What grace is this?

Kathleen Naylor, Myerstown, PA

Dear readers, I write this to you in my dear Savior’s name, for His glory.

I grew up a strict Catholic girl, never hearing God’s plan of salvation. I was never told to read the Bible and never knew anything about a personal relationship with God.

At the age of twenty, I was married to Robert. This five-year marriage was agonizing, as he committed adultery numerous times. (I have long ago forgiven him and have been praying for his salvation for 28 years.) It ended up that I had to live with a family in Doylestown, Pa. Divorce papers were delivered to me at this home. I knew nothing of it and never signed anything.

Two years later, I was working in a convenience store in Piscataway, NJ. I felt very distant from God. I whispered a prayer in my heart as I worked, “God, draw me closer to you.” I did not yet realize that God had even heard my prayer.

Three weeks later, an older gentleman came in the store and began reciting scriptures and telling me about Jesus. Through his persistent witnessing, I was brought to salvation, in 1982.

In 1985, I married Mark Naylor, who was also a babe in the Lord. We met at Central Bible Church in Boundbrook, NJ. Our pastor told us it was okay to get remarried, since both our spouses had committed adultery on us and we were the innocent ones. We believed him and were so very happy together. We had two children. Never could we imagine the agony we would go through later.

Up until about 2002, we had experienced Pentecostal, Evangelical, Baptist, and Non-Denominational churches, but not one ever taught on divorce/remarriage, modest apparel, or the dangers of “eternal security” teachings. Half of the people in those churches were divorced and remarried.

According to the following Scriptures, marriage is “until death do you part.”

For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. Ro. 7:2-3
Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery. Lu. 16:18
The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Ps. 12:6
We moved to Bethel, PA, approximately eight years ago. We visited Ephrata Christian Fellowship for a while, but God led us strongly to Harmony Christian Fellowship, where we have been attending for over seven years.

One evening, precious David and Cherie Cooper came to visit Mark and I. With love, anguish, and Scripture pouring out of their godly hearts, they explained to us that we were living in adultery. We were shocked to hear all of this, as no one had ever made it known to us before. How I wish it had been! How I wish I had been under godly preachers as I am now, who preach all of God’s Word and not just tickle the ears and keep the pews filled. What agony this would have prevented!

That evening will be forever in my memory. I’ll never forget the pain on Cherie’s face. What loving, obedient servants they were to come to us with such devastating news, the truth. Oh, how I thank my Lord for sending them!

However, I was not thankful at the time. I was stunned and confused. That evening, as Mark and I began the search of our lives, the Coopers kindly left us with some tapes to listen to on this truth. I nearly wore those tapes out over the next year of my seeking God, all the while hoping it was not true.

Satan was not happy. This became more evident as my seeking was consuming me. Praise ye the LORD. Blessed is the man that feareth the LORD, that delighteth greatly in his commandments. Ps. 112:1 Come and hear, all ye that fear God, and I will declare what he hath done for my soul. Ps. 66:16

How the dear sisters at Harmony church loved me, patiently showed me Scripture, and fervently prayed. For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. He. 4:12

I spoke to Mark, saying that I’d be moving out of our bedroom into our daughter Kelsi’s room if God showed me that we really were living in adultery. At one point in my search, I spent three days with a precious Christian lady friend in another state. For three days, all we did was search the Scriptures and pray. We went to a Christian bookstore and stayed there for six hours, reading every book we could find on the subject. The books we read were by some very well-known, looked-up-to authors, pastors, and speakers.

Sadly, not even one believed what God says in His Word about divorce and remarriage. I was still confused as we left the store. When the three intense days of searching, studying, and agonizing were over, my friend—who is one of the most intelligent, kind ladies I’ve ever met—looked at me and said, “Well, Kath, you’re convinced now that you and Mark are okay, right?”

I said, “No, I am not convinced.”

I’ll just say that God’s love and patience for me is so deep. He knew that I was a thickhead, but he also knew that I wanted to be clear with Him and walk pleasing in His sight, in all His truth. So, for the one-hundredth time, I knelt down in my prayer closet (the bathroom) and cried out to Him: “Lord, I beg you to show me the truth, and I will obey You.”

It was a moment I will never forget. God graciously and lovingly poured out His truth into my heart right there, no doubts at all ever again—I was living in adultery.

I nearly crumpled to the floor with agony, but also with relief, if you can comprehend those feelings. I had desperately wanted God to tell me, “You and Mark are okay.” That evening, I told Mark what God had revealed to me, and even in his agony he so kindly and respectfully said, “You and Kelsi take the big room, and I’ll take Kelsi’s room.” Her room is the size of a stamp.

I tell you this in all truthfulness, that even though Mark didn’t share my conviction on the subject at that time, he never looked at me the same way again. Never again did he touch me or ask me. This is only God’s love and mercy. Mark had nothing but agony, love, and respect in his heart. We lived as brother and sister, yes, under the same roof. But the adultery stopped. This continued for a time, until God eventually worked it out that Mark moved into a separate home.

I’m so grateful to my Lord for all He has done and is doing. How He sustains me! How He carries me!

I’m so thankful for my brothers and sisters in Christ who help, love, and encourage me. They cannot fathom just how much. I cannot stress enough to read the Scriptures on divorce and remarriage. God’s Word is true and clear.

We must set aside our own pain and dwell on the pain it causes our Lord if we remain in adultery. We must repent. When all is said and done, only what is done for Christ will last. Eternity is forever. To God be all the glory! ~

Her Husband's Story

Mark Naylor, Bethel, PA

I grew up Catholic, following all the Sacraments. The Church led me to believe that I was going to heaven, but in my heart I knew I wasn’t saved.

I got married early in life, at age 18, to a girl named Karen. Everything went fine for the first four years, but then we began having arguments and disagreements. Karen was working evenings, and one night when I went to see her, she wasn’t there. I found out she was having a relationship outside the marriage. It seemed that my entire life was coming unraveled. I remember one night when I was crying and hurting pretty bad, being outside gazing into the heavens. I didn’t truly know the Lord at this time, but I said, “God, if you’re out there, make yourself known to me.”

I started using drugs and alcohol around this time, to cover up the pain inside. My mom noticed what I had been doing, and it hurt her pretty bad. She came one night to talk to me and pleaded with me to stop using drugs and alcohol. She told me that my brother Butch had started going to this church called Central Bible Church, and asked if maybe we could go together on the next Sunday. I went, just to make her happy. Going to this church was a lot different than going to the Catholic Church. The people seemed friendly and happy, and I just couldn’t figure out what made them tick. It took about three Sundays before the Lord opened my eyes, ears, and heart to the gospel message. I got saved that day.

I tried to reconcile my marriage to Karen, but she told me she was seeing somebody else and didn’t want things to change. A few months later, I tried leading her to Christ, but she said she wasn’t ready for a commitment at that time. She asked me for a divorce a few months after that, so we got divorced.

It was about two months after this that I met Kathleen. We became very good friends, and our relationship started to grow. I went to the pastor to see if it would be okay for us to get married. He said it was, because both of our spouses had committed adultery, and besides, “God was a God of second chances.” So Pastor Bill married us. We had two daughters together.

As time moved on, we attended various Evangelical churches, but ended up in Oregon in a home church, and home schooling. This led us to the Godly Home tapes by Bro. Denny Kenaston. In 2002, we moved to Pennsylvania and started attending Ephrata Christian Fellowship, and enjoyed it very much.

One day, Bro. David Cooper asked if he could come over and talk to us. He confronted us on our being divorced and remarried. I took it pretty hard and asked him to leave. I didn’t believe what they were saying was right. I was distressed in my spirit, and started searching the Scriptures. I was hanging on to Matthew 19:9 and Matthew 5:31-32, believing that infidelity on the part of a spouse justified putting him/her away. But I couldn’t find any scriptures that supported remarriage.

