Andrew Strom Renounces the Prophetic Movement & the Recent Whitedove Conference in Kansas City ...

Andrew Strom Renounces the Prophetic Movement & the Recent Whitedove Conference in Kansas City ...http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~revival/leaving.html

Thank you, Bro. Rahman for posting this. I had not received this in my email yet. I, for one, am praising God about this seperation. There are many who are honestly hungering after God who need to break away from the 'prophetic movement' as it is known today. I experienced this personally about 3 years ago and wondered how long the mixing could go on.I pray that many will have their eyes and ears opened at this point to see the truth. Many will need to re- evalute where the line is drawn. I pray for discernment for everyone. may the Lord use this for His glory!!!In Him, Chanin

I'm just wondering where the so-called "prophetic movement" in its pop-culture form was ever of God? Why is Strom only now cutting himself off? I've never once been impressed by the likes of Bob Jones, Paul Cain, Mike Bickle, etc. I almost got seduced into the movement when I was only beginning to discover the gifts- thank you Lord for delivering me from such! I personally believe it's been counterfeit from the get-go, though I believe fully in the prophetic... but that which has commonly been identified as such has not been. I think a good reading of the posts suchs folks as larsw make bring a wonderful understanding to the prophetic, and makes it very difficult to believe the garbage that has come out of Kansas City and Colorado Springs has ever been from God.

I believe God is doing something apart from all of what is happening in the modern day prophetic charismatic movement. I think Strom is right on in alot of the things he is saying including the judgement of God. I am very interested to hear how God takes him now and what and who he preaches with etc.Me too. I wonder where this will all go. It takes me back again to Escape from Christendom- where the real revival was taking place in the desert- out away from any hype and away from Christian city. In Him, Chanin

All I can think of in these times is "keep looking to Jesus" and all the rest of this looks like trivia.Yes, for sure!! I think Strom seemed very grounded because of His fear of the Lord and his message of repentance. Praise God for this.You're right. I keep thinking to myself, where do you draw the line? I just keep reminding myself to just keep holding onto the hem of His robe and follow Him around. These days, it seems that almost no matter what camp you're in, there is some false teaching. Even at the church we have been attending, though it is biblically grounded and conservative, there are things I question. Luckily, I am staying in His camp :-) .In Him, Chanin

Also, it will be interesting to see who else breaks away from this too. I guess it will show the inside of many hearts.

Glad to hear this as well. Appreciated the things Andrew Strom brought up on repentance and his familiarity with revivals of the past.But I agree with the King on this:I'm just wondering where the so-called "prophetic movement" in its pop-culture form was ever of God? Why is Strom only now cutting himself off? I've never once been impressed by the likes of Bob Jones, Paul Cain, Mike Bickle, etc. I almost got seduced into the movement when I was only beginning to discover the gifts- thank you Lord for delivering me from such! I personally believe it's been counterfeit from the get-go, though I believe fully in the prophetic... but that which has commonly been identified as such has not been. I think a good reading of the posts suchs folks as larsw make bring a wonderful understanding to the prophetic,Reading that article should come with a warning:Don't read this if you have recently eaten...

What bothered me so much about this article is that it is all opinion based (as far as I can tell). And of course Strom has just as much a right to his opinion as anyone, though I don't know how justified he is in sharing it publically. But he is accountable to the Lord for that. Obviously Andrew had certain expectations going into the conference. He felt he had clearly heard from God. It seems he was hoping for the whole "old-fashioned" ("classic") repentence paradigm, and when that didn't happen then he was bothered. And he was bothered by the dancing and it's supposedly pagan feel. Though, once again, he only offers his opinions. And what else can he do, I don't think there exists any Scriptural support for his argument against the movement. They didn't repent in the right way in his opinion. They didn't dance "right". They didn't do the money thing "right". His arguments seem purely subjective. Where he clearly seems to be unjustified is where he makes absolute claims like, "instead of REPENTANCE, people are getting all kinds of counterfeit spiritual experiences." And how exactly does he know that for sure? No, I'm [not] concluding that Strom is for sure unjustified in this situation overall. But if I'm just going by that message he sent out, it sure seems likely. But like Greg pointed out:"All I can think of in these times is 'keep looking to Jesus' and all the rest of this looks like trivia."Same theory on the other side of the issue.

2Ti 3:1 But know this, that in the last days grievous times shall come. 2Ti 3:2 For men shall be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, haughty, railers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 2Ti 3:3 without natural affection, implacable, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, no lovers of good, 2Ti 3:4 traitors, headstrong, puffed up, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God; 2Ti 3:5 holding a form of godliness, but having denied the power therefore. From these also turn away. 2Ti 3:6 For of these are they that creep into houses, and take captive silly women laden with sins, led away by divers lusts, 2Ti 3:7 ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 2Ti 3:8 And even as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also withstand the truth. Men corrupted in mind, reprobate concerning the faith. 2Ti 3:9 But they shall proceed no further. For their folly shall be evident unto all men, as theirs also came to be. 2Pe 3:1 This is now, beloved, the second epistle that I write unto you; and in both of them I stir up your sincere mind by putting you in remembrance; 2Pe 3:2 that ye should remember the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and the commandments of the Lord and Saviour through your apostles: 2Pe 3:3 knowing this first, that in the last days mockers shall come with mockery, walking after their own lusts, 2Pe 3:4 and saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for, from the day that the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

Apply the most simplified and the most profound test of them all:Would the Lord have done the same thing as these prophets and evangelists do in the name of the Lord?If we applied this rule and plumb line in our ministries and meetings the Hinn’s and the Cain’s would be out of business before they even had acquired some sort of name. Or, perhaps they would have been corrected and made to be a blessing to the Church.Lars

I have felt for a while that there would be a prophetic movement emerging, one that will desire anonaminity, live uncompromising, rend heaven with their prayers, and lead multitudes to christ. They'll go by a name too....CHRISTIANS!! ;-)

What if this peculiar brand of humans has been around ever since Pentecost?I suspect that our hunt for something new, something other, is in vain. What we have been and are looking for has been in existence all the time.Some of us even belong to this strange group of sojourners.Some of us have our home within that realm, not making much noise but making vast difference in areas that count.Lars W.

Do you know this hymn? a little church in every houseO might my lot be cast with these,The least of Jesus’ witnesses!

What if this peculiar brand of humans has been around ever since Pentecost?I suspect that our hunt for something new, something other, is in vain.What we have been and are looking for has been in existence all the time.Exactly! Which is why I have ultimately rejected the prophetic movement because they keep claiming something is now being restored... which is simply not so. The prophetic has always existed. It's acceptance amongst men though, has not. Only of late did the populace begin to embrace that which has typically been shunned. Is perhaps God moving in our generation as He has not in the last 1000 yrs? Perhaps, and maybe he is raising up more prophets. But what He has not been doing is trying to get the ecclesiastical lords to embrace them so that they include them in their official polity. Rather, God only raises up prophets to establish Christ. Likewise with the apostolic, God is only concerned with establishing Christ. The wave of apostles and prophets that have come that I have seen thus far have only been interested in establishing themselves instead of Christ. That which is truly apostolic and prophetic is not concerned about establishing their own ministry, but only that of Christ. As Paul said, "We preach Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your bondservants"

I have felt for a while that there would be a prophetic movement emerging, one that will desire anonaminity, live uncompromising, rend heaven with their prayers, and lead multitudes to christ. They'll go by a name too....CHRISTIANS!!YES!!!!!!!!!!

QUOTE:"God only raises up prophets to establish Christ. Likewise with the apostolic, God is only concerned with establishing Christ.The wave of apostles and prophets that have come that I have seen thus far have only been interested in establishing themselves instead of Christ. That which is truly apostolic and prophetic is not concerned about establishing their own ministry, but only that of Christ. As Paul said, "We preach Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your bondservants" ...Amen King Jimmy ... it don't get any plainer than this.

Yea its pretty amazing brother Strom is doing this. He is going to get alot of flack from MANY people for saying and making this move to seperate completly from it, even when he goes back to New Zealand I wonder how many people he will seperate from there also.. there is alot of deeply entrenched prophetic, charismatic churches in those areas. All I can think of in these times is "keep looking to Jesus" and all the rest of this looks like trivia.I personally was going to go to this meeting to see what all the stir was about, but there was so many people there I could not get near the place. I am very ignorant of this movement, but what I do know is quite chilling. I hoped also they would REPENT! Thank God I did not get in! who knows how I would have reacted to such blatant madness and diabolical behavior.In my conversations with Andrew, he has always held out hope that the prophetic movement would get it together. That hope seems to have come to an absolute end. He did not just recently realize this, as we had talked at length of the sickness of the movement before this weekend. Sometimes God has to let a person see for themselves how messed up things really are.I spent a lot of time earlier in the year with Andrew and only sparingly of late. Honestly, I never felt comfortable with that movement at all. I refused to be numbered among them. For what ever reason, Andrew held out hope for them. Most most recent conversations with him made this announcement no surprise to me at all. Personally I felt that his identification with them was a serious hindrance to what God wanted him to do; but I just put it in God's hands. It seemed that it was hard for him to let go it seems. He is a very knowledgable and level headed man and you realize that as soon as he starts talking. I could listen to him talk about Finney and Whitfield and past revivals for hours.I have heard him preach several times this year and in every case the message has been one of repentance and genuine salvation. Strong messages that I have heard only the likes of on SI, never in person. He has not been invited back in most cases. That is an indictment on the churches. None of the messages outdoors or indoors were laced with weird flakey prophetic stuff. He is Pentecostal and that will carry certain things that make people nervous; but all in all, he preaches repentance and revival. I pray from here on out he preached bold repentance in our city. Here in Kansas City, we need it desperately! God Bless,-Robert

Thank God I did not get in! who knows how I would have reacted to such blatant madness and diabolical behavior.I am sorry you didn't Robert to be honest. I am also ignorant of much of this as well but every time these things come up it reverts back to my own earlier experience in the camps of the...what's the word? What's the word for wanting to cry, scream and throw-up at the same time?Why do these things stay with me and come right back to the forefront of thinking after such a long time now... This boasting of a pastor in being pulled over and given a police escort for being "drunk in the spirit"? This audacious spewing forth of "How blessed I am because of my discipline..." and "When the Holy Spirit shows up here, in about 20 minutes" and the blowing on people to be 'slain, the 'word of knowledge' and purple sheet's to lay on people fallen on the platform...' Or, upon reaching Heaven, "Forget all that, where's my mansion?" All this from the pulpit. Even in my utter ignorance and going along with much of what I had been led to believe still the sense that something is wrong and being chastised for up and leaving or sighing by body language. Was too ignorant in those days, was confused by the muddiness of it all to speak up.What does this all have to do with 'prophecy'? It sure seems to come from the same well of non-sense. The things that Andrew pointed out in the article even as perhaps 'silly' I find repulsive, maybe that's the word I am looking for. This is NOT Christianity.Dear Todd, appreciate your giving the benefit of the doubt on issues, pointing out things we may tend to overlook...Yet I don't see any way of defending any of this nor any reason why it should not be exposed, publicly. We do not do things in secret and maybe you are right in one factor, that this is all coming after the fact. Wish to God somebody would have had the gumption to stand up in the midst of it all and cry from the depths of their heart to stop this reproach to our God and dragging the name of our Lord through the mud.Forgive my indignation if it is misplaced, but this stuff galls me to no end.

Was too ignorant in those days, was confused by the muddiness of it all to speak upWhen a person is hungry for God they are very vulnerable. We share somewhat of a common experience here. I recall in those days reading books by people like Benny Hinn and Roberts Lairdan and even Smith Wigglesworth and Kathryn Kuhlman. Any book I could read in which the person really seemed to walk with God I would gobble it right up. I once road a train 24 hours one way to get to a single meeting that may have lasted 3 hours. In a strange way I learned some things here and there that were profitable;but in time I began drifting away from it all. In time I started loosing my confidence in them. Today I just feel hurt from what I see. The movement as I saw it then has radically changed into something that seems at times almost blasphemous. As a Pentecostal, I believe in the moving of the Spirit, but I just lost my faith in the reality of what I saw so many doing. I'm not the only one. Anymore I just don't talk about it. I only hope that all of the things that I thought were genuine were at least done from a pure heart. Ignorance is one thing; but if the day ever came that I truly knew I had been deceived I would be very heart broken. Nonetheless God has brought me to where I am. He used some of those teachings to get me here and I discarded the bad things. It has been quite a roller coaster ride. Thank God i am free from it all to serve Him and walk with him and not be dependent on other mens experiences.God Bless,-Robert

Is that not a type of the church in our day. Even priests such as Aaron comprimising having some of the world and some of God, pleasing both men and God which leds to the path of idolatry and other evils.I heard a minister on some religious channel on my way back from California in early October telling a young boy something to the effect; "Are you ready for the double portion?... Do you want the double portion... keep in mind I drive a Porshe!" The Spirit of God rose up in me and I could not help but openly rebuke what I saw! As if the double portion means the kid will someday be so prosperous be will drive a ride twice as nice as a Porshe. Personally I can't take anymore of it. God Bless,-Robert

"Are you ready for the double portion?... Do you want the double portion... keep in mind I drive a Porshe!"Yikes. I have too been drawn to the "love of money" over seeking Him. I recently went through some seeking the Lord and examining my heart over getting drawn to 'power' in what many different men preach. I am glad to see Andrew Strom move away some from what he was connected to in the prophetic stream. I have recently been reading a few of his books and like what he has written, but am cautious not to follow a movement, but listen to the Holy Spirit and not man. I like what was said that we need to be careful when we are hungry for God, because we are most vulnerable. We become a target for the emeny.Grace,Doug

Brother Robert wrote;"The Spirit of God rose up in me and I could not help but openly rebuke what I saw"!Lord Jesus please unction as many of your servants as will not grieve, nor quench the Holy Ghost, to such action ... Amen

As for me, I don't know much about the prophetic movement and I only had one brother speak prophetically to me on one occasion. I believe that the Holy Spirit will speak to any believer, not just a chosen few. So if I come before God with cleans hand and a pure heart, he will speak to me, consistent with His Word. Perhaps not in the manner or timeframe I want but He is God and I am not.The thing that bothers me in most of the prophetic movement is that they never say anything bad. Doesn't God hate sin? Doesn't He command us to repent? There is also the implication that God doesn't speak to the average person. Is that assumption scriptural under the new covenant? I don't think so but rather it creates a pyramid scheme of sorts (e.g. I'm more holy because I hear directly from God about this thing or that thing.)I think the time is upon us, where the message is going to be repent for judgment is coming. The message of repentance is one most needed in the US and probably other countries as well.Exposing sin is one of the primary works of the Holy Spirit (From John 16 8When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt[1] in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; 10in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.)Brother Andrew's continual focus on repentance is such a blessing to me. Thank God for this most precious gift. May we seek the Lord until all the fallow ground is plowed.

