why oh why do churches put people under the bondage of tithing when Paul did not teach it..there are a couple of good sermons on this..tithing,money,giving as new testament believers..we are under a new covenant and the ceremonial law does not apply to us as grafted in gentiles..
You probably know the answer to your own question. Most people on this site know that we are not under any law except the law of Christ...the law of Love. Christ is the end of the law to all who believe.
Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Tithing is a payment system tied to temple sacrifice. Today it is a religious tax if you will. It ensures that monthly budgets are met and that salaried people can expect to get their paycheck.
Old Testament - Payment
New Testament - Giving from the heart as you purpose in your heart and not as others purpose for you.
2Co 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Phi 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
That's about it, in a nutshell. You can get highly detailed with this subject, but we have been set free from the law because even though the law will never die, we died to it in Christ and are free to marry another (Christ).
Repeat the next verse 100 times and commit it to memory. ;-)
Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
brother you have quoted as one purposes in His heart..the word purposeth from the Greek (to bring forth for one's self, to choose for one's self before another )..those that demand 10 percent from pulpits have purposed for the congregation thus contradicting Pauls teaching on the choice of the givers heart.. giving as one prospers shall facilitate the needs of the temple according to Pauls teaching and not ten percent..lets look at the doctrine of the Apostles on the matter.
I don't usually read the greek. I figure if the greek was so important then all of Greece would be saved.
When you look at the whole of God's Word, and don't take just one verse or one word, then I believe God explains what He is saying. I prefer seeing what the preponderance of all scripture says, rather than becoming a greek scholar.
I have noticed all to often where Greek and Hebrew scholars change the clear meaning of God's Word.
Anyway, no slight to you intended. I often love to hear what people are finding in the Greek or Hebrew, I just don't spend much time in those languages.
Anyway, I think you are agreeing with me...
ha ha..what am i agreeing with ??? that any church that teaches tithing ( 10 percent ) is teaching what is contrary to Pauls doctrine...sure ill go with that.
The word "give" generously and freely
as GOD blesses and GOD gives is to be
taught and practiced in the Church !!
Tithing is the grease that oils the gears to keep the religious train on it's track.
It pays those who are hired...[unscriptural..] which maintains the clergy/laity..[ unscriptural...] [ we are a nation of priests, and we all have a ministry...] which supports the ONE MAN SHOW....[UNSCRIPTURAL ]AND THE BUILDING WITH IT'S PEWS...[spectators] unscriptural..and the predetermined meeting by the MASTER OF CEREMONIES, who is always the PASTOR.....[ unscriptural ]
[ every mention of Pastors in the new testament is PLURAL...except one time. ]
9 I wrote to the church, but Diotrephes, who loves to have the preeminence among them, does not receive us.
10 Therefore, if I come, I will call to mind his deeds which he does, prating against us with malicious words. And not content with that, he himself does not receive the brethren, and forbids those who wish to, putting them out of the church."
Yes, the one time a single pastor is mentioned describes to a T the spirit of the modern hireling professional we have in today's pulpits. Tithing supports this exact system, and keeps the ambitious building their churches. you notice I said "THEIR?"
This is a system that God is tearing down in these last days; mark my words. Those bent on maintaining it...[ mostly by receiving the tithe..] will not enter into the sheep gate of the lord, where brethren dwell in unity...
[ Psalm 133. ]
This is a system that God is tearing down in these last days; mark my words. Those bent on maintaining it...[ mostly by receiving the tithe..] will not enter into the sheep gate of the lord, where brethren dwell in unity...
"See, I have appointed you this day over the nations and over the kingdoms, To pluck up and to break down, To destroy and to overthrow, To build and to plant."(Jeremiah 1:10)
Oh tithing, ugh I just got done with this subject, infact I resigned as Youth Pastor of my former church simply because I don't believe tithing in the New Testament sense is biblical. I believe we are to give freely, Cheerfully, and in secret. Apparently the pastor disagreed and asked for my resignation which I joyfully gave him.
mguldner..sorry to hear that bro..but your right in what you believe.
No worries, God opened a door so I graciously took it. Besides I didn't be forced to submit to something I truly don't believe.
Tithing predated the law. Abraham tithed-he gave them to Mechizedek. He knew that he should, so he freely gave. I do not know that it is part of the ceremonial law. Malachi talked about robbing God and there is a promise given to those who give. God said He would bless us if we are faithful. Jesus, when rebuking the pharisees about keeping the littlest laws, and forgetting about mercy etc. did not rebuke them for tithing but commended them -Matthew 23:23 "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone." Since Jesus approved of tithing we cannot just say that it is OT. "God loveth a cheerful giver." If we are faithful to God, He will always take care of us. I've proved Him true.