For two years, I continued to search, searching in the Greek and Hebrew, hoping that the church’s stand on divorce and remarriage was wrong. It was during this period that Kathleen and I separated rooms. I somehow just wanted to hang on to the fact that I was right, that Kathleen and my “marriage” was okay in God’s eyes. At one point, I thought I found scriptures in 1 Corinthians 7 to support our being married, but as I read them in context, I saw that they were talking about something completely different than I thought. I realized that I was only divorced from my first wife by worldly law, and not by God’s law. I also read something that confirmed this in Romans 7:2-3. It said that the only separation that would allow me to be remarried in God’s eyes would be the death of my first spouse. Even though at that moment I knew it was true, I still did not want to accept it. My walk with the Lord started really growing cold, and I wasn’t fellowshipping.

In November 2007, Kathleen and I separated houses. Kathleen was afraid that I would be upset, but I respected her wishes and moved out. We stayed friends and are still friends today.

After I moved, I read the series of articles in The Heartbeat of the Remnant by Dean Taylor titled “The Exception Clause.” The information there helped back up what I already knew to be true. Regrettably, I was still too stubborn to acknowledge this truth out front.

In May 2009, we went to a tent meeting in Amherst, Virginia at Dayspring Christian Fellowship. While Jerry Mawhorr was preaching, I felt the Lord tugging at my heart. The Holy Spirit let me know that I was wrong for being angry at Him and at the church people who had told me the truth. I asked the Lord’s forgiveness, and He restored me.

I thank the Lord that He put it into my heart to ask David Cooper for forgiveness for the way I felt toward him. I visited him a few weeks after I got back from the meeting, and the Lord blessed our time together. I also asked the other brothers that I had been bitter against for forgiveness. I am now back in fellowship at Harmony Christian Fellowship. I thank the Lord for His love, patience, and mercy in my life. ~

Now that is 'evil at work'!
To be more accurate and personal, place a D before 'evil'.

Some say they're a testimony of grace, but I say to you that they're a testimony of disgrace.

These words were written at the beginning of the article, "Yes, they are testimonies of “the true grace of God!” 1 Pe. 5:12".

These were in a magazine called, "The Heartbeat of the Remnant" published by Charity Ministries.

I tell you the truth, there are numerous others who have also had their marriages and family destroyed by these impostors and their lies.

Is this story about Charity Ministries, or this couple. Not sure what your getting at. Blessings!

hi, it says that fornication is reason enough for divorce.. they are not qualified to be elders or deacons because he is not a husband of one wife but to be holier than abraham,isaac,jacob,david etc.?Jesus did not condemn the woman at the well...or the woman caught in adultery... we all make mistakes in life and Gods grace is new every morning.even the man who had relations with his mother in law was restored. God does hate divorce because it has to do with covenant...God is a covenant keeper.jimp

While I never have studied this subject extensively, I can see that almost all of your answers have nothing to do with what the Scriptures says to the matter, but rather sentimental feelings.
Jimp says:…..but to be holier than abraham,isaac,jacob,david etc.?

(1) I am sure jimp that you are not holier than Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, but I do not assume that you are married to more that one wife at the same time as Abraham and Jacob did. It is not a matter of being holier but a matter of being under a different dispensation. 29But this I say, brethren, the time is short: that those that have wives be as though they have none;

30And they that weep, as though they wept not; and they that rejoice, as though they rejoiced not; and they that buy, as though they possessed not;
31And they that use this world, as though they use it not : for the fashion of this world passeth away.

(2) Both the woman at the well and the woman caught in adultery were not saved at the time. God is willing to receive anyone no matter what their sin is , but not without the command: Go and sin no more!!! as he did to the woman that was caught in adultery.

(3) There is a difference between a mistake and sin. There are sins done in ignorance, they may call those mistakes although in God’s eyes they are sins, But the times of ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

(4) While we know that Paul wrote 4 epistles to the Corinthians and not only two, therefore we really don’t know that he is speaking of the same person in 2 Corinthians 2 . However, this is what he says in 1 Corinthians 5:

1It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
7Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
8Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

That was the judgment the Apostle had demanded take place with an unrepentant sinner.
But if the sinner repents, the church should receive him in love, and show him grace.

Snuf,
All your statements are declarative and absolute.

What pure Garbage!! ( Absolute statement)

That woman was deceived.( Absolute statement)

Her relationship with Mark was A ok. ( Absolute statement)

She got duped by "loving legalists".( Absolute statement)

God would have worked it out that she would have staid with Mark. ( Absolute statement)

There is just no way that that woman is happy today. ( Absolute statement)

snuf, you must be omniscient. I always knew that only God was omniscient but now I know that I didn’t know as I aught to know.

Snuf also said:

“He worked it out for David and Bathsheba and worse, David killed the husband and he still got the woman.”

What a Christian advice!!! However, I suggest you read the whole story of David and the consequences the man after God’s own heart was not spared to suffer for God has no respect of person. God told David: You sin is forgiven , but because of what you have done, you caused the enemies of God to rejoice.

Every one who rejoices in David’ sin ( meaning to be glad that he did what he did and to mention it to others that they may follow the same course of action ) IS AN ENEMY OF
GOD.

Many have mentioned the children.

Many a people groups who did not know the Lord and lived in polygamy, but after they came to know the Lord had to give up their 10 or 20 wives whom they many children with. They still supported those wives and children and remained to be fathers and much better ones to their children .

Those who fear that the children would have hatred for God because of that are mistakes and earthly minded, for God rewards those who obey Him. But if God Almighty chooses not to reward them in this life, so be it.

I think of the martyrs who for the sake of following in Christ foot-steps, had to denounce everything in this life, one of whom was John Bunyan of whom it was said:

The enforced separation from his wife and children, especially his tenderly loved blind daughter, Mary, was a continually renewed anguish to his loving heart. "The parting with them," he writes, "hath often been to me as pulling the flesh from the bones; and that not only because I am somewhat too fond of these great mercies, but also because I should often have brought to my mind the many hardships, miseries, and wants my poor family was like to meet with, should I be taken from them; especially my poor blind child, who lay nearer to my heart than all beside. Poor child, thought I, thou must be beaten, thou must beg, thou must suffer hunger, cold, nakedness, and a thousand calamities, though I cannot now endure the wind should blow on thee. O, the thoughts of the hardships my blind one might go under would break my heart to pieces." He seemed to himself like a man pulling down his house on his wife and children's head, and yet he felt, "I must do it; O, I must do it."

UntoBabes.

The Lord does not want fathers to leave their children and wife. I just don't buy it. Our family is our first ministry.

You seem to know about the martyrs for Christ. Read up on our Chinese brothers. You will read that there are strong regrets that they left their families, realizing after their families left them (because they were left) that the Lord did not want them to leave their families in the first place.

I am sorry miccah,

One of us must have misunderstood the Lord when He says: whoever loves father or mother, sister or brother, son or daughter, yeh, even his own self more than me is not worthy of me.

I am not advocating walking away from our responsibilities, or not love our families, but as I see the scriptures teach clearly that the Lord comes first. We must make the choice daily to not deny Him.

As for the Chinese Christians, I like to hear it from them, not the misinterpretations that nominal Christians in the West put to their words.

No worries UntoBabes. I was thinking about this scripture when I wrote what I wrote. Context is key. What about 1 Timothy 5:8?

If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his immediate family, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

Does this mean that those that leave their families are worse then unbelievers? Wow. I don't want to be grouped into that group. Does the Lord come first? Yes. Do we leave our family to the wolves? No.

And Yes, you are advocating exactly what you are saying that you do not advocate. At least stick by your guns and admit what you believe.

As for the Chinese Christians, feel free to look up "The Heavenly Man". Do some research on these brothers. Please don't take what I say as scripture... I sure am not taking what you say as such, me being "nominal" and all...

hi untobabes, the first marriage ended while they were not yet saved...they were married with a clear idea of faithfulness for each other...they had children...they were living for the Lord...all of the old had passed away.i could not believe that Jesus would advise them to separate or even our beloved paul...jimp

Reading what this woman did, and what she persuaded her husband to do-- yes, her HUSBAND-- persuaded him, I mean, with the counsel of the elders of this group... it just pained my heart and left a bad taste in my mouth.

