegation -- and the citations from which it was gathered -- in order to understand how such a judgment was reached.

I certainly would not want to be guilty of pronouncing eternal judgment upon a person simply by reading someone else's allegations and the evidence that they claim to have gathered. I am just interested in the specific allegations that are levied against him, the firsthand evidence upon which those allegations are based, and whether those allegations were entirely your own or reflect the views of a third person. Then, I can research those allegations to see if they are factually correct by researching Warren's own words, contacting him for clarity (if necessary) and possibly making an attempt to gently restore him if he is in the wrong.

Thanks,
-Chris
II Timothy 2:15
I Thessalonians 5:21
Galatians 6:1

Hi Alive-to-God...

Hi Chris,

Surely, 'test everything', means to compare it to scripture? How would contacting a liar, and finding that he claims to adhere to the word of God, count as a 'test'?

The only thing it has tested is whether he has a good memory.

First of all, we haven't made a conclusion that he is a "liar" -- at least, in regard to the specific allegations that no one has specifically laid out. Of course, "all men are liars" (at least, in haste (Psalm 116:11).

Secondly, we have nothing to compare. No one has actually laid out the specific allegations. I just keep hearing the conclusion, verdict, judgment or whatever everyone wants to call it. No one has laid out the specific allegations, the first hand sources from which they were gathered, and stated whether these were gathered from personal discovery or attained from other websites that are critical of the man.

It isn't enough to present conclusions. If we are to utter such things, then it is important that the specific allegations are presented (clearly) and with citations to the actual place that we can find the statements in question. I think that it is important to also know WHERE the allegations were first uncovered -- so that we would know whether there is any repetition of claims that might be based upon something other than the evidence.

As I stated before, I am not a fan of Rick Warren. I just don't know enough about the man. I am concerned however with the amount of rhetoric that is directed at him that appears to be "reading between the lines" or based upon less-than-credible secondhand evidence. In my limited research of accusatory websites, I have seen quite a bit of conclusions presented in regard to Rick Warren...but very little real evidence to substantiate those conclusions.

In addition, I have also noticed animosity directed at those who will not immediately accept such a judgment or allegations at face value. If someone wants to tell me that Rick Warren (or any other person) is a "false prophet," a "heretic," or a "devil" (I have seen those specific words), then they need to honestly present the evidence upon which they base their claims. If they can't, then they probably need to remain quiet until they can at least substantiate their accusations with firsthand sources.

For example: There are some questionable preachers who have been discussed here at SermonIndex. I don't accept much of what Benny Hinn teaches. However, this came after a personal examination of Hinn's own words. In past discussions, I (and others) have even pointed out those concerns with SPECIFIC statements and citations in the past. There were even links to Benny Hinn's own books, letters, website, sermons and YouTube videos that showed Benny Hinn explicitly making those statements. These were firsthand sources.

For some reason, I haven't seen the same level of specific scrutiny with Rick Warren. I have seen conclusions and judgments, with little-to-no specific evidence upon how that conclusion was ascertained. In one case, someone uttered some specific words, and I attempted to verify them. It turned out that the "quote" was not accurate. In another case, someone claimed that Rick Warren had a goal to create a "one world religion." Again, no specific evidence substantiated this, and Rick Warren's ministry representative explained that this was grossly untrue.

If we are going to entertain such accusations, we need to separate the mud from the water in order to determine was is true and what is untrue. We should not be so bold as to make a accusatory statement and then expect others to simply accept it without presenting any concrete evidence. Does that make sense?

Hi Alive-to-God...

Still, the burden of proof lay with the accuser.

There are plenty of judgments about the man (Rick Warren) flying around. In fact, most of the accusers are attempting to convince us of this man's evil. Yet, we just don't have much "evidence" upon which we can make an actual conclusion.

One person once told me (about such allegations) that we have the "Spirit of Truth" by which we can judge individuals (suggesting that facts aren't necessary before we go about publicly assassinating the character of a person). This is a silly statement -- because it relies upon "faith" in the person making the public accusation rather than upon facts or the clarity of our own relationship with God. It doesn't allow others to make up their mind -- because the constant public repetition of such conclusions are based on someone else's ability to hear and repeat the voice of God. Moreover, any believer can claim the same thing about anyone that they get what they perceive to be a "spiritual impression" about another person.

