I know this is controversial topic but I would like to know what anyone else thinks on this topic. Personally I think men should have beards. According:
Lev 19:27: You shall not round off the corner of your head, and you shall not destroy the edge of your beard.
Any other scriptures that confirm or change this?
"Any other scriptures that confirm or change this?"
yep........
"Yet because of false brothers secretly brought in—who slipped in to spy out our freedom that we have in Christ Jesus , so that they might bring us into slavery—"
Galatians 2:4
Paul continues
"But when I saw that their conduct was not in step with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all, "If you, though a Jew , live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you force the Gentiles to live like Jews?"
We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified."
Galatians 2:14-16
amen an amen. wanna grow a beard? perfectly fine.
wanna hit the ole Barbasol an a razor?
its fine with Messiah Jesus.
This was a requirement of the old covenant, the law. Paul and the writer of Hebrews are very plain about how we should treat the carnal ordinances of the old covenant. (I say carnal in that it was up to us to keep them in our flesh. This was the weakness of the law. See Rom. 7)
Col 2:14-17
(14) Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
(15) And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
(16) Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
(17) Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
The ordinances of the law, be it the ten commandments (2 Cor. 3:7) or the other various ordinances (Col. 2:14-18) were only shadows of that which is to come. If you really study Romans, Galatians, and Hebrews we find plainly stated in no uncertain terms that we are no longer bound by the old covenant to keep the laws and ordinances of that covenant.
So, if you accept that you must not shave your beard, then you must also accept that you must keep ALL of the ordinances of the law. Did you offer sacrifices at the last new moon? Are you wearing clothing that is a blend of fabrics? Do you eat of anything unclean? Did you perform the required purification rituals the last time you attended a funeral or disposed of your dead goldfish? Are you keeping the true sabbath day? Are you keeping all of the sabbath feasts and festivals? Did you let your land lay fallow the seventh year? James 2:10.
I have only worn a beard once in my life. It was so itchy and irritating that I wonder why anyone would want to wear that ball of hair around on his face continually. :-)
I think that hair on your face is not at all relevant to salvation or to relationship with God. God is pleased with you through your faith in what Jesus did, hair or no hair.
Edit: By the way, no controversy here. If you want to have a beard, go for it. But if the beard is grown in an effort to please God by keeping law, Paul says you are bewitched and have believed a lie. He says to return to law from grace is to fall from grace. I guess it all has to do with your motivation. According to Paul in Colossians, if you desire to wear a beard (or keep feasts and sabbaths) simply out of your own will to worship God, then that is great. Under the new covenant, if I think keeping the law is my way to relationship with God, I am into legalism and am not in grace. If I want to keep a law simply because I love God and desire to separate myself in some way, that is fine and I should not let anyone condemn me for this voluntary act of will worship.
Only if you're Amish!!
If you want to obey that command as a personal thing for yourself, by all means. But if you push it upon others, your treading on areas that provoke God to anger.
Thanks.
I still think men should have beards. It makes them look manly.
It is true that Leviticus is part of the law. I still wonder what the reason behind this law was though.
Pagan's of the time had shaved faces and so to sperate God's peope from the Pagan world it was set up as a social law. Or at least that is what I was told when I asked this question :)
Gee whisakers, that is okay for some. I tried growing the thing, it's just too itchy. A goatee is better, or a moustache. To each his own.I still think men should have beards. It makes them look manly.
As for reasons why it was included in the law, beats me.
If you are growing a beard as a form of righteousness or keeping the law then you are in plain error. The gospel sets us free from the mosiac laws requirements. But it is not bad to see some good principles from the law and obey them by the Spirit.
As for the beard it makes more sense to grow it then to shave it. Less work in some ways. Also its more natural and the way men of old lived.
But it has no value biblically for a new testament Christian and do not fall into that error.
I'm sorry. I dont use that scripture and force it on people. I just showed it, to show why i have a beard.
I dont have a beard to follow the law, but because the law said people should have beards i believe that there is a purpose for a man having a beard but not because it would be a sin not to have one.
Hope that makes sense.
If you are growing a beard as a form of righteousness or keeping the law then you are in plain error. The gospel sets us free from the mosiac laws requirements. But it is not bad to see some good principles from the law and obey them by the Spirit. As for the beard it makes more sense to grow it then to shave it. Less work in some ways. Also its more natural and the way men of old lived.
Thanks. This is what i was trying to say.
We don't have to obey the Mosaic Law.
"For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law." (Heb 7:12)
I don't think men should resist the growth of their beards by shaving.