Another marriage shipwrecked... and by whom? Not by the rocks and reefs of the world, of which there are many, but by Christian "elders."

No wonder our Lord Jesus Christ must come forth in this hour in such FIRE and LIGHT that it exposes all that is falsely done in His Name, and consumes it all!

...By the way, here is a group that has married the word "remnant" to their own little denomination. "Heart of the Remnant," they call their publication.

I really like Denny Kenaston's ministry. His "Godly Home" series have blessed my family and I greatly.

I would fall into the group "Divorce beliefs are off".

This post hit my heart. Thank you for posting this.

I used to believe the same about divorce and remarriage due to the same influences.

However, some of the brothers and sisters at these churches are still very near and dear to my heart.

I am glad to see Jerry Mawhorr's name mentioned. This brother used to bless me tremendously back in the day.

snufapologus wrote:

Quote: Denny Kenaston Isn't this the same man that preached at the Revival conferences?

I would not discount Denny's preaching. I still have notes written in my Bible from some of his messages! :) He is still a man of God.

by snufalapagus on 2010/10/13 6:06:45

I hear ya Everest, it's just that where do we draw the line with law?

We seem to sit under it at ours or someone else's expense or whenever it suits us.

We are dead to divorce, but if divorce happens which is a sin, we have an advocate with the father Christ Jesus our Lord who will forgive us of our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Does forgiveness stop at Divorce?

The way people talk it seems it does. To them it's the unpardonable sin.

You bring up a good question Everest about the Children. God would have us to visit the fatherless and widow, but these children are now without a father because of religious nuts. These kids will no doubt hate God because God broke up their marriage.

Satan is happy.

Divorce is a sin, yes. Is it covered? Yes. But the question is not divorce, but, rather, the sin of re-marriage afterwards. Re-marriage is wrong, since the other spouse is living: it is classified as adultery. Paul defines that fact very clearly in Romans 7.

You might say, "Well, they were remarried before they were saved, so that re-marriage was covered in the blood also, therefore, it's ok..."

Well, if it's adultery before, is it still adultery after?

If a drunk gets saved, is his drinking forgiven? Absolutely. But can he keep on drinking?

No.

Why? Because it is still sin. The same is true to the sin of remarriage while the other spouse is still living.

I also sense a lot of anger and bitterness in your words... please check your heart everyone on this thread...

In this whole discussion of the "Charity" churches, i'm seeing a lot of people bashing them, criticizing them, etc.

This is not Christian, nor is it wise.

This grace is that which teaches us to "deny ungodliness and worldly lusts [desires]." (Titus 2:11-15)

My heart bleeds as I think about the many broken homes and corrupt influences that have so swallowed up our concept of right that we hardly know what it is anymore. It also pains me to see brethren that I know personally being attacked because of their careful attention to conscience. Godliness is offensive to the world by its very nature (Matthew 10:32-40). A servant of God will be unpopular and most people will hate him (Luke 11:47-52).

If you are one that is in a divorced/remarried situation, I pray you will not take offense to what I will say here. I am NOT attacking you. I only ask that you prayerfully consider the plain words of Jesus and do not rationalize Him away. Please search it out for yourself and seek the Lord's will for you.

First of all, we all know and agree that the words of our Lord Jesus Christ explain and supersede all that has gone before, including the Law of Moses. Everything MUST be interpreted by what He has said. This is an axiom upon which I have striven to build my life.

According to Jesus, remarriage after divorce is sin, based upon many clear statements He made on the subject:

It hath been said, "Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:" But I say unto you, "That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery."
Matthew 5:31-32

And the Pharisees came to Him, and asked Him, "Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife?" tempting Him.
And He answered and said unto them, "What did Moses command you?"
And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away."
And Jesus answered and said unto them, "For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. 'For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.' What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder."
And in the house His disciples asked Him again of the same matter.
And He saith unto them, "Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her. And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery."
Mark 10:2-12 (see also Matthew 19:3-9)

"Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery."
Luke 16:18

Even if we consider the "exception clause" referred to in some of these passages, the "clause" will only allow for divorce. Never, in any case except death of the spouse, is remarriage allowed for according to Jesus. Please, let the Scripture speak for itself without squeezing it through our "cultural mold". Nothing is mentioned here of believers or unbelievers. It is a universal principle from time immemorial, as Jesus alludes to in Matthew 10:6-9.

We may give reasons as to why "it won't work." Let us not forget, brethren, that God will not always tell us to do the "reasonable" thing (c.f. Isaiah 55:6-9, 1 Corinthians 1:18-29). Jesus gave us commands, and we must obey because WE LOVE HIM more than ANYTHING else! If something else is causing us to rationalize disobedience to Him, where is our love truly at?

We are called to deny ourselves, take up our cross and follow Him. This is grace that empowers us to live in a way that honors God, and leaves the world wondering what we are doing (Titus 2:11-15, mentioned above). Grace is power, not license (Romans 6:1; Jude 1:4). That grace working in our lives can mean painful separations in family, church and occupation (Mark 10:29-30). Therefore this IS the grace of God moving in two believers' lives.

Christianity has always been in stark opposition to the spirit of the age. Why is it that only recently the church has altered her standard about divorce, remarriage and other such related matters? It is only because the world at large has shifted its opinions. You will not find that such things were ever permitted in the church until our more "modern" times.

We have done much "sowing", now we are "reaping".

Friends, it is not the Scripture that has changed. It is us.

At the bare minimum, if the sister and brother in the article feel the Lord was telling them to separate, can we not allow them the liberty to do so? Remember, liberty of conscience should work both ways (Romans 14:4 et al). Why are we so afraid of legalism that we keep ourselves from following our conscience, and the plain teaching of the Word of God?

Brethren, can we not at the very least allow for liberty here, in this voluntary separation?

I will not continue a debate on this topic, as I can see it will be counterproductive. Call me a parrot. Call me a literalist. Call me a cultist. Call me biased. Call me prudish. You are welcome to dissect and twist and destroy my posting all you wish... just know that I love you all in Jesus' name! :)

I pray this forum does not further digress into a cesspool of accusation and wrathful rhetoric. Let us share freely, but in the love of Jesus. Oh, that we would love Jesus unashamedly, unreservedly, unwaveringly!

After all, it is before Him that we will all give answer for our conduct on that great Day (2 Corinthians 5:10).

I pray that I have not unnecessarily offended anyone. Please, please, please, if you are divorced and remarried, do not be angry with me or with anyone here... read the words of Jesus and consider them. I do not condemn you, I only ask you to meditate on these very grave and direct words of Jesus. Your souls may depend on it.

Peace and blessings to all in Jesus,

Question:

According to the Scriptures and the whole counsel of God from Genesis to Revelation, what is a lawful divorce and what does it do?

Actually there are two question in one.

Please answer *IF* able(rightly dividing the Word of Truth).

Please study the question carefully before answering,and then answer the question as it is set forth.

Thanks in advance for your serious consideration of the above.

"Grace be with all them who love our Lord Jesus the Messiah without corruptness. Amen." Eph. 6:24

A quote from factnet. "I like Charity Gospel. I still listen to their tapes. I've learned things there that I never learned anywhere else. I appreciate what they are trying to do. They have their divorce doctrine totally wrong though. It goes against scriptures completely."

Of course, I have no doubt that she learned good things. No one preaches straight out lies. Lies are always mixed with truth. Jessie Penn-Lewis said it best, "Satan needs a few good teachers in which to float his lies".

The fact that 90% of the teaching may be great, actually convinces them that the 10% of lies must be "right" because everything else is.

But the fruit is rotten. ALIENATION. And their alienation is not just with children and former husbands and wives but with the Lord God Himself. They have alienated themselves from HIM, by believing lies and perverting His character.

A quick note to you, pilgrim777...

You talk about fruit and quote an ambiguous blanket statement about them separating families, alienation...

I'd like to ask you a question: since when was alienation from evil a bad thing?