If you would like to read a very balanced view of the "prophetic movement" I strongly suggest "Thus Saith the Lord?" by John Bevere. The book is a loving rebuke to the current trend of personal prophesy that is more like charismatic fortune-telling than prophecy. This is a wonderful book and I highly recommend it!Burning,Jeff

He has another excellent book, called "The Bait of Satan". Talks about forgiveness, bitterness and "offenses" we experiences from others in the church. Grace,Doug

Yes, The Bait of Satan is excellent as well. I would suggest anything by Brother Bevere. Drawing Near, which is relatively new, is also excellent.Burning,Jeff

Bevere also has a book that is called "Under Cover". I do not agree with this book at all. It really pushed the whole "covering" thing they have in many charasmatic churches. "Who is your covering?" I can't tell you how many times I heard that. I saw many people abuse this and use it for control.Don't mean to burst the bubble- just giving my opinion. :-o Anybody else read it?In Him, Chanin

Chanin,No offense here. (LOL), I was a part of a church in the early 90's that was part of the Sheparding Movement, buy Bob Mumford, who has repented of this. It was a "covering" type theology where you were 'fathered' or shepard by another man/woman who was your covering. Very unscriptural and cultish. I am VERY , familiar with this and when through about 8 difficult years as a result of this. We are supposed to be underauthority to our church leaders, but this can open up a new topic thread of church authority, etc.Grace,Doug

todd wrote:What bothered me so much about this article is that it is all opinion based (as far as I can tell). And of course Strom has just as much a right to his opinion as anyone, though I don't know how justified he is in sharing it publically. But he is accountable to the Lord for that. Obviously Andrew had certain expectations going into the conference. He felt he had clearly heard from God. It seems he was hoping for the whole "old-fashioned" ("classic") repentence paradigm, and when that didn't happen then he was bothered. And he was bothered by the dancing and it's supposedly pagan feel. Though, once again, he only offers his opinions. And what else can he do, I don't think there exists any Scriptural support for his argument against the movement. They didn't repent in the right way in his opinion. They didn't dance "right". They didn't do the money thing "right". His arguments seem purely subjective. Where he clearly seems to be unjustified is where he makes absolute claims like, "instead of REPENTANCE, people are getting all kinds of counterfeit spiritual experiences." And how exactly does he know that for sure? No, I'm concluding that Strom is for sure unjustified in this situation overall. But if I'm just going by that message he sent out, it sure seems likely. But like Greg pointed out:"All I can think of in these times is 'keep looking to Jesus' and all the rest of this looks like trivia."Same theory on the other side of the issue. Leonard Ravenhill quoted someone when he gave a definition for a prophet . " A prophet is God's emergency man in an hour of crisis, he is torn between a fierce loyalty between God and His people" I am typing this from memory so I thinkits word for word but I could be wrong. Anyway, the point is that if you look at the "prophetic"movement today it doesn't seem to embody this statement. Apart from Andrew I don't hear the "prophets" preaching repentance.I think entirely too much empahsis is placed on going to get a "word" and the "school of the spirit". I have been disappointed with the lack of accountability, it seems if that no one is ever wrong, statements like "you know it could be something meant for the future" or so I have been told. There is no standard of when someone is right or they missed it. Even the leaders seem to be reluctant to say when they have missed God.I am thankful that Andrew has taken a stand.As Jesus told the Church in Laodicea 'Because you say, "I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing," and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked, 18 I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see. 19 'Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent. This applies as much today to the Western Churches as it did when it was first written.

" A prophet is God's emergency man in an hour of crisis, he is torn between a fierce loyalty between God and His people" If there is a word that needs to thunder throughout all of Christendom- it is a word of repentance to confront the secret sins in the lives of 'Christians', especially ministers. There is no more room for compromise. No more time to take a break from God and head off to an altar of Baal or Asteroth some place. When judgment begins in the house of God it is going to begin with the leadership first. Where are the Nathan's of our day that will point the finger into the heart and proclaim, "THOU ART THE MAN!" When I hear about people living in sin and prophesying it makes my blood boil. That ought NEVER so to be! There is no rebuke strong enough to meet such pretense head on. When these people are exposed it devestates people's faith. People's spiritual lives are wrecked. As far as I'm concerned there is no mountain high enough or trumpet loud enough to fully sound the alarm to this generation that so flippantly handles the things of God.

Crsschk,You wrote:"I don't see any way of defending any of this nor any reason why it should not be exposed, publicly"You don't see any way of defending any of what? Doing things differently then some people are comfortable with or had hoped it would be? For me it's pretty simple to defend much of this. All I really want to know is, where is there a clear Scriptural violation? In matters like this, I'm not going to be swayed to the point of forming solid conclusions, leading to a judgmental attitude, based on someone's opinions. Quote:"Wish to God somebody would have had the gumption to stand up in the midst of it all and cry from the depths of their heart to stop this reproach to our God and dragging the name of our Lord through the mud."Not tracking with you here. What about people like Hanegraff? it seems clear that he and those who shared his convictions sure tried hard to do something. As far as Ravenhill, this probably isn't the place to get too deep into that concept of a prophet. I would be very interested in exploring that some more on a new thread if anyone wants to. I would like to hear that Ravenhill quote in context but I am wondering if he was speaking more along the lines of how we see an Old Testament type of prophet.

Below, the Ravenhill item quoted and requested.Since when did the role of a prophet change into what we now see in the so called prophetic movement? 1994?Since when did a difference occur between the Old Testament and the New as to the prophetic dimesion and the prophetic office?Since when did the standards of a man of God change from Christ-likeness to fortune-telling and dancing around a golden calf?The prophetic plumb line: Should Jesus have done it this way.The prophetic mandate: Bringing a straying leadership and a hurting people back to the Lamb and to the Lord.Lars W.TRUE PROPHETSBy LEONARD RAVENHILL The prophet in his day is fully accepted of God and totally rejected by men. Years back, Dr. Gregory Mantle was right when he said, “No man can be fully accepted until he is totally rejected.” The prophet of the Lord is aware of both these experiences. They are his “brand name.” The group, challenged by the prophet because they are smug and comfortably insulated from a perishing world in their warm but untested theology, is not likely to vote him “Man of the year” when he refers to them as habituates of the synagogue of Satan! The prophet comes to set up that which is upset. His work is to call into line those who are out of line! He is unpopular because he opposes the popular in morality and spirituality. In a day of faceless politicians and voiceless preachers, there is not a more urgent national need than that we cry to God for a prophet! The function of the prophet, as Austin-Sparks once said, “has almost always been that of recovery.” The prophet is God’s detective seeking for a lost treasure. The degree of his effectiveness is determined by his measure of unpopularity. Compromise is not known to him. He has no price tags. He is totally “otherworldly.”He is unquestionably controversial and unpardonably hostile. He marches to another drummer! He breathes the rarefied air of inspiration. He is a “seer” who comes to lead the blind. He lives in the heights of God and comes into the valley with a “thus saith the Lord.” He shares some of the foreknowledge of God and so is aware of impending judgment. He lives in “splendid isolation.” He is forthright and outright, but he claims no birthright. His message is “repent, be reconciled to God or else...!” His prophecies are parried. His truth brings torment, but his voice is never void. He is the villain of today and the hero of tomorrow. He is excommunicated while alive and exalted when dead! He is dishonored with epithets when breathing and honored with epitaphs when dead. He is a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, but few “make the grade” in his class. He is friendless while living and famous when dead. He is against the establishment in ministry; then he is established as a saint by posterity. He eats daily the bread of affliction while he ministers, but he feeds the Bread of Life to those who listen. He walks before men for days but has walked before God for years. He is a scourge to the nation before he is scourged by the nation. He announces, pronounces, and denounces! He has a heart like a volcano and his words are as fire. He talks to men about God. He carries the lamp of truth amongst heretics while he is lampooned by men. He faces God before he faces men, but he is self-effacing. He hides with God in the secret place, but he has nothing to hide in the marketplace. He is naturally sensitive but supernaturally spiritual. He has passion, purpose and pugnacity. He is ordained of God but disdained by men.Our national need at this hour is not that the dollar recover its strength, or that we save face over the Watergate affair, or that we find the answer to the ecology problem. We need a God-sent prophet! I am bombarded with talk or letters about the coming shortages in our national life: bread, fuel, energy. I read between the lines from people not practiced in scaring folk. They feel that the “seven years of plenty” are over for us. The “seven years of famine” are ahead. But the greatest famine of all in this nation at this given moment is a FAMINE OF THE HEARING OF THE WORDS OF GOD (Amos 8:11). Millions have been spent on evangelism in the last twenty-five years. Hundreds of gospel messages streak through the air over the nation every day. Crusades have been held; healing meetings have made a vital contribution. “Come-outers” have “come out” and settled, too, without a nation-shaking revival. Organizers we have. Skilled preachers abound. Multi-million dollar Christian organizations straddle the nation. BUT where, oh where, is the prophet? Where are the incandescent men fresh from the holy place? Where is the Moses to plead in fasting before the holiness of the Lord for our moldy morality, our political perfidy, and sour and sick spirituality? GOD’S MEN ARE IN HIDING UNTIL THE DAY OF THEIR SHOWING FORTH. They will come. The prophet is violated during his ministry, but he is vindicated by history. There is a terrible vacuum in evangelical Christianity today. The missing person in our ranks is the prophet. The man with a terrible earnestness. The man totally otherworldly. The man rejected by other men, even other good men, because they consider him too austere, too severely committed, too negative and unsociable. Let him be as plain as John the Baptist. Let him for a season be a voice crying in the wilderness of modern theology and stagnant “churchianity.” Let him be as selfless as Paul the apostle. Let him, too, say and live, “This ONE thing I do.” Let him reject ecclesiastical favors. Let him be self-abasing, nonself-seeking, nonself-projecting, nonself- righteous, nonself-glorying, nonself-promoting. Let him say nothing that will draw men to himself but only that which will move men to God. Let him come daily from the throne room of a holy God, the place where he has received the order of the day. Let him, under God, unstop the ears of the millions who are deaf through the clatter of shekels milked from this hour of material mesmerism. Let him cry with a voice this century has not heard because he has seen a vision no man in this century has seen. God send us this Moses to lead us from the wilderness of crass materialism, where the rattlesnakes of lust bite us and where enlightened men, totally blind spiritually, lead us to an ever-nearing Armageddon. God have mercy! Send us PROPHETS!

For me it's pretty simple to defend much of this. All I really want to know is, where is there a clear Scriptural violation?"By the last session the audience was so hyped that they threw away all inhibition and leapt into the 'pagan' dancing themselves with wild abandon. And one of the main prophets even got up and announced that there were angels in the room going around "blowing on peoples' fingers" if only they would lift them up in the air. That particular part sounds silly, but actually the whole thing by this stage had become awful beyond words. Virtually every day I came home utterly grieved and depressed."For me it's pretty simple to defend much of this. All I really want to know is, where is there a clear Scriptural violation?Where is the scriptual precendence? And why would you want to defend any of this?Some violations? Do not grieve the Holy Spirit.Heb 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.Can see where this would end up going and feel that sadness in even wanting to get caught up in taking scriptures apart to make a point. If anything it violates the Spirit of scripture, of just how Holy and other God is and just how little is thought of Him and His Son and His Holy Angels who are not flying around blowing on peoples finger tips, that's not silly, that's sick.My quote: "Wish to God somebody would have had the gumption to stand up in the midst of it all and cry from the depths of their heart to stop this reproach to our God and dragging the name of our Lord through the mud."And your reply:Not tracking with you here. What about people like Hanegraff? it seems clear that he and those who shared his convictions sure tried hard to do somethingI meant right then and there, while it was happening.

My thanks, too, Rahman, for posting this. To all of you on this thread who are voicing the clear, humble truth against this pathetic movement, I am smiling ear to ear. You've encouraged me.Mrs. Fred :-)

Modern so called prophets soothe, make nice and present instructions on how to receive blessings and how to enter a state of affluence. Their god – intentionally spelled with a small “g” - tells how to get ready for the next step in the undefined development of the kingdom which never materialises. Their favourite composition hits the grand accord “Everything is all right. I want you to feel, feel good, feel very good.” Their counterpart in the profane sector of the same genre comes out “I’m OK, you are OK.”The modern namedropper, dropping his business card with its nice logotypes alluding to spiritual realities and with bombastic exposure of stolen titles, never makes any demands except on the purses of the audience. He rather instructs them to open up, to shut down the apparatus installed by the Lord which was made for thinking, discernment and sound judgment, to lower their defence in every possible way for the sake of an invasion from the spiritual realm. A new thing coming, a new thing coming. The New Testament prophet dresses his office with one aspiration – spiritual maturity, ability to handle life’s many obstacles with heavenly sobriety.The New Testament prophet defends the faith which was given once and for all, a heavenly framework within which man can commune with the Lord who sits on the throne, for ever praying for the full salvation and sanctification of the saints. This prophet gives his life in prayer, as the Lord did, for the shattered and battered sheep.The New Testament prophet works intensely to secure a revelation of what is heavenly to be displayed in his own life for the encouragement among saints unto holy endeavours.This is what we long for and pray for and reach out for. Nothing else satisfies.Lars W.

Two items.Snatched this from our brother Rahman in another thread.Brother Lars, Yours (to me) is the most quiet, consistent, grounded voice of our Lord on this forum (with chief emphasis on GROUNDED), and i praise God for you ...I too thank God, thanks Lars.This also may have been overlooked, a touch of sanity put in edgewise by Philologos in the midst of the battle, thanks Ron:a little church in every houseOne more.Jouko wrote:That was the point of my post Mike. How many times and yet still being deceived ? How many times did the prophets of old warn Israel of their sins ? As many times as was necessary, as many times as God decreed. No difference today.Sorry brother, one of those quirks of forum journalism. Absolutely got your point and in total agreement was coming alongside you here. These things are like bamboo shoots under the finger nails sometimes, never know the reactions that can come out.Think I am out of gas on this now...I think. :-?

Brother Lars, who (to me) usually speaks to us all via the meat of the Word from such spiritual giants as Tozer, and others, will every once in a while speak something profound in his own right ...Well out of the love of Christ (i hope you don't mind my sharing this) brother Lar's sent me an e-mail with the following words of wisdom that i feel led of the Lord to share ... He said;"We live under circumstances, generally speaking, in which a sober spirituality is an absolute necessity. Let us move along, together in this direction".That statement has hit me like a ton of bricks ... In light of the Strom and Hinn posts ...Brother Lars you wrote;Quote;"Modern so called prophets soothe, make nice and present instructions on how to receive blessings and how to enter a state of affluence". Amen, instead of how to be a blessing to God, their fellow heirs in Christ, and their fellow man ....Quote;Their god – intentionally spelled with a small “g” - tells how to get ready for the next step in the undefined development of the kingdom which never materialises.Ouch! ... "the undefined development of the kingdom which never materialises" ... Preach on brother! ... You may be quiet, but when our Lord opens your mouth He's got stinging truths to say! ... But "never materializes" brings it right down front, for it's only the Word of God that never returns void ... Man's conivings, schemes, tricks and formula's will always ring empty to all except the vile perpetrators, and those few that satan will disguise as carrots on a stick" ... Quote";"The New Testament prophet dresses his office with one aspiration – spiritual maturity, ability to handle life’s many obstacles with heavenly sobriety".Brother Lars, i'm praying tuff that our Lord will soon develope in you more, His teaching toward "spiritual soberness", "heavenly sobriety", for the majority of the folk of God may be drunk, but it definitely ain't in the truth of the Holy Ghost ... When He begins to fill you with His message of just what it means to be "spiritually sober', i'll be anticipating the sharing ... Ameni looked up the word sober, and all the scriptures i could find with the word ...so·bera : sparing in the use of food and drink : ABSTEMIOUS b : not addicted to intoxicating drink c : not drunk2 : marked by sedate or gravely or earnestly thoughtful character or demeanor3 : UNHURRIED, CALM4 : marked by temperance, moderation, or seriousness5 : subdued in tone or color6 : showing no excessive or extreme qualities of fancy, emotion, or prejudicesynonym see SERIOUSRom.12[3] For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.1Thes.5[6] Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.[8] But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.1Tim.3[2] A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;[11] Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.Tit.1[8] But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;Tit.2[2] That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.[4] That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,[6] Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded.[12] Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;1Pet.1[13] Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;1Pet.4[7] But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.1Pet.5[8] Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:- What do you think it means to be "spiritually sober", and why do you think that there are so many warnings to saints in scripture to be as such?- Do you think that it's possible for saints to become so drunk on the charasmatic, so pre-occupied with the gifts of the Spirit, or just plain gifts (material) from God that it causes spiritual staggering"?- Is a carnal covetous sin filled nature the reason why so many saints find themselves intoxicated on the lies of so many health and wealth false prophets?What do you guys think?

