WHEN DOES AUTHORITY GO TOO FAR???

"anyways He made the comment that only 2 opinions count! And That is: God's - and the pastors!"

brother, when i first read that, i almost laughed.

and then my soul asked this question, which has been brimming in me this morning; Do not men fear God?

how arrogant of that dear man. i hesitant to give an opinion,but does he not fear God?

i would be so reticent, if i was a pastor, to DARE even breath such foolishness, fore this ALMOST treads the line of the 2nd Commandment, "You shall have no other gods before Me".

God the Holy Ghost is already telling the answers, and you will hear, amen.

your last line:

"Hope we don't fall into the same trap."

Oh....to me, that is a Terrible thing to even contemplate.

and the word "fear" in relation to "Fear God", is not some witless, mindless quaking fear, but a fear/reverence of the Holiness, Majesty, Mercy of God....and our place in that economy, humble and meek, grateful, joyous, careful not to spurn So Great a Salvation, working out our own salvation with fear and trembling, fear and awe.

i could go on and on, but lets PRAY hard, we NEVER fall into that trap. the opposite of that trap, is death to self, and death to self is like the pressing out of an olive.....hence, Gethsemane...olive press.

to be pressed out, broken, is never a "fun time", but its necessary, dont ya think?

love, neil

So the question is: If we conclude such a statement is Gospel, true, vaild, and authentic - Where pray tell does that leave the rest of us? who aren't perhaps Ceo pastor figures - within the church?

Of course, you NEVER conclude this statement is Gospel true, because it is not. I am surprised when people actually ask this question.

First, let's stop calling something church which is not church.

God's authority never goes too far. Man's authority by definition has already gone too far when it usurps Christ.

Your statement is only true in Man's religious system but definitely not the Lord's system, if you want to call it that. I call it the Lord's family.

But if we read our Bibles we will see that this has been going on for a long time. The "leaders" bear rule by THEIR means, not the Lord's. The Lord's means are the means of a servant and not a hireling. Consider the following:

Jer 5:31 The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?

So many, love churchianity rather than christianity and they love for someone else to be over them and spoon feed them.

So, if you are going to submit yourself to an ungodly system, then you should play by their rules otherwise why are you joining yourself to them? If you are joining yourself to them with the premeditation of trying to change them, you and many others will lose out. There are over 15000 church splits a year in America. Many think they can join a church and try to change their system, but what eventually happens is that a split takes place. Even to go into man's system and cause division and a split is demonic. Just leave quietly if you are not able to stomach their system and ways of doing things. And why would you be able to stomach it?

I have seen many idealistic brothers think that they can change the religious system but it will never happen, it always fails and they are deeply disappointed and in many cases hurt and damaged along with many other people.

If you try to make it reflect the NT, you will be met with demonic forces of animosity and rejection and they will marginalize and ostracize you. Why? Because you are threatening their system and most importantly, their livelihood. The system is built on man's authority (pride) and not God's and the engine is mammon (greed). If you appear to threaten these two things, (man's authority and mammon), you will run into a brick wall at best and a fiery ordeal at worst that will cause you and your family and possibly many others much grief.

So, do only two opinions count as you put it? Well, in the religious system, absolutely!!! And you need to open your eyes, and understand that. Yep, the pastor's opinion and god's opinion. I am not surprised that the pastor actually said that. But that god that he is mentioning is not the Lord Jesus Christ. Because, Jesus is never welcomed in the religious system, just a false Jesus, "another Jesus".

I will not tell you what the religious system is. It is for you to identify it. I will only tell you that you will know it when man is ruling and mammon is the engine and you will also see it when there is not mutuality between all brothers and the sheep are being taken advantage of.

The other thing is that so many people actually love the rule of man. They love to have someone over them that they can see. (walk by sight and not faith) and they love to hear only good things.

Isa 30:10 Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:

Regarding the false "leaders":
Eze 33:31 And they come unto thee as the people cometh, and they sit before thee as my people, and they hear thy words, but they will not do them: for with their mouth they shew much love, but their heart goeth after their covetousness.

When you are being "lorded over" by man, these men are not in subjection to the Lord Jesus, and they are "governing" you in a tyrannical way.

I have often wondered why people who are supposed to know God's Word and have His Spirit dwelling in them, would subject themselves to man's tyranny in the name of Christianity? I think it is because we have a desire for fellowship and want to please God and we don't think there is anything else around. We have had traditions passed on to us by our ancestors telling us that the current form of Christianity is the way it should be.

I used to be frustrated at the sheep for allowing themselves to be taken advantage of and angry at the false shepherds, but the Lord showed me in His word in many places that the people actually love this type of rule (Jer 5:31), and that this is the way it has always been and will continue to be. But, in every generation God is always calling His people out of man's system.

The Lord just told me to relax that He allowed the religious system to exist to test men's hearts. What God is seeing today is that men are really just rejecting Him.

1Sa 8:5 And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.

1Sa 8:6 But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD.

1Sa 8:7 And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

Read the rest of Samuel. The Lord even says that their new "king" will take a tenth (tithe) of their riches and give to his officers and to his servants.

And he will take a tenth of your sheep (people) and ye shall be HIS servants. Yep, serve the CEO and his board of directors. Ye shall be HIS servants. That's what the word says, I did not make it up.

1Sa 8:18 And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the LORD will not hear you in that day. (Is this what you are doing right now, crying out?)

1Sa 8:19 Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, Nay; but we will have a king over us;

So, people get what they want and then they complain. Nothing has really changed, since the OT, eh? Same thing today.

This is the way it will always be in man's system, (the false church) where Jesus Christ does not rule, but rather Saul (the flesh).

When you live in the false church, you have to ignore many things in the Bible just to make all the things that are happening around you "fit". Because, there is no way you can justify so many things with the Word of God, so you have to ignore that part of the Word (cut it out) or rewrite it with man's traditions.

If you willing join yourself to Saul, then you are accepting his rule (so don't complain). If you go against the King, you will be "struck down". Or you may end up being an Absalom or a Joab. We don't want to be a Saul or Absalom or Joab, do we?

Why don't you be what God has called you to be? A follower of Him.

Again, I will not tell you what the religious system is. It is for you to identify it. I have told you some characteristics. But, there surely is one and the chief shepherd and bishop of the false church is Satan. Ever since Cain, we see parallel churches in the Word. From Genesis to Revelation, there is the true Church and the false church. Satan has a counterfeit for everything that God has.

The Word is a lamp unto your feet and a light for you path. The Word and the Spirit tell you everything you need. We just need to start being obedient.

Jesus life in us is authority. Each believer that is abiding (not modeling) in Christ has the authority of the Holy Spirit within them. We are not to submit to man carte blanche, but to the Lord Jesus in each believer as we recognize Jesus is in them.

Authority comes from receiving His life daily and abiding and submitting to Him. When we fail to abide in Him we have no authority because authority IS HIM. Abiding in Him, presupposes that we are submitting to Him, otherwise we are not truly abiding in Him. Abiding in Him is not doing our daily devotional or reading 5 chapters of the bible each day or "going to church".

We, the church, have such an incorrect view of what biblical authority is today and I think it is because we get part of our definition of it from the world. The other part comes from the Word. This is called "Mixture".

What the Bible calls it is leaven. Our view of authority is a hybrid definition of worldly and biblical terms. We do the same thing with the words "submit" and "rule". We only need the Holy Spirit's definition of these terms, not man's. And that is where so many problems in the church lie today: Mixture/Leaven - Mixing God's ways with man's ways which only create the doctrine of the Pharisees. Matthew 16:12

Man's definition of authority, submit and rule has then created a "ruling class" in Christendom. A privileged class in many respects.

No one has any authority in the Lord unless they come under (submit to)His authority. Even the centurion knew this.

Mat 8:9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.

And in the Kingdom of God it is not the kind of authority like the world where we "Rule over men" and tell this person to do that and that person to do this.

Many say that they are under God's authority and submitting to the Holy Spirit, but by their actions they tell a different story. It is a story much like this:

Mat 20:25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles (today's religious leaders) exercise dominion over them, and they that are great (leadership positions over men) exercise authority upon them.

Yes, "authority upon them". This is lording over God's heritage.

The authority the Lord Jesus gives us is not to exercise "authority UPON men" or exercise "lordship OVER men". We submit to the authority of Jesus in each Believer from the youngest to the oldest, not just certain individuals, but at all times we are always submitting to Jesus Christ, not to the "great ones", (see below).

Mar 10:42 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.

This is why many today don't understand the New Testament definition of authority. They have been taught that it represents men OVER other men in the church. That is the farthest thing from the truth of the Scriptures and what is demonstrated by the Lord, the Apostles and the early church.

The cemented mindsets we have regarding authority, submit and rule, continue to give "life" to the modern christian ruling class. And the ruling class perpetuates this thinking because it is good for them. It may not be good for you, but it is definitely good for them.

Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Mat 15:12 Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?

Mat 15:13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.

Mat 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

Jesus said, "Let them alone".

Consider the following verses.

Acts 20:29-31 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

II Peter 2:15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness

Jesus said He hated something and he said it twice. We should want to know about what Jesus made a point to say He hated (two times). I don't think I know of any other place where Jesus said that He actually hated someone's deeds and practices.

Rev 2:6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

Rev 2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.
Rev 2:15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.

Who are the Nicolaitans?
The root of the word Nicolaitans comes from Greek nikao, to conquer or overcome, and laos, which means people and which the word laity comes from. The two words together especially means the destruction of the people and refers to the earliest form of what we call a priestly order or clergy which later on in church history divided people and allowed for leadership other than those led by the spirit of the risen Lord. A good translation of Nicolaitan would be "those who prevail over the people."

This clerical system later developed into the papal hierarchy of priests and clergy lording over the flock. The Council of Trent stated, "If anyone shall say that there is not in the Catholic Church a hierarchy established by the divine ordination, consisting of bishops, presbyters and ministers, let him be anathema." It is not the question of the ministries but rather in the separation of them into a hierarchy over the people.

This very idea was taken over by the Protestants with their own corruption of leadership roles and coverings. The Church of Ephesus was commended for hating the deeds of the Nicolaitans. The wrong separation of the clergy from the laity is a great evil in God's sight and He hates the lust for religious power over others. There is an ungodly spiritual authority in the Church today, which is nothing more than the prideful spirit of control, manipulation, domination and intimidation and a rebellion of the rightful authority of God.

Faithful believers who have put on Christ Jesus, are all God's "laity". Peter exhorted us to:

Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not for filthy lucre but of a ready mind. Neither as being lords over God's heritage but being examples to the flock. And when the chief shepherd shall appear, you shall receive a crown of glory that fades not away.

Shepherds serve the sheep but the wolves that clothe themselves with so-called leadership and spiritual authority serve themselves, thinking that they serve God, in essence, this makes them false christs. Early church leaders were established as overseers, not a ruling hierarchy.

When ungodly authority is in place it is grievous.
Pro 29:2 When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.

When authority goes too far is when you've just went beyond my space and your nose has touched mine.

That's what I was trying to say, Snuf. Thanks. :-)

i've just read your first post, and i have to tell you, that it is a clear, concise, annointed word, prophesy, forthtelling, that has been brimming in my heart, but i couldnt articulate it as well as God the Holy Ghost enabled you to, especially unpacking that 1st Samuel passage.

i'm not saying that to tickle your ears, God forbid, but to tell you, that post is a MESSAGE, a "sermon" if you will, sorely needed to be spoken, but writing it serves for now.

Man did not reveal this to you, only God the Holy Spirit can do as such.

as an aside, of all the meetings i've been to, one sticks out, and that was where the pastor was prevented from attending, by a 75 ton boulder falling on a two lane mountain highway, and 25 saints waiting in a house Church for him. He's a good Godly man, but we had Business to transact with God, meaning that meeting was where my closet prayer partner was headed out into the 10/40 mission field, with his wife and two toddlers, and during a prior session of prayer with him, i was led to ask him if i could wash his feet, before my bro boarded that aeroplane. of course, his "yes and amen" was immediate. we were going to miss each other.

like good little obedient's, we of course informed the pastor, what we intended to do, should the Spirit give the Leading, ON THE DAY. Now this pastor, is a good Godly man who i love deeply, but his response was that he wanted to hold a "teaching" about foot washing, then we would wash feet.

my bro and i just grieved silently, because even though i bought all the "fixing's", black plastic tub (the kind you use for paint) several bottles of nice liquid soap, a pack of 12 new cotton towels, and two plastic ice tea pitchers for warm water, our heart was that this foot washing would only happen, IF and WHEN, God the Holy Spirit said it would, if at all.

wasnt going to be printed up on some bulletin,
"11:15-12:00 pastor teaches from John on foot washing
12:01-12:30 foot washing"

Now my bro, his parents were missionaries from a parachurch organization, and he had plumb had it of churchianity. i had been following Jesus for about 3 years, and could discern certain pro forma aspects of "religion"....so we were pretty grieved, but said nothing....to keep the shalom.

the night before the meeting, the mother of all rainstorms hits our mountain area, continues all night long, mudslides, road closures, a sad soul bound by liquor drowned in the creek, now a raging torrent. Yet when we got to the house, it was PACKED with 25 people, but no pastor. ten minutes before he drove up the mountain highway, here's what happened:

http://www.malibutimes.com/articles/2005/01/12/news/news1.txt

actually it was a 300 ton boulder, and when it became apparent we had no pastor, my brother and i sprung into action, we had been talking for years about a type of meeting, where Jesus would lead the meeting and we would all "worship share", meaning one person at a time could share, as led by the Spirit, could share a testimony, a Bit of Scripture, a prayer, a song.

i explained this to everyone, they were in aqreement, and my opening prayer was to ...humbly, ask Jesus to Pastor this meeting...and before i could say amen, the very air just shifted.

There was no disorder, disharmony, confusion, The Holy Spirit led this meeting, and It was Precious. Folks weeping, saints on their faces, the very atmosphere was charged and saturated with God, songs worshiping Him, sung from heart memory, no instruments....prayers breathed up to Heaven, everyone of one accord. Jesus was leading, and i cant even begin to describe the Sweetness of His Glorious Precense.

...and then He led me to ask my beloved brother, "may i wash your feet?"......we laid hands on the whole family, and prayed God's blessing and mercy over them to venture forth far away to be Salt and Light, preaching the Gospel in the far lands. once the family had their feet washed, God did His Work, and 25 people had their feet washed, men washing men's feet, women washing women's. No man told us to do it this way, decently and in order, God the Holy Ghost told us what was right. Words werent even spoken while this ordinance was happening, the air was that Thick with the Spirit of God.

....and then we were done, because Jesus wrote the benediction on our hearts. We then had a wonderful potluck meal together, while the storm raged outside. We all just marveled together at the Love of God for His children.

all the saints there, still to this day, talk of that meeting. My brother and his family still labor for Jesus in a far land. i miss him. i've never been to a meeting like that since, but i have Faith.

the Revival will not be televised. Thank You Jesus.

In Jesus' love, neil

The greatest of Servants is God.

That is why He is lifted up and exalted.

Jesus said, "he that humbles Himself shall be exalted."

That is what makes God so different than all the gods, all the other religions.

God humbled Himself to walk with Adam. He was way up there and then He came way down here to visit a creature that He made in His image.

Then He comes to Abraham and whispers a covenant with Him. God who is a God of Gods that has no need of nothing, draws up a covenant with a lowly man. His purpose, to finally take up His abode with man through the merits of Jesus Christ.

Truly what is man that He is mindful of us?

God who was in Christ Jesus humbled Himself and healed people according to their faith. He lowered Himself and sat with sinners and ate with them and increased bread and fish to serve others.

I am amazed at His humility, just amazed.

"your nose has touched mine."

oh c'mon now!!! you dont wanna rub noses, eskimo style?

(teasing) neil

And He washed their stinkin feet with love. He was not holding His nose. That is our God!

And He washed their stinking feet with love. He was not holding His nose. That is our God!

How great is our God
How great is His name
How great is our God
Forever the same
He rolled back the waters
Of the mighty Red Sea
And He said, "I'll never leave you,
Put your trust in Me"

Two rules (there are many more) that we should follow when interpreting Scripture are:

1. We should not interpret God’s Word by our experiences, but rather subject all of our experiences to God’s Word.
2. Another rule we should follow when reading the Bible is to avoid using only one Scriptural reference to establish a Biblical truth. When discussing how to handle a dispute with a fellow Christian, Jesus said...

"But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established." (Matt 18:16 KJV)

While the topic in Matt. 18:16 is different, you will find that the Bible treats the truth found in its own pages with this same principle. Every truth is supported with at least two and usually more Scriptural references (witnesses) in order to clarify its meaning.

The "obedience" issue covered by Hebrews 13:17 is no different. Yet, you find many spiritual leaders in the modern church that use this reference as a kind of "indisputable mandate" for us to obey everything they teach without question. After reviewing all the Scriptural "witnesses" you discover that the New Testament does not support this extreme view anywhere and the Holy Spirit explains quite well (to the person that is looking at the whole counsel of God) what Heb 13:17 means. It is even easier to understand when you have truly Godly people in your lives.

Of course the ecclesiastics always teach you that all major doctrines have many supporting verses, but they don’t apply that to their doctrine of authority or any other man-made doctrine of theirs. They just go ahead and establish that doctrine (of man) based on Heb 13:17.

