overcoming sin?

Jesus stood up and said to her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?” She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more.” John 8:10

Afterward Jesus found him in the temple and said to him, “See, you are well! Sin no more, that nothing worse may happen to you.” John 5:14

Did Jesus tell them to do something that was possible to do or impossible?

If I give you a basketball and stand you at the free throw line and then tell you to make 100 free throws without missing one, am I asking you to do something impossible? Technically, it is not impossible, but the chances of succeeding is so small as to be indistinguishable from zero.

Tim Conway has a good video on this very thing at illbehonest.com called "How Do I Repent?" Check it out. I don't think we're supposed to post links to outside media or I would.

How serious should they have taken His instructions? How serious should I?

I believe the fact that the instruction came from Jesus made it possible. A rhetorical question here; in chapter 5 of the same book Jesus said take up thy bed and walk, was that an impossible task? Interesting isn't it? In verse 34-36 of the same chapter Jesus expounds on the fact that He has the power to set a person free from sin. When Jesus says to you, "sin no more" he has in essence set you free by that very statement. It is amazing that Jesus could forgive sins and set people free from sin even before His death and ascent to the right hand of the Father. The differene is that now we can receive His life on a massive scale without Him having to say it individually to each of us, but if we by faith receive revelation from His word.

Jimm

Hello again.

As for overcoming sin and how seriously you should take it. Try not to think of the words of Jesus as threat but rather a life giving, enabling statement. You can be totally free from overt obvious sin instantly with the right teaching from the word. You will be sanctified from less obvious hidden sins of the heart and attitude gradually throughout this life.

What the obvious sins we need instant relief from to have a clear conscience and a healthy life with the Father in Christ? The list is by no means exhaustive but as a general rule of thumb, you need freedom from any kind of sins that are also physical addictions: drugs, alcohol and sex related addictions. You also need freedom from emotional sins such as anger and depression. These are things which as I say, there is instant deliverance from in Christ if you get the right revelation by His grace. There are many teachings on this very subject on this site.

My own tip on the subject is don't try to fight the urge to sin. The moment you begin to fight sin yourself you loose your ground in Christ. Jesus has done it all, but the issue is learning to rest in this truth. If an urge arises don't fight it but surrender it to Christ in you. That's not as deep and mystical as it sounds, in essence what it means is just ignore the temptation and the life of Jesus will rise up in you and beat it. This truth works instantly, and is strengthened when you continue to read the bible (especially the New testament epistles)

James

Mike, if it's something you are trying to overcome and having a hard time doing I would recommend reading Romans, especially the first 6 chapters.

As far as the passage you quote we must remember what sin is at it's core. Sin is unbelief. Sin, as in adultery or what not, is but an outflow of that unbelief. Sin can be considered a roadsign telling you and others where your heart is.

Our salvation is not built on morals, but on faith. Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness. If you read the rest of the story you mentioned you will see that the man was unbelieving in his attitude. Jesus asked him if he wanted to be well and the man offered excuses as to why he couldn't get to the water but never answered Jesus' question.

His response is typical of many in our churches dealing with sin. Jesus is asking them if they want to be well and they make excuses as to why they are unable to stop whatever it is they shouldn't be doing. Well, Jesus simply healed the man and told him to go and sin no more. He has done the same for us through His death on the cross. Colossians 2:13 & 14 says "When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross." All of our sins, or debts, have been nailed to the cross so that we are no longer slaves to sin, but to righteousness. This means that like the lame and blind man we must turn from our unbelief and walk in belief.

It is not an issue of not smoking or drinking or whatever. It is an issue of believing that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God. Believe that and seek THAT Jesus and instead of roadsings being sin they will be fruit. Don't dwell on the sin, dwell on the Savior and sin will be left behind.

Super excellent question!

It's really very simple. Jesus knew that the Gift of No Condemnation was the only thing that would set her free.

He has Made us to BE the Righteousness of God. He has made us to BE the Temple of God... even if we mess ourselves (which we will) and even if we have to brush our teeth and comb our hair in the morning. But by simple Faith in what Jesus did for you at the Cross, we ARE overcomers. As God freely gives us His Son's Righteousness - in the midst of all our frailties.

By His Spirit, He supernaturally adjusts our soul and then the actions out of the body are of the fruits of Righteousness. Sadly, most of the church pushes laws and schemes to trick the soul into getting the body to do "right" in our lives. God does not see it this way however.

Hi Knitefall,

You have brought am important point to this discussion. I hope that I don't sound too technical even in the subject heading but let me by the grace of God attempt a simple summary. Abraham believed God and it was imputed to him as righteousness, even apart from actual "works of righteousness". In other words, God said that Abraham was a God guy even before he did good things. That's called "righteousness imputed" if you want to google more on the subject.