Here, we have a man of which many accusations are levied. Yet few facts have been presented by which we substantiate the accusation. If people want to say that the "Spirit of God" led them to a conclusion sans evidence, then so be it. I think that it would be silly to make bold public claims about a man with no evidence by which to substantiate those claims. Ultimately, we wouldn't know WHO is the liar -- the accused or the accuser.

So, with regard to Rick Warren, do you believe that he (or anyone), can hold an advisory role to an organisation which is bent on accommodating all religions (as its main aim, as he does), without compromising his call to the ministry to make disciples of all men?

Again, you are raising an allegation WITHOUT any evidence upon which we can inspect the truthfulness of the allegation. Which organization are you talking about? Where did you see this goal or mission about "accommodating all religions as its main aim?" What evidence did you examine to substantiate this claim? Where did you first hear about this claim?

It is difficult to make any assessment of this man or situation when so many rumors are spread without specific accusations or allegations or the evidence upon which those accusations is based.

Does that make any sense?

I am not saying that Rick Warren is guilty or innocent of such specific conclusions or accusations. I just haven't seen any of the evidence to verify, test or prove those claims. The burden of proof obviously falls to the accuser rather than the accused.

It would be helpful to see:

1. The specific accusations.
2. The firsthand evidence upon which these accusations are based.
3. Where these accusations were first learned? Was the evidence gathered from firsthand sources or from examining secondhand sources?

Given the gravity of such accusations, we owe it to the purity of God to get such things correct. If we don't have any specific allegations or evidence to go by, why should we believe the accuser?

I have mixed feelings about this thread.

On the one hand, false teachings must be exposed, or at the very least, set aside; on the other hand, we must not slander one another.

Let me ask these questions: Has any of you ever misinterpreted the Bible? How bad was it? How would you want someone to deal with you in order to correct you? Would you want that person to tell everyone what a corrupt teacher you are, or would you want that person to deal with you graciously, by patiently admonishing you in private?

It is easy to accuse Rick Warren, saying that he has compromised the Gospel with humanism (http://www.libertyadvocate.com/message28.htm). It is also easy to accuse David Wilkerson of having told false prophecies (http://www.escapeallthesethings.com/david-wilkerson-prophecy.htm). Again, it is easy to accuse Chuck Smith of having wrongly predicted that the rapture would happen in 1981 (http://calvarychapel.pbworks.com/1981). The list goes on and on…

What are we left with? Not much. Everyone makes mistakes; yes, even Leonard Ravenhill and Paul Washer, two of my favorite preachers. I will be the first to admit having made many errors in Bible interpretation. I am glad for the graciousness of people who have disagreed with me, whether their reproofs were well founded or not.

Where do we draw the line, then? Are we the ones to draw the line? I challenge you to do a survey of the New Testament in order to find the instances where false teachers are rebuked and when the testing of the spirits comes into play. Ultimately, the Gospel stands out particularly; namely, the person and the work of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. Now, the question remains, what types of perversions of the Gospel are condemned in Scripture? I trust that as you read the Scriptures, you will begin to discern a pattern.

Humbly your servant

Hi NotMe...

Savannah provided some good sources on Warren. But either way if Chris doesn't have Warren's book to see whether the quotes are truly from it, then Chris has a problem. Maybe we should fundraise to get Chris a copy of The Purpose-Driven Life...

I'm not sure if this is supposed to be funny, sarcastic or just mean-spirited. I didn't ridicule you or your perspective. I ask that you don't do the same to others -- even if you disagree with what they write.

To be clear: Savannah didn't list any specific allegations. Moreover, Savannah didn't provide any firsthand citations of Rick Warren's books, sermons, or literature upon which specific claims are based (unless I missed them). From what I saw, it was just the same anti-Warren articles. No formal allegations or accusations are made. This is just the same, tired "Rick Warren is bad" rhetoric without explicit examples of WHAT HE SAID, WHERE HE SAID IT, and WHERE IT WAS GATHERED.

For those who are insterested in the person of Rick Warren, here is a good article by Bob DeWaay (the author of the first book Savannah recommended), with plenty of quotes and first-hand evidence (not rumors):

http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue80.htm

Also, here you could find a free online copy of Warren's "What On Earth Am I Here For?" booklet (which comprises the first seven chapters of the Purpose-Driven Life):

http://docs.purposedriven.org:8088/docs/pdl/samplechapters/woeaihf.pdf

The butchering/watering down/twisting of Scripture by Warren is grotesque. I remember reading his book, The Purpose Driven Life, in 2003 and 2004, while still in my sins. There was no requirement, no mention of repentance. Only a year later was I confronted with the Gospel. A year of reading Warren was not enough to impress upon me the necessity of repentance. Because the guy preaches a man-centered, seeker-friendly gospel, where God offers freely his love and forgiveness to all mankind (page 29 of the booklet).

