Please pardon the simplicity of this question; there is much of the scriptures I still need to learn. Do the promises God made to the nation of Israel carry over into the new covenant?
I believe Paul said there is 'no Jew or gentile' in Christ.
So my question is, is there any scriptural basis for viewing the modern state of Israel as any different from any other state in the world system (with respect to favor of God etc)?
ET101,
Oh, without intending to, you've just opened a hornet's nest, my friend! LOL
There are two camps, maybe 3 or 4 camps and they all believe something diametrically opposed to one another!
On this issue as well as with all the other issues... read everything with a grain of salt.
God bless you and pray for your own answers!
Lisa
No different.So my question is, is there any scriptural basis for viewing the modern state of Israel as any different from any other state in the world system (with respect to favour of God etc)?
Remain confident in the fact that there is neither Jew nor Gentile, Bond or Free, but all are the same in Christ.
The confusion will come when you get answers that say the opposite.
The name "Jew" today and the state of Israel is not the same as the ancient people's that God called, "His chosen people". Many Christians have tried to squeeze them into some future hope for the Jews, but their hope is in the past and like any other person are required to believe in the name of Jesus Christ and what He accomplished on the cross for the redemption, not only for the Jew first, but to all that call upon the name of the Lord.
The straw man argument is: There is no Jew or gentile in Christ and this somehow negates God's promises to the the nation of Israel.
This scripture is in not referring to God's promise to his people Israel
It is opening the way of salvation to all who would believe, Jew and Gentile.
You need to throw much of the Bible in order to get around
God's promises to the nation of Israel.
Or you can twist the the scripture to saw whatever you like it to say.
Modern Israel is very much part of the plan.
Scripture would be nice right about now. ThanksModern Israel is very much part of the plan.
As snufalupacus said,
Scripture would be nice right about now. Thanks
Why would we need to 'throw much of the Bible'?It is opening the way of salvation to all who would believe, Jew and Gentile.You need to throw much of the Bible in order to get around
God's promises to the nation of Israel.
Are you suggesting God DID NOT KEEP HIS PROMISES to (the nation of) ISRAEL so far?
Personally, I prefer to separate the people from the land. If you think back to their history, God frequently separated the people from the land, to try to get their attention.
Now some of them have 'land' again, they are intent upon building another Temple. Sounds sadly like history repeating itself.
Does the Land of Israel Belong to
the Jewish People?
Sixteen Biblical Facts you Can't Ignore
by Messianic Rabbi Loren Jacobs
Congregation Shema Yisrael, Southfield, Michigan
Two peoples claim the same land in the Middle East. Whose land is it? Who is right: Israel or the Palestinians? Does it belong to both peoples? Who has the right to decide to whom the Land belongs? Israel? The Arab League? The United States? The United Nations Security Council? The United Nations General Assembly? How should it be decided? By the Koran? By the various competing claims of history? By voting? By war? When the Word of God speaks authoritatively on any subject, that is the final word. God has much to say about the Land and people of Israel in His supernatural revelation, the Bible, which is the very Word of God.
Fact #1. The Jewish people are the Chosen People: After Adam and Eve sinned, humanity deteriorated so badly that God destroyed the early world of men with the Great Flood. Noah and his family knew the Lord, and were spared, but after they came out of the Ark and started repopulating, their descendants abandoned God, became idolatrous, perverse and evil. Then God created a special nation to be a light to the other nations. The Creator of the universe specifically chose the nation of Israel to be that unique people who would witness to His reality. "For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the people who are on the face of the Earth" (Deuteronomy 7:6).
"You are My witnesses," declares the Lord, "and My servant whom I have chosen, in order that you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, and there will be none after Me. I, even I am the Lord; and there is no Savior beside Me" (Isaiah 43:10-11). If the Chosen People were faithful to our calling, God promised to bless us above all the other nations, so that the nations of the world would know that the God of Israel is the true God who alone can save us, by reconciling us to Himself, thereby restoring us to peace, joy, blessing and life. But if we were disobedient to our calling, the Lord promised to severely punish us so that the nations of the world would learn a lesson from us, and know that it is a terrible thing to disobey the God of Israel. Either way, through our obedience or disobedience, the Chosen People would witness to the other nations of the world that the God of Israel is to be reckoned with.
Fact #2. The Land of Israel belongs to God: "The Earth is the Lord's and all it contains, the world and those who dwell in it" (Psalm 24:1). Since the entire world belongs to God, He has the right to apportion it as He chooses, and He specifically gave the nations their lands based on the Jewish people's right to the Land of Israel! "When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance, when He separated the sons of man, He set the boundaries of the peoples according to the number of the sons of Israel. For the Lord's portion is His people; Jacob is the allotment of His inheritance" (Deuteronomy 32:8-9).
Fact #3. The Chosen People needed a Chosen Land, and so the God of Israel strategically chose the Land of Israel for the People of Israel: "This is Jerusalem; I have set her at the center of the nations, with lands around her" (Ezekiel 5:5). The Land that God chose for us is located in the center of the nations, connecting the continents of Europe, Africa and Asia. Because of this strategic location, the Jewish people had ample exposure to all the nations of the world.
Fact #4. The Land of Israel was given by God to the descendants of Abraham as an everlasting possession: "The Lord appeared to Abram and said, 'To your descendants I will give this Land'" (Genesis 12:7). God further said to Abraham: "I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you. And I will give to you and to your descendants after you, the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession" (Genesis 17:7-8).
Fact #5. Even though Abraham had many sons, the Land of Israel wasn't given to Ishmael, or to any of the other sons of Abraham, but only to Isaac: "Abraham said to God, 'Oh that Ishmael might live before You!' But God said 'No, but Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him'" (Genesis 17:18-19). God rejected Abraham's request that Ishmael be the heir of the covenant, and appointed Isaac instead. Years later the Lord God appeared to Isaac and said, "to you and to your descendants I will give all these lands, and I will establish the oath which I swore to your father Abraham. And I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven and will give your descendants all these lands; and by your descendants all the nations of the Earth shall be blessed" (Genesis 26:3-4). Knowing that Isaac was the heir of the covenant, which included the Land of Israel, Abraham gave all that he had to Isaac. He gave gifts to his other sons, but he sent them away to the lands of the east, not wanting the heir of the everlasting covenant to have rivalry over the Land of Israel from his siblings (Genesis 25:5-6).
Fact #6. Even though Isaac had two sons, the Land wasn't given to Esau, but to Jacob: One night Jacob had a dream while fleeing from his brother Esau. In his dream the Lord said to him, "I am the Lord, the God of your father Abraham and the God of Isaac; the Land on which you lie, I will give it to you and to your descendants." (Genesis 28:13). God later appeared to Jacob and said to him, "the Land which I gave to Abraham and Isaac, I will give it to you, and I will give the Land to your descendants after you" (Genesis 35:11-12). This promise deeds the Land of Israel to the descendants of Jacob - the Jewish people of today.
Fact #7. There is no doubt about Israel's God-given borders because they are described for us in detail in the Holy Scriptures: "The Lord said to Abram after Lot had separated from him, 'Now lift up your eyes and look from the place where you are, northward and southward and eastward and westward; for all the land which you see, I will give it to you and to your descendants forever... Arise, walk about the land through its length and breadth; for I will give it to you'" (Genesis 13:14-17). "The Lord made a covenant with Abraham, saying, 'To your descendants I have given this Land, from the river of Egypt as far as the great river, the river Euphrates'" (Genesis 15:18-21). "I will fix your boundary from the Red Sea to the sea of the Philistines, and from the wilderness to the River Euphrates" (Exodus 23:31). Therefore we must conclude that the entire Land of Israel, including Judea and Samaria (the so-called "West Bank"), Gaza, the Golan Heights, and all of Jerusalem, was given by the God of Israel to the people of Israel in perpetuity. We, and we alone, have been given the title to the Land of Israel as a permanent inheritance by the Lord. No human government or coalition of governments has the right or authority to cede portions of the Land of Israel to anyone else.
Fact #8. In addition to the everlasting covenant (which includes the Land), God swore an oath to give the Jewish people this Land: Keep in mind that it's absolutely impossible for God to break an oath (see Hebrews 6:16-18). In the Holy Scriptures, this oath is reiterated more than forty times. Here is just one example: "He has remembered His covenant forever, the word which He commanded to a thousand generations, the covenant which He made with Abraham, and His oath to Isaac. Then He confirmed it to Jacob for a statute, to Israel as an everlasting covenant, saying, 'To you I will give the land of Canaan as the portion of your inheritance'" (Psalm 105:8-11). There is no other passage in which there are so many words used to describe God's unyielding commitment to Israel: covenant, word, oath, confirm, commandment, a thousand generations, statute, everlasting covenant. A person has to have a terrible bias not to understand that God is assuring the Jewish people the perpetual right to the Land of Israel in the strongest possible language.
Fact #9. Israel's sin and resulting exile from the Land of Israel never annulled God's covenant with His Chosen People, nor did it permanently abrogate our right to the Land of Israel: "Yet in spite of this (Israel's disobedience), when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them, nor will I so abhor them as to destroy them, breaking My covenant with them; for I am the Lord their God. But I will remember for them the covenant with their ancestors" - which includes the Land of Israel (Leviticus 26:44-45). Our exile from Israel was meant to be temporary! In Deuteronomy 30:1-5, Moses specifically predicted that we would experience a time of obedience and blessing within the Land, followed by a period of disobedience and exile from the Land, followed by spiritual restoration to God and physical restoration to the Land: "So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind in all nations where the Lord your God has banished you, and you return to the Lord your God and obey Him with all your heart and soul according to all that I command you today, you and your sons, then the Lord your God will restore you from captivity, and have compassion on you, and will gather you again from all the people where the Lord your God has scattered you. If your outcasts are at the ends of the Earth, from there the Lord your God will gather you, and from there He will bring you back. And the Lord your God will bring you into the Land which your fathers possessed, and you shall possess it."