Knitefall also alluded to the righteousness of Christ gradually taking hold of our lives, but this is done in the context of us already being righteous because we, like Abraham believe in God (Jesus Christ). Fantastic. My only addition would be again that, without adding condemnation to anyone at all, we can be delivered from obvious sins instantly in Christ, but we are not hereby justified (good in the eyes of God). It is as Knitefall says, we are justified by faith in Jesus Christ alone. Freedom from sin (sanctification) is another blessing in addition to this.

James

Oh yes! Thank you poster friend! Great points - now, this is a conversation. No arguing back and forth from others... yet.

I really appreciate the responses given.
I think of Jesus when He said “Woe to the world for temptations to sin!b For it is necessary that temptations come, but woe to the one by whom the temptation comes! 8And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire. 9And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hellc of fire. Matthew 18:7

He sounds very serious

I think of Paul when he cries,
O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Romans 7:24

Jesus appears to be the source for change

In 1 Corinthians 9:24 Paul appears to be somewhat proactive

Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. 25Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26So I do not run aimlessly; I do not box as one beating the air. 27But I discipline my body and keep it under control,b lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.

I think what was essentially being asked by the original post was this: is it possible to live a life of perpetual sinless perfection?
Nothing forces the Christian to commit any sin any longer because of the life-giving Spirit we now have in Jesus. Overcoming sin and walking in the Spirit is a moment-by-moment walk of faith. We as Christians live in bodies of sin which constantly seeks to gain control of the will in order to express sin. We can become weary of well-doing and be distracted to give place to the flesh. Paul talks about the constant battle between the flesh and the spirit. In this battle, in order for the spirit to prevail, one needs only to yield, submit and surrender to the Spirit of God who puts to death the deeds of the flesh. Life is a never ending series of choices between self/flesh and God/Spirit. Christians may enjoy victory in this area most of the time, but I do not believe that a Christian will have the victory 100% of the time. I am not saying that there is anything that forces a Christian to sin, just that human nature being what it is, we are weak and easily distracted from perfectly trusting the Spirit.

Hello Ebeth

You asked an important question if I may paraphrase, "can a Christian be half-full of life and therefore compromised in his fight against sin? Peter (Gal 2:18) was clearly wrong, did this indicate that he was now compromised or half-full?

My take on it is that there is no half-life even as is the case biologically. Something is either alive or dead, although I understand the perspective that someone can be so sick they can be considered half-alive or half-dead. This is where the analogy of biological life with spiritual life falls apart. In Spirit, Jesus is the Life (John 14:6) and He is a 1) a person and 2) above any kind of sickness. For our spiritual Life to be half, it means that Jesus is half a Person, that is not possible. For our spiritual Life to be sick it means that Jesus must be sick, that too is impossible.

So you are either completely in an aspect of the Life or you are completely out of an aspect of the Life. That does not mean you're not saved or even completely defiled, it only means that there may still be aspects of your soul that stil need sanctifying and that will always come with revelation.

So what happened with Peter? Peter was an Apostle to the Jews and Paul was an Apostle to the gentiles. It is because of this that Peter was not well versed in the revelation of how to interact with gentiles as Paul was. It was not as common as it is now for non-Jews to believe in a "Jewish" God. Peter's failure was not like adultury or anything like that. It was a failure due to simple ignorance, which he admitted and repented of. So we see that ignorance of certain revelations can result in certain sins in our lives.

a carnal fleshly understanding of the Gospel is thinking that we have something to do to make God be "closer" to us.

This is not so.

We are either repented of our own abilities to "please" God or not.

perhaps you would like to clarify what you are implying before you lead a little one back into the Law?

Is there also a FULL and then not staying FULL
enough that has it's efect on us?
I'm asking ! I know I have not arrived,as yet ,but desire to.

Leonard Ravenhill once said: "There is no such thing as one filling with the Holy Ghost that is going to last you from here to eternity."

But for anyone reading this, the baptism of the Holy Ghost is just as real, and just as tangible, and just as necessary in today's church as it was in the beginning. God is not a cessationist! ...and for that I am truly grateful!

listen to Leonard Ravenhill on the subject:

Anointing - Leonard Ravenhill
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BeO-iCqxvI

True witness. you wrote

Christians may enjoy victory in this area most of the time, but I do not believe that a Christian will have the victory 100% of the time. I am not saying that there is anything that forces a Christian to sin, just that human nature being what it is, we are weak and easily distracted from perfectly trusting the Spirit.