The prophetic movement is bored to death with Jesus and the normal Christian life.

The normal Christian life consists of growth unto holiness, maturing unto fullness and the pursuit of perfection.The normal Christian life consists of prayer for life to conquer where sin abounds and light to shine in darkness.The normal Christian life consists of a testimony of kindness overcoming foul play and meekness securing victory before the impossible.The normal Christian life outmanoeuvres in its weakness and defencelessness the greatest assaults on truth.The normal Christian life is all about crystal, a sea as wide as Heaven and a throne at its center and a Lamb. . . and tears wiped away. . . and joy forever.Boring??

Boring??Isn't it sad that folks find all the things you mention as boring? I am not at all excited about prophetic utterances or any other such thing. I expect them to occur as part of the life of the Church, but they only occur to help assist us live the normal Christian life, which you so perfectly describe. I've been to a "school of the Spirit" once, where living the victorious Christian life was hardly what most people there were concerned with. When I went, the prophets in training got up and gave their utterances, about 15 in all to a congregation of about 500. Of the 15 "personal prophecies" they gave, nobody was once rebuked for sin, yet the fruit of the people there that I knew was full of it. Anyway...

Perhaps the dilemma and the dissatisfaction begin at the beginning of the Christian life.To be born again contains a radical change in the constitution of the inner man.Accepting Christ in a modern evangelistic campaign with all its suggestive paraphernalia invites an overwhelming sense of belonging, a religious experience, but is seldom enough to produce the necessary conviction, repentance and surrender which alone brings a soul into the Kingdom. What we have is a mental operation, a choice to be made – by “accepting Christ” man is still in charge, the “I” never leaves the throne.To be born again means to be born right.To be born again means separation – no compromise.To be born again means spiritual functionality – no entertainment.To be born again means co-operation – no competition.To be born again means vocation – no renouncing of responsibility.To be born again brings attraction to heavenly realities.This and a lot more seem to be lost in our general church life, this opens for dissatisfaction and deception.Lars W.

I guess my question now that we have exposed the problem is, what next? What are we to do with sad state of the church? When I was saved in 1985, I believe it was like a "spirital abortion" or pre-born again experience. I was seeking God, but was not ready to give up my sin. I said the "sinners prayer" by the coaching of another Christian, and while I was experiencing the Christian life, there was no life really in me. It was not only until about 3 years ago, when I had to come to the cross deeply and repent of some grave sins in my life and turn away from sin and to the Lord. Was I "saved" for the past 15 years or so? I don't know, I think so, but I believe that many people in the church are like me, who wear the name "christian" but are not convicted of sin and have not Him in there lives. They have not turned from sin, and are living a double life.Grace,Doug

I guess my question now that we have exposed the problem is, what next? What are we to do with sad state of the church? We fast and pray with renewed fervor. We let the Lord break our hearts, and accept the burden of prayer for His church. If we don't, who will? Who is better armed for such conflict.We can't ignore it, we can't change it, it's too big. We must pray with great seriousness, like we never have before.Mrs. Fred

Crsschk,You wrote:"Where is the scriptual precendence?"Where do you find it in Scripture that there needs to be scriptural precedence? But even so, this sounds a lot like David's dancing before the Lord. Yes, very undignified in the eyes of others, but it was before the Lord. It also sounds very childlike. How about extravagant worship? There's just a few ideas for you to consider.Quote:"And why would you want to defend any of this?"Because these are members of the body of Christ who it seems are being misrepresented. I suppose that in itself is enough. I totally agree about the bummer of getting "caught up in taking scriptures apart to make a point." And it seems clear it would take a lot of work to try and make a Scriptural case against any of these things. I assume this is because there is no clear scriptural violation here. You wrote- "Some violations?" I would answer "no". I don't see how there was a violation of the Sciptures you posted. Perhaps you can expand and clarify on why you would think so. I'm not real familiar with "the Spirit of the scripture"... is there a scriptural precedent for that term? ;-) Quote:"Holy Angels who are not flying around blowing on peoples finger tips, that's not silly, that's sick."Label it what you will; what if it's true? I wonder how silly and/or sick tongues seemed when it first arrived on the scene in a massive way."What is this God? Are You some kind of weirdo?" (Or perhaps you might say "sicko")I wonder how silly David looked dancing in his underwear. "DAVID!!! Don't you know God is holy? Cut that silliness out!" Quote:"I meant right then and there, while it was happening."Ok. Now I get it- kind of. Thanks for clarifying.

You know, I read through this entire thread for the first time today. Something was coming up in me as I read through and then finally at the end, Doug asks the questionI guess my question now that we have exposed the problem is, what next? What are we to do with sad state of the church? The thing that keeps coming up in me is "finger pointing". How can we stand in the gap for this "sad state of the church" when we keep looking at it as us against them? We see their problem. You know what God has shown me? We are them. They are us. We can't pray for them as them. We must own them. We can't separate ourselves from them like they have leprosy and we don't. If they have leprosy, we have leprosy. The church is sick, alright, and we are it. I say, let's become them before God. Let's stand before God in their place. Or should I say, let's lay before God in their stead? All her sin is cast on me, for she must and shall go free.

Lars,Quote:"Below, the Ravenhill item quoted and requested."Thanks.Quote:"Since when did the role of a prophet change into what we now see in the so called prophetic movement? 1994?"No.Quote:"Since when did a difference occur between the Old Testament and the New as to the prophetic dimesion and the prophetic office?"Perhaps when most other things about how God related to humanity drastically changed- the revelation of Christ and Pentecost (the Spirit poured out upon a group, not just an individual).Quote:"Since when did the standards of a man of God change from Christ-likeness to fortune-telling and dancing around a golden calf?"I don't think they did.Quote:"The prophetic plumb line: Should Jesus have done it this way."Could you expand on why you think this is the plumbline? Quote:"The prophetic mandate: Bringing a straying leadership and a hurting people back to the Lamb and to the Lord."Could you expand on why you think this is the prophetic mandate? Why do you distinguish "the Lamb" from "the Lord"?

Spitfire, You wrote:"You know what God has shown me? We are them. They are us. We can't pray for them as them. We must own them. We can't separate ourselves from them like they have leprosy and we don't. If they have leprosy, we have leprosy. The church is sick, alright, and we are it."Can't say that I agree with this specifically as to how this might relate to the controversial things mentioned on this thread. In fact, you might consider me as part of "them." But as a general principle for the Body of Christ, this is just beatiful and profound. Thanks.

"Holy Angels who are not flying around blowing on peoples finger tips, that's not silly, that's sick."Not to mention insulting! If an angel were flying around blowing on your finger tips, you would not need to be told so! Such an idea is an insult to the angels as well, and we should not revile them in such a way. Angels are "ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation" (Heb 1:14) They are God's ministers, being a "flame of fire." (Heb 1:7). All these angelic encounters many in the prophetic movement have seem to only bring glory to men and angels, with no glory going towards God. None of these fat cows of Bashan have need of any angel to come deliver them, as if they were tossed to the bottom of a well as Sundar Singh was, they would simply pull out their cell phone and call for somebody to come lift them out.

Boy this is never easy with this guy :-P (and I bet Todd is saying the same thing!)I love you Todd and I know you know that, hopefully.Perhaps I go to far in my zeal. Perhaps it's the re-opening of old wounds. Perhaps it's the lacking ability to articulate what I really want to say...Where do you find it in Scripture that there needs to be scriptural precedence?Maybe that's the wrong term.If you want to take the 'angel' bit for instance. What I have found in all my reading about angels in scripture is that this is not a characteristic of them. It seems that they usually strike fear into humans upon first contact, which seems to be a reasonable expectation being that they are Holy.I am no theologian, but this just gives me a sick feeling to hear these things, so maybe it's just me. But if the Word of God is authoritative and is our measuring rod at what point do we determine what is not of God and what is?Wouldn't this mean that the Mormons are right then? Their burning in the bosom? It's not in the bible either...Some of it has got to be common sense.Maybe a better question to this is, why? Why would angels be blowing on peoples finger tips?It just sounds ridiculous and demeaning and yes sickening, maybe I have a sensitive stomach.I wonder how silly David looked dancing in his underwearAnd why was he dancing in the first place? Seems quite a reach to compare that with what was described. Also that was but a part of the whole in context of what he had written and he wasn't even blaming the dancers.The "Spirit of scripture"...The "Holy Spirit" is what I meant;2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.But perhaps a bad way of putting it.I guess if you want to boil it all down it seems to be a lack of reverence in my opinion.And I am sorry if it looks like so much finger pointing. It's not that at all, good grief who am I? I am nobody and I hate no one, not even Benny Hinn and the others that are of that mindset. I really had to deal with that at some point because I think I actually did begin to go in that direction until somewhere along the line the question came up awhile back and produced a gut check.It is precisely because we are the Body of Christ that these things make me want to cry and scream and yes throw up. But for Gods sake are we to just sweep these things under the rug? Make concessions for every strange thing that comes along the pike? Maybe my zeal has carried me into pride, I hope not may the Lord deal with me if it's so. There just seems to be this audacity and frivolousness and lack of realization of just Who it is we have to answer to. This idea that God is somehow down on our level that we can kid around and make light of these things in this way. He is the creator of the universe, a consuming fire, His wrath as well as His love. Mercy and grace, but He hates! God hates! He hates sin! Where is the awe? Where is the worship? From the heart?He poured it all out on His Son ... for us? Frivolous, undeserving creatures...I don't know where I am going with this now.But this all once again did cause me to reflect back into where I have done the same thing, where I have been irreverent and careless. God forgive me. I don't know what the answer is, maybe we need to be humbled, maybe Andrew was right in his initial promptings that we need to repent.But as to the rest of this I can see why many don't even go into it all it just seems to go nowhere...besides I am tired. I give up. Forgive me.

Dear King,Saw your post after this latest drivel of mine.Would you consider being an Aaron to me? I don't know how to talk... :-(

Mike, maybe this is how you feel.Ezr 9:3 And when I heard this thing, I rent my garment and my robe, and plucked off the hair of my head and of my beard, and sat down confounded.Pro 30:5 Every word of God is tried: He is a shield unto them that take refuge in him.

Thanks Jouko,Perfect.

A definition of sin and a separation from it is an absolute necessity.A true prophet occupied with such definitions. He does not point fingers.Thorough, thoughtful and truthful intercession is an absolute necessity.It involves a price to be paid by mature Christians; the novice should not get involved because of the possibilities of counter-operations targeting the weak and vulnerable. The enemy has no scruples.A ministry of confrontation and correction is an absolute necessity.Interaction unto repentance goes on at certain levels, in certain settings.This is a burden which few are able to carry. Take a look at my article “A Burden, the unwelcome necessity.”This work must go on and on as the deception goes on and on.A prophet, viewed by “Them”, cannot be corrected – a stance which makes it very difficult to reach happy endings.Lars

My question:"Since when did the role of a prophet change into what we now see in the so called prophetic movement? 1994?"Todd’s answer: An emphatic “No”.Comment: “Dr.” Bill Hamon states that the Prophetic movement began in 1980 – from his Prophets and prophetic movement. Hamon, and his followers produces a link between the Latter Rain-movement (!948), the Charismatics, the Faith churches and the latest items on the scene. Many refer to 1994, to Toronto, as a road sign into this brand of the prophetic.It is within this realm we find a thorough effort of re-defining the prophetic office with its rejection of holy living as a foundation for credibility.

My question:"Since when did a difference occur between the Old Testament and the New as to the prophetic dimension and the prophetic office?"Todd’s answer:Perhaps when most other things about how God related to humanity drastically changed- the revelation of Christ and Pentecost (the Spirit poured out upon a group, not just an individual).Comment:Nothing changed as to how God relates to humanity by the coming of Christ, the Cross and the resurrection.Rather, a definite reference point was established, the Cross, in relation to which everything is thoroughly defined as to belonging or alienation, as to validity or as rubbish. The prophet, as an individual or in a fellowship, still deals with sin and redemption. They still consider and ponder the ways of the Lord concerning the individual and/or collective testimony, the revelation of Christ in man summed up in holy living and Christ-likeness.Their instruments are sharper after revelation of the Cross than before. The prophets of the New Testament are more radical than the former ones because of the Cross.

crsschk wrote:Dear King,Saw your post after this latest drivel of mine.Would you consider being an Aaron to me? I don't know how to talk... :-( I'll be your Aaron :-)

It involves a price to be paid by mature Christians; the novice should not get involved because of the possibilities of counter-operations targeting the weak and vulnerable. The enemy has no scruples.Lars, I love you, Brother, but sometimes you talk way over my head. Perhaps I am just a silly woman. What are you saying here, exactly? I was wondering if your meaning was directed towards me? A prophet, viewed by “Them”, cannot be corrected – a stance which makes it very difficult to reach happy endings.I didn't understand what you were saying here, either. Could you please say it in layman's terms? I can't tell if you agree or disagree with what I was saying about "them". Please forgive me. I'm not trying to be confrontational. It's just hard to know what's really going on here sometimes because we aren't looking at one another. We are getting a one dimensional view of one another.

I agree on the fact that this is a part of the Church, to be regarded as straying sheep and a sinful leadership.I agree on the necessity as to sharing responsibility, carrying a burden for change.We need to engage in battle for this section of Christianity – even as if they were very close to us, defining the enemy and by the grace of God taking out the enemy.But the enemy will not give in easily – and he has a well established stronghold among many of these men.When we engage in prayer for them, as for anything of value to the Lord, the enemy normally reacts by hitting back – and he chooses the weak as a target.A general warning is therefore appropriate sounded for us all not to take the issue of battle lightly, especially if we are not in proper spiritual condition.These so called prophets have positioned themselves above reproach. Therefore, engaging them in dialogue is a very tiresome work and confronting them will most of the time lead to foul play and bad, even very bad reactions from them. We need much prayer for those who have a position in which they can come close to this leadership. Some of us have been stationed for battle for a long time.Lars W.

