How Is This Explained?

I was reading the thread on knowing the will of God and something came to mind. To be honest with you, it comes to mind regularly for me. It is often said that the way we know God's will is to compare what we think we are hearing God say with the Word. We hear it said that God never contradicts his Word. How do we explain God telling Abraham to take Isaac up on a mountaintop and kill him? If a Christian started up some mountain with their kid today with stuff to build a fire to tie him to, the church would have a fit! How do we explain Moses mother putting him into a basket in a river? If a mother did that today, she would be arrested. How do we explain God telling Moses to go to Egypt to do what he had told him to do and then he meets him on the road to kill him? How do we explain Mary letting Martha do all the work? In churches today, that would be considered selfish. I have settled the answers to these things in my own heart, but I think many people do not understand what is meant by people saying God never contradicts his word. His word is full of dichotomy that reveals his Divine Nature. It reveals how God is concerned about the secrets of our heart. It's the heart God is after.This is probably going to blow some folks minds, but yesterday morning, I realized I hadn't even asked God who he wanted me to vote for. I realized that I was planning to go down to the polls and vote based on my own assumption of what Jesus would do. When I stopped to actually pray, God arrested me. Now, did God have me vote for John Kerry because he wants John Kerry to win, or did God want me to vote for John Kerry because he was testing my obedience? I stood in that little tent and cried as I pushed the button. I released what little control I thought I had concerning the election into the hands of God. You know we feel so powerful in there pushing that little button. We think we are affecting the outcome of something in the direction we want it to go. God's ways are not our ways. We cannot afford to be fleshly in our interpretation of God's commands. We must ascend beyond our own understanding. I came home later, after I had voted and confessed to my family what I had done. I thought my husband was going to divorce me! They were appalled that I would do such a thing. To be honest, I was appalled that God had issued that challenge to me. But, I do believe it was God. In fact, I couldn't have done anything else. I tried to just not vote. I told God, "well, how about I just don't vote?" No! It isn't about being inactive, it's about obedience. We cannot figure God out. We just must trust in his character. He knows so much more than we do about what his is doing in the hearts of people. Maybe my voting for Kerry was nothing more than God testing my heart. I pray I never think I have God all figured out. I pray he can tell me to do anything, and even though I don't understand it, I will obey.

it's about obedience. We cannot figure God out. We just must trust in his character. He knows so much more than we do about what his is doing in the hearts of people. Maybe my voting for Kerry was nothing more than God testing my heart. I pray I never think I have God all figured out. I pray he can tell me to do anything, and even though I don't understand it, I will obey.Ah, Praise God!This is THE issue. Thank you sister. If anything the Lord has been impressing on me is that it is in the seemingly 'small' things or at least that's the way my (our?) mind tends to process things. And I think you hit it square on the head, "Whatever HE tells you to do, do it." Mary said. That's been stuck in my head now for the last couple of weeks.Ah it's hard to share these things sometimes, thinking that you will give off the wrong impression but...Yesterday went to fetch some materials at the Home Depot. Came out and a guy about my age carrying a plastic anti-freeze bottle or maybe it was orange juice? approached me and asked if I had any change to spare. Being under the weather lately and a bit miserable I said "sorry brother, your timings bad". He put his head down and went on to another person in the lot. The guy didn't seem to be on drugs or any other thing, just hurting like so many of us.I got in my truck and said out loud, "You stinking liar!" God forgive me!" Started reaching for some change as I watched him approach someone else who handed him a dollar it looked like...Started doing the stupid rationalization thing, "Oh well somebody took care of him, besides I need to get back to work and besides he is already across the lot, blah, blah, blah"I drove on away from him back towards work, asking God for forgiveness and repenting of my dis-obedience."If any asks of you....do not turn away""Yes Lord" "I know, I'm sorry""It's not to late, you could turn left here and...""But I should get back to work""Do you love ME Michael?""Gulp..."I go a couple more streets, thinking about it, almost back to the house I am working on. Still dwelling on my stupidity in why I lied in the first place."Lord, I know I can't earn anything, You know my heart, I love to give...I'm sick Lord...(more ways than than one)...""Small things, the 'little' things...""It's too late now, I would never find him...""It's never too late Michael"I took a left turn back toward's what would be the far side of Home Depot a couple of streets over, with the intention of stopping at the gas station to get some water and break the ten bucks I had and then go search for the man. I pulled into the gas station and...There he was! Praise God, got some water, came out and he was heading up the street out by the traffic light, pulled up, rolled down my window and handed it all to him. He laughed, and smiled and was so appreciative. "Thank you brother, God bless you!" I said "No, God bless YOU brother", thinking if he only knew!Drove on, thanking the Lord that He gave me another chance to right my wrong, to undo my dis-obedience..."..unto the least of these...you have done unto Me.."And I just cried. "It's all unto You Jesus"

I can honestly say, that for the last few months, the one thing that God keeps impressing upon me is: Obedience.Jesus even said, "not my will, but thine"

Mike,I am so 'humble' of you :-) (my daughter and I say humble instead of proud :-P ) I love to hear this!!! It gives me encouragement to see God stretching someone and them allowing and going with it. May the Lord bless you in an awsome way!Obedience. To obey is better than sacrifice."The secret to true obedience is having access to His abiding fellowship. It is God's holy presence, consciously abiding with us, that keeps us from disobeying Him." A. Murray (Cool thought!)Obedience: learning to TRUST His time, His place, His will :-) Blessings everyone!!!In His love, Chanin1 Sam 15:22 "What is more pleasing to the LORD: your burnt offerings and sacrifices or your obedience to his voice? Obedience is far better than sacrifice. Listening to him is much better than offering the fat of rams.

