Predestination and Free will

Oh no, not again! This subject has been hashed and rehashed so many times it's just not worth the bytes.

Hi bro_willy,

I haven't finished reading your opening post. I'm stopping to comment on this statement.

Because of this there is a hatred for God and His righteousness in his heart(Rom 1:30).

Then v 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible [attributes] are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify [Him] as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

Then v 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;

Now, I'm not saying some people don't have to repent, but I AM saying that some people's hearts are so tender towards the truth when they see it, that they immediately embrace it - unlike the group which Paul is describing in the second half of Rom 1, who, KNOWING GOD, do not LIKE to retain the knowledge of Him in their decision-making. This choice leads them into deception and eventually God actively gives them over to do whatever they like.

This hatred of God and love for sin is what prevents men from being able to or even desiring to please God (John 3:19,20-Gen. 37:4).

Genesis 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Genesis 17:1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, "I [am] Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless.

Romans 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."

John 1:35 Again, the next day, John stood with two of his disciples. 36 And looking at Jesus as He walked, he said, "Behold the Lamb of God!" 37 The two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus. 38 Then Jesus turned, and seeing them following, said to them, "What do you seek?" They said to Him, "Rabbi" (which is to say, when translated, Teacher), "where are You staying?" 39 He said to them, "Come and see." They came and saw where He was staying, and remained with Him that day (now it was about the tenth hour). 40 One of the two who heard John [speak,] and followed Him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother. 41 He first found his own brother Simon, and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which is translated, the Christ). 42 And he brought him to Jesus.

43 The following day Jesus wanted to go to Galilee, and He found Philip and said to him, "Follow Me." 44 Now Philip was from Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter. 45 Philip found Nathanael and said to him, "We have found Him of whom Moses in the law, and also the prophets, wrote -- Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph." 46 And Nathanael said to him, "Can anything good come out of Nazareth?" Philip said to him, "Come and see." 47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming toward Him, and said of him, "Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom is no deceit!" 48 Nathanael said to Him, "How do You know me?" Jesus answered and said to him, "Before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you." 49 Nathanael answered and said to Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God! You are the King of Israel!" 50 Jesus answered and said to him, "Because I said to you, 'I saw you under the fig tree,' do you believe? You will see greater things than these." 51 And He said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, hereafter you shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of Man."

I put it to you, that 'the will' is not an entity separate from the person. Regarding salvation, God's will - His desire (will) - is that men should be saved. In that sense, all are predestined (before they were born, God knew He wanted to save them) to salvation.

Regarding man's will, his desires are made manifest when he hears the gospel and faith rises in his heart towards receiving from God the solution to the barrier of sin.

If he desires to continue in sin, he rejects the faith which rises as he hears the gospel, thus making his true heart known to God and men (as those in Rom 1), that he rejects salvation.

Of course, many of us struggle with the dilemma of how to have a relationship with God, while not entirely giving up sin. A lot of unhelpful rhetoric is spoken around these issues, which don't acknowledge that God can see each heart, and He knows how much movement a person is making towards Him, even if his fellow man cannot see anything positive. Likewise, God knows who is just keeping time with the music, while they are not in the least interested in a relationship with Him - but, they look good in public.

bro_willy, I will try to save you some pain here. From what I understand, this topic is not allowable to discuss on this forum, due to much contention it has created in the past. BTW, although I am not a TULIP, I thought your post was good in many areas.

I guess I didn't have to post it on here, but I was just trying to sort some things out in my mind and was hoping for some constructive feedback. I don't mean to start any sort of debates or arguments I would just appreciate some biblical feedback.

Never attempted to wrestle this one to the ground.

How about some food for thought...
which Rainman will appreciate as this was a turning point between us towards getting us both pointed in the right direction again.

We are commanded (with an imperative, not an 'if') to PRAY FOR ALL MEN.

Why we sheeple can't leave it at this is a this that our Creator has provided as part of the equiptment to the mechanisms of humanity: curiousity.

i beg to differ regarding God not telling how he hardens peoples hearts. Read Romans 1.16 - 2.11 for starters. The key to not having a hardened heart is in verse 16. Verses 18 - 2.5 spell out the explicit details.

Note that this is a result of abandoning God's truth in righteousness: the gospel of Jesus Christ (vv. 16-17).

Here's the kicker though. When men turn away from God's revelation of righteousness in Jesus Christ, according to man's abandonment of God, we see three phases here of God likewise abandoning man. That is the process of hardenening, ultimately unto 'reprobation' (the inability to discern and distinguish between right and wrong).

God created humanity to be able to choose for himself, and according to how we respond to His 'revelation to us' we walk closer to or further from truth, and ultimately God.

God responds to us according to how we respond to Him ... and this is not neccesarily an outward action so much as an inward condition. (See: II Sam. 22.26-32)

God is like a chess master. We can make any move we want, but he has the game all figured out before we ever employ movement.

There's alot more to it than these few things mentioned, but if we are to begin with a proper foundation, we have to look at things from God's perspective already revealed.

It may sound like i'm hedging, but there are some things that have to be understood about our own selves first before we can even hope to get a clear perspective.

i am neither TULIP nor Armenian.

If we just look at it from God's perspective about human nature, namely ourselves first, it really is so much simpler than all the theologics.

God Bless YOU in your pursuit of Him
irregardless of what men might
think, say, or do,

gregg

p.s. Start with Romans and II Samuel, and we can go from there.

That's cute Jim, I like that.

Christ’s death is enough to save all men, but only savingly effective for those whom the Father has chosen, for the rest, of their own choice, they do not receive it, and are damned in light of God's offer of mercy.

Above is completely unbiblical. Do you really want me to give you Biblical aspects on this ......... matter. It causes people to rebel against God and do we want to spread a message like that .........

No further explanation from me

All people are sinners upon whom the curse of the death penalty has been pronounced: “For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them. But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident… Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree), that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus” (Gal. 3:10-14).

Violators of the law are sinners. God’s judgement of eternal death has been imposed upon all sinners, regardless of whether they committed the sins under the law or without the law: “For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin” (Rom. 3:9). They have all been sentenced to death as “the soul who sins shall die” (Ezek. 18:4). This sentence also applies to the New Testament: “For the wages of sin is death” (Rom. 6:23). “For there is no partiality with God. For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law” (Rom. 2:11-12).

On which grounds will the Gentiles, who never heard God’s law, be judged? “For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things contained in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ” (Rom. 2:14-16). The Gentiles all have a God-given conscience which is a law to themselves. They know that it is wrong to kill, to steal, to curse, to lie, to commit adultery, etc.

It is important that we correctly understand the nature of the atonement so that, on the one hand, we do not forfeit the blessings of the Lord or, on the other hand, entertain wrong expectations. Because of the atonement worked out by Jesus Christ on the cross we have been acquitted of the death penalty, “being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth to be a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed” (Rom. 3:24-25).

That is a spiritual reconciliation with God – the penalty for our sins has been paid, and in Christ we are recreated to become new persons. By virtue of Christ’s death on the cross and His resurrection from the dead we can put on the new man. By virtue of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit we can be endued with divine power to live victoriously and bear fruit for the kingdom of God. But we will only receive the full redemption of our bodies at the Second Coming of Christ, when we will get immortal resurrection bodies (Phil. 3:20-21).

At present we still have mortal bodies which are subject to ageing, disease and death. We can also be tempted and sin. We are living in an imperfect world which also suffers as a result of the Fall, and eagerly waits for the revealing of the children of God (Rom. 8:19-23) when we will have glorified bodies, live under ideal circumstances and rule with Christ. That will be a time of abundance and peace, when Satan will be bound.

This situation does not prevail yet since we have to fight the good fight of faith (1 Tim. 6:12), enter the kingdom of G od through many tribulations (Acts 14:22), be prepared to be despised by the world (John 15:19) and to suffer for our faith (Phil. 1:29; Rom. 8:17). Diseases are one of the many reasons why believers also suffer. Some of them are healed and others not (2 Tim. 4:20). Even Paul suffered under disease and infirmities to keep him humble (2 Cor. 12:7-10).

Many healings occurred during the earthly ministry of the Lord Jesus, and also during the ministry of the apostles in the early Christian church. These healings served a specific purpose to confirm the Messiahship of Jesus (Luke 7:20-23; cf. Isa. 61:1-2) and to prove to an agnostic Jewish nation and to the agnostic Gentiles that Jesus who was proclaimed by the apostles is truly the Christ, the Son of the living God (Acts 5:12; Rom. 15:18-19; 2 Cor. 12:12). After this testimony was given in a powerful and visible way, the emphasis shifted to a life of faith which is not based on signs and wonders. “Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed” (John 20:29).

The Lord still heals people physically but we do not have a guarantee about this in the church dispensation. The human body is just as imperfect, battered and mortal as the natural creation. Together with the physical world we are eagerly awaiting the wholeness, perfection and immortality which the Lord has promised to us. “Even though our outward man is perishing, yet the inward man is being renewed day by day. For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, is working for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory… For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven” (2 Cor. 4:16-17; 5:2).

However, there are people who proclaim that the death of Jesus on the cross saves us in this dispensation from all possible curses, plagues and afflictions, including attacks by enemies, diseases and economic setbacks. All the curses mentioned in Deut. 28:15-68 are rightfully included in the curse which the Lord Jesus, according to Gal. 3:13, carried on our behalf on the cross, but the misleading assumption is made that all the blessings and prosperity are now to be enjoyed by us.

If that was the case, then curses such as pestilence among livestock, agricultural plagues, failure of crops, droughts, attacks by enemies, oppression by other nations, as well as diseases such consumption, inflammation, burning fever, tumours, scab, itching and blindness, should be completely averted from all believers (cf. Deut. 28). But that is not the case. Apart from the fact that these plagues and curses afflict unbelieving Jews and Gentiles, many believers among the nations also suffer heavily. In the case of believers, they are not cursed or punished by God but they suffer because they are living in a spiritually dark and sinful world which lies under the sway of the Wicked One (1 John 5:19). Many of them have died as martyrs for their faith, and for that reason they still wait for the wholeness and immortality which will be theirs when the Lord comes again to create all things new. “And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying; and there shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away” (Rev. 21:4). The new earth, in more than primeval beauty, in greater than Edenic bliss, shall be the abode of everlasting joy.

The preachers who now promise to Christians problem-free, disease-free and disaster-free living conditions are out of touch with the Bible and with the nature of the present dispensation in which we are living. They do not only give false hope to people, but question and weaken the faith of those who have not obtained the healing or economic relief for which they have prayed.

We cannot now demand conditions which will only prevail during the coming kingdom dispensation, as that would amount to instituting the kingdom here and now. That cannot be done as we are still strangers and sojourners in an evil world. In this world we will be hated and have tribulation (John 16:33).

Live in the full salvation which is offered to you because of the atoning death of Jesus on the cross. The penalty for your sins has been paid and eternal life has been given to you as a gift of grace. But be ever mindful of the fact that Satan walks about like a roaring lion with the specific aim of attacking Christians. Put on the whole armour of God that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

Thank the Lord for every blessing that you receive from His hand. But also learn to be content with every difficulty that may still prevail. God’s grace will be sufficient for you to cope with any trial or affliction. We are in the same situation as Paul, who was instructed by the Lord to stop praying about certain problems that he experienced. He had to learn from his trials not to exalt himself and to boast about his own excellence. He looked forward to his future hope in heaven. Although we have the knowledge and certainty of full salvation, we have not yet received every blessing that the Lord has promised to us. We still have to share in the blessing of the first resurrection (1 Cor. 15:51-54; 1 Thess. 4:16-18) when we will get imperishable resurrection bodies, as well as a heavenly home which the Lord Jesus is still preparing for us (John 14:1-3).

Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood.--Rev. 1:5

The great cause of all our blessings is the love of God. It was a love shown to the unworthy and unclean. What is it that the blood of Christ accomplishes in behalf of every believing soul? First, there is its efficacy Godward. It atones for the guilt of sin. It answers every claim of that righteous law which our transgressions had dishonored and assailed. It removes condemnation that that law pronounces over every soul that fails, as touching the law. The blood atones for the sinner, and places him not only in a position of freedom from guilt, but of actual acceptance (Rom. 5:9). Then there is the efficacy of the blood manward. It washes us from the sins of defilement. It sets us free from its tyranny. "Unto him that loveth us, and loosed us from our sin by his blood" (ASV). The blood of Christ emancipates us from the bondage and service of sin. If we would know this freedom we must claim by faith that which is already ours by God's gift in Christ.

Watchman7777,

The dispensation ideas you present are nowhere found in the scriptures and betray God's mercy through His Grace, namely Jesus Christ. He is the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world, not in some certain dispensation.

God does not respect a person because they have or have not done any certain act. It is an issue of the condition of a man's heart. AS we walk in believing God, He reveals Himself further to us.

God always has and ever will heal my body, even as those within my household; and even if He doesn't, He remains the only One that will ever be served here. This is seen as part of the foretaste of what is coming, and it is so sweet.

Healing and salvation from sin are very misunderstood.

There are many reasons we can find that people do not recieve either, however, ultimately it is a matter of will a person depend and rely ON GOD ALONE or not.

Those thinking they might or might not get healed have not recieved a revelation from God that HE IS our HEALER of all the ways we "miss the mark", i.e., sin, be that of a physical nature or not.

Ultimately, it is according to what one believes and does as to why we get the results we deal with in our lives. If we cannot be completely confident IN GOD ALONE to deliver, restore, and preserve whatever he promises in Holy Writ, there is a sin problem somewhere. It's called unbelief which leads to idolatry, and ultimately becoming reprobate.
(WE ALL are like this to a greater or lesser extent, yet as we reach in growth deeper into Jesus Christ, the True Vine, our outward circumstances change according to His consecrating us to Himself.)

Redemption was a one time act before the foundation of the world. Salvation is a perpetual walking into greater fulness of relationship with our Father in Jesus Christ.

You said that there were things stated in this thread to be totally unbiblical . . . and i'm thinking 'no kidding'. The bad part is you come and place personal opinions before and after scrpture and state them as fact. It's not that most of it is not true, because most of it is. It's just that, the little leaven introduced in it can ruin everything.

i am not saying i myself am not guilty of this, because often i am . . . and often realizing it a day late and a dollar short. What i TRY TO DO is speak only from God's revelation to me through experiences lived out.

Sincerely,
phaney

p.s. When you remember the death of Jesus, why do you eat the bread?

This matter of believing, which rbanks pointed up, is given fuller consideration by Oswald Chambers in the following excerpt from My Utmost for His Highest, 28th October.

JUSTIFICATION BY FAITH

"For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life." Romans 5:10

I am not saved by believing; I realize I am saved by believing. It is not repentance that saves me, repentance is the sign that I realize what God has done in Christ Jesus. The danger is to put the emphasis on the effect instead of on the cause. It is my obedience that puts me right with God, my consecration. Never! I am put right with God because prior to all, Christ died. When I turn to God and by belief accept what God reveals I can accept, instantly the stupendous Atonement of Jesus Christ rushes me into a right relationship with God; and by the supernatural miracle of God's grace I stand justified, not because I am sorry for my sin, not because I have repented, but because of what Jesus has done. The Spirit of God brings it with a breaking, all-over light, and I know, though I do not know how, that I am saved.

The salvation of God does not stand on human logic, it stands on the sacrificial Death of Jesus. We can be born again because of the Atonement of Our Lord. Sinful men and women can be changed into new creatures, not by their repentance or their belief, but by the marvellous work of God in Christ Jesus which is prior to all experience. The impregnable safety of justification and sanctification is God Himself. We have not to work out these things ourselves; they have been worked out by the Atonement. The supernatural becomes natural by the miracle of God; there is the realization of what Jesus Christ has already done - "It is finished."

Hi rainman,

Thx for clarification you offered.

and it is because he knew we would believe he called us

Yes, He knew who would believe. He also knows who won't believe. However, He keeps calling, and like the son who said he wouldn't go to the field to work, some 'disobedient sons' change their minds, and others are all talk and no walk, while others still utterly and emphatically refuse to be saved. God calls them all.

Hi rainman,

This post is slightly longer than I realised when I was writing it. Your patience appreciated, and my apology if it isn't as focused as you would like.

You have made your case for a more specific use of call as you read it in scriptural context, but my original statement 'God calls them all', is not the less contextual with regard either to foundational salvation, or, a specific calling to sainthood and a ministry.

I don't have enough Greek to start with the Greek, which may be a good thing, because I'm sure you'll explain it to me and we'll all benefit from the teaching.

So, when I say God 'calls' them all, this is what I have in mind.

There are several things going on simultaneously.

While a person is 'hearing' the gospel, it is the word of God itself which opens up his (or her) ears and the word of God itself which creates faith - that is, conviction of the truth of what is being heard and power to believe it.

This is a call to leave the world and sin, which has many implications for the hearer. It is a call to 'come out' of the world; to come out of bondage to sin. Already a lot is going on IN the understanding of the hearer of, and believer in, God's word to him or her specifically.

However, on responding to that 'call', the believer is greeted by the Lord, with more of His word. This is when it becomes more specific. For instance, when Andrew introduced his brother Simon to Jesus, Jesus declared 'You are Peter'. What? Where did that come from? What did that mean for 'Simon'? Simon had no idea whatever!

Likewise, Saul of Tarsus went through a similar series of events very soon after his first encounter with Jesus Christ: Acts 9:10 And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I [am here], Lord. 11 And the Lord [said] unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for [one] called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth, 12 And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting [his] hand on him, that he might receive his sight. 13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem: 14 And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name. 15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

[Most particularly,]

16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

Can you see that the 'appointment' part of having been called, comes after the initial postitive response of the hearer of God's initial 'call' to them personally?

And, that because of WHAT the call MEANS (separation from sin and the world), there is an undergirding all-pervasive assumption that the respondent has agreed to that separation, if he (or she) has believed the initial call OUT of bondage.

This separation forms the basis of the holiness (sanctification) which is an implicit qualification for any kind of ministry as a servant of God.

Now, using the picture of a family, it is clear that we name babies as soon as they are born. We 'call' them something, although they are nowhere near leaving home yet, or taking full responsibility for the implications of having become a member of that family. The same is true for many people in the spiritual realm. They are born again, and there is a 'calling' on their life which is completely clear to Father in heaven, but has yet to be revealed and embedded in the understanding of the son.

It may take longer for others work out how to categorise his ministry. In this respect, Paul telling us what he knew from the Lord, is very helpful, or what would we 'call' it? ;-)

Seriously, the person who chooses to stay in bondage to sin is called an unbeliever. I'm not sure people are 'unbelievers' until they have heard the gospel, because none of the penalties for their state of unbelief will apply to them until they are judged to have rejected the salvation offered in Jesus Christ.

This is what marked out those who had received the oracles of God on behalf of mankind when Christ did appear. Those who did not 'believe' had all the information available to identify the Saviour of the world. Jesus did not live for so long, that any of the religious leaders could say they didn't know about the angels who'd announced His birth, or Herod's slaughter of two-year olds. Some of them had lost relatives in that slaughter. Neither could they pretend ignorance of plots to kill Him BEFORE He was crucified. They were willing, even to SAY 'His blood be upon us and upon our children'! And, 'We have no kind but Caesar'. All this established them as unbelievers who could expect the wrath of God.

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; 15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. 16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. 17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? [was it] not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Hebrews 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard [it].

Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

So, in Hebrews 3:12 (above), it seems that 'when they knew God' (Rom 1), applies here also, the EVIDENCE of unbelief being the 'departing from the living God'.

There is room for discussion about how much Gentiles and heathens 'know' of God, and how their departure from Him will be reckoned in the judgement, compared with Jews and those who heard the gospel of Jesus Christ in their lifetime.

Here's a question: Is a person's 'will' 'free' before they have heard the gospel?

Seriously, the person who chooses to stay in bondage to sin is called an unbeliever

Hi RainMan,

First, your point 3 seems to acknowledge the post of UntoBabes, so, I hope your other comments do in fact refer to mine.

Thanks for reading it all. I do not mind being corrected on the meaning of the actual Greek - and perhaps I don't mind you disputing my experience, but I certainly wasn't trying to put my own freelance interpretation on scripture.

You said

Belief is a spiritual gift of grace (sovereign act of mercy) given by God by his sovereign will and is a work of the holy spirit and not of human rationale. Belief in the context of the NT is more reliant on the Holy Spirit than it is on rationale and decision making process.

By my reading, people deselect themselves from receiving it, by unbelief after they have understood the offer.

By the phrase 'human rationale', you are indicating you believe humans don't have the INTELLIGENCE when they hear either the gospel of life or the penalties for rejecting it, to CHOOSE consciously to believe because of the understanding they received through hearing the word of God. I don't think it has anything to do with intelligence, but from KNOWING one is being stirred to respond, by a word from God's heart.

On the point of God causing everything, here is an example where it's clearly stated, but He still didn't get His desire (will). Please comment when you reply.

Jeremiah 13:11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.

You said

If the saints were indeed chosen/called / separated before the foundations of the earth before they were even a fetus at what point do we as saints become saints is it before the foundations of the earth as the bible says or is it after (when we become corporal rational beings able to make a conscious choice). Did he choose us or did we choose him?

You're extrapolating backwards injudiciously with regard to your terms of reference. For instance, I'd be glad of a scripture which clearly states that WE were 'saints before the foundation of the earth'.

You said

In my humble opinion the existential cooperation of created beings in the act of salvation is secondary to Gods sovereignty.

Whereas, God is His exemplary humility stoops to invite us to lay down our corrupt godship in exchange for His uncorrupt sonship. We do have to choose to do that, or, we do not even begin to become sons of God, and He has every reason to execute His wrath upon us one day.

You said

Our salvation was concluded before the foundations of the world.

[edit]It is comments such as this last, which makes normal people want to walk away from 'theology'. Really, it is playing with words in a way scripture never intended. Moving the terms back and forth round a mathematical diagram can be done with impunity. Moving God's word around is unwise, if not impossible for the honest workman. (I've tried it.) One finds that Paul and the other writers were, indeed, inspired by the Holy Spirit, and there is great economy of expression, which we add to, or subtract from, at our peril.[end edit]

contd.

[Edited and rearranged.]

RainMan said

All i know is all things work together for the good of those who love him and for me that is enough to embrace his sovereign will.

I hope you don't think I don't believe God is sovereign? I do believe He is. Also, I believe there are many indications in His dealings with Israel, and in the way He has created natural relationships to work, which show Him looking for much more of an embrace from us than acknowledgement of His sovreignty. 'His sovereign will' for Christ took Him to the cross and through death. Yes, this is basic for us, and it's a huge challenge.