People give when they want to. Many want the blessings of the church, but do not want to contribute to its support.
Jb1968..Circumcision pre-dated the law..so shall we continue in circumcision also.Tithing was very much a part of the ceremonial law my friend. Jesus when speaking of tithing in Matt 23:23 was highlighting their hypocrisy and do not forget that they were still under the law..so therefore of course Jesus commended them to keep it as He came not to abolish the law but to fulfil it.But things obviously would change when He died and was resurrected.Study the teaching of Paul my friend...blessings!!
"I believe we are to give freely, Cheerfully, and in secret. "
"I don't believe tithing in the New Testament sense is biblical."....mguldner
Psalms 29
1 Give unto the LORD, O you mighty ones,
Give unto the LORD glory and strength.
2 Give unto the LORD the glory due to His name;
Worship the LORD in the beauty of holiness.
When I think of giving to the Lord the "GLORY", I THINK OF MY SPIRITUAL DEVOTION; by faith I worship Him.
When I think of worshipping the Lord with my STRENGTH, I think of my substance, and my money, which He has so graciously provided to me. It's all His anyhow, so I want to live with an open hand, especially unto Him, in all circumstances.
JESUS SPEAKS... MATTHEW 6
1. "Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
2. Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
3. But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:
4. That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.".......................
"I believe we are to give freely, Cheerfully, and in secret. "...MGULDNER
Apparently, so did Jesus."Let thy ALMS be in secret."
We are all priests unto God, and the Priest class is the Universal ministry class, even unto the least of the brethren. A nation, if you will.
1Peter 2
9 "But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.
10 Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy."
We are all...[SISTERS INCLUDED! ] A CHOSEN PEOPLE, A ROYAL PRIESTHOOD, AND A HOLY NATION.
There is no need to support a "ministry class." It just creates a separation between the brethren; a division of the qualified and the not qualified. Men use their position to build their kingdoms, every time. Horsey manure.
The true:
Acts 20..Paul's exhortation and example about money to the Ephesian PASTORS;
"Now I commit you to God and to the word of his grace, which can build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified.
33 I have not coveted anyone’s silver or gold or clothing.
34 You yourselves know that these hands of mine have supplied my own needs and the needs of my companions.!!!!
35 In everything I did, I showed you that by this kind of hard work we must help the weak, remembering the words the Lord Jesus himself said: ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’ ” !!!!...PAUL THE APOSTLE.
BY WORKING WITH HIS HANDS, PROVIDING AS THE FATHER HE WAS, PAUL EXPLAINED THE NEW TESTAMENT PATTERN OF GIVING AND RECEIVING.
THE PASTORS WORK AND GIVE TO THE WEAK, AND RECEIVE A BLESSING.
Cheapskates also use the scripture to justify not giving to God's work and as a result they give next to nothing.
They will only give when "led". Not surprisingly they are almost never led to give anything of substance.
I have tithed for years because I believe it to be Biblical and I want to please the Lord. Also, I desire to support the work of God. No one twists my arm to give, and I drop it in the offering plate just like others who contribute. God has always taken care of us even when things were tight. We put God first and He has made sure all the bills were paid.
I have no clue who Tom Brown is, but this is a good answer.
"Is Tithing New Testament?
Today’s Question: One area that I am researching is the Tithe and offering. I know very well what Malachi 3:7-12 teaches that according to the Law if a believer falls short then they have robbed God and fall under a curse. Paul wrote to the Galatians in Galatians. 3:13 telling them they had been redeemed from the cruse of the Law.
The main point of Malachi 3 is often over looked. The prophet was telling the Jews to turn their hearts to God and give with love so the ministries would be fully supplied. I know that God wants us to give—and I believe in the law of reciprocity—and I know we need to support our local church, orphans, widows, etc. Here’s my question shouldn’t support and giving be from the heart and not because we are under a mandatory legal system? What are your views on Tithes, offerings and giving?
Brother Keith
Bible Answer: You asked a great question. I get this question all the time.
Tithing began before the law was introduced. The Law simply regulated the tithe. Abraham tithed to Melchizedek, 400 years before the time of Moses and the Law, and according to Romans 4:12 we are to walk in the footsteps of the faith of Abraham. If tithing was good for him, it should be good for us, too.
We give tithes like Abraham gave them—not by the Law but by faith. And beside that, if the people of God paid ten percent before the Law, and ten percent under the Law, shouldn't we, who live by grace, be doing any less when we have a better covenant (Heb 7:22).
There is a passage in Hebrews, which deals with this issue directly. It is Hebrews 7:8:
In the one case, the tenth is collected by men who die; but in the other case, by him who is declared to be living.
Melchizedek received Abraham’s tithe. The Hebrew writer shows that Melchizedek is a prefigure of Christ. We can conclude that just as Abraham gave a tithe to Melchizedek we give a tithe to Christ who is declared to be living.
