Shepherdship errors as they stand today!!

Let me say strongly from the beginning that i am not against true authentic leadership and/or pastors and them that are in positions of oversight! But i do want to outline some things ive observed over the years regarding the errors of shepherdship. But that being the case i will mostly quote passages from holy scripture. So I hope you will come on board and join me for a brief summary - but with open hearts and ears to hear what the spirit saith!

Much was spoken against the errors of shepherdship years ago - and so i will not go over old ground ... as such.

But simply refresh the mind with some thoughts to consider:

I BELIEVE ALL TRUE LEADERSHIP WILL ABIDE BY THE FOLLOWING:

1. They will NOT (lord) it over the flock:

THEY WILL RECOGNIZE THEY HAVE A POSITION OF GREATER ACCOUNTABILITY AND responsibility as those who must give account. But as genuine leaders they not succumb to a position of lording it over others. Like diotrophes in 3rd John who who not allow his church members to fellowship with Johns company - and those who do not obey the edict, were simply cast out of the church! Diotrophes was a case example of lording it OVER the flock. ( If you are part of a church that holds to shepherdship ... then the shepherd will lord it over the flock. As he mistakenly believes he displaces Christ as the shepherd of the sheep. But the bible still teaches the Lordship of Jesus Christ to one and to all both individually and collectively as his body, who alone are answerable to christ on the day of judgment, and not to man or to men...

2. They will lead by example: By example i mean the (leading) is a leading that is one that models Christ to others! that models how to be a witness and models a life that bears fruit! And models christianity in a way that others both see and behold ... this man ... is a true servant and follower od Jesus! he sets the example and therefore ... he is leading by example - in all that he does and in the way he carries himself from day to day in his walk - with God. Those that lead because they hold to the view they are above others and higher than others under them - will soon fall if they are not circumspect and realize it is the grace of God that they are allowed to be put into the ministry. Indeed we are no one ...in ...and ...of ...ourseves!

3. True leaders are models of humility: There is no "big noting of themseves" No trying to increase there fame! they know that if a man does exalt himself he will be abased! (put down) They know that in God's kingdom and in God's economy the way up - is down! John baptist said it well " i must decrease and HE must INCREASE! Well said John!

4. Anything that usurps the headship of Christ as the captain of our salvation and as great high priest over the house of God is indeed suspect and questionable - pe say.
The one thing that God keeps re-iterating to me over and over as of late - is the fact we need to restore Jesus to his rightful position - and that is ...Jesus as (the HEAD of the church) after all he is the one that walked among the 7 seven churches in asia and said if they dont repent of such and such - then i will remove the candlestick from amongst them! We need to get back to holding to the head - and recognize he walks amongst churches - and he will remove leaders that do the wrong thing. In fact the book of Revelation chapters 2 and 3 show Jesus doing what he promised to do and that is ...govern ...as the head of the church. Repent or else ... was often ...the warning...given

5. They will not hold to a (top-to-bottom) hierarchy structure within the church: Diotrophes again is a case example of leadership gone mad and gone bad: truly he believed in his own fame and publicity overmuch. Although he was percieved to be at the top ... by those that followed and to those who submitted to him. This was a classic case of a (top to bottom) leadership role. Where no one but diotrophes ruled - and what he said ... goes ..and what he said stuck!! and failure to heed his rulings was seen as nothing short of being tantamount to both disobedience and rebellion - and an utter lack of submission. Hence he cast them out - that obeyed not his word

sonofthunder, in your recent thread titled "When Does Authority Go Too Far?" you did not really engage. I'm curious to know if you disagreed with the stances of those like pilgrim777 and if that's why you did not engage or give any feedback. It seems you do not really want to consider or engage in discussion with those who have such "radical" views on authority compared to the "mainstream". Just asking so that we can know to stay out of it if that's the case. Blessings,
Oracio

A shepherds work is to care and
tend for the flock. Jesus asked
Peter: "Do you love Me??" Feed
my sheep."

This topic is much needed. The popeish leadership of churches is everywhere, especially in fundamentalism. We have more sheep-shearers than shepherds anymore! I'm not trying to go antinomian, but something's has to change. Thank you for posting it.