When people hear the gospel for the first time, there must be many different points God uses to make contact with individuals as they listen. He knows how they will reason with, and understand, what they hear, as much as He knows how they will respond. Is there any scriptural evidence for implying GOD CAUSES people to DISbelieve the gospel of Jesus Christ?

You asked (regarding my statement that a person cannot be called an unbeliever, until they've heard the gospel),

How have you come to this conclusion? Does it line up with Romans 1 & 2 where the apostle says the whole of humanity is condemned and without excuse?

I don't read Romans 1 and 2 as the 'condemnation' of the whole of humanity, because manifestly in recorded biblical history, there are those who have been the ministers of His word and His will, who at no time resisted Him. They sought Him and found Him, or were called by Him, or grew into their calling as it was relayed to them by their forebears. The first 2000 years of history was orally relayed by those who knew Him.

How can you think Paul is including those faithful ones?

Here are some verses as to why I believe a person has to hear the gospel before they will be judged for rejecting Christ.

John 16:8 And when he [the Comforter] is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

Acts 13:40 Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets; 41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you. 42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath. 43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God. 44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God. 45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming. 46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

1 Thes 2:4 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they [have] of the Jews: 15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: 16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

Rom 2:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? 4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? 5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: ... 9 ... upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

2 Thes 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

If there is anything in these last verses which might interest us as common ground, it is the clause ' because they received not the love of the truth'. Paul goes on to say, 'who believed not the truth'.

I wonder whether one receives 'love of the truth' before one believes? Perhaps this is an example of God calling something into being, which previously was not.

by Alive-to-God on 2010/10/22 5:14:15

While a person is 'hearing' the gospel, it is the word of God itself which opens up his (or her) ears and the word of God itself which creates faith - that is, conviction of the truth of what is being heard and power to believe it.

This is a call to leave the world and sin, which has many implications for the hearer. It is a call to 'come out' of the world; to come out of bondage to sin. Already a lot is going on IN the understanding of the hearer of, and believer in, God's word to him or her specifically.

However, on responding to that 'call', the believer is greeted by the Lord, with more of His word. This is when it becomes more specific. For instance, when Andrew introduced his brother Simon to Jesus, Jesus declared 'You are Peter'. What? Where did that come from? What did that mean for 'Simon'? Simon had no idea whatever!

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Hi LS,

Here you have hit on a point that was intended to be emphasisized in previous posting on this thread, yet trying to avoid wordiness, it was only reiterated as God's revealing (revelation) of Himself ot us.

This thread in several ways, has been a discussion over the ramifications of Romans 10.

More to the point of which you have stated in regards to God's growing revelation to us about all His salvation entails in and of Himself through Jesus Christ, consider Romans 10.17:
"Faith continues to come by hearing, and hearing (grows by) the word of God."

Some english Bible renderings state the last part as "hearing the message of/from Christ." Literally, in the greek, the word for "word" here is "rhema" and indicates God's inner "revealtion" to us.

Hearing implies compliance and not just listening. It is by our compliance to what Christ reveals to us that we hear more and more details to understand to do.

The verse is cyclical, and living through His Faith(fulness), this just happens. Jesus Christ continually reveals Himself to us in fuller detail as we walk in what He reveals to us.

God Bless you all,
gregg

Hi bro_willy,

Thank you for the scripture you shared. It's great to see those examples, but, the terminology of how to categorise what is going on in each one, and whether the labels given by standard Calvinist theology (if that's what you're using) are appropriate, is probably the most interesting part of this discussion.

When you say 'born again', I'm assuming you have at the back of your mind the parallel of a baby being born? If not, then may I put it to you, that this is the most appropriate analogy, and there are quite a few verses which pick up that picture. If your theology doesn't accommodate the analogy of natural birth, then your idea of spiritual birth may be faulty.

I hope that's food for both thought and Bible study.

I am glad that all the great thinkers are doing all the thinking in this thread.

To me it's not simple enough. It boils down to God's mercy.

God will have mercy upon one person and another He does not.

It can't get any simpler.

And God is no respecter of persons, He rains on the just and the unjust.

We were all saved one day not because we said the right words, or we did this that and the other, none of that was even in the equation, we were saved that day because God had mercy upon us, and then faith ignited and grace was extended to pull us out from the kingdom of darkness.

Whether we cling to predestination, election, ordination, anointing, free choice etc.. it still boils down to God having mercy on us.

Hi Phanetheus,

I didn't notice your post last night, but am blessed to discover it this morning.

More to the point of which you have stated in regards to God's growing revelation to us about all His salvation entails in and of Himself through Jesus Christ, consider Romans 10.17: "Faith continues to come by hearing, and hearing (grows by) the word of God."

However, I can see how EVERY time God speaks, His word opens my ears to 'hear' and understand more of His revelation of Himself through His word, and more of the implication for me as a believer. This is certainly true in my experience. It also makes sense of Jesus' use of the imperative 'Let this sink deep down into your ears'. If anyone believed the power of His word to 'open' the spiritual hearing, He did. I've realised that faith in the power of the word of God, is an essential foundation for any effective preacher.

by Alive-to-God on 2010/10/23 2:05:14

consider Romans 10.17: "Faith continues to come by hearing, and hearing (grows by) the word of God."Is this really a legitimate translation of v 17? I ask, because of the prophecies with which Paul gives it context, as if it is about the FIRST time a person hears the gospel.

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Hi again LS,

This is a much more accurate transliteration. The word "comes" (Rom. 10.17a) is in the continuous present tense in the greek. Because of that first phrase preceeding v.17b, "(grows by)" is implied.

To begin explaining understanding prophecy might open another can of worms.

i'll try to keep it simple.

There is much more to prophecy than the simple literal meaning.

To best relate prophecy, it is needful to understand that all prophecy comes from and points to Jesus Christ, (see: Rev. 19.10 & Heb. 1.1-3).

Learning about the Good News (the gospel) of Jesus Christ is a continuous walk into Him and not a one time decision or act.

Actually, we are speaking of salvation, and in the greek, this word "sozo" means three things at once:
"DELIVERANCE from . . . and then RESTORE . . . to PRESERVE wholeness."

Some might think this issue is not relative, however we can't leave out the purpose behind the predestination/free-will issue.

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C.J. (1st post this page) brings up Spurgeon's argument which is quite fitting at this point in the discussion.

Now, here is something that will throw off alot of Calvinists, whether they be 2 point or even 5 point: more often than not, wherever the word "election" is used in whatever tense in the scriptures, more often than not, it is in reference to things and not persons.

Let's see here, we have the analogies of:

- The chessmaster (who created the game in the first place)
- the exit/entrance sign
- the stoplight being green and red at the same time
- foreknowledge about the tumble of the die
...and now another analogy will be added right here that will give better light towards perspective regarding all the aforementioned in this thread. Rainman was speaking in relation to linear perspective -vs- eternal, and this is relative to that and what Christian just wrote.

The difference between these two perspectives (temporal -vs- eternal) can be viewed as a three dimensional cone.

We see things as though we are at a certain point at the base of the cone, time passing being the circumference of this circular base.

God can be thought to be at the apex. From this topmost point all things are observed simultaneously.

God Bless,
gregg

Hi Bro_willy

I disagree with you on three main points:

1. All men are able to live without sin.

2. God does not predestine anyone to be a sinner.

3. God does not foreknow anyone to be a sinner.

Here are some parts of your post that brought up these topics.

knowing that he would fall from his perfect state (1Pet.1:20, Rev. 13:8).

Rev 13:8 can be interpreted according to the corporate election/foreknowledge idea - the names representing the thoroughness of the deception among the ungodly, rather than 6000 year old foreknowledge of specific individuals.

God is not the author of sin even though He knew satan and man would both become wicked,

because He, in His infinite wisdom, will work all things together for the ultimate good, His glory.

God ... desires that all men repent ... but ... in His foreknowledge seeing that ... no man would desire to be saved ... God ... has chosen some ... to be saved

Also, many unsaved people do want to be saved - they just don't always want to meet the necessary conditions.

L. S. ,

Pondering your query further, (and believe me, neither is this the end of it) what was first written was reconsidered regarding full ramifications.

Folks reading might misunderstand what the word "rJhma" really is, thinking how it was tertly defined by yours truly.

When it was stated to mean revelation, this proceeds through the spoken word (even as Paul after this explains 'proclaiming' --through prophecy-- in clarifying this verse). THE REVELATION COMES by being mixed with His faith(fulness) through Messiah Jesus.

my thoughts were in relation to Eph. 6.17, where the Sword of the Spirit is spoken of in reference to "the word (rhema) of God"('s revelation of certain scripture) needed towards spiritual warfare.
( The good news of salvation is found in this as well as a message preached.)

Still, the scripture has to get within in the first place somehow.

Rhema ultimately means "something uttered" to an individual. It is not "to tell" ('eipon'--> epos) First there is the outer revelation, either by speech and/or writing. When the outer revelation becomes fixed in the heart, the Spirit of Christ can then reveal more inwardly . . . and oftimes settled within, a "word" is uttered to our mind unexpectedly when needful.
(This is the clearer definition of rhema)

It's thought now that i was speaking more of implications attached as parcel with the literal text -- still, the parcel is not possible without the other.
(Intentions were not to mislead and i'm sorry.)

As far as how the translators come by the last part being "the message of/from Christ" can be seen from N.T. text implied meaning and variation.

Most manuscripts (א1 A D1 Ψ 33 1881 Ï sy) have θεοῦ (qeou) here
rather than Χριστοῦ (Cristou; found in Ì46vid א* B C D* 6 81 629 1506 1739 pc lat co).
External evidence strongly favors the reading “Christ” here. Internal evidence is also on its side, for the expression ῥῆμα Χριστοῦ (rJhma Cristou) occurs nowhere else in the NT.

This is why scribes would tend to 'synonymize'
--(How's that for making a noun a verb?)-- it to a known expression that is elsewhere repeated the same
--(though in different words)--
way in other passages.

Blessings in Christ to one and all:
You too Watchman7777!

Shalom,
gregg

edited: 6th para., fifth word; changed from the word 'spoken' to the word 'uttered.' ...and one word added elsewhere for clarity

Good stuph naatmi!

i wa going to repond when it was asked "does God predestine some to DISbelieve?" but it slipped on by and you nailed it.

God observed and reveals everything He (re-)created (this go around) "GOOD."

For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
(Is. 45.18)

CIAO!
g

Wait a minute now. If God is God, He has to be the originator of all things.

John 1:3 All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made.

Evil was made by God, else there would not be anything such thing as temptation to rebel.

Satan did not create evil, though he would have us think that way.

Isaiah 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Isaiah 45:8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.

Isaiah 45:9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

Now, it's up to us to reason away verse 7 so we can justify our stance that God did not create evil. I have no problem with it, God does not want robots, He wants people to choose Him over the evil.

Deuteronomy 30:19 I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Hi Martin,

Ahha!

It wasn't known who would, but it was thought that someone would bring up the other verses in Isaiah 45 after quoting from it, as this is one of those OT sections that deals with the issue of predestination.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

This word 'create' is the hebrew word BARA (pronounced: bawh-rah'). The literal picture is that of one who cuts a timber in two, and continues to hew it according to planned purpose. It is the same word used when God "created the heavens and the earth" in Genesis 1.1

God is light, but when He is present, where is the darkness?
He cuts it in two and hews it away completely.

Darkness is not destroyed. It is just dispelled when Light is present, the two being unable to exist side by side.