Mark, (sorry didn't see your reply at first)the Lord has also been speakng to me about obedience too. I actually dreamed about a magazine that had a big 'O' on it and it stood for Obedience. I am really seeing that He is speaking to me about obedience in my family life- this is the hardest for me. To give up my own dreams, wants, rights, control, etc.. in this area- down to the last detail. :-o I can't tell you how many times I have caught myself (the one who always shouts 'surrender') with this thought running through my mind "but that's not fair, how come "I" have to be the one..." (me:"surrender that thought, surrender that thought")I see I am still a beginner. "We do not want to be beginners. But let us be convinced of the fact that we wil never be anything else but beginners, all our life." T. MertonIn Him, Chanin

Yes, obedience is the best for, "Rebellion is as bad as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as bad as worshiping idols." (NLT - 1 Samuel 15:23)Concerning the will of God... on Monday I started reading through Genesis and "in the beginning" it was made very clear to me what the will of God was and is; "Then God said, 'Let us make people in our image, to be like ourselves... So God created people in His own image; God patterned them after Himself; male and female He created them... Then God looked over all He had made, and He saw that it was excellent in every way." (NLT - Genesis 1:26a, 27, 31a) This was the whole reason people were created, to reflect God's image and like Noah, "... consistently followed God's will and enjoyed a close relationship with Him." (NLT - Genesis 6:9b) That's it! And it's that simple!So... maybe that will relieve the stress off those of you who may be desperately trying to figure out what the will of God is for your life. Reflect His image through consistently following God's will and enjoying a close relationship with Him. "But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you." (NKJV - Matthew 6:33)

I see I am still a beginner. "We do not want to be beginners. But let us be convinced of the fact that we wil never be anything else but beginners, all our life." T. MertonOh Chanin, this is good! I always used to be using my so called Christianity trying to attain some measure of recognition in life. I've had to give that up, as well. I'm beginning to be more content to be a nobody among nobodies. I love walking with you grasshoppa! Dian.

Not too long ago...I went to my car, that was parked in a public parking lot.As I opened the door to get in, a crumpled coke can fell to the ground. (No, my floor board is not trashed ;-) )At any rate, my first thought was to leave it on the ground and drive off. However, as clear as a bell, I felt strongly impressed to pick the can up. I had already begun to drive away, but went back and picked it up. Upon doing so, I felt a strong peace come upon me, and I almost began to cry! This really wasn't about littering...and this may sound silly. But I knew at that instant, and know now...that God was simply asking me to be obedient. Even with "little things".I'm learning to be more sensitive to the Holy Spirit.I almost didn't write this, because it might sound silly, but I knew at that moment it was God.And it really wasn't about littering, or allowing a can to drop to the ground un-noticed, but about my obedience to Him....to His voice.His still small voice.

I too find myself being impressed, it is about the small things. He wants us to have integrity even down to a penny's worth. But you add the penny's up and what happens? You have a dollar and so on. We are to press on toward the high calling He has given us. God wants our faithfulness in all we are and all we do. If HE can trust us with the smaller things of life then He will entrust us with the eternal things of life.Keep on being obedient. We must endure to the end to be saved.Blessings to you,Am_Lovin_HIM

hello fellow grasshoppas :-) ,Dian, I know what you mean. Luckily the Lord is good at reminding me that, though I am fearfully and wonderfully made, I am also just a speck in His big universe. Whenever I think I have "arrived", He shows me that I have not arrived anywhere except on my face :-o I can truly say I am grateful for this. I want so much to be humble for Him. I don't want to disgrace His name.Mark,I know exactly what you mean as well. I have times like that too. This verse always comes to mind when I am tempted to not follow through with full obedience "...in whatever you do, do all to the glory of God."So you glorified God in picking up that can. halleluiah! :-) It is indeed that little things that He tests us with.In Him, Chanin

Mark, I am reminded of something as I read your post about picking up trash in the parking lot. Joyce Meyers always says she learned to obey God at the grocery store. He made her put her buggies in the proper place and so forth. I don't know if you all read the thread I started on Something Strange Is Happening, but I was telling my son, Ben, who is 24 and in full-time ministry, how I am feeling. He said, "Mom, it isn't what we do, anyway, it's how we glorify God when we do it." You know, whether you eat or drink or whatsoever you do, do all to the glory of God. God is making all of us good citizens, as well as obedient children. I haven't even begun to confess the silly things God has made me do. I can remember when Ben first went away to college and he was really struggling to establish his own faith in God. He called me one night very distressed. Finally I just said, "Ben, you need to go someplace where you can get alone with God and just have you a good talk." A couple of hours later, he called me all out of breath. He was very excited. He said, "Mom, I went down to the lake here on campus and I was just pouring my heart out to God. I said, 'God, I'll do anything, just tell me what you want me to do. I'll jump in this lake if you want me to. And then, I realized, Mom, that God said, 'Then, jump!' So I jumped in that lake. I backed up about 30 feet and took a flying leap in that lake." I said, "Ben, it's January!" He said, "I don't care if it is, I bout froze my tail off getting back to the dorm, but I feel better now that God and I have settled some things." Isn't that crazy?! God is so awesome! He doesn't need us to be able to do lots of things, he just needs us to be willing. It makes me wanna jump.... throw my hands up...and shout... stomp my feet... and shout...

This is a great thread!All the replies. Loved that about your son Dian!Brought to mind this from T. A. Sparks:"Sometimes they will think that the best thing to do is this, but that altogether Other inside will not let them do it. Sometimes they will think that the wise thing is not to do this, and that altogether Other inside keeps saying, in effect, Get on with it! The outer man says, It is madness! I am only courting disaster! The inner Man says, You are to do it! These two cannot be reconciled. He is within and He is altogether other, and our education is to learn to follow Him, to go His way. "If any man will come after me, let him deny himself . . . and follow me."Ravenhill presents SparksWould like to think that it is all encompassing, that there are regular deep seated things that we always do because of who we are now. The things that are just automatic 'obedience's',courtesy's', and so forth.It also brings to mind just how well we are Practicing The Presence of God, listening for His still small voice and communing throughout the day...Praying without ceasing. Hope more will jump in here with their thoughts.