There are multitudes of "shepherds" in the Church acting like pharaohs who enslave God's people in their minds and make them promote their own agendas. They have been very succesful at holding God's people in fear of disobience and breaking allegience to them. This problem is somewhat similar to the history of the Catholic church with their popes, bishops and priests, though to a less extreme degree. The LORD is now commanding these shepherds to "Let My people go", and He is calling His sheep to hear HIS voice and follow HIM(John 10:27; see also all of John 10).
Dear brothers and sisters, will you "follow the Lamb wherever He goes?"(Rev.14:4), or will you follow and obey a man instead.
How I long to see the day when the people of God are truly free from the traditions of men which make the Word of God null and void in their lives!
Set us free to serve You and You alone oh Lord, according to Your Word and not the dictates of men! Let us be like Peter who said, "we must obey God rather than men!"

Here are a couple of verses that speak volumes.

"Take heed to yourselves, and to all the flock over which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers to feed the church of God which He hath purchased with His own blood" (Acts 20.28).

That's the KJV, but the original Greek for "over" is "en" and so this should read, "in" or "among."

"...All the flock AMONG which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers..."

Not OVER which, but AMONG which. And overseers simply means those who "watch over," not rule over, the flock.

And this one: "The elders which are AMONG you..." (Here the KJV has it right.) "The elders which are among you I exhort, who also am an elder..." (I Pt. 5.1). Notice that also: Peter says he was AN elder, not THE elder...

...So much for the RC hierarchy, then, with the pope and all his archbishops and bishops and so on.

Of course we loudly exclaim against that. But if Scripture clearly shows it to be false, why have the Protestant denominations, many of them, set it up as well?

Peter goes on... "Not as lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock."

How I long to see the day when the people of God are truly free from the traditions of men which make the Word of God null and void in their lives!

Amen. I wonder to what degree it can be said of us Bible believers what Jesus said to the Pharisees of His day: "Ye do err not knowing the Scriptures..."

All I can say: AMEN!!!

Pilgrim777 you rightly say
"the preponderance of NT Scripture and the indwelling Holy Spirit tells us that no one is over us except the Lord Jesus."

We are all individually members of Christ and as His body, we hold the head, and receive all grace and blessing from Him. This is the work of the Holy Spirit in the church, to make us, who are individually temples of the Holy Spirit into one temple, the House of God.

The Holy Spirit also builds us up and edifies us by the operations of the gifts of the Spirit. These gifts are seen in 1 Cor 12 and Eph 4. The Ephesians passage speaks of pastors being a gift of Christ to the church. This in no way makes a pastor any higher than any other member of the body, it is just a gift that Christ has given him to pastor or keep an eye on the church. He should exercise his gift according to the grace of God given to him, as should all others with various gifts to buid up the body of Christ.

When it comes to elders and leaders, all the new testament teaches is that Paul as an apostle appointed them in various churches. They were not elected or appointed by the church itself nor from an outside body. Paul appointed them. Where is Paul now, and does anyone have the apostolic authority today to appoint elders or leaders? I believe not.

But the Christ has provided the answer in scripture. We read:

“And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you; and to esteem them very highly in love for their work’s sake. And be at peace among yourselves,” 1 Thess 5. 12,13

At the same time, the apostle distinctly sets forth the common responsibility of all the saints. “Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men. See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men,” 1 Thess 5. 14,15.

Also:

“Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation,” Heb. 13v7, and

“I beseech you, brethren (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints), that ye submit yourselves unto such, and to everyone that helpeth with us, and laboureth,” 1 Cor 16. 15,16

This puts the onus back onto us, the individual members of the body, to willingly in love submit ourselves to those whom we consider meet these descriptions.

In Him
David

I am so glad to see this talked about.I hope and pray the Lord will open our eyes to the deceit of sheperdship as we see that day approaching!

hi, does the bible word submit mean anything to us.do you see Jesus leaving His home in heaven and submiting to the laws of rome and speaking not a word at the hands of the hangmen..watch Him wash the feet of His followers.we being equal in all ways to all men must humble ourselves and become servants in order to be used of God. we also being citizens of a heavenly kingdom must submit to the governmental authority "over"us...we are told to submit ouselves to each other and to those that are overseers...what is submit? it is to get under and lift up the mission of another...if you or i cannot submit to man in love than how do we submit to God...we certainly are a proud and haughty group. His word says that if my people who are called by My name shall humble themselves...no sense going any further until we meet this goal first.jimp

@jimp,
The Pharisees hated Jesus because He did not submit to their traditions which made God's Word of no effect in the peoples' lives. He was constantly challenging their ways of doing things. He was viewed as a rebel who rejected the religious "authority" of His day, and ultimately He was crucified because of that, from man's viewpoint.

There are many Christians who are beginning to the see the hinderance of the traditions of men with their so called religious authority over God's people. They are seeing the hinderance of having a "one man show" every Sunday and submitting to "lords" in the place of Christ. They are seeing the crippling effect which that has had on the Body and Bride of Christ.