"male and female created he them." (Gen 1:27)
I still wonder what the reason behind this law was though.
Here are some scriptures for you to read in context and study.
Gal 3:19-25
(19) Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
(20) Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
(21) Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
(22) But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
(23) But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
(24) Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
(25) But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Rom 7:7-13
(7) What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
(8) But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
(9) For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
(10) And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
(11) For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
(12) Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
(13) Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Rom 3:19-23
(19) Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
(20) Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
(21) But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
(22) Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
(23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Really, all of Romans, Galatians, and Hebrews deal with the law and grace. I suggest also spending some time in Hebrews 9 and 10.
As for the beard it makes more sense to grow it then to shave it. Less work in some ways. Also its more natural and the way men of old lived.
To each his own I guess. Also makes more sense to bathe once a week. Less water usage and less work. But the stench???? :-) Actually, I could never have been Amish. I grow a very poor beard.
I think you understand me wrong.
I dont have a beard to follow the law, but because the law said people should have beards i believe that there is a purpose for a man having a beard but not because it would be a sin not to have one.
Then it sounds to me like you have a proper perspective on things. I am not sure why the beard was part of the law either.
Reminds me of a joke. Punch line...Once shaved, always shaved. :-)
Beards originally come from God.
Little girls don't have beards.
Women don't have beards.
Little boys don't have beards.
Grown (post-pubescent) men have beards.
Some women are exceptions to God's general design and have more facial hair than average. Some men are exceptions to God's general design and have less facial hair than average.
It seems like beard shaving came from ungodly idolaters.
Beard shaving makes you look more like a boy or a woman if you remove it completely.
Partially shaved beard styles look frivolous, vain, silly, etc.
Nature teaches that men should have beards.
But to each her own. ;)
"male and female created he them." (Gen 1:27)
Amen. the simple truth is women should have long hair and men beards for the fact that it sets us apart. Let us not legalistically inforce this but it is good to have a clear distinction between men and women and that is the way God desires and designed it.
Modern culture and even church culture blurries the lines between the male and female.
Just an interesting tidbit. Many native American peoples, such as the Cherokee, do not grow facial hair, or much body hair for that matter, due to their genetic makeup. This is not just a few men here or there, but the majority of the population. It was only when they began to be genetically mixed with people of European descent that they began to be able to grow beards. Would nature not have taught these people that men cannot grow beards?
This is interesting. Until nearly two years ago, I didn't know that there were any congregations that prohibited facial hair (or any that encouraged the growth of facial hair) on men. I was aware that many Amish and Mennonite sects have strict rules and regulations regarding facial hair (amongst other things). I just don't know the specific Scriptural basis for the practice.
A couple of years ago, I attended a strict Pentecostal congregation that prohibit facial hair on men. I have hair on my chin (but no mustache). When my wife and I visited the congregation, I remember noticing the eyes those who greeted us drop from my eyes to my chin (even before I knew about their particular belief about facial hair). After I read about this particular sectarian prohibition toward male facial hair, I was a bit puzzled.
I initially grew my goatee to cover up a deep scar that I had from an accident during college. After the scar healed well enough, I was going to shave. However, my wife (while I was courting her at the time) liked it and asked me to keep it. I have kept it ever since.
I can't think of any passage in the New Testament that speaks about facial hair. I am very much aware of the passage regarding long hair on men or women with shaved heads (in I Corinthians); however, I don't think that I can recall any specific mention of this elsewhere.
Are there any particular New Testament passages upon which these particular ideas (pro-beard or anti-beard) are based? I visited some websites (including websites about Mennonites and Amish) and can find nothing in the Scriptures upon which they base such a practice.
At 43, I've got to remain clean shaven to keep up that boyish look. Vanity? Indeed! LOLPartially shaved beard styles look frivolous, vain, silly, etc.
I think that would be impossible. In order for nature to teach them something about beards, they would have to first see men who had beards.Just an interesting tidbit. Many native American peoples, such as the Cherokee, do not grow facial hair, or much body hair for that matter, due to their genetic makeup. This is not just a few men here or there, but the majority of the population. It was only when they began to be genetically mixed with people of European descent that they began to be able to grow beards. Would nature not have taught these people that men cannot grow beards?
I would grow a beard. If genetics only allowed.......Sigh.....