God's voice runs along the principles of his written word.I'll use your election example.His word says not to bid someone God speed who brings a contrary doctrine to you---no don't even let them into your house 3JN 9-11.Both Kerry and Bush made it abundently clear they were both christians.Kerry however was pro abortion and pro gay marriage rights ect... Big question----would God tell you to transgress his word?Answer ----no.You heard from a decieving spirit.The fore mentioned examples you gave all have practicle answers to them,but none of them violate God' character--His word--or His holiness. I believe in our endevor to be spiritual we forget to be human and practicle.A careful read though the book of proverbs will show you the why's in the works of Jesus---why he did this or that---or taught this or that. We need to rember that we all ahve several voices we can listen to---We are after all body soul and spirit.Test ALL things.Think about it.

Recently I was led to study Hebrews. The question of total obedience is heavily raised here.Art Katz' Gleanings form the garden - Part 1 & Part 2, and Be ye perfect, are excellent messages on the subject, also. The key theme being, "Choosing that which is perfect over that which seems good." Personally, I find that it isn't so much the "what" where I tend to fail, but the "when". Timing is key to obedience.

Hi Dohzman. I could be wrong. I thought I was wrong once, but I was wrong. :-D . Seriously, I don't know what else to do except press on. I tried to reason with myself and God. Maybe I'm just a flake. I'm trying not to be. I will meditate on these things today. Thanks. Dian.

There's a puritan saying that goes something like this, "the desire of the heart can be so strong it'll bribe the reason into believing it's the voice of God". I may have been or come off as being to harsh. I'm sorry, but as an evangelist going to the churches across america what I see is sometimes beyond belief.I'll give you an example.I had a christian sister in the Lord ask advice on the area of marrying a unbelieving man.She had all these signs and out ward manifestations that she sited including the peace of God and a personal prophesy.My statement to her was that where the word of God is clear you don't need a Word from God on the matter----you need grace to be obedient from the heart or to conform to his word. She didn't listen and now her life is in total disrepair and grief.God will never violate his clear principles and his word. Just as the man recently in the News who jumped into the zoo s lion cage to show how God would protect him---Noting Daniel in the lions den---The lion attacked him and the zoo officials statement was that had they not just feed the lions he would have been killed.Jesus said thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. There's a real good book out by a Brother Lawerence called " Praticing the Presence of God". Its a practical way to serve the Lord and commune with him daily.If you want to see Jesus--- you need to be Jesus to someone in need.That can come through a smile , helps , kindness , all the simple things in life, do these and you'll see mircles happening all around you band you'll experience the smile of God on your life and never doubt or guess what it is the Lord is telling you.God Bless as you press in to know Him better.Brother Daryl

Big question----would God tell you to transgress his word?This seems logical, but I do question, wasn't murder wrong in the old testament? why did God tell Abraham to kill His son Isaac? Couldn't abraham have said, well it doesn't go along with what you've said is right to do. I am not saying anyone is right or wrong here, just questioning. Once I believed that the Lord was tellng me to go to a particualr church and give them a certain message I had written down. It was about restoration. I didn't want to go, i didn't want to look like a fool- but I went and you know what- It wasn't the right church, it turns out it wasn't even a church 'building' He was talking about. But at that moment, I believed He was telling me to go. Maybe it was to see if I'd obey. Maybe not. But I did and, no, they had no idea what I was talking about. They thought I was a weirdo. They asked who I was "under". I felt so stupid. It didn't hurt anything (except my ego) but I wondered for a long time, if it was God, and if it was, why did He do that.Who knows, maybe I am a flake too, a fool. Well, I guess I'll be a fool for Christ, at least.Just for the record I don't believe that God would ever tell you to do anything contrary to His word, but voting for someone- that's not really mentioned in there, I don't think. :-) We are all in a process of learning to listen to Him. Let us pray for discernment and follow after Him.In Him, Chanin

It's true that we will be judged by the light---or understanding we have in the Lord and by the love we have one toward another.When You approach the OT characters you have to rember that they didn't have the bible or such a rich written history. Abraham had what was culturally accepted in his time as to who God was and what gods there were.The Lord chose to make himself known to Abraham in some very special ways, but we have a more sure word 2PETER 1:19-21 , they ministered with limited knowledge to us who have a fuller knowledge. In order to look at the way Abraham was willing to express his faith in obedience to God (note Heb 11:17-19) you can not---let me state it again---YOU MUST NOT---neglect the personal history Abraham already had with God and all that he'd already seen God do and speak to him under special revelations and manifestations.He had plenty of history already in accurately hearing and following God.I could use the fact that in that time human sacrifice was common---but won't,or that Abraham didn't have the bible -- not even the 10 commandments--- but he did have a law from God written on his heart. We all make mistakes and sometimes there pretty painful -- but the closer we conform to the written word the more we'll accurately hear God speak.Why did John call Jesus the Word of God? I tell you the truth---he saw in Jesus the doing of the written Word of God, the living out of the Word. Asoft answer that turned away wrath ,,,,ect....Being spiritual is simply doing the word of God and when nessary the God of the Word will move you with understanding to do special things as His servant.God Bless---Bro.Daryl