The first thing we can learn from the Scripture verses quoted in this post is that Jesus never intends for his people to give blind obedience to anyone. And that is supported many, many times in Scripture. Acts 17 comes to mind regarding the Bereans. Even though Paul was teaching them, they did not blindly receive what he said, but searched the scriptures to "see if these things were so".

It obviously pleased the Lord in Revelations 2:2 that the church of Ephesus "tested" apostles and found them to be liars. That's pretty strong language. Do you know of many "churches" that allow this kind of scrutiny toward those in charge? I don't. When you consider this together with the warning Jesus gave in Matt. 7:15-16 about false prophets and testing their fruits--and you have solid evidence that the command "Obey those who have the rule over you" is not an imperative or a mandate to give unquestioned obedience.

Also, when you consider the instruction Jesus gave his disciples about not using a "dominion over" type of authority (Matt. 20:25-28)--and later Peter's instructions to certain ministers of the Gospel about not "lording it over" God's people but being examples to the flock--all doubt should be laid to rest regarding Heb 13:7 and Heb 13:17.

Pastoral authority takes credit for what the word of God does when we misunderstand Hebrews 13:17

Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you. (Hebrews 13:17, KJV).

This verse--or rather the first half of this verse--when taken out of context--and combined with other words that are simply not here (authority--pastor)--has been used to establish a scripturally incorrect form of church government. This “taking out of context” has been used to lead people into the concept of "pastoral authority"--"submitting to spiritual leaders"--"submitting to authority"--"obeying Godly rule"--"Obey them that are have the rule over you"---Most of us are "under" someone--we all need to be "under a pastor"--etc--etc.

But what this verse really says, when we take it in context and define the words by the Bible itself, and NOT BY OUR EXPERIENCE--we will realize that this verse tells us something quite wonderful--

It says really-- we should "obey" (give heed to--listen to)--them that serve us or minister to us (have the rule--Greek: hegeomai--which Jesus defines as service in Matthew 20, Mark 10 and Luke 22)--and "submit"--(cooperate with) them---as they give us the word of God (account--logos) which will benefit our souls.

This is why, you can listen to almost any Bible teachings--from almost any source--and it is the Word of God coming through that person that will benefit you.

The problem is that man has traditionally taken credit for the work of the Word of God. "Pastoral authority" takes the credit for what the Word of God accomplishes. The incorrect teaching of "submitting to authority" comes in and takes credit for the benefit that we receive when we listen to (obey) the Word of God as it is taught to us by another Christian who is serving God (again--"have the rule" = "service"!!) by teaching us.

“Pastoral authority” takes the credit for what God's word does. And the average Christian gets confused. Many, many Christians believe it is their "submission to authority" that is what benefits them---but this is a misunderstanding based on listening to others and not reading and studying God’s Word for yourself. It is the operation of the wrong kingdom.

Jesus tells us that it is the kingdom of the Gentles that operates in his specific way--

"And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors." (Luke 22:25, KJV).

It is not the authority of the pastor--or the authority of Christian leadership which benefits us--it is the Word of God coming through that person which benefits us.

"Submitting to authority" is not in the New Testament and it should not be the operating government within the church.

The Government is on His shoulders and we are governed by the Holy Spirit not man. In Him we live and move and have our being and we have mutuality with one another, preferring one another and serving one another in love. This is how our Living Head, the Lord Jesus Christ leads us. Why in the world do we need two Heads if the Holy Spirit is leading us to walk in the Spirit and love one another? Another “head” only brings confusion by scrambling your spiritual bearings. You find yourself listening to two Heads as it were. And these two heads are never in sync.

This is one of the biggest problems in Christendom today and that is why we always keep saying that it is indeed a man-made Pharaseeical system. We have been taught that only Rome has usurped the place of Jesus Christ on earth, but the Lord’s rule (and yes it is appropriate to say His rule), in His children’s lives is almost non-existent, because another one has taken His place. The "modern Pastor" who we are told to submit to has taken the Lord’s place. Read what I said about 1 Samuel 8, where the people wanted a king. They did not want the Lord as their King. When man takes the Lord’s place in your life, there is always oppression. Read 1 Samuel 8, very slowly.

I have known few Shepherds (I can count them on one hand) that lay down their life for the sheep and serve them with God's Word, Intercession and by example and never, never, never took a salary. They lived by Faith. They taught living by faith so I guess they thought they should probably be the first to demonstrate what that looks like.

It kept them dependent on God and teaching the truth without fear of offending anyone lest they not tithe or leave the church.

Joh 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

Very nice ad hominem, Ginny.

Actually, quite slick.

I pick corn on Sabbaths, too.

Makes sense

Well, I caught that before you removed it. You replied to my comment about "picking corn on Sabbaths" and you said, "Makes sense". If you weren't joking that tells me much more about you.

You know Ginny, I may not go back as far as you do, I only beheld the Vietnam protests from afar and I am glad I did. I don't believe the Lord teaches pacifism ("peaceful" protesting or rebelliousness against God placed authority - Romans 13), even if it (the authority) is wrong. The Lord teaches non-resistance as can plainly be seen in Matt 5 and many other parts of the NT. I see in the Halloween post that you are 61, so that would definitely put you in the middle of the Vietnam protests.

Most will not catch the fact that you are attempting to marginalize the speaker (me) and attempting to diminish the content of my posts by leveling an accusation of "rebelliousness" against me regarding all authority (govt, schools, society, workplace, church). I am sure you probably don't even mean this or see that, this is what you are writing.

Because in text messages it is always quite hard to actually pin point someone's attitude, especially when the posts are about exposing an ungodly and unjust system. Those that trust in that system will always be emotional and seek to protect it.

I am, under several types of the authorities that you mention (government, school, workplace, society, etc), and I am mutually submitted to my sisters and brothers in Christ. As I said, I get along quite well with authorities that God has put in place (Rom 13).

I do however recoil (and so does the Holy Spirit) at ungodly authority that seeks to control and manipulate and take the Lord's place in His children's lives and I do not willingly put myself under such. That would be sinning against the Lord and time and time again throughout the entire Bible, He tells us how wroth that makes Him. This must be the "rebelliousness" that you detect, because in every other aspect of my life, I am submissive (cooperative). I pay my taxes, respect my employer, pay my mortgage etc, etc.

When our idols are attacked, it is natural to protect them. However, it is spiritual to tear them down from the high places in our hearts.

In the Bible, no one ever reacts in a good way when their idols are being attacked.

If I were to make a guess, I would say that this is what got under your skin.

"This is one of the biggest problems in Christendom today and that is why we always keep saying that it is indeed a man-made Pharaseeical system. We have been taught that only Rome has usurped the place of Jesus Christ on earth, but the Lord’s rule (and yes it is appropriate to say His rule), in His children’s lives is almost non-existent, because another one has taken His place. The "modern Pastor" who we are told to submit to has taken the Lord’s place. Read what I said about 1 Samuel 8, where the people wanted a king."

I don't believe anyone on this thread is attacking anyone. It could be interpreted that way (and it always usually is when idols are attacked), but what I see more of is an ungodly system being exposed.

NOT BY OUR EXPERIENCE

It was one big RoLLer CoaSTER Experience.

It's not just an intellectual knowledge of the word of God, it's experiencing God.

I mean really. We take God coming into us and abiding in us as a theological conclusion instead of a reality. What was never done in the Old Testament has been made real in the New, Christ in you the hope of glory, that is an experience!

Paul experienced Christ on the road to Damascus, where was his biblical proof that such a thing ever occurred in scripture?

We could say, "Paul, I like to believe you, but since there is no scripture to back up your experience, we have to conclude that you fancied the whole thing up."

When Paul was relating his story to King Agrippa, he used his experiences coupled with the word to show that Jesus was indeed Christ. It's a matter of believing Paul's experience and believing that Jesus indeed showed Himself to Paul and by faith receiving Paul and Christ as true faithful witnesses and the hope that the person put their faith in Jesus.

When God touches man, it's an experience that you'll never forget. I am not talking about barking like dogs, hissing like snakes, or roaring like elephants, we go to the zoo for that stuff.

I am talking about experiencing God.

Hi Oracio,

By the way I just updated my last post in this thread.

And don't worry, I know myself quite well, so I don't take it as flattery.

My first reaction is to say that the book has already been written (Bible). When I read it, I see all the time, left and right, what has already been written. People don't understand the Word because the Lord does not have their heart, and therefore a veil remains over their spiritual eyes.

I think that many Believers don't get anything out of the OT because they have a veil over their eyes and don't understand that the transition between the OT to the NT is one of outward to inward. Today's Christianity is in large part, outward.

The OT is critical to understanding all the doctrines of the NT, our walk, church life, authority, etc, etc. Jesus and the Apostles drew from the OT scriptures, constantly. There is a saying that basically says, "the New Testament explained is in the Old Testament contained".