Some people think this is a new issue. It is as old as the second century when more and more Gentiles were being converted. The early Jewish believers had no problem with tithing since they had done it under the Law and gave it to the priests. They simply gave their tithe to the elders of the church and did by love. However, as the church became less Jewish this issue came up to the church fathers. They answered the question of tithing with Matthew 23:23:
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.
Notice Jesus said, "You should have practiced the latter (justice, mercy and faithfulness), without neglecting the former (tithing)." The fathers argued, and rightful so, that Jesus word ends the discussion. Since Jesus said not to neglect the former—being tithing—then no believer should neglect tithing. I wholeheartedly agree!
Some argue that Jesus words are not applicable to us today, because Jesus was under the Law and spoke to those under the Law. Their theory goes something like this: Jesus was giving an instruction to the Jews so His words are not binding to us.
The problem with this interpretation is that these teachers are bringing Christ down to the level of a Jewish prophet or Teacher of the Law. Jesus is the Word of God made flesh, so this means every word that comes out of His mouth is eternal. He cannot say anything without it being “spiritual law” and everlasting. Jesus emphasizes this point by saying, “Heaven and earth may pass away, but my words will never pass away” (Matt 24:35). These supposed Bible teachers are making the words of Jesus pass away—obsolete and out of date. Besides, these same teachers pick and choose which teachings of Christ in the gospels they believe is applicable to us. I notice that even these teachers agree that most of Christ’ teachings are for us; however, because they are predisposed against tithing, they have had to come up with an excuse for not obeying the clear word of Christ in Mathew 23:23.
As a believer, you have to show who your Lord is! Is it the teachers who tell you tithing is not New Testament and who tell you that Jesus word on the subject is out of date; or is it Jesus who clearly told us not to neglect tithing? No modern teacher has the right to tell you to disobey Jesus instruction on tithing. Period!
Even if the only passages in the New Testament was Jesus word, then that would be sufficient, however, I want to present other New Testament passages on the subject. Let’s look at Paul’s teaching on giving.
Paul also uses the pattern of tithing under the law in 1 Corinthians 9:13-14 and says,
Don't you know that those who work in the temple get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.
Paul argues that just as the priests got their food from the tithes of the people, so the preachers should live the same way. This passage clearly shows the mentality of the apostle and his understanding of carrying over the concept of tithing into the church. The passage often used to contradict this is 2 Corinthians 9:7:
Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.
The argument goes something like this: "Each believer has a right to decide for himself what to give and should not be told what percentage he should contribute."
The problem with this argument is that the above passage is not dealing with giving to support the church, but rather giving to the poor. Under the Law, giving to the poor was a freewill offering. The Law commanded freewill offerings as well as tithes:
But you are to seek the place the LORD your God will choose from among all your tribes to put his Name there for his dwelling. To that place you must go; there bring your burnt offerings and sacrifices, your tithes and special gifts, what you have vowed to give and your freewill offerings, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks. (Deut 12:5-6)
It is quite inconsistent for people to appeal to freewill offerings yet claim that tithing has been abolished. Both tithing and freewill offerings were incorporated in the Law as the above passage shows, but they preceded the Law, thus they both should be practiced. The burden of proof is placed on those who teach that tithing has been abolished. If so, where in the New Testament does it clearly say that tithing has been abolished?
One last thing, notice the resemblance of the language Paul uses in the first passage in Galatians and compare it with the Old Testament passage about tithing:
Anyone who receives instruction in the word must share all good things with his instructor. (Gal 6:6)
And you and the Levites and the aliens among you shall rejoice in all the good things the LORD your God has given to you and your household. When you have finished setting aside a tenth of all your produce in the third year, the year of the tithe, you shall give it to the Levite, the alien, the fatherless and the widow, so that they may eat in your towns and be satisfied. (Deut 26:11-12)
Galatians 6 is dealing with giving to the teacher of the gospel and he uses the same language about the Levites receiving the tithe of the people and he calls it "all good things." This is pretty good internal evidence that the early church tithed to the ministers of the gospel, although, I admit it is not explicit evidence."
hi, i was waiting on annanias and his wife to give their views to make this complete. people want the power that the church had in acts when they held everything in common but hold on to every penny they can. if you want to know if a man loves his new girlfriend look at his check book.how about the love of Christ and His people...the love for the widowed and orphans...the love for the poor... the missionary zeal...the love for the community you live in. maybe this is why the jewish people prosper financially in most areas...the tithe is given in advance for the year based on the previous year in some orth.syn. jimp
"Cheapskates also use the scripture to justify not giving to God's work and as a result they give next to nothing.
They will only give when "led". Not surprisingly they are almost never led to give anything of substance."Rev_Enue"
...................................................
