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"Seed"

N
Nasher

I'm working through the word "seed" in the bible with respect to Abraham.

Galatians 3:16 says:
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

So Paul is saying the "seed" is not many, but one - Christ

This is referencing when God speaks to Abraham in Genesis:

Genesis 13:15
For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.

Genesis 17:7
And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

Genesis 17:8
And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.


If my interpretation is correct then the promise of the land was made to Abraham and Jesus? Or have I misunderstood this as it seems quite strange to me?

Does anyone else have an insight into this?

S
sermonindex

It's Jewish midrash. Paul and the disciples actually use midrash quite a bit in the New Testament. There is an initial fulfillment pointing towards a fuller fulfillment. The Jewish concept of prophecy was multiple fulfillments.

Here's a fascinating read on the subject.

http://www.moriel.org/articles/sermons/midrash.htm

S
sermonindex


Hi Nasher,

Did you read Neil's post, after the Lord's revelation to him about the relationship of the covenants to one another? If not, this would be a good starting place.

Then read (please), the significance of the word 'virgin', in Genesis and Exodus, as expounded by Phil Goble in his introduction to the Orthodox Jewish Bible. This will play into your reading of Galatians and Romans 9 (at least).

When you open this link, the part you're looking for is on a rightside, in the middle, with Isa 7:14 being mentioned, specifically with respect to the importance of 'a sign'. By all means read the whole intro, but really you only need the two pages after Isa 7:14 on p vii, at http://www.afii.tv/.

With that in mind, Paul's reference to Isaac in Romans 9 assumes a significance which I would say has been lost to us completely. [Because of the many promised indicators of the Messiah down through history, which God had given by His word through His prophets, and re-iterated through some of the stories / parables told by Jesus, Jews who refused to believe that Messiah HAD COME, ought to have known God would not leave their generation unpunished (as Jesus also intimated).]

Remember there was no New Testament when the apostles were preaching. They proved who Christ was from the fulfilment of prophecy to which they could testify personally.

Lastly, there is a helpful study of Abraham in the first half of a sermon with an unlikely title 'Money and the New Move of God', by Esther Ibanga. She explains how influenced her doctrine used to be by a wrong focus on money, and that really 'the blessing of Abraham' was something else. You could probably stop listening when she gets to Galatians.

There is more to this, than simply understanding 'seed'.

I would also like to challenge the received nonsense in some people's thinking, that 'seed', in reference to Christ, is a reference to a male being born, or, to the 'male' portion of a fertilised ovum. There is not one of us alive, who has not come into being through also the seed of a woman. Furthermore, there is no truth in the notion that a child automatically takes its father's blood group. And lastly, it is the father's contribution which orders whether the child shall be a male or a female.

Thus, the promise to Eve, that HER 'seed' would ... etc, was not a scientific error on God's part. It is us who need to understand what He created, and what He meant. In the end, it was of Mary's (human) 'seed', from which the Messiah came forth.

N
Nasher

It's Jewish midrash. Paul and the disciples actually use midrash quite a bit in the New Testament. There is an initial fulfillment pointing towards a fuller fulfillment. The Jewish concept of prophecy was multiple fulfillments.

I've just started reading the link you posted but thought I'd post this while doing so.
If the sentence in Galatians 3:16 (Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ) was Midrash (I've never heard of that before so excuse my ignorance) then it seems as though the seed would be many *and* one, as opposed to *not* many *but* one as the sentence says?

N
Nasher

Another question while I think of it: The Galatians were Gentile Chrisitans, would they have known of Midrash?

N
Nasher

Just read this in the link and was alarmed by it:

"Something went wrong in the early Church; it got away from its Jewish roots. And as more Gentiles became Christians, something that Paul (in Romans 11) warned should not happen, happened. People lost sight of the root."

I would have thought that Jesus was the root?
Also, the letter to the Galatians was written because Jewish Christians were trying to make the Gentile Christians follow the works of the law etc?

I don't want to digress from my original question, just alarmed at this.

I'll pause to give yourself and other a chance to respond.

S
sermonindex

Well for one, they had Jews amongst their midst. And on the other hand, they were being taught by the same Jewish former pharisee who heavily used midrash in his own writings and exegetical teachings. When you get through the article it will begin to make more sense.

Remember too, that they were also being heavily influenced by Jewish sources and falling into error by trying to over "Judah-ise" their faith as apparent in Galatians Chapter 3. Who do you think was trying to put them back under the Law? I think they probably had a pretty good idea of many Jewish ideas and methods of the time.

Remember, that when you read Paul's letters, you have to read them the same way you would a letter that you received. Simply as that, ONE letter. Not chapters and verses, but as a whole.

S
sermonindex

I would suggest reading Romans 11 over again a few times. It doesn't conflict with the article at all. It's speaking of the election of Israel, and the inclusion of gentiles being now available. And it can also be talking about Christ. Even further evidence for the validity of what the article is trying to present.

I would just say, read the whole article, investigate the Scriptures presented, do further research on the articles points if so desired, and then sit back and pour through the Scriptures to see if what has been stated actually lines up. And lastly don't be scared to view something the way a first century Jewish believer would have viewed it. Not the way protestant seminary has trained most westerners to accept the Bible.

A
ADisciple

"And if ye be Christ's then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise" (Gal. 3.29).