If it is sin to stay in adultery (see my previous post) then what is right about "letting God work it out"? Does God call us to live in sin? I know you know the answer to that.

You have probably never really worked with these people, nor know them, and have only researched them from afar, through websites such as the one you linked to; factnet.org

Many of the people who write about their "bad experiences" with the "Charity" churches are wrong in many of their statements and their assumptions. Many are very selfish individuals who really just want their way (not saying all of them, but i personally know several) and because of that interpreted the elders' instructions in the light of such...

You also likened Kathleen's fear of losing her salvation to a cult-like strategy to keep her around; unless you believe you can never fall away from the faith, i see nothing wrong with her being fearful: when we walk in sin, we SHOULD be fearful, lest we continue in it, and be caught unawares when our time is up.

If fear is a sure-fire way to find a cult, i guess you'd have to say that everyone who is a true Christian, who allows his conscience to operate, is in a cult. Fear is a good thing, in the context of dealing with sin.

It has been said that the bad side of a product is more widely publicized than the good; i think this is also very true to church movements. As you consider this, please remember that the "fruit" you spoke of isn't the only "fruit" that comes from that ministry. There is much good fruit too.

Are they human, and can, and have made mistakes, even preached things wrongly in the past, and possibly currently, and in the future? Yes.

But should we take that, along with several "poor me" stories and complaints, and throw out something that God is obviously using for His glory?

I don't think so...

You mentioned that since 90% is correct, "they" swallow the 10% which is not. This is not true for all which listen to their teachings. I (one of "they") have noticed things that have been preached from there which were not right, and have spoken to several preachers from there and (for the record) they have been open to correction... That can't be said about many preachers today.

What i can't figure out is why many people are so severe with "Charity" and some other modern movements, and so lenient with others... if you'd take the same judgements and applied them to many other movements from the past (many of which we revere and look upon as wonderful examples), you would have to come to the same conclusions you are coming to with "Charity" churches... apostate; heresy; false teachers.

Please, let's stop spewing out bitterness, condemnation, and angry words in the name of "truth".

This thread could very easily become like the one on Rick Warren... Let's not let that happen...

God bless,
-nathan

Note that they knew it was possibly wrong at that time, but their pastor said it was ok...

Remember, the issue isn't so much the divorce, but the remarriage...

EDIT: wanted to add also, that their second marriage was not legitimate, since their spouses were still living... therefore, in God's eyes, it was not divorce, but repentance from adultery.

Good morning!

I can see how you could interpret that scripture and others in that way, but the fact that the early church Christians didn't interpret it as that, and they also believed that remarriage was sin, if the spouse was still living.

You can twist the interpretation of other simple scriptures on the subject to fit into that one, but the fact remains that it is sin, and has always been seen as that, until christians contemporary to the early ones, began seeking an "out" for their sin.

Please see the "Ante-Nicene Fathers" volumes for yourself to see what they believed about divorce, remarriage, etc.

One of the major mistakes of our modern Christianity, is that we have tried to re-invent the wheel... we make our own twists on scriptures, to fit our own situations, our own problems, and our own desires, when we can easily look back into the Bible, take it for what it says, and also see what the believers around that time thought about it too.

Not saying that i discount the modern commentaries, but i think in some ways they are incorrect, in light of early Christianity, in some ways.

God bless.

by pilgrim777 on 2010/10/14 5:17:02

wanted to add also, that their second marriage was not legitimate, since their spouses were still living... therefore, in God's eyes, it was not divorce, but repentance from adultery.

Read what Alive-to-God said. We have made remarriage the unpardonable sin.

It is pardonable if it is repented of, just like any other sin. Remember the drunkard? He can't continue in his sin, so too for the adulterer.

I thank God for the brethren on here who I believe truly understand grace. For the other brethren on here who are more bound to the literal word of Law I would like to offer something to consider. For I use to be as hard as you are until God showed me His hatred of Legalism.

There are some key things to consider for those who are trapped into legalism trying to prove that they love God and his word more than others. Just so you know, I have been married only one time for over 26 years. The key things that I believe God showed me were that I was not to put anything greater than the grace of God through the blood sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Also the marriage was arranged differently for the Jews because the Gentiles had neither the customs nor the Law given to the Jews.

Acts 15:7-21 (KJV) 7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. 12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them. 13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: 14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, 16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: 17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. 18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. 19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. 21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

So consider what Jesus said about “whom God hath joined together” and also consider
Matthew 19:9-11 (KJV) 9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery. 10 His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry. 11 But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.

Also what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 7:1-9 (KJV) 1 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. 2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband. 3 Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband. 4 The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife. 5 Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency. 6 But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment. 7 For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that. 8 I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I. 9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.

The sad thing is that those who are bound to legalism and trying to prove they Love God the most have no real compassion on others who have been affected by the sin of adultery neither considering God’s compassion toward them.

For example it is easier to believe that God can forgive multiple adulteries and fornication as long as the person never made a vow of marriage. So someone could sleep around with multiple partners and never have to go back to the first one because he never made a vow of marriage even though he is a whoremonger and has defrauded many.

Oh, we believe the blood of Jesus can cover all sin except when a person makes a vow of marriage. Do you see what the legalists are doing; they are putting a person’s unenlightened words to a vow above the grace and blood of Jesus.

I could say more but to keep from such a long post I will stop and let others consider all the scriptures and reason for themselves. Jesus and neither did the apostles ever say that one had to go back to their first spouse or a person had to remain unmarried because marriage is also to avoid fornication.

Blessings to all!

For example it is easier to believe that God can forgive multiple adulteries and fornication as long as the person never made a vow of marriage. So someone could sleep around with multiple partners and never have to go back to the first one because he never made a vow of marriage even though he is a whoremonger and has defrauded many.

This exactly the point that proves how legalistic those are who would try and break up a marriage. I have never heard them say to those who have had a number of relationships (even producing children) prior to conversion that they are not free to marry and should either marry one of the ex-partners (which one though?) or remain single.

It is unfortunately not uncommon today to find people who have lived with a few different partners and produced children with them all. So if they come to repentance and salvation, what advice will you have for them? Will they say, 'Oh it's OK because you never married'! This proves that they apply truth in a legalistic way, just as those Pharisees that Jesus condemned.

Let me add to this point. Let's look at two persons:

Man A:
He has had mulitple partners, but never married. He even commited adultery with a couple of married women. He then hears the gospel and is convicted of his sins, repents and knows that he is now cleansed from his past sins and is free. He later meets a godly women. Is he free to marry her? He is told yes of course.

Man B:
He was faithfully married to one woman, but his wife ran off with another and set up home with the second man and divorces the first, who later hears the gospel and is convicted of his sins, repents and knows he is cleansed from all his sins. He is then told that although he is saved and cleansed from all sin, in fact he is not free to consider marriage for the rest of his life (unless his fist wife dies). His first wife who is now married again is holding him in bondage.

These are not unusual cases and treats the first person in a better way than the second. I would say even condones sleeping around as preferable to marriage! Crazy or what!

Not long ago on a SI forum topic there was a situation that someone was asking advice for a young christian man who had fallen into sin and slept with a girl and made her pegnant. He repented and she was open to the gospel. I am of the opinion that his responsibility was to marry the girl. However one person on here who takes the extreme view of divorce and re-marriage actually suggested that he should not marry her as she may not be suitable for him, implying that he could marry a more suitable person later. However they would say a re-married person should leave their current spouse and children. What hypocrisy!

Last year or so when there was a heated thread on divorce, Kathleen Naylor, pm’d me (she has an account on here or did) and asked me to read her testimony. I did and I’m sorry, but just saying that it’s just another form of legalism to put God’s people BACK into slavery.

Foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you not to obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was openly set forth among you as crucified? (Galatians 3.1 - WEB)

Paul was telling the Galatians that they lost sight of the cross and its significance AND the result of losing sight of the cross was that they had went BACK INTO legalism and carnality.