Would you care to be specific? Are you saying that this guy NEVER preaches repentance? So, I take it that you have heard everything this man has preached and read everything that this man has written over the last ten years? That is quite a blanket accusation...and it is probably impossible to validate either way.

Since I am not very familiar with Rick Warren, it would help to understand such things only if those who accuse would provide specific accusations and the evidence upon which those claims are based. I am not called to believe accusations without evidence any more than I would be called to believe the man in question.

It is amazing that it took me a very short period of time in the beginning of my Christian walk to test and prove that Warren was a false teacher and move on, while people like Chris, who have been on these forums for years, have not yet found enough evidence to confirm the acccusations of Warren. God's Word is immutable though: "He who seeks shall find"; he who hasn't found, hasn't been seeking.

The passage that you quoted is from Matthew chapter 7. No where in the context of that passage are we called to seek out "evil" about a person. We are called to seek God. We aren't suppose to waste our time seeking out a whole lot of rumors.

People are voicing repetitious conclusions about Rick Warren. Yet I see very few (if any) specific allegations. Since we can't consider specific allegations, how do we verify whether there is truth behind the conclusion.

I am NOT supporting Rick Warren. I don't think that this could be any more clear. I am just saying that if a person is bold enough to loudly and publicly proclaim that this man is a "false teacher" or "an appostate" (or something like that) -- then that person needs to provide the evidence to substantiate the claim. A link to an anti-Rick Warren book or website is NOT evidence. It isn't even a specific allegation. It is just someone else's opinion.

So, if you think Rick Warren is this devil...then tell us why. Please be specific with the allegation or accusation. Then please be specific with the evidence to validate the accusation.

I believe a lot has been said/written on Rick Warren in these 7-8 years of SermonIndex. Unfortunately the search engines of the website are not working, which makes it very difficult to find something this old in the archives. Either way, God honors seeking the truth diligently and will grant his children peace and assurance in that truth.

It is shameful though that for many people "Rick Warren being a false teacher" is a stumbling block. It just doesn't resonate with their "don't judge", "God is love" evangelical mentality, which has become the norm around American churches. For so many years they haven't moved even into the basics of God's Word, in spite of all the biblical sermons! And God's requirement and purpose for the church in these last days is much greater and much more complex than being able to stand against the Rick Warren deception (which is quite simple, straightforward and shallow).

Again, I think that you are misunderstanding the point that many of us are making. We are NOT saying that Rick Warren is a good man, a true believer, a Biblical teacher, a prophet, or anything like that. We are just saying BACK IT UP. If you are going to make such a bold public claim, then, at least, BACK IT UP. Personally, I am just saying that a person who pronounces an accusatory judgment should at least provide the specific accusations and evidence when they make such a defining claim.

Otherwise, it might be "shameful" for a person to rely solely upon the accusations of someone else without testing and verifying those words or sources.

Even the accusation of nearthecross...

Not just with Warren but with other heretics that openly embrace perfectionism, Pelagianism, Moral Government theology, and Open Theism.

The burden of proof in such accusations is not a simple "Go seek and find it yourself." If you are going to be so bold as to proclaim damnation upon a person, then you owe it to the rest of us to get it right -- and prove your claim. In most of the Rick Warren threads, there has been a lot of conclusions presented ("false teacher," "wolf in sheep's clothing," "false prophet," "wants to create a one world religion," etc...), yet there has been so little evidence from the man's writings and sermons to validate such damning public conclusions.

Again, no one is defending Rick Warren. I don't know a whole lot about the guy. Yet I have read plenty of verdicts on his character and eternal condition. He could be a wolf. He could be a liar. He could very well be purposely leading people to Hell. He could also be misled. He could also be misunderstood. He could be misunderstanding certain aspects of the faith. However, where is the evidence?

Is he a false teacher? Why? Please provide specific evidence from his books, writings, teachings, or sermons.

Is he a wolf? Why? Please provide specific evidence from his books, writings, teachings, or sermons.