And they, like their Master, are beginning to "rebel" and reject unbiblical traditions and authority. Many of us are not just "rebels" for the sake of being rebels. We truly mourn and grieve and cry out to the Lord for deliverance from the hindering ways of man. We want to see a glorious Bride. We want to see the purity and power which the first century church clearly had.

And we know that that will not be seen until we are set free from the false ways of man which bind us up and hinder us from obeying Christ in all things. And the "all things" includes rethinking many of our traditions and church practices which are nowhere to be found within the pages of the New Testament. These "traditions" and church practices really are a huge hinderance brother, and I hope and pray you will one day realize that. Blessings,
Oracio

Jimp, calling for a return to the Biblical pattern of leadership doesn't mean people are advocating that the church is to be a place where it's sort of every man for himself, and nobody submits to anybody.

There is to be true authority in the church. The early apostles had authority. Great authority. Paul warned the Corinthians he had the ability to come to them with a rod if necessary. John warned the same kind of thing.

But men in whom God has vested this kind of authority must recognize at a very deep level that the sheep of God's pasture are just exactly that: they are HIS heritage, they are HIS flock, and not their own.

I once heard a wise man say that David the king was the shepherd of Israel because he taught the people to say, "The LORD is my shepherd."

Of course there is submission in the body of Christ. But THAT is what a genuine shepherd does, and teaches. He teaches the people to submit to their God. He teaches them to come to know His Voice for themselves, and obey Him.

More or less, as they say, his job is to work himself out of a job.

ADisciple, good points. One question I've pondered is, "Do pastors/elders have the same level of authority which the Apostles had? In other words, is that kind of Apostolic authority given to any leaders today, or was that kind of spiritual authority only for the first century at the founding of the Church? Its clear that the elder/pastors of the first century were under the guidance of the Apostles and had less spiritual authority than them.

Another good question is, are there apostles today? I believe there are apostles with a lower case "a", which are the pioneering missionaries or church planters of today. And again, the question I ponder is, do these "apostles" have the same level of spiritual authority which the Apostles had? Paul says that he showed the Corinthians the "signs" of an Apostle, meaning signs and wonders and powerful Apostolic preaching of the gospel. But where do we see that today? Not in America for sure.

Even if there is a certain level of spiritual authority given today to certain leaders, it is clear that it is to be displayed vastly different than what we see in mainline Christianity. The Apostles planted churches and taught "all" the believers how to function without their presence on a regular basis. They encouaged much mutual submission and participation by all, which is not seen in mainline Chistianity today.

They did not teach or encourage the elders/pastors to lord over the flock of God, or take over and make all the decisions in the churches, leaving out the rest of the members. There was much "consensual" decision making encouraged, and the New Testament is filled with that kind of example. This is also clearly seen in the fact that the vast majority of the epistles to the churches do not even mention the elders/pastors.

My point is that the New Testament model of spiritual authority looks almost like nothing we see today in mainline churches.

p.s. I did not take the time to look up all the biblical references for my points due to lack of time at the moment, but I would be glad to share those references at a later time if you ask.

Oracio, also good post.

One question I've pondered is, "Do pastors/elders have the same level of authority which the Apostles had? In other words, is that kind of Apostolic authority given to any leaders today, or was that kind of spiritual authority only for the first century at the founding of the Church? Its clear that the elder/pastors of the first century were under the guidance of the Apostles and had less spiritual authority than them.

No, I wouldn't say pastors/elders have the same measure of authority the Apostles had. I don't think they had the same measure of authority the apostles had in the early church, and obviously they don't today either.

As to that kind of authority being limited to the time of the founding of the church... I'm not prepared to confine it to that time. Certainly we don't see it in our day, but we don't know what is yet around the corner, and what God may yet do-- or need to do-- in order to bring the church to the fulness He intends.

Another good question is, are there apostles today? I believe there are apostles with a lower case "a", which are the pioneering missionaries or church planters of today. And again, the question I ponder is, do these "apostles" have the same level of spiritual authority which the Apostles had? Paul says that he showed the Corinthians the "signs" of an Apostle, meaning signs and wonders and powerful Apostolic preaching of the gospel. But where do we see that today? Not in America for sure.

I agree that there are apostles today, but I don't limit them to just "pioneering missionaries or church planters." If your average missionary and church planter is an apostle, well, not to disparage that, but it's not what comes to mind when I think of the word "apostle." I believe, actually, that there are apostles who lay foundations of truth in the church, truths that have been lost over the centuries, but which God has promised He will raise up in the last day (Jn. 6.39).