It's no coincidence that after two thousand years of exile, the Chosen People are being restored to the Land that our fathers possessed, and simultaneously, we are being spiritually restored to God through the Messiah, as is evidenced by the growth of the Messianic Jewish movement in Israel and around the world.
The Son of God Himself predicted that because the majority of Israel did not believe He was the Messiah, Jerusalem would be destroyed, and we would be exiled among the nations, but eventually, we would return to Israel (Luke 21:23-24). This prophecy began in 70 AD when Jerusalem was destroyed, and then again in 135 AD, when the Second Jewish Revolt against the Roman Empire was crushed. We were scattered to the nations, and lost political control of Jerusalem. However, over the past 2,000 years, there were always some Jewish people who remained in the Land of Israel. Starting in the 1880's, this prophesied regathering of Jewish people to Israel picked up speed, and now there is a reborn nation of Israel, with Jerusalem as its capital, with 5.3 million Jewish people regathered from more than 70 countries, just as Israel's Messiah predicted.
Fact #10. In His prophetic Word, God promised to regather us to "our own Land": "I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands, and bring you into your own Land... And you will live in the Land that I gave to your forefathers" (Ezekiel 36:24, 28). Again Ezekiel predicts: "Thus says the Lord God, 'Behold, I will take the sons of Israel from among the nations where they have gone, and I will gather them from every side and bring them into their own Land'" (Ezekiel 37:21). Jeremiah adds: "'Behold days are coming' declares the Lord, 'when it will no longer be said, "As the Lord lives, who brought up the sons of Israel out of the land of Egypt," but, "As the Lord lives, who brought up the sons of Israel from the land of the north and from all the countries where He had banished them." For I will restore them to their own Land which I gave to their fathers'" (Jeremiah 16:14-15). Ultimately this regathering to our own Land will be greater than the Exodus out of Egypt!
Fact #11. In His prophetic Word, God calls this restored Land "Israel" - not "Palestine": "I will open up your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves, My people; and I will bring you into the Land of Israel" (Ezekiel 37:12). The name "Palestine" comes from the Philistines, the ancient enemies of the Jewish people. "Palestine" was the derogatory name given to the Land of Israel by the Romans after they conquered us. But throughout the Word of God, this Land is always called Israel - never Palestine.
Fact #12. God, speaking to us through the prophet Ezekiel, informs us that this Land is specifically reserved for the Jewish people: "You O mountains of Israel, you will put forth your branches and bear your fruit for My people Israel; for they will soon come. For behold, I am for you, and I will turn to you, and you will be cultivated and sown. I will multiply men on you, all the house of Israel, all of it; and the cities will be inhabited and the waste places will be rebuilt" (Ezekiel 36:8-10). 2,500 years ago Ezekiel told us that in the Last Days the Jewish people would be restored to our Land. The Land would begin to prosper and the Jewish population would greatly increase. In the past century these prophetic words have been coming to pass. The Land of Israel, which lay barren for centuries, has seen increasing numbers of the sons of Israel returning to our ancient homeland, repopulating the cities and cultivating the Land.
Fact #13. 2,500 years ago the Lord also told us that the Jewish return to the Land would provoke a reaction from Israel's neighbors: "Because the enemy has spoken against you 'Aha' and 'The everlasting heights have become our possession' ... Surely in the fire of My jealousy I have spoken against the rest of the nations, and against all Edom, who appropriated My Land for themselves as a possession with wholehearted joy and scorn of soul, to drive it out as a prey" (Ezekiel 36:2-5). Even though the nations surrounding Israel would claim possession of the Land of Israel for themselves, and try to drive out its rightful Jewish inhabitants, God repudiates the claims of these nations. Even though the majority of the Jewish people were exiled from our Land (there always was a remnant of Jewish people who remained within Israel), that doesn't give anyone else the right to claim the Land of Israel for themselves. If a landlord has some bad tenants that he evicts from his property, he does not expect anyone else to enter his vacant property and claim it for their own. Due to our sins, the Landlord of Israel evicted most of us from the Land, but that didn't give the Romans, the Byzantines, the Crusaders, the Ottomans or the Arabs the right to claim God's holy Land for themselves.
Fact #14. God will severely judge any nation who divides up any part of this special Land: "In those days and at that time when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem, I will gather all the nations and bring them down to the valley of Jehoshaphat. Then I will enter into judgment with them there on behalf of My people and My inheritance Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations; and they have divided up My Land" (Joel 3:1-2). When Messiah Yeshua returns, the fortunes of the Jewish people will be fully restored, and the nations will be summoned to Jerusalem, where they will be judged for scattering the Jewish people and dividing up our Land.
Fact #15. Eventually this conflict over the Land of Israel will entangle the entire world: God, speaking through the prophet Zechariah in 12:1-3, in the Sixth Century BC, predicted: "Behold I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that causes reeling to all the peoples around" (the nations will react to the regathering of the Jewish people with senseless behavior and irrational hatred); "and when the siege is against Jerusalem, it will also be against Judah. And it will come about in that day that I will make Jerusalem a heavy stone for all the peoples" (Israel's Islamic neighbors want to destroy the hated "Zionist Entity" because the Islamic worldview teaches that the entire world will ultimately come under the control of Islam. A Jewish state in the midst of the Moslem Middle East is by its very existence an insult to Allah and Islam, and must be destroyed. Islam can have no true and lasting peace with Israel - only a temporary cease-fire. Hostilities will once again be renewed when Islamic strength is renewed. At its core, this is a religious conflict - not a political or economic one); "all who lift it will be severely injured." (The nations of the world will be drawn into this conflict and try to remove the Jewish presence from Jerusalem. However, be warned - every nation that tries to remove the Jewish people from our Land and capital city will be severely injured). "And all the nations of the Earth will be gathered against it." (The world's united nations will wage a final world war in the Middle East, directed against Israel).
It's amazing to see this 2,500-year-old prophetic scenario shaping up before our very eyes! Zechariah's prophecy continues and informs us that the army of the united nations will be defeated; God will destroy all those nations that fight against Israel; Israel will be miraculously saved and recognize Yeshua as the Messiah!
Fact #16. This will be a time of great difficulty for the Jewish people, but we will be miraculously delivered out of it: "Alas! for that day is great, there is none like it; and it is the time of Jacob's distress, but he will be saved from it" (Jeremiah 30:7). The fires of anti-Semitism will reach their hottest point in the near future, but with God's help, we will come through our fiery trials to a time of unparalleled salvation. Israel's salvation and blessing will then overflow to the other nations of the world.
Sadly, many Christians won't accept these facts because they accept "Replacement Theology," the erroneous teaching that God is finished with the Jewish people, and has replaced Israel with the Church. Speaking to us through the prophet Jeremiah, the Lord specifically warns against having a theology that denies Israel's future destiny: "Have you not observed what this people have spoken, saying, 'The two families which the Lord chose, He has rejected them?' Thus they despise My people, no longer are they as a nation in their sight. Thus says the Lord, 'If My covenant for day and night stand not, and the fixed patterns of Heaven and Earth I have not established, then I would reject the descendants of Jacob and David My servant, not taking from His descendants rulers over the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. But I will restore their fortunes and will have mercy on them'" (Jeremiah 33:24-26). All of God's promises to the Jewish people will literally be fulfilled! Christians must repudiate "Replacement Theology." No one who claims to follow the Messiah ought to teach or believe that the Jewish people have been lost, destroyed, replaced, superseded, permanently set aside or continually exiled from our Land.
Don't ignore the admonition given by Rabbi Paul, the Apostle to the Gentiles, specifically directed to Gentile Christians, which I paraphrase here: "do not be arrogant toward the natural branches, the Jewish people. God chose them to be the root of the Tree of Salvation. They support you - you don't support or replace them! Only some of them were broken off from the Tree of Salvation - not all of them. Moreover, it is God's plan to graft the entire Jewish nation back into the Tree of Salvation, so don't be arrogant or conceited toward the Jewish people. Be respectful to them, lest God punish you!" (Romans 11:17-24).
Someone observed that knowing that God will not break His covenant with the Jewish people, even in spite of our sins, should be reassuring to every Christian. If God broke His covenant with the Jewish people (which includes the Land of Israel) due to our sins, what about twenty centuries of Christian history? It's true that there has been a faithful remnant within the Church, just as there has always been a faithful remnant of true Believers within Israel, but there has also been an endless succession of anti-Semitism, heresy, apostasy, greed, immorality, division, and ceaseless struggles for power and prominence within the visible Church. Professing Christians have subjected fellow Christians to torture and death in the name of Christ. If God can annul His covenant with Israel, then He can just as easily annul His covenant with the Church! But the faithful God will never break any of His covenants with Israel or the Church.
If you are a Christian you need to stand by Israel, and support Israel as much as possible. God's ancient promise in Genesis 12:3 is still very much in effect: "I will bless those who bless you, and the one who curses you I will curse." And God, speaking to Israel, promises, "Behold, all those who are angered at you will be shamed and dishonored; those who contend with you will be as nothing and will perish. You will seek those who quarrel with you, but will not find them, those who war with you will be as nothing and non-existent" (Isaiah 41:11-12).
Christian churches should regularly pray "for the peace of Jerusalem," asking God to send King Messiah back to Jerusalem, so He can rule on the throne of David, bringing peace to Israel and the other nations. There will never be peace in the Middle East, or on Earth, until Messiah Yeshua is ruling from Jerusalem over a restored Israel populated by Messianic Jews. We need to pray for our Arab brothers, that they too might come into relationship with the God of Israel through Messiah Yeshua.