All you said up to that point was of faith and edifying. But you must know that Christ has won the victory for us, and gives us the victory. Our human nature, the old Adam was cruified with Christ when we believed. We must believe this with our hearts, and confess it with our lips (keyboards). It is important that we as christians speak words of faith.

David

Hello again Ebeth.

What a wonderful and sincere spirit you have! The question you ask sadly does not have a simple answer. I say "sadly" because whenever an answer becomes complex there is the great danger of upsetting some people through misunderstanding. May God's grace make this point an acceptable starting point at least.

Try not to think of your spirit as one huge container that needs one filling. Instead see yourself as a container having 100 compartments(or rooms that Jesus can live in), and you are only aware of perhaps 10 of them at the begining of your Christian walk. As you go along this life you may discover more aspects of yourself that need filling but it doesn't mean the other compartments are not full anymore. It just means they do not have the capacity to fulfill every human need.

For example, you may initially begin with a measure of love, joy and peace in Christ. That helps to avoid most personal sins instantly. As time goes on and you interact with people you begin to realise that you need some kindness and longsuffering as well. You may not have known Christ in this way before but a revelation comes and suddenly Christ begins to live in the other compartments of your spirit as well. In this way it is as having continual "infillings" so to speak.

It is useful to refer to Christ as we immediately realise that we cannot have half a Christ in a compartment of our spirit so to speak. If there is an area of our lives lacking in one respect or another it is because we do not know him in that way. It is like a natural relationship. You discover and begin to know more and more things about a person with time. That's what infilling is really about.

James

Someone had mentioned sinless perfection. It made me think of some scriptures.

Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. 11When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 12For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

I like how the Bible says that the perfect is not yet, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away... but then face to face.

Talk about hope!

But Jesus still commanded those two to not sin. He commanded, His followers must be perfect Matthew 5:48

The One who we follow said we must be perfect.

This one is wonderful Phil 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

Paul said he is not there but he Follows After instead of sitting and waiting.

Jesus commanded us "Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able."

He said to strive, He said don't sin as if we had something to do with it, He said be perfect Romans 12:9 says abhor what is evil. He has told us things to actually do.

It reminds me of Matt 19:25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?” 26But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.

Well yes,

never fail to remember that we actually live two lives. We live the life IN Jesus which is perfect and is the one God uses to judge us by.

Then we live in the meat suit called a body, that houses Faith and still is susceptible to sin and sins.

so... we are 100% sinless yet while we are still alive and not Glorified yet, fall. That is why we are not to judge to condemn and hurt Christians. Because our Father is no longer mad at us, due to the Son's freely given Sacrifice.

two lives, One Faith... keep the Faith soldiers

Hi Mike

On christian perfection I hate to get heavy duty and whip out the greek meanings of words but I prefer to give more down-to-earth examples. Because we are finite beings there is a literal sense in which we can not have the same measure of love as God. Perfection as I understand it is measured by love and God lover everyone equally. For us that would mean praying for and thinking deeply about every soul that we know, that's just for starters. We would then have to think of, pray for, and love every soul in existence. Your finite brain just doesn't have enough memory and processing power. There are not only sins of commission to avoid but also, sins omission (the things you didn't do).

It's likely that Jesus was a geniuse using 100% of His brain which for us normal people who use 4% of our brain is inconceivable and also unattainable. If hypothetically your brain even approached 50% it would turn to fried egg because of excessive synaptic firing. Jesus would not have faced that problem because His body was not made from fallen sinful flesh, it only looked like our bodies but it was in fact a likeness (Romans 8:3).

Added to this, the kind of experiences Jesus had, we simply do not have. Such as for example, being God, the Word made flesh. His flesh was the Word that means everything He ever did even before the Holy Spirit was perfection. Which also means, He had no bad habits to unlearn.

Paul speaks of one, out-of-body experience in 2Corinthians12, where He heard unutterable things that changed His ministry forever. Jesus may have had such experiences daily as God. We may or may not experience such things according to His grace.

Human limitations and differences with Jesus are vast but let me end there for now and conclude by saying we have a measure of perfection we can attain but even that is limited as long as we are in these bodies.

Jesus

so... we are 100% sinless yet while we are still alive and not Glorified yet, fall. That is why we are not to judge to condemn and hurt Christians. Because our Father is no longer mad at us, due to the Son's freely given Sacrifice.

Peace to you and nothing personal but where in the world did this come from?

