For Pastors Only - Special Encouraging Videos

Ministry brethren,

If you are in full-time ministry or a pastor of a church feel free to signup for this service from Times Square church. They give encouraging video and audio snippets to encourage full-time ministers in their ministries with the Lord.

You can signup freely here: http://www.tscnyc.org/forpastorsonly/

Already 1.700+ pastors are registered.

cryinthenite,

For anyone that knows anything about mutuality between brethren, referring to each other as brothers and sisters, this is truly sad.

The list of items is aimed at soley people who have the aim at "full-time" ministry which is different then those brothers and sisters that work a job vocationally and do ministry also.

there is an extra level of discouragment and satanic opposition against those that labour fulltime. that is why they made that resource to encourage people in this.

elenham said

Paul points out that there is indeed a distiction in calling and function for those called into fulltime service and those who are not. Paul gave Timothy certain instruction that were specifically meant for Bishop, Elders or Pastors. He does that same for Deacons. The things that Paul tells Bishops, Elders or Pastors that they 'must' do does not hold true for believers that are not called to that employment.

Paul himself chose to earn his own living, even though technically he knew he had an historical right to be supported solely by the giving of believers.

1 Corinthians 9:13 Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? 14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

AD said

"A credentialed minister"? Chapter and verse for that, please.

That would exclude: Paul, Peter, James, John, etc. and who knows how many genuine pastors and leaders throughout the history of the church.

It would exclude Jesus Christ Himself, the "minister of the Sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord pitched, and not man."

Where did He get His credentials from?

How deeply this Babylonian thing is established in our midst!

...I have the greatest respect for Carter Conlon and David Wilkerson, and Times Square Church. But this leaves me heavy hearted.

What I think is on their hearts, is to enable such ministers who have no experience of 'body ministry', to begin to be included with those who do, in such a way as to bless them all; not to prop up erroneus understandings. Many have known nothing but the 'credtentialed minister' model.

So certain instruction is directed at leaders. It just plain and straight forward to see that when you read Timothy and other passages where Paul is speaking specifically to leaders.

Yes, he is speaking specifically to leaders. My point was, there is no requirement upon a leader to give up his day job. Paul didn't give up his completely.

AD, fair points you make, of course.

The reason 'pastors' often give for not changing to 'body ministry', is that their congregations are too large.

I think there is another difficulty, which is the model which brings the unsaved into the church meeting. This isn't a biblical model either.

It takes a very watchful eye and ear, and the Holy Spirit, to 'manage' the fact that not everyone who wants to share, actually knows the Lord. Folk who grew up in church, also without having been converted, add to the unmanageabilty of that mixed multitude.

'An enemy hath done this.'

Maybe I am misunderstanding what you said.

I thought you were suggesting that everyone who Timothy was to ordain as an elder, deacon or bishop, was to be a full time church worker, who didn't have a day job.

I do realise that some elders are called to be full time, and I realise also that some of those Timothy ordained may have been full time, but this is not clear from the text.

There is no reason to assume that they stopped their day jobs purely because they had been called into a certain relationship with the members of the flock of which they were part.

Has that clarified what was in my mindd?

there is an extra level of discouragment and satanic opposition against those that labour fulltime.

In some ways you are right about the satanic opposition and I will tell you why much of it is brought on by the very nature of this man made ecclesiastical/clergy system.

But, the non-fulltime Christian individual is subject to just as intense spiritual battle if not more. Spiritual battles are not measured by either "fulltime" or "part time" work for the Lord. Spiritual battles have everything to do with obedience to Christ. Being a "fulltime" worker as you say, is not necessarily synonymous with obedience to Christ. And I do agree with the brother or sister that said, "We are all full-time in Christian ministry".

I actually feel sorry for the modern day "Pastor". Why? Because his is a calling that God has not called them to. It does not resemble at all the gifting of pastor in the NT. Today's Pastor is filling a calling that was made by man and it is made to direct men, to administrate men and sadly to please men.