(Only for the pure reason that I think they look cool)
I enjoy the ability to grow a beard but my wife doesn't like the beard, sometimes she just has to deal with it :). I have been shaving ever since the 5th grade and was the only one in 6th grade sporting a peach fuss tache. It seems the only day of the week I do shave is on Sunday morning then it progressively grows back until the next Sunday unless I watch a movie or TV show with a main character that sports a manly beard and then I generally grow a beard afer that simply to reconnect with my manliness.
For those that can't grow a proper beard you should consider yourself lucky you don't have to shave its a pain :)
I have been shaving ever since the 5th grade and was the only one in 6th grade sporting a peach fuss tache.
HAHA. We should trade genetics, Mathew. What do you say?
Well I don't know maybe do half I enjoy my beard at times just wish it would grow slower :) So you can have half of my beard growing genetics and I'll take half of your nonbeard growing genetics. OR we can just make a complete trade and just test it out for a week to see what we think :)
Hi,
I've pondered the role of the beard from time to time and asked the Spirit about this but not gotten any specific all inclusive wisdom on the matter. Personally, I have been instructed to wear a mustache, not clean shaven and not a full or partial beard. One of the early things the Lord taught me after receiving the Spirit was that appearance does matter but like everything else in the Christian walk it depends on walking in the Spirit. As has been noted already there is no specific instruction regarding facial hair on men in the New Testament. I think that wisdom in this matter requires more than a negative, reactive stance to define why God instructed the men under the Law not to shave or form their beards.
The Lord does not need to speak in the negative to differentiate His work from the World because He is the Truth. In Lev. 19:2 it reads, "Speak to the entire assembly of Israel and say to them; 'Be holy because I, the Lord your God, am holy.'" The command to not shave or form form beards was given in the context of what it means to holy as God is holy. In verse 18 it reads, "Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord." So the question remains, what does shaving one's beard have to do with being holy?
When we look through all the commands here that are given directly in the context of revering the name of the Lord and keeping it holy, God is making a statement about a way in which we men are to display the image of Christ physically in our flesh. I believe that this command has to do with the concept of 'being.' The Lord of Hosts is. He is just. He is merciful. He is love. He cares for the righteous and the sinner and looks out for the poor and alien in land. He is the same from all eternity to all eternity. When a man is at rest in who he is in God, as God is at rest in who He is in Himself, there is no striving to be something or appear as something to fit an image that comes from the World that is rooted in the wisdom of the Powers of the Air. Shaving and forming one's facial hair to conform to societal norms is an affectation and brings the source of one's being into view. This extends to other areas of appearance as well. How do you dress? What do you do with your hair? How do you walk? What is your posture like? What does your face look like when at rest? All these things are external indicators of your internal reality.
Are you fully submitted to Christ? Are you at rest in your Beloved? Are you adorning yourself with the Gospel of Christ? I ask you to humble yourself before God and bring all the subtle vanities of how you look before Christ. How concerned are you about the Glory of God being demonstrated through you?
Removed.
Sorry, I dont want to form debates and things.
I just wanted an opinion on whether men are supposed to have beards. Not according to law but according to a purpose or function of the beard.
I think i'll leave now.
fromtheold, Brother, you have not started a debate at all. Actually, the tone of this thread is pretty lighthearted. I have enjoyed the discussion on the thread. God bless you my brother in Christ.
I think that would be impossible. In order for nature to teach them something about beards, they would have to first see men who had beards.
Ha Ha! You have me there. I guess logically you could not know that you don't have what you don't know exists. I meant to say that they grow very little facial hair, not nearly enough to count as a beard. I am sure there was a genetic "misfit" among them from time to time that had enough facial hair to grow a beard.
Fromtheold, I do understand your withdrawal, your intention is why was the command given in the law and we are all being silly about it. But your going to get that because it's one of those topics that seem to require it. If we talked about why women need to grow hair, oh boy, then you'll have known not to have opened up that can of worms, people get right down nasty.
But your question is a good one and in time, someone will come forward with a good reason as to why it was made law.
It might not have anything to do with the hair itself as more symbolism. For example,
God told Ezekiel to shave his beard and to divide it up into 3rds. Each third symbolized destruction upon the people that lived at Jerusalem. I am not saying that this is why the law was put into place, but only showing this as an example as it may mean something other than what we see with our own eyes. Remember, the old testament was a shadow of good things to come.
The ONLY reason to grow a beard OR the ONLY reason for doing ANYTHING in this life...
1Co 10:31 "Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God."
If you are growing a beard to prove your manliness... or to be different from the world ... or to maintain fellowship with other believers... your yoke is heavy!!!!
I am not sure why the beard was part of the law either.