Not to single you out but I have read a lot of posts here that contain information that has gone from mouth to ear but did not come from God

Sin is still sin and ANY unrepentant sin becomes presumptuous sin and Christians are more responsible for presumptuous sin than unbelievers are

Unbelievers are condemned to sin having satan for a father thus they do his bidding.... they cannot help themselves to keep from sin

On the other hand Christians were provided a way to overcome sin through the gift of the Holy Spirit....... you either live by the Holy Spirit that is without sin or you live by the spirit of man that is an unclean spirit destined for death because of sin. Sin is not just a verb but as a noun it has life within it and produces verbs in image of the noun. Paul called it to be the law of sin that lived within his body and by definition it is a principality.

However the law of faith is a more powerful law than the law of sin is and when the law of faith rules over the Christian, the law of sin is rendered lifeless and has no effect on the individual although it will continue to test them.

Paul called it the messenger of Satan that kept him humble through it's continuous temptation reminding Paul that it was only by faith and by grace that he was able to overcome sin and not by his own works.

However the law of faith is a law built on truth and if a Christian's faith consists of false doctrines and living in sin then to say that they are of little faith is being kind to them.

Jesus did not live the life that He did and die the death that He did just so everyone could have a clean slate........ He did so that you can be born again of a spirit that does not sin.

We are to be washed in the pure water of the Word that teaches all that we need to know to overcome sin so that Jesus in heaven can finally have a body on earth to rest His Head on.

When He does rest His Head on a body of believers then you will see the greater works that Jesus said the His followers would do

However as long as we continue to see lesser works it is because the body and the head are NOT joined together and the separation is because of sin!

As far as someone being in Christ then show me the works or otherwise it is just Christ in you that is a good start but it is no more than a light in the midst of a dark place while "us in Christ" is perfection.

The Apostles were in Christ and proved it through many signs following. God is always looking to show His power on those who are obedient and it is not like someone has overcome sin and God has not noticed them.

Perfection is completion and completion is the fullness of Christ in someone that allows the body to look like the head in heaven...... In other words you should be able to do the walk of an Apostle with signs following ...... or as James says your faith is dead

Blessings

Doug

oh boy, here we go!

If we have to "pay for sin" then I guess you are saying Jesus did not atone completely for sin?

And I guess you are implying that we now have the power to stop sin in our life ='s to combat a spiritual problem using fleshly, physical means?

both of these are highly condemning when one tries this, fails and then gets told some garbage like, "Well brother, if you only believe like me.." or how about this one, "it's time for you to buckle down, get serious and fight against the devil..."

all garbage.

this really gets sickening after a while. The amount of people that live for God by the power of their own flesh (not God's Spirit) is staggering. I will listen to the voice of the Lord and speak the words of Grace. You can remain a part of the problem and place people in Law, I'll do it God's way.

Now where on earth did you get your bad theology of humanistic ideas?

Paul called it the messenger of Satan that kept him humble through it's continuous temptation reminding Paul that it was only by faith and by grace that he was able to overcome sin and not by his own works.

Most of a thorn is outside a body. This thorn in the flesh reminds me of this verse which is the first time sin is called sin in the scriptures."If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it." (Genesis 4:7)

Notice how sin is outside the door crouching desiring us like a lion desires it's prey. Because of our perishable flesh it can leap upon us but we must master it by the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit which we receive by Grace through Faith in Christ. We are weak and cannot master sin in our own power. but thanks be to God! "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness." (1 Corinthians 12:9)

This glorifies God! "Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me."(1 Corinthians 12:9) The power in Christ dwells in the weak broken vessels. "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 5:3)

God bless you

all garbage.

this really gets sickening after a while. The amount of people that live for God by the power of their own flesh (not God's Spirit) is staggering. I will listen to the voice of the Lord and speak the words of Grace. You can remain a part of the problem and place people in Law, I'll do it God's way.

Hello knitefall

Peace to you....

Strong words but can you you show me faith through the works done through you?....... because I can and I am not speaking of works that can be displayed by a contrary spirit posing as God but works that are divine and not deserving of me who is the least to deserve the mercy and grace that I have received..... fair enough?

Faith and sin are opposing laws that work within us through the law of polarity that caused Paul to say that even when he desired to do good he did what he desired not to do....... that is a bummer and I spent more time than I wished learning how that could be overcome.

Consequently...... If the faith in you is more powerful than the sin that lives in us all then a person can show faith with works.

If you cannot you are not alone because all Christians have been given the seed of faith that is Christ in us. However seeds do not reproduce fruit but when when fed the truth of Jesus Christ they take root and eventually grow into mature trees that produce the fruit.

Still that is the good news because from time of your birth the seed of the serpent that is sin in you has taken root and produced much fruit albeit contrary to God....... but as you say nothing personal because all Christians have to deal with the same situation

Hopefully nobody here has produced the same fruit contrary to God that I have....... as I said I am the least deserving.

