Why Doctrine Matters

Why Doctrine Matters

by

Jimmy Humphrey

So it came about in the morning that, behold, it was Leah! And he said to Laban, “What is this you have done to me? Was it not for Rachel that I served with you? Why then have you deceived me?” (Genesis 29:25; NASB)

There are some people in Evangelical circles today who are so spiritual that they’ve declared, doctrine doesn’t really matter. All that matters to them is having a personal relationship with Jesus. Whether a doctrine is true or not doesn’t really matter to these brethren. All that matters is knowing Jesus. Such is the spirit of our age.

But if I could, I would just like to make a little observation from a story in the life of Jacob. Jacob, if you recall, was madly in love with a girl named Rachel. He agreed to serve Laban, Rachel’s father, for seven years, if only at the end of those seven years he could take Rachel to be his wife. Well, seven years of service came and went, and Jacob took Rachel to be his wife. But when Jacob woke up the next morning, he discovered the woman he was with was not the woman whom he had served Laban for. Instead, it was another woman altogether, Leah. Jacob had been married to the wrong woman.

What is one thing we can learn from this little story? At the end of the day, the truth really does matter. Indeed, if your personal relationship with the Lord is not grounded in the truth, like Jacob, one day when you wake up, you may discover that after all your years of service, that you were married to the wrong person altogether.

http://christthinks.com/2010/11/13/why-doctrine-matters/

Then, there are those who when they first meet you, subject you to their "spiritual interview". Instead of getting to know you, they "check you out" to make sure all your beliefs line up with theirs so they can determine if you are worthy of their fellowship. I always seem to flunk those interviews.

I knew someone like that, and most people found him to be quite annoying

hi, if you had to agree with all the doctrine i have in my heart;you certainly would not fellowship with me.i try to use wisdom around the bible school students so they will not leave or have me thrown out.i will not argue over any doctrine save for Jesus and Him crucified and if you beleive in the message of the cross then we can fellowship.jimp

yes and let's see the living waters of The Christ!

We should remember it was Laban that deceived Jacob. The parallel NT scripture for this I suppose could be 1 Thessalonians 2:11, if we keep the whole in context with Jimmy's exegetical illustration. I do like what Jimmy is putting forth here.

I would remind readers however that the Holy Spirit always leads God's handmaidens to Christ in all sobriety and is not a tricky Laban. Doctrine does matter (II Tim. 3:16; I Tim. 4:6, 16), though in the end, it is Christ who saves and not correct doctrine. One can have correct doctrine and be spiritually dead, as we often see. In fact, men who had the straightest doctrine of all were the very ones who handed Jesus Christ over to Pilate.

If a person has the Spirit of Christ, God Himself will take care of all the doctrinal details eventually and internally. Many believers who have had a genuine new birth are yet in imperfect doctrine, but God is slowly working on them, bringing them unto perfection, smoothing out the rough edges, and forming within them the divine nature of His Son with much patience and love.

Fortuantely, the story didn't stop with Leah; Jacob labored some more and eventually married the apple of his eye, Rachel. But amazingly it was through Judah (Jacob and Leah's 4th son) in which God chose to manifest Himself to the world, and not through a son of Rachel. His ways are not ours dear brethen. If a man walk honestly and humbly before God, even though his doctrine be not totally sound, the Spirit of Christ can still manifest unto the blessing of generations.

I am not advocating here, in case there is any misunderstanding, cold and dead orthodoxy, or absolute perfection in doctrine. The purpose of this exhortation is simply to say what I said, that doctrine does matter, and we should pursue it. One need not have perfect doctrine to follow Christ and be soundly saved, nor do we have to agree on all points of doctrine to have real Biblical fellowship with one another.

But, soundly saved people who have a real relationship with the Lord also have sound doctrine. Sound doctrine and a personal relationship with the Lord DO go hand in hand. The true worshipers of God must worship in spirit and in truth. Our relationship with the Lord is something that is ultimately grounded in actual and factual doctrinal truth.

Amen, well said.

I am reminded of something William Gurnall wrote in commenting on the verse, "Having your loins girt about with truth" (Eph. 6:14).

[Truth of Doctrine as a Girdle for the Mind.]