I have been following this discussion quite loosely...seems to me this is the first time this issue was ever discussed here on SI, at least I do not recall it ever discussed since I am here.
I have male relatives who wear beards for conviction's sake. Some will use the OT law to support their position. Others will say it is to differentiate males from females, that a clean shaven face makes a male look feminine. Maybe this is the reasoning behind the OT law?
EDIT: As I understand the OT law and God's law, God was very particular about the distinction between males and females, that they should never be confused, hence the prohibition against cross-dressing - men wearing clothing that pertains to women and vice-versa. To violate this principle will weaken peoples' conscience against homosexuality. And it has happened in our country in the past century.
(FYI: my husband is clean shaven.)
ginnyrose
To violate this principle will weaken peoples' conscience against homosexuality. And it has happened in our country in the past century.
I think sodomy has to do with the "heart" NOT the "beard".
(I will admit that the obsession with "hairlessness" of men in our culture/society is a statement of rebellion against God's design and an assault against manliness.
But, every Christian man could wear a huge beard and it wouldn't change the heart of others... again, our motive for wearing a beard or NOT wearing a beard MUST be out of love for our Savior!)
Romans 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
For the record... i have a beard... :D
Whats next? Fourskin 4 sure!
I grow my beard mostly because I look like a little boy without it. Now that I have a little silver in it, I never get carded. :-P
http://www.lazarusunbound.com/bunker_the_beard_part_1.shtml
EVERYONE READ IT!
That article was flat out ridiculous. The only quotation from the New Testament was Jesus quoting the Old. Totally subjective "research" as well. I hope the author is not wearing clothing of mixed fibers, and has been keeping up with his annual sacrifices at the temple. In Jerusalem.
I await the sermon about putting to death our rebellious children.
I read the article. Notice the picture they used on their front page is a picture of a man without a beard, lol.
aww, lol. And I cut it up so I can look like one. Too funny man.I grow my beard mostly because I look like a little boy without it.
I had a beard, until it went prematurely grey and someone asked me how old my grandson was. (but it was not my grandson! It was my 7 year old! I don't have any grandchildren, which is a good thing since my oldest child is 16!)
Therefore, I now have a neatly trimmed gotee. Kinda sporty lookin' too.
I only had a beard because I am too lazy to shave all the time. Had nothing to do with the OT Law.
But this does bring up an interesting point. Many people use a verse just down the street from the one about beards to preach against tatoos. If you're going to keep one OT Law you are obligated to keep them all!
Many people use a verse just down the street from the one about beards to preach against tatoos.
You think tattoos enhance ones testimony?
ginnyrose
I don't think that it is "vanity" to shave a beard.
I know plenty of men who shave their faces and women who shave their legs or underarm hair. This isn't so much personal vanity as it is personal preference. In fact, if you work in the food or even some health industry jobs, you can't have a beard (even if it is "neatly trimmed").
As for vanity: I know some men who grow beards for the sake of looking slimmer in the face. In fact, my barber has a poster in his barbershop that advertises this!
I think that we should certainly consider the words of I Corinthians 10:23-31.
23 All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable All things are lawful, but not all things edify.24 Let no one seek his own good, but that of his neighbor.
25 Eat anything that is sold in the meat market without asking questions for conscience' sake;
26 FOR THE EARTH IS THE LORD'S, AND ALL IT CONTAINS.
27 If one of the unbelievers invites you and you want to go, eat anything that is set before you without asking questions for conscience' sake.
28 But if anyone says to you, "This is meat sacrificed to idols," do not eat it, for the sake of the one who informed you, and for conscience' sake;
29 I mean not your own conscience, but the other man's; for (AT)why is my freedom judged by another's conscience?
30 If I partake with thankfulness, why am I slandered concerning that for which I give thanks?
31 Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.
*EDIT - By the way, in my experience, it is much easier shaving a beard when it is small than it is to constantly groom and neatly trim a beard.
You think tattoos enhance ones testimony?
I don't know. Does a beard?
I personally don't think it does. But some stuff like that I think is solely between a person and God. And you never know, God maybe could use tattoos for a persons testimony. I have heard of it happening. One of the guys from my church in California owned a Christian tattoo shop (meaning that he didn't tattoo like naked women, or other objectionable stuff) and some of the guys who would go to the shop would start coming to church. One of the pastors would go down there too, and just hang out with the guys who would come into the shop, and use it as an opportunity for outreach.