Rather than persecuting us for the death of Yeshua, and engaging in any form of anti-Semitism, true Christians must reach out to the Jewish people with love and mercy, and help us find God and the Messiah. Because of the way that God has used Israel to bring salvation to the other nations, every true Christian is under a special obligation to help the Chosen People, who have stumbled, come into a right relationship with God, which includes Messiah Yeshua. Rabbi Paul, the Apostle to the Gentiles, declared: "Salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel jealous" (Romans 11:11). True Christians should have compassion on us, love us and make us jealous of their relationship with the God of Israel. Your peace and joy, your love and mercy, and your knowledge of God and Messiah should challenge us to reevaluate our rejection of Yeshua.
I wish I had more time to elaborate on this important subject. But sadly, I don't. However, in brief I would say that the land belongs to God, and God has promised the land to Abraham and his offspring forever. According to the apostle Paul, in Romans he says that Christ "confirmed" the promises made to the fathers. This includes the land, and everything associated with it.
For a more detailed analysis, I would highly commend to you the sermons on this site by the late Art Katz.
ET, may I suggest you check out some of the many other threads that have discussed this topic by using the search engine; the link is at the top of the SI main page.
Here's one:
Have a look through it; there will be some posts you'll want to skip over... but when you're finally done reading through the thread some time next spring, you'll be better informed to answer your question yourself. :)
Scripture would be nice right about now. Thanks
I wish that we could highlight (embolden) certain portions, but I think that this entire chapter is worth noting in regard to Israel:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+10&version=NIV1984
ROMANS 10
1 Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. 2 For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. 3 Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. 4 Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.
5 Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: “The man who does these things will live by them.” 6 But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 “or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9 That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11 As the Scripture says, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”
16 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?” 17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. 18 But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did:
“Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.”
19 Again I ask: Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says,
“I will make you envious by those who are not a nation;
I will make you angry by a nation that has no understanding.”
20 And Isaiah boldly says,
“I was found by those who did not seek me;
I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me.”
21 But concerning Israel he says,
“All day long I have held out my hands
to a disobedient and obstinate people.”
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%2011&version=NIV1984
ROMANS 11 (NIV)
The Remnant of Israel
1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”? 4 And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.
7 What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, 8 as it is written:
“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes so that they could not see
and ears so that they could not hear,
to this very day.”
9 And David says:
“May their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
10 May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
and their backs be bent forever.”
Ingrafted Branches
11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!
13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
All Israel Will Be Saved
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is[f] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”
28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Doxology
33 Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out!
34 “Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?”
35 “Who has ever given to God,
that God should repay him?”
36 For from him and through him and to him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.
You can click on the link above and see the same chapter from the KJV, NASB and other versions.
To me, these passages (and the chapters around it) seem to clearly indicate a "still God's chosen people" on this Earth. Now, it is clear in Romans chapter 9 that salvation is found ONLY in Christ -- and not in a physical or genealogical heritage. So, in this sense, believers are the Israel of faith. However, the Jews are the physical nation that God chose. God did not fail...nor did he change his mind.
After all, one of the Calvinists' favorite verses is Romans 11:29 -- and it is clearly (at least to me) talking about the "chosen" genealogical heritage of the Jews. Reading it in tandem with verse 28:
"As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable."-Romans 11:28-30 (NIV)
These are just a few things to think about.
Thank you brother for bringing the full context of the scriptures to the thread.And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. 27 And this is[f] my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”
I've chosen this portion of scripture for now to look at.
Now, I know that many of us have laboured to bring this truth out and believe me, I scratch my head many a time because I know what it's saying and what it's not saying. We have all agreed at one point that the "ALL" means all. But when we compare with other scriptures we have to come to a logical conclusion that Paul had to have speaking of the elect of Israel, not the whole of Israel.
Why? Because of Romans 9:27 Isaiah also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: 28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
This is not a future work, this work was finished at Calvary, and Israel here is the remnant, not everyone.
So the All of Israel is the remnant.
Please please please tell me if anyone else sees that?
A very hot topic indeed. I agree with most of what's been posted but must disagree with the "timing" and the implication that 1948 was anything more but the "covenant with death".
Since we can all share our feelings peacefully here, I felt a freedom to hit reply for this subject.
#1 - Yes, Israel & Jerusalem belong to GOD.
Our Messiah will return to the Mt. of Olives.
But, the majority of the Scriptures posted in the replies are pointing to the day of His Return and 'that' is when He will regather the scattered - because they'll be scattered once again when war and persecution breaks out against them.
If you look at who and what "made Israel a nation in 1948" you will find that it was no other than the Balfour letter/agreement of Mr. Rothschild and then the U.N. Declaration - and it's important to read all that surrounds that UN declaration. All the UN Resolutions that were written in connection with that Declaration. Such as making Jerusalem the International City .... thus preparing it for the seat of antiChrist one day. The Vatican owning a good portion of Jerusalem, etc..
That's why I believe it was Israel's covenant with death, as it is written.
All the prophets and Jesus spoke of the horror that will come to Israel before His Return and what He will have to rescue her from. So again, I contend that these Scriptures of their "wonderful regathering" will not be accomplished until Messiah - the True King returns.
Until then, as a whole, Israel as it is now is sinning horribly - as far as what they are allowing morally. And they (those who are not the true Remnant) will believe the antiChrist is their Messiah.
1948's actions were solely to claim Israel, to counterfeit Biblical Prophecy, so as to deceive both Christian and a portion of the Jewish peoples. But when they & we see the "abomination" that Daniel and Jesus spoke of - their eyes will be opened. The true remnant's that is.
GOD foreknew what man would do and wrote it all in His Book but the days of the glory of Israel will never come nor the majority of the Scriptures mentioned on this thread fulfilled until "That Day".
Pray that none of us, Jew or Gentiles will be deceived ... for if it were possible, as you know - even the elect much watch that they not be. Amen.
Chris, you say
"Now, it is clear in Romans chapter 9 that salvation is found ONLY in Christ -- and not in a physical or genealogical heritage. So, in this sense, believers are the Israel of faith"
We must remember that the inheritance of the land for Israel will be given when Christ returns. They, the Jews will see Him whom they pierced. They will believe in Him on seeing Him, like Thomas:
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. John 20:27-29 (KJV)
For us, His church, we are blessed, not having seen Him, but believed on Him. This is why the church could not be born until Christ had ascended on High and sent us the Holy Spirit.
We are His heavenly people having no home or hope in this world, in the land of Israel, or our own nation. Our eyes should not be on the events happening in the world around us, but on Christ expecting His coming to take us to Himself.
But God has not left us ignorant, but has made known unto us the mystery of His will:
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: Eph 1:9-10 (KJV)
That dispensation, or age of the fullness of times is when Christ returns with us His heavenly saints to His earthly ones, so gathering together all things in Christ.
David
Now some of them have 'land' again, they are intent upon building another Temple. Sounds sadly like history repeating itself.
Of course it is. Hebrew prophecy is pattern. Another temple is necessary in order for the son of perdition to be revealed. Should this be surprising?
Ultimately, I think that this discussion is not nearly as important as some would make it out to be.
After all, I think that these things are clear:
1. Gentiles who have met the Messiah are the "Israel of God" BY FAITH.
2. The "by faith" part is most important in terms of our eternal condition.
3. There is no "free pass" into Eternity with Christ based upon your physical genealogical heritage. The only people who make it -- whether genealogically a Jew or Gentile -- are those whose names are written in the Book of Life.
Still, and on a personal level, I don't believe that the physical genealogical heritage of the chosen people has ever "taken back" by God. That was the purpose of the statement in Romans 11:28-29 about the call of God being "irrevocable." God's promises to the genealogical Jews are still binding -- even though we now have a New Covenant that is by faith.
It is vitally important. Either the prophets are true or they are liars. Fulfilment is important. Our whole lives revolve around truth.Ultimately, I think that this discussion is not nearly as important as some would make it out to be.
Yes this is a hot topic, but you know, if anyone gets heated over this, I question their spirit.
But I have presented this "ALL" of Israel a few times in other threads as being the elect of God, the remnant, and I can't get one soul to agree with how the scripture presents that.
I find this statement offensive. Not that I am incensed or anything like that, I think the Apostles would be offended.
The New Testament included the Jews, as it was to the Jew first.God's promises to the genealogical Jews are still binding -- even though we now have a New Covenant that is by faith.
We were not there when the Lord added to the Church DAILY, "such as should be saved", but Peter would enter this forum and say:
Were you there when we were filled with power from on high and I stood up by the power of the Holy Ghost and preached a sobering message of what my audience the Jews had done to their Messiah by condemning Him and crucifying Him to a tree?
Were you there when for Joy unspeakable and full of glory when THOUSANDS of male Jews that day dropped their heads in total surrender to the Lordship of Jesus Christ?
Were you there when a few weeks later when me and John went up to the Temple, there I saw a lame man begging, and I said silver and gold have I none but such as I have in the name of Jesus rise and walk. And the power of God snapped those ankles back together and caused that man to walk and we stood up again to preach to the THOUSANDS of Jews that were there that day surrounding the Temple, surely the Deliverer had come to save Jacob from his sins.
Such as should be saved!
Hi Snuf...
It is vitally important. Either the prophets are true or they are liars. Fulfilment is important. Our whole lives revolve around truth.
I meant to point out that the underlying principles found in Scripture are true no matter what people suppose or opine regarding the modern nation of Israel, the spiritual condition of physically genealogical Jews or the status of the promise that God made thousands of years ago. Those three points that I pointed out in my last post are, I think, agreed upon by most believers.