That is to say, whether Jew or Gentile-- for that is the context of the above quotation-- those who are Christ's are Abraham's seed.

S
sermonindex

Getting back to our Jewish Roots today is not a good teaching. It is a teaching that is becoming more and more prevalent in Evangelical Christianity, and it has no basis in Scripture.

The apostle Paul laid great emphasis on the fact that there is no longer any distinction between Jew and Gentile among the believers in Jesus Christ. It is recorded in the book of Acts that the disciples of Jesus Christ, (without distinction to their background) were called Christians first at Antioch (Acts 11:26). However, many who now identify themselves as "Messianic" (often from Gentile backgrounds) are actually averse to being identified with the term Christian and many Jewish believers in Jesus insist on being called "Messianic Jews" rather than "Christians."

Many Christians have been stimulated and challenged by discovering more about the "Jewish roots" of the Christian faith. There are many so-called Messianic ministries which strive to enhance the understanding of the faith through teaching about the customs and traditions of the Jewish people and the ancient Jewish festivals which were a central part of the old covenant assembly of worshippers. There is, however, a vast difference between keeping or observing the feasts and teaching about the significance of the feasts in how they foreshadowed the redemption in Christ.

To read the rest of this excellent article from a Messianic Jew, please go here. This brother, Peter Cohen, I believe, sees it correctly.

https://www.givengain.com/cgi-bin/giga.cgi?cmd=cause_dir_news_item&news_id=74309&cause_id=1507

S
sermonindex

Also, this is a MUST READ, if you are going to be able to answer those today that are trying to get the Church to "go back to their Jewish Roots". Also, bookmark Peter Cohen's site. This is a Messianic Jew that has many scriptural articles on the Law, Feasts, Midrash, etc.

ANSWER TO JACOB PRASCH'S REBUTTAL OF MIDRASH: THE CAMEL'S NOSE
http://www.despatch.cth.com.au/Articles_D/CorrespondencewithJacobPraschMidrash.htm

H
Heydave

Hi Nasher,

I was looking at this as well just over the last week. I believe that the promise Paul is referring to about the Seed (Christ) is Genesis 22:16-18.

Gen 22:16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only [son]:

Gen 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which [is] upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

Gen 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

The reason I think that Paul is referring to 'this' blessing is that it has to do with 'All Nations of the earth' being blessed through The Seed. Paul in Galatians is arguing that salvation is through FAITH and not by law and that the blessing of Abraham come on the GENTILES (Nations) through Christ Jesus, so by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit. Gal 3:14 (not the promises concerning land, but the receiving of the Spirit). Note Gentiles and Nations are interchangeable words.

This verse is very important as it shows what Paul is meaning by the 'blessing of Abraham' through the Seed.

When we consider Genesis 22:16-18 it is very profound that at the point Abraham offers up his son (Issac), God in response Himself promises the sending of His son (Jesus Christ) as the promised Seed who 'will bless all nations'!


A parallel teaching is found in the book of Hebrews in particular ch.6:13-20.

Hbr 6:13 ¶ For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,

Hbr 6:14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.

Hbr 6:15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.

Hbr 6:16 For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation [is] to them an end of all strife.

Hbr 6:17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed [it] by an oath:

Hbr 6:18 That by two immutable things, in which [it was] impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

Hbr 6:19 Which [hope] we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;

Hbr 6:20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, [even] Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

This confirms that the promise comes to 'we.... who have fled for refuge to to lay hold upon the hope set before us', ...to Jesus our high priest.

What an amazing thing to behold, Jesus is the fulfilment of the promise God made to Abraham to bless the Nations (or Gentiles) and giving them His Spirit. This is in essence the New covenant that Jesus is now the mediator of to all those who receive Him. For in Him (Jesus) are all the promises of God (2 cor 1:20) and we are complete in Him (Col 2:10).

Hallelujah!!

T
twayneb

Nasher, I am ignorant of a Midrash, but I am not ignorant of the commentary the New Testament makes on this topic. Romans and Galatians as well as Hebrews I believe have a lot of commentary on this topic. My advice...Do some dividing of the Word. Where Paul makes it clear that God was speaking of the seed being Christ, assume it so and read it that way. Where Paul does not make it clear that the seed is Christ and it sounds as if he is talking about the people of physical Israel, interpret it that way. On that note however, wasn't Christ in Israelite? Additionally, there is a seed of Abraham through faith in Christ. To we who are in that class are promises as well. The physical land, however, is reserved for the Jewish people in my opinion.

S
sermonindex

Look at the "SEED" as the Holy Seed of God." The Crown of Creation is God's Proclamation or Promise [ to Himself and all Creation] that a Holy people would inherit Himself, and His attributes; ETERNAL LIFE...[ and the absolute eradication of DEATH...]

There was a company before Abraham, Israel after, and those joined to Israel, and then the Church. All begins and ends with God, and remember that Christ Jesus is and always was Jahweh the SON; God as a man.

This very God-man appeared to confirm His promise to Abraham, His seed.

Hebrews 7
The King of Righteousness
1 For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him,

2 to whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all, first being translated “king of righteousness,” and then also king of Salem, meaning “king of peace,”

3 WITHOUT father, WITHOUT mother, WITHOUT genealogy, having NEITHER beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the...... Son of God,...... remains a priest continually.[FOREVER]

{This is identifying Jesus and His eternal Stature.]