Now personally, I don't really like tattoos. I don't find them particularly attractive or nice looking. And it's a good red flag when it comes to girls too. It was also one of the conditions of my service in Japan that I didn't have any, as tattoos here always go hand in hand with the Japanese mafia, and most people here are quite scared of anyone with tattoos.
But that's something between a person and God. There are some things that we do, that we do to honor God that just might ruin our testimony. There was a guy who posted that God wanted him to grow a mustache. That sounds unusual to me, but far be it from me to criticize that man, especially if God did tell him to do it. Now, there are going to be those that when they hear that, instantly keep their distance from him because they'll think he's nuts. So it may just ruin his testimony to some. I know that from previous threads, you've stated that you cover your head, in order to keep with what you believe is the most Scriptural understanding of the New Testament. I think that's great. I don't agree with you, but I find it completely wonderful that you do this, because you do it to honor God. Some however will not, and they'll find this very strange, and will keep quite far away from you, and your testimony may be ruined to some because of it. All these issues are between an individual and God.
That being said though, I will say this, as an observation through my short life. As all the things stated above can seem to go either one way or the other, there's one thing that I've NEVER seen ruin a testimony.
I've never seen a testimony ruined by NOT drinking, or NOT smoking. However, the other side has an overwhelming tally. I'm also one of the ones who's had their testimony blown to shreds in the eyes of the unsaved because of what, at that time, I liked to believe was my "freedom in Christ".
you've stated that you cover your head, in order to keep with what you believe is the most Scriptural understanding of the New Testament. I think that's great. I don't agree with you, but I find it completely wonderful that you do this, because you do it to honor God. Some however will not, and they'll find this very strange, and will keep quite far away from you, and your testimony may be ruined to some because of it.
You are right: I do wear a headcovering. And you are right that it repulses some folks, especially females.
I don't agree with you
Can you give me a Biblical reason why I should not wear a headcovering? Everest, do you have a clue at all why I choose to do so?
ginnyrose
Can you give me a Biblical reason why I should not wear a headcovering? Everest, do you have a clue at all why I choose to do so?
When I said that I didn't agree with you, I did not mean it in the sense that you should not be wearing one. I only meant it in the sense of I don't find it necessary to a Christian womans walk or testimony.
I'm quite aware as to your reasons. I've read many of the posts that you've spoke about this on. Like I said, I have absolutely nothing against your wearing one.
I only meant it in the sense of I don't find it necessary to a Christian womans walk or testimony.
Everest, I do not wear one for testimony's sake. I wear it out of obedience to my Lord and Saviour. Testimony is irrelevant. Oh, sure it happens as a result but it is not the motivation for wearing it.
Do I scare people? The only ones that seemed to be scared are the religious ones.
Back in 1987 I was hired in as a volunteer to counsel clients at a Crises Pregnancy Center. The director, who was a Charismatic, was unsure about me working there: would my appearance frighten the clients? Much to their surprise, it had the opposite effect.
Obey God and let him bother with the results. Works every time.
ginnyrose
Everest, I do not wear one for testimony's sake.
That's why I stated, "walk OR testimony" in my initial statement, which you quoted.
Let me reiterate, I think it's perfectly fine that you wear one. I'm not drawing some line in the sand here, trying to call you out on it, or raise some sort of debate.
I was just using it as a parallel in my other post. I'm not trying to rabbit trail.
Beards in the Bible
Hi Everest,
I wear a mustache out of obedience to a direct command. I get the sense from your comments that your heart says to do "whatever is right in your own eyes" despite your claims to the contrary. The question is not whether it feels good, if you want to look younger but what does God want for you. It is not just freedom from but also freedom to. Being free from the power of sin you are now free to be a slave to Christ to walk by the Spirit of God. As an example, there have been times when the Lord restricted me from shaving almost to the point of growing a beard. I obeyed and through it discovered weaknesses and idolatries in my heart that I need to repent of. My face is not my own just as my thoughts and my words are not my own. My utmost desire is that everything about me be to and a demonstration of God's glory. I am no more than a clay vessel in the hand of my Lord.
Peace on you.
I wear a mustache out of obedience to a direct command.
Do you have that neat stache with handlebars? That would be pretty neat!
I get the sense from your comments that your heart says to do "whatever is right in your own eyes" despite your claims to the contrary.
Hardly. Though as I have yet to see a direct quote from the Bible in either testament that speaks to an individual reader or disciple that wearing a mustache is an obedient act to God, I'm going to say this is entirely subjective revelation on your part.