I'll be your Aaron Touche` brother!Speak on! :-P

Quote: I'll be your Aaron Touche` brother!Speak on!Hi MikeYou do understand the implications of this, I hope.And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet. (Exo 7:1 KJV)If someone is your Aaron, that makes you 'god'. You don't think this moderator thing and being Greg's backup is going a little to your head do you? ;-) I would have offered to be your Aa-ron, but as I have no 'hair' I'll just have to be 'ron'.

My question:"Since when did the standards of a man of God change from Christ-likeness to fortune-telling and dancing around a golden calf?"Todd’s answerI don't think they did.Why, then, are these practices and many more hailed as proper behaviour in conferences and churches?Why has the prophetic interpretation of God’s standards gone off tangent?Spiritual maturity signifies gullibility. The Berean mindset was hailed for its integrity and willingness to search the scriptures. Today, it stands for an openness for whatever is handed our by spiritual bartenders. Drunkenness is lifted up as the trendy expression of spirituality.A full measure of Christ manifesting in mild and caring expressions towards the oppressed and needy is reversed into a robbing the widow and crushing the one already beaten and downtrodden. And we could go on. . .Paul said regarding the false apostles, you bear with anyone if he enslaves you, if he devours you, if he takes advantage of you, if exalts himself, if he hits you in the face.Lars W.

You do understand the implications of this, I hope.Yikes! Apparently not!And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet. (Exo 7:1 KJV)The dangers of trying to be cute...:-o Aaron, I think I have gotten us into a bit of a mess here...I know there is a back door around here somewhere...I would have offered to be your Aa-ron, but as I have no 'hair' I'll just have to be 'ron'. Well I have some hair to spare even after shoring the locks by about 5 inches as it appears this goofball has acquired a 'real' job. Now that I resemble the guy on the Quakers Oats container might have to go a bit further, could send the results, should be enough to make a nice toupee' :-) You know on the 'serious' side that scripture does bring to mind another and a new post...

I have held off from commenting on this tread, apart from to make "ice cutting" comments and obvious statements. My reason for this, is that I have been a long time supporter of these "prophets" (albeit from in the closet, when it comes to this site;-)), so I didn't want to comment until I had adequately proccessed the events.One thing that I do know, is that prophets speak of things that few understand, and as a result, attract criticsm, which is often the result of misunderstanding. By prophet, I don't mean someone who has an office, or annointing, but more in the sense of being a "prophetic person".To define the term as I am using it, I mean someone who has a grasp on things that "regular christians" can't comprehend. For example, few could comprehend the meaning of what repentance is, untill J Edwin Orr preached about the "First Word of the Gospel". The church didn't understand "Salvation by Faith" until Luther posted his theses. Granted, God always has a remnant to defend the faith, yet He seems to allow a man to stand up and attach his face to a truth, as a vehicle to alert those outside of the remnant of it's existance. In this sense of the word, we would include Finney, Tozer, Ravenhill, Katz, Comfort, Wilkerson, to name but a few.Simply because a man claims himself to be a prophet, neither excludes nor qualifies him to be one. It simply displays possibly a degree of imaturity in the individual, that desires recognition. Perhaps he has launched before his time. Perhaps he had no place claiming to be what he has. Perhaps God has actually commanded him to declare himself to be a prophet to offend minds like ours.One thing that I do know is that God has humbled me thoughout my walk, by bringing alongside of me influences who failed miserably. The man who successfully prayed for me to be delivered from drug addiction, had a marriage breakdown within a year later. Another significant influence turned out to be a closet homosexual. And that's just scratching the surface.I began to think that my involvement in someone's life was a sign of their impending doom. One of these "prophets" that has had significant influence in my life is Rick Joyner. It was Joyner who first drew my attention to the trees in th garden of Eden, The Final Quest series has been as an incredible indicator as to the condition of the modern church, as Wilkerson 1973 Vision.I have read many a criticism online regarding the "Civil War", the "devine inspiration claims" of his writings, and his membership of the Knights of Malta. However, many of these opinions are based upon false assumptions as to the meaning of his writings.Knights of Malta is a branch of York Rite Freemasonry. Joyner claims to have joined a group based in Malta, that traces it's origins right back to the crusades. Where the Masonic group simply borrows the name. Devine inspiration are adamently denied by Joyner, who acknowledges that his writtings are simply show us to see a different slant on misunderstood scripture. How is this different from Tozer's "Persuit of God" challenging the "normal" chritianity of it's day?The Chritian Civil War criticsm's actually fulfill the "prophecy" given. Really, the Chritian Civil War is just a repackaging of the same old "Calvanism v Arminianism" that has been resurfacing throughout christendom. Call it Law v Grace, Works v Faith, etc...it's simply an expression of us trying to separate one gospel into two opposing truths.Chapter 1 of Final Quest begins with a demon horde riding on the backs of christians. The demons vomit "condemnation", which the christians mistake for "conviction", and they defacate "pride" which they mistake for annointing. The army is marching toward the christians, who are playing games and having dinners. The christians are oblivious to the fact that the enemy is coming, saying "We're protected by the Lord, and have nothing to worry about."If the first army isn't the "Arminian/Works/Law" camp (who incidently claim that Joyner is saying that the civil war is between the "prophetic movement" and those who "preach repentance") and if the second camp aren't the "Calvinist/Faith/Garce" (who claim that the civil war is between the "prophetic movement" and those who preach "salvation by grace"), then I'm a baked chicken. It's easy to see these two camps firmly entrenched, and at times I am amazed at comments made by people of both extremes. The reality is we cannot afford the luxury of choosing sides.Calvin never denied human responsability in sin, and Arminus never claimed that the christian was capable of perfect in himself. Luther repented of denying the inspiration of the James' epistle, when he realised the "We are saved by faith and not of work, but your faith cannot save you unless it works."The Final Quest continues by showing the christians who realised the futility of the war being waged, ascending a mountain with different levels being different truths, until the reached the "Gal 2:20" level. From this level, they could effectively combat the deception that the "warring cristians" were under.Of course, the two camps criticise by saying, "How dare you Joyner. Claiming that we are deceived." Yet one camp claims that the other is dceived....and there both right. Where these warring factions claim to be at war with the "prophetic movement", Joyner claims that those who are on the mountain, have stepped out of the fight to fight the lies, rather than the people.In the same series, Joyner rebukes the laughing movement (by calling for sobriety, saying that it's time to be serious), and mentions the fact that the end time Apostles and Prophets will experience anonymity (this is particularly address in "The Call"). The reailty is that there is no such thing as the "prophetic movement", in the sence that you cannot bundle all these people into one category.To illustrate what I'm saying, there is an individual that I am pesonally aware of, who is running around spouting his mouth about Sermon Index. The individual aligns himself with certian "Word of Faith" preachers (however there are many he rejects). This individual leans heavily on the "Faith/Grace" camp, rejecting "Law/Works" tecahing. This man wants to pull down the "Sermon Index" movement, for preaching a false Jesus.I am not being funny, this is really happening. If this man has his way, SI would be shut down. Yet anyone hear would reject the notion that SI is a movement, and rightly so. In fact, many who frequent SI have done away with the notion of movements altogether, acknowledging demoninational differentiations as a "necessary evil". Church fellowships have become "mission fields", as we search those who will awken to the true gospel.Agian, Luther stayed in the Catholic church. His goal was to reform the Catholics, not to establish the Lutheran Church. He could have gone to join all the other "London City Heretics" being burnt at the stake, but he represented them in Germany....I mean, how ridiculous a statement.Was the Whitedove conference off, in regard to knowing the will of God? Highly likely. Yet the reasons given for this happening (namely, the fall of Paul Cain), is highly humanistic, and not devine (outside of the possiblitiy that Cain's fall had prophetic significance...which would make him a prophet). We can't have it both ways friends.Away, let the stoning begin.

Thought about coming back here under a pseudonym but..A lot to muse on here Aaron. But care to comment on the 'angels' and other...'disturbing' things that seemed to have ruffled a few of our feathers?Not to provoke in the least, but these things seemed to be what are bothersome and really the sense of the whole article from what I could gather was of that...'atmosphere' if I could put it that way.

To gather a fuller and truer perspective on Mr. Joyner’s involvement in occult lore,mail us a request for the article “Covenants and Chivalry” by Lars Widerberg.Intercessors.Network@comehm.se

lwpray wrote:A ministry of confrontation and correction is an absolute necessity.Interaction unto repentance goes on at certain levels, in certain settings.This is a burden which few are able to carry. Take a look at my article “A Burden, the unwelcome necessity.”This work must go on and on as the deception goes on and on.A prophet, viewed by “Them”, cannot be corrected – a stance which makes it very difficult to reach happy endings.I'm not sure of your sources, regarding the claim that "they" belive they are exempt from correction. Rick Joyner wrote:Please also understand that if Paul had been a true member of a local church, under the true authority of a pastor, we would have simply taken it there. However, with Paul this was not the case. As Mike, Jack, and I have talked about considerably, one of our biggest failures in this matter was to think that because Paul had such special gifts he deserved special treatment and did not need to be incorporated into the life of the local church like others. I have little doubt that if Paul had been required to comply with the disciplines of a normal Christian life, which without question includes a true church life, these strongholds would have been exposed long ago.Mike Bickle was Paul Cain's pastor at one point. In his book "Growing in the Prophetic", he lays out a clear structure that they had set up, to ensure prophetic integrity, where every "prophetic word" delivered would be recorded, so as to allow accountability, should something "off" be spoken. Every prophecy was to be "judged by the prophets".Understanding the falacy of the existance of a "prophetic movement", Bickle dedicates an appendix to this book to running "Drinking Meetings" (refering to "holy laughter"). While he accepts this phenonema, Joyner rejects it. The "prophetic movement" is about people relating on a common ground, as we relate on a common ground.

The number of sources in this field are beyond possibilities of counting after 20 years of work in direct relation to many of these ministies.L.W.

Brother Aaron,I saw your prior message, where you said "Let the stoning begin." I don't believe anyone here on SI would do such a thing, regardless of whether they agree with you or not.I'm not going to judge the heart of any man but we can test what they say against God's word. That's the only litmus test I use.The prophets of old focused so much on repentance. That's where my present focus is and for whatever reason I fail to see this message articulated by most of the modern day prophets. Where's the brokenness over sin? Where's the crying out for repentance? Repentance has to be done for specific sins and the prophets used to describe those sins in great detail. We try to get by with a general repentance and that's not really repentance at all.Thank God for the prophets who will preach the message of repentance. They will be unpopular and persecuted by the modern church, but they will speak the Word of God with power and authority.That's what deeply concerns me about the prophetic movement in this country. I'm sorry Brother Aaron, I diverted off the topic a bit here but we all see through the glass darkly.

The prophetic movement is bored to death with Jesus and the normal Christian life.It seems like this is true on the surface; but I think the problem is a little deeper than this. I have had only limited contact with these people, but just this year I was in two services to hear Art Katz at IHOP (International House of Prayer). Before he spoke there was a continuous time of worship that I must be careful to characterize. I don't believe that it is so much that they are 'bored' with Jesus; but that they are in love with the idea of Jesus and not the reality of Jesus. They are locked up in the Song of Solomon thing that sees Christ chasing His bride over the hillside or something. It reminds me much of the hippy movement and the 'love' and 'peace' - "Jesus loves me, loves you, loves everybody thing." They seem to be way out of balance on the love of Christ. They dwell in the goodness and love and not in the severity. An emphasis on love is a good thing if it is balanced with holiness and righteousness; but when they are out of balance it is difficult to preach a thunderous message of repentance to them because they don't even perceive God in that light. It is a side of God they never knew. Its almost like they were 'too sensitive' to take a spanking they desperately need. The word 'love' must be biblically defined and fast. This is the next step I belive in seeing the Church come into revival.

We who live in free, affluent countries are missing vital ingredients of the Gospel. I am convinced: Much of scripture cannot be understood unless one’s life is at stake. We have too much time on our hands. We can sit in our comfortable homes, conference centers, church offices, upscale retreats, healing rooms, prayer towers, or whatever we decide to build, and never understand Our Lord and His message. We can spend days and months and years talking and writing and debating whatever we want about anything we want. And be as far away from authentic Christianity as the most deranged pagan.Those who spend their days determining different levels of demonic activity, angelic activity, anointing activity, prophetic activity, Old Testament links to current events, end time theology, whatever the current fad is… what a pathetic use of time, energy and money. We’re all being duped big-time. It IS our fault. We’re stupid, blind, fat, rich westerners who don’t have a CLUE. I’m right in there with all of us and it horrifies me!The western church is so stuck on itself, so caught up in fables and fortunes, I have lost all respect for it. Look closely at the church in other countries, where it COSTS SOMETHING to be a Christian. They don’t have problems discerning principalities and powers --- they have THE power. They don’t waste time writing books --- they have THE book. They could care less about prophetic offices, prophetic mumbo-jumbo, prophetic prayer breakfasts, prophetic conferences and prophetic pronouncements from rich prophetic super-stars. They have REAL prophets who have nothing…. except scars from their beatings and tortures. REAL prophets who have nothing… except broken bodies from years of imprisonment, starvation, and forced labor. REAL prophets who have nothing… because all of their loved ones, all of their possessions, everything they own or love on this earth, has been taken from them, many times over… because they would not let go of JESUS or deny His Holy Name.THOSE are the prophets I will listen to. Mrs. Fred

Lars,Quote:"Nothing changed as to how God relates to humanity by the coming of Christ, the Cross and the resurrection."Hmmmm... the veil torn in two? Hebrews 10, especially verses 19-22? The new and living way inaugurated for us through Jesus' flesh... we now have confidence to enter the holy place by His blood... to draw near like never before? Ephesians 2:8-22? Fulfillment of the Law? Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant? Those are just some inital thoughts. I feel like I could go on and on. And you didn't even mention Pentecost. How can you say that nothing changed? It seems nearly everything changed. Quote:"The prophet, as an individual or in a fellowship, still deals with sin and redemption."Yeah, I guess all Christians play a part in dealing with those things amongst each other. 1 Cor. 14:3 is more of what I would expect, in general, from a person who would be described as prophetic today. Quote:"Why, then, are these practices and many more hailed as proper behaviour in conferences and churches?Perhaps in some "churches" this is the case. Obviously I can't say for sure. But I don't believe the folks in question in this thread are suspect concerning these issues you bring up.Quote:"Why has the prophetic interpretation of God’s standards gone off tangent?"I don't think they have across the board. Sure there might be some here and there that miss it occasionally. I don't know. I am not very interested in dealing with what might be occuring hypathetically. I am primarily concerned, at the moment, with dealing with the material from the Strom article. I think it will be most fruitful to stay focused on that.Quote:"The Berean mindset was hailed for its integrity and willingness to search the scriptures."I think what was at least equally (if not more) important was their great eagerness to find out if these exciting things were for real. They were very "open-minded." If there's no clear scriptural contradiction, then it might be God.Quote:"Drunkenness is lifted up as the trendy expression of spirituality... A full measure of Christ manifesting in mild and caring expressions towards the oppressed and needy is reversed into a robbing the widow and crushing the one already beaten and downtrodden. And we could go on. . ."Perhaps you should try and take up this argument with some folks right in the midst of what you might term "the prophetic movement"... Rolland and Heidi Baker- who gave up everything to go live in the poorest place in the world and shine with the light and love of Christ. They've actually come to the West to help us, they didn't really want to but they realized that we are poor too, in different ways (mostly spiritually I think). And I could go on...Then again, what's mild about plundering hell? Healing the sick, casting out devils, raising people from the dead, signs, wonders, and miracles, etc.?I'm all for mercy ministries who give to the poor relationally and materially (mild ways), but I'm even more excited about truly compassionate and powerful ministries that set them free from oppression and defeat.