And I believe we will see more of these. Those who teach there are no more apostles after the first 12 are mistaken, of course. For Paul in Ephesians says it is the ascended Christ-- the ascended Christ-- who gives the gifts of men to the church: apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers (Eph. 4.11). And so before His ascension Christ chose 12 to be apostles. But also AFTER His ascension: "...When He ascended on High, He led captivity captive and gave gifts unto men." And He gave to the church "apostles, prophets, etc."

And the apostle Paul himself was an example of one of these.

We may expect, then, that as He sees the need according to His purposes, the Lord Jesus Christ will give these men.

As to their having the same authority as the early Apostles, once again, I would not be prepared to say unequivocally, No. Who are we to judge what God might yet do?

Even if there is a certain level of spiritual authority given today to certain leaders, it is clear that it is to be displayed vastly different than what we see in mainline Christianity. The Apostles planted churches and taught "all" the believers how to function without their presence on a regular basis. They encouaged much mutual submission and participation by all, which is not seen in mainline Chistianity today.

I agree. And I'm encouraged to see that more and more people are recognizing the order that Paul laid out in Ephesians, which is that the ascended Christ gives these ministries unto the church to equip the church unto THEIR work of ministry (Eph. 4.11-13). It is the body of Christ-- each and every member functioning vitally-- that is to bring the body of Christ "unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ."

There's that beautiful little word "till" in that passage: that God gives these ministries to equip the church "TILL we all come unto the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God unto a perfect Man..."

In other words, there comes a time when the Glory of God fills the House of God, and the priests are no longer able to stand to minister: their work is accomplished. And the true ministers are filled with joy when that happens.

They did not teach or encourage the elders/pastors to lord over the flock of God, or take over and make all the decisions in the churches, leaving out the rest of the members. There was much "consensual" decision making encouraged, and the New Testament is filled with that kind of example.

Yes, I agree fully.

My point is that the New Testament model of spiritual authority looks almost like nothing we see today in mainline churches.

Yes, it's an evil thing and bitter that His fear is not in us, as Jeremiah said. And that's why the churches generally speaking are so weak.

But we have the encouraging hope that if we will turn to our Lord again, He will return to us and His authority will be manifested in and through us again.

So, these are awesome days.

I agree that there are apostles today, but I don't limit them to just "pioneering missionaries or church planters." If your average missionary and church planter is an apostle, well, not to disparage that, but it's not what comes to mind when I think of the word "apostle." I believe, actually, that there are apostles who lay foundations of truth in the church, truths that have been lost over the centuries, but which God has promised He will raise up in the last day (Jn. 6.39).

Yes, I agree that the average "missionary" or "church planter" would probably not fit the decription of an apostle. But I do believe that some of the pioneering missionaries of the past, such as David Brainerd, Hudson Taylor and C.T. Studd have fit that description. These are men that forsake and risk all for the cause of Christ.

I also agree that apostles do not necessarily have to be missionaries or church planters, but ones whom God uses to bring back certain lost vital truths. I believe some of these "apostles" are men whom God has used to awaken us throughout history and whom we did not realize were actually apostles; men like the reformers, the puritan non-comformists, men like George Whitefield, John Wesley, William Booth, Leonard Ravenhill, etc.

Oracio, you write:
"Do pastors/elders have the same level of authority which the Apostles had?"

I do agree with you and Adisciple with the answer to this question. But we must agree that Paul especially was chosen as the apostle to the Gentiles and had and mission and authority from Christ which was unique. He was also along with the other writers inspired by the Holy Spirit to write the precious word of God which we have now.

I would like to raise one point however; does not the bible specifically distinguish between pastors and elders? (as in you question)

Pastors are include in the Ephesian list of gifts of men (as adisciple says)
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; Eph 4:11 (KJV)

These are men given by Christ in love to his church and they are wholly answerable to Christ, not to any man, for the exercising of their gifts. These gifts as well as those mentioned in 1 Cor 12. are for the edification of the body of Christ. Not necessarily just at a local church, but for the whole body of Christ (that is the context of the Ephesian and 1 Cor passages) world wide, wherever God choses to use them.

Elders and leaders as I said in my post yesterday were appointed by Paul or in some cases he delegated this authority to another - Titus. They were appointed as elders of a local church, unlike pastors. My question is still that if there are no apostles now (or none known), how can elders be appointed in our churches today?