Is he trying to create a one-world religion? How do you know? Please provide specific evidence from his books, writings, teachings, or sermons.

Is this too much to ask? After all, we aren't the ones accusing this man or pronouncing eternal damnation upon him.

Finally, my biggest concern isn't just with what the man may preach. It is also with what the man might leave out. Does he ever preach the whole counsel of God? Does he ever preach repentance? Does he ever preach about sin? Does he ever preach the importance of lingering in God's presence? Does he preach the need to be desperate for an intimate relationship with God? Does he ever preach the need to judge all things by God's Word?

I don't know. But, if you are going to proclaim such important things, at least be willing to substantiate your claims with the evidence upon which it is based. What specific things (firsthand evidence) caused you to feel the way that you do?

KingJimmy, 1 big reason why there is hardly any people against David Wilkerson's sermons here compared to Rick Warren is because they believe Wilkerson is a true Christian while they believed Warren is false. If Warren is really false, then its only right that his sermon should not be here.

Acts 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

Amen snuf. I am not sure if all this Rick Warren bashing is healthy.

If Warren is really false, then its only right that his sermon should not be here.

But is he to the point of being called a false prophet?

Does anyone else feel we are beating a dead horse with this thread? Just curious :)

Does anyone else feel we are beating a dead horse with this thread? Just curious :)

*raises her hand*

It was semi-interesting at first..a small degree any how :)

Hi Alive-to-God...

This is not actually the case. There have been plenty of conclusive accusations regarding Rick Warren (such as blanket accusations that he is a false teacher, a false prophet, trying to create a one world religion, etc...) -- but these are lacking specifics and the firsthand evidence upon which such specific accusations should be based. In fact, there have even been "quotations" of Rick Warren that were fictitious and gathered only from other websites that were critical of the man.

If we are going to make such strongly worded public announcements that the man is damned and preaching damnable messages -- then those accusers should at least present the specific statements in question, where they were gathered, and how the firsthand evidence Biblically supports the accusation.

In my experience, there are two ways to work out whether a person is true or not. Either you trust them until you find by (usually bitter) experience they have been lying in some matter, or, if you have the spirit of discernment, you go by what God is showing you regardless of the beguiling nature of their outward motions. Equally, a person's outward motions might attract your concerns, but you discern that their heart is in the right place (as we say) and they are just a 'rough diamond' who'll polish up in time, under God's ministrations. I would say I've moved from being trusting, to being discerning. In other words, I now know the meaning of what I'm hearing and seeing, which before I'd been deceived, I didn't.

What if someone publicly announced, "I don't trust 'Alive-to-God' because God made me to discern that he is a false teacher, false prophet and is leading people to Hell."

What should my reaction be?

Without presenting any specific evidence, why should I believe someone who makes such a claim?

There is also a danger of connecting dots that might not really be connected. In other words, some people are predisposed to declare someone guilty by association.

For instance, if I drove by a bar and saw you outside of it, I shouldn't assume that you are there to drink, get drunk, meet women or play billiards. You could be there preaching the Gospel. You could be there to pick up a loved one who needs help. You could be there because your car broke down and you needed the phone.

Recently, someone accused Rick Warren of wanting to create a one world religion. The only "evidence" that they provided was the fact that he prayed at Barack Obama's inauguration (*where Muslims also prayed) and that he was invited to sit on Tony Blair's Faith Foundation as a Christian representative. The "reading between the lines" comes from first from assuming that Blair's foundation actually wants to create a single religion (which is contrary to their stated goals) AND then assuming that this was a motivation of Rick Warren because he was invited to be a counselor and Christian representative at discussion forums. While it certainly might not have been the best choice for Rick Warren to have participated in this foundation -- it is a stretch to try and "connect the dots" and then publicly proclaim that he wants to create some sort of ecumenical one world religion.

We need to get it right.

If we are going to make a claim about the man, we need to have firsthand evidence that clearly indicates a charge. Otherwise, we are meandering into "rumor," "gossip," "hearsay," and conclusions that are drawn by something other than clearly defined facts (including poorly derived circumstantial evidence or even reading-between-the-lines). The weight of the charges against the man merit the need for substantial evidence. This doesn't mean that the burden of proof falls to those who HEAR the accusation. It also doesn't mean that we should gather our information from the accusations found at other websites. We should have enough fortitude to look this up ourselves if we are willing to entertain and repeat such things.