I would hardly advocate any of that "do what your heart tells you" sort of thing, but if someone wants to say that they're doing something to honor God with, that Scripture will not either confirm or deny the validity of, all power to them. I've heard of men not eating chocolate because they believe God told them not to. There are certain things my father does not do, because he firmly believes God told him not to do them. Are these things wrong or bad? Not at all. But I'm VERY, and I mean VERY hesitant to say the Lord spoke to me to do "this or that" when that very thing may not be 100% clear from Scripture.
A person may have heard from the Lord. Or they may be following a fancy from their own imagination that they believe is the Lord. That's between the person and God. If they want to do it, they're free to, if that's their conviction (remember the context is only based on what Scripture defines, lest there be any more confusion). The only problem I ever have with any of this, is when they start to say that their revelation is something that all good Christians should take note of.
Ginny said: "You think tattoos enhance ones testimony?"
I say: thats putting words in my mouth. I never said that. :-)
"I wear a mustache out of obedience to a direct command."
You do realize that back in the late 70', early 80's the mustache was considered part of the "clone look", which was popularized by the gay community... right?
Now, I do not say that to condemn what you are doing. In fact, I have nothing against anyone wearing a mustache. I'm trying to make a point that all of this "I dont shave", "I have a mustache", "I wear a head covering" means nothing in the long run.
It has nothing to do with the doctrines of grace. Just the fact that people are here explaining why they "do" the things they "do" shows what the real issue is: PRIDE.
Do what you do unto the Lord... and hush. Thats what my mama taught me, and I believe that is biblical.
I say: thats putting words in my mouth. I never said that. :-)
You mentioned tattoos so I wondered whether you would justify its use...
Personally, there is something about tattoos that repulses. This repulsion goes deep into my innermost being. If my granddaughter would be seeing a guy with tattoos I would strongly urge her to cut that relationship short: he is not what you want in a husband! He does not portray a man who seeks after God, or is humble but is one who is extremely vain. It looks devilish...there! now I said it!
This is from a females point of view...and I know many males may not share this viewpoint although my husband does.
ginnyrose
Personally I dont care for or have any tattoos... but I know people who do who love the Lord... and yet are looked down upon by other believers.
Do what you do unto the Lord... and hush. Thats what my mama taught me, and I believe that is biblical.
And I agree with you. Well said, by both yourself and your mother.
Personally, there is something about tattoos that repulses. This repulsion goes deep into my innermost being. If my granddaughter would be seeing a guy with tattoos I would strongly urge her to cut that relationship short: he is not what you want in a husband! He does not portray a man who seeks after God, or is humble but is one who is extremely vain. It looks devilish...there! now I said it!
I understand your convictions ginnyrose, but where would it end?
Example, I know STRONG brothers and sisters in the Lord who in their former unsaved lives got tattoos. Now they have tatoos, yet serve the Lord strongly.
These are brothers and sisters in the Lord. Would we tell other believers not to marry based on the fact of tatoos?
"Personally, there is something about tattoos that repulses. This repulsion goes deep into my innermost being"
me too, as well as my 15 year old son, thank God.
recently, he launched into a 10 minute monlogue, that would have had you doubled over in laughter, as he heaped rebuke on how multi-tatooed men ever expect to be taken seriously in a 21st century economy, heaping it on both his generation, ANd middle aged men, who bear these marks.
it was in the midst of one of our 4 hour long conversations, and it came out of nowhere. It just took me aback with its penetrating analysis of some of the futile ways of his (and my) generations. quite a lad.
we both also agreed, save a wedding band, no jewelry or necklaces for men, gold, silver, and copper is for storage of money. i've imbued him with a healthy distrust of paper fiat money and banks, as well as veerying AWAY from the love and lust of money, for such will pervert his heart, God forbid, and lead a feller into temptation and sin, something, i confessed to him, his ole dad is well versed in...past, now cleansed.
you wrote:
"and I know many males may not share this viewpoint although my husband does."
me an my boy share it too, much love, neil
"Personally I dont care for or have any tattoos... but I know people who do who love the Lord... and yet are looked down upon by other believers."
in spite of my prior post to ginny, my boy an i wouldnt do that...i thought my sons monologue on multi tatted 'dudes' was hilarious because the dear lad is surrounded by so much ungodliness, and wickedness, i was relieved that despite the boys "California cool", he's not only kinda square and conservative, he's also born again.
its a terrible environment out there for the child spirit, so many stumbles, makes me envy the Amish in a way. So much prayer i give up to God, to lead my son in the right Way.....prayer ANd tears, God is faithful, in that i have comfort regarding the ministry of my son, despite the pull of this evil age.
an may YOURS too be so blessed, amen.
neil
Brethren,
Be ye blessed by the Word of the Lord:
But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.