We shall begin with truth of doctrine, or truth of the word, called ‘the word of truth,’ Eph. 1:13, because it is the word of God, who is God of truth. It behoves every Christian to be well girt with this truth. ‘Resist the devil,’ saith Peter, ‘steadfast in the faith,’ I Peter 5:9; that is, in the truth—faith being there put for the object of our faith, which is the truth of God, declared in the doctrine of the gospel. This is ‘the faith which was once delivered to the saints,’ Jude 3; that is, the truth delivered to them to be believed and held fast. And of what importance it is to be thus steadfast in the faith, the apostle Peter, in the following verse of the fore-mentioned place, shows, by his vehement and earnest praying for them, that God would ‘stablish, strengthen, and settle them.’ The heaping of words to the same purpose, implies the great danger they were in of being unsettled by Satan and his instruments, and the necessity of their standing firm and unshaken in the faith. Nothing is more frequently inculcated than this in the Epistles; and the more, because in those blustering times it was impossible to have kept the faith from being blown from them, without this girdle to hold it fast. Now, as there is a double design Satan hath to rob Christians of truth, so there is a twofold girding about with this truth necessary. first, Satan comes as a serpent in the persons of false teachers, and by them labours to put a cheat on us, and cozen[1] us with error for truth. To defend us against this design, it is necessary we be girt with truth in our understanding—that we have an established judgement in the truths of Christ. second, Satan comes sometimes as a lion in the persons of bloody persecutors, and labours to scare Christians from the truth with fire and faggot. Now to defend us against this, we need to have truth girt about us, so that with a holy resolution we may maintain our profession in the face of death and danger.

I believe in the 'doctrine' that the Bible speaks of: the doctrine of Christ:

2 Jo 1:9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the teaching of Christ does not have God. He who abides in his doctrine has both the Father and the Son.
2 Jo 1:10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not welcome him to your house, neither bid him to eat...

But sadly, religious sects of the church have hijacked that doctrine (edit: like the above verses) and made it into the "Baptist" doctrine, the "Church of God" doctrine, the "Catholic" doctrine, the "Church of God in Prophecy" doctrine, etc.

It's so sad that the majority of Christians don't know the doctrine of Christ!

God bless,
Lisa

This topic hits home to me in a number of ways. I came out of believing in the word of faith, prosperity doctrines of demons. I was a born again believer who was being deceived it was hindering my walk to say the least. I am so thankful for men like Hank Hanagraff and John MacArthur who passionately spoke out against that deception and exposed it for what it was. The Lord used these men to open my eyes and set me free through His truth in His Word.

On the flip side, I am grieved when I see Christians breaking fellowship over non-essentials. If we believe in the essentials there is no reason why we should not be able to fellowship as brethren from the same family of God in Christ.

I agree with Jimmy that doctrine is important. The NT is filled with admonishions to know correct doctrine. It is good to discuss and let iron sharpen iron. The key is knowing what is essential, and discussing in the right spirit of Christian love.

Amen.

I have several things in my heart on this issue, but I am not sure if I can articulate. I will try.

There seems to be, in the body, two or three different views of doctrine. One is that it is a divisive thing because so many different schisms in the body have different doctrines about which they disagree. So the solution to this problem is to center up on a singular doctrine (We are in sin, God loves us and Jesus died to forgive us and save us from wrath, and we can be born again) and soft petal all other doctrines. Who was it that said, "in essentials unity, in non-essentials liberty, and in all things love" or something to that effect? But I am not convinced this is a Biblically sound way to look at it.

Another is that doctrine is dead, dry orthodoxy (much like the letter of the law), and that fellowship with God through the Spirit is the ultimate end so why worry about what anyone believes. I am convinced this is absolutely not Biblical.

The third is that my denomination's or my personal interpretation is absolutely correct doctrine and all others are wrong. That doctrine is of absolute importance, but of course it is my interpretation that is correct. This too is not correct.

Doctrine simply means "What the Bible teaches." This of course requires us to search scripture, to study to show ourselves approve, so that we might rightly divide the word. There are always obstacles to this process.

One obstacle is our tendency to revere man and to latch onto his teachings, especially when we are not Bereans and when we simply look at that man's proof texts and say something like, "Wow, that makes great sense to me. I think that is what I believe now." Human teachers are ordained of God to teach and to bring us into maturity, but they are human and can get it wrong is some areas. Praise God for His grace. But all denominational division in the body, in my opinion, can ultimately be traced back to people revering or highly respecting a teacher and espousing his take on things exclusively because of this respect or reverence.