I do agree that there is a danger of straying from the simple principles toward a direction that is divisive or even ethnically, nationally or politically anti-Semitic. That is why we need to stick to the undeniable spiritual principles for any of our proclamations. Jews need Jesus. Gentiles need Jesus. People who don't know what they are need Jesus. ALL people -- Jew AND Gentile -- need Christ Jesus. There is no excuse to reject Jesus as the Christ.
Yet, it is my opinion that the promises and covenant of God to the physical, genealogical Jews is irrevocable. They are still His chosen people upon this Earth -- even though we are spiritual Jews by faith.
I have always thought of it like this: I have a home that I operate here on the Earth. I have natural responsibilities to that home (whether I am saved or not). As a Christian, I realize that this home is just a temporary dwelling and that my ultimate home is Eternal with Christ Jesus. However, I don't sell my house and move to Heaven (not yet). Until I breathe my last breath (or until Christ returns), I have responsibilities to take care of my family, provide for them and prepare a place for them.
Maybe I am getting carried away. In my mind, it is much more simple than that.
I believe Paul said there is 'no Jew or gentile' in Christ.So my question is, is there any scriptural basis for viewing the modern state of Israel as any different from any other state in the world system (with respect to favor of God etc)?
The position of SermonIndex and "most" of the biblical preachers on the website is that in the book of Romans it speaks of us being ingrafted into the promises of the jews. We therefore must be humble and fear (tremble with reverent awe). thinking we are of a higher position or of better quality then the former "people of God".
The jewish people will be "re-grafted" into the vine via the church therefore they will also humble themselves in that way but let us not be high-minded.
I believe we should "biblically" reconize there is a jewish people that God looks as seperate then all the Gentiles (all other people groups and nations).
secondly we need to realize that God has an end-time special purpose for the jewish people after the times of the gentiles is finished.
So we should therefore be excited that there is a physical representation of the jewish people in the forming of a "Israel country state". We should not be against this but glory that God is true to His word to keep these people in the end.
You either side on God with this or you side with others who hate the jews, ie muslims, hitlers, communists, satanists, and every other wicked group that hates the formation of the state, they want everyone to believe the jewish people are non-existentent.
Remember: Jesus is the king of the jews. We serve a jewish king. All the apostles where jewish. And may we humbly say we are now a part of these promises of God given to us in the New Covenant. And the Jew becomes finally our litmus test also to see the genuiness of our walk with Christ. They expose the unreality of our profession if they are not provoked.
Hence in the end we will accomplish God's eternal purpose in Christ if we are in Him in such a way that provokes the Jew. I personally am excited to engage anyone of this nature and have seen God do amazing things without even the word spoken just the way I clasped onto my bible which to them represented I loved these scriptures more then any other possession on earth and that provoked them. For all Jews love the Name of their God and their scriptures highly and such was a way God used this weak servant to draw some Jews To Christ the true Messiah.
Oh brothers and Sisters let us humbly enter into God's program and read his whole New Covenant and not take out parts and emphasis others more then some.
I exhort everyone to read through the entire book of Romans carefully and not come to a different conclusion.
God's Hand in the 6 Day War
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wMIq6X4zi4&feature=related
Jerusalem of Gold
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GHAeA-O_jw
or subtitled for non Hebrew speakers:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlIJOAZ1pak&feature=related
Ana HaShem (PS116:16)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMUYP8sVbHk
"O LORD, I am your servant;
I am your servant, the son of your maidservant.
You have loosed my bonds".
amen. in Jesus' love, neil
Both your posts are right on, Greg. Amen.
Thanks for the links as well, Neil.
Ana HaShem is beautiful.
Psalm 137
How Shall We Sing the LORD’s Song?
By the waters of Babylon,
there we sat down and wept,
when we remembered Zion.
On the willows there
we hung up our lyres.
For there our captors
required of us songs,
and our tormentors, mirth, saying,
"Sing us one of the songs of Zion!"
How shall we sing the LORD’s song
in a foreign land?
If I forget you, O Jerusalem,
let my right hand forget its skill!
Let my tongue stick to the roof of my mouth,
if I do not remember you,
if I do not set Jerusalem
above my highest joy!
Remember, O LORD, against the Edomites
the day of Jerusalem,
how they said, "Lay it bare, lay it bare,
down to its foundations!"
O daughter of Babylon, doomed to be destroyed,
blessed shall he be who repays you
with what you have done to us!
Blessed shall he be who takes your little ones
and dashes them against the rock!
Psalm 32
Blessed Are the Forgiven
A Maskil of David.
Blessed is the one whose transgression is forgiven,
whose sin is covered.
Blessed is the man against whom the LORD counts no iniquity,
and in whose spirit there is no deceit.
For when I kept silent, my bones wasted away
through my groaning all day long.
For day and night your hand was heavy upon me;
my strength was dried up as by the heat of summer.
Selah
I acknowledged my sin to you,
and I did not cover my iniquity;
I said, "I will confess my transgressions to the LORD,"
and you forgave the iniquity of my sin.
Selah
herefore let everyone who is godly
offer prayer to you at a time when you may be found;
surely in the rush of great waters,
they shall not reach him.
You are a hiding place for me;
you preserve me from trouble;
you surround me with shouts of deliverance.
Selah
I will instruct you and teach you in the way you should go;
I will counsel you with my eye upon you.
Be not like a horse or a mule, without understanding,
which must be curbed with bit and bridle,
or it will not stay near you.
Many are the sorrows of the wicked,
but steadfast love surrounds the one who trusts in the LORD.
Be glad in the LORD, and rejoice, O righteous,
and shout for joy, all you upright in heart!
WHO IS ISRAEL?
There is a physical Israel consisting of Hebrews of the lineage of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and there is also a spiritual Israel consisting of the same, but includes gentiles who were grafted into the spiritual root after the Lord Jesus ascended on high, and after the feast of Pentecost as per Acts 10. Not ALL references to Israel in the bible refers to the spiritual Israel, and NOT all references to Israel in the bible refers to the physical Israel either.
Not all Jews believe, and although they belong to the physical Israel, they do not belong to the spiritual Israel (because of their unbelief). National Israel lost the Spiritual heritage when they were cut off after the resurrection of God's only Son - when they were dispersed during the diaspora - a judgement that lasted almost 2000 years. But God has, in these last days, has brought them back together in the land that He promised to their forefathers...and the day of restoration is at hand.
Believing Israel was the called church (or congregation) in the wilderness.
The Church/Israel is a spiritual body of called out ones (elected)...The Greek word ekklēsia, literally "assembly, congregation, council", is the traditional term referring to the Christian Church, but we read in scripture this also referred to believing Israel as well.
I won't go too much into it in depth on how gentiles were grafted into the stock of Israel too much with this post as per (Romans 11) as the Apostle Paul wrote about.
...but
The "Congregation" aka "Church" aka "Ekklēsia" Is Israel of whom gentiles were grafted in (this is not national unbelieving Israel) but elected saints now consisting of both the Jew first and also the Gentile. And I am not talking about replacement theology, nobody is replacing national Israel unbelieving or otherwise. The Israelites have always been the Church...ALWAYS! The gentiles were grafted into this body, not made a Jew in the flesh, but of the Spirit who gives life to all, for there is no partiality with God.
The OT which says and makes referance to the CHURCH IN THE WILDERNESS and how that church is called THE CALLED OUT ONES. Israel was called the Church, before the gentiles were grafted in - this is to say that the Church (the Spiritual Israel) did not start on Pentecost. The Church received power for Godly living and testimony on Pentecost - It is through the righteousness of God that the free gift of the Holy Spirit is given, even to us, who through obedience to the faith in Christ Jesus are made righteous by His shed blood...in that He took away our sins, and in the absence of sin the righteous requirements of the law are fulfilled; therefore, the Holy Spirit could come.
Where there is no sin, the Law of God cannot condemn, but is fulfilled. It was not until sin was removed (through the cross of Christ), and the righteous requirements of the law were fulfilled (absence of sin), that the Holy Spirit could come, who wrote the laws of God on our hearts rather than on stone.
For what the law could not do(written law), in that it was weak through the flesh (because we could not keep the law through the flesh), God (did) (by)sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh (took away the sins - so that power for holy living could be given):
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us (absence of sin through the blood of Christ), who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Romans 8:3-4 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body (power for righteous living), you will live. Rom 8:13 (emphasis mine)
Paul stated in Romans 11 that the Gentiles have been GRAFTED INTO THIS BODY, thereby making BOTH in the SAME BODY AND SPIRITUAL ROOTS.
Paul went on to teach in Ephesians that there is NOW NO DIVIDING WALL between the Jew or the Gentile, FOR WE ARE NOW ALL ONE BODY.
For you who may be reading this post and are not familiar with Pauls writing in Ephesians, I challenge you to read Ephesians and NOTE IN PATICULAR verses 2:11-22. You will find the following statements:
1. The Gentiles (at one time) were aliens from the commonweath of Israel.
2. The Gentiles (at one time) were called uncircumcision who had NO HOPE being,
without Christ in this World.
3. The Gentiles were (at one time) strangers from the covenants of promise.
4. Jesus Christ brought us ALL NEAR BY HIS BLOOD and made peace.
5. Jesus ABOLISHED in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments
contained in ordinances in order to MAKE ONE NEW MAN [BODY OR CHURCH]
6. Jesus reconciled BOTH BY HIS CROSS....PUTING away the condemnation against
all people.
7. ALL OF US, JEW AND GENTILE are according to the Apostle Paul, [Who was writing SCRIPTURE],..........
FELLOW-CITIZENS IN THE.....HOUSEHOLD OF GOD.
The Apostle Paul now goes on in Chapter 3 to say some VERY IMPORTANT WORDS. He NOW MENTIONS THE DISPENSATION OF THE GRACE OF GOD, and how this Mystery was the fact that the Gentiles should be FELLOW HEIRS, AND OF THE SAME BODY, AND PARTAKERS OF HIS PROMISE IN CHRIST BY THE GOSPEL.