God does not call anyone to be OVER anyone. And God does not call us to be IN CHARGE of His Church. That has brought us problems in the past and still does. There already is One who is in charge. His name is Jesus Christ.

Funny how the concept of Jesus Christ is great for apologetics, and He is real good for Evangelism, and especially good for worship. But tell someone that Jesus Christ wants to lead a meeting and they will look at you dumbfounded. Yep, dumbfounded. You see, they have been using the concept of Jesus Christ for various activities in their church life, but in all of it, man is definitely in charge. So when you say, let's get together and let the Lord start the meeting, propel the meeting and end the meeting, they think you have gone bonkers. That is not how they have been trained in Bible School. Men have been trained to run the whole show, provide all the answers to the sheep, minister to their every need and provide direction for them. They have been certified. They have a degree.

I clicked on the link and found these curious statements:

"There seems to be a need for spiritual encouragement among ministers today...

If you are:
A minister in charge of a church.
>

A leader having recognized pastoral care over a group of people.
>

A credentialed minister currently without a congregation.
>

A Bible college student or minister in training.
>"

There is not to be any one man or group of men who are tasked with being "in charge" of hundreds or thousands.

Do you want to know why those in professional paid ministry have such a tough time? Why they seemed to be attacked with such an onslaught of the powers of darkness?

It is because they have set themselves up above the people of God (only one person should be there) and the people of God have been trained implicitly or explicitly to looke to them. Since they are paid from the church payment (tax/tithe) system the people want to see something for their money. Does that sound unspiritual? Well, it is the system than man has made by borrowing ideas from the Bible and from the world. When you have these "Pastor Only" gatherings you are perpetuating man's system.

Here are some reasons that there is so much pastor burnout in the worldly, religious, unscriptural church.

Number 1: They are trying to maintain a calling and position that is not in the Word of God, at least not the way it is described and walked in today.

Number 2: They have to work hard to maintain their position "above" the sheep. Your link says "over a group of people", so that means the pastor is above them.

When you try to maintain a position, job title, employment, or whatever you want to call it, you cannot preach the whole counsel of God's Word. WHY? Because you would have to step down from your pulpit and take a seat as a brother with the brothers. Or, on the other hand, if you preached the whole counsel of God, your congregation just might up and leave and start meeting in homes instead of paying the big church mortgage, paving the parking lots, coming to the MAN every Wednesday and Sunday to be spoon fed and paying salaries of people that are doing things that the common everyday brother and sister can and should be doing.

There are house churches today, with elders who work fulltime jobs. We are way off track, today. We have given special status and privileges to a handful of men (relatively speaking) over a multitude of people.

Number 3. No one has any special status or special calling except Jesus Christ. And whenever you take His place amongst His people you will not be blessed with peace. I repeat, you will not be blessed with peace.

Number 4. When you elevate yourself above the brethren and set yourself up as the Pastor (Shepherd) of the sheep, you are implicitly telling everyone that if you don't have the answer for their troubles you know where to get the answer. Therefore, everyone is always looking to you for answers. You don't want it that way, but by virtue of raising yourself up above the brethren, it just happens that they look to you. They depend on you.

Number 5. People are paying you (tithe = payment system = to meet the monthly budget = not living by faith) and expect you to listen to their requests.

Now, here is where the powers of darkness really get involved. When you have many people in your "church" looking to you and paying you a salary, they have certain expectations of you just as you have certain expectations of them. And this is where you get pulled and tugged in many different directions. And you find yourself wanting to please some people (the big tithers) and it is just impossible to please everyone. Then the ones you can't or don't please get offended and will be upset with you because they don't think you are being fair. And the truth of the matter is that they are right. You are not being fair. It is impossible to grant everyone's request isn't it? You want to be fair but find it hard to turn down the big tithers, because, afterall, they pay your salary.

And you take all of this home and you cannot get it off of your mind (the offended people) and it wreaks havoc in your marriage, and your kids wander away from the Lord because they see what a hypocrite you are when you talk about the church members and get angry with them. Yet, your kids always hear you preach about the fruit of the spirit to your congregaion.