Therefore when people see "wicked people sacrificing children to idols on high places" in the OT, they don't understand what that means today in their own lives. They don't think it applies to them. They think that it still means, wicked people, sacrificing (killing) children to idols high places. There is a huge disconnect and lack of understanding and I see this as creating many problems in Christianity.

Here are some things that people don't understand what they mean today. All I have to do is open up to one chapter. Most people do not know how to interpret these things in light of their walk today. Everything in the OT is something today, but no one is being taught what they have transitioned to. It is basically a veil on their eyes and I will tell you why later in this post.

land
"kill all the men, women and children"
high places
idols
idols under every green tree
walls
lofty mountain top
adulteress
slaying the children in the valleys
beasts of the field
kings and princes
birds of the air

Maybe someday the Lord will lead me to do that. I think that there are so many more capable people, though.

Ginny thinks I am being real hard, but I am milk toast compared to what I read in God's Word.
Check Isaiah 56:10-12

Here is another for instance. The Amorites, Jebusites, Hittites, etc. etc, were all characterized by a predominant sin or you could say demonic stronghold. Today we think that these wicked clans are all gone. But what we fail to realize is that the demon principalities that influenced and controlled these clans never died and they are still here today doing the same thing they did in the OT and ravaging the Church. Demons don't get promoted, they have the same job forever. Spirit of lust, anger, murder, adultery, gossip, etc, etc.

More than a book, we need to ask God for discernment today. Discernment is given according to the measure that we are willing to obey His Word and come under His authority and rule. The reason that there is such a veil over Christian's eyes today and they cannot discern the battle, don't trust each other and are attacking one another is because they have placed themselves under their own king (man). When you do this, you become blind in the spiritual sense and the enemy knows this. You take your orders from man and not from God, now. All other kings (spiritual leaders) are not as important as your king (and that goes for King Jesus).

Too many Christians have their own king today and not the KING.

The Key to understanding God's Word is to come to it with your whole heart and determined to not be joined to anything else in your heart but Him.

If you don't come to the Word of God with your whole heart, determining to tear down idols that the Holy Spirit shows you, then YOU ARE JUST GOING TO HAVE A RELIGIOUS EXPERIENCE.

And there is a lot of that going on today.

It is a age old trap of Satan.

Just reiterating.

The Key to understanding God's Word is to come to it with your whole heart and determined to not be joined to anything else in your heart but Him.

If you don't come to the Word of God with your whole heart, determining to tear down idols that the Holy Spirit shows you, then YOU ARE JUST GOING TO HAVE A RELIGIOUS EXPERIENCE and you will not have discernment. A veil will remain over your spiritual eyes. You will have no understanding and will stumble in the light of day. You will not see the battle and eventually you will be destroyed because you refused to get rid of the idols in your heart.

If you refuse the leading of the Holy Spirit and want to be led in some other direction, you will be a prey for the beasts of the field and the birds of the air.

That's Gospel, my friends.

And Satan is going about his business. Nothing new under the sun.

More than a new book, or new sermon, what will really help the church is if they come to the Lord with their whole heart.

if we allow everyone to "participate" and share we might have chaos or heresy or a watering down of sound doctrine, because only a special class of Christians should be allowed to share from God's Word."

And that would be the "ruling" class. The ones that have the Holy Spirit, right?

There is most definitely a place for teaching, but it is not the rule. Today, we have gone so far to the other end of the pendulum that there is a drastic need for 1 Cor 14 meetings because the Church as a whole does not know anything about how to function together as a family unless it is part of some activity or program. But they do nnot know how to be led by the Holy Spirit in a gathering unto the Lord. They only know how to listen to one man preaching. They actually draw their life from that man. It is a very deceptive thing and they would never admit it or even believe it.

They have been fed a spirit of fear (how convenient for the ecclesiasticals to do this) about particapatory meetings, citing heresy and chaos. Well, they are speaking out of ignorance and even manipulation. Ignorance because if they had ever been in a particapatory meeting, they would see the built-in checks and balances that God has created in His family when everyone's voice is honored. Manipulation, because, it does not serve their end. If people found out that they actually could gather around the Lord (not just a phrase) and see Him, touch Him and hear Him in their midst they would leave man's system. Come to think of it, that is exactly what they are doing.

That is not normal in God's family. And, I might add, it is not normal in a human family. We want our kids to grow up as functional/mature adults. We don't want them to be dependent on some other man and always asking them how to live their lives.

On the contrary, when we see a father, who is controlling his wife and family to the point where they have no voice we say he is being very legalistic and patriarchal. We fathers and mothers know that, that is not a healthy sign when a father tells his kids, even when 20 years old, what to do and how to do it, and who to marry and when to marry.
(Sorry, Mr. Gothard).

Praise the Lord, He is alive and able to lead us and Father us, and counsel, guide, instruct, shepherd, comfort, etc, etc. And all that He does for us and in us we share with each other.

Do you know the story of Mephibosheth? Let me change it around a bit.

I thought it was so nice and caring that David not only made a place for Mephib at his table, but then he also spoon fed him every meal.

Mephib, you are not at my table to share or talk, you are just here to make me feel noble and let me spoon feed you because you don't have the manners and etiquette of a King's household, so I will always be feeding you. And of course Mephib gets real use to that and loves it. Actually, he may not love it at all, it's just that he has no choice. This is the "kings" house. And that's the problem today. We need to get out of the "kings" house and get into the KING's House.

Thank you JESUS!! We don't have to be polished and eloquent and we are part of the KING'S Household!

i must say in truth aand love that i find your response to Pilgrim, most troubling:

"You are saying so many things that are right, but there is an attitude in your posts I find very troubling...it reminds me of the attitude that was so strong during the Vietnam War era that gave rise to the hippie movement where all forms of authority were challenged and considered suspect. This mindset opened the door to challenge all forms of authority whether it be in the church, government, schools, homes, society, workplace.
I remember this quite well because it was my generation that did it.

Now this mentality has come around again...."

is what you wrote, and i ask you this question in trepidation, because it involves worldly geopolitics, but it also involves the sins of man, AND national sins, but in the light of Truth, i must ask it, because it involves "authority"....and how authority sqaunders their moral currency.

why do you think it was, that the youth of that era, "hippies" as you term them, "challenged" and "considered suspect" "all forms of authority" in that era?

Could it have been that the youth of that era were able to see thru the lies, murder, and hypocrisy foisted upon them as to why we smashed the land of Vietnam? and in the process, 58,000 of our own children killed, 2 million Vietnamese murdered, men, women children...and for what?

It is now proven that President Johnson LIED to the American people, as to what really transpired in the Gulf of Tonkin in 1964. It is now historical fact, that Ho Chi Minh wrote 7 letters to President Truman, where Ho commended the US for defeating the occupying Japanese forces, and begged him to allow Vietnam to be free of their pre-ww2 French colonialists, to determine their own independence. True, Ho was a communist, but he was not beholden to the Soviet Union, right after WW2, Ho was a Vietnamese nationalist, first and foremmost, but instead President Truman didnt even respond, and instead allowed the French to re-seize their "colonial possession", subjugating a people who's only wish was to be out from under the yoke of foreign oppression, whether it be japanese or french. Isnt that the freedoms we desired in 1776?

and you don't think our young people could discern the foulness of these lies? Lies that were given at every level of our government. and once "authorities" squander their currency by falsehoods, our children are become disillusioned, especially when many "leaders" in the church, serve as cheerleaders to provide spiritual covering to the very sin of conquest and murder, under the rubric of fighting "godless communism"?

which in the final analysis, collapsed at the Hand of God, excepting of course, the peoples republic of China, who now make all the consumer "stuff" we buy, filling our stores, they buy our bonds.

Of course, such hellish sin-soaked authority is to be considered "suspect", as such lies, deceit and murder continue to this very day.

as much as we submit ourselves to rigorous self examination in the Holy Ghost, should not these backslidden, corrupt, fleshly religious institution do the same?

yes, but will they, or do they enjoy the "best seats at the table" more? the praise of the "crowd" more?...to be a "friend of herod" more?

you know the answer to that.

they are marked for destruction, for fire, just as this nation is marked for destruction, for not only the sin of casting their children into the fire(abortion), or for men and women having sexual appetites contray to what God deemed right, but also for adopting the national soulset of babylon, conquest, subujgation, theft and murder, worshiping a flag, worshiping weapons,and having the witless sin of wrapping Jesus in this flag.

If we are going to call sin out in the sqaure, call ALL national sin out, and repent of it all.

But the most hideous of all, is that we've become a nation that has fashioned a "golden calf" in place of God. we worship money, things, stuff to buy, comfort, and as you see now, 2010, God is breaking that golden calf in front of our eyes, we, as nation have lost our Bearings, and God will salt us with fire.