The verse does not say God forms darkness, but only light.

The second phrase must be considered in relation to the phrases before and after it. Here, God does not say that He makes evil, but peace. God "BARA's" evil even as He BARA's darkness.

(We can see this with other Hebrew words that express both the head and tail of the coin STS, such as 'blessing' also means 'cursing' --both existing in potentia-- yet relative to us according to how we are (in character) and/or do (in purpose). In the passage, Duet. 30.19, the word 'cursing' here is not the same word as the Hebrew word for bless/curse, but actually means to slander and/or malign.))

Within the word BARA is the implication of existence in potentia. So BARA --making something out of nothing and or nothing out of something-- is a word relative to the context of a passage. Even as God created the herbs of the field and the trees with the seed and the fruit therein, so God said, "light be and light was." He did not say, "darkness be. . .", yet it exists in potentia until the light is gone.

The last phrase of Is. 45.7 explains that only God can BARA, as well as 'form' and 'make.'

Is. 45.18 puts all these things together in a greater detailed explanation. This is why this verse was used in the previous post.

How's that for 'reasoning away verse 7?"

Oh, it sounds like so much semantics, however, there is not one reference which states literally states that God: established, formed, or made darkness or evil. (Rather we are revealed the contrary). These things exist in potentia until what God created, formed, and established is removed. . . like turning from heads to tails on a coin.

No God doesn't want people who operate solely on cause and effect. Doing such is what the letter of the Law robotics and self-righteous automation are all about.

Neither can we have fellowship with our Father through Jesus Christ by walking in darkness and doing evil, as these are not part of His nature.
Walking in this way is striving with our Maker.
(Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands? (Is. 45.9)

Does this help clarify things at all?

Grace and Peace to you
in the most ancient path
following the Ancient of Days,
Jesus Christ. . .
AMEN.

gregg

p.s. i really like your previous posteed comments and hold to the fact you present: that it's all because of God's mercy we can walk in His grace. . . even if we may not be able to come completely clear regarding the whole of the predestination issue.

As I was pressed for time when I first responded I wanted to clean this up a bit, so this post has been revised, and will be potentially revised again.

Wait a minute now. If God is God, He has to be the originator of all things.

Why? 1 Corinthians 14:33

For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

So we already have it that He's not the author of at least one thing. Are there maybe some more?

Evil was made by God, else there would not be anything such thing as temptation to rebel.

Again, why? This reasoning seems a tad bit circular to me. God did not have to create evil for it to exist. I would submit that the fact that God IS, forces evil to exist. God exists, thus anything that is not God in line with God's standard will also exist. Evil exists solely because God exists.

To quote John 1:3 here, and to say that when it says that God has created all things including evil, and to continue with that reasoning, sin, would to me be a rather severe misinterpretation of the text.

Considering that the book of John is believed to be and considered by some scholars to be an account of the life of Christ in a midrashic parallel to the book of Genesis marking the new creation, I would hardly believe that John was in a literal sense meaning that He created everything, including evil and sin. It would appear that he was just using it again as a nod towards Genesis showing that the earth and all of existence in its entirety was created through Christ.

This would come to the second point though. Was technically everything "created" by God per say? Was the divine nature of God created?

When the Bible in 1 John 4:8 states that God IS love (unanimous in every translation I've ever read), should we believe that something about the nature and essence of God was in some way created? Or is love simply a word we use to define a characteristic of God? Is it something that God just IS, and has always been, having never been created? If we were to say the characteristics of God were created things, then things would start to get really confusing. Did God just do some sort of coin toss, and decide what things were of Him and what things weren't before He decided to set them in stone? Saying that something about His character and being was in anyway the result of creation?

Or are these all just reflections of who He is? I would say that God IS love, and has always been, before the creation God was love, and was good, and was every other sort of thing birthed from divinity that we as men are given the ability to experience only by and through Him. Because of that I would also believe that anything contrary to literally WHO He is, is evil. It did not have to be created by Him. The fact that He is would allow evil to exist simply because it would entail anything that He isn't.

I would be very hesitant to paint God as the author of sin.

Now, it's up to us to reason away verse 7 so we can justify our stance that God did not create evil.

But what about the actual meaning of the word evil in this verse, as rendered in other translations and in the original Hebrew? Just because an ENGLISH translation or two decided to render it as the word evil, it doesn't always mean what we perceive it in our western English speaking minds to mean. When we come across this stuff it's better to go to the original languages. The word Hebrew "Ra" here doesn't precisely mean evil in the way we use the word in English. It can also mean calamity, destruction, and have a few other nuances. The NASB renders it completely differently, as do other translations. It's quite interesting if you're ever curious to investigate it further.

wouldn't that be foreknowing men to be sinners?

I have much more I'd like to put into words - not against predestination or for free will - but just to put ALL thoughts in context of what scripture ACTUALLY states. In this, savannah has made a good point at the start of her last post.

But, we seem to be missing the central and most monumental truth in this, which is that He WANTS us to be in RELATIONSHIP WITH Him. (Not in relationship against Him.) The relationship He desires, is that we should be believing in Jesus for salvation from eternal death.

Isaiah 45 was quoted earlier, and Paul's comments in Romans 9. I want to point out Paul prefaced them with 'What IF God ... '. In other words, he is offering an hypothesis appropriate at the time of writing.

In Isaiah 45:9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! [Let] the potsherd [strive] with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands? 10 Woe unto him that saith unto [his] father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth? 11 Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.

This analogy from the Old Testament is picked up by Paul, (I don't mean to minimise the truth therein.) but where is the truth of 'Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me'? This is translated in the NASB: 11 Thus says the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker: "Ask Me about the things to come concerning My sons, And you shall commit to Me the work of My hands."

God is looking for people who will show themselves aligned with His will by wrestling with Him (if necessary), rather in the way Abigail challenged David not to take the law into his own hands. I know that may seem contradictory, but does anyone see what I'm getting at? That God is LOOKING to find men and women with an understanding of HIS righteousness and perfect judgement in all things. This is how Abraham successfully sought God for the life of Lot's family.

Now OF COURSE it is the goodness of God to 'do' anything we request of Him, but I fear we are talking right over the head of the purpose of prayer, the purpose of salvation, the purpose of Pentecost, if we, as God's sons, don't make the assumption that God's WILL is GOOD to 'all people', and, that we do have a part to play in HIS plan, which involves us 100%. What happened to the man who buried his talent is an example of God's way of reasoning.

One of the things I'm trying to say is, I don't find in the Bible ANYWHERE that God destroys a man or people, without a very specific well-defined reason. We may wish away the Old Testament events when whole families were put to death - right down the generations - but I feel this serves to highlight our descent from Adam, which we MUST remember, if we are to understand the cross.

But as well as this, there is an ever-increasing revelation of God holding individuals more responsible as the generations pass, so that punishing children for their parents' sins became a thing of the past, right up until He punished His own Son for ALL the sins of the whole world. Please read Ezekiel 18.

Also, I feel that the tenor of scripture is that when there are casulaties (people dying) for the continuance of God's plans, it does cost God something. To Him, it's a sacrifice, not a pleasure. In the Old Testament, He frequently instructed for whole people groups to be wiped out. Of course, it wouldn't make any difference if they had been, because sin would have continued anyway, but, it does interest me a lot, that those charged with the command to destroy, often didn't finish it off. I see this as another indication of the sinfulness of the human heart, that again and again 'God's people', were either unwilling or unable to complete the task of destroying the enemy. This is another picture of why we needed God Himself to come and finish off that enemy for ever, and for good.

Sorry if I'm rambling. I feel a bit better now, but am still uneasy with any obliteration of man's part - as the servant who didn't make his talent multiply AT ALL, found out.

Please give me some feedback on the above. I'm not sure if even I know quite what I'm trying to say, but trying to say it does help to get more perspective.

Perhaps some of what I want to say also fits in the New Covenant thread, so I'll chew over where to post it.

Hi Bro_willy,

Doesn't scripture say that God declares the "end from the beginning"

and there is not a "just man who doeth good and sinneth not."?

According to Adam Clarke the Hebrew for "sinneth not", lo yechta, ought to be translated "may not sin" as it has been elsewhere in the Bible. Eccl 7:20 therefore can be translated as: "There is not a just man who doeth good who is unable to sin." or, "All just men who do good works are capable of transgression."

Because of free will, all men are capable of sinning, therefore universal sin is possible. But if all men sinned (past), it does not logically follow that all men will sin (future), because it is not statistics that make the man but his own choices; it is not the deeds of our ancestors that make us good or evil, but our own choices.

Jesus told Peter that he would deny him three times before the cock crowed

God has prophesied many things that would happen because of men's sin. wouldn't that be foreknowing men to be sinners?

Hath He chosen us because He did foreknow that we would be holy, and without blame, as men think?

by snufalapagus on 2010/10/24 7:38:26

Hath He chosen us because He did foreknow that we would be holy, and without blame, as men think?

Lets say there was truth in that, I would have to conclude that God misjudged saving me on those grounds. I would also have to conclude that to become holy is beyond my comprehension, therefore it must be His holiness standing in my stead that causes one to be holy.
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DITTO and AMEN. We are chosen because we can't be holy, blameless...etc.
____________________________________________________________

The whole issue centers around our neediness. Without dependence on God relating with Him on His terms, we easily manage to establish ourselves as a hot mess.

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Naatmi,

There are some things you wrote that do not seem right.

Though i have small regard for Clarke, he is spot on in the rendering of "Lo YeChTA."

The idea that any prophecy refers only to a certain point in time is oversimplified literalism. (This is how we end up with people saying such things as, "Oh, that sripture is only for historical purposes...etc" and such thinking flies in the face of scripture itself considering II Tim. 3.16-17.

Your summary statement says more than what is realized on the surface, and it's quoted:

"There are some things that God intends to do that do not depend upon our choices, such as the resurrection. Other things are contingent. In Jeremiah 18, God says that his prophecies should be understood to be conditional, that is, depending upon the behavior of those the prophecies concern. We see an example of this in the happily failed prophecy in the story of Jonah."

Are there really only 'some things' that do not depend on 'our choices' that God intends?

Using your line of reasoning from your text (above what was qouted (re:applicability), Jer. 18 only applied to ancient Israel before being taken captive. Again, this is hardly saying that prophecy is conditinal(except from our perspective). All prophecy from God is true, and it is only the conditional statements in prophecy that are conditional to us. Consider the premise to the idea of conditionality, stated clearly in verse 6, where Yaweh proclaims, "Aren't you just clay in my hands...?"

The prophecy of Jonah was conditional, yet God reveals this is what i will do in 40 days if you do or do not repent.

Conditionality of prophecy is more sure than a hedged bet.

God is not dependent on us for anything whatsoever. Rather, we are dependent on him just to be able to suck in our next breath and even the balance of the earth's gaugings to support life. God depends on us for nothing and will glorify Himself irregardless of whether the face of the earth is wiped clean or not.

Whatcha' think?

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Alive-to-GOd,

You gotz me thinking deep and wondering.

Prayerfully, i'll be spending some time in Ez. 18 and related passages. To say anything about your post right now would be flippant, though at present there is concurrance. i may be wrong, but think i see what you're driving at.

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Savannah,

Thanks. i didn't know how to as simply state what the texts you provided put in fewer words than i could have done.
____________________________________________________________

Christian, the input of your qoute was quite timely.
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Bro_willy,

Thanks for starting this thread and giving more food for though as we continue.