Another obstacle is our tendency to lean on our own understanding where doctrinal interpretation is concerned. We look at scripture "academically" and come up with all sorts of systematic theological analysis of scripture by analyzing language, tenses, terms, phrases, etc. in a purely academic way. I am not minimizing scholarly study. God gave us mental capacity for a reason after all. What I am saying is that academic study apart from revelation by the Holy Spirit is to lean on purely fleshly means to rightly divide spirit and life. It will always fall short and lead to error. ALWAYS!

Doctrine is important and we must rightly divide the word of truth. Doctrine is not dead. If doctrine is what the Bible teaches and if the word of God is quick and powerful and spirit and life, then doctrine is a living thing ordained of the Spirit of God. But doctrine must be understood on our knees in communion with the Holy Spirit. Correct interpretation has its source in the Holy Spirit, not in our own intellect. I truly believe if we prayerfully study the Word of God and in doing so place ALL of our denominational bias on the shelf, we will ultimately come into a wonderful unity of doctrine. Is this not what Paul admonishes in 1 Cor. 1-3. I want you to be of the same mind and all speak the same thing... Isn't it interesting that one of the most powerful chapters dealing with the activity of the Holy Spirit in giving us the mind of Christ is 1 Cor. 2? But this unity requires much prayer, much humility, and much realization that I can be and probably am in some areas wrong in my doctrine.

Oh that we would be teachable and that God would be given the latitude to radically change our minds about some things. Remember Luther? God radically changed his mind about salvation by grace. Remember the consequences he bore? He was not exactly a popular guy with the old establishment. Some of us, if God radically altered some of our doctrine, would suddenly be unwelcome in the places we have always fit in. So be it if it is the true doctrine of the word of God we are following. But the price for some may seem great. Others may only require an adjustment here or there. But isn't the goal to be conformed to Him in all things?

Why do we bicker and argue and back bite, when it is plain what scripture states. "As for me and my house", is not all that Christ is to the believer and the Body of Christ His Church fulfilled in these few words, "Christ in you the hope of glory". Why do we miss the mark?

Is this not a fulfillment of all the doctrine in the Bible?

Colossians 1:12-29 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

In Christ: Phillip

twayneb wrote:
Doctrine is important and we must rightly divide the word of truth. Doctrine is not dead. If doctrine is what the Bible teaches and if the word of God is quick and powerful and spirit and life, then doctrine is a living thing ordained of the Spirit of God. But doctrine must be understood on our knees in communion with the Holy Spirit. Correct interpretation has its source in the Holy Spirit, not in our own intellect. I truly believe if we prayerfully study the Word of God and in doing so place ALL of our denominational bias on the shelf, we will ultimately come into a wonderful unity of doctrine. Is this not what Paul admonishes in 1 Cor. 1-3. I want you to be of the same mind and all speak the same thing... Isn't it interesting that one of the most powerful chapters dealing with the activity of the Holy Spirit in giving us the mind of Christ is 1 Cor. 2? But this unity requires much prayer, much humility, and much realization that I can be and probably am in some areas wrong in my doctrine.

God bless you,
Lisa

Paul West...

One can have correct doctrine and be spiritually dead, as we often see. In fact, men who had the straightest doctrine of all were the very ones who handed Jesus Christ over to Pilate.

This comment puzzled me. Did the men who killed Christ have the 'straightest doctrine of all'?

They disputed Christ's deity. They denied their sin. They saw no need for a Saviour. They were full of pride. They did not humble themselves before God. They did not love one another. They had the Sabbath backwards. They trusted in the law and despised grace.

I think the point to be made is that we are in trouble if we do not understand sound doctrine.

I once asked a brother what was more important, practice or doctrine, to which he responded 'practice'. I asked him what he would say to the man he met that passed out tracts tirelessly calling people to Christ, a man that saw no need to talk of atonement because he believed that rather our believing is what saves us and not Christ's sacrifice on the cross. Would his practice trump doctrine?

The church simply needs sound doctrine. We can take it for granted as long as it is present. But what will happen when it's not?

I agree that the Pharisees knew much about the law, but I think we all see that they did not have sound doctrine, thus their great sin.

I agree that the Pharisees knew much about the law, but I think we all see that they did not have sound doctrine, thus their great sin.