Look closely at the church in other countries, where it COSTS SOMETHING to be a Christian. They don’t have problems discerning principalities and powers --- they have THE power. They don’t waste time writing books --- they have THE book. They could care less about prophetic offices, prophetic mumbo-jumbo, prophetic prayer breakfasts, prophetic conferences and prophetic pronouncements from rich prophetic super-stars. They have REAL prophets who have nothing…. except scars from their beatings and tortures. REAL prophets who have nothing… except broken bodies from years of imprisonment, starvation, and forced labor. REAL prophets who have nothing… because all of their loved ones, all of their possessions, everything they own or love on this earth, has been taken from them, many times over… because they would not let go of JESUS or deny His Holy Name.I have a book called Tortured for Christ by Richard Wurmbrand. In that book there is a chapter I shall never forget. I seem to recall it was called, "We Preached and they Beat." It happens that during his imprisonment he and a few other Christian prisoners in the Communist prison made a deal with the guards. The suffering for preaching Jesus was so vile I will not write it here. On one occasion a man was drug out of the cell in the middle of his sermon and taken and beaten within an inch of his life. When the guards were through they threw him back in the cell. He took a moment and gathered himself and in a moment declared, "Now where was I?". The deal was, "WE PREACHED AND THEY BEAT"- Wurmbrand stated, "We were happy preaching, they were happy beating us, and we were all happy!" Where are prophets like that in our day? Where are the George Foxes'? All the prophets were persecuted in some way. How is it that a person could apply to themselves the office of a prophet? Let their persecutions declare their office.

The word 'love' must be biblically defined and fast. This is the next step I belive in seeing the Church come into revival. Amen, and Amen. They seem to be way out of balance on the love of Christ. They dwell in the goodness and love and not in the severity. An emphasis on love is a good thing if it is balanced with holiness and righteousness; but when they are out of balance it is difficult to preach a thunderous message of repentance to them because they don't even perceive God in that light. It is a side of God they never knew. Its almost like they were 'too sensitive' to take a spanking they desperately need.Oh, this is so true. This has been true of me. I'm so glad God finally caught me by the hair and as we say in the South, tore my tail up! After I got through pouting, I began to humble myself. I pray that my life can become as Chanin so eloquently put it on another thread, a walking conviction. I don't know if you can really preach this apart from much prayer that God will open the eyes of the blind.

They seem to be way out of balance on the love of Christ. They dwell in the goodness and love and not in the severity. An emphasis on love is a good thing if it is balanced with holiness and righteousness;In my own deliverance from 'Christian city', it was the 'fear of the Lord' which brought me to the foot of the cross. When the Lord blessed me with the knowledge of this fear- it developed into a mutual love. Yes, a 'song of solomon' kind of love but I still have the fear of the Lord to go along with it.Robert, you're right there is a balance. Even from this NANC conference I attended last night, they stated that interestingly enough,in the bible love for God and the fear of God are nearly synonomous. They form no contrast, but work in tandem.The reason why I know this to be true is because of the people I know (personally) who are still part of the prophetic movement (though I love them)they do not get the whole "surrender" thing. They think that God will love them right where they are- and it dosn't cause them to want to change or give their all. Only part.Actually as i think about it, this goes for the people I know who are in Baptists churches, Church of God, you name it. I guess what I am saying is- though, the prophetic community may claim to be "tight" with God (compared to say baptists or any other christian) there seems to be a lack of willingness to give up their own lives (and their rights, wills, money- whatever is asked of them) - a lack of obedience out of fear of offending a Holy God. There is not a lack of love here. We love Him enough to obey Him. He loves us to want what's best for us- absolute surrender is what's best. :-) In Him, Chanin

Aaron, You wrote:"While [Bickle] accepts this phenonema, Joyner rejects it."Where do you find this?

Amen Mrs. Fred,If we really want to follow Christ, there's always a significant cost attached. It's going to cost our time, our money, our everything if we're going to follow Christ.The present Gospel in the U.S. promises much and requires little. I'm reminded of Jesus words in Luke 14:33 "So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple."

Yes, a 'song of solomon' kind of love but I still have the fear of the Lord to go along with it.Praise God! I like that comment on the love and fear of God working in tandem. The whole post, actually, is true. The present Gospel in the U.S. promises much and requires little.Amen!

Mike, You wrote:"But if the Word of God is authoritative and is our measuring rod at what point do we determine what is not of God and what is?"Maybe there's some things we can't immediately determine for sure, we may have to wait awhile, or possibly never determine in a conclusive way. If it's not clearly shown to be wrong in the Scriptures, then who are we to think we can make that judgment? How much faith do you put in "common sense"? I am going to stick with the Scriptures. If they leave an open door, I'm not going to shut it. That doesn't mean I'm going to accept everything that comes my way. I may have to reserve judgment indefinately; throw it into the file labeled "mystery" or "?" in my mind. And I can believe whatever I want in private. But I certainly don't trust in opinions as final authority.Quote:"Wouldn't this mean that the Mormons are right then?"I don't know a lot about what Mormons believe but it is my understanding that their main problem is that they don't believe in the power of the blood of Jesus. And I think Scripture clearly speaks to that error. But perhaps someone else could be of more help here.Quote:"Some of it has got to be common sense."Hmmmm.... :-( Quote:"Maybe a better question to this is, why? Why would angels be blowing on peoples finger tips?"It's just as easy to ask "why not?" Why wouldn't angels blow on peoples fingertips? If they are ministering spirits (#4151 "Pneuma; primarily denotes the wind, related to pneo [4154], to breathe, blow. Breath..."), I don't find it strange at all that they might blow on peoples fingers. Quote:"The 'Holy Spirit' is what I meant"In that case I don't think these things are inconsistant at all. It seems that the Holy Spirit, both biblically and historically, has no problem with doing things that offend peoples minds. He has no problem contradicting people's understanding of Scripture, though He won't contradict Scripture. Quote:"I guess if you want to boil it all down it seems to be a lack of reverence in my opinion."Ok. In my opinion it doesn't seem that way. But who really cares about our opinions? ;-) Quote:"But for Gods sake are we to just sweep these things under the rug? Make concessions for every strange thing that comes along the pike?"Sweep them where you will, in private, but don't speak authoritativly, conclusively, and judgmentally in public based on your opinoins. I'm using "you" here not specific to you Mike. Who are we to close doors God has left open? Talk about lack of reverence. Quote:"I give up. Forgive me."Ok. If you want to continue the discussion I am open to it. If not, ok.

Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one's praise will come from God. 1 Cor 4:5 NKJV

Prophetic thinkingThe Berean thinking is deductive thinking – a process of reasoning by which a specific conclusion necessarily follows from a set of general principles.The Berean thinking is deductive thinking – God is light, with whom there is no variation, or shifting shadow. Berean thinking asks the question, “What does the Word of God imply and mean.”It is prophetic thinking which makes careful research and inquiry seeking to know the time and the circumstances of the Cross and the of glories to follow.It has no hidden agenda.It is straight thinking which does not allow for any interruption or interference by anything which is not aligned to this specific ambition.It is a way of thinking which saves. Truth is an active factor of liberation. The Truth shall set you free.The words of the Lord are pure words, as silver tried in a furnace, refined seven times. It must be meditated upon in prayer which requests revelation. It never lends itself to man’s agendas. It is relevant, it is not religious. God is relevant, He is certainly not religious. His way of arguing is straight lined arguing. If any man is willing to do His will, he shall know. . .The thinking set up over against the Spirit-led pondering upon the Word of the Lord may be called Seductive thinking.It imposes its ideas by seductive means and techniques. Its favourite field of operation is to try to press the Word of the Lord into man’s moulds to support mans religious agendas. It uses the Word to gain support for and to prove man’s ways and man’s thesis. It appears as religious and sensual. It promotes a lustful approach to spirituality. The spiritual becomes a realm of entertainment under its influence.The arguing techniques of the seductive thinking are loaded with contradictions and evasive changes of direction in a line of thought. It uses derogative means to do harm to an exchange of views. It dodges the main point by meaningless excursions. The seductive thinking shuts itself in and stops communicating when caught in its own contradictions. It at times threatens with spiritual suicide if heavily opposed – “you cannot do this to me, it’s unfair, you do not love me, it’s not God’s love. He is kind, the prophetic gifts are for edification.” The seductive thinking is one of the major instruments to defend sin and to allow for the flesh to stay un-crucified. It gathers endorsement for its own way of interpreting the Word, and as much support is secured the new thesis has become “present-day-truth.” The Cross of Jesus Christ sharpens the conflict between true truth and the seductive type. The Cross of Jesus Christ positions a prophetic community in opposition to religious hype.The Cross of Jesus Christ provides a line of division which is sharper than any law, and dictates for any and every man to decide for true life through death.The Cross of Jesus Christ will never lend itself to the establishment of a Jezebelic, seductive interpretation of the eternal purposes of the Lamb, the Lord.Lars W.

The western church is so stuck on itself, so caught up in fables and fortunes, I have lost all respect for it. Look closely at the church in other countries, where it COSTS SOMETHING to be a Christian. They don’t have problems discerning principalities and powers --- they have THE power. They don’t waste time writing books --- they have THE book. They could care less about prophetic offices, prophetic mumbo-jumbo, prophetic prayer breakfasts, prophetic conferences and prophetic pronouncements from rich prophetic super-stars. They have REAL prophets who have nothing…. except scars from their beatings and tortures. REAL prophets who have nothing… except broken bodies from years of imprisonment, starvation, and forced labor. REAL prophets who have nothing… because all of their loved ones, all of their possessions, everything they own or love on this earth, has been taken from them, many times over… because they would not let go of JESUS or deny His Holy Name.hallelujah! Oh to "just" have Jesus!

The western church is so stuck on itself...because they would not let go of JESUS or deny His Holy Name.Demand for teaching in China continues to growBy Ross Paterson, Director DPM-ChinaNew Chinese believers, churches and leaders increase needA sad realitySeveral months ago, I visited a house church gathering in a major city in northern China. I had been invited to join a friend for a meal with the leader of that group. As I met them in the street, I was told, “You are preaching at the meeting tonight”—in Chinese, of course! So much for letting me know in advance!We first ate a meal with the house church leader and his son, which gave me an opportunity to begin to get to know them. Afterward, we went to the meeting in a high-rise apartment block nearby. The Christian brothers and sisters came one by one to the apartment, greeting one another warmly. Forty or more people crammed in together. We then worshiped the Lord and prayed, and after that I shared truths from the Bible.When I had finished preaching, I had to slip away, as I was leaving the city the next day and it was already well into the evening. The leader saw me out of the apartment complex, extending warm friendship. But the meeting was not yet finished, as my friend was still sharing from the Word as I left. The Chinese house churches do not usually approve of short meetings!Some weeks later I met my friend again, this time in Singapore. As we chatted about other matters, he suddenly told me that two days after I left that house church meeting, something very unfortunate happened. The son of the leader with whom we had shared a meal and who had attended the meeting at which I spoke had tried to kill himself. When I asked why, I was told that it was partly because the leader and his wife often had arguments and shouted at each other. Perhaps the son could not handle that and wanted to escape.Does that surprise you—that a leader and his wife in a Chinese house church would have a shaky marriage while still being involved in church leadership? And that their son could take no more and try to kill himself? May I ask you why you think it would be less likely to happen in China than in your country?Ordinary peopleThere is a great danger in the West of seeing the Chinese church through romantic spectacles. When we hear that 100,000 missionaries are in the process of coming out of China to plant churches in the hardest areas of the world in what is called the 10/40 window, we assume they are all spiritual supermen and women—not ordinary people!Exciting things like this cause us to assume that all Christians in China are passionate for Jesus, totally surrendered, amazingly holy and without problems in their lives. We tend to believe that they could not possibly have the same kinds of problems that exist in the church in your country or mine—personal failures, marriage and family problems, and so on. But that is not true.Many Chinese Christians are amazingly passionate for Jesus, but they are not superhuman—they are just like you and me, some of them struggling with problems and needs just like the family I described earlier. Can you even imagine how different your relationship with the Lord would be today if you had never received the right teaching?One believer in China responded to Derek’s teaching by saying, “We seldom have books to help us understand the principles in choosing a job and a life partner, to help us understand life’s problems and how to face difficulties. Please provide us with books that help us to understand the Bible.”End of article.We do allot of work into Africa, and granted there is a mighty move of God happening amongst the people, but what they lack is teaching.It is humbling to see guys who lead churches preaching from one page of the bible, because that is all they have. Then they all meet together and swop pages and so it goes on. These are big capacity chaps, some of them having planted churches that number into the hundreds. But how much scriptural foundation can be laid in a church when all you have is one page for a couple of months. Growing in the grace and the knowledge,

The Berean thinking is deductive thinking – a process of reasoning by which a specific conclusion necessarily follows from a set of general principles.The Berean thinking is deductive thinking – God is light, with whom there is no variation, or shifting shadow.Berean thinking asks the question, “What does the Word of God imply and mean.”It is prophetic thinking which makes careful research and inquiry seeking to know the time and the circumstances of the Cross and the of glories to follow.HI LarsDo you imply by this that there are (at least) two different modes? Are they complementary or opposed?

Ron,I am not sure I understand what you imply by choosing the word ”mode”.This description of two major ways to handle truth has, of course, many implications and is more or less developed by every practitioner.I am by this testing the validity of painting a picture I think I can see in these colours, by strokes of this kind of brush.

I am not sure I understand what you imply by choosing the word ”mode”.Hi LarsI just meant 'modes' of thinking. I wasn't sure if you were advocating one mode of thinking ie 'prophetic thinking' against another ie 'Berean thinking'.

The two major categories would be:1. The Berean thinking – could also be labelled deductive thinking or prophetic thinking.An addition to make here is the much so called old fashioned theological thinking is very prophetic simply because it follows Gods ways in a straight manner.This category is, of course, the one to prefer. The Lord produces an invitation, Let us reason.2. The seductive thinking – manipulative, evasive, and dodging, attributes far away from the clarity and distinctiveness produced by the presence of the Holy Spirit.This second category is far too often displayed and experienced in the sessions held by the modern so called prophets.

