Authority and Submission by K.P. Yohannan

This is a subject with incredible, potential problems and difficulties. The Bible teaches very strongly about obeying authorities over us. The entire kingdom of God is meant to function in an orderly manner under God’s plan of authority. But there is an extreme teaching on submission to leaders in authority, wives to husbands, children to parents, and political or religious leaders to others that can be dangerous, unless we balance it with the fact that each individual must know that he is also responsible to God, His law and His Word. The balance must be kept between submission and individual guidance.

Romans 13:1–2 (NIV) says, “Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against authority is rebelling against what God has instituted.” First Thessalonians 5:12 (NIV) says, “Now we ask you, brothers, to respect those who work hard among you, who are over you in the LORD and who admonish you.” Clearly God’s plan is that we live in submission to God-given authority. Watchman Nee, in his book Spiritual Authority, specifically states that in Scripture, rebellion, either passive or active, is sin.

Pay attention. Lucifer became a devil. He was not created a devil. In fact, he began as the most amazing, beautiful archangel, the highest of all angels created by God. But he became the devil as a result of rebellion and insubordination. His pride led him to step out from under God’s authority and set himself up as ruler.

On a side note, I do not have any grudges against pastors, brothers or sisters who are part of a traditional church setting. My only grief and grudge is with that "system" of church government which I believe has hindered the Church for centuries. I see my brothers and sisters who are under the clergy-laity structure as victims who are hindered and held captive to traditions and systems of men.

Thank you for sharing your heart with us. I agree there is a lack of equipping and realesing the body of Christ in the work of ministry. But in Scripture in the New Testament there are "many" references to those that are honored above the rest, overseers, elders, deacons, who labor hard in the word, prayer, good deeds. One's that watch out for the souls of others etc. I feel it is very important to reconize "leadership" in the body of Christ. "First of all apostles." But the apostles will suffer more then others, therefore in the kingdom of God true leadership is servanthood. This is not clearly exhibited in modern churches much.

So I agree with you pointing out the lack in the current traditional settings but let us not throw out the baby with the bathwater. I believe there is clear biblical reference and support for biblical servanthood leadership and authority in the body of Christ.

May God start to lead the church into the true biblical role of leadership that serves, gives, goes under, preffers other before themselves, type of elders, apostles, pastors, etc.

Jesus Christ is the head of the Church. So we can all at lead begin to agree with this! :)

Is Jesus' example to us clear enough to recognize that leader/follower and completey willful submission are part and parcel to the way God has established for the way things to operate rightly?

Sadly, many people placed in positions of authority weild their own (organisation's) dictates.
Is this pleasing God?

Worse are those who think that just because things don't go according to the way they consider it should be, they become stubborn fools in the process of seeking their own way.
Is this pleasing God?

Consider the root word from which we get the word Protestant: protest.

The so-called (organizational) 'church' we see today and many who participate are by second nature schizmatics. Horribly, those who thought at one time that they would be different, and true to "the faith once and for all time established", through generational compromise and inconsistency have fallen into the very errors that they rebelled from in the first place. Rather than in all sincerity serving the Lord with clean hands from pure heart, we find more and more people with more and more problems ending in failures and ultimately destruction. The fruit borne clearly shows that though they say they know God . . . REALLY He never knew them. . . "having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof."

This all results
--beginning with the orthodox Roman Catholics, through the breakdown of Protestantism even to the most individualistic of home churches--
through comparing ourselves with ourselves.

The structures and organizational model we see today started when men took God's authority as their own and lorded their dictates over the masses. Church government became no different from the manner used to govern earthly kingdoms.

It's amusing to hear others talk about heaven and rewards after God's judgement seat because 99.9% of the time these idealogies are based on structure, form, and dogma relative to this present age.

Is this what the kingdom of God on earth (established in heaven) will be like?

Let's look at what Paul says:

"...when anything is exposed by the light, it becomes visible, for anything that becomes visible is light.

Therefore it says,
“Awake, O sleeper,
and arise from the dead,
and Christ will shine on you.”