Dear brother their great sin was hardening their hearts in unbelief and rejecting Christ. Its true they rejected the teachings of Jesus but their damnation is because they refused to believe the Son of God and rather chose to live in self-righteouness and hypocrisy.

Sound doctrine is very important but as a means to pointing to Christ and revealing the whole counsel of God. It is the Word of God that saves us not right thinking about God. It is the truth that sets us free from the lies and bondage of the evil One. We need sound doctrine and the teachings of the Lord and the apostles about the truth that sets us free. The aim of doctrine is Christ not right thinking about God.

Paul said to corinthians that knowledge puffs up but love builds up, did he mean that we should disregard sound teaching and follow only after love, adsolutely not. Paul said in 1Corinthians 12 - 'If i have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if i have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have no LOVE i am nothing.'

If i have all knowledge but have not the love of God shed abroad in my heart i am nothing. Knowing about God and knowing God are completly two different things. We can consent with our intellect to all the truths and doctrines of the Bible and still be rejecting in unbelief the Lord Jesus Christ. True theology comes from the heart not mind. God by his Spirit inlightens our minds and opens the eyes of our understanding but it is thru a regenarated and sanctified spirit that we are aware of God and of the presence of his Spirit in our hearts.

I hope i dont sound like im emphasizing one truth to the neglect of another, because that leads to heresy. We need to believe the whole counsel of God so that we will not be fooled by the devil and fall victime of his deception. We need right thinking of God and right relationship with God. Paul said to Timothy, ' For the time is coming where people will not endure sound teaching but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wonder off into myths.' This warning is true in Pauls time but its also a prophetic utterance about end time deception.

Think about how much the gosple has been watered down, even substituted with another gosple that is man-centered and not God-centered. How many preach to their own destruction the word of God for their own selfish ambition or gain. Where do we hear so much nowdays about true discipleship or taking up the cross and following Him, we love cheap grace that requires no obedience to God, we want to go to heaven but no holiness, we want just believe but nothing to do with works of faith, we wants a false security about salvation but no perseverance in the grace of God.

How could they? There were only two persons that had any light at that time, Jesus and John the Baptist. After John died, it was Jesus, even His disciples didn't believe in Him, they were wayward in their minds concerning Him.

You might want to go back and reread the confessions of Mary, Elizabeth, Zacharias, Anna, Simeon, Peter etc to realize your statement is incorrect. There were those that understood the OT and saw Jesus as the Christ. Because the disciples misunderstood the two advents as not being seperate does not mean they didn't know he was the Christ. Many other than John understood this.

If you believe the Pharisees were perfect in their doctrine, we can agree to disagree.

It just seems odd that in order to defend the idea that doctrine doesn't matter we have to prop up the Pharisees. Let's agree that those that are man-centred and love to exalt man's effort opposed to the cross, don't neccessarily have sound doctrine cased. Quite the contrary.

Did the men who killed Christ have the 'straightest doctrine of all'?

Consider their attitude towards Christ. The reason they were against Jesus was understandable, when you take into account they had no concept of God's grace of the New Covenant. All they had was the written doctrine of Moses. Think of it: Along comes a prophet named Jesus of Nazareth who obviously violates the sabbath, by telling a man to take up his bed, when during Moses' time a man was put to death for picking up mere sticks. This, dear brethren, is the cold-blooded reality of what sound doctrine can do when not vivified by the grace of the Holy Spirit. And this is why so many believers (even on this forum)with "sound doctrine" gnash their teeth and throw rocks at other believers who are not just like them. They see another believer picking up a bed, and out comes their Bibles and proof-texts and stones of criticism.

The church simply needs sound doctrine.

Even more so, the church needs to know Jesus Christ. A man needs to born-again from above and filled with the Holy Spirit. Sound doctrine without Holy Spirit regeneration is a one-way street to phariseeism. And the sounder the doctrine, the greater the pharisee. There are myriads of websites and forums that promote sound doctrine; I would agree with 95% with much of what they promote. They quote scripture prolifically, extoll the sermons of Wesley and Spurgeon; reference the Puritans, et cetera. But when these same doctrinally-sound Christians speak, the words coming out are lifeless, critical, judgmental. This is because the unregenerate letter kills, just like the Sannhedrin. The spirit, on the other hand, giveth life, even if sound doctrine is not present.