So all these "curses" are always coming at you from the congregation and it gets to the point where you just want to hang out with the staff. When you have get togethers at your house, you invite the elders, the worship team, the assistant pastor, because afterall, they understand you and what you are going through. You have great fellowship with the church staff, but never invite any of the people that "complain" or wish something was done another way, over to your house, or to a picnic or TO A MEETING FOR PASTORS ONLY.

This is what we have done today. We use the Bible and the concept of Jesus Christ to create our own neat little religious system that we can make a living at. And everything would be just great if everyone would stop complaining and just do what I say. Ahhhh, that would be the good life. We would really get some things done for the kingdom of God, now!

Well, Pastor, let me tell you something. Generals in armies are allowed to order their men around and tell them what to do. Their men will carry out their orders and even die for their General. The men cannot talk back or be insubordinate and must carry out all the General's orders.

Is this how you would like your church members to act?

Just do what I say? Afterall, I have been trained in the best seminary and graduated at the top of my class. I am eloquent, my sermons are grammatically correct and carry the best punctuation and I always 2-3 really good stories to make you laugh and put you at ease. I have been complimented many times by some of the most influential men that no one can preach like me. My people are proud to call me their pastor because I do not embarrass them with my lack of education and etiquette. This is why I am above you, if you must know, now take a seat and listen to the Word of the Lord.

You know people, you are so close to the forest you cannot even see the trees.

This is not the way it is in the NT. It does not surprise me at all that Institutional Pastors are dropping left and right. It is their system, they created it but it only works if ALL the people pretty much stop reading their bibles and just listen to the Man (the pastor). And when that does not happen, there is no end of problems to the Pastor. There ends up being a love/hate relationship between the pastor and the sheep. The pastor does not want to hang out with the sheep, but the sheep would like to hang out with the pastor. But that does not happen very often. The Emperor really has no clothes (meaning the present religious system). Start reading your Bible and get free from the fear of man and you can see through all of these man-made shenanigans.

This explains why there are over 15,000 church splits a year and 400-500 pastors burning out and leaving the "ministry". Actually, that is a good thing. God has to grind us down until we stop everything and start to see things His way.

Now, doesn't the Bible say, "How good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity"?

Being with the brethren is suppose to be a place of rest and repose. So why do Pastors have to take off and be with other Pastors? Why can't he receive mutual beneficient fellowship and ministry from the brethren that he is in fellowship with? Because there are too many unhealed offenses and hardening of hearts.

So, if the light within us is darkness, then how dark is that light? In other words, where is the pleasantness of dwelling with brethren? Where is the rest and repose of being with the Church with Christ in it's midst. It's not there! You cannot find it in man's system where church splits are in the thousands and pastors actually stay away from their sheep (pastor them from the pulpit, but no intimate fellowship).

May the Lord help us to see Him as not just a concept to use in building our kingdom, evangelizing, apologetics, or even using Him for worship. May He help us to see Him as REAL and ALIVE in our midst, leading, guiding, ministering and sustaining His Church by HIS LIFE. And may we see the mutuality of all brothers and sisters and understand that God has given us all a heart to know Him, a heart to house Him and a voice to extol Him in the midst of the congregation.

I made a small correction but it has great meaning.

I erroneously said that "his is a calling that God has called them to" and meant to say "has not called them to".

The church has become so perverted in it's form that it resembles a multi-level marketing scheme today. Even in the smallest of churches because they all use the same methods of man to "be in charge" of the church and "run" things. Their payment system of the tithe which excuses them from living a life of faith for instance. Actually, they have convinced the congregation that they are living by faith, by reporting the churches financial needs on a regular basis and then saying "by faith, we believe that we will meet this months budget". Such a sad, sad, sham.