4 Now consider how great this man was, to whom even the patriarch Abraham gave a tenth of the spoils.
5 And indeed those who are of the sons of Levi, who receive the priesthood, have a commandment to receive tithes from the people according to the law, that is, from their brethren, though they have come from the loins of Abraham;

6 but he whose genealogy is not derived from them received tithes from Abraham and blessed him who had the promises. 7 Now beyond all contradiction the lesser is blessed by the better.
8 Here mortal men receive tithes, but there he receives them, of whom it is witnessed that he lives.
9 Even Levi, who receives tithes, paid tithes through Abraham, so to speak,
10 for he was still in the loins of his father when Melchizedek met him.

“ You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek.”[c]


18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness, 19 for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is thebringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.

[Greatness of the New Priest]

20 And inasmuch as He was not made priest without an oath 21 (for they have become priests without an oath, but He with an oath by Him who said to Him:


“ The LORD has sworn
And will not relent,

‘ You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek’


24 But He, because He continues FOREVER, has an unchangeable priesthood.

25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He [ Jesus] always lives to make intercession for them.[AT THE RIGHT HAND OF HIS FATHER]

This is the Primary connection to the promise of Abraham, His holy seed; JESUS; His own Father's [JAHWEH'S] holy seed, AND YET WHOLY GOD. He created the Seed, and is the SEED within Himself.


Very insightfull, meditative inquisition, NASHER.


S
sermonindex

Sorry, but that rebuttal was just not scholarly in the slightest. Instead of dealing with the historical and cultural points presented he just makes a sort of blanket statement like, " He denies that YOU, dear reader, can come to a COMPLETE understanding of ALL that God deeds to us through the Bible, if all you have in your possession is a KJV without notes (without Midrash, without Eidersheim, without Josephus). You be the judge." That may work in some circles, but not the ones who take historical Biblical critique seriously. It was obvious that some of the points that he was replying to (which he even sometimes admitted ignorance to) many times went strait over his head, yet he tried to refute them nonetheless.

And calling something "irrelevant verbiage" when it very well addresses the issue, makes the defender just look silly, since it's obviously not clicking with him.

I would suggest people go do their own research.

This has nothing to do with "going back to our Jewish roots" or the HRM or anything like that. It's trying to understand the Scriptures as they were written. By Jews, about a Jewish religion and a Jewish God.

This concept makes even more sense now that I live in a foreign country and culture. If I tried to understand Japanese culture with my American mindset, I'd not only be missing out on major points, but I could never be taken seriously if I tried to explain my stance. But we can all continue to pretend that Christianity is a White American and European Gospel and should be understood that way, since that seems to be the force that spread it the best, if we like.

S
sermonindex

this is a MUST READ, if you are going to be able to answer those today that are trying to get the Church to "go back to their Jewish Roots".
Hi Pilgrim,

I want to comment on your statement here, because of the colossal amount of Hebrew in the paper I posted on baptism, just in case you think I'm 'trying to get the church to go to their Jewish Roots'.

There are a few things, really, which perhaps ought to be said. For instance, the person who wrote that paper is a missionary to orthodox Jews. That's his calling. So, like Paul, who was finally arrested by Jews when he was in the Temple keeping a vow he'd made, that missionary is keen to draw Jews in to 'Moshiach's Judaism' as he calls it, because it is the genuine continuation which God designed for Jews, when the Old Covenant was over.

For those who are not Jews, the keeping of any feasts or rituals may or may not seem relevant to them, but, how can it be a sin to do so, whatever their natural roots? What, say, a Gentile Christian marries a Jewish Christian who feels more comfortable celebrating Messiah in this way, does the Bible prohibit it? I don't think so, but there is always the possibility of losing sight of Christ and the ministry of the Holy Spirit, if ritual-keeping becomes the focus. However, Protestant Christians are just as guilty of keeping ritual rather than the spirit of the ritual, in their own forms of meeting, quickly developing traditions of their own.

We can all do with less religion and more life!

However, I take the point that Jews who believe in Messiah are Christians, and we are all one together in Christ. We have ALL become 'from above' if we have been born again, and there is a constant tension, despite Paul's explanation to the Galatians, for Jews who find it difficult to accept there may not be a 'below' for them, in Christ, just as there isn't a 'below' for non-Jewish Christians.

With regard to baptism as the apostles understood it, its Jewish origin is utterly relevant. Without it, non-Jewish Christians are in danger of making up their own religion, and this may account for the large number of church attenders who have not really decided to follow Jesus.

We need a bit more of Acts 5:13 And of the rest durst no man join himself to them: but the people magnified them.

C
Christinyou

1 Peter 1:23-25 Being born again , not of corruptible seed , but of incorruptible , by the word of God , which liveth and abideth for ever . For all flesh is as grass , and all the glory of man as the flower of grass . The grass withereth , and the flower thereof falleth away : But the word of the Lord endureth for ever . And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you .

Christ is the Seed of rebirth, He being in a body made of a woman, no longer, but now with the Sperma of God our Father, the parenting Seed. He is The Word of God the incorruptable Seed.

corruptible seed , but of incorruptible , by the word of God , which liveth and abideth for ever .