And what about David who went into the temple and ate the shew bread? Did I say that right?Anyway, in meditating on the core issue of this thread, I first had to evaluate what the core issue is. You all help me out here, please. I see the core issue as this: Does God lead us to do things that appear to contradict what would seem to be his way of doing things? If so, why? God's purpose in all our lives is to bring us to the place of absolute dependent faith in Him. Perhaps we can dispense with what God might do with whomever and just ask, Is it possible that God led Dian to vote against her own conscience? If so, why? Or is Dian spiritually confused? If Dian is confused, what is causing her confusion? You know, I don't mind being a guinea pig here for the sake of truth. I've given this much thought over the last 48 hours. I, of course, don't like to think I am deceived. I've studied hard to show myself approved. But, I'm not going to be so prideful to think it isn't possible. You may say, "Why is this such a big deal? Let's just drop it." But, I believe it is a huge deal. We cannot get to the place where we rest in believing that we hear God and he is leading us and caring for us if we don't settle these things. This is how I think. Tell me if you think I'm wrong. I humble myself before God daily. I confess that I am nothing without him. I fully understand that we are all just groping in the dark, and if he doesn't flip on the lights, we are doomed. Now, I wait on God. I never assume that I understand. I am certain that God's ways will not make sense to me. I am certain that I must walk by faith and not by sight. Perfect example: God led the children of Israel in the opposite direction of the Promise Land. It made no sense to human reasoning. The shortest distance between two points is a straight line, right? Sometimes my own children want to do things and they ask my permission. I have a check in my spirit, so I say "no". They want to know why. I say because I am the Mom and I can say no if I want to. That's how I see myself with God. Sometimes he makes me step a way that does not make sense to me just to make sure I'm listening and walking in submission. Perhaps he has had to use this tactic to break my stubborn will. You know, like a daddy whose son wants to smoke so he gives him a cigar to make him sick. Did you ever play Simon Says? It's a game about listening closely. God is teaching all of us to listen closely and to submit to him. I'm sure we never get it perfect, but God knows I want to abandon myself and fully trust him. I guess I'm one of those types who runs wide open. I'm either going to win, or I'm going to bust it big time! That's my personality. God has had to rule me with an iron fist. :-( I'm not proud of that, it's just the fact. Maybe I am a flake. God is still big enough to conquer this old hard head. Love ya'll. Dian.

You know, I don't mind being a guinea pig here for the sake of truth.Welcome to the lab! There's plenty of room in this cage, the foods really good and except for the poking and proding... :-P Love the way these threads can go sideways and backward. I too also pondered on the point raised by Daryl, a good point I thought, maybe a bit to quick out of the cage in my own zeal. Time to nibble on some carrot's and sleep on it for awhile.Not entirely sure if maybe we are confusing something here (well considering the source..)Something that came to mind:Dan 2:21 He changes times and seasons; he removes kings and sets up kings; he gives wisdom to the wise and knowledge to those who have understanding; Dan 2:22 he reveals deep and hidden things; he knows what is in the darkness, and the light dwells with him. Psa 75:6 For not from the east or from the west and not from the wilderness comes lifting up, Psa 75:7 but it is God who executes judgment, putting down one and lifting up another. Rom 13:1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. As self appointed captain of the "Red Flag brigade" (it's a minor rebellion, a faction coming together out of the test lab) Would be first to mandate that being a good Berean is item one.If it is the Lord God who sets up leaders and in our day through the process of his creatures casting ballots primarily, am wondering if in this case the emphasis is straying to far into semantics. Couldn't the same thing be said about GWB in certain peoples minds? That situation over in modern Babylonia for instance. Who have recently seen their 'king' removed, one who slaughtered his own people in huge numbers lest anyone forget and it seems many have.It may not be so clear cut here, we may never resolve this to our own liking and can also see where this could be applied to whole other areas, many which are in various threads around here and if taken to extremes a lot of fallout and even more confusion.I did jump at the obedience factor perhaps a bit to quickly. And when it comes to the things that come to our minds or these checks in the spirit am practically paranoid, don't trust my own thoughts at all not to mention the sweet nothings of the adversary and the noise pollution of the world.So perhaps this was designed not only to test Dian's obedience but to spark this whole conversation. "Send in the guinea pig's please".Maybe it's just bad pizza.

Maybe it's just bad pizza.Michael, if this wasn't a Christian forum I'd call you a name! ;-) No, honestly, thanks for lightening the mood. The thing I'm accused of the most often is being too intense. Hey Ya'll! Please excuse me. I perhaps have been listening to some...sweet nothings of the adversary Oops! Somebody hep me now!...or at least pray for me. I love you all! Dian.

Sis---Ilove ya and please don't take my comments as being a criticizm as much as a voice of experience on days gone past trumpeting the lessons---painful lessons---of many years past. When I see mistakes in others it's usually just a reflection of that which I myself have done and when I see sins in others, It's usually just a faint glimpse of the great stain of darkness in my own soul. In all my years of serving Christ the only thing I know is that it takes mercy and grace and the Word seems to stay central long side of the cross. God bless---my prayers ---Your fellow test lab rat. :-) :-) :-)

Remaining humble and teachable is a rare quality among believers today. Dian, you have been such a sweet example of this. I think you have made Jesus very happy to see your sweet spirit about this. We should all remain so open and teachable (even me!) You have shown many fruits of the spirit and many of the qualities of biblical love. Thank you for doing that! God will honor your willingess to be right/wrong and to hear the truth. Though we may make some mistakes along the way, as long as our hearts are not hard, the Lord can do so much with us.In His love, Chanin

The thing I'm accused of the most often is being too intense.Been by the Andrew Strom post recently? That's right you have, I recall now...The pizza, didn't even think of that, as it applying to you actually, was thinking of myself even though now that I look at again...Care for a slice? :-P A true blessing you are