Look carefully then how you walk, not as unwise but as wise, making the best use of the time, because the days are evil. Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but:
be filled with the Spirit,
addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs,
singing and making melody to the Lord with your heart, giving thanks always and for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ,
submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ.
Eph. 5.13-21 (ESV)

How can anybody say they are obeying God in rebellion to what has been estabished by God in the first place?

How can anyone be being filled with the Spirit speaking their own mind (from which THEIR OWN thoughts and concerns stem)?

How can anyone give thanks always and for everything to our Father in the purpose, authority, and power of the Lord Jesus Christ going their own way doing what seems right in their own eyes?

How does any person revere Christ in submission to one another by walking in rebellion?

". . .Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to heed than the fat of rams. For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. . ."
I Sam 15.22c-23b (NKJV)

Who will be called great in the kingdom of God?

He who does and teaches Torah. (Mt. 5.19)

Who will be greatest in God's soon fully manifested kingdom?

see what Jesus says:
" Then a dispute also arose among them about who should be considered the greatest.

But He said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles dominate them, and those who have authority over them are called ‘Benefactors.’ But it must not be like that among you. On the contrary, whoever is greatest among you must become like the youngest, and whoever leads, like the one serving. For who is greater, the one at the table or the one serving? Isn’t it the one at the table? But I am among you as the One who serves. You are the ones who stood by Me in My trials. I bestow on you a kingdom, l just as My Father bestowed one on Me, so that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom.
Lk. 22.24-30b (HCSB)

". . .be subject to your elders; and all of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, for God is opposed to the proud, but gives grace to the humble. Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you at the proper time, casting all your anxiety on Him, because He cares for you.
I Pet. 5.5c-7 (NASB)

Oh yeah,
we can go our own way
but
not without a price to pay:
in the here and now,
and on judgement day.

“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’
Mt. 7.22-23 (NASB)

Looking foreward to the day when
the Prince of peace shall rule all nations
with a rod of iron,

gregg

p.s. If we do not get this right now, we can't expect to have a chance to do it then---> Mt. 7.23

edit: misnumbering of references, grammar, spelling, and an added word for clarity

Amen brother.

Here is the link to the sermon with description:

A Look At Authority 1: Spiritual & False by Stephen Kaung
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=949

This is a subject with incredible, potential problems and difficulties. The Bible teaches very strongly about obeying authorities over us. The entire kingdom of God is meant to function in an orderly manner under God’s plan of authority.

But

there is an extreme teaching on submission to leaders in authority, wives to husbands, children to parents, and political or religious leaders to others that can be

dangerous, unless we balance it with the fact that each individual must know that he is also responsible to God, His law and His Word.

The balance must be kept between submission and individual guidance.

I have the books by Brother Yohannan and respect him and appreciate that he has warned us here in this excerpt of the "dangers" of not maintaining a balance.

These are perilous times that we are living in.

Could anyone ever count the number of TV ministers, radio personalities, fellowships- such as house churches or any "church" for that matter, etc 'ministries'?
On the internet as well, we've all seen those claiming to be prophets or apostles or whatever they claim for themselves and all seem to have a following.
I take Brother Yohannan's warning seriously.

If even "deacons" must be "first Proved" (1Tim 3:10) and be of sound doctrine and a good spirit and not found in immorality, not full of themselves and so forth, then how much more those who desire to have The Body of Christ submit to them. No one should 'desire' That in the first place, because "leaders are called to be servants, who wash feet".

The Apostle's calling consisted of - First - spreading the Gospel - Secondly, watching over the Body, that each fellowship's doctrine remain Pure and that there would be no immorality in the church.

This, from Paul, is how we are to judge who we are to submit to. Doctrine and moral purity.

Paul, John, Peter or any other true apostle would only rebuke each church they wrote to (or excommunicate a member) for unsound doctrine or immorality.

Some of us remember many abuses of power, in the history of The Church and we are seeing now, more than ever, since the Internet was birthed, the increase of self-proclaimed ministers - or whatever they proclaim themselves to be - just by purchasing a URL.