Really! How do you know this? In context,then are you saying that those led to give are cheapskates, that pretend to be a giver, so that they can chinse God?
You either have a universal but bitter prophetic gift, or you are exceedingly ignorant.
Those I know who give by being led, and in secret, are laviously extravavagant in their giving...and exceedingly joyful and loving.[ I know because they have given to me in secret on missions, etc.]
But I'll tell them what you know about them. I'm sure they will find this statement as profound as myself.
You are so friendly brothernom. You exude so much love and understanding.
How did you become so grate?
maybe this is why the jewish people prosper financially in most areas
The Jewish people prosper financially because the Lord promised to bless them, and He is a covenant keeping God. It's not because they DO anything.
I know many Christians who tithe on absolutely every cent they make, and do not prosper financially in the slightest.
Now to say that people who don't believe in tithing don't give much of anything... That's kind of dangerous ground man. Unfortunately they ones who give will not blow their own trumpet to try and prove this statement incorrect.
PS Mathew, you ever listen to that sermon I sent you?
()Notice Jesus said, "You should have practiced the latter (justice, mercy and faithfulness), without neglecting the former (tithing)." The fathers argued, and rightful so, that Jesus word ends the discussion. Since Jesus said not to neglect the former—being tithing—then no believer should neglect tithing. I wholeheartedly agree!)
Hi Jesus was correct of course in saying that Jews should have not neglected tithing because it was their obligation under the law at the time of speaking.(the law had not been fulfilled)However after Pentecost that changed because of Jesus Death and resurrection.I think its interesting to the best of my knowledge that the first example of giving after the birth of the Church was not tithing.
My point being I suppose is that this portion of scripture can not be used to argue for tithing after Pentecost because as both Jesus and his Jewish audience were talking about obligations under the law.
Respectfully Staff
Well I'll take a shot at this one although not in a conventional sense.
What did Jesus teach?
Matthew 28:16-20 says:
“All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to OBEY EVERYTHING THAT I HAVE COMMANDED YOU. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
Did He COMMAND the tithe? No.
He mentioned to the Pharisees that it was right for them to bring the tithe however, the context of this teaching is during a time before His death and resurrection which means the law was still a factor in His response. Since He fulfilled the law and gave us a better covenant, the law in no longer relevant because we live by a higher standard.
How did He send out people?
Luke 10:1-12 says:
1 After this the Lord appointed 72 others. He sent them out two by two ahead of him. They went to every town and place where he was about to go.
2 He told them, "The harvest is huge, but the workers are few. So ask the Lord of the harvest to send out workers into his harvest field.
3 "Go! I am sending you out like lambs among wolves. 4 Do not take a purse or bag or sandals. And don't greet anyone on the road.
5 "When you enter a house, first say, 'May this house be blessed with peace.' 6 If someone there loves peace, your blessing of peace will rest on him. If not, it will return to you. 7 Stay in that house. Eat and drink anything they give you. Workers are worthy of their pay. Do not move around from house to house.
8 "When you enter a town and are welcomed, eat what is set down in front of you. 9 Heal the sick people who are there. Tell them, 'God's kingdom is near you.'
10 "But what if you enter a town and are not welcomed? Then go into its streets and say, 11 'We wipe off even the dust of your town that sticks to our feet. We do it to show that God isn't pleased with you. But here is what you can be sure of. God's kingdom is near.'
12 "I tell you this. On judgment day it will be easier for Sodom than for that town."
Notice he tells them to take nothing with them OR to demand payment, although they are worthy of pay.
This contradicts the teaching of paying tithes, the Old Covenant was 'bring this tithe, bring that tithe' but in the New Covenant He demands more, He wants you. My problem with the teaching related to paying a tithe in this dispensation is it has become a win-win situation for pastors who love money and 'converts' who don't want to do anything for God. The lover of money demands the tithe (I'm not assuming that EVERY PERSON who teaches tithing is of this spirit so please save your fingers :-) ) so that he can 'finance the gospel' and the tither pays the tithe so he doesn't have to spread the gospel (or feel conviction about not doing so). Win-win...
Additionally, anyone who teaches paying tithes must go to the Old Covenant to do so. If this was a cornerstone of the New Covenant (as many preach) more would have written about it, but this is not so. To assume that this practice continues on in the New Covenant is not truth (in my opinion) because if we take this practice forward we must take all of the law forward, including the sacrifice, the temple, and the whole ball of wax, this is consistent with Paul's position in the Epistles because the Old Testament 'believers of YHWH' were not free to choose which parts of the law we should obey and discard.
I can't see that unlimited funding would help to preach the gospel to all nations although I do see a need for bible translation etc. However, IMHO I can see that a sold out church WOULD fulfill the Great Commission because they lack nothing, they are already in the highways and byways.