moreofHim wrote:God will honor your willingess to be right/wrong and to hear the truth. Though we may make some mistakes along the way, as long as our hearts are not hard, the Lord can do so much with us."A saint is one who obeys the Word, and does not require explaination, and will not be tempted away and out from that obedience, by allowing questions to be raised about God's credibility and his motive of that requirement, even when it comes from men." - Art KatzIn Gleanings from the Garden - Part 1 and Part 2, Art Katz hit a nerve in my heart upon mentioning the "prophetic tension" in obedience. This is used to explain that only judgement day will truly reveal whether our actions are obedience or disobedience. There is a tension of sorts that comes when we are are aware of God asking us to do something that has the appearance of "evil" to fulfill his purpose.The most dangerous thing that we can do, is follow the sin of the Parisees, by living out of "external principle", rather than "out of the abundance of the heart". This can seem a highly volatile statement, without comprehending a measure of the manifold wisdow of God.This can have the appearance of "licence" to sin if our "heart" desires it. But what we need to realise is that God is only concerned about the heart condition. Obedience in action is infantile christianity (Hebrews 5:11-14;6:1-2). Maturity involves an understanding that external actions are the direct result of internal condition. We sin because we are selfish. We obey because we feel the heart of God.As human beings, we are incapable of originating thought. All we can do is choose what we align ourselves too (whether consciously, or unconsciously) from that which procedes from above or below. If our heart accepts something outside of God's revealed will, in scripture, that implies that it is out of alignment with God in that area, and therefore cannot be trusted. As our heart changes (repentance), it can be trusted more and more, to make right choices, because our choices will be actually be God's choices. We can never have absolute confidence in our obedience, with the constant posibility that our actions are disobedient, due to our imperfection. This is walking by faith, being obedient to the perceived will of God (in light of our understanding of scripture), being constantly aware of the possible damage that our actions could have, and at times being void of positive results. The harsh reality is that only Judgement Day will reveal the extent of our (dis)obedience, but harsher judgement is reserved for those who won't risk disobedience to step out on the stormy waters of yielding to the heart desire of the Lord, when it appears to resist the principle of doctrine. This is the "prophetic tension". The only reliable principle to apply being "better to err on the side of repentance". For further reading on this topic, check out The Prophetic Call - Elijah: Prophet of Restoration by Art Katz. I mention this article particularly, because for me, this was the crack in the door that allowed the light to seep into my heart. I know I seem to be refering to Katz solely, but studying the works of Watchman Nee, Norman Grubb, Ian Thomas, A.W Tozer and Karl Barth (amongst others) will expose the same truth.Bless ya, and I hope this helped. :-)

To illustrate my last post practically, I'll refer to a conversation I had with a friend (who I'll call Jim) last night, regarding tattoos. Jim has an earnest desire to please God, and see souls saved. He comprehends the concepts of humanism/christianity (ala 10 Shekels & a Shirt), lack of repentance in the "First Church of the Magic Prayer", and is frustrated about his inability to lead someone to repentance. Jim is a humble man, in the sence of not having a pretence of thinking himself great in mans sight. He's never touched a drop of alchohol & drugs, never laid a finger on a woman, and fleeing from imorality. He plays in the church music team, fasts and prays regularly, and shares his faith constantly. Loves the lost, yet refuses to excuse their sin.Jim is a "poster boy" on fire christian. So what do you think, call the Pope, we have a candidate for sainthood? Well before we connonise him, read on. Our discussion was on the issue of "good vs perfection". Struggling through Hebrews, Galations, Ephesians & James, considering the ordering of faith, grace & works, leaving these principles to hit the "meat" of obedience, mentioning that true obedience will emerge from a heart accepting it's own imperfection, and by contrast, God's perfection. We discussed the facts and implications of His Word being higher in validity than ours.After a period of tension, agitation and frustration, we rested and began looking at some "christian" rock band sites, which caused Jim to raise the question, "What do you think of tattoos?" Of course, I mentioned Lev 19:28. He responded by pointing out my gottee beard (Lev 19:29).A critical oberservation can be made here, the initial reaction to a scripture that challenges our opinion is either, "Oh yeah, but what about so-and-so?", "I don't understand it, it must have a 'deeper' meaning that I'm missing.", "That's just legalism. I'm under grace.", or the like. The only correct response for us, when we contend with scripture is, "Okay, you got me. I'm wrong."After discussing the possible implications of the wording of these, and surrounding scriptures, he were getting nowhere, until I implied that the scripture about the "trimming of the beard" has already challenged my intellect, and I have already considered full shaving or growing a full beard (much to my wife's disgust:-)).Being aware that Jim has no tattoos, and that his opinion is more centered on the validity of bands like POD and MXPX being "christian" (which his uncompromising "external obedience" would require him to ditch them if they are questionable, which he does not want to do), I sensed a contention agianst scripture. The question was finally made personal, "Would you get a tattoo?", to which he replied "No". The essential question of obedience isn't so much "What", as "Why". This will always reveal the heart. I ask myself "why" constantly, when I find myself contending with God's revealed will (in scripture).Jim's response to this question was to say he liked the look of some tattoos, but refered to the culture of the people that he is called of God to reach and his mother's opinion of them. Then he said that with all that aside, he would get one, rationalising that God would be okay with it. I asked him to point to one tattooed person who didn't get it out of rebellion. "What, are you saying that everyone with tattoos is rebellious?", was his reply. I simply repeated my challenge, knowing what was at stake, and wanting him to find the problem, if it was there, or be at peace, knowing he was secure.We left the contentious issue with my stating his need to question his right to being exempt to something revealed in scripture (without flipping out "principle" of "not being under the Law"), until he gets his answer. We went from this, to discussing obedience, in general again. We discussed different examples of seemingly good actions that could produce death (say giving money to the homeless which could cause a drug overdose), and seemingly evil acts that produce life (like 9/11 bringing many to repentance). The Lord's Prayer was discussed, and as we discussed "Your kingdom come, Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven." It suddenly hit him, "God didn't origionate tattoos. Therefore, there would be no tattoos in heaven. Therefore it's not God's will." Suddenly another thought hit him, "If it's not God's will, then God doesn't like them. If God doesn't like them, then why do I?"A heart alteration began to take place, where Jim realised that his attraction to tattoos was "humanistic" in nature. Once the "inner condition" is dealt with, obedient actions will become habitual.How do I feel about tattoos? Let's just say I won't get one, but my jury is out as to whether they are permissable, or not. Why did I hit this so hard? Because I perceived God's heart, toward Jim, on the matter (It also helped that a few months ago, the "gotee beard" argument for legalism was used in a debate about homosexuality on a liberal religion website). My intial intention for the conversation, was to share some of the things that the Holy Spirit was dealing with me in. I had no idea where He was taking us in the journey. The reality is, it was none of my business. The whole thing was between Jim and God. My role was simply to be a vessel, "created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God (had) before ordained that (I) should walk in." (Eph 2:10) The reality is, it was inevitable that we would discuss what we did, because He forordained our discussion (as He forordained my earlier homosexual debate, knowing the catalyst it would be). Am I without sin? Of course not. Do I have it all together? Far from it, and it was out of the very brokeness of acknowledging and realising my imperfectness, that He could be shown forth as strong. But don't forget, principle would try to accuse me of "judging" Jim, when I was merely the prosecuting attorney. Chew on that thought for a while. :-)