1. The Berean thinking – could also be labelled deductive thinking or prophetic thinking.OK I see what you mean in that context. I have have always been uncomfortable when the contemporary 'prophetic' streams tie themselves in to an underlying eschatology. This is my anxiety with the old Manifested Sons 'prophetic'. It emerged again through the Kansas City Prophets and was endorsed by John Wimber with predictions of Europe wide revival beginning in the UK at a specific date; now long in the past. It surfaced again in the UK with The Call, which also fizzled like a spent rocket. These all 'prophesied' a final generation/omega man and attendent ministries which would be greater than any that had preceeded them and would usher in the Lord's coming. This concern is my underlying discomfort with the ministry of Art Katz; it has an eschatological underpinning which leaves me unconvinced, and yet the assumption that such an eschatology is correct is the basis for so much of what is said.I become anxious too when I see revival preached with an eschatological foundation. The teaching of last things is so speculative and yet refusal to sign on the line can exclude folk from evangelical missionary socities. I have, in the past, been involved with leaders who would say 'last year what the Lord was saying to the church was...' and 'this year God's word to the church is...'. These statments leave me stone cold. It is really a hidden arrogance; most of 'the church' is not on the web and doesn't link into the prophetic network. No-one can make a statement that follows 'the church will.. or is' unless they can prove that it relates to the smallest group of God's people gathered under a tree in Malawi or hiding in a cellar in Irag.

philologos wrote:No-one can make a statement that follows 'the church will.. or is' unless they can prove that it relates to the smallest group of God's people gathered under a tree in Malawi or hiding in a cellar in Iraq.And that is what church is for them, truely amazing.It may be that in every situation God needs men of the Isachar type. Who understand the times and know what the right thing to do is.1 Chronicles 12:32

The teaching of last things is so speculative Check!and yet refusal to sign on the line can exclude folk from evangelical missionary socities. I have, in the past, been involved with leaders who would say 'last year what the Lord was saying to the church was...' and 'this year God's word to the church is...'. These statments leave me stone cold.Ditto! It is really a hidden arrogance; most of 'the church' is not on the web and doesn't link into the prophetic network. No-one can make a statement that follows 'the church will.. or is' unless they can prove that it relates to the smallest group of God's people gathered under a tree in Malawi or hiding in a cellar in Irag.Bingo! Well said Ron and the second anyone begins to question it...

todd wrote:Aaron, You wrote:"While [Bickle] accepts this phenonema, Joyner rejects it."Where do you find this? There is a reference to soberness in one of the Final Quest series...will find and get back (may take a while:-)).

This is my anxiety with the old Manifested Sons 'prophetic'. It emerged again through the Kansas City ProphetsAs I learn more about what was going on in the early days of the KC Prophets I find that in the beginning (early 1980's) God had allegedly dealt with Mike Bickle that God was going to send a revival of repentance to this nation by the use of revivalist type ministers as we have come to know the Whitfield's, Wesley's, and Finney's. The revival was to be characterized by holiness of heart, unwavering faith, continual prayer, and extravagent giving to the poor. After several hundred people gathered for 21 days of fasting and prayer many other people started to move to Kansas City from around the nation, some of whom I have personally met in the last 9 months. At some point in about 3 or 4 years everything went crazy. I am told that the enemy had a 3 year plan to take the entire revival out, and take it out he did. We could stop here and argue that a God sent revival would not be thwarted, but God is not willing that any should perish also, yet many do. People, influenced by their own motives, somehow came in and it was all made shipwreck, so I am told.Keep in mind this whole movement went down less than 5 miles from where I lived, roughly, from 1981 to 1992 and I only ever heard 1 story out the place and it was horrendous. My wife attended the Assemblies of God Church right next door (maybe 150 yards away) as a teenager and knew nothing about what was happening there either. Obviously something bad started to happen because a multitude of ministers in this city had to deal with the wrecked lives of people who were messed up after the whole thing went off the road.Now there are many thousands of people that are to some degree or another messed up from it all. When you give a false prophesy to a person it can do some serious damage. People are too infatuated with the supernatural in this movement and are seeking mystical experiences and all sorts of weird stuff in my humble opinion. It is a counterfeit form of revival that makes people thing God is among them, when in reality in some cases the people are entertaining seducing spirits and doctrines of devils. Lies are spoken in hypocrisy by people who cannot cease from sin. The whole term "Prophet" has been blasphemed. As I think about Bro. Ron's etymological reasoning I have to say that the term "prophet" must also have a history. As I read the prophets and their lives they are people who walked close to God and were skilled in His word. God speaks to them in a dream or a vision and calls them to be His mouthpiece. It is not an office that you can call yourself to. Ravinhill said the prophet is a tragic figure. Jeremiah was told to tear down and then plant and build up. These KC prophets wanted to 'plant' and 'build up' but they did not want to tear down. They wanted to perform their own popular agenda- which is exactly what the false peophets did in Jeremiah's time. The degree to which you compromise the message of repentance will be the degree to which you allow the enemy to come in no matter who you are as a minister. The sword has to be uncompromisingly sharp- for the extent to which it is dulled down to tickle ears will be the extent to which disaster looms. As wicked as this generation is I will believe no so called prophet that is not proclaiming repentance crying loud and sparing not! Forget the flakey stuff. Forget the falsehood. We need to hear a mandate- REPENT!

Sweep them where you will, in private, but don't speak authoritatively, conclusively, and judgmentally in public based on your opinoins. I'm using "you" here not specific to you Mike. Who are we to close doors God has left open? Talk about lack of reverence. Nonsense.To point out dangerous assumptions is not authoritative nor judge mental. What is at issue is characteristics and yes 'precedence'. In my opinion...Do a serious study of angels and see if you can extract any character traits that would give any precedence for this 'possibility'. There are principles in scripture that are logical to draw inference from. One of them is 'beware'.1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit says clearly that in the last times some people will abandon the faith by following deceitful spirits, the teachings of demons, 1Ti 4:2 and the hypocrisy of liars, whose consciences have been burned by a hot iron. 1Jo 4:1 Dear friends, stop believing every spirit. Instead, test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2Ti 3:1 You must realize, however, that in the last days difficult times will come. 2Ti 3:2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 2Ti 3:3 unfeeling, uncooperative, slanderous, degenerate, brutal, hateful of what is good, 2Ti 3:4 traitors, reckless, conceited, and lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God. 2Ti 3:5 They will hold to an outward form of godliness but deny its power. Stay away from such people. 2Ti 3:6 For some of these men go into homes and deceive foolish women who are burdened with sins and swayed by all kinds of desires. 2Ti 3:7 These women are always studying but are never able to arrive at a full knowledge of the truth. 2Ti 3:8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men oppose the truth. They are depraved in mind and their faith is a counterfeit. 2Ti 3:9 But they will not get very far because, as in the case of those two men, their stupidity will be plain to everyone. 2Ti 3:10 But you have observed my teaching, my way of life, my purpose, my faith, my patience, my love, my endurance, 2Ti 3:11 and my persecutions and sufferings that happened to me in Antioch, Iconium, and Lystra. What persecutions I endured! Yet the Lord rescued me from all of them. 2Ti 3:12 Indeed, all who want to live a godly life in union with Christ Jesus will be persecuted. 2Ti 3:13 But evil people and impostors will go from bad to worse as they deceive others and are themselves deceived. 2Ti 3:14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and found to be true, because you know from whom you learned it. 2Ti 3:15 From infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures that are able to give you the wisdom you need for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 2Ti 3:17 so that the man of God may be complete and thoroughly equipped for every good workAct 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Act 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Act 20:31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 2Co 11:14 And no wonder, since Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 2Co 11:15 So it is not surprising if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their doom will match their deeds! Don't get the wrong idea, not attempting to use these as 'proof text's' but to simply point out the principle that is inherent.The idea of the Berean's being 'open minded' is also very suspect.Act 17:11 - More noble than those (eugenesteroi tōn). Comparative form of eugenēs, old and common adjective, but in N.T. only here and Luk_19:12; 1Co_1:26. Followed by ablative case tōn as often after the comparative. With all readiness of mind (meta pāsēs prothumias). Old word from prothumos (pro, thumos) and means eagerness, rushing forward. In the N.T. only here and 2Co_8:11-19; 2Co_9:2. In Thessalonica many of the Jews out of pride and prejudice refused to listen. Here the Jews joyfully welcomed the two Jewish visitors. Examining the Scriptures daily (kath' hēmeran anakrinontes tas graphas). Paul expounded the Scriptures daily as in Thessalonica, but the Beroeans, instead of resenting his new interpretation, examined (anakrinō means to sift up and down, make careful and exact research as in legal processes as in Act_4:9; Act_12:19, etc.) the Scriptures for themselves. In Scotland people have the Bible open on the preacher as he expounds the passage, a fine habit worth imitating. Whether these things were so (ei echoi tauta houtōs). Literally, “if these things had it thus.” The present optative in the indirect question represents an original present indicative as in Luk_1:29 (Robertson, Grammar, pp. 1043f.). This use of ei with the optative may be looked at as the condition of the fourth class (undetermined with less likelihood of determination) as in Act_17:27; Act_20:16; Act_24:19; Act_27:12 (Robertson, Grammar, p. 1021). The Beroeans were eagerly interested in the new message of Paul and Silas but they wanted to see it for themselves. What a noble attitude. Paul’s preaching made Bible students of them. The duty of private interpretation is thus made plain (Hovey).Robertson's Word PicturesI certainly don't get the idea that if they couldn't find something in scripture they would accept it, but just the opposite. How much faith do you put in "common sense"? None, I can't put my faith in anything but Jesus and that IS NOT a dig at you brother. COMMON, v.i.1. To have a joint right with others in common ground.2. To board together; to eat at a table in common.SenseSENSE, n. [from L. sensus, from sentio, to feel or perceive.] 1. The faculty of the soul by which it perceives external objects by means of impressions made on certain organs of the boky.Sense is a branch of perception. the five senses of animals are sight, hearing, touch, smell, and taste.2. Sensation; perception by the senses.3. Perception by the intellect; apprehension; discernment.4. Sensibility; quickness or acuteness of perception.5. Understanding; soundness of faculties; strength of natural reason.Opprest nature sleeps;This rest might yet have balm'd thy broken senses. Shak.6. Reason; reasonable or rational meaning. He raves; his words are looseAs heaps of sand, and scattering wide from sense. Dryden.7. Opinion; notion; judgement. I speak my private but impartial sense With freedom. Roscommon.8. Consciousness; conviction; as a due sense of our weakness or sinfulness.9. Moral perception.Some are so hardened in wickedness, as to have no sense of the most friendly offices. L'Estrange.10. Meaning; important; signification; as the true sense of words or phrases. In interpretation, we are to examine whether words are to be understood in a literal or figurative sense. So we speak of a legal sense, a grammatical sense, an historical sense, &c.Common sense, that power of the mind which, by a kind of instinct, or a short process of reasoning, perceives truth, the relation of things, cause and effect, &c. and hence enables the possessor to discern what is right, useful, expedient, or proper, and adopt the best meams to accomplish his purpose. This power seems to be the gift of nature, improved by experience and observation.Moral sense, a determination of the mind to be pleased with the contemplation of those effections, actions or characters of rational agents, which are called good or virtuous.--------------------------------------I am going to stick with the Scriptures. If they leave an open door, I'm not going to shut it. That doesn't mean I'm going to accept everything that comes my way. I may have to reserve judgment indefinately; throw it into the file labeled "mystery" or "?" in my mind.And I can believe whatever I want in private. But I certainly don't trust in opinions as final authority.Believing whatever you want, which of course is everyones 'right', but Todd you didn't reserve that 'right' in private in this case.The crux of this seems to be that one of us is screaming "FIRE!" and the other is saying "What fire?" Maybe we both need to be hosed down...Neither one of us is an 'final authority'.Frankly could care less how "I" am receieved or judged or if this is all mere 'opinion', misconstrued as 'authoritative' or even if this is considered 'judgmental'. This IS in the publics view and if I have to go down in a hail of stones for speaking up to protect the flock from deception and error, to stay away from the same things that took years for me to untangle, unlearn...If erring on the side of caution is 'closing the door', so be it, let the stones fly.Now having said all that, let me add this.I most certainly could be wrong. I am a muddy kind of guy trying to grasp all that there is to this walk of faith. To give mere nice sentiments and disguise them as Christian charity while I harbor anger towards my brother would make me a hypocrite. Being that this is being dissected in front of the public then what needs to be said also needs to be clarified here.Have spoken to Todd in private and see no need to disclose anything that doesn't pertain to this 'discussion'. What I said earlier I meant. I love him as my brother in Christ. By no means is any of this an attack on him personally. Right there is a problem that is unfortunate and likely part of our condition. We can naturally gravitate towards a "I am right, you are wrong mentality" in our dealings with one another or at least that is often how it is seen. And to complicate matters most certainly we add that element unaware and I am just as sure I may have through all this because the emotions get stirred and...Ravi Zacharias has a real good way of putting things I thought in this regard. In a nut shell it's:"In summary, level one concerns logic, level two is based on feeling, and level three is where all is applied to reality."Living an Apologetic LifeReally what it boils down to is a disagreement in what is being said not in the person who is saying it. Without any doubt I know Todd loves the Lord with all his heart as I do and everyone else here (and if you don't...well that's another issue). So if I have in my emotional state slighted you brother, made you to look bad I am sorry and confess it here before all, it was not my intention. It is obvious that I have a particular bent towards protecting which stems out of my own personal experience, likely over do it at times and don't always have time to sort through whether or not I am being 'kind' in how I should approach these things.I am sure if we were able to sit down face to face and open up the scriptures together, work through these things we both could learn much from each other.My apologies Todd, it's not about us.All this does beg the question which seems to lie at the root of much of these modern day 'movements' and the like...What is the proper way of reading scripture? Is it an 'open door' as Todd stated if it doesn't necessarily 'violate scripture'? Or is it logical to draw from principles and precedence that has already been established and go no further? Not trying to make this another argument, nor am I under the illusion that it is all that cut and dry, but what is more prudent?

Wow, thanks Robert.Being this close to it gives precedence over whatever mere speculation we all might have one way or the other.It's the damage, the fallout that is and has always been my concern.

It's the damage, the fallout that is and has always been my concern.Hi Bro. Mike,I met a couple several months ago that are so hurt that they won't even consider coming back to church. They are ultra out-of-Church Christians. As I understand it and heard just yesterday, divorce and depression to the point of suicide is epidemic coming out of this movement. High rates of sickness and death, far beyond what would be considered normal. The case I knew of that I heard years ago involved a woman (a co-workers mother) that was near to loosing her mind over some things. I also heard a traveling street preacher, who said he has been all of the nation and around the world and not felt the opression he feels in Churches and Christians around KC. He was very disturbed at the way Christians walk around and won't even speak to each other, etc. This is not everywhere, but it was alarming to him. This city really needs prayer. God Bless,-Robert

In the realm of the false prophets one does not need to have opinions. Facts are plenty, especially as these persons love to publish themselves in various forms.Buy their books and read. Buy their audio and video productions to hear and see what is going on. Some of us have the possibility to fill libraries with falsehood.It is a tiresome work to go through it, categorise it, make catalogues on its content because the amount coming in is like a river and because the content makes ones heart fall.Much prayer is needed for the ones who are put in place for this work.Lars

Brother Robert,I love you man. God's voice is saying so clearly to me three words "Repent and Believe." If you don't what to repent over take that to the prayer closet and see what the Holy Spirit does.The Lord has graciously given us a season of repentance. Let's not waste the time He has given us. I love what you said here so I'm repeating it since this is a rather long thread.The degree to which you compromise the message of repentance will be the degree to which you allow the enemy to come in no matter who you are as a minister. The sword has to be uncompromisingly sharp- for the extent to which it is dulled down to tickle ears will be the extent to which disaster looms. As wicked as this generation is I will believe no so called prophet that is not proclaiming repentance crying loud and sparing not! Forget the flakey stuff. Forget the falsehood. We need to hear a mandate- REPENT!