Strong's Greek Dictionary
3056. logos
Search for G3056 in KJVSL
logoV logos log'-os
from 3004; something said (including the thought); by implication, a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension, a computation; specially, (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (i.e. Christ):

John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word , and the Word was with God , and the Word was God . The same was in the beginning with God . All things were made by him ; and without him was not any thing made that was made . In him was life ; and the life was the light of men .

"The Word", same Logos; was the Word , and the Word was with God , and the Word was God .

The seed of a woman, the ovum. The Seed of the Father, the parentage spora, or sperma of God.

In Christ: Phillip

A
ADisciple

To read the rest of this excellent article from a Messianic Jew, please go here. This brother, Peter Cohen, I believe, sees it correctly.

Thanks, Pilgrim, for this link. I haven't of course been able to check out all that's on their website but I believe you're right in saying Peter Cohen gets it correctly.

That's refreshing!

...But I do wish the Messianic Jews would be happy enough to be called Christians like the rest of us, and like the early church themselves (who were Jews, many of them). Or even Messianics, that would be fine.

Why is it necessary to proclaim what the apostle Paul called loss? Or is there still some glorying in the natural heritage, maybe?

Am I a Messianic Gentile, for example? ...No, no point in saying that: no glory in being a Gentile. :) ...Although I guess I could boast in my natural heritage even as a Gentile, and begin glorying in my ancestry...

...And I started to lay it out here, but felt a check in my spirit and erased it. No advantage in that!

No, together, both Jew and Gentile, we have been created in Christ Jesus ONE NEW MAN, bonded together in the love of Christ.

"If any man be in Christ he is a NEW CREATION...

Wow.

S
sermonindex

I have been very refreshed by his articles. I don't know, I should check. I am not sure if he calls himself a Messianic Jew or not. It's ok by me if he does that to reach other Jews.

I have known many "Messianics" and the ones that are not into the HRM (Hebrew Roots Movement) have no problem being called a Christian. So, maybe like Paul they are just using the name to reach other Jews.

Thanks, bro.

N
Nasher

The attitude of some people in this thread has greived me, are we not supposed to be one?

Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. (John 17:20-21)

Whatever you want to call yourself - Christian, Messianic, Believer, it doesn't really matter, what matters is:

you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Galatians 3:26-29)


I don't know where we go from here, all I want to do is know what God is saying through His word.

S
sermonindex

Nasher:
quote:
"The attitude of some people in this thread has greived me, are we not supposed to be one?"

why are you grieved?

because of a fellow brother's or sister's "attitude"?

and the implication we are not one?

is that love?

if people ask me, 'who are you? what are you? what 'religion' (a word that is fell) are you'?

i tell them succintly and simply, "i'm a Jew who follows Jesus"......

do i celebrate the Jewish holidays? no.....save one, Yom Kippur, the day of atonement, except that was one day out of the year, but with Jesus, everyday is now Yom Kippur.

may i make a suggestion? a valuable tome, entitled "Life Together", 128 pages written by Dietrich Bonhoeffer, if you havent already read it.

Dietrich clearly delineates the difference between the dark controlling urges of human love, as opposed to the Divine Love of Jesus. It's really quite good, deceptively simple, yet Powerful in its substance and witness...

A few years back, in church, a well meaning, but confused brother told me i was no longer a "Jew", but a "Christian", and all i had for him was this Psalm...137

"By the waters of Babylon,
there we sat down and wept,
when we remembered Zion.
On the willows there
we hung up our lyres.
For there our captors
required of us songs,
and our tormentors, mirth, saying,
"Sing us one of the songs of Zion!"
How shall we sing the LORD’s song
in a foreign land?
If I forget you, O Jerusalem,
let my right hand forget its skill!
Let my tongue stick to the roof of my mouth,
if I do not remember you,
if I do not set Jerusalem
above my highest joy!"

verses 1-6 (ESV--sorry Pilgrim, just the way it is)

The Psalter is, after all the Prayer Book of Jesus.

so why the grief? is your love with agenda? or without?

neil

S
sermonindex

Awesome, Neil! I'm so glad you've never lost sight of the wonderful gift you've been given by God, being a natural branch of Israel. I'm also glad you don't subscribe to any of this replacementist nonsense. Keep on.

N
Nasher

why are you grieved?

Look through the posts again and you'll see.

I'm afraid I don't really understand the rest of your post or why you posted it.

S
sermonindex

Hi Nasher,

The way you phrased your opening post, I thought you wanted to do your own research in such a way as to discover for yourself, how to understand scriptural references to 'Seed' (capital s), as opposed to 'seeds'; to 'see' for yourself how Paul is confident that the "Seed" was Christ, and that He was the same seed God promised Eve, as much as to Mary.

This is a huge study (if you do it properly), and I don't claim to have done it all. In fact, Paul makes a huge shortcut for us, by laying the thumbnail out, in Romans.

The reason Jewishness comes into it, is that this is the name by which Abraham's descendants were finally known, God increasing His revelation of Himself and His plan, down through their generations after Adam, so that WHEN Christ (Messiah in Hebrew) was born, they would KNOW it was HIM - the promised "Seed".