(Titus 3:9-11)
Humbly,
Your servant
Exactly my point... Amen.
I tried to grow one, at the persistent insistence of many family members...
But the itchiness won the day, and I caved.
I spent less time keeping up the "subsurface beard" than many of my brethren in our church, who maintain trimmed, full beards and mustaches. :D
By the way, the Scripture referred to at the beginning appears to be talking about trimming, not full shaving. Not sure if that affects the outcome of this entertaining discussion or not, but it's talking about "rounding corners," not "cutting off."
Sounds like STYLING to me!
:) (just poking fun)
@ HomeSkoolDad: The homosexual "cloning" thing was before my time. Not wearing a beard, mustache or doing anything purely for reactionary reasons goes against your Scriptural point of doing all things "unto the Lord."
@ EverestoSama: I shared my reasons because I love you brother. In loving you I shared what God had put on my heart. Because you have not experienced the Holy Spirit giving you revelation about your personal appearance does not mean A) it is not valid and B) there are not numerous Scriptural precedents.
Because you have not experienced the Holy Spirit giving you revelation about your personal appearance does not mean A) it is not valid and B) there are not numerous Scriptural precedents.
A) I never said that it wasn't valid for YOU.
B) Statements like these need Scripture references, not precedents, or subjective revelation.
I shared my reasons because I love you brother.
Because you loved me you also loaded my mouth and claimed I believed something that I don't. When I refuted your assumption you fell back on what you feel the Lord told you. That's not how we play around here man. It doesn't edify to make blind accusations, and then turtle head with statements like, "Because you have not experienced the Holy Spirit giving you revelation".
I'd be glad to continue this off thread, please check your PMs.
So I have been reading this thread and I am curious what about women that naturally grow facial hair? Where do they fall in this? :)
P.S I know a few women that are genetically hairer and are quite capable of putting some men to shame on beard growing lol ;)
P.S I know a few women that are genetically hairer and are quite capable of putting some men to shame on beard growing lol ;)
One only has to YouTube search "bearded woman" to see just how true this is.
It's a good thing to be freed from the law, or we'd be in quite a pickle.
Because you have not experienced the Holy Spirit giving you revelation about your personal appearance does not mean A) it is not valid and B) there are not numerous Scriptural precedents.
Wow... thats an arrogant statement and really has no place in a conversation like this.
Subjective revelation is now what we are to depend on?
Because you have not experienced the Holy Spirit giving you revelation about your personal appearance does not mean A) it is not valid and B) there are not numerous Scriptural precedents.
We need a revelation about our personal appearance??
Um, here is a quick revelation of your personal appearance.
Go to the bathroom, turn the light on, stand in front of the mirror and if you can see yourself, you have just witnessed a revelation of your appearance.
I mentioned something earlier for just a second, but I think it's something that we all need to be quite aware of.
That is adding the Name of the Lord to anything we say, as some sort of stamp of approval. I.E. God told me to do this, God spoke to me about this, etc. etc. ESPECIALLY if what we're saying cannot be 100% undeniably backed up by Scripture. I'm not sure where we think we get this sort of liberty. People will use His Name so flippantly and so commonly that it can be tacked on to about anything.
"The Lord told me to shop at Rite-Aid today instead of Walmart."
"God spoke to me and told me to drive home a different way from work on Thursdays"
I even had a lady once tell me, "God spoke to me, letting me know exactly how to cut down the tree stump in the back of my yard." She then proceeded to demonstrate that it was to make a sweeping motion in the shape of a cross, thus further validating that it must have been from God.
In the Old Testament, men weren't just allowed to say anything in the Lord's Name. You were LITERALLY putting your life on the line. If you were wrong, and spoke presumptuously, your life was forfeit. You think God didn't mind if you blundered a few things that you decided to stamp His Name on? But we all make bad judgement calls, yeah? In the OT, you didn't get the bailout option of a bad judgement call. And we think a holy God is not incredibly serious about the casual use of His Name?
We need to learn the difference of being led somewhere by the Spirit, or the Spirit revealing something to us VS actually hearing God speak directly to us. Have we seen many real prophets? I can tell you this, the very few REAL ones I've ever ran across have had such a heavy reverence for the Name, they wouldn't dare speak it 1/10000th of the frequency that I see it being tossed around by a group of people who think God's giving them all this fantastic revelation. Art Katz mentioned something to this effect when referencing a pastors meeting or something he attended one time. A man stood up and declared that he had received something from God to share with them. Mr. Katz said at first he was ecstatic, but it soon gave way to disappointment, as he realized the man had received nothing of the sort.