This fully sums it up....THERE IS ONLY ONE CHURCH/ISRAEL
...of whom the gentiles were grafted in.
National Israel today (unbelieving as they are), is not the church (spiritual Israel) or the called out ones, but if all Jews in Israel suddenly accepted the Lord Jesus they would be grafted back into their own branch (the spiritual Israel),
...And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
For if you (gentile) were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree? Romans 11:23-24
The book of Revelations in not about national Israel, but about believing Israel (of whom gentiles were grafted in). The Kingdom will be restored to national Israel when Jesus returns and rules as King over the nations from Jerusalem, but then there will not be an unbelieving Jew in Israel at that time. Imagine all of the Apostles and the 12 Patriarchs, Moses, Elijah, King David, Enoch...all walking the streets of Jerusalem together. Do you think there will be any unbelieving Jews in Israel in that day with these guys walking around?
NOW PAY ATTENTION
National Israel today, is a direct fulfillment of prophecy of Jews coming into there own land...but only a remnant will be saved. It is a prophecy marker and a timeline to us who believe, and to show us that we are in the very last of days...that this generation will see the coming of the Lord.
The nation of Israel today is as a sign of the end of this age, and that the Lord Jesus is about to return. (the full number of the gentiles (grafted into spiritual Israel/Church) is almost come in). There will be a great falling away of Adam's race and many in what is now supposedly called the church, but from the ruins of what was once a "Grand Old Mansion" will arise a new one much more glorious then the former, even as the Prophet Haggai has said: The glory of this latter house shall be greater than of the former, saith the LORD of hosts: and in this place will I give peace, saith the LORD of hosts.”
Antichrist will come first before the rebuilding of the "Grand Old Mansion" and deceive many, but not all. A great revival will occur on earth such as not have been since time began, so great will be this move of the Spirit of God. Time is so short now, and it is time for those who are sitting on the fence with their Christianity to sit up and take notice to what is coming, because of day of judgement is approaching...time to get ready. The days of the Great Tribulation will soon be upon us.
I believe there is a biblical purpose for (national Israel) today, and that is the direct fulfillment of Ezekiel 36-37
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel%2036-37&version=NKJV
The full restoration national Israel is still pending, and will be completed AFTER the first resurrection and AFTER the battle of Armageddon when our Lord Jesus restores ALL things. Israel as a nation today is a sign of the end of the age of the time also known as "the time of the gentiles".
The Lord Jesus has said this and also reaffirmed by the Apostle Paul.
The time of the Gentiles is almost complete...that is to say "the fulness of the Gentiles is almost come in"
Did not our Lord Jesus even say:
"Jerusalem shall be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled." (Luke 21:24)
This is why Israel is a nation today, because the prophecy is fulfilled and this time has now come...we are at the gateway to the time known as the Great Tribulation and the day of the Lord...and time is running out.
The existence of the nation of Israel in this last hour, is a prophecy marker about the imminent return of the Lord Jesus the Messiah of Israel.
As the Apostle Paul has written:
For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel (the Jews) until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
........Until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in....and then what?
Here's what:
“ The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”
Romans 11:25-27
...so the Jew will be grafted back into their own Branch (spiritual Israel) as a nation!
There is a remnant of Israel that will be saved:
1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 “LORD, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”? 4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. Rom 11:1-5
One day ALL Israel will say: "blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord"! How do I know this? This is how:
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing! See! Your house is left to you desolate; and assuredly, I say to you, you shall not see Me until the time comes when you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!’” Luke 13:34-35
See, they will say this, even the Lord Jesus has said this, and then they will seek Him and shall mourn for Him in anguish and deep repentance as a nation. God forgives them for all their sins and for their backsliding, and remembers them no more; He washes them in the Blood of the Lamb so that they will be clean. God allows the foundation of repentance, and allows a broken and contrite and humble spirit within them...so that they may repent, so that they may return to the God of their salvation fully, with a pure heart, and with clean and undefiled and holy hands - for the Lord will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon Him whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for Him, as one who mourns for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. Is this not written in Zechariah the prophet?
Unbelief in Israel among the Jews will be cut off soon enough...a great and a terrible day - a time of Jacob's trouble...
Zechariah 13:8-9 (New King James Version)
8 And it shall come to pass in all the land,”
Says the LORD,
“ That two-thirds in it shall be cut off and die,
But one-third shall be left in it:
9 I will bring the one-third through the fire,
Will refine them as silver is refined,
And test them as gold is tested.
They will call on My name,
And I will answer them.
I will say, ‘This is My people’;
And each one will say, ‘The LORD is my God.’”
Seek of the Lord mercy for others in a gentle spirit, and consider yourself too, so that you are not ensnared by the wicked one. God has a purpose for the nation of Israel today, not to replace His spiritual Israel, which is His church, but to graft back into the Branch the unbelieving Jew, back into their own Branch (the Spiritual Israel)...and I believe this time will come during the Great Tribulation which is before us, even as the prophet Jeremiah has said: Alas! For that day is great, So that none is like it; And it is the time of Jacob’s trouble, But he shall be saved out of it.
This thread has ended. There is no point in going further as the only one's that can add thereto are the one's that have a "yes" vote.You either side on God with this or you side with others who hate the Jews, ie Muslims, Hitlers, communists, satanists, and every other wicked group that hates the formation of the state, they want everyone to believe the Jewish people are non-existent.
If you say no, than your a Jew hater.
What if God has a different truth to offer that many have been blinded on, or unwilling to hear or can't hear?
I am not a Paul Washer, but if I was, I bet I would be heard.
And no,, I do not have an agenda, because I am done with this thread and all Israel of God threads as the statement above is clear.
God's people the Jews in the OT under Jeremiah spoke about Gods will for them to go to Babylon, but they refused, the whole nation believed that he was wrong, they said Egypt was their destination. Jeremiah was nothing like he is in our minds today. We see him as a great man of God, the Jews in that day saw him as a David Wilkerson, a Zac Poonen, a meddler. Just like today when any of us who haven't garnered a name stands up with a truth, we are shot down instantly because the vast majority does not agree with it.
They went to Egypt anyway, God sent the king of Babylon and conquered Egypt and all the Jews were brought to Babylon.
Truth is not easy to receive, and I am not saying I have it, not at all. I am just saying, I wish that we can just let our guard down and stop protecting what we think is true, and let a little light shine in and perhaps see something that we haven't seen before made a little clearer.
They followed what they perceived as truth. That always scares me. When ever I think I am right about something, I am shaken like a leaf. I don't like it, because rightness can lead to arrogance and I certainly don't want that.
God bless,, and for the record, I don't hate the Jews.
When you side with God you side with all men.
We are debtors to all men. We are to love all men. Arab and Jew alike. I will not side with Christian Zionists, I will not side with Arabs. I will love them both equally and pray that both come to the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ.
The weapons of our warfare are not carnal.
Pray for the peace of Jerusalem to me, means pray for peace in the Church of Jesus Christ. We don't recognize a physical temple anymore (we are the temple of God) and we don't recognize a physical Jerusalem anymore, we look for a city whose builder and maker is God. And we are part of the City of God.
I think if we continue to look for physical things we will be deceived once again like the Jews were deceived when they were looking for a physical Deliverer in the time of Jesus.
Pilgrim, you're talking out of my own mouth.
God has broken down the middle wall of partition between Jew and Gentile, reconciling both unto God in one body by the Cross, having slain the enmity thereby, "to make (that is, create) in Himself of the twain ONE NEW MAN..."
Wow! A NEW CREATION MAN!
Now, THAT is something else!
...And they live together in perfect peace and harmony in this City called the New Jerusalem.
God Himself, and the Lamb, are the temple of it.
National Israel today, is a direct fulfillment of prophecy of Jews coming into there own land...but only a remnant will be saved. It is a prophecy marker and a timeline to us who believe, and to show us that we are in the very last of days...that this generation will see the coming of the Lord.The nation of Israel today is as a sign of the end of this age, and that the Lord Jesus is about to return. (the full number of the gentiles (grafted into spiritual Israel/Church) is almost come in). There will be a great falling away of Adam's race and many in what is now supposedly called the church, but from the ruins of what was once a "Grand Old Mansion" will arise a new one much more glorious then the former, even as the Prophet Haggai has said: The glory of this latter house shall be greater than of the former, saith the LORD of hosts: and in this place will I give peace, saith the LORD of hosts.”
Antichrist will come first before the rebuilding of the "Grand Old Mansion" and deceive many, but not all. A great revival will occur on earth such as not have been since time began, so great will be this move of the Spirit of God. Time is so short now, and it is time for those who are sitting on the fence with their Christianity to sit up and take notice to what is coming, because of day of judgement is approaching...time to get ready. The days of the Great Tribulation will soon be upon us.
excellent post
sermonindex said
Yes.Remember: Jesus is the king of the jews. We serve a jewish king.
But remember also, HE SAID 'My kingdom is not of this world ...'
And, when He was crucified, the whole Jewish nation was put to death in Christ, just as every other member of the human race, all the way back to Adam.
Acts 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.
As is National Israel, "whose heart the Lord must open". What were the things of Paul? The, "mystery". Never revealed in the old testament or to Israel or to Jewish, until Paul came preaching the Kingdom of Christ in you.
2 Corinthians 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
It is all of Christ and not of Israel, although Christ came through Israel, He is not of earthly Israel, but Heavenly, where we are seated with Christ in the Heavenlies.
Israel will receive, not now, but as the Lord God has promised. Now, Now, Now, who are we concerned with? Christ Jesus our Lord and Life, our new birth, in Him, a new creation race of Christ ones. Christians, which include all that are called according to His purpose. His purpose; "Christ in you the Hope of Glory".