Rules, rules, rules are legalism. “The Baptist has one set of rules, the Pentecostal’s another, the Catholics yet another... THE FACT YOU DON’T SMOKE OR DRINK (OR stopped having intimate relations with your spouse) DOESN’T MAKE YOU RIGHTEOUS WITH GOD. There’s only ONE way to be righteous with God and that is by FAITH.”
~ (From Derek Prince’s sermon, “Witchcraft Obscures the Cross”).

Hebrews 11:6 “But without faith it is impossible to please him...” The word doesn’t say that it’s difficult to please Him; it says that IT’S IMPOSSIBLE to please Him without faith.

It’s not stopping all martial relations with your remarried spouse that pleases Him; it’s FAITH that pleases Him. It’s sad that legally married Christian’s are falling for this form of bondage all because they don’t know they Scriptures when these people come knocking on their door “in love” with this info.

“You do err, BECAUSE YOU KNOW NEITHER THE SCRIPTURES NOR THE POWER OF GOD. “
Matthew 22.29-33

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Romans 1:16

Lisa

I do not read where Paul, when faced with a brother who would not eat meat, addressed "You legalist, you have left off of grace and are in bongage to works!" He made the issue personal to himself, as far as I can tell - "I will never eat meat again!!" Just a thought.

David

Heydave,

This holds the same type of logic as someone who steals my car gets caught but the police and court sends BOTH OF US TO PRISON!

Makes absolutely no sense. Now I know where the atheists got this bumper sticker, “Jesus save me from your followers.”

God help us all.
Lisa

Please see the "Ante-Nicene Fathers" volumes for yourself to see what they believed about divorce, remarriage, etc.

One of the major mistakes of our modern Christianity, is that we have tried to re-invent the wheel...

Lisa

Are the Ante-Nicene Fathers in my King James Bible?

First off, I want to apologize... this statement soooo sounds like those bumper stickers that say, "If it ain't KJ, it ain't Bible!" I am not one of those people!

I personally like KJV b/c I grew up with it and I'm used to it! But I'm also all for reading what you can understand; you will get no argument from me there! Whew!

What I meant by the above quote is are any of the ante-nicene fathers in my Bible (what-ever version!!!)?

Also, do you think it's a conspiracy that they aren't in my Bible?

Do you read the ante-nicene fathers more than you read the Bible?

God bless,
Lisa

Some understand faith to mean “ Jesus died on the cross for all my sin”. May I suggest that James in the book of James is saying that this kind of faith is no different from the faith of Demons.

The Demons believe there one God who created heaven and earth. He is the only God. Also The Harlot Rahab believed there is one and only God who created heaven and earth. James then goes on to say that Rahab’s faith was a saving faith while the Demon’s faith is not a saving faith. What is the difference then between the Demon’s faith and Rahab’s faith?

Here is the difference. When Rahab believed in God. She laid her life on the line. If she was caught hosting the spies, she would have been killed for treason.

It seems that many of those who say they are followers of Christ have a kind of Faith that is no better than the Demon’s faith. In fact, it is much worse, for they neither fear not tremble as the Demons at least do.

Their faith consists of believing that Jesus died on the cross for their sin, but when that same Jesus put any requirements on them, that is when they cry “ Legalism,… Law,…Salvation by works,…

The Book of Galatians, when taken within the context. First, let me say something about context. You know how in real state they say Location- -Location--Location.
Also in the Bible interpretation the cry must be Context--Context--Context.

Many 0ccult and weird denominations have taken place from the beginning of time until now because they have not adhered to that principle. Understanding context helps to understand the intent of the author.

Back to the book of Galatians.
The book was written to the believers at Galatia who were pressured by the Jews to be circumcised. Paul had nothing against circumcision for he himself had Timothy circumcised . Now, if circumcision was in itself a sin, Paul would never have asked Timothy to do it. Further more, circumcision reflected a most beautiful reality of the circumcision of the heart or to have a heart sensitive to God’s commands. God would have all His people be circumcised if that was the outer sign of the inner reality of their heart.

So, why did the Apostle vehemently was opposed to circumcision ?
He opposed it for the loss of it’s original significance.
In the beginning God chose a people starting with Abraham who were justified by faith and gave them the sign of circumcision to reflect that inner reality . ( Please notice that the faith of Abraham was the same kind of faith Rahab possessed . The story of Abraham begins in Genesis 12. The very first verse begins with a command from God to Abraham.
Gen12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

Gen 12:2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

Gen 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Immediately after God is finished speaking we read Abraham’s response.
Gen 12:4 So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him;…

Abraham’s faith was tried and proven in many ways even after that. When God gave him a promise that out of his dead body and Sara’s dead body he will have a son, Abraham believed God and was counted to him for righteousness.

Abraham then received the sign of circumcision as an outward sign to show the nations around them that they are God’s people.
God’s has nothing against the law for the law comes from God and reflects His nature and attributes. The law of God is just, holy and good just as God is just, holy and good.

Why then did the law, and especially the ceremonial aspect of it became an obomination in God’ sight? We read in Isaiah 66:3

But whoever sacrifices a bull
is like one who kills a man,
and whoever offers a lamb,
like one who breaks a dog's neck;
whoever makes a grain offering
is like one who presents pig's blood,
and whoever burns memorial incense,
like one who worships an idol.
They have chosen their own ways,
and their souls delight in their abominations;

The answer is as the nature of the the wicked to focus of the outward action, and neglects the inward reality. It is much easier to offer a lamb than to offer one’self as a living sacrifice. It is much easier to give something to the poor out of one’s abundance that to give the last two mites and trust God for provision. And it is much easier to give God lip service than to give Him the heart.
That is why circumcision was an abomination in the sight of God and His spokesman the Apostle.

The believers of Galacia were persecuted for not by the Jews for not getting circumcised and were starting to compromise to avoid persecution.

It would be like some one who avoids talking about Christ to his classmates and gives into peer pressure to avoid redicule, or a Chinese Christian who denies that he knows Christ to avoid imprisonment.

Now the big question.

If I discover that I was living in sin but God in His grace has been long suffering with me not willing that I would perish, should I continue in that sin now that I know better?

If I obey God when He reveals His will to me. I that faith or abominable works?
The answer is for you to decide…

Blessings,

UntoBabes wrote:
If I obey God when He reveals His will to me. I that faith or abominable works?
The answer is for you to decide…

The same thing is happening on this thread that happened in Galatia. There are people who have been set free by the grace of God that visit SI but someone (you and others) are coming into the fold disguised as sheep trying to get them to take their eyes off the Cross and look unto themselves for deliverance only to put them into bondage – right where you are.

And just like the Galatians, they’ve seen and experienced the Spirit of God, the miracles and the gifts (verse 5) and perhaps not firmly planted in the Word of God and along come folk like you and others trying to speak vain words into their ears that don’t profit OR deliver. (1 Samuel 12.21)

You have taken your eyes off the cross and are looking to what you can do IN YOUR FLESH to make you holy and there is nothing and you can’t see it because you are bewitched.

No matter how much you type out 'context, context, context' is going to change the fact that it's only FAITH that pleases the Lord... period.

Hello Lysa!

Thanks for your comments, and no problem with the KJV reference :) I understood what you meant.

I definitely understand what you are saying about the Ante-Niecene Fathers, and no, i don't read them more than my Bible.

I have found it a great reference when studying, because they lived in those times, understood all the cultural aspects of the times and places where the scriptures were written, and wrote and spoke the language.

When we take the Bible and look at it with our culture, our viewpoints, and our understanding, and interpret it from there, we can come up with some pretty twisted ideas, as we have seen in the past, and present with false teachers.

But the point that i wanted to make is that many here are looking at the scriptures in their own understanding, and often it is skewed by their own ideas, interpretations, etc.

Lots of people have been saying on this thread that you can't just follow the Bible, you have to follow the Spirit; i say amen to that, but it is a fact that Jesus said His words were "Spirit and... Life" (John 6:63).

When we follow, by faith, the things that are clearly stated in the Word of God, trusting God for grace to do them, that is not walking in the flesh; it is obedience, which is definitely emphasized, over and over in Jesus' teachings. Obedience to God.