The letter of sound doctrine kills, but the spirit giveth life, even when sound doctrine is not present.

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

I don't think anyone disputed regeneration being needed. Apart from God's life we are dead. Doctrine is only sound when it is understood and rightly divided.

That is why I disagreed that the Pharisees were perfect in doctrine. They didn't understand because they didn't want to. When Jesus came teaching truth and sound doctrine they tried to kill him. That's not sound doctrine. And as Paul conceded , what he did as a Pharisee he did in ignorance, not sound doctrine. Being perfect in the law was to be outwardly blameless, not perfect in doctrine and understanding of the Lord.

"Your doctrine can be as straight as a gun barrel—and just as empty!"

"You can have all of your doctrines right—yet still not have the presence of God."

"A man may study because his brain is hungry for knowledge, even Bible knowledge. But he prays because his soul is hungry for God."
Leonard Ravenhill

”The devil is a better theologian than any of us and is a devil still.”
A.W. Tozer

”A man may be theologically knowing and spiritually ignorant.”
Stephen Charnock

Does doctrine include 'love your neighbour' as well as 'humble yourselves'? Does it include 'Love God with all your heart' or only non relational, non spiritual, non heart matters?

I always find this argument funny on the 'doctrine' forum.

It should read, 'non doctrine' forum maybe.

And why is it that when someone takes a stand for sound doctrine in the church, there is an immediate rebuke from those who apparently have more of God's presence and Spirit? Makes one wonder of Spurgeon's conditon.

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Does this passage matter?

Do spirituality and sound doctrine not go hand in hand?

I take sound doctrine to be the word of God ie the bible. So on that basis, I believe that sound doctrine is not only important to understand but also to put into pratice. :))

There is a lot of wisdom in this thread and both sides of the fence can learn well from one another.

There are a number of categories of just "New Testament," "Doctrine."

The reason there is so much debate and carnality when it comes to doctrine is because many brothers are "Attitudinal Heretics." They do not apply the virtues of Christ during their discussion over doctrine.

They are not patient
They are not kind
They are not forbearing with love
They are not considering others better than themselves
They are not meek
They are not being salty
They are not being peacemakers

For some reason when "Doctrine" (I think most people really mean technical theological-in-nature truth...aka concepts like atonement, propitiation, sanctification and others. I suspect most people would never really debate over clear and concise commands we are to obey like they argue over more abstract concepts in scripture) is on the line, we feel justified for some reason in throwing out all of our Christian attitudinal virtues for the sake of vociferously defending against what we perceive to be a threat. This is like thinking that two wrongs make a right.

Jimmy is absolutely right, doctrine matters...
Paul West is absolutely right, don't make "doctrine," your idol. Satisfaction and contentment with paradox is a christian virtue. If you do not think so, go spend a few hours meditating on just Philippians 2:12-13 for a couple of hours.

By the way Paul, I loved your comment about people picking up their beds and walking. That was spot on. And Jimmy, that was a funny analogy.

Here Paul states, "this is the fulfillment of the Word (doctrine) of God."

Colossians 1:23-29 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Not only the doctrine but the fulfillment of the mystery hidden from all in ages past, which was revealed to Paul by the Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ Himself, which for three years Paul learned this mystery, which is, "Christ in you the Hope of Glory." This is the greatest Doctrine in all of Scripture.

Another Person in the believer, whom He is our all in all and, "in Whom we live and move and have our being".

The birthing, "Christ in you the Hope of Glory", this is the total of all that God prepared for the believers before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:3-14 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of His glory.

All of salvation in One Person, That is Christ in you the hope of glory.

Unto the praise of His Glory; In Christ: Phillip

Thank you Phillip for bringing us back to Christ again. How much better to speak of Him and His wonderful grace to us. It builds us all up and draws us to Him the fountain of living waters.

You are right that the doctine of Christ in us as set out in the Colossian letter is truly one of the greatest of doctrines. But to me, it's twin brother, for us to grasp by faith is seen in the passage you quoted from the Ephesian letter, which is "us in Christ". Both are baffling to the fleshly mind, but both are understood by the spiritual mind, the mind of Christ. They are the answer to Jesus' prayer in John 17.

"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me." John 17:20-23 (KJV)

David

Your right David; You cannot have a sock in the water without the water being in the sock.