I hope that this makes a little more sense about what I am trying to say.

[by StarofG0D on 2010/10/8 16:01:58

If Warren is really false, then its only right that his sermon should not be here.

But is he to the point of being called a false prophet?]

StarofGod, I do not know whether he is really false although I think he is more likely false because of my experience. I will share something that I've never shared before.

I've heard of Rick Warren for some time and was cautious of him. Read a fair bit of his book from beginning to end (although I did not read every word) and later was given the book as a present. Up till then, I still was not sure where he is true or false, but felt there were problems in his teaching. Still hoped that he is saved and if not, that he will be saved. I'm always reminded of something he shared in the book ie either his father/father-in-law (can't really remember now) on his deathbed, was so desperate to save 1 more soul for Jesus. I always wondered whether he would be that person--after I got the experience below.

Anyway, not long after I was given the book while lying in bed, very clear words (though not audible) came from my mouth. He is lying (meaning Rick Warren). I was so shocked because in my mind I still was not sure whether he is a true or false Christian although I felt there were errors in his book--after all true Christians do have errors too. While I was still in shock, the next sentence came out. "He is a false prophet". This made me even more shock. These words are something I can never do on my own. One cannot be shocked at something, then while still shocked and digesting the 1st sentence, be even more shocked with the next sentence uttered. I've never had this sort of thing happened to me before or afterwards.

I realize that God does give me at times the ability to tell that someone is a true Christian but it has never been through words. Only once and this is the one, have God (if in fact those words were actually from God and so far I have no reason to doubt it) told me that someone is a false Christian. The thing is it would be slightly easier (though still very hard) for me to believe that somehow it may be my own thoughts if the words were 'false Christian' but to say 'false prophet'--I have never used the word prophet in any conversation up till that point, so its hard to phanthom me even uttering this word, especially as I was still digesting my shock of uttering the 1st sentence of 'he is lying'.

The thing is before all this happen, I ever once listened to 1 of Paul Washer's sermon where he mentioned (something like that as I cannot remember everything now) while he was preaching in a church and the people were rowdy and not listening to him, suddenly words came out from his mouth and I paraphrase (something like that because I cannot remember clearly now) "young people, listen to me, this may be your only chance to listen to the gospel,people are going to come in and you may not have the chance anymore'. Paul Washer was so shocked and dismayed when he uttered the sentence and was saying why did he say that. Anyway, not long later, some people came banging at the church door trying to cause havoc. Finally when they left, the people in the church became quiet and really listened to Paul Washer's sermon. ---I remembered this after (not sure whether its immediately after) the words came out from my mouth with regards to Rick Warren.

I have been debating whether to share this experience ever since I got it for quite some time now. Its very difficult for me to do so because I feel that for all his errors, he is one of the most sincere 'false Christian if he is one' and seems to be trying to follow God. Also, he gives 90% of his earnings away, more generous than many true Christians. Plus my flesh prefer people listen to his sermon/book on that we must do good works instead of some real Christian pastors/people who preaches on easy believism. (Now, I know that good works do not save us and it is not an obligation, rather when we become Christians, we will be transformed and it becomes part of our nature to do good works. Its just that I'm tired of false Christians and even some true one who keep denying that we will produce good works.)

Finally, I am just an anonymous poster in this forum sharing his/her experience. All I know is I'm still rather reluctant to say yes or no with regards to him being saved although I will never recommend any book/sermon by him. How can I after that experience? I tend to lean more towards him not being saved although its with a very heavy heart and pray that he will be saved.

Edit to add:
The thing is I nearly typed my experience when replying to Jimmy but felt it was 'not yet'. Then later, I found you have asked the question and of all things 'ask whether is a false PROPHET"--the 2nd sentence that was uttered from my mouth (my experience). That's when I felt that I need to share my experience. I've kept it bottled all this while

NotMe...

There is plenty of evidence in the article I posted and in Warren's booklet. If you refuse to consider it, this is your problem, Chris. I don't intend to waste my time with you, nor draw more attention to your person than you deserve. You have made every effort in these forums to SHUT DOWN (rather successfully) any edifying conversation and to distort all truth. Your bad fruit are evident. I am not writing this for your sake, but for the sake of the others who are reading this. There is nothing that will make you convinced--no amount of evidence--because you seek to distort reality and try to downplay any argument that doesn't line up with your own subversive agenda. Again, the fruit are evident, regardless of whether you are doing this wittingly or not. It is a shame that the moderators have allowed you to write some 3000 posts here, but this speaks of their discernment. After all, they can do what they want and welcome whomever they want in the forums.