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Rainman, Untobabes, and Brother Nathan?

Don't be so silent...please?

____________________________________________________________

Ryan,

Was this the Cal/Arm debate you were expecting?

(...and we're curious as to how the 'revival' results are going there...we (yes, there's more than me) still praying.)

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Rbanks,

Loved the input.
You Got more?
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Alive to God,

Your putting out those scriptures, the whole before and after considerations with their whatnots have spurred me deeper into this issue.
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Jim,

Thanks for giving the analogous perspectives relating time, eternity, and how two sides of a coin can be operational sumultaneously.

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Miccah,

Yeah, me too.

____________________________________________________________

Some may think i have a vested interest in this thread.

Not so.

It's just one of those things that fascinates and weighs heavy in this mind having walked through death's doorway more than once.

Thank you one and all.

Above all else, thank our God and Father, and our Saviour, Jesus Christ His Son, who cares enough about us to tells us just enough to cause us to seek Him out and search the scriptures that much more.

Shalom,
gregg

Hi Phanatheus,

The idea that any prophecy refers only to a certain point in time is oversimplified literalism.

My point was only to show that the Isaiah 45 verse does not prove Calvinistic Predestination / Exhaustive Foreknowledge. I see no reason it could not be reasonably interpreted within a limited context making it compatible with a Free Will / Open Future worldview. If the verse is compatible with two opposing views then it proves neither.

Using your line of reasoning from your text (above what was qouted (re:applicability), Jer. 18 only applied to ancient Israel before being taken captive.

In Isaiah 45, a universal principle of Calvinism is not established and then specifically applied to Cyrus, Israel, etc. It just says "the end" and "the beginning" leaving it up to the context to dictate the interpretation.

More importantly, no Bible verse should be interpreted contrary to reason and the rest of scripture. Reason and Scripture present the Free Will / Open Future worldview. The Deterministic / Fatalistic worldview is not an hermeneutical option.

Again, this is hardly saying that prophecy is conditional(except from our perspective).

All prophecy from God is true, and it is only the conditional statements in prophecy that are conditional to us.

The prophecy of Jonah was conditional, yet God reveals this is what i will do in 40 days if you do or do not repent.

Phanetheus,

Thanks for your encouragements. I look forward to your meditations.

I will add just one thought which I think I've tried to say already, but which the phrase 'Free Will/Open Future', has reminded me again.

(First, I don't dispute God's sovereignty but I don't think He's as inflexible from OUR point of view, as some seem to think 'sovereignty' necessitates. From His point of view, He knows everything already, I agree. Within that, He knows who can be converted, and who cannot be converted, but WE don't have this information. However, we do have His instructions, which include loving Him with all our heart, mind, soul and strength, which include 'not my will but Thine', which include 'As my Father sent Me, so send I you'. There are more, but that's a sample).

So the matter I'm minded to mention again, is that of sin. That we are all in bondage to sin until we hear with understanding, the gospel. It is only THEN that we have a choice coupled with an opportunity to escape that bondage.

2 Peter 1: To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ: 2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that [pertain] to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption [that is] in the world through lust.

Hopefully it is clear that those who do NOT obtain like precious faith with them, also have not escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

The 'righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ' is not only the righteousness which by faith we can claim for ourselves, but also BECAUSE God is righteous, when we BELIEVE, we are accepted by Him. He is no longer justified in holding our sin against us.

If we disbelieve, we are beginning to give God reason to include us in one of His bundles of dead branches for the fire. I say 'beginning', because He may give us other chances to change our minds: to exercise our freed will.

Edit: Could someone please explain the Greek for 'obtain'.

I have the feeling it is not about God dumping an unwanted gift of faith on a person, but about God making faith available, and the person to whom it's offered, laying hold on it. What's the real definition please?

Hallo naatmi!

by naatmi on 2010/10/24 14:14:02

Hi Phanatheus,

The idea that any prophecy refers only to a certain point in time is oversimplified literalism.

Wouldn't the idea that all prophecies specifically refer to all points in time be interpretive lawlessness?
------------------------------------------------------------
g:
Taking everything at face value, yeah, that's right, however i don't know that we are any better off by only looking at the surface of things.

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil has the surface appearance of goodness; but, what's the result of eating from it?

How about an added perspective?
1. Everything that happens results from Gen. 1.1. --> Gal. 6.7-8
2. Everything prophecied is from and points to Jesus Christ --> Rev. 19.10 / Heb. 1.1-3

If 1. and 2. are correct, wouldn't this mean that re:
1. All prophecy has it's roots in the beginning and it's full fruit in eternity?
2. Until we see the revelation of Jesus Christ in prophecy, our best guess is a 'literal' oversimplification ?

Currently, perspective is limited.

____________________________________________________________

n:
My point was only to show that the Isaiah 45 verse does not prove Calvinistic Predestination / Exhaustive Foreknowledge. I see no reason it could not be reasonably interpreted within a limited context making it compatible with a Free Will / Open Future worldview. If the verse is compatible with two opposing views then it proves neither.
------------------------------------------------------------
g:
From our limited perspective, walking in the flesh, we are free to do anything we want (within the confines of the governing laws of physics, i.e., limitation). Yet, anything we do has predetermined results that we do not understand even after our actions bear fruit.

Currently, i observe an Open Future worldview seeming to be a politically correct way of saying, "We won't admit it, but,from our human frame of reference, we really don't know the results of what we do.

Please refer back to Christian's qoute at the top of page 5.
Do the two view really stand in opposition, or is it a matter of not understanding the how's and why's and wherefores?

Consider the ant's worldview were there given the mind of a man.

____________________________________________________________

n:

Using your line of reasoning from your text (above what was qouted (re:applicability), Jer. 18 only applied to ancient Israel before being taken captive.

In Isaiah 45, a universal principle of Calvinism is not established and then specifically applied to Cyrus, Israel, etc. It just says "the end" and "the beginning" leaving it up to the context to dictate the interpretation.

------------------------------------------------------------

If 1. and 2. are true above, the context to all prophecy is relative to Rev. 22.21 all the way back to Gen. 1.1, isn't it?

____________________________________________________________

n:
More importantly, no Bible verse should be interpreted contrary to reason and the rest of scripture. Reason and Scripture present the Free Will / Open Future worldview. The Deterministic / Fatalistic worldview is not an hermeneutical option.
------------------------------------------------------------
g:

(. . .oh boy, here we go again. . .)

Man being fallen, reasoning is faulty and cannot be trusted in understanding God in relation to here below.

Back to the ant, this might just be a matter of perspective. As such, what of hermenuetics?

____________________________________________________________

Again, this is hardly saying that prophecy is conditional(except from our perspective).

I disagree. It's hardly saying anything else. It is explicitly saying that prophecy often is conditional. It is not this or that perspective that matters, but what God says about reality. In reality prophecies of blessing or destruction to any nation or kingdom are conditional.
------------------------------------------------------------

So, Revelation can be changed simply by humanity altering course? Just a few mid-course corrections here and there and wala, Bible prophecy becomes invalid?

God is not a man that he should lie. God has told us what the end of 'reality' is.

____________________________________________________________

All prophecy from God is true, and it is only the conditional statements in prophecy that are conditional to us.

The prophecy of Jonah was conditional, yet God reveals this is what i will do in 40 days if you do or do not repent.

Fatalistic determinism says we do not have options.

It does not say that there is a limit to our options.

Free Will / Open Future stands within the confines of what God knows and says has been even as what will be.

This is not Determinism. This is the Chessmaster revealing the best possible options and the results.

Was Nineveh's repentance a result of God's intervention or man's choice? How does a man get all the livestock in the whole of Nineveh to fast?

Was the ruler's obedience because of faith or fear or both?

me thinks you might be considering limitation somehow to be part of Fatalism.

Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it. Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?
(Is. 45.8-9)

"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
(Rev. 22.18-21)

From one potsherd
to the same reading this:
Mara natha!

gregg

p.s. The only freedom man will ever know is life in Jesus Christ. Without Him, there is no faith above the law.

In the Bible, there are 8 variants to the word translated as the synonym "obtain" . Seven verbs and one noun are relative to this english word.

Passagewise, what specific place(s) are you wondering about?

Heb. 11.35 ?
I Thess 5.9 ?

In II Pet. 1.1, "Obtained" is "alloted portion."

( If you download E-Sword (free), it comes with a dictionary that provides general information regarding archaic words from which the english text is derrived (from the O.T. Masoretic and Textus Receptus mss.)

If you want something more specific, there is probably someone here that can help.)

Still learning from Ezekiel,
g

Thanks Grant for first clarifying the word "ra" (evil) in Is. 45.7. My mother keeps on telling me i need to be using the NASB.
(In the mouth of two or three witnesses?)

UntoBabes,

Is freedom of choice free-will?

Do you think of this kosmos as a controlled experiment?

Personally, i don't think i have ever thought of destruction as evil so much as a way of clearing the playing field for something different.

Regarding opinions, we've all got them, and to a greater or lesser extent, we're all wrong. ( Rev. 12.9)

God Bless,
gregg

Hi,

What do you make of Rom. 8.20-29?

Does anyone disagree with RainMan's brief overview or summary conclusion?

This is one of those passages that always has knocked my self to the floor.

RainMan,

This family will be praying for yours:
Especially towards a trouble-free delivery at this juncture.

All hope
in the Faithfulness
of our Lord,

gregg

Don't mind me, just interjecting a thought.

Some of these rather long postings are just that quite long. ugh!

Are they all your words or are they just stuff being copied and pasted from other sites? If so, can you at least say that you did, so I can avoid reading it, because I personally rather hear from what the posters thoughts are and not what some professor had to say in a long drawn out boring thesis or reading his doctrinal drivel:-)

Thanks (hehe)

snuf-

Hi all,

I've been thinking about the word 'predestinate', partly because of RainMan using the term 'predetermined'.

To predetermine something is COMPLETELY different from foreknowing it.

I'll give you an example.

A Christian father of three who was in Britain (from Africa) for study, told us about the gifts he had chosen for each of his children to take home with him. Even though they were simple, and not expensive. I was fascinated by what I learned about a father's heart.

For one, he had chosen a game, because this child like to interact with others through play. For another, he had chosen a puzzle, because this child loved a challenge. And for the third, he had chosen sweets, because this child loved to share whatever she had with everybody.

In the context of this thread, the above anecdote shows 'foreknowledge'. This father had not 'predetermined' what his children would be like, nor had he 'predestinated' them to turn out a particular way.

In the thread 'How do you know you are pleasing God?' I came across Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Now, some would say that whom He foreknew, were the Jews. But that aside, the difference between God as our Father and the father of whom I shared above, is that our God DID PREDESTINATE us to turn out a particular way; that is: 'conformed to the image of His Son'. (I don't think the '[to be]' which seems to throw it all into the future, is any help at all!)

Because, if we are going to grow up into 'the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ', then the Holy Spirit in us, crying 'Abba, Father', is something about us having received the incorruptible seed (Christ).

I'm not trying to say we have all arrived, but the 'destination' (to which God 'pre' determined we should be sent), IS CONFORMITY to the image of His Son. Therefore, as Christ is formed in us to a greater and greater degree, (2 Cor 3:18), '2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure', (1 John 3), is true.

This is 'predestination'.

Regarding 2 Cor 3:18, there is a long ago previous thread in which philologos suggested that 'glorification' was a better word for what is happening when we are 'changed from glory to glory'. (I would add this, that the connection with dying daily should not be overlooked, and while this may not exactly constitute 'suffering', it may do some of the time, and thus Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together. 18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time [are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory which shall be revealed in us', and 'Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified' (Rom 8:30), seem to be more connected.