In the end it still comes down to Jesus wanting us.
People will always have an excuse for being cheap (lovers of money) that's the nature of Adam, but through God's grace we can overcome that nature.
I have to agree with the above folks, there are 2 requirements: give cheerfully, give secretly.
Thank you very much for listening to me!
In Christ,
Earl J
Good, this is getting alot of feedback.
No one said that if you tithe, you will be wealthy. Since when did the death and resurrection of Christ throw out the OT? Strict dispensationalists would say this I know. Maybe the 10 commandments should be pitched too. Maybe Abraham (which preceded the law) was wrong to give tithes.
Concerning being "led" to give, some DO use that excuse NOT to give, but they have plenty of money and credit cards to buy things for themselves. No wonder some cannot afford to tithe. What about the widow who gave all she had? Oh, that was before Christ died and rose again.
The spirit of the law is better than the letter. According to Jer. and Eze., when God writes His law on our hearts, we have the "want to" to please the Lord.
You know, I have agreed with everyone up to this point about tithing NOT being a New Testament command, but you know, just as I got to typing this, I have a change of mind on the issue.
Consider this verse:
Luke 18:22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
This is more than tithing folks, it's called Love in Action.
We see this in the early Church how that many gave into the Church for the distribution of the wealth that was collected for those that had nothing within the Church.
Any poor person looking in that day would want to join themselves to that body, wouldn't you? There is no want for bread, all had plenty.
There is no set limit as to what we should give, BUT, and that is a big BUT, when we really love, love gives out. And that can be on any level of resources that we have on hand, including our selves.
Amen snuf! God help us to invest ourselves in others. Jesus said in Matthew 6:3 "But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:".
Good thoughts Murray,
Since our "tithes" go to our high priest in heaven, Jesus,the money itself cannot go to him. But treasure in Heaven can.
Luke 18:22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
Another passage worth consideration is Luke 16:9
"And I say to you, make friends for yourselves by means of the wealth of unrighteousness, so that when it fails, they will receive you into the eternal dwellings."
The actual money will pass away, but the spiritual treasure in heaven will not. And it all is for Jesus, for his Glory,so that he receives what he deserves.
All our money, and possesions, yes, our very lives, are to be laid upon the altar to Jesus to use as he pleases.
We had a visitor one time to our house fellowship and he was from Northern California. Got saved in the 70's and self-admitted that he was backslidden and had a gluttony problem for 35 of his 40 years with the Lord. He said that he was delivered, lost 200lbs and his last 5 years have been "tremendous" with the Lord. He moved to Israel and lives about 20 minutes north of Jerusalem.
Not sure how he found our fellowship but he showed up one night and we welcomed him as we do all men. He ate and fellowshipped with us and then we later moved to the living room for continued fellowship, worship and whatever the Lord wanted to do.
Another brother in our fellowship, after sharing, asked our visitor if he would like to share what God is doing in Jerusalem. So, our visitor started sharing a little about his personal testimony (which I have mentioned) and really not much about what he is doing in Jerusalem or what the Lord is doing. But after about 30 minutes of talking he veered off into HRM teaching. I am familiar with Hebrew Roots Movement buzz words and teachings because I had a dear friend go off into it. But, I let him continue to see where he was going. He prophesied over two of our teenagers (trying to establish some preeminence amongst us and impress the innocent) and then he spoke to my wife and I. He was half prophesying about us and like Jimp, mentioned Ananias and Sapphira and the context was that we are holding back from the Body and should not hold back from the Body. Hmmm, interesting, I thought. Well, he dropped very obvious "hints" after that, regarding how he was living by faith and trusting God. In other words, we now had a fund raiser in our midst. He did not fool me at all. Very clever. Beat you down, make you feel bad then collect.
I told my wife later, that Satan was trying to use him in the meeting to marginalize me and keep me quiet. This man did not know about me, but the enemy did. And to be sure, I am absolutely nothing. But after 33 years I do have a little discernment and I am a grown man with children and I am not going to let someone malign the Word of God and take advantage of His sheep. So, his attempt to marginalize me and hijack our meeting did not work. I could not let him go anymore on the HRM teaching. We have a custom in our house church that you don't bring a teaching (especially your first visit) without addressing the brothers in the fellowship first about it. Share all you want, but don't teach if you are a stranger to our group. Anyway, I confronted him gently yet firmly about his teaching and without going to much into it, I told him that it was getting late and we all had to go home. I started to get up and he actually told me to sit down that he was not finished yet. Such audacity. I nevertheless insisted and we broke up the meeting. It was a Thursday evening. Many of us had work the next day. I heard from him the next day from an email he sent me. He sent me his website and encouraged me to subscribe to his newsletter.