Pastor, it would be best if you stepped down, be a brother, get a job and feel better about yourself and your christian walk. Be a father to your kids and a husband to your wife and stop trying to take the Lord's place in the midst of His people. And most of all, be at peace with your brothers and sisters and enjoy the unity of the spirit.

You see all these problems come when someone wants to elevate themselves above God's people and be in charge.

Read Ezekiel 34. I think all this burnout of pastors is judgement from God just as He talked about it in Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel. This is the wind of destruction that the Lord talked about that He would bring against the shepherds.

There is something wrong when Pastors can't just meet with their own brothers in Christ in their own fellowship and get refreshed in the Lord.

Also, I have notice that you are very much against one man over another man

So is the Lord, my friend, so is the Lord.

I believe that we must be more aware of edifying others and the effect of ministering Christ to everyone without appearing to be superior in our knowledge over others.

If I appear to be, I think it is your perception. Writing text is not the best form of communication as you cannot hear the tone of my voice, hear the inflections in my voice or see the expressions in my face. So, I am not quite sure what you mean by that, but maybe you wonder how I know some of the things I spoke about.

I have been part of the inner circle of leadership in a large church. I was a pew sitter for awhile and then one day I was asked to be an elder. All because I had been to Bible School. Isn't that ridiculous? I was 32 years old at the time and single. Isn't that ridiculous? I did not see it that way at the time. I was flattered yet would not admit that to myself and chose rather to deceive myself by thinking that I was chosen to be an elder (even though I was unmarried and young) because I was spiritual. Isn't that ridiculous!!

Anyway, yes, I do know the Word somewhat, but not as much as you give me credit for and not as much as I would like to know it. Anyway, once I became part of the staff, I started getting invited to "get togethers" and picnics and parties that I never knew existed when I was just a pew sitter. I noticed that everyone that was invited to these functions were part of the staff or were big tithers. And they had great fellowship and were very happy. There was lots of good food, good fellowship, and a lot of laughter.

I was elder over the Sanctuary Ministry. I had about 110 people UNDER me. The Ushers, Hostesses, Greeters, Bible Store people, Sunday School teachers, etc. I had a great relationship with MY people (how funny to even think of it in that way).

And guess what? By being an elder I was part of Pastor/Elder meetings once a week. Yes, I got to see how the machine was fueled and tuned and kept running in tip top shape. I sound sarcastic, because I am trying to be, Paul used the same technique in Galatians.

You see, I was a pew sitter for about 18 months and came to know many of the regular, common people who were just like myself. They were my friends and I cared about them and I believed the best about our leadership.

My first personal awakening was at all these parties, functions and get togethers. I was treated as a very important person, but I never saw any of the non-staff members of the church, unless it was a whole church function. Of course the large tithers that were not part of staff were always invited. In fact they threw a lot of the parties and seemed to want to schmooze with leadership on a regular basis.

My second awakening was at one of our elder meetings when the pastor was discussing our accounting system and how he wanted to see the tithe report on his desk first thing Monday morning. Everyone member of the church (you have to go to new members class and become an official member of our church) is given 52 envelopes. One for each Sunday of the week. Each member has a number assigned to them so that when we count the money on Sunday (we begin counting even before church service is finished) we just key in the number on the envelope and the amount given and it is cross-referenced to their name in the database. This way, the Pastor has a tithe report on Monday morning with not just the Total amount "taken in" the previous Sunday but itemized by individual's name.

I was becoming disgusted little by little. You see, I did read my Bible back then and the things I saw being done in secret (elder/pastor meetings) would never have been shared with the congregation.

The third thing that affected me was that we took in a pretty good amount each Sunday and I also remember the Pastor would bring someone up to the front of the church once in awhile and in front of everyone, "on behalf of the church and the leadership", this family would be given about 4-5 sacks of groceries. It came from the Benevolent ministry. I thought it was tokenism and patronizing at it's worst.

The Church was in the Pastor's name, his wife's name and their best friend's name (who was also a successful and well to do lawyer).