Besides Jesus Christ being a fruit baring tree he is a fruit baring vine that does what vines do and strangle the tree that host the vine........ that knowledge caused the John the Baptist to say that "now the axe is laid to the tree"

Yes you body is sinless but only because it is blameless for responding to your soul that rules over it but is your soul sinless?....... if so you are one of a kind.

Blessings

Doug

I feel a little guilty for asking a question that caused so much strife. Maybe if you brothers and sisters would just quote more scriptures (not proof text but more exhaustive)and let the Bible answer our questions. I knew it could be a divisive subject so lets just go to God's Word.

I just got out of a Bible study on submission. Here is one of the verses. God Bless

Ephesians 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; 20Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ; 21Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

This is a wonderful scripture
1 John 1:8 if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1 John 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

There is a lot of comfort for me in these scriptures.

The very next scriptures get somewhat challenging

And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. 4Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 5but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: 6whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

God, help me to walk as you walked.

good posts!

I'll add another Scripture that myself and others were in fellowship over:

1Cor 3:16 (KJV) "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?"

and the next couple of verses in context are really amazing once it hits...

Many, when they read this Scripture or hear it over the pulpit, hear it like this, "You better buckle down, get right or get left, fight the devil, believe hard and do it fast because God won't dwell in you if you don't do it right, you sinner!" -or something close to that.

But what was the Holy Ghost saying to them and to us today?

Something really awesome, that's what!

He is saying to us a no condemnation Gospel. He speaks to us now in love as all punishment for sin took place on the Cross!

So what does that mean for us today?

That by a legal means, the Spirit -that is a HOLY one- can now reside IN us, even if we have a "bad" day and do not "Perform" to the standard everyone thinks we should perform at.

In addition, whether we are sinless or experience bad behavior at any given day, we are still -'Been Made the Temple that God Resides IN-

and nothing changes that but if we remove our Faith in what our Lord provided for us to Walk by daily (Christ and Him Crucified). -that my friends is the No Condemnation view of this Scripture.

So, ask yourself this question, "am I relying on how good I do today in order to stay Saved and PLEASE God?" (thx Bro Eric for that one...)

if answer is NO then you are relying on what Jesus did 2000 years ago.
- I hope agreement would invariably be by all on this board.

Now we do spend time with Him in relationship but what I do or how much of it I do and what I do not do, does NOT change His Love for me or the Perfect Righteousness He has freely given.

it should not be a shocking surprise when we see one fail. After all, no one here has completely trusted God for ALL things ALL DAY today, and that is called sin right? Boy, that will make religious ppl mad!

No harm, no condemnation- read the Scripture again:

Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Good point on the challenging Scriptures after verse 1 LearnerMike,

If a Christian has the idea that he can now "keep commands" after being Saved, it is a carnal flesh understanding of Scripture.

A Spirit believer would know and understand these to mean that IN Jesus, all command is kept and apart from Him, we cannot keep what He does say to do.

He does all the work through us.

I cannot "do it in and of my own power" but I need God's supernatural Spirit to adjust my soul to get the "fruits" to flow out through the body.

Most think that they need to manipulate the soul (12 step schemes and psychology etc...) to get the body to "behave" correctly and keep commands.

But since we are the Righteousness of God IN Christ Jesus, we are free to Walk in a pleasing manner and this really because God is no longer mad at us.

more could be said, good night.

The scriptures that comes to my mind have to do with making fruit because the fruit identifies whose temple you really are and not just whose temple you think you are

Matthew 7:16
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

Matthew 7:20
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Matthew 12:33
Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit

If I did not make my last post clear let me try again.......

If you are the temple of God as you say you are then you can produce Godly fruit........ if not then you are not God's temple and there is a reason for that

The story of the unclean spirit is good one because it shows what happens to someone who gets baptized in the Holy Spirit but without even knowing it the old spirit of man takes back control because of what you would say as "having a bad day" without even being aware of just how bad your day has been or the damage done and the price paid.

Mat. 12 43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.

44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.

45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

Christians that have "bad days" crucify afresh the Holy Spirit in their heart

Maybe they repent for their sin so then the Holy Spirit returns to their heart only to get booted out again when the person sins again that ends up becoming a repetition of sinning and repenting that James calls being double minded.

Or the person offers no repentance for sin because they think that because they are the temple of God repentance is not necessary because it is nothing more than just having a bad day.

Have you gotten the point?........ temples of God that have God within do not sin and that is why in Thess. 2 we have the man of sin sitting in the temple of God where he ought not be because Jesus paid for it in blood. Unfortunately the owner of the temple remains content to have bad days.