I have also run into this same accusation (Ananias and Sapphira) from others and one thing that I have noticed is that they are usually not very well off, not working, won't work or "living by faith". I don't know Jimp's station in life at all, but it really does not matter (I do however wonder why he would use Ananias and Sapphira against brothers). But what matters is that this is a very sad judgment leveled at brothers and sisters.
Another post I saw below was by someone whose handle looks like he is a Reverend. I don't know if he is a Reverend or not. Rev_Enue looks like reverend to me, though. At any rate I have also had experiences with Reverends who think their congregations are stingy and cheapskates. It is a horrible characterization of the brethren. But when you are dependent on men and feigning dependence on God, what is in your heart will eventually come out. I am glad all this is being revealed for all to see. I said in another post that once you "touch" the mammon, the attitude of the heart comes out. I experienced this face to face with another "Pastor". He called people cheapskates and stingy but when I mentioned to him that the church takes in a lot of money and we should sow it back into the saints lives, the look on his face was one of rage towards me. Man!! What a moment that was.
The third post is about a brother who tithes all the time and is blessed. I am glad that the brother is blessed. But, I want him to know that God is not a debtor to any man. If you think you are blessed because you are giving money to God you are sadly mistaken.
I had a dear friend in the institutional church that told me that he tithed every Sunday for 14 years and was very disappointed. First of all, that is a long time to do that with such perfection and not miss a Sunday. Pretty impressive, I must admit. I asked him why he was disappointed and he told me that he was disappointed that several things that he was praying for have never materialized. He eventually got on staff at his church (something that was a big goal of his) but he was not living like the other staff members who seemed to be so blessed. He was not in the neighborhood that he wanted to be in, and of course his house was not the kind of house he wanted to live in, his cars were old and his job and salary were meager. He was able to have a house and a job and put food on the table, but he was expecting more in exchange for his tithe.
I could see several things: First, this "perfect record" of tithing, built up pride in him, thinking that he was quite spiritual. Yet, for all his spirituality, he became angry at God for not coming through with the GOODS. Kind of like Rev_Enue in that respect. He always gave 10%, and it never occurred to him that God really owns 100%. So, if God ever wanted anymore, well, that was just not in his doctrine. So, if he heard a voice that encouraged him to give more, he would think it was the devil. His doctrine was 10% and no more. Sad isn't it.
These three profiles I have run into and every one of them idict God and speak evil against His very nature.
This is man's religious system and this is the fruit that man's religious system produces.
Give cheerfully as you purpose in your heart and give in secret and don't ever let anyone compel you to do anything that you have not purposed in your heart. That is manipulation.
Since when did the death and resurrection of Christ throw out the OT?
With all due respect brother I didn't see anyone here saying that we should throw out the whole Old Covenant, that's a straw man.
For the record I used to be a strict tither ((Pharisee) please don't project this on yourself, I'm talking about me) but I'm not that way anymore, I used to feel guilty every week when I couldn't make my tithe because of the condemnation that the law brings. I'm not talking about not being able to give because of extravagant living (heck, the wife and kids and I were already eating Ramen noodles), I'm talking either paying the rent or tithing. If I cant take care of my wife at kids in a Christlike manner then I have no business exporting my faith elsewhere.
Jesus said the The Father caused it to rain on the righteous and the unrighteous, are the unrighteous financially secure because they tithe? No.
Looking at people through the lens of their financial position is a cancer because only the rich could be considered 'faithful', which is the exact opposite of Jesus' teachings.
Oh, that was before Christ died and rose again. The spirit of the law is better than the letter
Your sarcasm is caustic brother, check your heart.
With Love,
Earl J
pilgrim777
I am not a reverend Rev_Enue is my handle. It is a play on words that I invented
to characterize the philosophy of so many modern day preachers in North America.
Boy that's a relief!! I thought you were a Reverend calling the sheep, CHEAPSKATES. So, you are just a Sheep calling the Sheep CHEAPSKATES.
Thanks!
Earl,
The second quote was from two diff. paragraphs.
The second sentence makes reference to what the prophets tell us God will do to our hearts. It is a heart issue. We are saved by faith alone, apart from the deeds of the law. We have a changed nature and have the "want" to, to please God. That was what I was making mention to.
The first sentence was used in sarcasm. She gave her all. No offense was meant.
Just some thoughts:
1) Where in the NT is it taught that we are supposed to tithe money, instead of our "food stuff?"
2) Where is it said in the NT that of the all the "five-fold" ministries, that we are to give tithes to exclusively to pastors? Why not apostles? prophets? evangelists? teachers? Why pastors only?
3) Why are tithes used to pay for building programs, pay salaries, etc., when in the OT, it could only literally be to put food in the stomach of another? Where do pastors get the idea that they can do with the tithes as they please?