Chew on that thought for a while. Aaron, I've been chewing on all this for quite some time. I just read the thread about Andrew Strom a few minutes ago and it got me thinking even more. I think it's pride that causes us to resist God himself. We want to hold on to some measure of our own mental ascent and we want God to validate it. We like to think that we are above others in our ascension life. You know, who's the greatest? Something inside me hurts. I'm crying as I write this. Why can't the church get anywhere? When are we going to really love each other? Maybe I'm too sensitive. I don't care to be wrong, I just want to know God. If that means that I have to confess that everything I ever thought I knew is wrong. I don't care. I just want to really know him and be with others who do. I want to see a real church before I die. I want to see the life eminating from it like a mushroom cloud. I don't want to see the strife and death that I've always seen that has made me come so close to giving up. There are so many who have given up. Aaron, please don't take my ramblings here personal. None of this is directed at you. I don't know what's wrong with me today. Something is groaning inside me, and I'm sure I've just totally departed from this thread. Sorry.

Spitfire wrote:Aaron, please don't take my ramblings here personal. None of this is directed at you. I don't know what's wrong with me today. Something is groaning inside me, and I'm sure I've just totally departed from this thread. Sorry.Dian,I take any negative comment as a potential rebuke from the Lord. To be honest, I took no offence from your post:-). One comment that I left out of my discussion with Jim (not his real name btw), was that we also discussed the concept of our being "God in human form" (in my case God in Aaron's form). So our dicussion was effectively God talking to God, or God thinking out loud. I personally have stopped trying to fix the church (myself included), because it's not my job. Having said that, my heart grieves over unrepentance and praylessness (especially when it's my own) and I am frustrated over the apparent apostacy. Your grief is a healthy grief. Absence of grief is an early sign of apostacy (never thought I'd say something like that). I guess one of the most significant disoveries that I have made, in the Word of God, this year (and there have been many) is that I bring nothing to the table for my own (or anyone else's for that matter) salvation. My righteousness is as filthy rags. I simply accept my inperfection, recognising that this is the only means by which God can truely perfect me (1 John 1:9). As a result of this fact, I can't take responsability for the church, or even my own spirituality. Any attempt to is actually pride dressed as humility. Watchman Nee said that even to ask God to help us is a form of pride, because "us" is still in the picture. What we are saying is "I am capable of achieving perfection, but I just need a little assistance from God". Gal 2:20 surrounds the statement that we live, with the fact that we're crucified, and that it's not us living anyway...it's Christ.This is serious mind melting material, but I guess I'm beginning to appreciate the necessity of a liquid mind, founded on a solid Word. The fact that the only thing I bring to the table is my failure, is a humbling thought. Now my only serious (and ever present) enemy is spiritual pride.The questions need to be constantly asked, "Why am I saying this? Is it for desire of recognition, or a pat on the back? Is it to be recognised as someone who's 'made it'?" The reality is, if I answer "Yes." to any of these questions, I'm simply exposing more imperfection, so God is glorified even more.I resign myself in the fact that I hope at least one word can be a key to unlock someones life, or confound them further so they may come to the point that they may be able to receive they key. At the end of the day, it's none of my business. I'm the pot, He's the potter. Yet I find myself intriged my what I write. Does that make me pridefull? More imperfection.The christian walk is certainly one of many paradoxes and frustration. But sometimes I wonder who's more frustated. The pot that desires to know his use, or the enemy who keeps getting his plans for destruction be used to bring life.At the end of the day, for me it goes like this "Be still and know that I AM LORD", and "I dtermine not to know anything among you, save Jesus Christ and him crucified". Everything else is further clarification to those two statements.

The wonder of it all.That we have this gathering of saints here, in this church cleverly disguised as a 'website'.There are some things that are hard, maybe impossible to clearly articulate. Something I picked up in passing over the radio yesterday:"The peace that passes all understanding" was being 'discussed' briefly. The thought being that if you could understand it you could articulate it and being that it is 'beyond' understanding you can't, but if you have it, you most certainly know it and others that have experienced it can only nod in agreement saying amen.That mysterious something 'other' that dwells deep down within us and rises up to take hold of God, that part of us that fumbles and bumbles and staggers around with drunken speech and sloppy journalism and run on sentences (yours truely)...One day this is all going to be over, one glorious day the Truth will stand in our midst and rule the world as it should be...Here is some scribblings from my notes written at traffic lights..."Free from the over application and the underestimation-The stretching of the truth and undermining of manipulation-To be further clothed-Free from the tyrannical deception of my own thoughts, the worlds ways and the devils lies-To free this other prisoner that lives within-"I think it's pride that causes us to resist God himself. We want to hold on to some measure of our own mental ascent and we want God to validate it. We like to think that we are above others in our ascension life.You are right in that is the trap we are either in, trying to escape from or avoid...I'm crying as I write this. Why can't the church get anywhere?Guess that depends sister, on the one hand because of the very reasons you stated above, on the other hand I think what is seen here, listened to and read is getting somewhere. Even in all it's messiness all this outworking amongst us I pray that to the observers that pass by here, the lost as well as the found, that it is primarily honest, real and seeking to be true. That what is at the core of what we believe is not that we have everything all figured out but that..I don't care to be wrong, I just want to know God. If that means that I have to confess that everything I ever thought I knew is wrong. I don't care. I just want to really know him and be with others who do.What more can be said? Amen.I want to see a real church before I die. Hang on sister, think you are pretty close hanging around here though at times it looks like one long brain surgery or is it heart surgery?Something is groaning inside me, and I'm sure I've just totally departed from this thread. Sorry. Familiar with that, much more than those other wonderful attributes like peace and joy, that seem so fleeting. Even when that 'indignation' rises up it's grievous and causes questions to arise as to motivation, pride, who do I think I am? Who's to say? What about that deck plank sticking out of your own face? But you are not to sensitive sister me thinks, just a glorious burning heart, Praise God. Lukewarm would be hard to attribute to "Spitfire" :-) About departing from this thread...It's your post sister! We are just along for the ride and I for one feel completely comfortable with you behind the wheel... :-)