Thess 2 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

The temple belongs to whom ever is producing the fruit and by the fruit they produce they are known........ now if as you say that you are the temple of God, then it is seen through His works coming through you that are divine works seen as the fruit that comes from you

In that case then you are God's Temple given witness by the heavenly fruit seen coming from you

If there is no heavenly fruit seen coming from you then God is not at work in you and there is a reason why not that always boils down to the presence of sin either in thought or in deed?

One thing you can take to the bank is that God does not have bad days!

So what fruit do we see coming from you ?...... good fruit or bad fruit ?

Blessings

Doug

Hi friends,

This discussion is fruitful and good for us to discuss in the Lord. One distinction I believe is important to make is the difference between "conviction of sin" and "condemnation for sins committed".

It is healthy for us to preach and teach against/about sin and it's many forms as this brings about a healthy conviction in believers. It is not permitted for us however to say to a person who believes in Christ Jesus, "because you have done this sin you are not saved and are going to hell". Only God has the capacity to say whether a person is saved or not but this does not exempt a believer from hearing messages about sin in general.

We are all at various levels of growth but we, while we are alive are never exempt from feeling convicted of sin. Conviction is good and necessary to give us the resolve to change through revelation. Convictiono shatters our own strength and leaves us relying on God's strength like Isaiah who when in the presence of said, "woe is me I am undone!" We should not be afraid of this feeling. This feeling is not condemnation but it is the work of the Holy Spirit.

Hello Jimm

I agree with your post and in all truth the only sin that should ever become a problem that we refuse to walk away from is when it is our own sin.

As far as "being saved" I often will ask someone what have they been saved from if they are still dealing sin issues?

Jesus correctly used the term born again but I am not as confident with how the church uses the term. IMO for how it gets used something like "conceived again" would be more accurate.

There is a thread approaching the basement called something like "seeing beyond the veil" that I have a post of seeing Jesus in a vision that is Him on the Cross on top of a mound of earth

Anyway a time came when God gave me an inside view of the mound and what I saw within it was an unborn child still in the womb. It was good lesson for me on how to see myself and others as well

Simply put we are all mounds of earth and if we spend enough time at the Cross the Life in His Blood sprinkled upon us starts to form in us and that was the unborn baby still in the womb that God allowed me to see.

In reality until a time appointed by the Lord we are all "works in progress" that conviction of sin plays a major part.

It is when there is no conviction for sin that the baby within the mound has died and most often is never resurrected back alive.

He.6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6I f they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Blessings

Doug

Lesserlight,

After reading the part about "booting" the Spirit and crucifying the Holy Ghost... I stopped reading you demon religion. Are you 17 or something? I certainly hope you are not teaching somewhere. Did you just get Saved? I certainly hope you do not have a doctoral degree with that theology.

you are proving yourself wrong with incredibly terribly bad theology by stating that God runs away (like He's surprised) when a Christian sins.

Maybe I read your post wrong or something but did He come and Atone for ALL sin or not? And by your own theology, YOU do not have the Lord dwelling in you right now because it is impossible to claim sinless perfection!

Yes, we are sinless after having been baptized (submersed), by FAITH, into the very body of Jesus (Rom 6:3), buried and Resurrected to sit at the Father's side.

No, our earth bodies do not experience this perfection. That's what we are all waiting for. So you can live by the flesh and your eye sight and I'll live by Faith like God says to do.

Do you see the problem in stating things like "Christians... crucify afresh the Holy Spirit... ?"

How can you crucify a Spirit?

"Maybe they repent for their sin so then the Holy Spirit returns to their heart..."

Where do you see THAT in Scripture?

only to get booted WHAT? out again AGAIN? when the person sins WE ALL WILL AND DO! again that ends up becoming a repetition of sinning WELCOME TO HUMAN LIFE! and repenting YOU MEAN CONFESSION! that James calls being double minded THIS HAS TO DO WITH YOUR FAITH.

that's just silly

most people will get confession mixed up with repentance. Confession will get you forgiveness of some sin in the individual. Biblical repentance is something totally different!

When you repent, you recognize your total inability to produce any goodness of yourself, and you repent (means to change your mind/ stop a way of thinking) of self ability to do ANYTHING to please God. As well, Repenting is a change of how you view the way to live for God.

The pharesees had need of repentance as they thought their good behavior and good works earned salvation with God. That's why He said they did not KNOW Him! There was no Faith and Repentance action in their lives.

So repentance really only happens one time. Unless you actively take your Faith out of Christ and Him Crucified and place it in your own ability to keep law, you do not need to Repent.

the Gospel life is simpler that you are making it friend.