If we only follow what we feel is the "Spirit" and never read our Bibles, in all honesty, how close to the truth would we be in the end? How much of our own selfish motives would tint our walk? Much more than we would like to admit.

You had asked if the Ante-Nicene Fathers were in your Bible... No, they are not.

But neither are your words, and thoughts on this subject. The question is, what does the Word of God clearly say.

I appreciate everyone's thoughts, but so far, there has been much heat here, and lots of opinions, etc. That's ok, in the correct place, but lots of people have made is sound as if these are absolutes, and they are not.

With remarriage, Jesus clearly said in Matthew 19:9 that someone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

That to me sounds very clear.

And we know that no adulterer will enter into heaven (1 Corinthians 6:9-10)

Are there absolutes, or are there not? When we start saying, "Hey if the Spirit revealed this to you, go for it" regardless of what the Word of God says, we must confess that we are either denying that there are absolutes, or that there are none.

I'm not sure if you belief that or not, so please don't take it as a slam. I'm just making a point; when one says he/she is being led by the Spirit, and it is not in line with the Word of God, they are being deceived.

And just like the Galatians, they’ve seen and experienced the Spirit of God, the miracles and the gifts (verse 5) and perhaps not firmly planted in the Word of God and along come folk like you and others trying to speak vain words into their ears that don’t profit OR deliver. (1 Samuel 12.21)

You have taken your eyes off the cross and are looking to what you can do IN YOUR FLESH to make you holy and there is nothing and you can’t see it because you are bewitched.

As far as being delivered, i have been delivered, not from the will of God (His law) but i have been delivered from sin, and have been freed to serve my Lord Jesus with all that is in me... when i gave my life to Jesus, i truly started living...

And just like the Galatians, they’ve seen and experienced the Spirit of God, the miracles and the gifts (verse 5) and perhaps not firmly planted in the Word of God and along come folk like you and others trying to speak vain words into their ears that don’t profit OR deliver. (1 Samuel 12.21)

You have taken your eyes off the cross and are looking to what you can do IN YOUR FLESH to make you holy and there is nothing and you can’t see it because you are bewitched.

As far as being delivered, i have been delivered, not from the will of God (His law) but i have been delivered from sin, and have been freed to serve my Lord Jesus with all that is in me... when i gave my life to Jesus, i truly started living...
------------------------------
Brother,

This was NOT directed at you at all!! Please note the subject line is to "UntoBabes."

Lots of people have been saying on this thread that you can't just follow the Bible, you have to follow the Spirit;

Anyway, God bless you,
Lisa

I can see how you could interpret that scripture and others in that way, but the fact that the early church Christians didn't interpret it as that

You have proof that they didn't interpret that way? I mean come on brother, were you there?

My proof?

Read what they wrote... :) I think they could speak for themselves :)

You put these people way up there as if the mind of man was far different in those days than today, it's still the same today as it was then. There was no universal christian utopia of christian unity and correct thinking in those days, they interpreted the word the same way we interpret it, either by our own fanciful intellect or by hearing the Spirit of God. The same Holy Ghost then is the same one I got.

God has not changed, but many claiming to have His Spirit have tried to change what He meant... Not a slam, i'm just saying...

Quote:

"If you want to live by what the bible says, Good Luck! The Jews tried, and even the early Church tried to do a little mixing of the two and they couldn't. Only one man was able to and that was Jesus and it cost Him His life because of it."

Thin ice, brother Snuf... I hope you speak of the Law of Moses (2 Corinthians 3). :)

Consider these words of a pillar in that same early church:

And hereby we do know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
He that saith, "I know Him," and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in Him.
But whoso keepeth His word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in Him.
He that saith he abideth in Him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
(1 John 2:3-6)

You say we oughtn't live by the written Word. I hope this was a slip of the lip! Consider Hebrews 1:2, "[God] hath spoken unto us by His Son..."

Jesus has already very clearly outlined what our lives in Him should look like in Matthew chapters 5-7 and other places. These commands outline to us what we can and should be as born-again followers of Jesus. He gave many consequences in the same passage for not living this way. Why?

We must all beware of the idea that the commands of Jesus are there "just 'cuz." "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" (2 Timothy 3:16). Let us take heed then.

The Son has spoken to us clearly - already!

If we have truly experienced the new birth, it will lead to a dramatic change in our life and outlook (2 Corinthians 5:17), including actions (as you alluded to above). This is not by our "willpower," it is by the Spirit's power in us. We must yield to His work in us, though. This is yielding our members as servants of righteousness (Romans 6:14-23 et cetera). There is a CHOICE involved! To do anything less is to live for the flesh.

Beware of error that we don't or can't "choose". It is blasphemy. We must choose to receive Jesus, and choose to obey. I know, this is dancing dangerously close to the ever-present Cal/Arm dispute, but hear me out. :)

This does not mean that we "deserve" anything. We are merely yielding to God's command to believe! In each case, His power is there and He does the heart-changing (John 1:12, et cetera). It has nothing whatsoever to do with "merit". Those that live this way will testify that this is the only true rest they have ever found (Hebrews 4:1-10).

Again brethren, the Son HAS spoken to us! He HAS shown us the way to live! Let us not reject His words, for we will be judged by them (John 12:48). This is how God has chosen to do it... why should we try to explain it away?

"If the common sense makes sense, all other sense is nonsense." Why would God warn us and instruct us and command us clearly, in so many things, by the very mouth of Jesus, if they were not to be obeyed? The very fact that there are CONSEQUENCES implies that there is a CHOICE to be made... whether to obey and yield, or to rebel and reject.

Can we not then strive in God's grace to press onward (Philippians 3:14)? He has promised to be with us (Matthew 28:20), so let's go for it (Hebrews 4:11-16)!

Again, I probably run the risk of being accused of legalism... but this life of faith does involve decisions, and hard ones at times. Yieldedness is the only way to revival and true holiness. I want to be holy by Jesus' blood, for "without holiness no man shall see the Lord."

"If you have the Holy Spirit, you will have holy actions."
(Leonard Ravenhill)

I think if we're honest with ourselves, we have all found this matter of choosing to be true. I want to choose based on what Jesus has shown me, in His unchanging, eternal Word. Not my own subjective, biased and earthly mind.

I have objectively considered all of these things we've discussed, and put them through the rigorous test of the Scripture myself. This is what I live by. It has not been spoon-fed to me by "some preacher or elder somewhere."

I am not "bewitched", friends. Casting such accusations around shows a possible lack of contextual knowledge, and "grasping at straws" to controvert the plain words of Jesus that we will be judged by.

Oh, we must be so careful what accusations we level at our fellow-believers!

Let us examine concerning what is past, and let us take care for the time to come, that what we write or print with regard to our brethren be expressed in such language as may dare appear and be read by the light of the last conflagration, and the splendor of the tribunal of our returning Lord.
(Isaac Watts)

Come soon, Lord Jesus!

This was NOT directed at you at all!!

Thanks for pointing this out... :)

Lots of people have been saying on this thread that you can't just follow the Bible, you have to follow the Spirit;

I've tried to read the whole thread but was this actually verbatim... to not follow the Bible? I don't remember reading that exactly. I know that I do not believe that.

I was referring to snufalopogus' statement:

Now I am going to make a bold statement that many will not accept, but that's ok. God doesn't want us to obey the written letter. He wants us to obey the Spirit. If we obey the written letter, we are asking for trouble. There is no faith in that, faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen. This was the work of God through the man Jesus. Jesus took the instructions from His father by faith and acted it out and God came through every time.

If you want to live by what the bible says, Good Luck! The Jews tried, and even the early Church tried to do a little mixing of the two and they couldn't. Only one man was able to and that was Jesus and it cost Him His life because of it.

I definitely know that we can only be righteous through the blood of Jesus, but that does not negate the need to follow the Word of God... i was just wanting to make that point, sorry that i didn't make the direct quote, and didn't make myself clear...