However, hidden within this physical journey, is a strong spiritual message about liberty from sin - purity (virginity), holiness (separation), espousal (promise to marry or be married); how to tune into God's values on these matters, how to fulfil all that He desires us to become, as 'the generation of Jesus Christ' (Matt 1:1)

Right back in Genesis, God had made man in His own image. After the fall, when the man had children, scripture says they were in his own likeness (the generationS of Adam). So, the stage is set. God wants sons in HIS own image still, and yet Adam's race have received the seed of sin and death through unbelief.

These themes are interwoven throughout the account of what happened next and how in the fulness of time God provided that "Seed" who should crush the serpent's head IN US, that we may become BY FAITH the sons of God.

Through Abraham, 'Israel', the spiritual man, came into being, and from him (Jacob), in natural terms, the "Seed" had to be descended. This is refined further through the life of David (now in the promised land, who eventually had reclaimed all of the land given to Abraham). However Solomon (meaning Peace), quickly lost hold of it, and it has never since been reclaimed corporately by the 'children of Israel'. The spiritual truths in this narrative only prove that the problem with man is not his fighting capability, but his heart towards God.

Genesis 50 contians this valuable prophecy about the fate of 'Israel'. '... and the physicians embalmed Israel. 3 And forty days were fulfilled for him; for so are fulfilled the days of those which are embalmed: and the Egyptians mourned for him threescore and ten days.' Eventually, Israel's descendant, Jesus Christ, was embalmed, representative of the whole human race,, that when we have wept over our sins (the Egyptians in our lives), and got over our own death in Him, we may be a new creation through having received the incorruptible seed of His life (the engrafted word), and live in His resurrection.

Perhaps you had hoped for a discussion about the land, but, if we take the words of Jesus VERY seriously, who never talked about the restoration of 'Israel' as even His disciples still hoped for it just before His [correction] ascension, (Acts 1), then there are many allusions to another country somewhere, including 'My kingdom is not of this world' and 'God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.' (Heb 11:40)

By Acts 3, Peter is talking about 'the restitution of ALL things' (not just Israel), and I believe Jewish Christians are wise to take their lead from him on that point.

A
ADisciple

this replacementist nonsense.

I haven't seen any of that on this thread.

It's a mistake to teach that God replaced Israel with the church.

What he did was break off the unbelieving Jews from the olive tree of Israel, and graft the Gentiles into the olive tree of Israel, making them part of the church along with believing Jews.

Neil is a believing Jew, as were Paul and Peter of old. I'm a believing Gentile.

Together we are one in Christ. Together we are the "Israel of God."

S
sermonindex


To Nasher and EverestoSama,

I forgot to mention, now I understand what 'midrash' means, that if you read Phil Goble's introduction to the OJB as I suggested, with reference only to his analysis of the Hebrew word for virgin (as in virgin Mary), you will see midrash emerging, and in being able to justify Mary's first son, as 'the Messiah'.

A
ADisciple

I'm not sure what you're grieved about Nasher, but to go back to your original post, the promise of the land was made to the seed of Abraham.

But Paul with apostolic authority says, "For the promise that he should be be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith..." (Rom. 4.13).

Wow. Not just "the land," but the whole world! And the ancients understood that word "world" (Gk. kosmos) to include the heavens as well as the earth. the cosmos, the universe!

And this is for Abraham and his seed. Who are the blessed seed who inherit all things?

"...Thy seed, which is Christ" (Gal. 3.16).

And, "if ye be Christ's then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise" (Gal. 3.29).

S
sermonindex

I don't see the Church as replacing physical Israel. I think that is nonsense.

I see the Church as a continuation of spiritual Israel (those that have the faith of Abraham).

3,000 jews were saved on Pentecost. This is the Church.

Gentiles were grafted in, they did not replace anything.

S
sermonindex


Hi Nasher,

This page makes some salient points regarding Abraham, and the beginning of the gospel.

http://www.biblewheel.com/wheel/spokes/Aleph_Abraham.asp

S
sermonindex

HEBREWS 11

37 "They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— 38 the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, living in caves and in holes in the ground.

39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40 since God had planned something better for us.....

..... so that only together with us would they be made perfect."
..........................................................
"I see the Church as a continuation of spiritual Israel (those that have the faith of Abraham).

3,000 jews were saved on Pentecost. This is the Church.

Gentiles were grafted in, they did not replace anything."
PILGRIM777...............................................
Revelation 7

9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count,.......

....from every nation, tribe, people and language,......

standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:
“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.”

There is no separation of Jew or Gentile in the New Testament, especially defined within the gospel of Paul. There is no Abrahamic Seed, and a separate Jewish one.

There is ONE seed, which is Christ, and He fell into the ground and died, an brought forth the holy seed of God, His beloved Family; the Church...US....and was slain before the foundation of the world.

Collosians 3
"Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, 10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him,

11 where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all."

S
sermonindex

quote:

"I'm afraid I don't really understand the rest of your post or why you posted it."

thats the second time in the last two posts i've lovingly written to you, that you've responded in exactly the same verbiage, ie, you dont understand my post, nor why i posted it.

okay.

i dust my feet off, may Jesus hold your hand, heart and soul in His Loving Embrace, neil

S
sermonindex

Yes, I like this.

And, "if ye be Christ's then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise" (Gal. 3.29).

S
sermonindex

Another question while I think of it: The Galatians were Gentile Christians, would they have known of Midrash?
In every Church in the Roman world there would have been believing Jews present.