4) Why is the OT practice of burning a tenth of the tithe in fire abandoned?
I've heard a lot of sermons on tithing, yet I've never once heard these issues addressed.
The thing that the Lord has taught me through the Scriptures:
Jesus Christ is my tithe.
:-)
Jesus Christ is my tithe.
How can that be?? you give 10% of Jesus?
Tithing isn't in the New Testament. It's an old Testament law.
Jimp wrote:
i was waiting on annanias and his wife to give their views to make this complete. people want the power that the church had in acts when they held everything in common but hold on to every penny they can.
It's wasn't because they didn't give "all", it was because they said they gave all and lied about it.
We have a changed nature and have the "want" to, to please God. That was what I was making mention to. The first sentence was used in sarcasm.
I hear what you are saying brother and agree with you.
Again, I'm talking about me and my problem slipping into a legalistic mindset. On purpose I quit figuring out what 'percentage' I give because I fall into a legalistic trap of trying to meet a quota rather than keeping a right spirit. I do give to several ministries that I believe in (as well as alms) but my wife keeps track of the details(she's a bookkeeper).
Please pray for me in this regards!
I'm not trying to be argumentative in this issue, just giving a reason that I believe the way that I do.
In Christ,
Earl J
That's why we have fellow believers- to pray for one another. If satan can get us into a certain mindset, he's got us. What you may be weak in, I may be stronger. But, what I am weak in, you may be stronger. Let us all pray for one another and live truly for Christ.
That's what is great about the Gospel, God changes our hearts. It's not about towing the line out of rote obedience, but about relationship. I desire to please my wife because I love her. In like manner, I want to please my heavenly Father because I love Him.
hi, as the law is the narrow way and grace is the white line on the narrow road so giving out duty is to giving out of love.i agree that if it is between me feeding my family or giving a tithe that i would feed my family as the word teaches us so that i would not be worse than an infidel.if i see a dear brother in need i will give what i can to help that brother and the church body will not recieve.i have been a christian for over 45 years and God has provided miracle after miracle in monies for me and my family.i live more modestly than 98% of most people and know beyond a doubt that Gods principle of giving and receiving works and most of the time 10 fold.if you dont give out of the joy of the Lord nothing will happen.jimp one testimony: i preaced sun morning and evening in a large church and we were fed. later we were told that the treasurer and the pastor and the secretary were all on the same trip and we did not receive anything.living by faith is hard when this happens and boy did i murmur to the Lord...a year later i was driving in that area and my water pump went out and guess who was behind me.. the pastor of that church and he pulled over and told us to come eat with him and that he would call his mechanic and take care of the tow and the bill.and He did...
Wow jimp, that is an awesome story!
I've been there myself as well and it's at times like these that I really got to see God's love.
One time I went on a missions trip with other (non-paid) interns, I was the only married intern and my wife and I literally had ZERO dollars on the day that I was to leave. My wife was crying because she knew that I was leaving without money to eat for 3 days (nowadays I could live on fat stores strategically placed around my body :-)). I told her that I had prayed about it and the Lord would provide for me. I literally went 'into the secret place' and asked God to provide, boy was I happy! I left on the missions trip and told NO ONE my financial predicament and felt that God told me that I would return with more money than I left with, I don't believe in loud faith or poor mouthing.
It was amazing how people (the Lord) bought my food for every meal, without knowing the state of my finances. On the way home the pastor gave me a $20 bill for the return trip. Thus I had more money upon my return than I left with.
I can't tell this story without tears in my eyes about an Amazing Savior! These are the times when God really shows us how much He cares for us!
In Christ,
Earl J.
The Churches today are like a business. It's hardly about helping anyone. I remember sometime ago in a prominent church where a woman gave her tithe for many years. When she fell on hard times she was not able to pay that tithe, she went to the Church for some help in paying her rent, the Church looked over it's books and found that she missed two months tithing and they refused to help her. This shocked the community, but like everything, time passes, and it's forgotten.Many want the blessings of the church, but do not want to contribute to its support
It's sad to say this but the soup kitchen here is run by a Catholic woman, and the food banks are given by most supermarket chains. And the Church of Jesus Christ is refusing to help one of their own because she couldn't pay her tithe, something is deeply wrong with this picture.
I've seen guys curse and swear and drink like theirs no tomorrow and when someone needs something, they have their wallets out while we sit on the side lines thinking about whether or not we should give.
Ok, but we are talking about tithing not being a New Testament practice or law.
If tithing (jewish law) was so important then why was it not brought up in the Jerusalem council regarding what the Gentiles should follow. If this is the only law that we Gentiles are supposed to follow, I don't see any mention of it in Acts 15.