Having so said, I do not understand the order in Rom 8:30 at all, and wonder if this is the precise order in the Greek?

There is always the mystery of being in God, and God being in us. Looking at Him does not on its own make us like Him, but it shows us where we need to change (repent, believe, receive), and that done, thereafter we display more of His glory to each other and the world. But, none of this could happen at all, had we not already separated ourselves (sanctification) for His purposes.

but whether [there be] prophecies, they shall fail; whether [there be] tongues, they shall cease; whether [there be] knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know EVEN ALSO AS I AM KNOWN.

Regarding prophecy, and whoever pointed out that some of it is contingent, I'd never thought of it like that, but AMEN. There are other prophecies about Christ and His work and the ends of various ages, which seem to be in a higher, surer realm, which nothing we can do, will change. Of course, as Christ was first prophesied in Gen 3, we should not be so surprised when, as time marches on, such prophecies eventually reach their fulfilments.

Phanetheus, RainMan and others,

Please accept my apology for not directly addressing your posts. I hope to comment, perhaps, tomorrow.

For those who are interested in some of the predestination and foreknowledge views as viewed historically and the way first century believers would have seen this, I would HIGHLY recommend that you check out this message found on Sermonindex. It's called "What the reformers forgot" by Jacob Prasch. Now there is A LOT of content in this message, so the topic isn't tackled right off the bat, but it is touched on.

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=18731&commentView=itemComments

Prasch is a Jewish convert to Christianity, fluent in Hebrew, church history, and Jewish history and rabbinical thought.

Usually when sermons are posted for people to listen to on a topic I tend to skip over them, especially if I don't recognize the name. However, I'd really implore the curious to give this a shot.

I'd recommend any of his sermons that are available on this site, as he is probably one of the most, if not the most, interesting historically and Biblically academic speakers I've ever heard. SOLID exegesis. And you can go look up everything he says. Challenge yourself and give this a listen.

Snuffy,

Personally, seldom from here is posted anything from other sites or other's ideas except scripture itself. If it is done, the URL is preferred rather than going to the trouble of copying and/or cut-n-paste. Anyway, it's a habit started in HS and ingrained in college to site sources when writing and not defrauding the reader through plagarism. As stated several times previously on other posts, i have a bad tendency to become wordy when writing, and unless someone is willing and available to edit (like when i am under contract for a book . . . pseudononymously so far. . . but i'm thinking of changing my pen-name to either: Ben Amin Berythel--->(B. A. B.el . . . you can laugh now,) , Isaac Jaaskovich, or Doan Telcher . . . any suggestions are appreciated.) Having to read book after book after book in school, attempting three degrees at once and never finishing one due to a fatal body mangling car crash, among other things, the Lord clearly told me, among other things "knowledge puffeth up" in not so few words, i.e. Eccl. 1.18, 12.12.
(Per the Lord's direction, i was completely offline from 2001 until he gave me a computer and an Inet connection again in 2010. Bookwise, i've become virtually a one book man yet love to listen to sermon after sermon while working.)

(Thanks again Grant.)

Apolologies if i write too much or try and prompt other to do so. i read quick and most often type quick, usually without edit.
( Could i suggest you go through Evelyn Woodhed's Sped Reding Course? )

Sometimes response is individual and at times not.

My fault is failure to understand and recognize other's time limits and attention spans. Currently, if i loose inteerest, often reading/writing is quit with until interest sparks up again. . . that is, if the Lord directs not otherwise.

Alive-to-God, it's doubted anyone will feel sleighted if there is no personal response. There are alot of thoughts flying through this thread and unless one remembers who wrote what. ( I'm good at this with text but person to person face to face, i often misplace and mix names because of similar attitudes observed through through human interaction. ) Postwise on a thread, reading through, new ideas and various responses are drwn through the mingling and co-mingling of various posts. Go figure.
============================================================

W0rks deadlines are hounding again again, and unless God wants me to read/write, it's doubtful a way will be made to make impression in the seasands of SI until Shabbat. D.V., He allows me to continue uninterrupted with this thread.

Thing is, right now a mountain of scripture is being meditated on and studied through. It seems like nearly everything looked to in scriptures says "predestination/free-will" in that order.

Beginning in Thee Faith (30+ y-eraz ago), i was taught that prophecy was "forth-telling" and that over 1/4th of the Bible was prophecy.

When God set my life into walking in the 'office' of, i found out differently. my (Messianic) Rabbi clarified that this is hardly the limit of prophecy. Over one fourth of the time it is just that through discerning spirits, a word of knowledge, or a word of wisdom; however, it's purpose is to encourage, exhort, and admonish. With this in mind, to whom anybody God reveals His righteousness towards proclamation is a talking walking prophet, according to their trust in the Messiah. The whole of the scripture is a prophetic revelation of Jesus Christ. The realization came that whether it was Moses, Joshua, Paul or whoever wrote God-breathed scripture or revealed God's righteousness --(in and of and from and onto our Saviour Jesus Christ)-- to people is fulling the role of prophet to a greater or lesser extent.

It is only less than 1 fifth of the Bible, through the Koine' Greek we think of prophecy as merely "forth-telling." (To limit ourselves to less than 1 fifth of the Bible is to see less than 1 fifth of God's revelation of Himself (in righteousness).

Paul told to pray that you may prophecy, yet this was hardly ever even considered here. This is something i never wanted and fought God's call with giftings and lost. He ended up having to deal with me with a heavy hand (which from seeing all the Bible examples of killed dead prophets was something that was shunned). Will the pot strive against the potter? Folks, it's a losing battle, and to be revealed your own final demise . . . well, if nothing else does it, that will definitely put the fear of God in you and obliterate the fear of death, much less anything else.

(Still, through it all, complete dependence and an ever abounding trust of God in Christ has come through this, even though pride still rears it's ugly head from time to time. i WOULD NEVER EVER GO BACK TO WHAT LIFE WAS LIKE BEFORE NOW. Today, God is so real in this life that the physical though more vibrant is a faded reality compared to the eternal life he has freely given. )

How's that for
H.onest
O.pen and
T.ransparent ?

When Moses and the children of Isreal sojourned the wilderness, look at all the times Moses spent time alone with God. They get out there and God tells Moses to come up on the mountain and just BE with Him for 40 days. . . then He gets back to the tribes and sets up his tent outside the camp, and it becomes known as "the tent of meeting."

Adam walked with God in the cool of the day.

Many others could be related regarding their relationship with our God, just spending time completely alone with Him.

Today, in one of Greg's post's and sojourner7's response you see my own emphasis in everything written though not always so obviously stated:

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=35650&forum=34&1

Regarding this or any other thread that response is found from here, one thing alone often surfaces heavily from this heart straight from His Spirit, ". . .yeah, all this talk about surrounding things greggy bouy, but what of relationship? Me with them (all participants in this forum). . . me with you. . . write this: ______________."

We can easily get sidetracked.
The question is: are you keeping a constantly open ear to His direction(s) or will you turn your back?

This whole thread has gripped me like not another, and really it's not the thread at all except it's prompting effect, especially when Romans 8 was turned to this morning.

Here i am sorting through Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel and related scriptures and God says, " From beginning to end, read Romans." Chapter 8, vv. 20 - 29 set this body trembling, and by the time it was finished i was no use for much of anything here below. Only worship, only relationship. . .that was all that happened for how long i don't care. Recomposed, the computer was returned to and reading/typing ensued, then it was off to work (but i was called aside by Him and we talked for how long i don't care.

Yesterday was a very very good day.

We think the problem is self or will or what we have or know and it's not.

It's what we don't do. . . and what we don't do is JUST BE WITH HIM.

Without communing with God there really isn't anything worth thinking, saying, or doing.

God has made a way through the cross of His one and only dearly loved Son who pleases Him extremely. The awesomeness of this relationship is beyond description and prayers are that all will heed and consider this 1 thing 1st and formost.

Without this one thing, the idea of continuing True Revival is a misgnomer.

Learn to just be with God and He'll take care of the rest.

Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness! No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment? Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they? Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature? And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin: And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith? Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. Take therefore no thought for the morrow.
Mt. 6.19-34a

Beholding Jesus,

gregg

edited: Hebraisms converted to English to avoid confusion

To RainMan,

Maybe this needs to be discussed further in a more general way by all of us, but your equation of 'liberty' and 'free will' is neither fair to the context of liberty (eg Gal 5:1 which is with regard to the law), nor to the concept of free will which is not called 'free will' in the KJV (ever). A man and his will are not separate things.

To everyone: in the following verse, who is 'chosen'?

Luke 14:23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel [them] to come in, that my house may be filled.

In other words, do you believe that only the people who allowed themselves to be compelled, were chosen, and the ones that refused to be compelled were not chosen?

Did their refusal play some part in their not arriving at the 'house'?

Or, was everyone the servant spoke to, successfully 'compelled'?

Finally, I wish to confirm that I know I'm not doing formal 'exegesis' on any scripture, anytime, when I post. I've not been formally or informally trained to do so. Unlike UntoBabes, I very much enjoy the single word studies which accompany these discussions, as they are always useful for future study. I am not particularly interested in theological constructs. The further they drift from what scripture actually says, the less convinced I am of their validity. No offence intended. Even some very straightforward offerings which seem to be based clearly on scripture, at times do not read spiritually, and therefore are equally unconvincing, imho.

bro_willy

After I posted that one I listened to it, and though he did touch on the topic, I had it slightly confused with one of his other messages where he goes into the subject in greater detail, as he tends to just shotgun out information. I've listened to so many of his sermons I can never remember exactly in which particular one this content was addressed in.

Unfortunately that particular message isn't on this site. However, it's on his website in the sermons section listed as, "Once saved always saved."

The audio quality on that one is a little hit or miss, but that one (if I remember a bit better) deals more with free will, OSAS, predestination, TULIP, etc., as those are the key topics addressed vs. the reforming fathers topic.

His ministry's name is Moriel. If you google his name and Moriel, it should't be difficult to find. You can PM if you'd like a link.

Hello UntoBabes,

It's an interesting idea to roll every parable about a wedding, into one single 'story'.

Regarding the parable I quoted, there was a clear distinction between those who were formally invited, who turned down the invitation, (though some accepted), and those who were informally invited, who may or may not have attended. Perhaps this is something about Israel and the nations?

Phanetheus,

Thank you for sharing as you did on the previous page.

It seems like nearly everything looked to in scriptures says "predestination/free-will" in that order.

(Strong's numbers)
03478 Yisra'el {yis-raw-ale'}
from 08280 and 0410;; n pr m
AV - Israel 2489, Israelites 16; 2505
Israel = "God prevails"

Ephesians 5:'... as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Who prepared her? Who adorned her?

Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

1 John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Isn't it that we needed Christ to have died for us, for Him to cleanse us from our sin, for Him to give us a new heart, a new spirit and a new mind? And while we are presenting our bodies as a living sacrifice which is only our reasonable service, He is ridding us of every spot, blemish and wrinkle so that He can present to Himself a glorious bride who is holy?

But she can and must 'make herself ready', and go willingly to the marriage. This matter of her consent is vital to His peace of mind and joy.

There is a curious paradox in all this, in that if we were consciously to seek God, thinking it was our own idea to do so, He would not mind at all. He would be delighted. Eventually, though, we (having found Him), would realise that HE had been drawing us all along, through those who had obediently lifted up the name of Jesus Christ to us.