As for this Midrash, read the article and I found too many discrepancies, too many errors in it. Came to the conclusion that it must be of unbelieving Jewish origin so they can convince others that there is a multiple fulfillment of scriptures so that the Christ that did come would be reduced to just another prophet and the real Messiah had not yet come.

Midrash is a dangerous teaching.

S
sermonindex

Came to the conclusion that it must be of unbelieving Jewish origin so they can convince others that there is a multiple fulfillment of scriptures so that the Christ that did come would be reduced to just another prophet and the real Messiah had not yet come. Midrash is a dangerous teaching.

You misunderstand it then.

C
Christinyou

this replacementist nonsense.
I love it

This "replacementist nonsense", has nothing to do with Isreal or the Gentile nations, it does have all to do with our salvation. For, keep the Law has been replaced with, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."Ac 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Ro 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Ac 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Believe the truth, the Holy Spirit convicts the new convert of sin and turns our Faith to Christ.

Ro 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on Him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

What was imputed? Righteousness by the Christ in us, of whom He is now our only Life that is pleasing to the Father, "It is no longer I who live but Chrit who lives in me."

Romans 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Saved from sin and Justified, by Jesus Christ on whom we believe and in whom we live and move and have our being.

This is the replacement, a person in whom all things are for and to His Glory and God the Father of His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ our all in all in all that we who believe become the son's of God.

In Christ: Phillip

S
sermonindex

Are we all seen as one and equal in Christ?
Of course, no question about it.
Does God have a special and specific prophetic plan for the Jews and for Israel?
You'd better believe it.
Trying to teach anything else is replacementist, no way around it. The roots are very subtle though. Many of us have been raised thinking this way without knowing it.

(For the record I'm not Jewish by birth, so I have no agenda on this stance)

N
Nasher

What grieves me most is that where in Christ's prayer in John 17 He prays that we would be one, some people are trying to make two - Gentile Christian and Jewish Christian/Jew who believes in Jesus/Messianic Jew

Why does a person feel the need to say they are a "Jewish" Christian, it would be like me being asked by someone what am I and me saying: I'm a "male" Christian, there is just no need for it, is that love?

If you are Jewish then lucky you (Romans 3:1-2), however your real identity is in Christ, not in your flesh.

My only agenda is to find out the truth and then preach it.


I too agree that the Church has not "replaced" Israel, however I don't know why it keeps getting brought up as no one to my knowledge has suggested this?

Romans 11:19-20
You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear

What have the unbelieving Israelites been broken off from and the believing Gentiles been grafted into?

R
roadsign

"your real identity is in Christ, not in your flesh"

Yes. This is exactly how Christ destroyed the dividing barrier: by giving us a brand new identity that is neither Jew nor Non-Jew, male nor female, master nor slave....
See Eph. 2. To re-erect the dividing wall by resting on fleshly (non-spiritual) distinctions is to divide Christ's "One New Humanity".

and.......... alas.......... somewhere along the line you will have hostilities and war.

Diane


H
Heydave

Nasher,

I am also sad that this has become a debate about Jewish Roots & replacement theology.

What I don't understand is why you have not responded to any of the posts that tried to just respond to your original question. You just picked up on the controversy! What was the point of your original post?

N
Nasher

Nasher,

I am also sad that this has become a debate about Jewish Roots & replacement theology.


Hey Heydave,

I'm sad too, I hope you noticed that it wasn't me who brought it up?


What I don't understand is why you have not responded to any of the posts that tried to just respond to your original question. You just picked up on the controversy! What was the point of your original post?

I don't believe anyone has answered my actual first question:

"If my interpretation is correct then the promise of the land was made to Abraham and Jesus?"

Also, the question in my second post hasn't been answered either:

"If the sentence in Galatians 3:16 (Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ) was Midrash (I've never heard of that before so excuse my ignorance) then it seems as though the seed would be many *and* one, as opposed to *not* many *but* one as the sentence says?"


I genuinely haven't made up my mind on this issue but am reading to try and find out.

S
sermonindex

For the curious, the writer of the Midrash article actually has a more in depth sermon on this site that goes into much greater detail, which can be found here; (as I can sense even by some comments that the authors intent and teaching might have been misunderstood)

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=11893&commentView=itemComments

He'll go into Greek, Hebrew, Church History, and Jewish History, for those of you looking for some solid Biblical teaching on the subject. I would recommend at least giving this one, and maybe a few others of his on the topic, a good listen before you jump to any conclusions (either for or against). It will challenge the mindset and understanding of many perhaps, but that's not always a bad thing.

And as always, if you're curious about this stuff, LOOK IT UP FOR YOURSELVES. Don't just deny it on a "gut feeling" or because it challenges the way you've been taught to believe or understand.

H
Heydave

Nasher,

I don't believe anyone has answered my actual first question: "If my interpretation is correct then the promise of the land was made to Abraham and Jesus?"

I thought I had answered this in my first post. I don't believe that Paul was referring to the promise of the land, but the blessing of ALL NATIONS through the Seed as written in Genesis 22:18.

It is obvious in Pauls letter to the Galatians that he is not dealing with 'land' issues, either future or past. He is trying to establish 'righteousness by faith', not by law and the context of Galatians 3:16 is shown in Galatians 3:1-14 as the 'blessing of Abraham' being righteousness by faith and the receiving of the Spirit (New Covenant)through Christ's redemption on the cross.