So if young people, some not knowing Messiah, can see the lies and hypocrisy of "authority", we who are in Christ are tasked by God, even more, to challenge the darkness of man's vile sinfullness, with fearlessness and Truth, not to give covering to it....and that includes any authorities, who play games with Jesus.

if this seemed like a political post, you've read my heart wrong. Whether it be in my own life, our nations lifes, our church life, be fearless, and fear not death, to shout out from the rooftops the totality of sin.

the north american evangelical church has failed the LORD grievously in this, for many have fornicated with babylon, and drank of the cup of that foul whore. For that we all pay.

Yep, authority in and of itself is not holy. All the kingdoms and authorities of this world exist at the behest of God. Even the religious "authorities". But the religious authorities are also part of the world system, Babylon.

God raises His children to think! And the first thing that He tells us in order to make us good thinkers is to love Him with all our heart and have no idols before Him. He teaches us that the fear of man is a snare and to seek His honor and not man's. That will free you up to be a good thinker and ask questions. The word WHY is a good word. More of us should ask WHY.

God's makes thinkers and lifts them up from being sheeple.

Interesting, that out of the Vietnam war protests, the Jesus people movement was birthed. The Holy Spirit surely was moving in people's hearts. I was born-again in 1977 and spent my early years in Berkeley, CA. I was privileged to meet with ex-hippies, moonies, krishnas and tarot card readers.

But by and by, the enemy brought the church back in under the thumb of man. How can this be? Oh, so tragic and sad.

We now call church which is not church and we call Jesus who is not Jesus. Do we have any idea who the real Jesus is and what the real church looks like? Brothers and sisters, let us contend earnestly.

The accusation was, you are not part of a church with
"mature spiritual leadership" and so they joined and slowly but surely became disillusioned with man's system.

I was thinking just now, as I was putting a coat of stain on my deck, that when you are part of a group of believers where mutuality exists and everyone is equal, (that is on the same plane) then there really is no chance for one man to take over and lead everyone astray. Yet, the opposite is propagated to the masses.

For each one is head of their household and when they come together there is no other Head but Christ.

It is a spurious accusation to say that house churches will go into error.

Now, I will grant you that house churches and any other type of gathering, that gather unto a leader other than Jesus will go into error, just like the IC. I can name very good movements down through the last 33 years that gathered unto a man and everyone thought it was good, but it ended up in error.

So, let's be clear, we are not talking about duplicating the institutional church in the living room. We are talking about new wine skins, not patching old ones.

I hope by now everyone knows that we are talking about the Lord Jesus by His Holy Spirit having His rightful place in the midst of the Church, no clergy/laity distinctions and we are all brethren.

This is a foreign concept to most, I understand. Please don't react, though. I don't want anyone to receive anything unless the Lord confirms it in His Word and by His Spirit to you.

No one should ever receive anything from a man, unless those conditions are met.

God bless everyone,
Pilgrim

Ginny, don't worry about it. I have not taken offense. I understand how you may think I am rebellious. I am sure there are some areas in my heart that are still dark and the Lord has not shown me them, yet. I trust He will.

But on this subject, I don't think I am rebellious. I have friends that "go to church", and nothing leaks or seeps out of me regarding the Institutional Church when I am around them. We center on Jesus. I know that if one is "leaking" then they usually have a problem with whatever they are leaking about.

In this forum, it has been a blessing to have the freedom to talk about such important issues. Obviously, there are people that are at a place in their lives where they are able to hear and able to see and they want this discussion.

I certainly welcome the other side of the discussion and as always, I look for all ideas to be supported by the preponderance of scripture.

In His Love,
Pilgrim

Like I said, there is a lot said here that is true, but I feel uneasy about the anti-structure mentality as expressed on this thread....it is like throwing the baby out with the bath. I am 63 YO and have seen the course rebellion takes and it is frightening. Just do not let it impact you.

Whoa Ginny, you got to lighten up.

We are talking about ungodly authority versus godly authority. Remember?

Godly authority does have structure. And yes, ungodly authority has it's structure, too. They are very, very different. It is clear that you are not interested in looking into what might be a bad structure and how is a good structure defined and how does God by His Spirit establish and give life to His church.

We are not calling for the abolishment of any kind of structure, but rather trying to see what Godly structure in the Spirit looks like not how man defines it.

Is that ok with you if we continue to talk about these things?

Can we stop all the ad hominems about communist party, fornicators, peace churches and social activism.

You sound very political. Are you? Do you look down on homeschoolers, too?

Brother, youth are known for their idealism. We had it as well. But life has demonstrated that idealism must give way to realism and the TRUTH of the Gospel as taught by the Word. We need structure, we need elders who can help the weak amongst us. Read the book of Acts: the apostles appointed elders after founding a church in any community. God provided structure for the OT saints and also for us in the NT. Timothy and Titus both teach us thus.

Sister, realism is the Spirit of God ruling in our midst. This is something I don't think you know about. You only know about man's rule.

I am 63 YO and have seen the course rebellion takes and it is frightening.

I really feel sorry for you. You are driven by so much fear, in this world and in the church. Is this really what you want in your life? This is the fruit of man's rule. FEAR. This is surely not the fruit of the Holy Spirit in your life. Ginny, let it go. Trust the Lord even in a conversation that you don't agree with, just trust the Lord. He has everything under control. If we are wrong, we will not bring forth any fruit.

Your fear causes you to categorize us into these groups that scare you. If you only knew that what we are talking about is not rebellion but pure devotion to Christ. But, I know how you are interpreting this thread. You are interpreting it through your fears.

pilgrim777, is this "anti-structure" mentality really what you or other like-minded believers advocate?

No Oracio. Not at all. Ginny's fears are causing her to be all over the map and she is making false assumptions left and right without even conversing with us. It might help her if she would try to ask a question.

Of course in the big show, there is no discussion, just sit down and be spoon fed. There is a lot of talking for sure but it is always AT YOU, not with you.

Ginny, why don't you take a chill pill and sit out for awhile until you can actually converse with us. You know, discuss, ask questions, rather than make outlandish statements.

Your picture of me must be one of a person that wears a army field jacket, smoking pot, with a Jesus patch on my shoulder, looking for something to bomb. Oh yeah, and I storm into the Institutional church on Sundays and bring down hell fire on the preacher.

It would be comical if you weren't so serious.

where do i begin? My heart is so grieved, i feel no profit from even continuing dialogue, because i feel that you only see what you want to see, or see what will not make your worldview uncomfortable, or allow you to question it all, via the Ministry of the Holy Spirit.

thats what i garner from your words.

as you responded:
"If you notice, I said that all authority was challenged. You alluded to the political world in which the hippies challenged the prevailing government.

This did happen, but it was only ONE area in which the hippes challenged authority."

i didn't "allude" to anything, i was very direct as the "prevailing government" was awash in sin, murder and hypocrisy, which was the shame and horror of this prevailing government bringing its mind-boggling power and force of arms to crush a nation of rice farmers, who possed no threat to us at all, and in the process, 58,000 of my brothers in uniform were killed, along with 2 million Vietnamese, and for what?

i defy you, on this forum, to proclaim that is not national corporate sin, which God will hold us accountable for. only "bested" by the 40 million children aborted in the US.

i defy you to proclaaim this wicked exercise in murder, known as the Vietnam war was not a national sin.

When the likes of that happen, it consumes EVERY aspecct of national life in America, its just not "one area".

and Ginny, when i discuss such, please, give me facts and dates, not this:

"If the hippies were as sincere in their opposition then why did they take to the streets and bomb buildings, riot? Neil, these people were not consistent in their philosophy. They did not practice what they preached. They preached peace, but did they promote it? "If you did not give in to our demands, we will bomb your buildings, take to the streets and riot!" And they did it, too. Get what I am saying?"

no...i dont get what you're saying, because it has no basis in reality. Anti-war protesters, many older folk were deeply committed to non violent protest, David Dellinger and Rennie Davis, two of their leaders, took to the streets, with other young people at the 1968 Democratic Covention, where they were beat, on televison, in front of the whole nation for merely exercising their constitutional right to protest a wrong..the kind of wrong where people were dying by the thousands daily...in the "name of freedom and the american way".

and this is not national sin?

i could write more, but i'm so grieved, that this wonderful thread has been hijacked, and is not testifying to the Glory of God.

have no fear about my walk with Jesus veering in rebellion and "impacting me", When you refer to others, who's souls God covets as "these people", it would be my humble suggestion, to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling in personal work before the Throne.

neil

Really, I did not know that? Ginny, If I am now unbecoming to you, I sure would like to know what you thought was becoming of me.

Now, dear sister, You are the one that mentioned what you were frightened of and I did not think I was attacking you. But it is clear since you are offended that you saw it that way. So, I have offended you, and I am deeply sorry and I apologize to you and the entire gang that is here.