David

Hi David, I'll make a comment while you're waiting for Oratio to respond.

My question is still that if there are no apostles now (or none known), how can elders be appointed in our churches today?

I think you answered this yourself very well in your earlier post. I think that the saints "know those who labour among them," and can come to a consensus as to who are the elders.

I would like to raise one point however; does not the bible specifically distinguish between pastors and elders? (as in you question)

I'm not sure that it does. I agree with you that the ministries the Lord sets in the church are intended for more than just the one local assembly in which they might be located. But I also think these ministries would also likely be (although perhaps not always) elders in that local assembly.

I recall Ron Bailey on a thread a while ago drawing attention to the passage in Acts 20 where Paul is speaking to the elders of Ephesus.

And I will quote it from my Interlinear: "Take heed therefore to yourselves, and to all the flock wherein the Holy Spirit did set you overseers, to shepherd the assembly of God which He purchased with His own blood" (Acts 20.28).

We see here that the elders are exhorted to shepherd, that is, to pastor, the flock of God... So the elders were shepherds, pastors. And at the same time, they were, as shepherds would be, watching over their flocks. So these elders were also overseers, the word usually translated "bishops."

The apostle Peter also called himself an elder in 1 Pt. 5.1. But perhaps here there is a sense in which he, as an apostle, was an elder not over just one local church-- I am treading on dangerous ground here-- but over many churches. But in the same breath, the word here is "fellowelders." In other words, one among many: he did not consider himself to be the chief elder.

The apostle John also called himself an elder. "The elder unto the elect lady..." (2 Jn. 1).

Thanks adisciple for your full reply, very clear.

David

davidc, ADisciple gave the answers I would have given had I been online to see your questions. Thanks for covering for me ADisciple;)

pilgrim777 you make some convicting statements about advertising. But would you not agree that the Lord has used men who did some advertising in mighty ways to awaken His Church to vital truths that were almost lost? One brother who comes to mind is Ray Comfort. The Lord has clearly used him to bring back the biblical gospel that brings conviction of sin and true repentance. And he has done quite a bit of advertising on TV with his program. Is it really sinful to go on the airwaves like that to get the message across?

Also, with regard to Apostles, does not Scripture make it clear that there were certain criteria that had to be met to qualify, such as seeing the risen Lord? That's why I do not believe there are Apostles with a capital A today. But Scripture does seem to make it clear that there were other apostles with a lower case a in the first century, such as Barnabas and Silas.

I tell - it just as i see it! I dont get into the semantics of words and debating of (exact) definitions of words. However that said: Jots and tittles of the law though must never be compromised. I try not to answer people back or some critic ... or put energy into personal debates. I just dont see the point of it! For If what was written is sound and Bible it doesnt need to be defended! especially by me! personally i dont believe in debating the bible or the arguning of the scriptures per se. ( i have well documented this in the past) What (people do or dont do) with the word i submit is considered by me ... up to them (to judge) If therefore i lose "respect" and "honour" from you because of this...that is your call - my friend. You are under absolutely no obligation to read anything i say or write. Therefore If my lack of particapation offends you or gives rise to point of stuumbling. That is what i consider to be your problem (and not mine ) do pastors and preachers stand around after a service defending and debating with the congregation - what they just delivered? there might be some isolated incidences ...granted. But for the most part. like pilate said " what i have written - i have written " and he didnt succumb to mob pressure or group conformity on the day to change his wtitten words! From what ive observed few (if any) have the guts to confront a pastor face to face if they didnt appreciate or agree with what was said. Neither do i see them standing around to debate the pros and cons ...of that which he just delivered. On the internet you can say what you want and Not have to look the same person in the face. The other thing you should know is my wife is presently in hospital recovering from surgery. My time is limited in betwen visitations to hospital. So i would say to you "judge not after the appearance" or "after the flesh" You dont know all the reasons or circumstances that are often going on in a persons individual life. You could be judging harshly without knowing all the facts or knowledge of reasons why. We need to Be careful.. about this

Scripture cautions and warns against despising someone else that is a brother and also believes in Christ - just because we dont Do things the way we believe they ought too

got it pilgrim. Also, I edited my last post and added something on "Apostles".

sonofthunder, if you notice in my post addressed to you, I did not state anything as a matter of fact about you for your lack of engagement. I was simply asking because it seemed a little odd that you did not reply at all in the last thread you posted. But either way I deeply apologize for even asking or almost assuming something that was not true about you. And my condolences go out to you in your situation with your wife. I will pray for you both.
In His grace,
Oracio