I'm not getting into your second question, as Midrash is a different subject completely and I think has nothing to add to understanding this part of scripture.

N
Nasher

It is obvious in Pauls letter to the Galatians that he is not dealing with 'land' issues, either future or past.

Are you saying the the promises to Abraham did not include the land?

S
sermonindex

God is Good, God the Holy Ghost is the Brightest Light, the Greatest Counseler, in that He exposes ALL, including a man's heart, and when you wrote this to me:

"If you are Jewish then lucky you...."

your heart is exposed. All can see.

as far as that Mountaintop of a Prayer, The High Priestly Prayer of Jesus in John 17, considering the hundreds of denominations, churches, schisms, and i include that scarlet whore in rome with its man of perdition and its superstition,priestcraft and idolatry, and you deign to fling it at me?...in rebuke?

shameful. you have sinned against a brother.


May God deal with you gently and lovingly.

i have no more to say.

P
PaulWest

Saints,

Please keep this discussion free of semetic insinuations and provocations, or it will be terminated. You are reminded to pray for the mind of Christ before submitting your thoughts in this public medium. Thank you.

Paul

H
Heydave

Nasher,

Are you saying the the promises to Abraham did not include the land?

Of course the promises to Abraham, (and Issac and Jacob) include the land. What I am saying is that it is not that part of the promises that Paul is talking about. There are promises to the natural decendants of Abraham (incl the land) and there is a much fuller promise to the spiritual Seed of Abraham, which comes as a result of the natural seed. Is not Jesus Christ the Jewish Messiah, of the natural line of Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Judah and David?

Now look at Galatians 3:8&9.

8.And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen (Gentiles) through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying], In thee shall all nations be blessed.

9.So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

With what are we blessed? What is this promise?

Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

God sent forth His Son - THE SEED.

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

The Spirit of Sonship comes from the promised Seed (Christ) to those who belong to Christ. (Galatians 3:29).
So because we belong to The Seed (Christ) we are Abraham's
seed (small s) and heirs of the promise, even heirs of God Himself. It's ALL because of Christ, it's ALL in Him and if we are 'in Him', then we partake of everything He has recieved as the rightful heir of promise.

I don't see what the confusion is.

C
Christinyou

HeyDave, You are right, there is confusion. You have made it simple for me.

The seed of Adam is satan, the Seed of Abraham is Christ.

We are blessed with faithful Abraham because of his seed that all the way to Joseph and Mary we have been shown the seed to David and beyond to Joseph and Mary. That Seed is Christ, making Him all man by Mary and All God by The Holy Spirit which came upon Mary and the Seed of the Father our God, making Christ who He is, all God and all man.

Thank you again, and bless the Holy Spirit; for thirty five years this has been confusion for me, and now is revealed.
That is why the Seed, Jesus Christ is so important to those that that are the Body of Christ His Church, because that Seed is now in those that believe. Physically quickened to contain the heavenly Seed of God, His only begotten Son, in us making us now in Spirit as Christ, not Christ Himself, but all that I do, I want to allow Him to come forth in me as me.

Thanks again for the words that the Holy Spirit used in me for this truth.

In Christ: Phillip

S
sermonindex

Hey you learned brethren, I just found this and am working my way through it.

http://www.mercifultruth.com/links-promisedland.htm

What do you think of it? I think it fits well with this discussion.

btw, posting this link does not mean I agree with the other articles on his site.

D
davidc

Nasher, I understand your bewilderment when you say:

"I too agree that the Church has not "replaced" Israel, however I don't know why it keeps getting brought up as no one to my knowledge has suggested this?"

But, as EverestOsama writes "God has a special and specific prophetic plan for the Jews and for Israel?", and not all christians believe that this is the case, although it is clearly taught throughout old and new testaments. This plan specifically concerns Christ and the seed.

Most christians believe that the nation of Israel (Israel according to the flesh) has been replaced IN THIS PRESENT AGE by the church, (including Jews and Gentiles in one body); and this is true. But some believe further that this body, the church is the fulfillment of all the promises and prophesies made in the old testament. When they read old testament prophesies concerning the future blessing of Israel (Isaiah 59 and 60, Zech 12 to 14 and others), they reinterpret them to refer to the blessings bestowed by Christ on the church, and see no future plan for the nation of Israel.

'They do not like the details of prophesy which some have worked out, in which Israel seems to have a separate destiny from the church. And they do not like the implied theology. To their way of thinking,any future blessing of Israel as a nation must be a backward step, a regression in God's plan. They believe that Spiritual realities in Christ have replaced the Jewish types that pointed to them. They believe that the church has replced Israel, the church has become the new Israel and the old Israel is superceeded forever.' (James Boice Romans vol 3)

David

S
sermonindex

"God has a special and specific prophetic plan for the Jews and for Israel?",
Why is this word "replacement" being used here? Doesn't any one read how many Jews were being saved in the first century? or do we ignore that?

I find that there is lot of this ignoring of scriptures because it doesn't fit into the way we have been taught. Why can't we accept the fact that the message of the Gospel was presented to the Jew first for the first few years, the gentiles were not even invited in until a few chapters down.