If you do not mind, I am not going to converse with you anymore about this topic. And I think you should not converse with me about it. I think that you are misunderstanding me at the least. I have read some of your other threads and I believe you love the Lord very much and enjoy good fellowship with the saints that are here. We do not want to besmirch one another. I do not wish to argue with you or interfere with the peace that you have from the Lord. Let's live in peace. Ok?

You love the Lord and I love the Lord but on this topic we are having a difficult time with each other, aren't we? You won't hurt my feelings if you don't answer my posts. If you do answer them, I hope I don't hurt your feelings if I don't answer yours. Can we agree on that? Maybe we both just need to chill. There is only one Jesus, and we are just fallible creatures, aren't we? Maybe we can fellowship again on another thread. I hope so.

God bless you, Pilgrim

Ginny,
i second and amen everything Pilgrim said, and will head into my study to chill.

God bless you all, neil

EDIT:
It seems I was writing while more posts went up. Still I will leave this as it is.[end]

To those discussing legal protests to formal government,

It seems to be true everywhere, that where a crowd gathers, there are always others not directly connected to the protest, who bring violence to it for their own ends.

No-one can be sure govenments themselves don't have something to do with this phenomenon.

I was thinking about unity in the last two days, because of various threads here, and was reminded that Paul exhorts us to 'Endeavour to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace', (Eph 4), and declares 'For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. (1 Cor 12:13)

23 And being let go, they went to their own company, and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said unto them. 24 And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou [art] God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is: 25 Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things? 26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. 27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, 28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done. 29 And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word, 30 By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus. 31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness. 32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: (Acts 4)

Charles Wesley, living at a time when atheism was getting its first philosophical airing in England by David Hume (formerly a church-goer), was very keen on the 'escape' described by Peter at the start of his second epistle. He puts it this way,

Brethren in Christ, and well-beloved,
To Jesus and his servants dear,
Enter and show yourselves approved;
Enter, and find that God is here.

Welcome from earth: lo, the right hand
Of fellowship to you we give!
With open hearts and hands we stand,
And you in Jesu's name receive.

Say, are your hearts resolved as ours?
Then let them burn with sacred love;
Then let them taste the heavenly powers,
Partakers of the joys above.

Jesu, attend thyself reveal!
Are we not met in thy great name?
Thee in the midst we wait to feel,
We wait to catch the spreading flame.

Thou God that answerest by fire,
The Spirit of burning now impart;
And let the flames of pure desire
Rise from the altar of our heart.

Truly our fellowship below
With thee and with the Father is;
In thee eternal life we know,
And heaven's unutterable bliss.

In part we only know thee here,
But wait thy coming from above;
And we shall then behold thee near,
And we shall all be lost in love.

and surely, we should be able to say a hearty AMEN!

A Hearty Amen to that, laddie. :-)

I'm off for now. I think sonofthunder who started this thread has plenty to chew on for awhile.

I am off to search the scriptures for God's ways and help my boys paint their bedroom.

Have a wonderful Sunday. I cannot wait to gather with the saints around the Lord tomorrow. Last weeks meeting was pretty cool. The theme that the Holy Spirit knitted together through everyone was a message based on water. Divine water, the Water of Life. There were spontaneous songs about the water of life, as the hart panteth after the water was one of them and there were scriptures based on water, Ho everyone that thirsteth, he that drinks of me, when thou passeth through the waters I will be with thee, etc, etc. We have several people in our group passing through some tough waters.

It is really a blessing to see everyone participate and share something. It really knits us together, especially when someone is sharing something out of their life. God's dealings with them and how they learned through God's dealings to finally yield to Him. It's the story of us all. Some have shared that the Lord allowed sickness and disease in their life because He was trying to turn them from a hard heart. And we all can amen that. I know about that myself.

But most of all it is really other worldly when we come with nothing but our hearts and what God has done and is doing in our lives, and we come as it were "unprepared", yet God has indeed prepared us (in life, by His daily dealings). Yes, the Holy Spirit begins to move through simple things, a song, a psalm, an exhortation and then what He wants to talk to us about begins to slowly but surely materialize. And what we need most of all, we receive. His gentle, sweet presence with us demonstrated in each of His children and a message from His heart coming out of the deposit of Christ in each member of the Body.

Only the Holy Spirit can personalize a meeting that touches everyone and it's not by a sermon although God's Word is usually a big part of it. But you know what I mean.

I love it! God is so cool. Walking with Him is awesome, but only on His terms and there is no wiggle room, saints. None at all. His ways and His methods, and that's the way it will always be.

Thanks Bob. I spent a few minutes on Steve's site and then bookmarked it for later. Looks interesting.

Original Question: When Has Authority Gone Too Far?

Answer: When you try to dethrone Him. You take God's place in someone's life and be their great shepherd. You can't be the Most High, but a lot of men try to "be like Him". Lucifer tried and is still trying, through men.

Isaiah 14:13-14
For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will BE LIKE the most High.

Now do you see how serious it is and why Samuel was so grieved that the people wanted a king?

Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. Isa 14:15

What shall one then answer the messengers of the nation? That the LORD hath founded Zion, and the poor of his people shall trust in it. Isa 14:32

No condemnation now I dread;
Jesus, and all in Him, is mine;
Alive in Him, my living Head,

From "And Can It Be, That I Should Gain".
http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/a/c/acanitbe.htm

sonofthunder, you still around? Do you have any comments or any more questions? Your little question (spark) started a huge discussion (fire). I appreciated the opportunity to share my heart and I am sure others did too, and I'm sure we would all be interested in what you think about all the feedback.

Who is your authority? Put another way, what name have you taken for yourself? It carries more weight and has more influence over you then you are aware of, or would be willing to confess.

His name is Jesus!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWQN3wsFAVM

You would notice in this thread that we actually had a good discussion on Godly authority and our thrust was not structure until someone else introduced it. That is the nature of these types of threads. Someone can easily pull it way off topic. Many of us were engaged in an edifying way. You missed the whole point of the thread if you think we focused on "forms". We focused on giving Jesus His rightful place in our hearts and lives. The tremendous liberty you speak about, does not give us liberty to have two or more "Heads" (idols) which usurps the Headship of Jesus Christ. You cannot serve two masters, either you will love the one and hate the other or hate the other and love the one. No, we were definitely not talking about "forms".

I am glad you brought up "Mother" Teresa, because it goes with this thread very well. She is just another one that the RCC has or will canonize to become a "Saint" that people idolize and will pray to. And once again, Jesus Christ is usurped and does not have His rightful place in people's hearts.

It always grieves me how people use the Catholic church Teresa to shame others as you are doing. And the RCC (Roman Catholic Church)exploited her and still does and they over publicized her for their ecumenical ends. "The end justify the means", has always been their mantra.

Teresa of the RCC, is trumpeted as the ultimate saint when it comes to good works and serving the poor. Yet we know that we are not justified by our works, no matter how "great" we were. Even if we give all we have to the poor and surrender our body to be burned. 1 Cor 13.

Giving the Lord His rightful place in our lives is more important than anything else, even the kind of works that she did.

Perhaps we should stop seeking to make differences and just follow Christ as she did.

I don't think I want to follow Christ as she did.

Teresa was highly exploited and publicized by the Catholic church in their quest for ecumenicalism (to bring many into their organization. But do we know her life with Jesus? We have her words and good works that we can go on. Most people go by her works because many of her words are very troubling (they support Catholic doctrine which is anti-gospel). What are some of these words?

"Mother" Teresa was born Agnes Gonxha Bojaxhiu of Albanian parents in what is now Yugoslavia/Bosnia on 8/27/10. The diminutive nun arrived 1/6/29 in India, where she started assisting the needy and eventually established the now-global "Missionaries of Charity" organization. "Mother" Teresa, and those who work with her, never try to convert to Christ the dying people for whom they care.

Instead, "Mother" Teresa declares: "If in coming face to face with God we accept Him in our lives, then we are converting. We become a better Hindu, a better Muslim, a better Catholic, a better whatever we are. ... What God is in your mind you must accept" (from Mother Teresa: Her People and Her Work , by Desmond Doig

Consider some quotes from her speech at the 10/84 Worldwide Retreat for Priests:

(a) "At the word of a priest, that little piece of bread becomes the body of Christ, the Bread of Life."

(b) "Without a priest, without Jesus going with them, our sisters couldn't go anywhere."

(c) "When the priest is there, then can we have our altar and our tabernacle and our Jesus. Only the priest put Jesus there for us. ... Jesus wants to go there, but we cannot bring him unless you first give him to us. This is why I love priests so much. We could never be what we are and do the things we do without you priests who first bring Jesus to us."

(d) "Mary ... is our patroness and our Mother, and she is always leading us to Jesus."