In Christ and Him in us: Phillip

Thanks for the post.
Hi guys, Im a newbie. Nice to join this forum.

__________________
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You're very welcome tracyk859

from

DavidC and brothers and sisters in Christ

hi, a better question is do we know the God of the Word.jimp

Hello all...

I don't think that anyone would ever argue that doctrine doesn't matter. Well, then again, perhaps some of the most radical of the "emergent church" advocates might.

However, I agree with what some of the others are saying. Most believers will rally behind the idea that "doctrine matters." Yet it is the definition and connotation of "doctrine" that is often up to dispute.

There are individuals who assume that "doctrine" means "truths." Again, no one would argue that "truths" do not matter. However, I think that believers are much too quick to label something a "doctrinal truth" that they feel is "essential" or even "almost essential" to the faith.

For instance, there is a long list of doctrinal "truths" that believers adhere to. In many congregations, strict adherence or alignment with a specific set of "doctrinal truths" is required for the full hand of fellowship to be extended. Yet that particular list of "doctrinal truths" is comprised of all sorts of things that shouldn't be considered "truth."

You see, I think that we are too easily/quickly persuaded that something is "truth" and then much too quick to proclaim that something as "truth." By proclaiming such things from pulpits or "WE BELIEVE" lists (and requiring adherence to it), I think that we might be guilty of putting words in God's mouth (so to speak).

Churches and pastors often proclaim very specific ideas about what they think is "truth." We could make a very long list about everything from eschatology, music, specific standards of "modesty," Bible translations, tithing, etc... -- and some people will proclaim one view as "doctrinal truth" while others will proclaim the opposite view as "doctrinal truth." There are even congregations where the pastors and teachers will go to great lengths to proclaim their interpretations of such things as "doctrinal truths" in the effort to persuade (or even mandate) such views within the local church or denomination.

In this sense, such congregations become "indoctrination centers" rather than allowing God to speak to the heart of the believer. Of course, God does give us teachers. However, should something be taught as an "undeniable truth" that is merely a particular persuasion about a matter? Again, I think that this can create a danger of putting words into God's mouth -- and literally bear false witness against the Word of God. I sometimes feel concern that some believers are making a new "Law" with a particular set of doctrinal opinions that they feel should be presented as "truth."

I am always reminded about the Council in Jerusalem. The early Church obviously had a set of norms when it came to the "doctrine of the Church." However, in Acts 15, questions arose about specific requirements for believers. Some felt that all believers should be circumcised and required to adhere to the Law of Moses.

The Apostles met with Paul and Barnabas about this question. Peter pointed out that the Law was a yoke that Jews weren't able to fully bear and cautioned that we are now under "grace" and not a specific set of requirements in the Law. James concurred. He concluded that the Gospel should not make it difficult for those who are turning to God (Acts 15:19). They eventually wrote a short letter -- the first recorded "epistle" -- that simply told believers in Christ that they should abstain from sexual immorality and avoid particular pagan practices (food sacrificed to idols and the widespread sacrificial blood-strangulation practices of pagan rituals...from Acts 15:23-29).

That letter didn't mention a lot of "doctrinal truths" that some people try to persuade others as being "foundational truths," "essential" or even "required" to be given the full hand of fellowship by the Church. There was no mention of tithing, music, eschatology, Scripture translation supremacy, or even specific ideas about modesty or predestination. There was no list of 20 questions for Church involvement.

Christianity was simple. It was not convoluted with the opinions of man presented as "doctrinal truth." You simply came to Christ with an honest heart. Now, this is NOT to say that doctrine doesn't matter. A true believer will seek God (through prayerful study of God's Word) for truth. There are quite a few "obvious" truths that are universally undeniable to true believers. However, there are several things that are not absolutely clear -- even if we think that they are in our own minds.

After all of the discussions, debates and downright arguments over certain "doctrinal truths" here at SermonIndex -- I think that it is obvious that some things are just not universal enough to proclaim as "truth" and set up as a requirement for all believers.

Instead, I think that we should certainly proclaim some things as "truth" that are obvious and essential. We can still teach other things too -- but salted with the understanding that these aren't exceedingly clear on this side of the "glass darkly" of Eternity. Yet I don't think that those things should be considered underlying requirements for all believers who wish to fellowship and serve with others in a congregation. For many such things, we need to distinguish between truth and opinion.