You need to repent of your lies, distortion, and spiritual pride!

Don't come in here and lecture me of bearing bad fruit simply because I am unwilling to damn a man to hell simply because you say so.

If you want to publicly damn the man -- then you are accountable for what you say.

Yet, you have repeatedly damned me, ridiculed me, and spewed all sorts of filth, ridicule and scorn simply because I don't quickly adhere to your specific views. Do you think that this is wise? Is this what God has called you to do?

You have asked a lot of questions, which disgust me, because you don't seek to know, but you want to present things as if they aren't certain, as if there is no evidence. If you were a seeker of the truth, you would have some truth in you, but I see none (and I am not to trust in myself and my own judgment, but in the Word of God, which is a witness against you, also confirmed by a remnant of faithful brethren here and there who cannot stand your spirit). I have said it before, if you had any sincerity in you, you wouldn't handle facts and truth in a brutal manner. I am writing this more for the brethren here, for I have no hope that you will listen.

You have NOT presented the truth. You have presented an accusation that is unsubstantiated. You have damned a man to Hell...claimed that he is a false prophet...and then failed to present any sort of specific evidence to substantiate any sort of specific claim.

But, of course, this is how you have publicly treated me here at SermonIndex on more than one occasion. If I don't listen to the "truth" as YOU see it or claim it, then I must be a "reprobate" (or worse). Do you see how wrong that this is?

Now you expect Warren to say, "I am an anti-Christ. I am a peddler of one-world religion." Will this convince you? But surely Warren is smart enough not to say this in public, for it'll thwart his whole agenda. That is why Christians must be smarter to discern the man's words and actions.

No, I don't expect this either. However, you have NOT presented anything but a mere conclusion. You have presented a judgment. You have NOT presented anything that would substantiate your judgment -- other than more judgment and accusations. If he is a false prophet -- SHOW ME! Take me to the exact statement...in context...in one of HIS books or sermons! If you can't do this, then you need to refrain from making accusations without proof.

I have said repeatedly that I am NOT defending Rick Warren. I am simply pointing out that I hear so many accusations that the man is damnable -- but so little specific accusations or specific evidence.

But the thread is about Rick Warren. Let's not make it about you, Chris. One thing I must admit is that you are so "good" at making even the simplest and most straightforward of matters "seem" dubious and uncertain, but this is nothing to boast about before God, to whom all is plain and naked.

This is not about me...even though you have attempted to make it so. There is NOTHING DUBIOUS about asking someone to back up their accusations with some sort of proof. If you want to call Rick Warren a "false prophet" -- then show us. Show us where he false prophesied. Show us his statement. Show us where you found it. Show us how this is any different than anything that you have done here when you were wrong on a doctrinal issue. If you can't present evidence, then why make the public declaration about the condition of his heart?

My advise to you, Chris, is to take a break for a while, so you don't provoke the Lord to great anger. For He has been very patient with you, using you here to sift his people, but I don't know may befall you when your purpose is complete and you have to answer before the Lord for every idle and deceptive word you have spoken?

Thankfully, you are NOT God. You have no say in his "great anger" -- because I have a feeling that you would have shot plenty of arrows at me already. I don't know, but it seems like you think that you may have done God a favor. However, you are not in charge of SermonIndex. You are not in charge of me. You are not in charge of the Church. Ultimately, that responsibility remains with our Lord. Each of us will give account to Him. If you want to spew your judgment ahead of the Lord, then you will have to give an account for it -- just as we will.

Regardless, I am not going to base my conclusion (about Rick Warren or any other matter) upon what you say. If you can't substantiate your blanket judgment of Rick Warren (or anyone else) with any sort of specific evidence, then I should not take it as anything other than your own opinion -- and nothing more.

Thank you for sharing this learn. I actually read the entire Purpose Driven Life book.
My aunt had given it to me. And I was just absolutely thrilled that she had given me such a book. I didn't know ANY of my blood family/relatives had any desire to seek the Lord at all in a real way. Which later opened up other doors to talk with her. However, I still think she's watered down. :p But if I have any relatives that are born again, she'd be it, I think. So Praise the Lord.