Most of what I see today is either self delusion of a rehash of Kings 22. Now if you have to look up Kings 22, to figure out what I'm talking about, I would instantly distrust anything that came out of your mouth as being a Word from God. The terror of the possibility of what happens in that chapter should be on the forefront of anyone's mind the moment they even begin to dream of speaking in God's name. And the funny thing is this, if they are a victim of the same, they really ARE giving a word that IS from the Lord (In a manner of speaking). It's just not what they think it is.
There's power in the Name of the Lord. Serious power. Yet we wonder why the name of the Lord lacks the punch it should. Could it be that we've made it so common, He no longer trusts it to us? We're quite willing to put it on any revelation or idea that "seems quite Biblical and/or good" or may even sound "profound" in the way we think God should sound. But is any of that what the requirement is for speaking on behalf of Him?
But maybe this shouldn't be so surprising. After all, most people still believe that the third commandment only means that we shouldn't use the Lord's Name as an expletive.
ROFL"The Lord told me to shop at Rite-Aid today instead of Walmart." "God spoke to me and told me to drive home a different way from work on Thursdays" I even had a lady once tell me, "God spoke to me, letting me know exactly how to cut down the tree stump in the back of my yard.
Well, I can't say that the Lord ever said go here or go there, but I have found myself wandering hither and yon to the place I think He would have me be because I'd bump into brethren that I haven't seen in months which always turns out to be a blessings. Normally, I rarely see anyone that I know of Christian wise, so when I do see them, It's got to be God leading.
I have heard of stories from people that would have great yearnings not to go down any further on a certain highway but to stop and wait. As they continue on their way after they waited, they came upon a 13 car pile up.
But I have heard of so many people taking the Lord's name in vain.
And this is the true meaning of taking the Lord's name in vain, using it in a "thus sayeth the Lord" and He is not even talking.
I am of the Pentecostal variety and I have heard so many things go on within this group that is absolutely foolish. But that never caused me to abandoned what I experienced, I will hold on to that till this carcass drops. However, there are a lot of flighty people out there that either don't reverence His name or never knew Him in the first place.
Well, I can't say that the Lord ever said go here or go there, but I have found myself wandering hither and yon to the place I think He would have me be because I'd bump into brethren that I haven't seen in months which always turns out to be a blessings. Normally, I rarely see anyone that I know of Christian wise, so when I do see them, It's got to be God leading.
Oh yes. I believe in this 100%, but I'm also with you on that it's a LEADING of God and of the Spirit.
It's the "commandments" and "words" that are accredited to Him that make me leery. Real Words from God should be just overpowering with weight, and piercing in the most crucial way. Also, being anything but 100% in perfect line with Scripture is not an option. Not just some clever sounding spiritual-ish anecdote, or something that would make a catchy Christian bumper sticker, or fit well on one of those Christian single serving tear off calendars found in pastors' offices and believers' bathrooms.
It's just like what HomeSkoolDad said:
If God really did speak to an individual, and give them something just between the individual and Him, that's probably where it should stay... Just between the individual and Him. (the expanded version)
This thread is really turned into what Paul said we should avoid... endless debates about nothing. Dont want to shave? Then dont. Want to shave? Then shave. Want to wear of head covering... by all means do it!
Who cares? God doesnt.
He told me so!
(Sorry, couldn't resist!)
I will lock this thread since it have no longer any upbuilding material for the body of christ, whatever you do, do it unto the Lord.... if you are convinced to grow your beard do so unto the Lord, as i understand and have heard from a jewish rabbi he told me that it has to do with "nakedness" , that showing your throat was showing your body, so when a Priest entered or was to make a sacrifice he was "clothed" , if i remember right even their "dress" was long to cover their legs. If this is the reason god commanded men not to cut their beard i am not convinced, although i have "semi" long beard myself most of the time i do not judge those who chose not to if their concience do not condem them i do not either.
If you find the word of God commands you to not shave and you do to you that would be sin.... because you are convinced god commands something and yet you willfully disobey.
so agian do everything unto the Lord. I know very godly men who have a beard, and i know men who are lightyears ahead of my spiritually that are clean shaved.
All these little things we tend spend so much time on.... let us press on brothers and sisters.
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