The following is from an interview with a Catholic nun, "Sister" Ann, who worked in Kathmandu, Nepal, with "Mother" Teresa's organization Missionaries of Charity. The interview was conducted 11/23/84 at the Pashupati Temple.

Q: Do you believe if they die believing in Shiva or in Ram [Hindu gods] they will go to heaven? A: Yes, that is their faith. My own faith will lead me to God, ... So if they have believed in their god very strongly, if they have faith, surely they will be saved. Q: Today it does not seem that the Catholic Church is trying to convert anymore. I know that John Paul II is saying now that those of other religions are saved. You do not believe they are lost anyway, right? A: No, they are not lost. They are saved according to their faith, you know. If they believe whatever they believe, that is their salvation.

"Mother" Teresa is also involved in various projects with New Agers and "one-worlders." In 1985, "Mother" Teresa attended a conference sponsored by the United Nations University of Peace whose featured agenda was a call to bring about the New World Order. Others participating in the "Spirit of Peace" conference included Marilyn Ferguson, leading proponent of the New Age movement; Prince Bernhardt of the Netherlands, commonly known as a leader of the one-world secret elitist society, the Bilderbergers; "His Holiness" Tenzin Gyatso, the XIV Dalai Lama of Tibet; Helen Caldicott, president of "Physicians for Social Responsibility," an organization favoring U.S. unilateral disarmament; Bishop Desmond Tutu, proponent of leftist revolution in South Africa; and New Ager Robert Muller, Ass't. Secretary General of the U.N., in charge of co-ordinating the work of 32 specialized agencies and world programs. [Reported in "Ecumenism, 'Global Spirituality' and Mother Teresa," Christian Inquirer (April 1985), p. 26; and The Prophecy Newsletter (Vol. 1, No. 5, p. 6.)]

"Mother" Teresa also participated in the "Summit for Peace" in Assisi, Italy, in November 1986. This blasphemous prayer meeting was arranged by the Pope and was attended by leaders of many different religions, including Hindu, Buddhist, Islamic, Shinto, Sikh, and North American Indian--all of whom united in prayers for world peace (11/10/86 Time , pp. 78-79). Biblical Discernment Ministries - Revised 3/96

No one will ever deny she did true humanitarian work but she came in the name of a false gospel, she preached a false gospel, and she may have died in that false gospel. The way of salvation is through Christ and Christ alone. No one can work their way to Heaven, for if we could, then Christ died in vain because salvation would have been available by human effort. Self-works are an affront to the Cross of Christ. Mother Teresa is another casualty of the false church of Rome. If you are reading this and want to follow in her footsteps, you have become seduced by a false system and in need of salvation. - Dr. Ken Matto

The quotes in this post were taken from the link below and I appreciate the references that were given.
http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/mothther.htm

Does God overlook these heart beliefs just because as you and KP say, "she was sincere". Sincerity of heart is exactly how the RCC deceives people. I know very well, I come from a Jesuit family.

To me a true saint is one that honors the Lord Jesus Christ and keeps His Word and has no other gods/idols before Him, regardless of what anyone says. When you stand for Jesus Christ and His Word and do not compromise, that is the kind of love that God is looking for. Love for Him and His Son first and foremost. Not love for Mary, Priests, Saints or the Pope.

I wish "Mother" Teresa, in her life would have repudiated the worship of Mary, the Pope and all RCC Saints but instead she embraced it. That would have matched her great personal sacrifice if she would have honored the Word of Life and His Word. To me she loved the Jesus that cares for the poor but not the Jesus that loved His Father above all else and all others and kept His Father's Word. She loved a Jesus that listened to His Mother and allowed the Pope to be His presence and voice on the earth. If she truly loved God and Jesus Christ, she would have honored them and repudiated everyone else that took glory from His Son. If she truly loved the Lord like the RCC is always proud to say, she would have been excommunicated by the RCC for telling them how they are usurping the Authority of Jesus Christ on earth and in His Body.

Actually, I feel very sorry for her. I do not look up to her as someone I should emulate. She was very self-sacrificing but the scriptures tell us that works like that alone will not justify us. God is not obligated to us and never in debt to us.

While we seem to be focused on forms, God seems to be focused on sincerity of heart and truth in the inward parts. In another message given at the Dallas conference, KP Yohannan spoke of Mother Teresa, who held to questionable forms and doctrine, yet had a sincere heart for Christ and demonstrated it in a way that the whole nation of India had to sit up and take notice.

It is not a Biblically correct statement that you and KP make that God is focused on sincerity of heart. KP is right that she held to questionable forms and doctrine, but gives her a bye, all because she was sincere. I don't know KP and have never heard of him until recently. Neither have I heard or read anything by him, so I am going only by your quote of him. The person that started this thread quoted someone and you say don't go by it because you don't know the context. Why do you quote people then? Do you also expect us to not address your quote? Please give us the freedom to address quotes that people make.

This is how deceptive the days are in which we live. Sincerity of heart has replaced walking in truth and many are being swept into false religions and following idols because of the trumpeting of sincerity.

Based on Teresa's word, the truth was not in her. KP is right about her sincerity, but goes too far when he says she had truth in her inward parts.

John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

Where is righteous judgment today? We only judge after outward appearance and we call it righteous judgment.

Are our words (which reflect our heart) important to God. Jesus said, by our own words will we be justifed or condemned.

Matt 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

From Genesis to Revelation, this is the man that God is looking for.

1 John 2:3-6
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

It seems to me that in this thread we are making - as Alan Martin said in his recent Revival Conference sermon - a difference where God has made no difference.

I'm sorry brother, but God has made a difference (differentiation) and we need to pay attention to it.

I will probably receive flack for speaking about M. Teresa this way, but like I said, you bringing her up is actually very in line with this thread. She is already an idol to many people and when you try to tear down an idol, people will gnash their teeth against you and want to "push you off a cliff". I don't care if I am derided because I would rather have the honor that comes from God than the honor that comes from man.

And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him. And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. Luke 16:14-15

That which is HIGHLY ESTEEMED among men is an ABOMINATION in the sight of God.

What will we do with Jesus' words?

We are being strongly tested in this day whether we will honor the Lord and only Him or not. He is revealing many idols in our hearts because He is a jealous God and He wants them torn down from the high places in our hearts so He can have His rightful place in us and what are we going to do about it?

Pilgrim

Come to Jesus Christ with your whole heart and do not be joined to anything in your heart but Him.

Pilgrim, thank you for the testimony in your last post, and your insistence on Christocentricity. The speed with which you got onto idols, now makes more sense.

when you try to tear down an idol, people will gnash their teeth against you and want to "push you off a cliff"

that was a good Word, a nice bit of balm:

"Couldn't all pastors be like the apostle Paul, think hard again if that will be possible in all cases.

Remember those small churches, remember their pastors, remember their families. In the simplicity of their faith, in the bareness of their living condition there they spend their lives, their they get old, there they die."

amen.

this also sung to my spirit:

"However, I think I will pause for a while and just be a friend, a supporter, or a fellow pilgrim in Christ and just pray for the man, unless the abuse of authority is apparent.

Perhaps in one of his solitude, he will come to the realization of this error".

i like that word, "solitude"...it reminds me of "wilderness", or in the Hebrew "B'midbar".

its my conviction, as the Lord leads, sometimes, we just have to slow down, get in the wilderness alone, find a cave, or brook, like the Kerith, and get alone with God, contend with Him, listen to Him, talk to Him.

i fully realize many dear saints cant afford this Divine Luxury, in the hurly burly rush of life, job, children, but if one can, venture into the wilderness..."solitude"...oh, its a Good Place to be, because when you draw near to Him.........(i dont even have to write the rest)

neil

Man gathers around a truth (the just shall live by faith) and builds a structure to it (Lutheranism) and calls it, IT.

But if Luther were around today, he would probably be seeking the Lord for more truth.

This happens time and time again throughout history and our modern day is replete with examples of men gathering around men or truths and then building a tower to heaven based on them or that truth and calling it, IT.

The Lord moved mightily during the Reformation and He used Luther and many others, but as soon as man takes over and say, "Ok Lord, we see how its done, we'll take it from here", the Holy Spirit moves on and leaves man to the monument of his hands which becomes a carcass.

We see the carcasses of Lutheranism, Methodism, and other of man's works today and the Holy Spirit has moved on. When we move in, He moves out. And we never, never learn the lesson that God is trying to teach us.

Do you want the Holy Spirit to move on from your life or do you want Him to stay? Then let the Lord be the Head and don't tell Him how it's done and He will continue to give you revelation, light and life. Otherwise, when He does not have the proper place in your heart (Headship) then a veil comes over your spiritual eyes and your ears close to Him.

Read Jeremiah 9 very, very slowly. It starts off like this.

Oh that my head were waters, and mine eyes a fountain of tears, that I might weep day and night for the slain of the daughter of my people!