The Apostle Paul - having written the Pastoral Epistles, has set our best example of true authority from GOD, Himself and Jesus warned us enough times as well of being ever so careful that we are not following false apostles, prophets, and so on.

I do have a Pastor btw and call him "Admiral". I love him dearly because of his humility over his strength & position. He is very much like David Wilkerson, for which I am truly thankful, filled with respect and I Bless GOD for knowing the true from the counterfeit because of his humility and kindness --- yet he would be the first to say - "Follow GOD - Trust His Spirit - because 'any' man can fall and take many down with him."

Many will come in His Name...

Oh, I meant to add the reason I call my pastor "Admiral".

Because, well, this part I have never told him, but as he came down a hallway toward me one day, a few years ago, I had a "vision" (for the lack of a better word) - seeing him in "sll white", and it came from my mouth without my own thinking "Good Morning Admiral", so I've greeted him that way ever since....

but - the LORD showed me shortly after 'why' I had that 'vision'.

Because a leader of a fellow-SHIP 'can be' the one who 'keeps' the "ship" - either getting it/them Home to safety or sinking the whole of it.

Off-topic - I feel to recommend the book "Valley of Vision" - Puritan's Prayers. Can be read in part at OldPaths.

Edit: Correction - 'The Valley of Vision' excerpts are at OldLandmarks.

I'm not quite sure how far we can take the "living room" analogy with the "Fellowshiping of The Body of Christ".

I knew of some house churches that different friends were invited to.

They too were the type who loved peace and believed in being, not only polite guests but very loving as well.

Upon entering the house, they witnessed abuse of the others there. What were they to do in a case such as that? And they being timid folks as well.

I believe our only way to picture Any type 'fellowship' is by our Only Rule Book. There is no other analogy on earth that fits His rules for the true gathering of the Saints.
For every situation that arises - there is ample Scripture.

Jesus Himself would be (and was) considered rude I believe, in some households.

I'm praying that we care more about WWJD? than what anyone else thinks. That would be revival to me. I pray that way.

Some of my ideas on the subject here.

Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God,
22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
23 Moreover I call God as witness against my soul, that to spare you I came no more to Corinth.
"Not that we have dominion over your faith, but are fellow workers for your joy; for by faith you stand.".........................2Corinthians 1.

Firstly the concept of authority in the body always came from a position below, not above, as "The Pastor", or "Leader" is seen as a CEO, or Master of Ceremonies. Jesus said; [ at the last supper, just hours before His crucifixion..] The Shepherds knew that the saints stood by their OWN faith, not theirs.

[The Disciples Argue About Greatness]
24 Now there was also a dispute among them, as to which of them should be considered the greatest.

25 And He said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them, and those who exercise authority over them are called ‘benefactors.’

26 But not so among you; on the contrary, he who is greatest among you, let him be as the younger, and he who governs as he who serves

. 27 For who is greater, he who sits at the table, or he who serves? Is it not he who sits at the table? Yet I am among you as the One who serves."

Is the spirit of leadership one that sees itself on top, dictating the flow of interactions? ..or below, as a servant to the interactions, displaying the Spirit of Christ? No man is to have a dominion over the faith of another. A true Pastor [shepherd] will edify, and serve, and will not seek to benefit from his position of authority, but help others find the joy of submitting to the Lordship of Christ.

There is no such thing as a singular Pastor with "elders" in the New testament. There was always a body of elders, plural, that were in mutual submission to one another. The function of this authority of the body of elders was to:

1.] Feed the body of Christ.[local]*
2.] Protect the body of Christ. [local]*
3.]Manifest the Lordship of Christ Jesus in each and every situation. [ The bond of Peace from the Prince of Peace ]
*{ there were some instances of extra-local ministries; generally apostolic}

Let us not forget that the true Authority in the church must be Jesus Himself. The Elders see to it that the Holy Spirit in the church is not quenched; that the body edifies it self in love, and is well fed and protected. They are always plural and equal. [The ONLY place one man was identified as the singular authority, was a heretic called Diotrephes in 3John.] When you see one man ruling, usually with an hierarchy of underlings, you see error, according to the New Testament.

Are we to submit to those who have the rule over us, out of the virtue of being ordained Shepherds? Yes, for our own good...but are these men dictators of their own doctrines and ideas?..and should we submit to that?

Of course not. Being in authority does not mean that others submit to your ideas and thinking. If the larger issues , the primary doctrines of Christ...The blood, the new birth, the resurrection, and the Lordship of Jesus are violated in spirit, then Yes, this must be confronted. Even the great Peter, the chief Jewish apostle, had erroneous doctrines and ideas, and tried to dictate them to others.
Galatians 2
11 When Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned.

12 For before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group.

13 The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray"...

Was Paul rebellious? was he submitting? The point is, our first and last submission must be to the TRUTH, and the TRUTH is a person....God himself. This and only this is where true faith is born.

They are not Hired, Paid Professional ministries ; the one man Pastor, is not to be found in the New Testament, as are those who demand to make a living upon the back of the church. Jesus accepted support, as did Paul, but did not demand it. Read Acts 20 to see Paul's heart about being a Father, who worked day and night to support himself and the men with him in the mission at Ephesus.

Also, this must be said. The part of sermonindex addressed here is the Forum part. Let's look at it as such. It is not a church....it is more an interactive Opinion/Editorial site, ...[OP/ED ]a forum where many issues may be discussed.

As I see it, Greg and Paul and HmmHmm MUST maintain the bonds of Peace, and things MUST be done decently and in order. There Must be civility, and a sense of mutual honor and deference; and with an open forum, open to everyone in the WORLD with computer access.

Well...do you think that there may be the demonic and immature that would be used to bring harm, confusion and strife? SI has proven to be one of the best run Christian sites on the web.

But, it is not a church. You really do not get to test the fruit of anyone here. You do not know them, and their love, or lack of it, their pride, or lack of it, or their perceptions of themselves.

[maybe a few do, who may get together...]...but generally, SI forum is a world of ideas, and opinions...and people have PERSONA'S...Ideas about themselves, sometimes perceived through an attitude of self importance separated from real function .

It is a web site...with typed ideas and letters addressing the issue at hand; or posting ideas and letters of perceived relevance. It is Christian, and as I said, must be regulated and filtered or as the rest of earth left alone, will degenerate into chaos.

This is where the authority of the moderators come in. There has to be differing opinions....it's not about intellectual or ideological conformity, IS IT? It shouldn't be. We all differ in some ways, in our thinking and perception of the truth, and the church.

It's kind of like an interactive cyber bible college, and the forums are the OP/ED class, where we can interact. I think it is wonderful, and generally well run, with few exceptions. Authority and submission must be put in perspective.

It is always manifested in a Godly way with Fruit; even the holy fruit of humility, love, graciousness etc., and the shepherd heart. It is much different than the CEO of a business, or the warden of a prison.

Freedom to disagree is the mark of liberty...and we are ALL equal brothers and sisters...EQUAL...and we all have a ministry...and input...in the true church......and we are ALL honored equally also.

There must be order and the edification of the Holy Spirit, or what good is anything here? Remember though, this is not the real world, where your ideas about yourself are confronted by reality. Have you learned to Love with God. I'm learning, at best.

If you want to find out how much growth, how much faith you really possess, go and give it away, one on one. All of the New Testament reeks of this truth, from Jesus, Phillip, Stephan, Paul, and all of the apostles. Don't shelter yourself behind a pulpit, or a book, or a keyboard.

Try the local jail, or skid row, where you can give the Jesus that is you away. Do it alone; just you, and then you can gauge how much life is really coming from you. Have you ever led anyone to Jesus? ..seen Jesus heal through you, one on one? Brought comfort to the mourning, the broken hearted, in a manifest way? Cast out devils to the tormented?

This is what Jesus said for all of us to do...and to make real disciples. I've sat in the ivory towers, and have crashed down a time or two. It was good for me....but the greatest thing in my life has been to submit to the Authority that has transformed me, however so little, to become a son of God, and do these things. [ I fail, too.]

We must look a authority and submission in these terms, or in my opinion, we are missing the intent of our Creator. The Kingdom is His, and do not give your crown away by thinking that another must run it.

He is highly capable Himself. The question may be, do you want to save your perceptions of yourself and your way and life, or do you want to lose them, unto Him? This is the idea of authority and submission.

Hi Areadymind,

You've said a couple of things upon which I would like to comment. I hope that's okay.

If you think that there are people in error within the leadership the bible tells you very clearly not to rebuke an elder, however there is nothing that says that you cannot privately submit your concerns to them in humility.

There seems to be an assumption that an 'elder' cannot be 'wrong'. Yet, this is not what many of us have experienced. I agree, of course, that ideally eldership is submitted to Christ - living in the Spirit - causing no desire for 'rebuking', by flock-members. Yet what Paul said here, acknowledged there may be a need to speak to an elder, and took into account the difference in age between Timothy and that person.

1 Timothy 5:1 Rebuke not an elder, but intreat [him] as a father; [and] the younger men as brethren;

1 Timothy 5:19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.

I am grateful Paul included this, as if an elder is behaving immorally or blasphemously, or committing offences against brethren, sisters, or civil law, certainly they should be stopped. No-one should excuse them from the requirement to be 'irreproachable'.

This sounds similar to Jesus' teaching beginning in Matthew 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

A great deal of Jesus teaching used the word 'brother' or 'brethren'. There should be no difference between us, in this respect, as Christians.

Matthew 18:16 But if he will not hear [thee, then] take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell [it] unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

This last verse is quite serious. It seems a Jew would know how to behave towards a 'heathen man' and 'a publican'. These days, we don't like to go to this extreme of obeying Him, perhaps. There is a tendancy to 'stay friends' without having clarified the terms, or, to not stay friends but without having tried to bring about reconciliation. It seems to be a minefield that Christians have trouble negotiating. Yet the strong implication is that these are 'spiritual' matters, as you pointed out.

Peter, also, wrote:

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. 3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

I put it to you, that 'many shall follow their pernicious ways', suggests false brethern may be holding a position of authority or power, which attracts such a response. We do need to be very careful who we believe and how we follow.

To publicly question, and to sarcastically vituperate the authorities of SI, or anywhere for that matter, is probably going to be a reflection of how you treat all authority in your life. As a result, God will never give you any authority anywhere in the body of Christ. Any authority you may have will be that which is obtained out of rebellion and carnality, and no matter how doctrinally correct of an individual you may be, you will reap the fruit which you have sown. When I say "authority in the body of Christ," I do not mean authority in a worldly sense. I mean authority to speak to issues, authority that is spiritual, and not authority that is carnal or worldly. The church is not the military, nor is it a corporation. So please do not assume that my words mean something other than what would apply in a Godly sense.

There are many different kinds of question in the Bible. Yes, some are used for dramatic, or ironic, or satirical, or rhetorical effect, and probably we can all work out which these are. But there are many other questions from God to man, from man to God, and between men, which are addressed for the most part with a childlike honesty, or, an appreciation on God's side of the difficulty man has in grasping His thought without His help.

I can remember only two, though there may be more, when a question was treated as a challenge to the word of God.

Matthew 21:23 And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority? 24 And Jesus answered and said unto them, I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things.

Matthew 21:27 And they answered Jesus, and said, We cannot tell. And he said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.

Luke 1:18 And Zacharias said unto the angel, Whereby shall I know this? for I am an old man, and my wife well stricken in years. 19 And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings. 20 And, behold, thou shalt be dumb, and not able to speak, until the day that these things shall be performed, because thou believest not my words, which shall be fulfilled in their season.

I just wanted to share these thoughts. I hope they are not interpreted as a challenge to legitimate authority in God, as that would not be my intention.