EDIT: 1 John 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins ... 19 We love Him, because He first loved us.

Hi Phanatheus,

Regarding the legitimacy of reason:

Man being fallen, reasoning is faulty and cannot be trusted in understanding God...

If reason is not dependable then:

1) your points about prophecy cannot lead to any valid conclusion.
2) discussion is futile.
3) I can say anything I want and blame your objections on our "limited human perspective".
4) I can object to everything you say and then impute your disagreement to "inadequate human reasoning".
5) these five points would be faulty
6) or maybe they wouldn't, how could any human ever know

Regarding the illegitimacy of Isaiah 45 as proof of exhaustive foreknowledge, determinism, fatalism, etc:

1. Everything that happens results from Gen. 1.1. --> Gal. 6.7-8

2. Everything prophecied is from and points to Jesus Christ --> Rev. 19.10 / Heb. 1.1-3

If 1. and 2. are correct, wouldn't this mean that re:
1. All prophecy has it's roots in the beginning and it's full fruit in eternity?
2. Until we see the revelation of Jesus Christ in prophecy, our best guess is a 'literal' oversimplification ?

If 1. and 2. are true above, the context to all prophecy is relative to Rev. 22.21 all the way back to Gen. 1.1, isn't it?

To RainMan,

Regarding my bringing in of Gal 5:1, I accept that you had Romans in mind.

That being so, the 'liberty' in Romans is not 'free will' either, in respect of choosing God or responding to His call or not, it is the freedom to not sin.

This is not the 'free will' we have been discussing, namely, the freedom to choose faith over unbelief at the moment of hearing the gospel.

However, as I look at that statement, choosing 'faith', is, of course, the righteous choice. To choose unbelief would be, essentially, to sin in its most fundamental form.

To UntoBabes,

Was the book of Romans a book of doctrine or was the Apostle addressing some concerns the believers in Rome had.

Did he have in mind Jew v. Gentile as in the rest of the epistles.

Why did he have to emphasize on things such as election, predestination, grace, and faith,…to the Gentile believers.

Definitely, there were Jewish Christians in the church at Rome, and they are included all the way through the book. I have not listened to the sermon on which you are commenting, so if this is what Mr Prasch said, I apologise. Romans was certainly not a book addressing concerns suggested by the Gentile Christians at Rome.

I'm not quite sure what you have in mind when you ask, 'Why did he have to emphasize on things such as election, predestination, grace, and faith,…to the Gentile believers?'

How would you answer your own question, please?

UntoBabes, thank you for the detailed answer. I'm working through it as I reply.

For example in Rom 12: I He refers to living sacrifice, the only sacrifice that is pleasing to God, but by using that term, he is reminding them of the old covenant.

Isn't it more likely he is reminding them of Christ?

And all the references Jesus made to leaving all - including wife children and property - to follow Him, to take up their cross daily, to face persecution with rejoicing, (and more)? Would not these more signify the daily bite of meaningful 'sacrifice' for Christ's followers?

in Romans 1 from verses 18-32 speaks of the sin of man kind but especially the Greek. Mainly atheism, idolatry, homosexuality.

Romans 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. 2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. 3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? 4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? 5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Romans 2: 17- 25 the sins of the Jew. Mainly Judging, and hypocrisy.

Psalm 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, [There is] no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, [there is] none that doeth good. 2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, [and] seek God. 3 They are all gone aside, they are [all] together become filthy: [there is] none that doeth good, no, not one. 4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people [as] they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD. 5 There were they in great fear: for God [is] in the generation of the righteous. 6 Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD [is] his refuge. 7 Oh that the salvation of Israel [were come] out of Zion! when the LORD bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, [and] Israel shall be glad.'

I don't see anything in Psa 14 that doesn't apply to Jews. This is exactly the point Paul was making in Rom 1:18 - 32.

The conclusion is: The law without faith only brings condemnation. Because faith is the victory that causes man to obey the law wholeheartedly.

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith WITHOUT THE DEEDS OF THE LAW.

That might come as a surprise to you!

he establishes from the law that all are sinners, not only the Gentile( for that was already understood), but also the Jew.

It's true the Jews thought of Gentiles as sinners, but that was hypocrisy also, because the law didn't prevent their sins, it merely accommodated God's abhorrence of them.

Possibly, Ezekiel 8 is relevant here.

That's why it's important to 'see' that Rom 1:18 on into 2, is addressing both Jew and Gentile - not just the later verses which specifically mention Jews and their law. The key Paul is expounding is, the revelation that is given to ALL men, which, if they neglect it, will lead them to idolatry. (9 [That] was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. (John 1)

Look at what Jesus said: Matthew 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, [that] observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

John 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. 8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. 9 And they which heard [it], being convicted by [their own] conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, [even] unto the last:

23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins.

UntoBabes, so far although you have said some true things, the way they have been split into Jew v Gentile instead of Jew & Gentile, entirely explains the interpretation you've offered. I don't read Romans with that prejudice in my mind.

I could explain more about why I don't (from scripture), but I'll wait till you've replied, if you want to. Anyway, thanks for all the time you took to lay that out for me. It is appreciated.

13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

We have to to be careful here because Paul warns us that if we break one law we break the whole thing.

So what law is he telling us to be a doer of to be justified before God?

Could it be the, "law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus" hath made me free from the "law of sin and death".

For what the "law could not do" in that it was weak "through the flesh" God sending His own Son in the "likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, condemn sin in the flesh".

So, if the working out the law "through the flesh" was not possible, WHAT THEREFORE IS THE DOING OF THE LAW THAT CAUSES US TO BE JUSTIFIED IN THE SIGHT OF GOD?

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Paul MUST have been talking about a different law.

Hello UntoBabes,

I'm answering your next posts in this one.

What I meant by reminding them of the old covenant is just as the old covenant had it's own sacrifices, also the new does, but spiritual sacrifices instead.

For example in Rom 12: I He refers to living sacrifice ... '

I am not saying they are restricted to Gentiles but most common among Gentiles.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Mark 7:20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. 21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: 23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

Remember, Jesus was speaking to Jews only at that time.

When they did not obey God, they started practicing those sins as well and became worse.

Deuteronomy 13:6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which [is] as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; 7 [Namely], of the gods of the people which [are] round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the [one] end of the earth even unto the [other] end of the earth; 8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: 9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. 10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

It is clear from Rom 2: 17 that he is talikg to Jews.

Hypocrisy is to tell others to do something and not do it yourself.

Don't you think these verses also apply to Jews - Jews who had known who Christ was but alo refused to believe in Him (John 8 has a few)?

You asked me to reconsider:
Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified...'

Those verses are referring to the keeping (or not), of the Old Covenant. Yes, there is a spiritual principle about being obedient to 'the law' from one's heart, rather than merely as an outward observance, but this is precisely why Paul is showing in his thesis, that ALL men are UNable to keep the law to God's satisfaction. If Jews had been perfect and if the law had been perfect, it would have been a matter of rolling it out to the Gentiles - there would not have been a need for a better sacrifice [Jesus] for sin - A New Covenant.

It is the very nature of faith that produce a desire to live the law of God.

It is the very nature of faith that produce a desire to live the law of God.

A legalist may want faithless law, and a licentious may want lawless faith, but the only kind the Bible speaks of is the oxymoron one

It is the very nature of faith that produce a desire to live the law of God.

Hi UntoBabes,

Possibly you're making more work for yourself than necessary. I'm familiar with the content of Romans, and the exercise you're proposing seems unnecessary (imho).

In particular, I asked the question of you, because there is no need for us to use guesswork with each other, when plain speech will work wonderfully for communication ;-)

As a reminder from p9, your question:

I'm not quite sure what you have in mind when you ask, 'Why did he have to emphasize on things such as election, predestination, grace, and faith,…to the Gentile believers?'

Surely the beauty of Romans is that Paul shows how Abram was a Gentile before God's covenant with him, and so his faith before he was circumcised, could be counted as righteousness? The physical circumcision was a sign of the spiritual reality already established; just as under the New Covenant, circumcision of the heart is all that's required, God sending the Holy Spirit after our faith in Christ, in recognition of our new relationship through Him with the Father.

2 Thes 2:13b God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel,

1 Cor 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

2 Cor 5:18 And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech [you] by us: we pray [you] in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Sometimes I wish this forum had emoticons, especially the one that shows the little smiley skeleton coming out of the grave. I think of that one every time I see old threads dug up. If only......

. . . and Zeke answered, "LORD, (only) you know . . ." 8^)

Actualy many things said since the work 'hiatus' was exacted of me were what i had been waiting to say (until prompted). The Lord moves in mysterious ways (through you all). It floored me to see this thread arise today particularily (having just read through Romans again ... and the advice will be heeded, so 9 more times it is.

As for Is. 45, Ez. 18 and Jer. 18 . . . well there is far too much to even comment after that stint of study is complete. Much applies to this thread and much doesn't as well.

Because of naatmi's comments (thanks much BTW), in the research was found an interest in the Bible commentary by Matthew Poole, and greatly appreciate his straightforward most literal approach to the scriptures--which is quite contrary to his flowery speeched (and often inaccurate) contemporary Matthew Henry).

One comment only right now. . . and it's my mere opinion at that, so feel free to thrash these thoughts if they are not in conformity with God's Word. Correct me if you see error:

Free will is not free unless it is in serving Christ.

We think of 'will' as one solitary component in man, YET it's coinage has the flipside of perception.

How we percieve free-will in relation to predestination is based on how well we relate with God.

. . .to reiterate Rainman, "Does He know you?"

GOD BLESS US EVERYONE,

gregg

"You have been chosen to know the secrets about the kingdom of heaven, but others cannot know these secrets.

Notice after the word "chosen" He says "to know these secrets," and not, "from the beginning of time to receive eternal life and and not for the eternal damnation that God has chosen for others."

Any of the "unelect" today can also pick up a Bible and flip it open to Mathew 10 and "know these secrets."

Context.

Jesus Christ the righteous. He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. 1 John 2

I believe that we have free will. God could have made robots and programmed them to obey him, but I don't believe you can have a genuine relationship without free will.

God desires that all repent and turn to him.

I believe we have to do the repenting and turning to God. We can see in the gospels again and again that people had to BELIEVE for miracles to occur.

Jesus Christ will judge the world in perfect righteousness.

I'm packing my suitcase for a place none of us has been
A place that has to be believed to be seen...
(Bono - walk on)

I

What about a predestined free-will?

Phanetheus,

I don't know about predestined free will, my brain is not computing that concept right now.

I just hold on tight to God' s righteousness as a judge. I don't believe in a God that COULD save everyone, but chose to predestine only a few to be saved.

1Pe 1:2 'ELECT' ACCORDING TO THE "FOREKNOWLEDGE" OF GOD the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ

Rom 8:29 FOR WHOM HE DID "FOREKNOW", He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away His people WHICH HE "FOREKNEW".

GOD Foreknew what each human being would do with their GOD given "freewill" from before the foundation of the world.
He knew what Adam and Eve would do. That is why He is called "the Lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world."
He knew what Job would do. He knew how Abraham would respond to HIM. Every human being since Adam. And how each descendent of Abraham would react to Him. And each Gentile since, before the foundation of the world. He foreknew who would react to Him by "hardening" their own hearts against Him and His Word.
GOD even gave Israel charge to accept "the stranger" if he 'chooses' to join himself to The God of Abraham, His Word and His people.