One other thought. I have been focussing my life upon becoming more and more transparent everyday. Hence my attempt at unbridled honesty in these forums.Immediately after beginning to realise what Gal 2:20 is saying, I thought I had found the meaning of life. I thought "This is it. Obeying God will be easy now." However, I found the opposite to be true. I didn't realise it, but I had merely stepped onto the bottom rung of a ladder that I'll be climbing for 40-50 or more years, only to still need a significant boost at the end of that. I found myself witnessing more than normal. Fear of man was not an issue, because the fear of the Lord was greater. I would look at non-chritians and think, "If I remain silent, You get no reward for Your suffering." One tragic thing I found, was that my words were often falling on deaf ears.I would be revealing the gospel with incredible logic, because it was now becoming real in my heart, but they would refuse to understand. This would grieve me deeply. I would fluctuate between anger at their stubborness and deep saddeness toward God, at thought of Him having to send them to hell.One day I cried out to God in utter frustration, with tears streaming down my face, "God if you want me to preach the gospel simply to condemn these people to hell with no excuse for their rebellion, I'll do it. But don't expect me to like it." You know how sometimes the prayer that eminates from your heart is more for your ears than the Lord's? Well, this was one of those. It was as if I heard Jesus say, "How do you think I felt at Gethsemane?" And that was but a mere taste. I grieve more for the lost every day. I say for the lost only, because really, I look at the "backslidden" church as lost.I've distributed aproximately 200 CDs this year alone, because people won't listen to me, but they'll listen to Reidhead, Comfort, and Daniel. Recently I gave Hells Best Kept Secret and True and False Conversion to my pastor. Before hearing it my pastor's altar calls were like "Is there anyone here who hasn't received Christ? Come and we'll lead you in a prayer so you can receive this incredible exprience." Don't get me wrong, he is a man of incredible integrity, who earnestly desires to see the lost saved. Upon hearing it, he instantaneously began preaching repentance and his wife publically testified that after hearing the message, she realised that she wasn't really a christian. This kind of occurance doesn't fill a man with pride, but sickening dread, because I almost didn't give him the CD due to fearing to seem disrepectfull. After all what would it be saying about his preaching.Obedience is a fearful thing. It's an absolutely terrifying thing. But after all "the fear of the Lord is the beginning of all knowledge, and fools despise wisdom and instruction." Anyone wanna critise me, BRING IT ON!!! I need all the help I can get.Please, don't pat me on the back for this. I need all the help I can get.(One of these days, I'll figure out how to make a short post:-))

crsschk wrote:There are some things that are hard, maybe impossible to clearly articulate. Something I picked up in passing over the radio yesterday:"The peace that passes all understanding" was being 'discussed' briefly. The thought being that if you could understand it you could articulate it and being that it is 'beyond' understanding you can't, but if you have it, you most certainly know it and others that have experienced it can only nod in agreement saying amen.One word...."WOW!!!" (and yes...I'm nodding my head and saying Amen:-))Do you mind if I put that on a fridge magnet...(Sorry, it was getting a little serious around her:smart:)

As a result of this fact, I can't take responsability for the church, or even my own spirituality. Any attempt to is actually pride dressed as humility. Watchman Nee said that even to ask God to help us is a form of pride, because "us" is still in the picture. What we are saying is "I am capable of achieving perfection, but I just need a little assistance from God". Gal 2:20 surrounds the statement that we live, with the fact that we're crucified, and that it's not us living anyway...it's Christ.This is serious mind melting material, but I guess I'm beginning to appreciate the necessity of a liquid mind, founded on a solid Word. The fact that the only thing I bring to the table is my failure, is a humbling thought. Now my only serious (and ever present) enemy is spiritual pride.Wow Aaron...I'm leaking already.The questions need to be constantly asked, "Why am I saying this? Is it for desire of recognition, or a pat on the back? Is it to be recognised as someone who's 'made it'?" The reality is, if I answer "Yes." to any of these questions, I'm simply exposing more imperfection, so God is glorified even more.Yes, often ask those same questions, what's the motivation? It is a paradox often times, goodness no is the answer 'I' want to say and yet just the fact that 'I' is still a word is scary enough if that makes any sense...But as you alluded to, if any of this can be of some help to someone, somehow, if it causes them to seek the Lord in some form or fashion...It's often just a 'throw it out there and see what sticks" .(*Edit!) As far as the accolades go.., it's equally frustrating...it makes me squirmy, if I could put it that way, there is that 'I' part that surely likes part of it and that makes me want to go sit in the bleachers and just watch it all unfold. It is the Lord who gets all the glory and even saying that anymore almost sounds trite because of the oft misuse of it or that it comes from unclean lips or pen...At the end of the day I would echo the same and maybe attach;"The Lord be true and every man a liar"and"Lord, thou knowest"Great thoughts brother.

Do you mind if I put that on a fridge magnet...(Sorry, it was getting a little serious around her)Only if you send me one! :-P Guessing that last part was a typo, but I can't wait to see where our driver takes us next... :-)

there is that 'I' part that surely likes part of it and that makes me want to go sit in the bleachers and just watch it all unfold. I feel that way, too, sometimes. Please don't go sit in the bleachers. I would miss you. Thanks to all of you for helping me and putting up with me. This encourages me, for the most part, to keep going forward with hope and confidence in our Gracious God. I love all of you in all of your mess! It makes me feel better about my own clayness. Dian.

Ok, now that I have washed my face from my crying episode, where shall we go? It's so beautiful here in East Tennessee today. Wish you folks could see it. Tears are so cleansing. I think everyone should cry often :-D . My husband says I'm "high maintenance". Is that bad? Oh God, we all just need you so much. Please help us to really peel back and give you the whole banana!