Act 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
People get troubled with words today, too. Their souls are subverted by any law that someone puts on them. Not just the law of tithing.
Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
Act 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
I am glad you guys love to tithe and get blessed, but this is not a command from the Lord and there are new believers listening in. Let's not teach error.
Lord, deliver us from Churchianity.
And I can't help but read it with tears Brother. We serve a caring God. Jimp, that was great man, loved it.I can't tell this story without tears in my eyes about an Amazing Savior!
Brother Pilgrim, I don't think we are saying that we ought to tithe. We are just using the word tithe for the word giving, and I believe that I speak for everyone that we want to give above and beyond the said tithe because we joyfully want to bless others. Whether it's to the Church you attend, or to the guy on the street. Whether it's once a month, or once a week, or once a year. There is no set number, it's whatever every man has purposed in his heart to do with whatever has been given to him.
"To whom much is given, much is required."
What amazes me about this whole "tithing" thing is its only tithing that seems to be the issue. If you believe that Law is still active then do you keep the dietary laws, and the cleansing laws, or the no cutting hair off the sides of your face law?
Jesus came and brought two laws Love for God and Love for your neighbor. IF you are doing these two things you are fulfilling the entire law.
Yet another thing to keep in mind is we can't properly give a tithe to a church why? because unless your leaders are Levites they can't technically receive the tithes, on top of the fact that the tithe can't be properly taken care of in our modern sense because we don't have the Jewish temple.
What breaks me heart about this topic is that it provoke dissension about what exactly? MONEY. To me that is just gross. If you believe 10% to a church organization is correct fine and dandy. I believe we are free to give and lead by the Holy Spirit of Love to give to those that we see and the Spirit leads us to give to.
I believe "tithing" doesn't change God's blessing towards us but a right attitude will bless us emensly. We can't change how much God loves and accepts us and even blesses us by doing ANYTHING He loves, forgives, and blesses according to His Grace and this my friends is infinite.
I am seriously burnt out on the tithing delemma and see an unnessecary problem if people would just Love and understand that God looks and sees the intentions of the heart of man and knows and judges, we can not be the judge. I can call you a cheapsake but this is judgment and with the amount I judge I too will be judged back.
Again my heart breaks when I see this kind of craziness and I have seen it a lot lately in my personal life its kind of the cherry on top to see it here I suppose.
How can that be?? you give 10% of Jesus?
According to Paul, in 1 Cor 15, Jesus is our "first fruits." So, I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say Jesus is my tithe.
*edited for clarification*
I agree. I have been blessed materially, spiritually and physically and mentally, and I never gave a tithe.I believe "tithing" doesn't change God's blessing towards us but a right attitude will bless us immensely
In fact, every single time I tried to set up some sort of a schedule to pay my tithes, I always had a check in my spirit that what I was doing did not please God. However, when a need arose and I spontaneously gave, I felt the joy in doing that. But it always bothered me why I couldn't do the former. And after years of wondering, I had realized that the true worshipers worship the Father in Spirit and in TRUTH. All motives and intents must be weighed and if they are founding wanting, there will be no blessing.
Very good points from many of you. I thought I was correct in thinking that many on SI don't see tithing as scriptural.
When you think of the person of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the liberty of the Spirit and the understanding that no man is justified by the works of the law, tithing is pretty ridiculous nevertheless it is a serious stumblingblock to many. Sad that preachers will teach that you tithe before you pay your bills. I have also heard, "If you don't tithe, God will get it from you some way".
Brothertom really nailed it here.
Tithing is the grease that oils the gears to keep the religious train on it's track.
It pays those who are hired...[unscriptural..] which maintains the clergy/laity..[ unscriptural...] [ we are a nation of priests, and we all have a ministry...] which supports the ONE MAN SHOW....[UNSCRIPTURAL ]AND THE BUILDING WITH IT'S PEWS...[spectators] unscriptural..and the predetermined meeting by the MASTER OF CEREMONIES, who is always the PASTOR.....[ unscriptural ]
[ every mention of Pastors in the new testament is PLURAL...except one time. ]
9 I wrote to the church, but Diotrephes, who loves to have the preeminence among them, does not receive us.
10 Therefore, if I come, I will call to mind his deeds which he does, prating against us with malicious words. And not content with that, he himself does not receive the brethren, and forbids those who wish to, putting them out of the church."
Yes, the one time a single pastor is mentioned describes to a T the spirit of the modern hireling professional we have in today's pulpits. Tithing supports this exact system, and keeps the ambitious building their churches. you notice I said "THEIR?"
This is a system that God is tearing down in these last days; mark my words. Those bent on maintaining it...[ mostly by receiving the tithe..] will not enter into the sheep gate of the lord, where brethren dwell in unity...
[ Psalm 133. ]
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