2 Corinthians 3:4-18 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious. Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
Let us be concerned with the present, NOW. In Christ, 167 times Paul speaks it, this is our NOW. God will take care of Israel, we don't have to worry about her.
2 Corinthians 3:4-18 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious. Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
Let our change from glory to glory show to the world, who Christ in us truly is. They that see Christ NOW are of Jewish and Gentile rolled into ONE, Christ Jesus our Lord, birthed in us of the Incorruptable Seed of the Father.
In Christ: Phillip
Pray not for Arab or Jew
For Palestinine or Israel
Pray rather for ourselves
That we might not divide them in our prayers
But keep them both together in our hearts
Ephesians 2:14-22 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
I'm overwhelmed by the responses. I hadn't appreciated the depth of prophetic meaning in the establishment of the modern state of Israel, and more importantly spiritual Israel. Thank you all very much. I have been/am being suitably educated.
ADisciple: thanks for the search function - I hadn't discovered yet. Thanks.
The promise was not made to many seeds but one seed and that seed is Christ
The word "Israel" means God firstborn son...... therefore Paul called the church the church of the firstborn
......and the Jews in the wilderness were called the church in the wilderness
Jesus directed a letter to the church condemning those who said they were jews but were not because the church is the jews
They drank from the rock that was Christ
Peter speaking of the early prophets and fathers said
"1 Peter 1:11
searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow."
It is not replacement theology because Israel and the church are the same
All the prophecies that apply to Israel apply to the church
There cannot be two chosen people and Christ died for His chosen people and not the ones who crucified Him
We are the Temple and it is us that Christ returned to at pentecost
What else needs to be said?
blessings
Doug
Lesserlight
I am sorry for stating my viewpoint in a harsh manner,
However we will never agree regarding Israel.
absolute nonsense.
Would you care to refute the passages i have referred to?
If you need addresses for them I will be happy to provide them.
Blessings
Doug
I believe in a State of Israel 100% percent!
Isaiah 2:3 KJV
And many people shall go and say , Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
Micah 4:2 KJV
And many nations shall come , and say , Come , and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
Deuteronomy 30:3 KJV
That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
Isaiah 11:12 KJV
And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
Matthew 23:39 KJV
For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth , till ye shall say , Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
I wish I could enumerate the numerous scripture passages that deal with the current state of Israel!
David Guzik has recently done something on Israel called the Missing Piece of the New Covenant
http://www.enduringword.com/audio/GodsPlan07.mp3
Psalm 105
3 Glory ye in his holy name: let the heart of them rejoice that seek the LORD. 4 Seek the LORD, and his strength: seek his face evermore. 5 Remember his marvellous works that he hath done ; his wonders, and the judgments of his mouth; 6 O ye seed of Abraham his servant, ye children of Jacob his chosen. 7 He is the LORD our God: his judgments are in all the earth. 8 He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations. 9 Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac; 10 And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant: 11 Saying , Unto thee will I give the land of Canaan, the lot of your inheritance: 12 When they were but a few men in number; yea, very few, and strangers in it. 13 When they went from one nation to another, from one kingdom to another people;
Jeremiah 31
35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar ; The LORD of hosts is his name: 36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever
I have just started , it is so numerous in scripture!
Palestine is also a made up word by the Romans, the current Palestine's are refugees from the Arab Nations that Surround it, if they are so friendly why do the Arab Nations accept them back.
Palestine was actually referred to the Jews early on in the century as the Palestine Journal was actually Jewish!
If you read any documents from say Hamas they believe in the complete annihilation of Israel from planet Earth
"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).
"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "
"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."
"After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."
This is a quote from http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm
The even more disturbing quotes are say from the Quran, what Jews are called in the Quran
http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Arlandson/jew_apes.htm
There are quite a few books that can be referenced to this subject Paul Wilkenson Book for Zions Sake and The Jews, Modern Israel and the New Supercessionism: Resources for Christians by Calvin L. Smith
This is a research topic of mine for quite a time! The state of Israel is not a perfect state neither are we when we are saved, I believe to turn people like the Anti Missionary Organisations who are thriving in Israel around at the moment!
Jews have had so much damage done to the Church in its past, if you know anything about Jewish history!
It
Romans 5:8 KJV
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Zechariah 2:8 KJV
For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye.
Romans 11
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. 15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? 16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches be broken off , and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast , thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off , that I might be graffed in . 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off , and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded , but fear : 21 For if God spared not the natural branches , take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell , severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off . 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in : for God is able to graff them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in . 26 And so all Israel shall be saved : as it is written , There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer , and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes : but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed , that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy . 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. 33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! 34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? 35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again ? 36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
Israel was blinded so that we may have salvation and come to know Jesus, My friend Matt has a statement if you see a man who was blinded so that you could see you would help that blind man! This is what it is like with Israel, they were blinded for our sake!
Israel is not perfect but we have a god who is renowned for sorting out messes including my life and if his grace is enough to save me then Israel would be a trophy of his salvation
It is not a matter of believing in Israel but who is Israel?
The good figs of Judah were called back to the land and it was the good figs that produced Jesus Christ and His followers. King Herod that ruled over the bad figs that crucified Jesus was an Edomite (from the flesh) from when Israel absorbed Edom
And so it remains the same today because there are followers of the flesh that crucified the flesh of Jesus Christ and there are those of the Spirit of Jesus who was the legitimate High Priest after John the Baptist was executed who are the seed of Abraham......... anything less than that is not according to scripture
Are you waiting for a temple yet to be built for Jesus to return to?
We are the Temple
Blessings
Doug
Without bringing up my own view on this matter once again, I would like to encourage everyone to make sure they test all things in the light of the Scriptures with the help of the Holy Spirit.
Without His help we can get way out to sea pretty fast.
One rule which I think is critical to understanding Scripture is this: Always read the Old Testament in the Light of the New. Always.
That is scriptural. God has given greater Light in the New Covenant of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
The apostles of the New Covenant ministered out from the Throne of the ascended Christ. What they have to say about things is the correct interpretation of all things written in what we call our Old Testament, whether the Law or prophecy.
I do wish people would lay this to heart. Find out what the apostles had to say about this. Do it on your knees. Cry out for Light!
...I encourage all to meditate on what I am saying here, and seek God for themselves as to whether it is true or not.
But as I said, it is scriptural. The Light revealed in the New Covenant is the Reality that cast the shadows back there in the Old. There is greater Light for our eyes in the New Covenant. Greater Light.
It is scriptural to say that. "For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect: by reason of the glory that excelleth" (2 Cor. 3.10). Paul is contrasting the two covenants here.
...I hesitate to post my own view on this matter, as I said. One thing I've learned on this forum is that the same matters come up over and over again, and I would like to suggest to posters that what the moderators ask is worth following through on. Go back into the archives with the help of the search engine. You will get an education.
Jeremiah 31
35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar ; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever
Hey ET101,
There is a very good article on the website www.Hebrew4Christians, it goes through the various viewpoints, replacement, remanant, separation theology. I think it is called "Irael and the church", under articles. Check it out.
Let us not confuse the PROMISED state of Israel, and the current spiritual condition of Israel.
Revelation 11
7 When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified."
The Lord is obviously speaking of Jerusalem here as being spiritually "Sodom and Egypt."
Does this nullify the myriad of promises given to Israel as a nation and a people? NO! It is ludicrous to think so.
Are we to stand with Israel politically on each and every stance? I don't think so. Most Israeli nationals despise Islam and Muslims as sub-human murderers. The question we must ask; "Does Jesus?"
Jesus has mercy extended for Al Qaeda, and Muslim terrorists, along with the Palestinians. He loves them, as much as He loves a singular Jew; no different. If the Muslim receives Jesus , and repents by faith,and is born again, that Muslim will be saved.
If a natural Jew receives Jesus, and repents, and is born again, that Jew will be saved. God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but the rejection of Christ Jesus by either Jew or gentile must lead to eternal Damning in the lake of fire, for Jew or gentile.
Israel will be disciplined, even into a hopeless situation. [200 million man army encroaching..] at that time.
Zechariah 12
8. "In that day the LORD will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the Angel of the LORD before them."
9 It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10. “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced.
!! Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.!
................................................
We cannot reject the enemies of Natural Israel. To please Christ Jesus we must show Agape mercy to all who come, regardless of race, or oppression.
Consider these words to Jews who rejected Him...Jesus speaks.......John 8.
...................................................
37. “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you.
38. I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with your father.”
39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”
Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham.
40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this.
41 You do the deeds of your father.”
Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”
42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.
43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word.
44 You are of your father the devil,....
.... and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it." .....................
Jews are not saved by virtue of a blood line. Only the blood of Jesus, and whether or not AN INDIVIDUAL is covered by it or not, is the ONLY BLOODLINE He honors; Jew or Gentile.
As I see it
God is no respecter of persons and they are either believers or unbelievers...... what they were before coming to Christ does not matter
Jesus said unbelievers are condemned already but what are they condemned to?...... almost like asking what are you saved from?. Is there a difference between a Jew or a Gentile when it comes to being either condemned or saved....... of course not
The same word used for an individual is used for "nations" and the word is "goy"
Individuals are either saved or condemned....... no in-betweens no male, no female, race, creed, and most of all no nationality or religion
If God was going to save all of Israel that are descendants of the flesh of Abraham, that would make God a respecter of persons......... but the Bible says that He is not
It would also mean that flesh and blood can inherit the kingdom of heaven...... but the Bible says that flesh and blood cannot inherit heaven
Doug
Sorry just one more thing to add.. check out the olive tree fund, a charity that I believe demonstrates the principle of the one new man. They support both Israeli and Palestinian Christians, promote reconciliation, and reach out to their communities and to the nations with the gospel and with real practical help to meet their needs.