No I did not agree with all of the book. Thought it watered down and lukewarm to put it bluntly. But surely would not have called him a false prophet at the time. However, I have not kept up with it now. That was several years ago.

I have heard that same message by Paul Washer.

NotMe...

You have not presented specific allegations. You have not presented specific evidence. All you have done is proclaim that the man is a false teacher.

As for your inclination about me: If you think that I have any other motive in this other than to see the specific allegations and the specific evidence upon which it is based, then I can see why you are prone to such poor judgment. This is not wise.

I am not defending Warren. I don't listen to him. I have never heard him preach a sermon. I have never owned or read any of his books. The only time I have ever read any passage that Warren has written was while trying to ascertain the truth regarding certain allegations.

By the way, it is better to be "neutral" than to arrive to a conclusion without evidence. Make sense?

Very true, Rev.

"He who slings mud loses ground."

When will the madness stop? That is my only question!

Hi everyone,

"The major problem here is that Rick Warren refuses to engage his critics or defend his ideas. Unless he is willing to argue for, say, his handling of Scripture, there can be no development of the critics’ understanding of his position.

This is not the fault of the critics, who have shown themselves to be very willing to engage; but rather of Warren, who refuses to enter into the conversation.

If he is misunderstood, let him answer his critics...'

I believe this is one of the most reasonable attitudes within the whole of the controversy regarding this man.

Perosonal vilification of public figures should be avoided at all costs. It is a great breach of spirit and a deadly sin.

But those that inisist that teacher's and preacher's words and messages should be tested(especially when they figure so prominently as this man does) are excercising good sense to do so and do show a healthy regard for truth and soundness that becomes the Gospel and its LORD.

And this qoute above I think is especially reasonable, because of the pattern of the LORD Himself, Who, nearly as often as He was challenged by His critics, answered them, and in so doing not only proved the soundness of His speech but also gave us so many remarkable revelations of truth.

Being challenged by men as to the soundness of our words is not(generally) a time for silence.

It is THE OPPORTUNITY to shine.

That is, if we and our message, have come from God.

Snufalapagus, any false pastor's sermons should never be on a Christian website. I don't think that people would disagree on this.

The debate is whether one believes the person is a true Christian or not. The decision whether to put up in this case Warren's sermon is certainly up to Greg (as he is the admin here).

I believe you are creating an arguement out of nothing. Notice that my sentence did not mention my opinion/belief. I just said 'if' and I didn't say that 'he is' or that 'because I believe, then it has to be done...'.

Pls do not read into things where there is nothing in it. Thanks.

Double edit as it may not be clear.
Edit to add: ok, on re-reading this, I can see why you thought what you've written. But no, I wasn't thinking of that. I am just stating that any false pastors sermons should not be on a Christian website. (in this case since we are talking about Warren, I mentioned his name--but notice I said 'if' and not that he is). That's all. Not saying that person is false or not or that we have a right to decide which sermon will be put up. I've been in forums long enough to know that the decision is ultimately up to the admin.

--nevermind

Alright brothers, let's calm down... These posts on either side are not at all edifying, and i think that if an unbeliever or young soul would look into this thread and see the kind of words being used, they would really be turned off, and wonder if this is true Christianity at work, or just angry people.

I know we're zealous for truth, but we can't hurt eachother like this for the sake of the truth.

NotMe, Chris, and others, if you want to discuss your thoughts about each other, please do it in personal messages, not on a forum; it's not redemptive nor encouraging to others who are looking on.

For the sake of others, please leave off these things. If you have concerns about one another, please address that one in private, not openly.

Let's crown Jesus Lord of all, brothers.

If you find your blood boil as you read comments from others, it means it's time to give it a rest, even if it means you'll look like you've given up or lost the argument.

God bless.

Snufalapagus, to summarise my view and explanation--to avoid any possible confusion (if any).

You have your view, so have I. I think we are on opposing camps as I tend to believe that Warren is false base on my experience (although its hard seeing his generosity etc). You are likely to disagree with my view--that's fine. And you ain't gonna sway me with regards to Greg's discernment on this matter etc, so let's leave it as it is, ok. :)

Also, to reiterate,putting up whose sermon is ultimately Greg's decision. I or others may believe he is false but we cannot force Greg, although some may try to plead, convince etc. On the same breath, all false pastors sermons should not be on a Christian website (this I think we all agree on--for example, I think very few people will think Joel Osteen's sermon should be here).