Peace and God's blessings be with you,
-nathan

Lysa said:

quote

I have no problem with you obeying what you think God reveals to you; it’s when you start teaching this as the doctrine of Christ on this website that I suddenly have a problem with you!

I am sorry, you must be mistaken.
I am not the one posted this thread or the one the story is about, nor do I have any particular interest in the topic of Divorce/re-marriage. My interest lies in the characterestic of saving faith.

Snuf,

I disagree with you, Demons do ahve faith. In the English language the words faith, and believe look so different from one another. But in the Greek the word faith (Pistis), and the word believe (Pisteuo), have the same root word. pisteuo, meaning to believe, or to have faith is the verb form of pistis.

So the question is: What does the faith of Demons consist of? Or what do demons believe?

(1) Demonds believe that God is one.
(2) Demons believe that Jesus is the Son of God, or believe in His diety

Matt 8:29
What do you want with us, Son of God?" they shouted. "Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?"

(3) Demons believe that they are sinners. Because they know that there only one God, consequently they believe that they are in rebellion against Him.

(4) Demons believe that they are worthy of judgment.
(5) Demons believe that Christ is the one that will judge them.

Not only do Demons believe all that, but they greatly fear God.

The Demons have a kind of faith the Apostle James calls Dead faith.
He then concludes that any faith that does not produce obedience and surrender to the sovereign rule of God is no better than the faith of the Devils. In fact, the Devils faith is most often better than the faith of man, because it is accompanied by fear for God that some people do not have.

Sorry... I meant to say (HAVE)

To all who have asked me questions about some of the statements i've made in this thread, i wanted to point you to an ebook that i think could answer your questions better than me... i didn't write it, but the author is much better than me when it comes to writing it all out... :)

http://www.wisereaction.org/ebooks/mdr_taylor.pdf

Please don't comment anything on it until you've read it through in its entirety; it will only cause confusion and wasted time if you just skim over it; maybe even re-read it once or twice. It's a very good read.

I'm not planning on following this thread any more because it seems to me nobody is going anywhere with their positions, and i'd rather not get caught up in wrangling with someone.

I know myself too well, and i know i can get contentious and argumentative far to easily...

Thanks everyone who's been posting with me, for being patient and giving me grace :)

Have a blessed evening, and keep on looking to Jesus, the author and finisher of The Faith!!

-nathan

I'm posting this question(see below)again,as it seems it may have gone unnoticed by all the posters on this thread.

On this thread I've read such words as,"Divorce is sin", and "Remarriage is the issue". Yet,thus far none have taken task with my question. Much hinges upon my question,and if it cannot be honestly answered then any further discussion would be without definition and consequently unprofitable. Conclusive truth on the matter of MDR cannot be properly drawn until one has proper definition from the whole counsel of God's Word. As one has already posted,

"All Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,so that the man of God may be perfected, being fully furnished for every good work.(2 Tim. 3:16,17)

It ought to be noted that as Paul wrote this to Timothy he had what we'd call the "Old Testament" specifically in mind. Such is evident to the unbiased reader from what goes before in verse 15 where Paul refers to the "Sacred Scriptures","Holy Writings" or "Holy Scriptures", depending on what English version you're reading.

Here is my Question:

According to the Scriptures and the whole counsel of God from Genesis to Revelation, what is a lawful divorce and what does it do?

Actually there are two question in one.

Please answer *IF* able(rightly dividing the Word of Truth).

Please study the question carefully before answering,and then answer the question as it is set forth.

Thanks in advance for your serious consideration of the above.

"Grace be with all them who love our Lord Jesus the Messiah without corruptness. Amen." Eph. 6:24

hi,i am disqualified from answering the main and the most important question on divorce but i certainly know what faith is and is not...a word from God,received,believed and obeyed is faith and demons do not have any.jimp

hi, a thought occurred in my peabrain...this couple did not divorce but were divorced by their adulteress exes... what can you do with that?jimp

UntoBabes wrote:

I am sorry, you must be mistaken.
I am not the one posted this thread or the one the story is about, nor do I have any particular interest in the topic of Divorce/re-marriage. My interest lies in the characterestic of saving faith..

God bless us all as we try to hash this out Biblically!!

Lisa

Hi,

I have rarely come to SI recently. The matter of divorce and remarriage has always been clear to me and especially after i married. With good conscience i can only approve what the Lord and the apostles have said and consented about marriage.

I want to speak from personal experience, that i have been seperated for a while and the Lord has made it clear to me that divorce is sin and i have no reason for divorce since both of us have been faithfull to marriage. Thanks God that my wife does not want divorce and i hope and pray for a real reunion and im working in my marriage.

In our christian superficial culture we dont have room for suffering. We want the easy way out, and the blesings too. I considered before remarriage but i could not find even one verse fron NT that supports remariage while ur spouse is still living and also when there is no adultery in marriage, divorce is not biblical at all.Also i do love indeed my wife and she always will be the one i want to be with.

At the same time i dont support the other extreme view that holds to perpetual sin of adultery after remarriage, as if the blood of the Lord will not cover for that sin after the person has truly repented. Remariage after divorcing the first wife is sin but its not the unpardonable sin. Whoever believes that unfortunatly does not believe that Jesus has the power to forgive and restore a belioever to a right relationship with the Lord while he is still married to his second wife.

The only unpardonable sin is the blesphemy against the Holy Ghost, if adultery was unpardonable in the second marriage then the Lord would have made it clear for us in the Scriptures.

Personally if my wife choses divorce and move ahead in her life without me ill not remarry as its clear to my conscience that this is sin, but i know that its not unforgivable.

Blessings,

Redi

snuf,

I am not saying that the Devils have better faith than man in general, but better faith that some men, particularly the men Jamnes was addressing in his epistle.
That faith which James calles dead faith does not save any one, men or Devils.
James was addressing two kinds of faith, one accompanied with works of righteouness and the other is mere feeling in the heart.

To prove his point, he uses the illustration of some one who sees his brother naked and hungry and says to them: brother, I feel for you. Go, be warmed and filled, but not providing the necassary means to have his brother warmed and filled.

This principle that James speaks of goes beyond the issue of Chritian charity to address obedience in general to God's revealed will.

He uses Abraham( the father of faith), and Rahab. What is amazing is the broadness of God's love to recieve any one, whosoever wills, granted that they would show obedience unto death from that point on.

To: Mennonites,Anabaptists & others of like mind on the MDR issue,

FYI:

In the book 'The Complete Writings of Menno Simons',
there are several references to Menno's position on
divorce and remarriage, each of them testifying
clearly his understanding of the scriptures there noted:

"These two, one husband and one wife, are one flesh
and can not be separated from each other to marry
again otherwise than for adultery, as the Lord says.
Matt. 5:19; Mark 10; Luke 16. This is our real
position, doctrine, and practice concerning marriage,
as we here confess with the holy Scriptures. By the
grace of God it will ever remain the position of all
pious souls, let them lie and slander as they like.
We know and confess truly that it is the express
ordinance, command, intent, and unchangeable plain
word of Christ." (trans. J.C.Wenger, The Complete
Works of Menno Simon (Scottdale, Pa., Herald Press,
1984), p.561

"We know too that the bond of undefiled, honorable
matrimony is so firm and fast in the kingdom and
government of Christ, that no man may leave his wife,
nor a wife her husband, and marry another (understand
rightly what Christ says), except it be for adultery."
(trans. J.C.Wenger, The Complete Works of Menno Simon
(Scottdale, Pa., Herald Press, 1984), p.970
(parenthesis in original)

"We acknowledge, teach, and assent to no other
marriage than that which Christ and His apostles
publicly and plainly taught in the New Testament,
namely, of one man and one woman (Matt. 19:4), and
that they may not be divorced except in case of
adultery (Matt. 5:32); for the two are one flesh, but
if the unbelieving one depart, a sister or brother is
not under bondage in that case. 1 Cor. 7:15" (trans.
J.C.Wenger, The Complete Works of Menno Simon
(Scottdale, Pa., Herald Press, 1984),p.200

"4. The true Apostolic Excommunication has no respect
to persons. Undoubtedly, it is well known to us all,
dear brethren, that it is so strongly and earnestly
commanded in the Scriptures, nay, it is one of the
chief commands, that we are to honor father and
mother, and that all had to die according to the law
of Moses, who cursed and disobeyed them. And also,
that the bond of undefiled, honorable matrimony is so
unchangeably bound in the kingdom and government of
Christ, that neither a man nor woman can forsake one
the other, and take another, understand rightly what
Christ says, except it be for fornication, Matt..
19:9. And Paul also holds the same doctrine, that they
shall be bound to each other, and that they are to
live in union; that the man has not power over his own
body, nor the woman over hers, 1 Cor. 7:4.