I personally believe Jerusalem is significant in Gods plan for the future.
If God was going to save all of Israel that are descendants of the flesh of Abraham, that would make God a respecter of persons......... but the Bible says that He is not
From Genesis 4
And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering: But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect.
Romans 9 : 13
Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."
I guess God is a respecter of persons after all
Lord, i'll keep my mouth shut, except to thank You for the battlefield smarts you gave the IDF cyberwarriors who slipped that stuxnet virus into the iranian nuclear weapons program centrifuges to make them go awry.
Thank You LORD.
i humbly want to thank You for protecting the State of Israel for over 62 years against overwhelming odds. God of Abraham Jacob and Isaac, Father of Jesus, no other nation on this planet has its very existence brought into question as Israel has, that must mean the "god of this age" has Israel lined up squarely in its crosshairs, yet You, Master of the Universe, provide the True Protection of Israel, for which i praise and thank You so much.
LORD, there's 40,000 missiles that hamas has stockpiled in lebanon from their syrian and iranian masters meant to kill Israel...please God destroy these missiles, render them impotent, confuse the minds of those who's hearts are bent on the destruction of Israel. amen.
I believe Paul said there is 'no Jew or gentile' in Christ.So my question is, is there any scriptural basis for viewing the modern state of Israel as any different from any other state in the world system (with respect to favor of God etc)?
Yes, this is true IN CHRIST. However, the same passage says that there is no "male" of "female" either. Last I checked, women continue to walk around on the Earth. In fact, I married one. :-)
The point that I think is important to remember is that there is a difference between the physical Israel and the spiritual Israel. However, I have never seen anything that would make me think that God revoked His promise to the genealogical nation of Israel as a physical "chosen people." In fact, the passages in Romans seem to indicate otherwise.
Regarding the physical nation of Israel, Paul the Apostle wrote: "As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, FOR GOD'S GIFTS AND HIS CALL ARE IRREVOCABLE" (Romans 11:28-29 NIV).
However...
Jews need Jesus just as much as Gentiles do. There is only ONE WAY to the Father -- and that is through the Son!
Yet, the physical nation of Israel still continues to play an important role in Bible prophecy. I just can't imagine anyone who would argue that Ezekiel 37 wasn't fulfilled when Israel finally was gathered as a nation again in 1948 after thousands of years.
:-)
The prison door can be open, but the prisoner refuses to walk out. That applies to the Israel to whom God commanded Isaiah to prophesy:
Isaiah 6:9 And he said, Go, and tell this people,
Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. 10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
11 Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate, 12 And the LORD have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land.
Jesus, Matthew and Paul all quote this scripture, and I only recently realised it was a command - a curse upon those who were already unbelieving.
2 Corinthians 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Romans 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: 4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth
the adoption,
and the glory,
and the covenants,
and the giving of the law,
and the service of God,
and the promises;
The significance of Paul's choice of what to put at top of the list cannot be overstated. Paul's lists are always in that order of priority, as pertaining to whomever or of whomever, he is writing.
John 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. 3 Jesus answered and said unto him,
Verily, verily, I say unto thee, EXCEPT a man be born again, he CANNOT SEE the kingdom of God.
John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye MUST be born again.
John 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him,
Art thou a MASTER of ISRAEL, and knowest NOT these things?
I agree that the door remains open to the descendants of Jacob to take up God's continuing promises to themselves as idividuals. This grace comes to every one as one who will stand before God alone. God will be looking for individual names in the 'book of life'.
I also think it is strange for Christians who say they believe in Jesus Christ, to overlook ANY of His teaching and prophecies, or, any of the interpretations of prophecy given by the Holy Spirit to His apostles, who included these revelations in their writings. All of it is relevant to making sense of what is going on today.
Acts 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
Acts 3:26 UNTO YOU FIRST God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
(Peter preaching)
Deuteronomy 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will NOT hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I WILL REQUIRE IT OF HIM.
(God speaking to Moses.)
My problem with Israel today not being the Israel prophesied of in the OT is not what is misunderstood about Israel.......
What does bother me is that the the church does not realize that what happened in the natural to Israel happens spiritually within the church.
.... including all the prophecies
Doug
Lord, i'll keep my mouth shut, except to thank You for the battlefield smarts you gave the IDF cyberwarriors who slipped that stuxnet virus into the iranian nuclear weapons program centrifuges to make them go awry.Thank You LORD.
i humbly want to thank You for protecting the State of Israel for over 62 years against overwhelming odds. God of Abraham Jacob and Isaac, Father of Jesus, no other nation on this planet has its very existence brought into question as Israel has, that must mean the "god of this age" has Israel lined up squarely in its crosshairs, yet You, Master of the Universe, provide the True Protection of Israel, for which i praise and thank You so much.
LORD, there's 40,000 missiles that hamas has stockpiled in lebanon from their syrian and iranian masters meant to kill Israel...please God destroy these missiles, render them impotent, confuse the minds of those who's hearts are bent on the destruction of Israel. amen.
Amen.
Amen
Psalm 122
A Song of degrees of David:
I was glad when they said unto me:
'Let us go unto the House of the Lord'.
When our feet stood within thy gates, O Jerusalem;
O Jerusalem, built as a city that is united together;
For there the tribes went up, the tribes of the Lord,
as a testimony of Israel,
to give thanks unto the name of the Lord.
For there are set thrones of judgement,
the thrones of the house of David.
Pray for the peace of Jerusalem:
they that love thee shall prosper.
Peace be within thy walls, and prosperity within thy palaces.
For my brethren and companions' sakes, I will say now,
peace be within thee.
For the sake of the House of the Lord our God I will seek thy good.
havent had the time to read all of this thread. But i have a question to ask without provoking any hostility.
The question is how do we interpret that scripture in light of the new testament?
RainMan,
The answer to your question can be constructed from scripture, if you build it up properly, by which I mean, using ALL the available texts.
I'm not going to lay them all out for you, but to point you in three general directions.
1) Take very seriously what the apostles state are the fulfilments of prophecy they have witnessed. Believe them. Accept their word, even if you still have questions.
Sort of connected to this, I want to suggest that the coming of Christ for which we wait, is His THIRD, in that first He was seen before His death, and second He was seen after His death, (when He explained many things to the disciples from scripture, which they had not understood, and, I daresay we do not understand apart from the Holy Spirit).
With these things in mind, 2) pay a lot of attention to prophecies of Jesus Christ Himself. Some of these, I am led to believe by an elderly Jewish Christian whom I know, are in the parables. Some of these stories encapsulate Israel's history, AND, the end of their story as God knows it will happen. Others open a window on part only. In particular, noting Jesus latter statement that 'My kingdom is not of this world', join up this
Luke 19:12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
and this
14 For [the kingdom of heaven is] as a man travelling into a far country, [who] called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods. 15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
The end of this parable has the servants entering into the joy of their lord. This joy is worth a study of its own, as Jesus speaks very specifically about joy.
Mark 12 begins 1 And he began to speak unto them by parables. A [certain] man planted a vineyard, and set an hedge about [it], and digged [a place for] the winefat, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country', and ends 9 What shall therefore the lord of the vineyard do? he will come and destroy the husbandmen, and will give the vineyard unto others. 10 And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner: 11 This was the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 12 And they sought to lay hold on him, but feared the people: for they knew that he had spoken the parable against them: and they left him, and went their way.
3) If you link this up with what happened to the prophets (Heb 11 and Luke 13:33), a picture is emerging, which makes sense of Matt 23, John 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace [be] unto you: as [my] Father hath sent me, even so send I you', and Luke 22:25 - 30. Note: 'my kingdom'. Just WHAT exactly is 'the kingdom of God'? (We know 'where' it is. Check John 4:22 'what we worship'.)
John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but NOW is my kingdom not from hence. [hence = here]
'NOW' was two thousand years ago. What, if anything, has changed?
Well for one, Jerusalem was destroyed at the end of 'this generation'. However, by then a new 'generation' had begun. This is another worthy study (Matt 1:1)
You can build your house upon the Rock of the words of Jesus Christ.
1. Are you saying that the church has replaced Israel?
2. Are you saying that God people both Jews as and gentile are now part of a spiritual kingdom that no longer has the dividing wall of hostility as Christ has removed it?
I ask these questions as personally i don't know how accurate replacement theology exegetical is so i have no opinion specifically as i have not studied much of this. But my incline is towards Gods kingdom being comprised of one people that includes Jews and gentiles. The nation of Israel as a whole will be granted into the body at some point i guess (Romans 11)
I would like to get more scriptural input from both sides if possible
I would like to get more scriptural input from both sides if possible
I can PM you a link to an excellent debate on YouTube if you're interested.
Please PM it would be highly appreciated
God Bless
Hi RainMan,
I can answer your questions, but I also have questions. For instance, have you ever read Deuteronomy all through from start to finish? You don't have to answer (me), but I do recommend it as a base text for this discussion.
I don't think so, but, that may depend on which 'Israel' and which 'church' you have in mind.1. Are you saying that the church has replaced Israel?
It also may depend whether you believe Paul's re-definition of 'Jew', in Romans 2, because if you don't, the rest of his thesis in Romans is incomprehensible.
He said: 28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.
You will find these are references to God's controversy with Israel's descendants, in the wilderness.
If you hold this with Peter and John's conclusion after their brush with religious authorities in Jerusalem, you will find yourself having to make a choice, as they did.
Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the [other] apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
If it's not too controversial to agree with Ephesians 2, yes I am.2. Are you saying that God people both Jews as and gentile are now part of a spiritual kingdom that no longer has the dividing wall of hostility as Christ has removed it?