Peace.

I'm waiting for Greg's hammer to fall on this monster of forum iniquity...

:D

the answer to whether or not ANYone's sermon should be here:

this site is for promoting Biblical Revival. So what is Biblical Revival?

1.) Re-awakening
\t-to a consciousness of a Thrice Holy God
\t-a thirst for God
\t
2.) Renewal
\t-of the Covenant with God
\t-of service to God
\t-of Godly living

3.) Regeneration
\t-a modern day Re-Birth
\t-become as innocent and pure as day of birth
\t-return to the “Joy of your Salvation”

4.) Restoration
\t-of Godly principles
\t-of Righteousness

Now, has anyone listened to this sermon by warren? I admit, I have not and probably won't. I will be corrected if anyone has anything to say otherwise but I believe that his sermon would be nothing more than principles and good morals and things to be busy with. That's not my idea of New Covenant theology. We got cats up in here giving old testament answers to New Testament subjects.

Please see if his sermon is in line with SI and then determine the fruits.

It really grieves me that threads like these have become the meat of forum activity. That we can beat a dead horse like this for so long speaks volumes of our spirituality.

Thread and topic terminated.

Hi NotMe...

Just a quick response to another of your allegations before I bow out of this thread.

Oh, Chris! Don't you worry about me. If it were me you had a problem with, you will be fine. But you have a problem with God's Word which testifies against you. Don't tremble at me; tremble at His Word.

Brother, I really don't worry about your comments at all. I know who I am in Christ Jesus. Speaking personally, I am not worried about your opinions. I do have some concern with your attempt to assassinate anyone who disagrees with what you think God has shown you. You speak of "discernment" -- yet you can't seem to "discern" how you have wronged several people here. You have wronged Neil here. You have wronged Greg here. You have hurled many insulting and scornful arrows at many brothers -- and you seem to react as if this is a noble effort and that you're doing God a favor.

The concern that I feel is that you do this in a public forum simply because of a difference of opinion about Greg including a single sermon by this preacher in the SI collection. Greg didn't force you (or anyone else) to listen to it. Greg didn't tell anyone to adhere to everything that Rick Warren teaches. You can certainly continue to believe as you do about Rick Warren with a clean conscience. However, when you spew scorn and ridicule simply because some haven't seen you present specific evidence regarding the man -- well, this is taking it much too far.

There is plenty of SPECIFIC EVIDENCE in the article I posted. It doesn't get more specific and more thorough than this. He who has ears, let him hear.

Really? Where is it? I must have missed it. I have seen blanket allegations and links to websites that contain accusations. But where are the SPECIFIC accusations coupled with SPECIFIC sources upon which those accusations are based? Consider this example:

Accusation: "Benny Hinn is a false prophet. Why? He has 'prophesied' several specific events -- claiming that this came from God -- that never came to pass."

On December 31, 1989, Benny Hinn claimed that Fidel Castro would die during the 1990s and a 'great revival' would occur throughout Cuba. During that same service, Hinn claimed that God was going to destroy the homosexual community in America with fire by 1994 or 1995. He gave many other false prophecies during that meeting.

Citation:
Live video recording of Benny Hinn's 1989 claims:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTtw_PeHZw8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZf7XiSmz-0

Now, consider this accusation:

Accusation: Rick Warren is a false teacher who wants to create a one world religion!

Rick Warren spoke at Tony Blair's Faith Foundation. This foundation is trying to create a one world religion that joins Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus and everyone else under one single religion.

Citation:
http://www.understandthetimes.org/inthenews/194_owr.shtml

Do you see how the first example of an allegation (concerning Benny Hinn), the accusation, evidence and citation are clear cut and do not require any sort of interpretation of the results? With the cited source (in this example, a video), we can either validate or reject the allegation and explanation of evidence.

In the second example of an allegation (concerning Rick Warren), the accusation is presented in a blanket statement that presents statements that must be selectively interpreted, and the "evidence" is a citation to another website that echoes the same allegation that also requires "connecting the dots" via selective interpretation.

Do you see the difference? In most of the allegations that have been brought out regarding Rick Warren, this is what I have seen. Some people have quoted passages from his books, but even some of those passages are interpreted by the accuser to mean something that I just don't see sometimes. This is not "blindness." This is just refusing to be forced to believe something that just isn't explicitly clear via facts or Scripture.

May God have mercy on you...