The Pastor would sometimes have work done at his house (Church Parsonage) and would "invite" members of the congregation to help him remodel. Money was arbitrarily taken from the church treasury by the Pastor to remodel his house, his pool, by a car, etc, etc. And he never thought to ask anyone (elders) about using the church treasury as his personal bank.

And finally, in one of our elder meetings, I mentioned to the Pastor how the Lord seems to really bless us financially (he nodded his head approvingly and I paused). I then indicated to him that there are many in our congregation that live in run down apartments in a bad part of town and couldn't we help them out financially and move to a better part of town? Before he could say anything, I asked him if we could help people improve their job situation by helping them out financially in sending them to a trade or technical school. If we cannot pay it all, it would be nice to help them get started and match 50% or so.

Let me tell you something...if looks could kill...the way he looked at me when I mentioned the MAMMON, I would be burnt toast.

Well, that is all I had to see. The look on his face and he did not try to conceal his displeasure with me. Even the 3 other elders saw it.

You know what the Lord told me to do? Leave quietly. Don't say anything to anyone about what I knew or what I had seen. You see, causing a church split even if you are in the "right", is demonic, wisdom from below and not above.

So, I left man's system. It was 1988 and I have never been back.

I am not against any man. I am not against David Wilkerson or any other Christian personality. I know that they are victims of the religious machine. I don't care how you cut the cake, I know what it takes to feed this thing and make it run. I am also not likening them to the pastor in my experience. I have no knowledge of what other men do. I only have knowledge of what the system demands and how the system can corrupt a man's heart.

I do know that Pastor's will want to meet with other Pastor's because there are things they will share with each other that they would dare not share with the congregation. tThey also network and get ideas from each other for "doing church better".

If a normal everyday pew sitter like me got wind of some of these things they might, just like I did, LEAVE.

It is just the nature of the religious machine, rbanks. I am not pessimistic, but rather realistic. God tells us all of these things in His Word. It is right there for all to see. He tells us about the nature of the religious system and what it does to use men.

Today, I am just a brother amongst brethren. There is some security in being low-key and not having any titles. There is also peace. We have several in our fellowship that have shepherd's hearts. We care for each other and shepherd each other and no one is in charge of anyone. No one is named or titled Elder or Pastor. Because we know that these are not titles or positions. They are giftings. We as brothers are not suppose to have a "position" over another or a special status over others. When you know each other in your fellowship in a very close way, you just know organically who the senior saints are. I say "senior", but don't get me wrong. I am not talking about RANK. I am talking about spiritual maturity.

Rbanks, I truly feel sorry for so many in the religious pastorate, but I know they have to come to a dead end like I did, before they can start really listening to the Lord. I don't envy them and I know they have a job that I would not wish on anyone. But, man created this system (as Satan whispered his plans in their ear). Yes, it is a Satanic system. Does God use it? Well, I know that His Word does not return void. It is His Word that bears fruit if it is received in faith by the hearers. But, God does not use man's methods or need man's methods.

It is a relief to not have to defend or protect anything such as position or title or spiritual paycheck. It is great just to be a big ZERO and let God be everything.

Too many Pastors today have taken upon themselves false burdens that the Lord has never put on them. It's tough when you try to do a job that only God can do.

I know there are people out there with hearts of true shepherds. It is a shame that they try to live out their calling hand in hand with the religious system.

I believe we should be careful how we criticize or judge our brethren because the same judgment we use will be measured back to us.

What do you mean, specifically? Christians always use phraseology when things start to get a bit too real.

Servanthood has somehow become "leadership" today.

"Those in leadership OVER the sheep are going to have a weekend conference together so that they can be ministered to."

So they can learn to be better leaders over the sheep.

If anyone out there is reading their Bible, do you see how strange this statement is?

mguldner you are so very right. Also, the elders in the NT were very low-key. They did not take the best seats, or lord over the flock. How do you lord over God's flock? You put yourself in a position to be in charge of them and instead of Jesus being the Leader you are the leader.