My God Robert!I didn't realize it was this bad...And to think I have been just practically to the point of distraction over this whole thing. It's made it difficult to pray, to sort out my own personal assumptions, digest what others have said, look at it all critically, see where I have failed in my zeal...The point isn't in making a point it just comes up out of the...grief pit?O saints we need to pray, please pray about this... all of it.

The Lord has graciously given us a season of repentance. Let's not waste the time He has given us. I love what you said here so I'm repeating it since this is a rather long thread.Again, its not original, but thank God for the guy I got it from.God Bless,-Robert

The point isn't in making a point it just comes up out of the...grief pitThere are a lot of issues to sort out. Prayer is the key. There are people all over the part of town where the Metro Vinyard Church is that have moved here from out of state and are disillusioned. At one time and perhaps even now Keith Green's widow even moved there. That is the level to which it seemed that God was doing a work. The whole Ravinhill preaching here and all that was a very different time than what things came to be. All sorts of people who perhaps came thinking God was going to send a real revival are probably wondering if they believe anything any more. They packed up their whole life and moved here. Some are in finincial disaster as we speak. Prayer is all that will help until God sends a remedy. God Bless,-Robert

Robert,You wrote:"As I understand it and heard just yesterday, divorce and depression to the point of suicide is epidemic coming out of this movement. High rates of sickness and death, far beyond what would be considered normal."Do you really think it's right to spread this here-say? Yeah, I've heard a lot of things that ended up being totally false. And this is exactly how it happens. One person "hears" something about something and then tells another person that they "heard" it and people start believeing it as fact and saying it's true and soon you have a whole fantasy on your hands.Case in point...Mike responds:"My God Robert! I didn't realize it was this bad"As far as the couple you actually met and spoke with, I could maybe see how you might be justified in sharing that, if you really felt it were necessary. But to tag on the rest of that unsubstantiated information seems very questionable.

I met a couple several months ago that are so hurt that they won't even consider coming back to church. They are ultra out-of-Church Christians. As I understand it and heard just yesterday, divorce and depression to the point of suicide is epidemic coming out of this movement. I can relate to this couple and I think there are many of us out there. I have really struggled due to the abuses/unbiblical teachings practices of the 'prophetic/charismatic' movement(struggling not in my faith in Jesus, but concerning fellowship in a local congregation). Thankfully, my Dh and I now attend a great church which puts the Word of God above all and biblically sound marriages are very much an important element of this church---in the leadership as well as the congregation. It's not a perfect church, but absolutely the most biblically based church in our area. What I saw in my previous church(a conservative charismatic church) is the divorce rate is HUGE and I keep hearing of more broken marriages in that church. The senior pastor married a divorced woman (early in his ministry) and another pastor married the woman he had an affair with years ago......His first wife is a member of the congregation... When all this became known to us, we were so grieved. After reviewing the DivorceCare materials used by that church and in so many churches (charismatic and mainstream), we were even more grieved at the state of unbiblical teaching/practices found----especially in the Charismatic/prophetic churches----where most of the time "feelings" are uplifted over the Word of God and rightful discernment. In my humble opinion, I believe these "feelings" led ministries are responsible for many, many broken marriages. Instead of teaching obedience through sacrifice, and the need for continual repentance, people are being taught to be led of the "spirit" into "new" things........., things either completely unbiblical or things which cannot be "tested"----which we are called to do. These "feelings" based ministries are encouraging, whether intentional or not, people justifying disobeying the Word of God----by being "led of the Spirit" over being led by the Spirit which ALWAYS is in agreement with the Word. When people are taught to be led by "inner leanings" over the Word, they are much more apt to be led off on a trail leading away from God's Will. One more word: I have been so blessed to find this place of rest which is filled with discerning believers who are gentle, humble, yet filled with Boldness. I need much work on the "gentle" part, so like I said, this place is a real blessing to me.PS. Lars, your writings on the "seductive" vs. "berean" reasonings are RIGHT ON. In the Body of Christ the goal of each of us should be the "berean" mindset and to purge all "seductive" reasonings from ourselves. It's quite a task as most all of us have indoctrinations of man of one sort or another--- whether we see them as such or not, those indoctrinations are there---unless we have been on an island alone with just the Word of God. Blessings.........

Do you really think it's right to spread this here-say?Brother Todd,Understand, I was very cautious and sensitive to the Holy Spirit to share what I shared as the details I know could not be repeated here. The KC Prophets take a lot of fire, but the people who sat under that ministry are long since forgotten in many cases. My purpose is not to spead hear say and conjecture; but to paint a portrait of what is going on here. These people's stories are those who are the boots on the ground. The young man's mother I spoke of was devastated unutterably. I am not close enough to the movement to tell as I would like and rest assured I would call it like I saw it; yet the original account of what was happening last weekend has even been called to question and has been hotly debated on this thread. If you can't trust Andrew's word, a man who has a much more intimate knowledge of what has and is happening you will never accept my word on it. It matters not. What is happening and has happened, only God knows in completion. God is not a God that covers up as we like to do- He is a God that will expose if there is no repentance. He will shout the sin from the housetops. As Ravinhill said in Judgment Seat; "I know who has a perfect record of them." Again, let the prophets preach repentance. God Bless,-Robert

In the Body of Christ the goal of each of us should be the "berean" mindset and to purge all "seductive" reasonings from ourselves. It's quite a task as most all of us have indoctrinations of man of one sort or another--- whether we see them as such or not, those indoctrinations are there---unless we have been on an island alone with just the Word of God.There are two articles to be written at this point:1. Heavenly sobriety2. Deductive vs. Seductive thinkingPlease, pray. . . Lars

For years I have been taught that many people in the body of Christ are not to be touched as they are God's anointed. But wait a minute, is not Jesus Christ the anointed one? Is He not the one being 'touched' by the falsehood and madness that goes on in His name? Is it not those who cause His name to be blasphemed among the Gentiles who need to be reproved, rebuked and exhorted with all long suffering and doctrine? Were we not warned about those that would come in not sparing the flock? We need to stop defending falsehood and start standing with the Truth. I have had my share of defending many leaders that are now big time on TV and now I wonder what was I thinking? What was blinding me and causing me to overlook so much that I clearly saw happening? Did you know that these men in KC were given an opportunity to repent? A kind and gentle hand was extended to the leadership just last week to lead them gently to see the need for repentance- yet they would not. These things are not happening in a vacuum.

A thorough, gentle operation has been going on for years for the purpose of reaching out to these men and many others, to cause repentance and restoration.The word delivered to us has held the same content over and over again – Do not touch the prophets. They are beyond correction. They are God’s chosen ones. They dictate their own rules, even concerning endorsement and correction.Lars W.

They dictate their own rules, even concerning endorsement and correction.This is true, even when one from 'within' tries to bring correction. That is the scarriest thing. The problem also exists in the fact that people are made to believe they should follow leaders and submit without any real checks and balances. This is extremely dangerous. These men are weilding oratory skills and persuasion we can't imagine.Since Andrew made this announcement it has created a division of sorts, with those who disagree saying "He is speaking from his woundedness" and therefor discounting it all together. Others are saying, there is a serious problem that must be dealt with. Yet others are blaming the enemy for causing division in the prophetic movement. But Jesus did not come to bring peace, but a sword. The sword divides. It divides truth from error. Today is another day as in the days of early Israel- choose ye this day whom you will serve. Who is on the Lord's side? These 'prophets' will not save you in that great day. They will not answer for you either. We shall all give an account of the deeds done in the body. For now, we must earnestly contend for the faith that was once delivered to the Saints. God Bless,-Robert

Mike, You wrote:"To point out dangerous assumptions is not authoritative nor judge mental."It would be one thing if "point[ing] out dangerous assumptions" was all that was being done here. I don't know if you even realize how often you yourself come across this way. I just quickly browsed through some of your previous posts on this thread. Here's just two quick examples: "This is NOT Christianity""If anything it violates the Spirit of scripture, of just how Holy and other God is and just how little is thought of Him and His Son and His Holy Angels who are not flying around blowing on peoples finger tips, that's not silly, that's sick."Do you see it? You are stating things with authority as if they are fact. I do appreciate subsequent comments like "I most certainly could be wrong." But I hope you can see how in the moment it doesn't seem like you are taking that stance (that you could be wrong) but that you know you are right. Like you have absolute confidence. Strom seems to do the same type of thing with such statements as, "The whole movement is sick." And I have noticed others who post here do this as well. I may have done it myself. I think it's a real problem. You're not merely pointing out dangerous assumptions and asking questions. That would be very different. Quote:"Do a serious study of angels and see if you can extract any character traits that would give any precedence for this 'possibility'."Easy. They are divine beings who were created by a God who is love. A large part of their destiny is to help us. But much of the Church has ignored them. This "blowing on the fingertips" thing can be seen as a token of their presence. We could use the help!I get the principle about being aware. Or "beware." And so I am aware of these things. What I refuse to be is paranoid. Quote:"I certainly don't get the idea that if they couldn't find something in scripture they would accept it, but just the opposite." First of all I never said that "if they couldn't find something in the Scripture they would accept it." I said they were very "open-minded" in terms of Pauls "new interpretation" of the Scriptures. Quoting that commentary:"Paul expounded the Scriptures daily as in Thessalonica, but the Beroeans, instead of resenting his new interpretation, examined (anakrinō means to sift up and down, make careful and exact research as in legal processes as in Act_4:9; Act_12:19, etc.) the Scriptures for themselves."And that's exactly what I am saying. They examined it for themselves. They were objective. Examining the Scriptures for myself, I find no grounds to reject the controversial things that this thread was started over.Is there any reason you chose to define those terms "common" and "sense" other then to possibly clarify meaning? Quote:"Believing whatever you want, which of course is everyones 'right', but Todd you didn't reserve that 'right' in private in this case."You're right. In this case I feel it's important to publically question what was publically shared. More of what I was trying to get at there was keeping the subjective subjective and not trying to make it seem objective. Not saying with authority "this is how it is" based on feelings and subjective opinions. Quote:"The crux of this seems to be that one of us is screaming 'FIRE!' and the other is saying "What fire?"Yes, I like that, I think it's pretty accurate. I think a more accurate (though not as catchy) version would be that many are screaming "Ungodly FIRE" and one is saying "Are you sure it's ungodly? Why do you say that?"Quote:"I am sure if we were able to sit down face to face and open up the scriptures together, work through these things we both could learn much from each other."Agreed. Quote:"What is the proper way of reading scripture? Is it an 'open door' as Todd stated if it doesn't necessarily 'violate scripture'? Or is it logical to draw from principles and precedence that has already been established and go no further? Not trying to make this another argument, nor am I under the illusion that it is all that cut and dry, but what is more prudent?"I think you are really getting at the heart of the matter with these good questions. It may be logical to do those things, but is it biblical? It may seem prudent, but what is of greater value- prudence or love? What's more dangerous to you? Lacking love and humility, or not being logical, prudent, and cautious enough?

Quote:"For years I have been taught that many people in the body of Christ are not to be touched as they are God's anointed.""They dictate their own rules, even concerning endorsement and correction.""This is true, even when one from 'within' tries to bring correction. That is the scarriest thing." Obviously some of the most most well-known leaders in this "movement" don't hold to that teaching. I am speaking of Rick Joyner, Mike Bickle, and Jack Deere publically sharing Paul Cain's sin. And this recent case also seems to debunk the second and third quotations above. It seems that the large majority of people who you might consider "in the prophectic movement" agree with what they did and the way they did it. Quote:" They dictate their own rules, even concerning endorsement and correction."In light of the recent Paul Cain scenario, it seems that the rules they dictated were strictly according to the Bible. It started going privately to Paul, then in a small group, and only as a last resort was it made public knowledge. To me this speaks to the integrity of these men.

Joyner, especially, does not want to respond to mild, but serious correction - for example in relation to his occult involvement.Lars W.

by RobertW on 2004/11/8 11:15:46 For years I have been taught that many people in the body of Christ are not to be touched as they are God's anointed. But wait a minute, is not Jesus Christ the anointed one? Is He not the one being 'touched' by the falsehood and madness that goes on in His name? Is it not those who cause His name to be blasphemed among the Gentiles who need to be reproved, rebuked and exhorted with all long suffering and doctrine? Were we not warned about those that would come in not sparing the flock? We need to stop defending falsehood and start standing with the Truth. I have had my share of defending many leaders that are now big time on TV and now I wonder what was I thinking? What was blinding me and causing me to overlook so much that I clearly saw happening? You're quite right Robert. It has been said to me that LOCAL PASTORS should be the ones to counsel people, discuss the meaning of scripture, etc----other Christians should not give biblical advice/counsel/discuss sin issues because it is above their "paygrade"----as if God's Word and the Holy Spirit is not enough to ascertain truth.......The mindset that the SHEPHERD of the flock is the source of all truth---even if in opposition to the Word of God, is quite a scary thing which is going on in ALL of Christiandom. It not only exists in the prophetic/charismatic camp, but can be found in many different churches. I think the "touch not my annointed" is a very manipulative thing being used to keep dissenting views quiet due to the fear of possibly going against the Lord Himself. "judge not lest you be judged" is another scripture widely used to keep people "quiet" ........it's a sad thing that the Lord's Word is used in such a manipulative manner(instilling unbiblical fear to avoid people "testing" all things when addressing error or things which "could be" error). Personally, I am extremely thankful for those who have urged me to "test" all things. It has helped immensely and I have continually found myself changing beliefs as I study those things I thought were true---the things I obtained from men, not from God. Blessings.........