Both these rules, the first in relation to parents,
and the second in relation to wedlock, stand fast and
unbroken, and can never be altered or infringed by any
man, so long as we can, in God and with God, in a good
conscience, observe and keep them, as the
aforementioned rules require, with out transgressing
the holy word; but if this cannot be done thus, the
spiritual must not, in that case, yield to the carnal,
but the carnal must yield to the spiritual; this is
incontrovertibly true." (THE COMPLETE WORKS OF
MENNO SIMON,TRANSLATED FROM THE ORIGINAL DUTCH OR
HOLLAND Published in 1871 by John F. Funk and Brother,
Elkhart, Indiana Published in 1983 by Pathway
Publishers Aylmer, Ontario and Lagrange, Indiana)Book
1 p.247,248.

Here is the testimony of the monumental work, 'Martyrs
Mirror', by Thieleman J. van Braght, written in 1660.
In article 25 of a 'Confession of Faith, according to
the Holy Word of God', written about the year 1600 is
this quote in reference to what Christ was doing by
His words;

"...re-establishing marriage between one man and one
woman, and inseparably and firmly binding the bond of
matrimony , that they might not, on any account,
separate and marry another, except in case of adultery
or death." (T. J. van Braght, Martyrs Mirror
(Scottdale, Pa., Herald Press, 1951), p. 401.

UntoBabes,
I in err addressed my post to you; which I should not have done! Please forgive me, I humbly apologize.
Lisa

About this thread....

We are going to talk about a Jewish bill of divorcement. Since the Bible is Jewish, it’s probably a good idea that this is where we should go to understand what is being said in the Bible.

America’s religion has totally disregarded the history of why Jesus says what he does (Jewish history) and this might be hard for a lot of you to understand but Jesus WAS Jewish, not Baptist (or any other denomination).

A ‘Get’ is a Jewish divorce and it is NOT for the man b/c like Linn said, they can have as many wives as they want: it is for the woman and the couple’s children. If a woman does not receive a ‘get,’ she can never remarry (without being an adulterer) and if they had any children, they will be considered born out of wedlock (illegitimate).

So we see that the sin is NOT in her remarrying, the sin is her living an adulterous life withOUT a bill of divorcement while her husband is remarried somewhere not caring that she has no one to care for her.

This truly shows the hard-heartedness of a man, when he could “put away” his wife (and children) KNOWING that there would literally be none to care for her. “Agunah” is a huge problem today in the Jewish culture and many husbands have and are abandoning their wives by not giving them a ‘get.’

To me, it is so clear how the letter KILLS b/c Christians in America throw the word of their denominations around like they know what it means thereby killing the spirit of innocent women and driving them to do stupid stuff like the article states this thread. (By that I mean, if you have a wife - enjoy her! If you have a husband - enjoy him in the name of the Jesus!! I don't know how clearer it can get!)

Here is where most of you do err by not knowing the Scriptures or the power of God b/c people are being put INTO bondage through ignorance of the Scriptures and the power of God unto salvation.

(edit: forgot these:)

According to Jewish law, a marriage is not dissolved until a bill of divorce, get, is exchanged between husband and wife.

Regardless of one's personal convictions or practices, or one's affiliation, obtaining a “get” is important. This simple procedure does more than just assure the couple that they will be free to remarry should they so desire. It also prevents a tragic problem; a child born to a Jewish woman whose previous marriage did not terminate with a get may be considered illegitimate. Any Jew, whether observant or non¬observant, needs to share in the concern for Jewish unity and in providing their children with a clean slate for the future.

A couple who has had a legally Jewish divorce are forbidden from remarrying each other. Both men and women are permitted to remarry after a divorce...

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/Divorce.html

Not strictly a case of "desertion" but similar to it is the rarer case of a childless widow who, according to halakhah, requires halitzah (release) from her husband's brother before she can remarry. [Biblical law requires her brother-in-law to marry her to perpetuate the dead husband's "name" by providing his wife with a child. The ceremony of halitzah releases the widow from this obligation.] This situation has also served as an occasion for extortion.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/agunot1.html

However, the problem of the agunah is a serious one, and it is wise to protect yourself against such a situation.

Being an agunah can create real hardship and sorrow for a woman, her children, and for all her friends and family. As an agunah, she is unable to re-marry and have full control over her own life decisions. For an Orthodox woman, the inability to re-marry and perhaps have children can make her feel as if she has lost her identity, which may be entirely as a wife and mother.

http://www.womenslaw.org/laws_state_type.php?id=12586&state_code=RL&lang=en

In this thread I posted this following question twice:

According to the Scriptures and the whole counsel of God from Genesis to Revelation, what is a lawful divorce and what does it do?

Not one person even attempted to answer,*except* one person,whose answer follows.

"Since we follow Christ, I will only answer from the New Testament. However, I might have time later to give a fuller answer if it seems profitable.

What is a lawful divorce? It seems that the Lord allowed for divorce in the case of fornication, however that does not mean that you have to divorce and I believe it is pleasing to the Lord if the couple does not divorce.

What does it do? One is no longer under bondage to that person, yet they are still bound to them till death parts them. The only grounds for a second marriage given in the New Testament is the death of a spouse, because only death can separate a covenant marriage."

You figure!

Many cringe at the thought of forced celibacy in the case of the vow a Roman Catholic priest must take as one qualification the order demands. And yes,he does so voluntarily. Yet he may also resign from the priesthood.

But the no remarriage under any circumstances(except the death of the first spouse)advocates who claim a sort of mystic-al indissolubility of marriage,place a christian man or woman at the mercy of another sinner(their first spouse),by the unlawful abuse of Scripture,binding their conscience and causing them to live a life of forced celibacy.

What grace is this? Truly,it is not the Grace of God in God's Gospel of Grace.

I say to you,repent of your wickednesses and such thoughts which accompany them.

Blessed be God.

Redi wrote:

the Lord has made it clear to me that divorce is sin

Just for clarification, unless you mean the Lord spoke to you particularly that divorce would be sin in your case, there is not any Scripture against divorce, in the sense of it being sin. Yes, there are many Scriptures that can be used to admonish Christians to stay married, as 1 Cor 7, but all divorce is not sin. It is remarriage that is sin (adultery). I suppose breaking the covenant of marriage (divorce) without a Biblical reason could be viewed as sin, and probably would be, but I am not aware the Scriptures explicitly teach this (correct me if I am mistaken). Again, Jesus speaks only of not being able to remarry while the original spouse is still living.

Alive-to-God said:

Are you speaking of divorce between Christians, where there has been no betrayal of wedlock... they simply fell out badly, and decided to call it a day on their marriage?

Yes. I am not recommending divorce and do not believe God does either. Mature Christians I do believe can always find a way to stay together in Christ, even if the circumstances or personalities are not ideal. There is always a way where "God will work all things for good". Still, as you say, I do not believe either separation or divorce, if it seems to be necessary, are sin, as long as the person remains celibate. There can be no marriage or lawful union while a former spouse remains alive. It is a temptation in such cases, I suppose, to wish for the death of the other, but this is evil, surely a sin, and must be rejected also for the good thoughts and blessings that God would have for the other. I believe it is good, through prayer and faith, for estranged couples to also find a way to reunite. I know stories of Christians who have divorced and remarried years later. God is a great healer, and time is one of his balms.