It is all by Faith. The Lord then produces the works through the body. He does not see the sinful body and soul as, by Faith, He bypasses that via His freely given Holy Spirit.

do you see the great flaw in your theology? Calm down, read post again young grasshopper!

Hello friends,

I get where you're coming from Knitefall but I think that was a bit of an over-kill to Lesserlight bro.. We don't want this to go to the bad place and make Greg shut us down now.

Here's my thing, I think our definitions of "sin" and "perfection" may not be the same and therefore in essence we are not discussing the same thing here. If by "sin" you are referring to keeping away from the obvious bad things (say the 10 commandments) then sure that is so attainable in this lifetime. I mean even non-Christians without the help of the Holy Spirit can by sheer will power keep the 10. If your definition of sin however goes deeper to the intent of every action, thought and emotion you feel, then to be sinless we must admit will not be attained in this lifetime.

For example, a sin of omission is still a sin even though you didn't "do" anything wrong. In this was you could be in sin by doing nothing at all, either good or bad. Perfection in the light of this is becomes highly unlikely. We are still meant to make the most of our time here on the earth and try to attain what measure of perfection mortality will allow us to contain but again, you are not hereby justified. You are justified by faith in Jesus alone, apart from any works, "sinless" or otherwise.

James

PS: Lesserlight, would you mind terribly sending me a pm of the vision you saw. I am intrigued..

I come across in strength not out of personal attack but standing in the Light the Lord has given.

read slowly:

And I think this is a great topic, that's why I comment.

When I see one looking for answers, I look to see what others post. If the answers given have our fingerprint/scent on them, God must reject it. He is only pleased with His Son. And NOT our "tree of GOOD and evil..."

You're right Jimm, our definitions of sin and perfection are different -thx for pointing that out.

Biblically, sin is not acts of individual sins. Sin is that nature in us that makes us desire going another way than the Lord's way of living for Him. Sin is that nature that causes us to provide for ourselves!

Now, when we are in sin(self provided righteousness ie the law) then we will experience increase of acts of sin (law is the strength of sin).

Until our Faith be placed back in what Jesus provided for us on the Cross. This is what frustrating Grace really is!

It's called that because He already provided all that we would ever need! And we set out to improve ourselves?

Just be real with the Lord, "Hey God, I'll mess it up today so I think I'll die to self and let you clothe me In your Son's Righteousness." and you continue your day, walking IN Jesus.

keep reading slowly:

we are called a sinner not because we watched to much baywatch or ate to much chocolate or smoked a cigar!

We are sinners because we are stubborn and do our own thing to please ourselves instead of trusting God wholly and completely for every single detail of our lives.

Men focus on the outward manifestations that most would label as "Sins."

God however looks on the heart. If Jesus is there, we are declared the Righteousness of God. Why? and How? because we're good and deserve it and can keep the whole law morally?

Well I guess then Jesus did not need to die for the 'moral part' if we are supposed to "keep" all that then? think about it! Are you trying to morally keep something God said you can't and that He sent His Son for?

God Forbid all that! It's kept by placing Faith in Jesus. That's New cov't theology.

Then the byproduct of that is eventually fruits of Righteousness will manifest.

At the SAME TIME, we are declared Righteous, having been placed inside the body of Jesus (slow motion view of what took place on Calvary) rom 6:3 look at it! and see it for yourselves! It's there!

read slow:

We cannot self produce fruits by trying harder and gritting our teeth and fighting the devil etc...

walking in the Spirit is letting God do His supernatural work of Grace in us. Walking in the flesh is trying to keep sins covered up and make excuses for wrong doing and attempting to place law on yourself in order to prevent yourself from sinning.

man that's better than you're AMEN-ing...

And I used humor that might seem harsh in the above passage because it shows one how wrong they are in their thinking and it lets others know they are not to be followed.

I have Steve McVey's book Grace Walk. I remember one of the teachings was that we are a new creation in Christ and that we do not have an evil twin living inside of us.

Sin is not something that man can manage. Jesus was the only Son of man" that overcame sin and only the fulness of Jesus within a Christian will overcome the sin that is seen on the outside of babes in Christ.

Christians trying to overcome sin through discipline or any 12 step process are just trying to do what the jews have failed to do by fulfilling the law that always ends in failure.

Those that think that overcoming sin is either a physical ability or a demand of perfection from another man are just ignorant christians (as in adolescents still in their pre teens if SI member knitefall is reading this) not understanding the difference between Christ the seed and Christ fulfilled in us.