In light of the recent Paul Cain scenario, it seems that the rules they dictated were strictly according to the Bible. It started going privately to Paul, then in a small group, and only as a last resort was it made public knowledge. To me this speaks to the integrity of these men.Hi Bro. Todd,I do agree that based upon the wording that was put forth by these men in handling Paul cain that the procedure was quite biblical. I would only add to that, that when those who profess to possess such light fall into such sin it ought to make everyone wake up and take notice. Here is a man that many consider to be the 'father' of the modern day prophetic movement. Judgment begins with the House of God and in the House of God it begins with those who hold the greatest amount of truth (light) in unrighteousness. Those who are sinning with the most light are the first to be judged in my estimation, because they are the most worthy. It funnels down from there. If the fall of Paul Cain will not bring the prophetic movement to repentance- what will? When a person in a leadership position, whether we consider them legit or not, falls into sin- it should cause everyone around them to take notice. And if I might so say, don't weep for Paul- weep for yourselves and for your children. Weep for the day of Judgment that is coming to try all our works. God is pulling back the covers and there had best not be anything there. He is giving us time to get our act together before He acts I believe. Lest us agree with our adversary while we are in the way with Him. Time is running out. Excuses will not hold water. Genuine repentance is the only hope.God Bless,-Robert

Brother Robert, you wrote;Quote;"The whole term "Prophet" has been blasphemed". Amen, by the devil, and for the express reason that when God finally calls forth His true prophet(s) there's been so much crapola done in the name of the prophet that it makes it easier for all to marginalize the spokesman of God ...Quote;"Ravenhill said the prophet is a tragic figure".Amen again, a person of many sorrows, saved from despair only by an almost unbelievable closeness and communion with our Lord via the unction, Power and Might of the Holy Ghost ... This means that the prophet is subject in their humanity to the highest of highs when the Spirit of God is in specific working upon them, and then to the lowest lows after the deliverance of the drama and or message God wroughts thru them, as the hateful voices of the multitudes, and their own personal fears creep in ... Personally, without their tenacious faith of mantled purpose, their weapon of oft times near blood sweating prayer, and their desperate reliance on the steadying comfort of the Holy Ghost, i think most prophets might be open to a diagnosis of being manic-depressive, in need of tranquilizers ... It has to be God Himself who chooses His true spokesman, because no man would want the mantle of prophet in it's truest vestage ... QUOTE;"Jeremiah was told to tear down and then plant and build up. These KC prophets wanted to 'plant' and 'build up' but they did not want to tear down. They wanted to perform their own popular agenda" ...Not only these KC prophets, but pastors/preachers as well ... So many pastors/churches share a spiritually sick sycophantic relationship ... They keep preaching sugar for mammon, and the congregations keep giving mammon for sugar ... But as we all know a diet of all sugar will make the congregation sick, and the priests seeking after mammon even sicker, as they are God's anointed, and thereby far more accountable to judgment ... Is it any wonder the clash between true prophet(s) and false prophet(s) and priest(s)?Quote;"As wicked as this generation is I will believe no so called prophet that is not proclaiming repentance crying loud and sparing not! Forget the flakey stuff. Forget the falsehood. We need to hear a mandate- REPENT"!Amen a third time, for to me what other message does the true prophet of God have but REPENT! ... i acknowledge to such a mantle and i can tell you honestly i have no other message for saved (especially at this point for the saved), and unsaved alike but REPENT! ... i've made many folk in my proximity sick of the word REPENT! ... i've been asked don't i have anything else to proclaim, but REPENT! ... And i tell them ALL No, for it's the only message the Spirit unctions me to proclaim ... REPENT! ... and then the reasons why He has me proclaiming such a simple, but awe consequenced message to anyone who doesn't heed ...In all spiritual reasoning, backed up by scripture, why are prophets sent in the first place? ... Because the priests, and people of God get so caught up in the ritual, pomp and circumstance of the building, that they completely forget about the Builder ... The true prophet of God is all about the Builder, and what the Builder demands, and what dire consequences will follow if the Builder does not get what He wants ... REPENTANCE! ... and a return of His own Bride back to her first love, Him, and all that pleases solely Him! ... Pure worship of Him in Spirit and in Truth, from bodies presented to Him as living sacrifices, which make up a Holy Nation, and royal priesthood of peculiar folk tried by fire to purest gold!"Lord God, in the name of Jesus, bring forth your foolish to counfound the wise ... Send your Amos class forth, simple laity on fire with your message of REPENT! ... Send forth your Joel's to the priest(s), pointing out the error of their ways, and the benefit of your latter rain if they would simply only get between that porch, and that altar and cry out, travailing in REPENTANCE, that they might call together solemn assemblies to the same, that you may both here and see our sorrow for our groves and high places, and that we will tear them down ourselves, before You tear them down for us! ... Lord God by your Spirit please open up the ears of your people that we all may hear what You are shouting to our stopped up ears ... "\tREPENT! ... REPENT! ... REPENT! ... Amen ...PS - Brother Robert if i lived in your area i think i'd probably be a member of your congregation ... Keep on proclaiming Repentance, as the King of the universe warns, waits and weeps over His own!

Quote:"Joyner, especially, does not want to respond to mild, but serious correction - for example in relation to his occult involvement."What occult involvement? And how do you know he hasn't responded to correction?

I was one of the members of the team confronting him.L. W.

Even the worship had a very "tribal" feel to it at times. And by Day Three they were doing dance items with just loud voodoo-style drums only - and leaping around in a frenzied circle making weird cries to the super-amplified beat. The feeling in the room was so oppressive and "pagan" during thisI was one of the members of the team confronting him.If there is anything the Church needs to be warned about it would be this! Occult involvement is wildly unacceptable. That is idolatry. That is what the leaders were doing (among other things) in Ezekiel 8 when they were worshipping images. An image of jealousy appeared and God started pulling out in the coming chapters. The problem is that the messages get watered down (as Dave Wilkerson points out) because of the sin giving a false sense of the love of God in the services. Couple that with some talented musicians playing some moving music and the people mistake that for the anointing. Almost the whole atmosphere becomes false under those conditions. ************The Sins of the Leaders are Leading Sins-Matthew Henry

Quote:"I was one of the members of the team confronting him."And? What happened? Do you know how many people/groups probably try to confront these leaders on a regular basis? If they attempted to respond to all the critisizm, they probably wouldn't have time for anything else. Clearly they have no responsability to take time with you or to respond to your questions. Right? Did you have an appointment with him? Did you actually get to speak with him in person? How did your team approach the situation and what happened? I am very curious now.Also still curious about the supposed occult involvement.

Quote:"Occult involvement is wildly unacceptable. That is idolatry."Yeah, and clearly those in question are well aware of that. In fact, I've noticed even more awareness concerning the occult in the ministries of some of those in question. Case in point: Rick Joyner wrote a book about one aspect of the occult called "Overcoming Witchcraft."Does that prove that they are not somehow involved in it? No, but it gives reason to look into any accusations deeper. If they are involved, it must be some kind of massive conspiracy and/or cover-up. And I doubt anything truly substantial and conclusive could be brought forth.

Dear Todd,You have, obviously, not been able to read between the lines in my posts.I have worked as a researcher and counsellor for some 25 years with the most complicated types of cases.Our ministry, Intercessors Network, operates in more than 100 nations.It is within this framework of international relations, including many churches and ministries of substantial validity and sobriety which we have formed this team. Joyner, and others, have had the opportunity to listen and to react but have chosen not to.The second part of Strom’s writings on this subject, posted in another thread, provides a list of names which has been under scrutiny and confrontation during a long period, some of them for many years.What can be revealed from this research and these gatherings is the general pattern of thinking, the seductive thinking, the mode of operation such as spiritistic techniques and then presenting the plumb line of Jesus Christ. We do not make a show of our work to entertain minds who are bent for the fantastic. It would be to move in under a category of conduct together with the ones we are confronting.Lars W

"This is NOT Christianity"Correct, it's not... :-) Whether I am 'right' or not or 'know' is besides the point, I am not even sure I know what I want for dinner, but I am hungry.Chris•ti•an•i•ty \\'kris-che-"a-ne-te\\ n : the religion derived from Jesus Christ, based on the Bible as sacred scripture, and professed by Christians (c)2000 Zane Publishing, Inc. and Merriam-Webster, Incorporated. All rights reservedHope you can pick up the inflection here. I am out of gas on all this...The point I am trying make Todd is that it is not our definitions, assumptions or hard and fast rules or opinions, but what God's word states that is all we have to go on. I am not concerned with being 'right' in the sense of "Aha! See! I have been trying to tell you..." Of course some things are secondary and the debates will be endless (Calvinism\\Arminism). Nor is it 'authoritative' coming from this pea brain. And of course a lot of things are our opinions. This is a serious subject and though it hits particularly hard stemming from my own personal experience and still living with the residue that has effected my own loved ones, I certainly don't take myself that seriously, am just a spiritual misfit trying to grasp what is true and what the Lord might be happy to reveal, possibly be of some help.But isn't there some room for emotion? Outrage? If anything that is what you are hearing from me, an emotional outburst..Right, wrong or indifferent.Is everything analyzed to the 'T'? I am not knocking you and certainly don't expect you to agree with everything anybody says. What about the main issue here, the concern that much harm is being done, even if it isn't intentional?I am sure that just as many that are involved in these things love the Lord as well but that doesn't mean that they can not be deceived, misled or even the possibility that they know full well what they are doing. I also realize the defensiveness of not wanting to hear what others may be saying. I reacted much in the same way at first. But as the questions began to gnaw at me it broke down the defense's and humbled me to stop and think, why are these people saying what they are saying? Is it an agenda? Or is it a real concern? Perhaps I need to find out. And strangely it wasn't the calm, cool and collected voices that got my attention but the more emotionally charged ones, thats neither here nor there nor a buttress to my own 'outrage', I think it just caused me to ponder why the voices against these things were so passionate.I came into the Kingdom under a variety of circumstances. Was doing all kinds of sinful activity very well and was newly married to a wonderful women who had that precious presence about her but also was brought up under much of what is being discussed here as well as the Hinn's, Copelands, Hickey, etc. etc. This was my initiation into Christianity. We were huge supporters of Benny Hinn and I was quite taken at first with what I perceived him to be. I really thought that he had Gods power within him and that when he touched people and they went flying or at the wave of his hand that rows of people were 'slain' that he was God's anointed prophet and hung on his every word. It also lent what I considered credibility to all those who were associated with him.At one point we attended a conference for three days to hear the man of God. At one point during the night he suddenly stated, "The Holy Spirit is here!" "Quickly, line up...along the sides" Don't recall what else was said but I asked my wife, "What is going on?" There was a lot of confusion as people started moving about out of their chairs. The ushers had everybody line up along the sides of the conference room (It was at a hotel) facing the wall which I didn't get at all. I held back as my wife was prodding me, "Come on". Something was wrong, there was a check in my spirit and I remember now that it seemed very Jim Jones like, that was what came to mind. I moved rather slowly towards the walls wondering about it all, but soon was able to suppress my concerns and go along with everyone else. The line was to receive the 'anointing' and be touched by Benny or his helpers. There was all kinds of the now usual things being said what is now realized to be manipulation (intentional or not) and recalled that at some point we were allowed to turn around away from the walls. My excitement rose when I realized I was gong to be standing in front of Rex Hubbard. He said something that I don't recall and with great anticipation waited for the 'touch' of the Holy Spirit to 'slay' me, he placed his hand on my forehand and with a slight shove...Nothing. Feeling now uncomfortable and not wanting to embarrass the man he gave a second little push and I just 'went with it' falling back into the arms of the catcher.Now part of the deception was that I "pondered all these things in my heart" and recall actually lying to my wife, telling her later how great it all was being taken down by 'the power of God.' I didn't want to offend her, but it was the first of the red flags that didn't come back up for a long time afterwords. The whole conference was very creepy looking back on it, the outlandish pleas for money "The Lord is telling me that 5 of you are to give $1,000"...A handful of prophecy's, the practical feeding frenzy at the merchandise table...What does this all have to do with what is being discussed here? The original article brought back these and other memories that in a very similar way people are being misled and deceived. The credence given to these so called 'prophets' is dangerous and has been stated, there is spiritual, physical/emotional, financial fallout as a result.It is my opinion that this whole 'movement' is hogwash. How is it that we now have all these 'prophets' saying a multitude of things that cannot be verified by scripture specifically, and at best are extrapolations from them not to mention the fact that accuracy and accountability seems to be something altogether missing.That is really besides the point. The question really is, "Has the Lord really said this?" The fact that this escapes those who promote and let the "Lord is telling me" or "The Lord is saying" come from their lips to their hearers is what I find frightening. The ease with which these things come forth without any serious consideration to the ramifications besides the astonishing and seemingly lack of realization that they are now speaking for GOD or so they think...It is just beyond me. I would be terrified to open my mouth and say those words unless I knew for a fact that what was about to come forth was indeed from the Lord God Himself. We may think these things are from the Lord but to stand up and give them out to people, to our own brethren as statements...I just don't see that any latitude is necessary for giving the benefit of the doubt when so much is at stake.Now the flip side of this would be, am I now advocating the same thing by saying that this is "Not Christianity" or "There isn't angels flying about..."? I will continue to take my chances and warn about all of this. May the Lord deal with me accordingly. But the difference is I never said 'the Lord told me to say so".The last couple of days have found me very agitated about all of this. It sent me into a very spiritually agitated state if I could put it that way. Very grievous over all of this, a crying on the inside... As much as I tried to force my mind to do otherwise it kept coming back to all of this. Prayed the Lord would relieve me from this burden, the confusion, the anguish of it all. Why this compelling to speak up when I don't even know how to articulate it correctly? Who am I Lord? I prayed. But added to that was the offense I was feeling I had given to Todd (If you are still with me here) in being perhaps to sharp or barbed in my comments, making him (you) look bad, that I had injured my brother. That really bothered me. Was I being prideful? Spiteful? Hateful? The sense of "you have gone to far" wouldn't escape me. It was hard to think clearly, my emotions had gotten the best of me and also felt I had grieved the Holy Spirit as even the normal, small sense of His presence had departed.This morning things seem much more clearer and the Holy Spirit it does seem has restored me back to a place of peace and I hope I am now making a bit more sense. I again apologize for any offenses to you my brother and for all the murkiness of my earlier comments to you and anyone else following this rambling discourse.There are many more here who's experience and knowledge of these things are better worth reading and I see now there is a part 2 to this original letter that has begun this whole discussion. I do pray that we all will pray about these things and am glad they are getting exposed to the Light even if they may be troublesome and the motives of those who are concerned are often misunderstood. It seems at the root the goal is restoration, I pray the Lord would lead us into it.*Todd, the comments re: the 'common sense" definition...Yes, just for clarification, wasn't trying to be derogatory.May I add one more? This forum writing has it's own inherent problems sometimes, one of which inflection can be hard to detect, this has been floating through the recess's of the cranium as well, so a couple of quick thoughts;Not every question posed is necessarily a barbed statement. Often it really is just a question.Many of us are 'just lay people' and not especially educated in higher learning.Patience is a virtue.Emotions CAN get in the way...ahem...Charity, love, compassion, mercy... absolutely, but compromise is not truth telling which I believe is what the Lord would have us to do.We are still in the processing plant...Pray.

My excitement rose when I realized I was gong to be standing in front of Rex Hubbard. Right here Bro. Mike, you put your finger right on it and didn't even know it. ;-) Rex Humbard meets E. Ron. Hubbard. A deadly combination. It all began with Rex Humbard and the 750 foot tower in Akron, Ohio he did not count the cost to build. It is still standing as a mockery to the Church. I am told by those who lived near it that it is so well built that it cannot be brought down because the dynamite would destroy a lot of the surrounding area. In 1971, Rex Humbard began building the concrete tower, hoping that it would be the tallest tower in Ohio. It was originally planned to have an observation deck and a revolving restaurant at its peak. Humbard, plagued by financial disaster was unable to finish it.Rex Humbard is deemed my many to be the father of modern day televangelism. I have met people just this year who attended his church. E. Ron. Hubbard is the founder of Dianetics or the Church of Scientology. i read where L. Ron Hubbard once said, "Why write for a penny a word when you can have your own religion?" The Church of Scientology is a very lucrative cult and it boils down to manipulating the people out of their money. I believe it was Rahman who stated that the preachers give the sugar and take the peoples money and the people pay for the sugar (something like that). This is exactly right. The time is now to cry loud and spare not. Devouring widows houses making pipe dream promises that never come to fruition. Controlling people through all sorts of manipulation. Teaching things they ought not for filthy lucre's sake. God have mercy!

Quote:"We are still in the processing plant..."Amen.