I know a friend who heard a "Pastor Jim" introduce himself to a 5 year old as "Pastor Jim". My friend said, "Come on Jim, give it a rest, he's only a 5 year old".

I never see Paul or Peter or any of the disciples referring to each other as "Pastor". Even in the Old Testament, David and others were not called Shepherd David.

Would it not be tremendous if a high profile "Pastor", stepped down from his pulpit and took a place along side the brothers and repudiated publicly the clergy/laity system?

People have been trained to receive, to be spoon-fed, that if their leader stepped down, they would not know what to do. It is not just the Pastor's fault. Just like I have quoted in Samuel many times about Saul, people want a King over them. Unfortunately, it is not Jesus that they want.

Here is Paul, writing about some "pillars" in the church. Is he calling them by any title?

Gal 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

You see, when we call people by titles, that is tantamount to elevating them above others. And you are then implicitly telling all the young people that come into the congregation that the people with titles have a big Jesus and the people without titles have a little Jesus. And this mentality is the fertile ground for taking advantage of people and being taken advantage of.

And the Lord knows this all too well. Read the following picture of spiritual abuse.

1Sa 8:6 But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD.

1Sa 8:7 And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

1Sa 8:9 Now therefore hearken unto their voice: howbeit yet protest solemnly unto them, and shew them the manner of the king that shall reign over them.

1Sa 8:10 And Samuel told all the words of the LORD unto the people that asked of him a king.

1Sa 8:11 And he said, This will be the manner of the king that shall reign over you: He will take your sons, and appoint them for himself, for his chariots, and to be his horsemen; and some shall run before his chariots.

1Sa 8:12 And he will appoint him captains over thousands, and captains over fifties; and will set them to ear his ground, and to reap his harvest, and to make his instruments of war, and instruments of his chariots.

1Sa 8:13 And he will take your daughters to be confectionaries, and to be cooks, and to be bakers.

1Sa 8:14 And he will take your fields, and your vineyards, and your oliveyards, even the best of them, and give them to his servants.

1Sa 8:15 And he will take the tenth of your seed, and of your vineyards, and give to his officers, and to his servants.

1Sa 8:16 And he will take your menservants, and your maidservants, and your goodliest young men, and your asses, and put them to his work.

1Sa 8:17 He will take the tenth of your sheep: and ye shall be his servants.

1Sa 8:18 And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the LORD will not hear you in that day.

1Sa 8:19 Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, Nay; but we will have a king over us;

1Sa 8:20 That we also may be like all the nations; and that our king may judge us, and go out before us, and fight our battles.

Hi Pilgrim,

Thanks for sharing some more of your testimony. It's wonderful that you've being joined by the Lord to a body of believers who take the Bible seriously.

Some time ago, Brothertom urged me to 'RUN' from the church I was attending. The handling of money was only one of several distressing factors which prompted me, finally, to heed his advice.

There have, in the past on SI, been many discussions about Bible translations. Out of them all, I have retained two key pieces of information. 1) the versions may vary according to which manuscripts were used; 2) the word 'office' (as in office of a bishop for intsance) is not in the Greek from which the KJV was translated. Such tiny differences were made in deference to the king and the law of England as it was at the time.

mguldner said

Elders were also men that knew the flock and its various gifts, for such an instance I know very little about fixing a car so me in my ignorance would go to one of my elders and tell them of the delemma and they may not know how to fix it however they would have the ability to point me to someone that could.

Elders can only identify the spiritual gifts that have been given to individuals, if those individuals are free to use them when the body is assembled.

I heard a very interesting conference address on the gifts, and the speaker noted that there is bondage for those who have gifts, who are told to use them privately. This is not the context given in scripture, which should be the context we espouse.

There is one other general point to make about 'oversight', which is perfectly established in Acts 20:28, namely, that it is GOD who gives it to those whom He can trust with such a responsibility; not because of their learning (necessarily), but because of their LOVE. Their love for Him, for their brethren, for truth. How will He know they love Him? Because they keep His commandments and they are available to Him night and day, to do His bidding.