Oh that I had in the wilderness a lodging place of wayfaring men; that I might leave my people, and go from them! for they be all adulterers, an assembly of treacherous men.

And they bend their tongues like their bow for lies: but they are not valiant for the truth upon the earth; for they proceed from evil to evil, and they know not me, saith the LORD.

Take ye heed every one of his neighbour, and trust ye not in any brother: for every brother will utterly supplant, and every neighbour will walk with slanders.

And they will deceive every one his neighbour, and will not speak the truth: they have taught their tongue to speak lies, and weary themselves to commit iniquity.

Thine habitation is in the midst of deceit; through deceit they refuse to know me, saith the LORD.

The Lord is so jealous for our heart and for us to KNOW HIM. This is the real problem today and in every generation. He does not have our heart and we really do not want to know Him.

Come to the Lord with ALL your heart and do not be joined to anything in your heart BUT HIM.

Pilgrim

"Read Jeremiah 9 very, very slowly."

indeed i will...tommorow, in the morning watch, before the sun rises.

May God bless your day, and all who read this, amen.

slowly, neil

Good to start with Jeremiah 18:18-22

When I would comfort myself against sorrow, my heart is faint in me.

Behold the voice of the cry of the daughter of my people because of them that dwell in a far country: Is not the LORD in Zion? is not her king in her? Why have they provoked me to anger with their graven images, and with strange vanities?

The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.

For the hurt of the daughter of my people am I hurt; I am black; astonishment hath taken hold on me.

Is there no balm in Gilead; is there no physician there? why then is not the health of the daughter of my people recovered?

May the Lord help us. Pilgrim

Hi Oracio,

Maybe I will just blog it. I really have not thought about it. Blogging seems like an easy way to jot down thoughts.

Thanks for reminding me. Look at the symbology in Jer 8-9.

How does it apply today. This is not something that you find in a Theology book. It has to be Spirit inspired. at least I have not read anything.

How does this apply today?
Jer 8:9 The wise men are ashamed, they are dismayed and taken: lo, they have rejected the word of the LORD; and what wisdom is in them?

Who are these wise men? They are everyone that trusteth in themselves (their wisdom, their ways, their good ideas) and their "spirituality". They would rather trust in the traditions of man than God's Word. They have constantly rejected His Word and the Holy Spirit's voice. Not a very wise thing to do.

Jer 8:10 Therefore will I give their wives unto others, and their fields to them that shall inherit them: for every one from the least even unto the greatest is given to covetousness, from the prophet even unto the priest every one dealeth falsely.

What is happening to marriages and families today? From the church "leaders" to the "lowly" sheep sitting in the congregation taking in the bitter waters (false word) that is being preached to him, divorces and rebellious children are rampant.

Jer 8:11 For they have healed the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace.

We are being promised false peace by all the preachers today who are not preaching the whole counsel of God to the people. A covetous, greedy preacher will make a covetous congregation. A prideful preacher will have prideful children (spiritual followers).

Jer 8:12 Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush: therefore shall they fall among them that fall: in the time of their visitation they shall be cast down, saith the LORD.

There is no sensitivity to sin today and no fear of the Lord.

Jer 8:13 I will surely consume them, saith the LORD: there shall be no grapes on the vine, nor figs on the fig tree, and the leaf shall fade; and the things that I have given them shall pass away from them.

This means all kind of trouble. Health, finances, friendships. All good things in one's life will fade and pass away as we continue to harden our hearts to the Lord.

Jer 8:14 Why do we sit still? assemble yourselves, and let us enter into the defenced cities, and let us be silent there: for the LORD our God hath put us to silence, and given us water of gall to drink, because we have sinned against the LORD.

They thought they would be safe from their enemies in their "defenced cities" (trusting in their spiritual structures, man-made doctrines and traditions of man).
Gall is bitter, and trials that we bring on ourselves are bitter because we realize that if we only hearkened to the voice of the Lord when we remembering Him warning us way back when, that this would not have happened. And because God loves us and is jealous for our hearts, He will hurt us. It is a bitter thing to be shattered by the Rock all because we would not humble ourselves and fall on the ROCK and be broken (brokeness).

Jer 8:15 We looked for peace, but no good came; and for a time of health, and behold trouble!

We trusted in our outward prosperity and our spirituality and all the spiritual formulas that the false prophets gave us that were supposed to bring us wealth and happiness.

Jer 8:16 The snorting of his horses was heard from Dan: the whole land trembled at the sound of the neighing of his strong ones; for they are come, and have devoured the land, and all that is in it; the city, and those that dwell therein.

The powers of darkness (strong ones) are coming. The jig is up and judgment is here. God uses the powers of darkness to judge a disobedient people.

Jer 8:17 For, behold, I will send serpents, cockatrices, among you, which will not be charmed, and they shall bite you, saith the LORD.

Powers of darkness in detail, sting and bite. Those of you that have been severely chastened by the Lord knows what this means. God's judgment cannot be stopped. You cannot charm them with feigned repentance (human sorrow) and true repentance (godly sorrow)is far from you at this point.

Jer 8:18 When I would comfort myself against sorrow, my heart is faint in me.

Is this not what people (intercessors) feel today who see the condition of the church (professing christians) and know the ways of the Lord and what He does to soften hardened hearts. It is not a very pretty picture, but if we respond to His chastening it will yield the peaceable fruit of righteousness.

Jer 8:19 Behold the voice of the cry of the daughter of my people because of them that dwell in a far country: Is not the LORD in Zion? is not her king in her? Why have they provoked me to anger with their graven images, and with strange vanities?

Far country - powers of darkness, trials, tribulation. They are coming to ravage their "land". Land today is US, our heart, not some country.

Yes, is not the Lord in Zion, in the midst of His people? Why do we ignore Him and turn to everyone and everything else? We give Him lip service but our hearts are far from Him.

Isa 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

Jer 8:20 The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.

It is very sobering when you come to the place where you have been "found out" by God and you know judgment is coming, and everything, all the works of your hands in life are crumbling. Your job, marriage, friendships, finances, health, etc., and you realize that you cannot save any of it and you also realize that you have been playing games (church) with the Lord God Almighty. It comes on your swift, and there is no time to prepare (repent), because it comes when you are not expecting it (enjoying your sin).

Jer 8:22 Is there no balm in Gilead; is there no physician there? why then is not the health of the daughter of my people recovered?

There is a Balm, but proud folks will not use it. Will not humble themselves to use it. They that are not sick, don't need a Physician, only they that are sick. The deception that pride brings, is that folks don't think they are sick when in fact they are, we all are. They think that "going to church", paying their tithe and volunteering their time, for some church activities puts you in good standing with God. They have sought the honor of man and built themselve a reputation and they certainly cannot tell everyone who thinks they are so spiritual that they need help desperately.

We cannot fool God.

Read Isaiah 5 and get ready to be floored by the Spirit of God. Ask the Holy Spirit how it relates to today. He will show you.

We need to weep for ourselves and the condition of the Church.

Brother, I can only tell you what these things mean to me. I don't have any system of hermeneutics and I am not looking for one. I can only share what I think the Spirit of God is saying to me. You don't need anyone to interpret for you if you have the Holy Spirit. But, I am always happy to share what I think some passage is saying. The good thing is that the Lord can show you much more.

Isa 29:10 For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.
Isa 29:11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:
Isa 29:12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
Isa 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

When we do not come to the Lord with our whole heart and instead trust in the doctrines and traditions of men and our own capabilities and we fall asleep, meaning God's Word no longer has any meaning to us. This is what a sleeping virgin is. They don't know Him, they don't hear Him and they don't see Him. That's why in Mt 25, when they knock for the Lord to open up, He says, "I do not know you".

A spirit of slumber falls over us as we give our hearts to man's books, traditions, doctrines.

God's Word no longer means anything to us and we no longer hear the Holy Spirit. Yet all the while, we think we are dwelling in peace and safety. We justify ourselves in our hearts because of the elaborate spiritual structure we have built for ourselves in life.

Chris, thank you for sharing that.

Fear drives a lot of man's ways and decisions. Fear of loss of control, fear of lack of security, fear of chaos, fear of many things, you can fill in the blanks.

What you talk about is all about "controlling things" and keeping everyone in lock-step.

No way to run a family. Not the Lord's way.

Thanks again.

I now have a pinpoint example of "authority" going too far, When the pastor tells you he can sit down with you and look at your finiances to find out where your next tithe is coming from. Perhaps this is too far?

Of course, one could always suggest doing it the other way round... that would be, you sit down with your pastor to look at HIS finances, to see how HE could help you out ...

Of course, I jest, but only to make the point that in the early church there was great openness and reciprocity about many things between the saints. Ananias and Sapphira died for lying and hypocrisy, rather than for how they actually planned to manage their money. (Acts 5)