Carter Conlon said something in a sermon I listened to recently (A Heap Of Frogs And A Stinking Land - can't find it on SI), which connects with this, and which I hadn't realised before. There is no text version either, so here is the scripture to which he is referring. It is from the time of the plagues in Egypt, but before Pharoah finally capitulated.
Exodus 8:20 And the LORD said unto Moses, Rise up early in the morning, and stand before Pharaoh; lo, he cometh forth to the water; and say unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Let my people go, that they may serve me. 21 Else, if thou wilt not let my people go, behold, I will send swarms [of flies] upon thee, and upon thy servants, and upon thy people, and into thy houses: and the houses of the Egyptians shall be full of swarms [of flies], and also the ground whereon they [are]. {swarms...: or, a mixture of noisome beasts, etc} 22 And I will sever in that day the land of Goshen, in which my people dwell, that no swarms [of flies] shall be there; to the end thou mayest know that I [am] the LORD in the midst of the earth. 23 And I will put a division between my people and thy people: to morrow shall this sign be.
Now though, there a new division between those who believe and those who do not. If you read Acts through, this crops up again and again. It is the theme of all John's writing, and to some extent Peter's, although he approaches from the angle of the faithfulness of God as much as our faith. At least, that's how Peter strikes me.
Acts 5:13 And of the rest durst no man join himself to them: but the people magnified them.
It's worth taking time over the Old Testament, to see the consistency with which God dealt with His people, both to bless those who sought Him, and destroy those who turned away, but, it is also clear there, that He's not finished revealing Himself to Israel. It would be likely that such a greater revelation was intended to cause a fresh response from those who recognised it, I believe.
Alive to God, you say
"but, it is also clear there, that He's not finished revealing Himself to Israel. It would be likely that such a greater revelation was intended to cause a fresh response from those who recognised it, I believe."
Could you clarify please. Are you speaking of a greater revelation to Israel as a nation (a national restoration), or to individual Jews (adding them to the church)?
David
Hi David,
The whole sentence is necessary to comprehend that last part of it.
It's worth taking time over the Old Testament, to see the consistency with which God dealt with His people, both to bless those who sought Him, and destroy those who turned away, but, it is also clear there, that He's not finished revealing Himself to Israel.
I had Jesus Christ in mind.Are you speaking of a greater revelation to Israel as a nation (a national restoration), or to individual Jews (adding them to the church)?
How would you answer your own questions, if He is the 'greater revelation' to which I was referring?
lets quit beating around the bush here, shall we?
lets just take a look at what has happened to your nation, Britain, the United Kingdom, England, one of the greatest historical persecutor's of the Jewish people, where is your nation now?
broke, broken down, millions upon millions of your youth moved down in the trenches of ww1, THEN if God hadnt confused the mind of hitler, he would have overrun England in the space of a month, instead he turned his demonic intent upon that other great murderer of the Jewish people, the Russians.
and we know what happened to them, they lost 60 plus million of their people fighting off the nazi hordes, who were in the process of slaughtering 6 million Jews, and what was Germany's wages for this murder?, they had their nation FLATTENED, its been estimated post ww2 that over 12 million Germans died, just from starvation and the ill health, and then the other half of germany was put under Russian communist tryanny.
AND THEN, when God put it in the hearts of the leaders of this world, to bless the Jewish people with a nation, who was the colonial overlord, that the Lord enabled a rag tag group of Jews to kick out of Israel?
it was England, and everysince that day, 1948, i dont know if you've noticed this, but England has been going down the tubes and fast.
your nation is broke and broken, its pratically pagan, and to boot, now England is being over run with muslims.
and lets consider the frontline arab states that have baying for Jewish blood since May of 1948, whats been their fate. Egypt? a dysfunctional military dictatorship reduced to begging for wheat over the past 30 years, Syria? Lebanon? Jordan, IRAQ? IRAN? saudi arabia, pakistan.
just consider this: in the past ten years, in the patent office, Egypt has submitted 116 something patents, Saudi Arabia, maybe 160...Israel, over 7600 patents...tiny Israel, and yet this is the only nation that has to beg the world for its very existence. While your nation England is on the very brink of catastrophe, along with that whole hell hole of Europe.
\\
i read of the arrogance of the ingrafted vines, you were tasked by God to make Israel envious of so great a salvation, and what have you and your forefathers done for 1700 years? made life hell for the Jewish people.
perverted the very Beautiful Name of Jesus, starting in rome, with that the son of the devil constantine, and popery and mary idolatry...and you all think you got out of rome with that senile old sinner, martin Luther?
no, protestantism is still very very much in rome, its rome lite, with its craven priests on TV begging for money, lusting for money, falling all over themselves to build even bigger 'churches'....and you show no humility as ingrafted vines?
how can i even say this? i look on this forum, and i see Paul, a mere man lifted up and quoted MORE than the Words of Messiah, Jesus. It's the truth and you know it, even to the point that people speak of "pauline christianity"....JUST THAT VERY PHRASE should have any God fearing individual quaking in FEAR.
"pauline christianity"....witless, God less IDOLATORS!
i've been praying on this, meditatating on this, and i actually got the confirmation, if i'm so "out of line", why is it, that i am the only Jew who follows Jesus on this forum?
if there are any others, SPEAK NOW.
but i bear no ill will, the accuser is a cunning foe, and he has blinded a good many people to do his will, but John saw his end in Revelations, he saw what is happening to this very day and will happen in the days to come.
i know my Bible, and everyday i get to know my Father God and His Son better, but i will not fling about Scripture like bits of rhetorical stones, as i've seen so so many times on this forum, or engage in the safe and sorry practice of speaking "christianese", but i can tell you this, you turn your back on the Jew, you turn your back on Israel, and you will be playing in hell.
what one of you has really suffered...murder, banishment, forced conversion, rape...by refusing to say the Sch'ma, by refusing to say "Schma Yi'sroel, Adonai elo chanu, Adonai Echad"? even though the next thing that happens to you is a sword cleveing you in two, or a bullet in the head? Millions upon millions of Jews have suffered this fate, because they would NOT renounce Yahweh.
why am i the only Jew here?
because you and your forefathers have failed miserably in your arrogance. You failed to make the Jew envious, yet refuse to admit it. You failed to make the Jew envious, because you followed Constantine, you followed rome and you bear the sin and stink of the world and nations.
The Last Days are coming, God has grown weary and impatient with those who have been given so much and returned so little.
Natan4Jesus, It might help you to not be so against Britian if you did more research into the history of the land of Israel.
America is no better off than Britian, my friend, whether morally, financially or any other way.
Wikipedia or http://www.zionism-israel.com/Balfour_Declaration_1917.htm
It's not a quick study - one would need to go link to link to link on either site - wikipedia or this link above.
Jesus made Paul His bond-slave on the Damascus Road in order to get Paul to write half of our New Testament.
Paul's letters were definitely seen by the Messiah, to both Jew and Gentile, as Most Necessary Scripture.
I could say I'm a Jew - if that makes you feel better - but I'd much more desire that you would respect Paul's authority to pen Scripture and that his authority came from Jesus, The Word of GOD made flesh - The True King of Israel....
Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
I just don't find "persecution from Britian" in any historical accounts.
If nothing else - at the least look up the UN Resolution # 181. That's just a small chip in the bucket - but it had backing from the very earliest "zionist jews" - as you'll find if further exploring this issue.
Peace to you.
please indulge my unlearned self but rather than go into too many scriptures i will simply say that in romans 7 we can see that the law incarnate has made a new covenant with Gods people thus annulling the former marriage. and in romans 11 we can see he has a plan for his former adulterous old wife to be re-grafted into this new marriage at an appointed time. I am not one to say if all the prophesies relating to Israel have been fulfilled and which ones now refer to a spiritual Israel as this is one area i need to study more.
I agree with what nathan said about england as it breaks my heart how england has become so reprobate. Im convinced england hate God. I feel like im treated like a mental case because i believe in jesus (mostly at work, even my own family who are supposed to be christians) but let us not forget that all we see is part of Gods word being fulfilled. A prayer for Gods word not to be fulfilled is not an effectual prayer (these are the last days).
Whatever happens to the land of israel im sure god will raise a reminant of them to be saved and how glorious that will be.
This was a recent post from Nathan4Jesus and I thought it was so good I would re insert it here again. I am sad to see so quick a departure from it.
makrothumia
"this wisdom dialogue, present in Job, between the five men, reminds me in a certain way, of how we all come together...and i dont mean that in a bad way. It just is. God is God and we are not.....and sometimes things just get messy here, and for my part i ask forgiveness to any contribution in this regard.
our theology might be "in order'...orthodox, etc, but we all frequently come to stalemates, or misunderstandings.
and thats okay, because in the final analysis, God spells It all out when He says:
"And he said to man,'Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom,
and to turn away from evil is understanding.'"
Job 28:28
respectfully and lovingly submitted, Eliphaz....or is it, Bildad, or Elihu, or Zophar, or Job....nope...its neil."
in romans 11 we can see he has a plan for his former adulterous old wife to be re-grafted into this new marriage at an appointed time.
Amen.
For the promises of God are without repentance.
Saints,
I am going to close this discussion at this point. I am asking all parties involved to please not argue or get "heated" in the topics discussed on SI. It won't help and just cause problems and divisions amongst brethren. God is leading us all into truth and I do personally believe that we should support the land of Israel and the nation of Israel for that is biblical but I cannot impose this believe on others by arguing.
As I have stated earlier the official position on SI is to support the Jewish people, to pray for them and to provoke them to jealousy through the Gospel. We are to love and despise in anyway the Jewish nation of Israel.
I am going to close this thread and ask that this discussion is not re-opened for a season.
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