Mike,Your right, it was a typo ("her" should have been "here", thanks for pointing it out:oops:)....sorry about the implications of my mistake, Dian:cry:.Spitfire wrote:Oh God, we all just need you so much. Please help us to really peel back and give you the whole banana!Fridge magnets coming out everywhere. Dian, you've gotta let me use this one:-).BTW, about the tears, I'm reminded of Kieth Daniel's comment about his family not asking him about what he's crying about, because he cries all the time. Tears are a neccessary part of christianity.God showed me in a worship service, that his favourite singing is out of tune (have you ever tried to sing when you're sobbing).Blessings.

I thank you all for your transparency!!! In my opinion this is critically needed today. I have learned the most from people who were the most willing to be transparent. To say the problems are not just with "everyone else"- but that they too have had to look deep inside themselves and let God reveal whatever He needed to.This is hard to put into words, but I will try. When you have a teacher who is just always teaching- and even if it is the truth, it is not much good unless people know that it is coming from someone who is not a pharisee. In the past, I have seen alot of good talk, but you really want to see the walk. You want to see that the walk matches up with the talk.People are not instantly changed into saints. It is a process and others who are in that process need to see that they are not alone. That there is not soemthing wrong with them because they struggle a bit or because they have not reached perfection yet. To even pretend to have reached "near perfection" is a falsehood and a hypocrite.I'll use Nancy DeMoss as an example. She is a wonderful teacher who exhorts you to reach higher, to go to that next level, to press on toward holiness, etc... but she NEVER does it without pointing out her own sin and struggles first. She doesn't want to accuse or point fingers or even pretend to be something she's not. She is not asking anybody to go where she hasn't been. She is transparent and is ready to admit her shortcomings. For this reason, I trust her. I trust her because I know she is not putting on a show or a front- just to convict people.Same thing with Paul. He wore his heart on his sleeve. This is so needed today!!! People will and can trust someone like that. They know he is not just saying things to get results. He's been there- and was still there in many ways. As time went on, he saw himself as more and more as a sinner, as the least, as the worst. When he struggled, he admitted it- but then did not stop there, he exhorted to press on.I feel that people will be drawn to and listen to someone they know they can relate to and trust. Paul, had come from a bad background, he was a mean sinner- he didn't ever pretend to hide this. He used it to show how much the Lord can change you. He never pretended to be holier than thou, or perfect. But he did encourage and exhort to press on towards perfection through God's strength and grace. He was convicting. He was a great example of an overcomer- that in itself is convicting.Anyway, for some reason, I just felt led to share my thoughts. I hope it is somewhat understandable- if not, it was good to get my thoughts into some words :-) .In Him, Chanin

OK, I'll play Dian...Had this whole football analogy going but it broke down and the other team scored... :-) Praise God Dian, it's beautiful out here in Silicon Valley as well, hmmm, right after the rain yesterday too...Tears.One of the endearing traits of that man, Mr. Daniels, one of the few who manages to articulate that which we fumble with.About those times of worship Aaron, know a little of that, been some times of embarrasment in some ways more that I was afraid I was going to affect the singers, which now that I think about it...Yes. Heart leakage.

Boy I may never get out of here...Thanks Chanin you articualted very well indeed!That transparency is so attractive. It's a magnet and to hear it expressed by others better than or maybe just in a different way...Paul is the great example especially in a thought that got picked up somewhere along the line stemming from:Phi 3:10 that I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, becoming conformed to his death; The thought being that after all the time that Paul had spent in his ministry, the things he had seen, walking with the Lord. Probably confusing this and may have the wrong scripture even, but the idea was that it was as if he didn't know Him at all...that I may know him not "I have this all figured out, let me tell you about it" though in a sense he did as he gave us "just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 2Pe 3:16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures."That he was still pursuing right up untill the end.This getting away from me, will quit while I am ahead.Exposure is something that has been floating about in this crannium a lot, this whole new life being one of complete honesty before the Lord.Luk 11:36 If then your whole body is full of light, having no part dark, it will be wholly bright, as when a lamp with its rays gives you light." And the cockroaches go scatteering.It's as scary as it is liberating.You can get away with zip and you don't want to, but the sword cuts in all directions and it hurts sometimes, but when the healing comes O how can you express it?And being on the subject of clear glass looking, need to go back and muse on some of Aarons thoughts about witnessing, an area that I feel ashamed to admit that I do very little of in day to day contact, which is quite bizzare even still not fearing men. It's not that I keep my mouth shut, I pray that what ever rambling spills forth makes some kind of sense to the hearer, but as far as initiating it...rarely. Prayers would be welcomed to kill the chicken-itis...

Fridge magnets coming out everywhere. Dian, you've gotta let me use this one.Of course, Aaron, please feel free to take any and all of my southern quips for personal use or monetary gain. It don't matter to me. ;-)We could do T-shirts as well. I like this one:H20WLKNGet it?

Spitfire wrote:H20WLKNGet it? :-? ... huh?

CJaKfOrEsT wrote:

Spitfire wrote:H20WLKNGet it? :-? ... huh?

crsschk wrote:And being on the subject of clear glass looking, need to go back and muse on some of Aarons thoughts about witnessing, an area that I feel ashamed to admit that I do very little of in day to day contact, which is quite bizzare even still not fearing men. It's not that I keep my mouth shut, I pray that what ever rambling spills forth makes some kind of sense to the hearer, but as far as initiating it...rarely. Prayers would be welcomed to kill the chicken-itis...Sorry...I only just saw this. You got it bro.:-)

Just got back from out of town ........again. Man has this thread grown since last I looked at it.We started out on sacrifical obedience and the following the voice of God. Some great posts.Took time to read them. As to tears? The puritians called tears a gift. The Psalms 126:6 He that goeth forth and weepeth.....Don't ever give up that precious gift. God puts your tears in his bottle and keeps them before Him. Keep me in prayer also ---God Bless Bro. Daryl