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

A great example of shepherds in action, is the night the angels were sent to the shepherds in the field. They were 'watching over the flock BY NIGHT'. What's interesting about this also, is that to do so, they had all the sheep in one place - together.

There is something the sheep of His pasture today, ought to be able to learn from this picture, and how we are to respond when shepherds call us to obedience and unity.

Regarding David Wilkerson, it is quite a few years now, since he stopped renewing his 'credentials' with one of the major denominations. However, being able to show when he was younger and less known, that he was 'credentialed', enabled him to turn up in emergency situations and gain access, so that he could serve the people in immediate need. Being able to carry formal identity as a 'minister', was something God used.

Also, it enables men who have no other 'employment', to travel internationally, with a 'man of God' label. This of course, is a double-edged sword, and there is some safety these days in having another 'profession', as 'man of God' will keep you OUT of some countries. Let everyone be fully persuaded in their own mind, how God wants to prepare them to be a preacher.

I think Paul Washer makes a good observation in one of his addresses, that what one learns in Bible College, (of Greek, and exegesis etc) equips you to CONTINUE studying, after you leave. He rejects the notion that once you've left college, you've learned enough to last the rest of your ministry.

Sheep who find themselves being poorly shepherded know that that's what's happening, and yet, they can easily be bamboozled into accepting the dross which is passed to them as food, because they do NEED a SHEPHERD. I don't lay all the responsibility at the feet of leaders who know they are lost, selfish, ungodly (etc), because the sheep who sat under them will also have to answer for why they stayed.

Our house church had a get together this past Friday and it was basically a potluck and fellowship. In about 30 minutes we have our usual Sunday get together.

Anyway we had a visitor from another house church eat and fellowship with us an I know him. He was telling me that 5 families left their house church over a doctrinal issue. asked him what it was. He said it was about submission. Woman not talking in meetings. I told him that was a patriarchal spirit fueled by fear. He indicated that families that were pro-submission and anti-submission left. Some did not think they were pro-submission enough.

They have a "leader" by the way. We do not. Our leader is Jesus and that is not just a trite saying. Well, their leader does not even want woman to share in their meetings because he is worried (fear) that it might turn into a teaching to men.

So, instead of addressing issues one at a time, they take a broad brush stroke and shut down all the women.

May I remind people, that they miss a portion of Christ when they shut down women that have the Holy Spirit, too.

Anyway, this house church has men's meetings on Monday and they gather as a group (men and women) on Sundays. I told this brother, that basically you have men's meetings on Mondays and Sundays. Even though women are with you on Sunday it is a men's meeting because you have shut the women down.

These are men that are fearful, in my opinion. We appreciate the spirituality of our women and the richness of Christ that comes forth from their lives.

I was very distressed over this and told him about the Patriarchal movement that is resurging in America. Funny, how Patriarchy had a resurgence in Iran and it was directly linked to politics. The muslims wanted to depose the Shah and get their theocratic government back. Same way in the U.S., dominionist Christians, who are strongly involved in "getting back America for God", are also the ones pushing Patriarchy.

So, you see, not all house churches are created equal and they often duplicate the "king" mentality of Institutional churches where one man is in charge and what he says goes.

Our mature brothers and sisters in our group are very low key and visitors would never be able to point out who the "leaders" are.

Sometimes we seem to be easy pickins for visitors that want to exercise control and authority but Jesus always protects us. We know His voice and another we will not follow.

It does not really matter what they do. We are just using the whole idea of "Pastors Only" as an example of what the Church of Jesus Christ is not.

I certainly am not trying to change anyone and even if I were trying, it is vain and hopeless and not of the Lord.

You don't try to sanctify man's methods or man's system.

So this whole thing is just a living example of what you do not do. They will continue to do what they want. It is the nature of their structure and system.

It is not something anyone should lose any sleep over. Just don't repeat their methods in your fellowship. Be inclusive of all brothers and don't segregate or isolate others.