Thousands of Jews received the gospel in one day and then another. While the Jews were being saved, Philip went down in Samaria and preached Christ there and the half breeds of Israel were brought in and then finally the opening the door to the Gentiles with Cornelius household.

This idea that the Church replaces the Jews is stupid since it was to the Jew that God first came by way of Jesus Christ and by Pentecost.

The amalgamation of all races were blended into the body of Christ which is now called body of Christ. Why can't we accept that? Why do we have to strain at a gnat?

What becomes even more crazy is the idea that God has some special thing He wants to with the Jews. Why does God want to bring disunity by tearing apart the body of Christ to which the Jews are connected? Paul doesn't make any distinction between races in Christ, he says that we are all one in Christ Jesus.

I/we are connected to the Jew in the body of Christ, if God does something special for the Jew, we are pulled into that and we become apart of that special thing as well, as we are all connected.

Why can't we accept that?

D
DesiJr

Amen.

S
sermonindex

don't believe anyone has answered my actual first question:

"If my interpretation is correct then the promise of the land was made to Abraham and Jesus?"

Also, the question in my second post hasn't been answered either:

"If the sentence in Galatians 3:16 (Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ) was Midrash (I've never heard of that before so excuse my ignorance) then it seems as though the seed would be many *and* one, as opposed to *not* many *but* one as the sentence says?".........NASHER

REPOST: Nasher....I gave it a shot. Here it is:

Look at the "SEED" as the Holy Seed of God." The Crown of Creation is God's Proclamation or Promise [ to Himself and all Creation] that a Holy people would inherit Himself, and His attributes; ETERNAL LIFE...[ and the absolute eradication of DEATH...]

There was a company before Abraham, Israel after, and those joined to Israel, and then the Church. All begins and ends with God, and remember that Christ Jesus is and always was Jahweh the SON; God as a man.

This very God-man appeared to confirm His promise to Abraham, His seed.

Hebrews 7
The King of Righteousness
1 For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him,

2 to whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all, first being translated “king of righteousness,” and then also king of Salem, meaning “king of peace,”

3 WITHOUT father, WITHOUT mother, WITHOUT genealogy, having NEITHER beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the...... Son of God,...... remains a priest continually.[FOREVER]

{This is identifying Jesus and His eternal Stature.]

4 Now consider how great this man was, to whom even the patriarch Abraham gave a tenth of the spoils.
5 And indeed those who are of the sons of Levi, who receive the priesthood, have a commandment to receive tithes from the people according to the law, that is, from their brethren, though they have come from the loins of Abraham;

6 but he whose genealogy is not derived from them received tithes from Abraham and blessed him who had the promises. 7 Now beyond all contradiction the lesser is blessed by the better.
8 Here mortal men receive tithes, but there he receives them, of whom it is witnessed that he lives.
9 Even Levi, who receives tithes, paid tithes through Abraham, so to speak,
10 for he was still in the loins of his father when Melchizedek met him.

“ You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek.”[c]


18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness, 19 for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is thebringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.

[Greatness of the New Priest]

20 And inasmuch as He was not made priest without an oath 21 (for they have become priests without an oath, but He with an oath by Him who said to Him:


“ The LORD has sworn
And will not relent,

‘ You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek’


24 But He, because He continues FOREVER, has an unchangeable priesthood.

25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He [ Jesus] always lives to make intercession for them.[AT THE RIGHT HAND OF HIS FATHER]

This is the Primary connection to the promise of Abraham, His holy seed; JESUS; His own Father's [JAHWEH'S] holy seed, AND YET WHOLY GOD. He created the Seed, and is the SEED within Himself.

N
Nasher

God is Good, God the Holy Ghost is the Brightest Light, the Greatest Counseler, in that He exposes ALL, including a man's heart, and when you wrote this to me:

"If you are Jewish then lucky you...."

your heart is exposed. All can see.

as far as that Mountaintop of a Prayer, The High Priestly Prayer of Jesus in John 17, considering the hundreds of denominations, churches, schisms, and i include that scarlet whore in rome with its man of perdition and its superstition,priestcraft and idolatry, and you deign to fling it at me?...in rebuke?

shameful. you have sinned against a brother.


May God deal with you gently and lovingly.

i have no more to say.


Thank you for cutting short my quote of "If you are Jewish then lucky you (Romans 3:1-2), however your real identity is in Christ, not in your flesh." to "If you are Jewish then lucky you....", the fact that I was being genuine has obviously been missed in your (wrong) judgement of me.
Romans 3:1-2 says "What advantage then has the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision? Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God", so I say again, if you are Jewish then lucky you.

Only God knows my heart, not you. This isn't the first time i've been wrongly judged by you, but it will be the last. I'm not going to go into any more details of this because it is pointless.

N
Nasher

Saints,

Please keep this discussion free of semetic insinuations and provocations, or it will be terminated. You are reminded to pray for the mind of Christ before submitting your thoughts in this public medium. Thank you.

Paul


Paul, I have made no semitic insinuations or provocations, I have nothing against Jews and Arabs.

Feel free to terminate this discussion, it will probably be for the best as there is too much (wrong) judgement in it. I will no longer be posting to it any more nor any other discussions for a time.

P
PaulWest

Feel free to terminate this discussion, it will probably be for the best as there is too much (wrong) judgement in it. I will no longer be posting to it any more nor any other discussions for a time.

Closed.

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