'Those whom He foreknew' --- these verses cannot be erased from His Word, or explained away.

The "Elect" are those whom HE "Foreknew" would be "faithful unto the End" .... or their end. All of Scripture testifies of this - lest - we would never read admonitions nor find any "IF you will(s) or don't" or any "Ifs" at all in His Word.
We wouldn't need any warnings in the Old or New Testament at all, if He didn't grant every human being on earth a FREEWILL and "whosoever believeth in Him" = 'whosoever will' may obey His Word and be saved, in both Testaments.
"Whosoever" is found 93 times in the NT and it means "All/Any - who/which/that".
Search out, just that one word. GOD doesn't lie. Whosoever means, whosoever.

Who are warned of being 'cut off' from the olive tree in Rom 11? - Just for one example.

Someone had alluded that TSC 'seemed' to believe that GOD has elected/chosen some to eternal damnation (Limited atonement) despite and regardless of their GOD given Freewill - that is a very disturbing charge.

Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 FOR GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on Him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Calvin had gone so far as to say that a person could believe in Christ and live by His Word and yet find out on judgment day that he was not one of the "elect".
Where is "the assurance of our salvation" in that?

Forgive me if this grieves me so.

GOD Bless, until we meet Him Face to face.

PREDESTINATION IN FREE WILL

Why Predestined free will?

God tells and shows us both exist and are active:
in that order
and
at the same time.

To consider that it is either only predestination or free will is look at less than half of the picture. God has shown us example after example in the Bible that tell us it is not only predestination or only free will. When we (think we)believe and talk like it can only be one of them and not both together, we are turning our faces stubbornly away from God's very revelation to us. That is a very stiff-necked approach to God, other men, ourselves, and even the way the world turns. The one who lives in less then half the light God gives cuts themselves off from further and clearer understanding about how all this works in real life.

Rainman and i carried on a few correspondences months ago, and "election" being one issue, ever since then, i've been trying to think of a way to explain it simply and i'm still not there yet.

Naatmi's posts really got the wheels spinning here. After he gave the example of Jonah and Nineveh, and looking further towards the scriptures with this 'predestination or free-will?' perspective, everywhere looked, it appeared to be more and more like the both are present and active in every situation.

Until our moderator C. J. posted those words from 'The Prince of Preachers" at the top of this thread p.5, i thought i was a lone duck. . .and first proceeded to put foreward mnemonic analogies. Much is being better understood through the wide variety of these brought to forum by everyone participating in this thread; but i still can't get all of them together as one congruent working picture.
(maybe i need to read the works of that guy.)

One of the first posts (this thread) from here told there was no adherance to either Calvinism or Armenianism. I have not ever had problems with either Calvinists nor Armenians. They think they believe in either one or the other, yet both sides of the aisle cannot discount one another completely. They ask if i believe in predestination and i'll give a hearty "yep!", but that same hearty "yep!" comes when asked if i believe in free will. Other non-specific hints were given that i'm sure of both, but it was thought somebody has got to have something that will either correct me or set this issue straight once and for all; but now it's just like both of them have been smashed together so fast and hard they have become indistiguishable from one another. Through the course of everybodies fantastic cooperative participation in Brother Willy's thread, these two concepts have become not only fast(ened), but covered in tar and rolled in feathers.

The whole issue of two opposing sides ?
Two sides to one coin is a poor analogy.

It's more like God's predestination is the hand of complete foreknowledge
and free will is that glove worn to manifest both working in unison.
Often, the closer we look to God's guiding hand, the more the glove goes unnoticed.
Still, without the hand using the glove, the glove would be inanimate.

So, from our frame of reference, it seems we would not know anything about free-will without predestination and we would not know anything about predestination without free-will.

. . .(for we the sheeple know this at least,)
without death we will never know life. . .and still, everybody wants to go to heaven but nobody wants to die.

It was also first mentioned that to understand God's revelation to us about this, or anything else, we have to understand where our perspective stands in relation to God:
It's tainted, tattered and torn to say the least.

God says the precursor to knowing Him
in the very breathings of living he has LOANED us
comes through simply laying down of everything that makes us identify with this earth and disregard God.

"Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts and:
let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him;
and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: so shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands. Instead of the thorn shall come up the fir tree, and instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle tree: and it shall be to the LORD for a name, for an everlasting sign that shall not be cut off.
Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.

Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.

Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree. For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant; even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.

Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.
(Is. 55.6-56.8)

Talk about glorious wonderful amazing promises!
Praise God!

He's true and He honors His word above His name.

These are not promises of the past or for the future. These are the eternal promises of our Ancient of Days, the Alpha and Omega, Jesus Christ who never changes.

These promises always happen when we do what God tells us allowing Him to become a greater reality in our lives. When we believe and do what God says, we are seeking his face and He gives us a hand, His hand to lead and guide and direct our steps.

Do what this Word from Him says and it is done in our lives even as revealed here. Because He never changes these words ring true for all time into eternity.
(This is predestined freewill.)

We first read that back in The Garden our mother and father outsourced both this planet and the image given us to that primordial serpent, that murderer, the father of lies, our adversary: HATE hIM!

It was not until Thee second Adam came and gave up His life blood for us that we could most clearly see that He laid down His own nature and very life to whosoever will rest in the peaceful confidence from Him alone. . .

. . .but here's the one that sticks out to me,showing a quite pronounced example of what is intended in saying "predestined freewill."

Naboth had a vinyard growing right up next to king Ahab's castle in Syria, and Ahab coveted it to grow vegetables (or so he said). Ahab offered Naboth the choice of either a better vineyard or his vineyards value in cold hard cash.

The problem was that this was Naboth's inheritance passed on from generation to generation. These type things were first recieved from the hand of the LORD after the children of Israel had crossed the Jordan and followed His lead into the land flowing with milk and honey. Naboth told the king he could never just give up the family's inheritance.

Ahab went home quite unsatisfied. In fact, he was so sad and frustrated, he began pouting like a spoiled rotten brat. He went and laid down on his bed. When food was brought him, he turned away and refused to eat.

That evil wench of a queen Jezebel came and asked him what had him so upset he wouldn't even eat, so he told her. So She told him, "You rule Israel so eat and don't worry, be happy because I'll give you Naboth's vineyard."

Jezebel manipulated things to set Naboth up for his demise. At a feast honoring Naboth, through the false witness of two worthless men claiming falsehoods about Naboth, he was set up for the fall, and killed. . .
. . .and the vineyard somehow made it into Ahab's hands.
(isn't that just amazing?)

. . .but it's not the end of the account.

Yaweh's prophet Michaiah came to the castle and warned wicked king Abab that he would die in a battle.

There were then 3 years that passed without even a skirmish between Israel and Syria. Kinda' like the calm before the storm
(. . .kinda' like what's happening right now in the world)

Ahab had plenty of time to consider and at least get right with God before what followed those 3 peacefulyears; but, is this what we see in his actions that followed?

You see, inevitably eventually war did erupt.

Ahab tried to stay out of harm’s way and beat the prophecy. During His attempt to avert that prophecy
--and it looked like everything was going according to his (free)will--
a stray arrow found a chink in his armor
AND HE DIED JUST LIKE GOD HAD STATED.
(Talk about predestined freewill...)

Only God almighty could have taken into account the subtle shift in the wind or an accidental twitch of a soldiers arm with bow string drawn and arrow knoked. . . and all we can be definitely sure of definitely the haughty spirit of Ahab finally rising to the foretold occaison.

There are dreamers and schemers, prognosticators and planners
but then there's God who has already declared the end from the very beginning.

If you don't ever want to experience a sense of foreboding helplessness, drop you preconceptions. Forsake what you think will happen when you do whatever you choose to do. Drop it all so you will be free to know God.

Only then will He show you very clearly that He already holds your future in His hands. This also means that He has a plan for each and every one of us: things predestined for us to do
even if we can never understand anything but a very small portion of it.

Stretching beyond our current bounds of time and space, here and now it's the securest sensation knowing we are in the hands of someone who loves us so much:
He made everthing.
He knows everything.
He tells us if we just forget about what we think and what we want to do,
He will come to us and make His Word reality in our lives right here right now.

If but one moment, let's think on this:
He delivered His one and only Son to die for us so we can walk with Him back to The Garden. When we daily take up our cross and die: He is faithful and true to His unchanging Word, raising us to New and everlasting Life through His Spirit.

. . .and in this venue of predestined free-will, our Heavenly Father and His one and only Son, Jesus Christ chose to do this before the foundation of the world. . .

If this is not predestined free-will what would you call it?

Between what God has already seen and what we humans can only glimpse the tiniest portion of there is an abyss, and Jesus Christ is the only bridge. Through personal growth in Him, it has been realized that the closer we draw to Him, He shows us all about what we need to know how to live . . . and when needful, what's coming around the bend.

There are four servant songs in Isaiah, prophecies of and about Jesus Christ (and those who are His servants).

In Is. 42, there are some very telling things about God's place in whole predestined free-will scenario:
(PLEASE PAY SPECIAL ATTENTION TO vv. :

v. 1 --->'mine elect'
v. 4 --->God's plan
v.8&9-->God's perspective

1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.

3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.

4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.

5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

9 Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.

10 Sing unto the LORD a new song, and his praise from the end of the earth, ye that go down to the sea, and all that is therein; the isles, and the inhabitants thereof.

11 Let the wilderness and the cities thereof lift up their voice, the villages that Kedar doth inhabit: let the inhabitants of the rock sing, let them shout from the top of the mountains.

12 Let them give glory unto the LORD, and declare his praise in the islands.

13 The LORD shall go forth as a mighty man, he shall stir up jealousy like a man of war: he shall cry, yea, roar; he shall prevail against his enemies.

14 I have long time holden my peace; I have been still, and refrained myself: now will I cry like a travailing woman; I will destroy and devour at once.

15 I will make waste mountains and hills, and dry up all their herbs; and I will make the rivers islands, and I will dry up the pools.

16 And I will bring the blind by a way that they knew not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known: I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight. These things will I do unto them, and not forsake them.

17 They shall be turned back, they shall be greatly ashamed, that trust in graven images, that say to the molten images, Ye are our gods.

18 Hear, ye deaf; and look, ye blind, that ye may see.

19 Who is blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my messenger that I sent? who is blind as he that is perfect, and blind as the LORD'S servant?

20 Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening the ears, but he heareth not.

21 The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.

. . . and would anybody care to consider v.19-21 and take a stab at what is actually being said there?

Really Isaiah 42:1 says it all. Jesus Christ being God's elect, everything else everywhere for all time is secondary, all happening for this one purpose:
"Eyiah Asher Eyiah"
(loosely translated, "I AM as I have been and in all ways remain as I AM")

Shalom,

g

Thanks Jim,

Your comments being read, the post was reread.

It still seems kind of choppy.
So it wondered if some might somehow get the wrong impression, thinking it's only about God and not God in relation to His creation.

As well, there are times when God was the last thing on my mind and He rattled my cage, making unseen things very visible. . .so maybe the emphasis should be more about:
when we relate with God according to the way He percieves and does things, we are allotted more abundant life in Him (as promised).

It's the difference between walking with God or going our own way. We can do what we want, but is it the best way?

Shalom,

g

Well I have to say I agree with the doctrine of election when it comes to Isaiah 42!

Well I have to say I agree with the doctrine of election when it comes to Isaiah 42!

Haha! Me too actually. :)