When one learns the narrow way to Christ being fulfilled in us overcoming sin is as natural as a babe in Christ having a bad day and continuing on in their sins

Those who have overcome sin and sin no more, Father God in heaven is happy to show His power over the natural world on their behalf by bringing forth signs and wonders from them that includes healing the sick and raising the dead just like the apostles did

Until the church learns to overcome sin that is given proof through signs and wonders following, the church will remain at odds with God and his Glory will continue to be withheld from the church.

Overcoming sin is not an option for Christians entering into the rest that Is Jesus Christ........ it is a by-product of it for those who understand what the rest is all about.

Blessings

Doug

Those who have overcome sin and sin no more, Father God in heaven is happy to show His power over the natural world on their behalf by bringing forth signs and wonders from them that includes healing the sick and raising the dead just like the apostles did

I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him [that is] from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.(1 John 2:14)

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.(Revelation 3:5)

I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him [that is] from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.(1 John 2:14)

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.(Revelation 3:5)

Best post on this thread

Thanks for sharing

Blessings

Doug

I hope this is not too far off subject but I thought it was interesting today how when the "rich young ruler" questioned Jesus, Jesus said in Luke 18:22 "Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

I thought it it was interesting how he only lacked one thing.

In the Matthew version he says " If thou wilt be perfect, go [and] sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come [and] follow me.

I thought it was interesting how he said if you want to be perfect, do this.

I am not drawing any dogmatic conclusions on this, I just stand in awe at God's Word. His Word always stretches me.
I suppose God's wisdom will always make my wisdom look like foolishness.

(side side note - Jesus also gave this same commandment to the multitude in Luke 12:33 ... for a long time I did not know that)

Hello learnermike

Intereseting scripture you have chosen

Or maybe it chose you?

According to this ruler the law has been fulfilled by him since the time of his youth so in a short he was saying his life was sinless because transgression of the law is sin and he had not violated the law

This man did not have the Holy Spirit that besides fulfilling the law is also seen in unending love that is the accumulation of character listed in Romans 5:1-5

Today if one was only to fulfill the law that would define them as sinless, Jesus would still be saying to them........ "but there is this one thing about you that is not right" and that one thing in us is accomplished through love

Paul stressed the word charity that was beyond simple giving all of your goods to the poor

All of this brings up an important part to overcoming sin that is not just about what you do not do by transgressing the law but what you do that comes from the heart and identifies who is living there.

If Jesus is living in your heart you will not sin,,,,,,,,, but getting that to be 24/7 is a whole new topic

Blessings

Doug

Brother Doug,
I am not trying to be argumentative I appreciate your contribution. But wasn't Loving God and Loving your neighbor part of the law? Ok but I am answering my own question. It was obvious that he did LOVE himself (his monetary security, luxuries, riches etc.) more than he loved God. So love WAS missing from his heart. It seems that the one thing he lacked was to love the Lord thy God with ALL his heart, and with ALL his soul, and with ALL his strength, and with ALL his mind; and his neighbour as himself. Luke 10:27

Ok Doug I believe you were right on, the "one thing" he lacked was love; love of God and love of his neighbor.

It makes me wonder, what am I not willing to let go of... where is my treasure... where is my love?

Bless you all

It makes me wonder, what am I not willing to let go of... where is my treasure... where is my love?

Learner mike,

God bless you. May Jesus be your all consuming love and treasure as you follow hard after him into eternity.

"My soul followeth hard after thee: thy right hand upholdeth me." Psalm 63:8

Hello again learnermike

I have an unction that the day is coming when you will be called "teachermike"

Actually God's Law was one of judgment of good and evil but Jesus did not condemn sinners but instead saves them

You have hit nail on the head for why it so difficult for Jesus in our heart to be able to at all times of tribulation and peril to remain the Lord of our heart and not allow our emotions to cause us to slip...... that came pretty close to happening to me while contributing to this thread. Fortunately Jesus prevailed and I have strong feeing that was accomplished with some help from the prayers of others.

The problem we have with Jesus being in our hearts 24/7 is because Jesus is the truth but much of what we are taught from time of our youth is not the truth. Christ is the seed that is planted in us that is to take root and grow into a fruit producing tree in the image of Jesus Christ.

However that seed can only grow as long as it is being fed truths from heaven and not the earthly doctrines of man. All they serve is to feed the flesh of man that got its start from the seeds of the knowledge of good and evil consumed by Adam and Eve.

Undoing all that is taught that is contrary to God is only accomplished through teaching the truths that are not taught that in turn will cause the seed that is Christ to grow into a fruit producing tree.

To do so is quite an undertaking and for me it has been about eight months and nearly 90,000 words that God willing will go to the publisher on tuesday.

Meanwhile you seem to be in pretty good company here that will do their best to help you to grow in Christ.

Blessings

Doug

Give us [This day] our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses