Saint or sinner

Are believers in Christ a saint and sinner or a saint who is sometimes sinning or...? What's our identity? Because the old men died, new creation is there. So it's not I but sin in me. How do you guys look at this?

Thanks God bless

I John says that whoever commits sin is of the devil. If we are saved, we are no longer a sinner. We cannot belong to God and the devil at the same time. We are now a child of God.
Any other thoughts?

This say it pretty plain;

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for His seed remaineth in him: and He cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1Jo 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

1Jo 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

1Jo 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

"Born of God", is being Born Again by the Word of God, which liveth and abideth forever; Jesus Christ in you the hope of Glory;

Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

He is our perfection, He is now our life, the life that does not sin, the real "I" is Jesus Christ in me and He cannot sin. So, "It is no longer I who sin but sin that dwelleth in me", That is why the body of flesh (sin) must die and God give us a new body like His Son Jesus Christ.
Our Spirit is alive unto God by the Spirit of Christ in us, our soul/mind is alive unto God and being conformed to the Mind of Christ by the Holy Spirit Teacher.

Ro 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Ro 15:6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Co 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Php 1:27 Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

This is who we are to God; "It is no longer I", "but Christ who lives in me".

Galatians 2:16-21 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; ((((((yet not I, but Christ liveth in me:))))) and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the (((faith of the Son of God,))) who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

We the Born Again are the son's of God by the Son of God that is in us. "It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. This is now our lives, we are dead to sin and the old man is dead to God. We are now new creatures in Christ Jesus. 2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Galatians 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

Revelation 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

We are the New Creation of God, Christ Jesus being the first and the head of His Body the Church, which is "His Body".

In Christ: Phillip

Ans how then do we interpretate 1 Tim. 1:15 what Paul says about himself? Is he calling himself sinner / saint or...?

In Romans chapter 7 Paul explains the demise of why Christians fail to overcome sin.

When a Christian is baptized in the Holy Spirit they receive the seed that is Christ however they still have within them the seed (spirit) of man that has been an unclean spirit ever since the fall of man way back in the garden.

Through the seed (spirit) that is Christ,Christians have access unto God but through the spirit (seed) of man that has the law of sin within it Satan still has access unto the Christian.

Paul describes these two principalities to be opposing laws with his mind serving the law of faith but his flesh serving the law of sin. This is where knowledge comes into play because a Christian without knowledge is no match for Satan despite the best of intentions.

There will never be a marriage between Jesus and a church that is still having to deal with sin consequently learning how to overcome sin should be priority number one for all christians.......... or accept the fact that they will not participate in the wedding.

Blessings

Doug

Sin is not just a verb that denotes an action but is also a noun that has been handed down to all of mankind....... something that is often called to be original sin aka the sin nature in man that causes them to sin.

Just because a person "becomes a Christian" does not rid them of this "thing called sin" that lives within them that Paul called "the thorn in his flesh and the messenger of satan".

However by learning the truth of the seven foundational doctrines allows a Christian to defeat the sin that lives within us through Christ being formed in them from the seed of Christ (aka Holy Spirit) that is the free gift of salvation

It is not a matter of how many times a Christian has sinned and gone through repentance and forgiveness since coming to Christ but are you or are you not going to overcome the sin that lives in you that is keeping Christ from being formed in you?

To date the only example we have of mortal man with Christ formed in them thus overcoming the sin in them are the Apostles. When one overcomes sin they become in harmony with God that is witnessed with signs following.

The whole purpose of Jesus Christ is not for us to be forgiven of our sins but to overcome sin thus becoming one with God. When that happens a it did with the Apostle then you will see a person that God will work miracle through them the same a He did through the Apostles.

This is why knowledge is so important and is what separates the NT Apostles from Christians today

Blessings

Doug

Hello to you AtG

So where does this leave Paul's statement that 'our old man was crucified with Christ' and we are to reckon ourselves dead to sin?

Well what come to my mind first is your username........ you are alive to God through His Son that said "pick up your cross and follow me" meaning that you (we) are to die daily. However if our old man was already destroyed dying daily would not be required of us. For example........ If Paul's "old man" had already been destroyed then Paul and the others would not have to die daily.

Jesus destroying our old man is the same as Him dying for the sins of the world....... He did die for the sins of the world and His work on the Cross is finished but there is still work to be done in us........ so we pick up our cross and die daily because without a death there cannot be a resurrection and to be resurrected as Christ is the hope of Him being formed in us.

For a similar example consider how Paul said that "we have the mind of Christ" that left in context (1Cor 2:16) has led many a Christian to believe that they have the mind of Christ when they do not.

They have fallen into that trap because they are disobeying the laws on how to determine the truth. Had they obeyed those laws and lived by every word that comes from God then they would have to weigh in why did Paul tell the church to "let this mind that was in Christ Jesus be in them" if in fact they already had the mind of Christ? (Phil 2:5)

Same thing goes with the example you used because without removing that passage from its context and comparing to other words spoken in the Bible and as Paul instruct us to,(1Cor 2:13) we cannot perceive the truth as God would have us to learn it.

Blessings

Doug

Aren't we To die daily in our flesh? The old man died says romans and galatians.

But back to my question because soms help with answers and some go way another way. Is Paul saying he IS à sinner and à saint as his identity or is He more talking about THE past and now Looking at himself as saint and how do we for ourselves need to See this? How Does God sees us and how should we See ourselves? And what would be THE consequenses of we See ourselves as saint And sinner instead of saint sometimes sinning?

God bless

How Does God sees us and how should we See ourselves? And what would be THE consequenses of we See ourselves as saint And sinner instead of saint sometimes sinning?

Gods sees you as you are and if you know the scriptures and are honest with yourself you see yourself the same way that He sees you.

For an example of a saint we have the first century church that were saints because of Christ in them that was given evidence through the signs and wonders that followed them.

We are all sinners saved by Grace and if we become saints it is because of His work and not ours............. as far as you are concerned you already know if you are doing the works of a saint or a sinner.

Blessings

Doug

Are we as à child of God from biblical perspective saints and Sinner or saint who sometimes sins, what is our identity as believer...that's what I mean.

And Does Paul mean in 1 timothy He IS à sinner as identity nOW or WAS à sinner because of all he did.

Ans how then do we interpretate 1 Tim. 1:15 what Paul says about himself? Is he calling himself sinner / saint or...?

Dirk,
To answer your question one have to look no furthur than the text itself. Just read the verse within the context. You will see that when Paul is refering to himself as the cheif, or the first( meaning the highesy ranking sinner), he is refering to his past sins.

12And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;

13Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

14And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

15This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

16Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

Sinners that defeat sin are "overcomers" that still have sin in them but because they walk by faith and not by sight they have overcome the wicked one and do not sin anymore

John makes reference to them in 1Jn 2:13-15

Blessings

Doug

still have sin in them

If you mean by sin the flesh, then Yes.

Although the Bible says the if someone in Christ the flesh is dead. It does not mean dead without the ability to rise. The flesh can rise any time when we fail to be in Christ or fail to continue to abide in Christ.

The word dead in Biblical use when it refers to spiritual deadness is diferent from physical deadness. While some one who is physically dead can not make himself rise from the dead. On the other hand, some one who is spiritually dead can rise from the dead by faith.

Eph 5:14
Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

Rev 3:1,2
1And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

2Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.

This is a thinking error

Is it really ....... are you saying that John is wrong and you no longer have sin because the old man is where the sin in you is?

Linn........... What does Paul really say?

Ro. 6: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin MIGHT be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Please notice my emphasis on the word "might" that reflects the possibility of the body of sin in you being destroyed but for now unfortunately it seems to be succeeding very well at fooling you

Jesus did lead captivity captive and if and when Christ is formed in you then you too will lead captivity captive....... but lets be honest here about Christ being formed in Christians because the true mind of Christ does the works of Christ that are seen through signs and wonders.

To put it bluntly without the signs and wonders that proves the presence of Christ within, what we are looking at in Christians who think that they do not have sin in them is an impostor that looks like Christ and we all know who that is.

Paul makes it very clear he was still dealing with sin that lives within him and within us after receiving the Holy Spirit

Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Paul continues with this doctrine of the law of sin living in him in 2nd Cor 12 when he speaks of the thorn in his flesh that is the messenger of satan. Later John speaks of sin still in Christians in his epistle and not only that but says very clearly that anyone who says otherwise is a liar.

By definition the term "law of sin" defines a principality still living within Christians and it will be within all Christians including you until the day you die ....... for more information of how law of sin has succeeded at deceiving christians through this "name and claim it" doctrine that you are speaking of and has gotten a hold of far to many Christians, please study the parable of the unclean spirit in Matt 12 and Luke 11

Now do you still think that sin in you has been destroyed and that both Paul and John are wrong ?...... or is it possible that are they are right and you have been deceived by the deceiver?

Being as between them and you that they are the ones with signs following them and not you, my money is on them.......... Because like the other Apostles they have overcome sin and are in harmony with God that allows Him to work miracle through them.

Blessings

Doug

Lesser Light, you say

"To put it bluntly without the signs and wonders that proves the presence of Christ within what we are looking at in Christians who think that they do not have sin in them is an impostor that looks like Christ and we all know who that is."

I believe you are walking on dangerous ground, Doug, if you believe that signs and wonders ie miracles, are the proof of the presence of Christ in a christian. Granted the early apostles did many signs and wonders, it was a very precious time, the birth of the church at pentecost, but the scripture does not indicate that we should be trying to emmulate or repeat that time.

A true christian has all the proof he needs within himself, the Holy Spirit constantly speaking in his heart, showing him the father's love and filling him day by day with all the glories of Christ. Yes, trials come, but they are as nothing.

The scriptures also warn us that in the last days there will be those who perform lying signs and wonders to deceive even the elect. Our faith does not lie in outward display of power, but in a day by day resting in Him. We live by faith, not by sight

David

David

God does not change and it is Him working the miracles and not the person!!!!!!

Acts 19: 11 And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul:

LOL...... For sure one thing I have noticed is that everyone whom God does not work signs and wonder through are the first ones to claim that Satan is doing the signs and wonders when the Bible tells us that by their fruit you shall know them......... why do you think it works that way David?

Jesus said that the works that He did were His Fathers works so it was with the Apostles and I happen to agree with them both........ do you disagree???? please be very specific!

James truly said that faith without being proved through works is dead and I agree with him ........ what about you?

Satan cannot raise the dead yet I have seen the dead raised and have plenty of witnesses to prove what I say but did I raise the dead? No I did not but God did it through me simply because I do not have the wall of sin in me made up of the false doctrines currently taught by the church that people who do not see the works of God believe in ....... but then you turn around and rather then help lead a babe in Christ come to the truth that sin still lives in us after we have been given the Holy Spirit given evidence through the two or more witnesses such as how Paul, John, Jesus, God and the Apostles repeatedly said are the base of the foundation of truth........ Amen?........ I think so.

Granted that AtG did provide two witnesses but she failed to consider EVERY WORD THAT COMES FROM GOD that is one of the commandment of Jesus because she did not consider the verses that I gave her for her edification.... thus she fell into error because she does not study the OT laws of God.

God delights in showing His power through those who worship in spirit and in truth........ He has always done so from the OT through the NT and anyone who defies that truth is calling the power of the Holy Spirit to be a liar......

After all David....... THAT IS HOW GOD HAS ALWAYS IDENTIFIED WHO ARE HIS CHOSEN FROM THE UNBELIEVERS......... do you agree or not ?????????

Now that you have entered into this this tell me something........ do the words "by their fruits you shall know them" mean anything to you???????

Thanks in advance for your reply

Doug

This does not sound anything like the Apostles teaching.

Was James not an Apostle or do you think that the works that he was speaking of that proved the faith in Him to be from God were just simple acts of kindness that the unbelievers of the world produce through all their gifts to charities?............ please be specific.

If someone is in harmony with God He show His miraculous powers through them............ and throughout the Bible that is ALWAYS what has defined God's chosen from the unbelievers of the world!

Now do you still stand behind what you said or are you willing to accept the truth?

Blessings

Doug

We must come to the understanding of who and what we are in Christ. The flesh can die and the soul and spirit live on.
The soul is our learning center, the spirit identifies us as to who we are, as persons of the soul "a living soul" or persons of the Spirit, "a life giving Spirit", one is dead in Adam the last is alive in Christ. The soul is where the Holy Spirit works, to conform us to the Mind of Christ, ever learning who we are in Christ. The Spirit of Christ is not the Holy Spirit, but the life giving Spirit that is rebirthed in the believer, "a new creature in Christ", "Christ who lives in me" etc, who cannot die or sin. The Spirit of Christ in the believer cannot sin, die, or anything else that is contrary to God's intended purpose before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:3-12 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

Born again in Spirit, being born again in the soul/mind, and will be born again when we receive our new body of flesh and bone, like His glorious body.

The soul can still sin, when we walk in the flesh, the Holy Spirit convicts us of sin and we acknowledge His work and hate the sin and repent and confess. 1 John 1:9

The Spirit of Christ that is in us cannot sin; Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Without the Spirit of Christ;

2 Peter 2:14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:

Separating the spirit, soul and body is where we understand who we are in Christ, by His Spirit alive unto God. In our soul/mind, learning to overcome the old man mind we still have and are still capable of sinning in the flesh, but not in the Spirit, which is Christ who cannot sin. The Mind of Christ in whom we now live is overcoming our fleshly mind by the Holy Spirit Teacher Parakleet who brings all things to mind that Jesus said, says and will say. These old man mind body pulls can still raise havoc in our lives, but as Paul says, Who will set me free from this body of sin, Praise God through Christ Jesus.

Hebrews 6:18-20 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us: Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, (minds) both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil; (Spirit) Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Romans 7:24-25 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind (Spirit controlled)I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh (old body pulls) the law of sin.

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

In Christ: Phillip

In response to the Orginal post.

I believe we are both...now before people go all crazy and say this is an impossiblity please understand we all come from different backgrounds and understanding. We are all progressively growing closer to our Saviour and Lord and will progressively learn and understand Who He is and Who we are in Him.

I believe we are Human and being human quite Fallible and capable of mistakes.

I believe that Christ died on the Cross to make a way to the Father for us. We as Christians, if we want access to the Father or communion and fellowship with the Father must access Him through the Son (Christ Jesus).

I believe we ourselves have ZERO Righteousness of our own, Our Righteousness is by Faith in Christ Jesus, ultimately HE is our Righteousness.

Without Christ there is no argument we are nothing and helpless. Its important that we look at the Word Saint and truly understand what this is talking about.

When someone thinks of Saint, they think of Holy, Perfect, Righteous, a Stand up guy/girl, pure, and etc, etc. Are humans this? Well I am a Christian and I would say I am definitely No Saint if this is the standing definition of Saint. However there is another definition for saint which simply means this, Set Apart, if we are set apart for Christ Jesus then by that definition we are a Saint.

There is a distinct difference between a sinner and saint and that is Nature or Additude. The Additude of a Sinner is I Love my sin and I will stay in it, the additude of the Saint however has a hatred for sin in their life and when they sin they don't rejoice but mourn.

The call of the Christian life is this, To Come to the Father through Christ Jesus by Faith. I believe in order to come to the Father requires a radical turning of some type this turning is away from Sin. The "saint" is progressively walking to Christ and as he/she walks to Christ they become more like Him.

We are all on the same Path if we are all Christians ie the Narrow One, but we must remember we are all very possibly on different places of this path some are further and some are way behind (myself) Some of us who are just leaving the World will find it a battle to get the worlds grips out of our skin and we will struggle with sin and at times even enjoy it *GASP* but ultimately the Holy Spirit convicts and corrects us through His various avenues.

Ultimately my point is this I have seen many people claim Sainthood and do it in the most proud and boisterous way as if THEY have achieved something wonderous to deserve such a title. Unfortunately the weight of a Saints sin is the same as a Sinners and so no merit can be given to the person for such a title. Christ takes SINNERS and progressively forms us into Saints however its all by Grace and Faith.

I believe I am a Saint in Christ but that's it nothing of myself warrants or merits this so its nothing I can boast about or parade around. I am a sinner by my human nature because I still live in my fleshly self, and will continue to live in this flesh till I die and will battle it until I die. I believe also I won't take the authority of Christ in calling myself a Saint from God the Father but will allow Him to make that decision because ultimately its His decision not mine.

We see that most of the famous last words of quite a few Godly Men were to the effects of I AM A WORM or I AM NOTHING etc etc, They knew their place and who they were.

I hope that clears something up for you :)

Excellent post, Matthew.

Saint vs sinner...I wonder what difference it would make in our spirit if we would allow ourselves to think of ourselves as being saints?

Ever notice how many times the Epistle writers refer to the Believers as saints? Not sinners but saints. According to e-Sword a saint is defined as: "hagos (an awful thing) compare G53, [H2282]; sacred (physically pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially consecrated): - (most) holy (one, thing), saint."

Too many times we think of saints as individuals who have achieved a god-like status, set apart - far above anything we hope to achieve. Yet 2 Cor.3:18 (NASB) describes something quite different: "But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit."

This transforming process can get quite unruly at times...so take courage, saints...

ginnyrose

I think it is going to be a natural response to see saints in a better light than how we would think a sinner appears yet the prodigal son was never "not a son". What about the lost sheep that Jesus celebrates being found?

Many times I have heard someone say "if so and so was really saved they would have never of done those things". However sin that is a noun and is a living principality is still alive in Christians after they "become saved". Paul make this very clear in Ro. 7:20 -24 and anyone who denies it is in error and living in the sin of unbelief even though they are still christians and called to be saints

Here in the Bible Belt of SC I find way to many "christians" that are senior church members, clergy members, and/or serving in the local government to be some of the most dishonest people I have ever met. But if you were to ask either them or other church members as to their "sinner or saint" status all that you are going to hear about is what good people they are.

Blessings

Doug

Sister Linn

The spirit of the life of Jesus Christ that is the law of faith in you does make you free from the law of in and death because through it you can overcome the law of sin still living in you. However that does not mean that sin in you, me or anyone else has already been destroyed. For the law of sin in us to be already destroyed would mean that the process of our sanctification is already complete.

Are you fully sanctified Linn?......... Personally I do not think anyone that is alive today is already sanctified but if you think different then please consider the following verse

He. 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

To be "one" in the scripture is to be the same as Jesus who is the expressed image of God who together are "one". In other words if we are fully sanctified then we appear the same as Jesus Christ and are not unlike the "fellow servant" that looked so much like Jesus in Rev. 19;10 that John who walked with Jesus throughout His Ministry was not able to tell them apart.

Paul makes it very clear that he is still dealing with the temptations of sin in Ro 7 that he goes as far a to call himself "wretched" over the constant diligence of keeping sin from overtaking him

The caps are my emphasis to help you see that the body of sin is still alive and well in Christians

Ro.7: 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, BUT SIN THAT DWELLETH IN ME.

18 FOR I KNOW THAT IN ME (THAT IS, IN MY FLESH,) DWELLETH NO GOOD THING: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, BUT SIN THAT DWELLETH IN ME.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and BRINGING ME INTO CAPTIVITY TO THE LAW OF SIN WHICH IS IN MY MEMBERS.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then WITH THE MIND I MYSELF SERVE THE LAW OF GOD; BUT WITH THE FLESH THE LAW OF SIN.

KJV again: Galatians 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Please note the key word "IF" in verse 25. Paul is obviously talking about us living in the Holy Spirit and not the unclean spirit of man yet the Holy Spirit that knows all truth also knows that Paul agrees that sin still lives in man. However since you say that sin is already destroyed how can you be living in the Holy Spirit when you disagree with what the Bible says about sin living in us?

Christ did vanquish Satan and put him to an open shame and it is through His Holy Spirit in us we can do the same........ getting to that point is part of our sanctification that we are still both going through as I speak.

Paul often speak of what has already been accomplished in them (the Apostles) as to what needs to be done in us but that is not to be confused with what work still need to be done in us

For example look how he speaks of the mind of Christ that destroyed sin at the Cross

1 Corinthians 2:16
For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.

Here Paul peaks of him and the others having the mind of Christ but not us........ how do we know that is so? The answer to that is in the next verse where he is exhorting us to acquire the mind of Christ

Philippines 2:5
Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

The mind of Christ besides having forgiven all the sins committed against us has all the knowledge of God starting with the seven foundational doctrines of He.6 1-3 that after we acquire God willing, will move us into the perfection that includes the removing of the law of sin in us........ until then we are to overcome it through the law of faith in us.

Blessings

Doug

Hello Approved

Man is vessel that lives by whatever spirit that is in the heart and if you take away the spirit the body is dead (James 2:26)

All of mankind is made this way but because the spirit of man is an unclean earthly spirit because of sin in it, through the blessing of Pentecost that follows our experience with the Passover sacrifice we are given the Holy Spirit that is a clean heavenly spirit and is part of the free gift of salvation.

When Peter saw that the Gentiles had received the Holy Spirit that now lived in their heart instead of the unclean spirit of man, through that knowledge and what God showed him in the vision Peter knew that the heart of the gentiles was now clean because of Holy Spirit was now living in place of the unclean spirit of man that had been in their heart before they were baptized with the Holy Spirit.

For what happens to the old unclean spirit is part of what we are talking about a sin still living in us so please consider the following teaching of Jesus

Matt 12: 43When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.

44Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.

45Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

The unclean spirit doe not have to travel far because the dry places are the dust that our bodies are made of...........Thus Paul said with the flesh he served the sin that till lived in him or with the mind he served God.

The life that is in our heart is seen through the actions taken by the mind that is part of the soul so if the unclean spirit returns to the heart as it does in the teaching of Jesus then the person is worse off then they were before.

Hopefully that explains what you are asking about

Blessings

Doug

Good Morning AtG

you may have further revelation from time to time as I have had, which will open up to you a different view than you have now. There is a brother who posts here sometimes who asks, 'If you haven't changed your mind recently, how do you know you still have one?'

God gave us His Laws for many good reasons and part of that is so that we can prove that our understanding is from Him and not from the mind of man. Should I ever change my understanding that has already passed the litmus test it will come about lawfully and in accordance to His Laws for determining the truth and not the opinion of any person(s). I only seek to please God and while I would prefer not to offend anyone, if that comes to be through me doing things God's Way then so be it.

You say that you are fully sanctified then I say because God does not change there is no reason why the works that have been done by others that have been sanctified and approved by God should not be seen coming from you.

The Apostles understood that many would become swayed by the traditions of man that make the Word of God to be of no effect that has produced the powerless church that we have today. James made it very clear that if one cannot show "faith with works" that are divine and done by God and not by man, then their faith is only capable producing "dead works" (works that are not divine in nature) that any fully sanctified Christian should be far beyond.

Satan has gone to great lengths to convince the church that miracles and signs and wonders are no longer following those whom God has chosen and unfortunately has succeeded more often than not. However those who know otherwise know that His ministry is not a ministry of signs and wonders but a ministry of truth that is always followed by signs and wonders.

Signs and wonders do not mean that a ministry is approved of by God but any ministry approved of by God either reveals the power of His presence or God is not there....... for those that are offended by that remark would do better to be concerned for themselves and their flock as to the reason why God has somehow overlooked them

When you care to share either privately or publicly your experiences of the signs and wonders are that are following your ministry I would love to hear about them

Blessings

Doug

Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
~ Galatians 3:5

When you say "God has given us His Laws". Which laws are we to observe and put into practice?

I am referring to the laws for determining the truth as first given to Moses that are repeated by Jesus and the Apostles. For example the phrase 'through two or three witnesses every truth shall be established" is the same law given to Moses to determining the innocence or guilt of a person....... just worded a little bit different.

Same thing with "no prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation" is just a NT version of the OT law that a single witness was not acceptable.

Isaiah 28 and in particular verses 9-13 are a summary of how the laws are to be applied to gain the knowledge that God would have us know.

Christians following the OT Laws that were given to the Jews as far as our conduct goes is not what the law is for. The laws are to be our schoolteacher to guide us into the fulness of Christ being formed in us rather than us worrying about what we eat or wear etc etc.

IMO for our personal everyday lifestyle, other than the ten commandments and the couple of additional ones given to us by Jesus are all that I believe we are to as you say "observe and put into practice"

If I sound a little evasive I apologize but I am bound by a contract not to go down paths that are covered in a book due out this spring.

Blessings

Doug

For instance, the law WAS not "is" our schoolmaster

Actually the law can take us far deeper than just identifying sin. When used In conjuction with the Holy Spirit it is the beginning and ending for how all doctrines can be proved or disproved.

Look at it this way....... if the law was no longer useful for our edification Jesus would have never said that those who learn the law and become able to teach it will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven while those who fail at learning it will become the least in His Kingdom.

Matt. 5: 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

I have something I wrote a few year back that is still used by some websites so I am comfortable with sharing it . It is only the first step of many that are found within the Laws given to Moses that God gave to us for our edification. I will get it posted pretty soon.

Those who come to understand it are blessed and on their way to the knowledge that Daniel spoke of that would be increased in the latter days. On the other hand those who do not miss out on much of what God has reserved for those who love Him.

Blessings

Doug

AtG said

What of Romans 10:4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Christ is the "end" of the law as in the end of a race.... Had Jesus not fulfilled the Law He would have never become the Christ. As Christ is formed in us He fulfills the law today just as He did 2000 year ago, thus the Apostles expressed the law

Look at it this way ........If what is being formed in us is not fulfilling the law then what is being formed in us is not Christ!

lesserlight,

I agree with you that while we are under the convenant of Jesus Christ, there are much deeper teachings in the law of moses than the simple fact that we are sinners. I believe every law, not just the 10 commandments has something to teach us.

Amen Andy......... Knowledge of the law gave David the keys to the kingdom and will do the same for us....... what I shared in that article is just the tip of an iceberg

Blessings

Doug

I don't know what other readers make of this kind of statement, but I hope some of them will respond, so it doesn't look like I'm the only person who feels you are tangling up so many ideas in short sentences, that what you write looks like you're trying to bounce a new religion into existence, off the platform of biblical and historic Christianity.

'as in the end of a race' just doesn't makes sense. There is a race, but it's not directly about the law which Jesus fulfilled, of which Paul says 'For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.'

Clearly, if CHRIST is our righteousness, the law has been superseded. This is the message across the whole epistle to the Hebrews.

Your other statement I wish to reject at face value, because you said nothing which implies you understand its implications, is

Had Jesus not fulfilled the Law He would have never become the Christ.

What this sentence says is, that you don't believe 'Jesus' was 'the Christ', from His birth.

That may not be what you intended to say, but please think very carefully about the reason angels announced His birth to shepherds, and a new star appeared in the sky to lead wise men to Him, and, why Herod was willing to order a massacre of toddlers, before defending that sentence in its entirety.

AtG....... you are worthy of rebuke!

Have you ever thought of doing some research before you post?

Try looking up the definition for the word "end"

To help you here is the Strong # you need to use "5056"

It is not me you are arguing with but with Jesus and God's Holy Word.......

Once again I use caps for your benefit

Matt 5 17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, BUT TO FULFIL.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 WHOSOEVER THEREFORE SHALL BREAK ONE OF THESE LEAST COMMANDMENTS, AND SHALL TEACH MEN SO, HE SHALL BE CALLED THE LEAST IN THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
.

A simple question turned into a discussion. We need to watch our hearts brothers and stand next to each other. I don't have the answers to my question as I would have like it seen but I got a few answers from people and I will study the rest myself. God bless.

The race to be won is the resurrection of Christ in us......... that is the crown of righteousness Paul had waiting for Him for running the race that he did

There is no second place and either you hit the mark and Christ is formed in you that is the high calling of our profession or you miss the mark and Christ is not formed in you

Blessings

Doug

Why is keeping or not keeping the Law such a fight between brothers and sisters, when we know the Law will not save us or give us any free ticket into the Kingdom of God?

"Ye must be born again".

The is only one punched ticket that when presented to God will allow us to enter His Kingdom. Jesus Christ is the Only One God the Father sees in the believer, He is no respecter of persons in our humaness, He only validates sons' by the Only Begotten first born Son that He rebirthed in the believer when we acquire the knowledge of; "Jesus Christ is the Son of God", Amen.

Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Either He is my perfection or I am my own perfection by what I accomplish for Him to get me in good standing with God the Father so I can say I ran the race, I kept the commandments, I love God, I, I, I, I..

Is it "His working which workfare in me mightily", or is it mine. This is my labor and striving, according to His working. This is my race, by His working, this is my Life by His Live, this is my all and all, Christ Jesus who lives in me, "It is no longer I who Live But, "Christ who lives in me."

I work and I strive because of His working in me. He is the only One that has my life in His hands, He has my ticket and it is soaked with His Blood, so when I show it to the Father, He will say, Come in my son.

In Christ: Phillip

Amen;

Even Abraham could do nothing until God began His work in Him.

In Christ: Phillip

Why is keeping or not keeping the Law such a fight between brothers and sisters, when we know the Law will not save us or give us any free ticket into the Kingdom of God?

"Ye must be born again".

The is only one punched ticket that when presented to God will allow us to enter His Kingdom. Jesus Christ is the Only One God the Father sees in the believer, He is no respecter of persons in our humaness, He only validates sons' by the Only Begotten first born Son that He rebirthed in the believer when we acquire the knowledge of; "Jesus Christ is the Son of God", Amen.

Philip

It is not a matter of keeping the law........ that is a Pharisee mindset but being able to use the law "lawfully" is a necessary first step to obtaining the knowledge needed for Christ to be formed in us.

Those seven foundational doctrines in He 6 that MUST be understood before Christ can be formed in you are just the start of the knowledge needed to possess before Christ can be formed in anyone. However without the knowledge of the law those doctrines will never be understood........ even though many christians think that they already understand those doctrines just like some christians think that they are already sanctified when they are not.

The mind of Christ formed in someone has knowledge of all the things of God, has forgiven all of their sins no matter the severity and is conduit for God to work signs and wonders through. However those things will never be achieved by anyone until they have the knowledge that the law reveals the things of God and the mind of Christ.

It never was about keeping the law........ all trying to do that proves that no one can keep the law however the knowledge that comes from understanding the law reveals the truth. When one does understand the law they are able to see that 90% of what is taught in 90% of the churches prohibits Christ from being formed in it membership and why signs and wonders are a thing of the past when it comes to the church.

All false doctrines and "thinking errors" are from Satan and nothing from Satan will ever get into heaven......... only the law can prove a doctrine to be true or false and the law and the Holy Spirit are always in agreement.

This is why David spent so much time studying the law and said that he delighted in it because of all the revelation that comes through the knowledge that the study of the law reveals ........ not about being able to keep 613 commandments that were never intended to be kept in the natural

Because the Church fails to pursue the knowledge contained within the law Hosea made the following prophecy

Hsa 4:6\tMy people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

It is impossible for any christian to acquire the mind of Christ without first understanding how God intends for His Law to be understood and used.

Blessings

Doug

Doug, you asked me to look at 'end' in Strong's, regarding Romans 10:4. I still don't see how it's related to 'as in a race'

For your edification

5056. telos tel'-os from a primary tello (TO SET OUT FOR A DEFINITE POINT OR GOAL); PROPERLY, THE POINT AIMED AT AS A LIMIT, i.e. (by implication) THE CONCLUSION OF AN ACT OR STATE (termination (literally, figuratively or indefinitely), result (immediate, ultimate or prophetic), purpose); specially, an impost or levy (as paid):--+ continual, custom, end(-ing), FINALLY, UTTERMOST

http://www.eliyah.com/cgi-bin/strongs.cgi?file=greeklexicon&isindex=5056

hi, when Jesus died on the cross for us, He took the judgement of the Father on Himself for us. there is therefore no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus.we were condemned already for sin before we repented(surrendered the rule of our lives over to rule of Christ in our lives)...making ourselves a living sacrifice unto Jesus.we do not do this ourselves for the Holy Spirit births us from above(you cant birth yourself)...being born from the Spirit we have the ability to walk in the Spirit...the law cannot do anything except point out the fact of the futility of trying to live by it without Christ,without the Holy Spirit...walking in the Spirit is walking in agreement with the law with out the bondage of theonus being on us.it becomes progressively easier to not have other gods or not to lie or steal or kill or covet because it is no longer something we are in charge of but it is under the control of the Holy Spirit that lives in us that leads us as we are being saved(sanctification)...our minds are now on the salution to the problem(Jesus)and not the problem(the law and our inability to keep it on our own).we become Christ centered and not self centered and as we grow we become others centered and even generous toward others because of Gods life living in us.it is a process as normal as life is a process.babies need all the help they can get as do toddlers but as one grows we need less help in the growth process and more in other areas.we are never to be in bondage to sin or to the law...we are bond slaves to Jesus who is truly responsible for our salvation.jimp

"Even as Jesus is, so are we in this world. I can do nothing of myself, salvation, redemption, be righteous, None wise, sanctification, or any other wise, for without Christ I am nothing and can do nothing, I only do as the Father tells me to do through the Life of Christ and the Holy Spirit teacher of this mind of Christ that is in me.

Like Christ, so are we in this world. How did Christ do it?

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

As me; I can do nothing of myself.

John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

As me; As I hear I judge, by the Christ in me and the Holy Spirit Truth.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in Him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without Me ye can do nothing.

My fruit can only come through the Abiding Christ that is in me. I abide in Him and He abides in me.

This is the whole of who we are in Christ;

Joh 14:1 ¶ Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Joh 14:4 ¶ And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
Joh 14:5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Joh 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
Joh 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Joh 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
Joh 14:12 ¶ Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
Joh 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
Joh 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
Joh 14:15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Joh 14:18 ¶ I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
Joh 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
Joh 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Joh 14:22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Joh 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
Joh 14:25 ¶ These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Joh 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
Joh 14:28 ¶ Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
Joh 14:29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.
Joh 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
Joh 14:31 But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.

"commandments"

Strong's Greek Dictionary
1785. entole
Search for G1785 in KJVSL
entolh entole en-tol-ay'
from 1781; injunction, i.e. an authoritative prescription:--commandment, precept.

My old husband Satan has no rule over me anymore, I am dead to him and he is dead to me, I am crucified with Christ, dead to the Law and my New Husband Has made me clean, presenting to Himself without spot of wrinkle a bride, which is the Body of Christ, Me and the whole Church of Christ which are in Him and He in us.

Law; Strong's Greek Dictionary
3551. nomos
Search for G3551 in KJVSL
nomoV nomos nom'-os
from a primary nemo (to parcel out, especially food or grazing to animals); law (through the idea of prescriptive usage), genitive case (regulation), specially, (of Moses (including the volume); also of the Gospel), or figuratively (a principle):--law.

See the difference?

Ro 7:2 For the woman that has a husband is bound by law to the husband while he lives, but if the husband dies, she is discharged from the law of the husband.

Ro 7:4 Therefore, my brothers, you also were made dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you would be joined to another, to him who was raised from the dead, that we might bring forth fruit to God.

1Co 7:39 A wife is bound by law for as long as her husband lives; but if the husband is dead, she is free to be married to whoever she desires, only in the Lord.

Ga 2:19 For I, through the law, died to the law, that I might live to God.

Alive in Christ and He alive in me, Incorruptable Seed born in me by the Word Himself through the Seed of the Father.

In Christ: Phillip

Matthew 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Is this free will, or the will of God?

I don't think we are to seek our own will either, even as Christ seeks not His own will but the will of the Father.

John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

If I seek my own will, I am lost and will do nothing to will my salvation. I can only believe the Will of the Father which He has sent to me, to reveal Christ in me, that is Christ birthed in me and now all that Christ is I am, will be. The only thing I cannot do is to become Jesus Christ the Only Begotten Son, but a son, yes I am a son by the Son birthed in me, I am becoming a son, by the Christ birthed in me and I will be a son by the Son birthed In me when on resurrection day I will have a body just like His. He saved me, He doth save me and He will save me.

Where does my free will take effect in all that God has, is and will do for my salvation in Christ. He did it all. I did nothing all I can say is at a Special time in my life I believed that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, not my will but His. Now that I believe I am being perfected and conformed to the image of Christ that is in me, all I want to do is the will of the Father whom the Son will reveal Him to me.

With Christ in me then I can; Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: I could not seek the Father or believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God unless it is revealed to me from above. "No man seeks His face".

Praise God In Christ, by His Faith I believe and am becoming I am and will be becoming an I am throughout all eternity in Christ, and with the Holy Spirit teaching me and He also the Holy Spirit being in me will bring forth the Son of God in me manifest to the whole of creation and we are called the son's of God.

Free will in my salvation, No. Free will after conversion, Yes, to seek His face and love Him as He loves me and keep His Commandments which are not grievous, but now warranted because of the Love of Christ that is in me.

In Christ: Phillip

Hi Doug,

Jesus said, For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. Matt 5:20

Surely Jesus became 'the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth' BECAUSE His righteousness exceeded the that of the scribes and Pharisees.

Good Morning Linn

Although the law was good it was weak through the flesh meaning that even when the Jews desired to follow the law they could not because the desires of the flesh overcame their desire to fulfill the law.

Unfortunately the word "law" is not as simple as something always being written in stone or on paper for us to read. Paul spoke of the "law of faith and the "law of sin" and these particular laws are not written on either paper or stone but are laws that are alive within us. They are "spiritual laws" that exist spiritually within us that produce actions in the natural that if described within the definitions of grammar are nouns that produce verbs in the image of the noun. The Bible calls these living nouns to be "principalities" and there are both good and evil principalities living within us.

Both the law of sin and the law of faith are subject to the law of the seed that is a law of God that simply stated says that each seed reproduces in its own image. Thus we see how the seed that is Christ in us brings forth works in the image of Christ. On the other hand the serpent seed (from the fall back in the Garden) begat the law of sin in man and is what makes the spirit of man unclean, brings forth the works of man that at best are not any better than being "filthy rags". Thus the law of sin is seen through acts (works) of sin that we may do while the law of faith is seen through acts (works) of faith that we may do.

Look at it this way....... Christ never sins so when a Christians sins it is not Christ in them that is committing the sin but is the spirit of man in them committing the sin. Whichever spirit is ruling the heart determines whether a person either sins or lives the righteousness of God that is way above the best that man can do. Consequently when a Christian sins it is because the "man of sin" is sitting in the temple of God". Unfortunately many of the fundamental churches today teach that the "man of sin" is an end time superman of sin sitting in a temple yet to be built in Jerusalem. (2The.2:2-4) when the truth is that the unclean spirit of man has returned to the heart and is ruling over the Christian instead of the Holy Spirit of Christ that should be ruling over them.

The righteousness of the Pharisees (who followed the law "religiously") could never fulfill all of the law but the Law of Faith in us that is the seed that is Christ in us fulfills all of the laws of God today just as it did when Jesus walked on the earth 2000 years ago...... This is why Paul said with the law of Faith he served God but with the law of sin he served the flesh (spirit of man).

Hopefully I have said that well enough so that it may be understood that even though you now have Christ the seed (Christ the Spirit) in you, the seed of man (the spirit of man) that has been in you since the day that you were conceived in your mother’s womb is still in you. Each spirit has its own mind thus James says for us not to be double minded and Jesus said that those who overcame as He overcame (by His Spirit ruling in your heart) would be given the gift of the morning star........ Jesus Christ is the morning star and is the fullness of Christ in you and not just the simple seed of Christ that you started with when you were first "saved".

That is the difference between being given the power (in the seed) to become a son of God (Jn.1:12) versus actually becoming a son of God (but with a small "s" in Ro.8:19)

How are we doing so far?

Blessings

Doug

Matthew 6:9-10 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
It does not say my free will be done. His will be done, not only in earth, but as in heaven. His will my salvation, wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption. That about says it. His will for a new creature in Christ, my will to love Him and His commandments kept by His power that is now in me and by the Holy Spirit revelation of Christ who loved me and gave His life for me.

In Christ: Phillip

Quote: Not just The Bride but "I AM" as well ?

Not "I AM", but i am. Only by the Christ Seed that The Father has birthed in me. Without Him "I AM" nothing.

He is the only perfection I claim, He that is in me. That is why I still have the privilege of physical death, spiritual death to self and life unto God.

In Christ: Phillip

The sin which corrupted the nature of man, bringing death upon all men, was executed on the cross when Jesus died, (Rom 6:6), and those who have received His death are not subject to it as they were before that, because the law of the Spirit of life IN Christ Jesus makes them FREE from the law of sin and death. That's one of the most important parts of the gospel.

I'm not sure you believe this though.

Linn you are wrong! ........ Satan and sin were brought captive but not destroyed.

Sin is still alive in you just as it was in Paul............ do I have to quote Paul again who said that the law of sin lived in him? (Ro. 7:23)

Paul make it very clear here and in Hebrews that sin is still a problem for Christians....... once again the caps are my emphasis for your benefit

He.12;1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, LET US THROW OFF EVERYTHING THAT HINDERS AND THE SIN THAT SO EASILY ENTANGLES. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us,

Where do you think faith is if it is not in you?

Through the Cross Jesus has made available for you the power to defeat sin in you just as He did for Paul who was able to figure out what you still have to yet to learn.......... That power to defeat sin is the law of Christ that is the faith in you that is a more powerful law than the law of sin is because Jesus was given a name above every dominion when He took captivity captive through His resurrection and not through His death (Eph 1:21)

However if you are going to continue to deny scripture that clearly says that sin exits in Christians and is always trying to trip them up I do not know of anyway to help you........

Linn....... either the Bible is the infallible word of God or it is not. Either sin always remains sin or the Bible is a lie. For example even if you do something as simple as intentionally tell someone a lie knowing that it is a lie, is that not a presumptuous sin? ... Are you positive that you have not told any lies since becoming a Christian that you knew was a lie at the time you told it ?....... and if so then would that not be a sin?

Just because a person accepts Christ does not change the definition of sin and when a Christian sins they need to repent and confess it or it will be held against them.

Blessings

Doug

Where did Paul say that?

'but the Law of Faith in us that is the seed that is Christ in us'

Can you bring forward scripture to support these statements, please?

Linn....... is the law of God not the law of Christ or in your mind is Jesus Christ not God incarnate?......... what law did Paul say that his mind used to overcome the law of sin in him?

Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death

God's Word is Law and His Law is spirit

Romans 7:14
 FOR WE KNOW THAT THE LAW IS SPIRITUAL: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Is the Holy Spirit not Christ the seed in you"....... what you need to do is figure out how you can get that seed of Christ to mature into a fruit producing tree of Jesus Christ in you.

How do you get faith? Is it not by hearing the Word of God so that the Word in you becomes the same Word that formed Jesus Christ?.... When the Word is complete in you is when Christ will be formed in you!

Faith is not your faith in Jesus Christ but the faith of Jesus Christ in you. Otherwise you would have to count on your own works to defeat the sin that lives in you and that is something that no person has ever accomplished.

The definition of something being in existence by law means that it is always in existence unless overcome by a more powerful law......... fortunately the law that faith works through (the law of Christ the seed in us) is a more powerful law than the law of sin is......... otherwise we would not be able to overcome sin and the "mystery of iniquity" would succeed in getting the unclean spirit of man returning to rule over the heart of a Christian instead of the Holy Spirit of Christ ruling over the Christian. (Matt 12, Luke 11)

Those who succeed with overcoming the law of sin will do so BECAUSE THEY OVERCOME AS HE OVERCAME THROUGH THE LAW OF CHRIST IN THEM!

If you plan on ever overcoming sin you first have to realize that Paul is telling you the truth about sin living in you........ otherwise that seed of Christ in you will never mature into a fruit producing tree.

Blessings

Doug

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death He might DESTROY him THAT HAD THE POWER OF DEATH, THAT IS, THE DEVIL.

Can't get any clearer than that!

The word "might" refer to something being possible and the word might appears in every translation I have looked at (about fifteen of them).

Furthermore if sin was destroyed then Christian would never ever have to worry about ever sinning again......... now do you possibly think that is the case?

A simple yes or no will suffice

Blessings

Doug

Where does sin get its power? From the spirit of a man. Who is that spirit before being born again? The Man of sin, Satan himself, the liar from the beginning.

When a believer is born again, what happens to the spirit of Satan? The spirit of Satan is out, the Spirit of Christ the Seed of God is in. It is not my spirit that sins, it is my mind in the flesh that sins. Christ my Spirit cannot sin. How does sin reach its conclusion in me? Not by my Spirit which is Christ but in my soul/mind is where;

James 1:13-21 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. Do not err, my beloved brethren. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath: For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God. Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

If my Spirit sins, I am being tempted by God and that can never be. So, where am I tempted? In the lust of my soul/mind, then when the lust of my soul/mind has conceived, sin comes forth and brings death with it. Where is my death, not in Spirit but in my Mind/Soul. That is why and how we can repent and confess and be cleansed from all unrighteousness. The Christ Spirit in me is always perfect and He cannot sin. I can sin, but not in spirit, only in my soul/mind which has all the body pulls of the old man spirit that is now dead, but my mind must be renewed to this conviction, I am dead to sin by the Christ Spirit that is in me, I can still sin by my own mind/soul that still has all the body pulls of the old man that is now dead, that is why I am renewing my mind to the Mind of Christ, which the scripture says I now have.

2 Corinthians 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us;

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.

We are delivered in Spirit, (new life in Christ). We are being delivered in our soul/mind, (through the Mind of Christ in us)by the Holy Spirit. We will be delivered completely in our new bodies of flesh and bone (no blood), just like Jesus and His glorious body.

In Christ: Phillip

Alive-to-God wrote on 2011/1/6

Doug, I'd like to make this my last post in this thread. I hope if others think I'm as wrong as you do, they will back you up. Thanks for the discussion.

I'm glad you're back and I don't think you're wrong.

God bless,
Lisa

This statement "that He might" is not an if, but a certainty the He is able and by His Power He accomplished it. Satan out and Christ birthed in the believer.

Matthew Poole's Commentary on the Holy Bible
Hebrews 2:14 carries the import of the fulness of the destruction the Devil has over the human race by the Law, which Kills, but is a perfect statement of what God requires to come to know God and His full and complete control of His own creation. Ephesians 1:4-5 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Matthew Poole's Commentary on the Holy Bible
Hebrews 2:14

But being God, besides his Divine nature, &c., to it he took the human, even their true and full nature, consisting of a body and a soul, and so united them, that in him they became one person; so that hence results a double union of Christ with man. By his incarnation he is of one nature with all the human race, body and soul and so is the Head of them: and by his dying for them all the human race are made salvable By His Devine Spirit and nature of the Father, which angels are not; and those who believe on him, are actually sanctified and united to and in Him and Him in us, as His elect and chosen body, and shall be saved by Him.

((((That through death he might destroy him that had the power of death:)))) by his dying on the cross as testator of God's covenant, and not by his power as a God, (which was most glorious to himself, but most ignominious to the devil, according to the promise, Ge 3:15), did he abolish, or bring to nought, and render powerless without any recovery, not by taking away the immortal life and being, but the kratoV, the strength and power to kill. For the ezousia, the authority, right, and command, the keys of death, are in Christ's hand only, and he useth the strength of this execution in it, as to his enemies; when sinners become penitent believers, then his death satisfying God's justice for their sin, hath executed the power as to death, which the devil had by law against them: 1Co 15:56-57: The sting of death is sin, that gives him power; and the strength of sin is the law, that, unless satisfied for, takes part with sin; but Christ by dying takes away the law's enmity, removes sin, as to guilt, stain, and power, and so brings to nought this power.

That is, the devil; the prince himself, set here collectively for all the rest of his evil spirits, Mt 25:41, who by his lies drew man into sin, and by sin stings him to death; having therefore such power to seduce to sin, he powerfully renders men obnoxious to death: and then, as executioner, having them by the law delivered into his hands, putteth forth his strength to torment and destroy them. Christ by his death doth with price and power redeem them out of his hand, and destroys all his works, takes possession of them, and brings them through death to eternal life. Ver. 14. For we are made partakers of Christ: for shows this to be a rational motive, urging home the former counsel, unto which the following condition doth agree; for we believing Christians and Brethren are made metocoi, partners with the primitive Proprietor supposed in it, even Christ, who hath of his own the fulness of God, life, grace, glory, and all good; in all which fulness of his we share, by virtue of our union with him, Joh 1:16; Eph 1:22-23; Col 1:19; 2:9-10; and he by his Spirit will free us from the deceitfulness of sin, and hardening by it.

If we hold the beginning of our confidence; if by a spiritual tenaciousness, and firm fixing in our hearts, we hold archn, either the principal or fundamental truth, as the word signifieth in sciences; or, the entrance or beginning of our course, as used in things, so as the first step in Christianity is styled a beginning of grace.

Stedfast unto the end: upostasewV, in personal relations, is, a real subsistence, as of the Son in the Trinity, Heb 1:3; in things, the basis and foundation upholding others; and this in Christianity is Christ principally, who bears up his church, Eph 2:20-22. And faith, the instrument whereby we receive Christ, is so called, Heb 11:1, that which renders present and subsisting what is hoped for to the soul; so that here it imports the retaining firm that principle of truth, upon which Christians are bottomed and supported to life, that is, Christ himself, and the true doctrine of him; as also, that we must firmly stand in the first beginnings of faith, and increase in them, so as they may be firmly fixed in our hearts, and our hearts on them, so as never to be removed as long as we live. Our retaining firmly of this, makes us partners in Christ; both instrumentally helping in it, and evidentially; it being the infallible consequence of true grace, holding us to this communion with Christ. How ought these conditions to quicken the activity of believers!

"might destroy him"

Strong's Greek Dictionary
2673. katargeo
Search for G2673 in KJVSL
katargew katargeo kat-arg-eh'-o
from 2596 and 691; to be (render) entirely idle (useless), literally or figuratively:--abolish, cease, cumber, deliver, destroy, do away, become (make) of no (none, without) effect, fail, loose, bring (come) to nought, put away (down), vanish away, make void.

In Christ: Phillip

But Jesus didn't just leave it there he also 'became SIN for us

Andy......... Jesus never became sin....... He became a sin offering for us and was only able to do so because He had no sin

There is a significant difference between the two and you need to get that right within you because it is part of the foundation of Christ in you........ Looking around here and listening to what he is being said is enough to make angels cry

No wonder Hosea said that God's people perish because of their lack of knowledge.

At a basic level Christians are to be baptized in the Holy Spirit that is always given evidence through some gift of the spirit that the least of is speaking in tongues. Unfortunately I am receiving an unction that there are those here who have never received the baptism of the Holy Spirit therefore they do not have the spirit within them that would allow them to see the truth that would set them free from the lies they are believing in.

This can be corrected and those here who have yet to ever display any of the supernatural gifts of the spirit need to consider the fact that the Holy Spirit is always given with evidence. If there has never been any evidence it is because the Holy Spirit is not in them.

I am not speaking of signs and wonders as in miracles but just the simplest of spiritual gifts such as the gift of tongue or the ability to prophesies (truthfully and accurately) as well as understand the prophecies in scripture that are from Genesis to Revelations......... If either of those two of the simplest of spiritual gifts are not present with you then you need to ask God why for some reason He has left you out.

Christians still having sin in them is amongst the most basic and plainly stated foundational knowledge there is. Those who are hearing otherwise are not hearing from God but are hearing from the father of all lies.

2 Peter 1:19
We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

When Christians receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit it is the spirit of Jesus that is the light coming into their heart that is the dark place because of the presence of sin in man. However as the scriptures say the darkness cannot comprehend the light and the reason why there are people here who cannot comprehend the simplest of foundational knowledge is because the light has yet to come into them.

Darkness is not changed to light but instead light displaces darkness....... the brighter the light the more of the faith that displaces the darkness of Satan all the way up until the completion of ones sanctification when Christ is finally formed in them........ when that happens signs and wonders always follow that blessing just like the simple gifts of the spirit always follow the baptism of the Holy Spirit that is the start of the light coming into a dark place.

However Without first being baptized in the Holy Spirit that is always given with evidence, Christ cannot ever be formed in someone !!! ......... Or stated In laymen's terms it is as simple as "no seed no tree".

Blessings

Doug

Doug I agree and disagree with your statements made. To say that Speaking in Tongues is an evidence is false, speaking in tongues is a gift of the Holy Spirit, not evidence. The ONLY Evidence of Holy Spirit baptism that lines up with ALL of Scripture is the Fruit of the Spirit Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Gentleness,Faithfulness, Goodness, and Self Control. These are the only marks of evidence we find in scripture. The Gifts are gifts not evidence.

We see many Christians that we hold in high regard that by your definition have never been baptised by the Holy Spirit, but many of these Saints has/had an undeniable Holiness and Love and devotion to God. I have seen one to many Pentecostals be puffed up in pride from this doctrine of Tongues and infact have seen an outrageous amount of them become so focused on the Gift they neglect the Giver of the Gift.

I believe there can be genunue tongues that operate in the church however I have seen many people use this Gift as simply a means to gain acceptance and so can't be used as a viable "evidence" but only the Fruits of the Spirit can be used as viable and tangable evidence of Holy Spirit Baptism.

You may very well disagree with me but please take into consideration what I have said.

*edited Grammatical errors :)*

The ONLY Evidence of Holy Spirit baptism that lines up with ALL of Scripture is the Fruit of the Spirit Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Gentleness,Faithfulness, Goodness, and Self Control. These are the only marks of evidence we find in scripture. The Gifts are gifts not evidence.

Mgulder........ thank you for your reply but unfortunately you have been decieved.

Throughout history and the Bible God has always showed his presence through supernatural events or at the least supernatural gifts of the spirit.

Granted love and joy etc etc are to be present but one does NOT have to have Christ within them to display what you are saying are the" ONLY" evidence of the Holy Spirit and I hope for your sake that you are able to grasp that.

When Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil they ate the fruit where the seed is and within that fruit were the seeds of the knowledge of both good and evil. Consequently and because the law of the seed that is one of the laws of God, anyone can produce either good or evil. Thus after they sinned and not before Adam and Eve brought forth both Cain and Abel as in good and evil.

When Paul went to the Greeks he spoke of those who worshipped an unknown God that even though they did not have the law they still followed after the law....... why they did that is the same reason because Adam and Eve eating the seed of the knowledge of good one can have all the nice things that you are speaking of but still not ever have received the Holy Spirit of Christ. Anything less than that is a lie straight from the father of all lies.

However the signs of Pentecost are only from God and are a sign of the Holy Spirit that is the seed that is Christ being given to a person. Just because one is baptized in the Holy Spirit does not mean that they cannot still be swept away by Satan....... unfortunately that happens all the time and the dog returns to its vomit because of the sin that is still in Christians after they have received the Holy Spirit.

Blessings

Doug

Welp no need to sidetrack this thread. I see you are unwilling just as I am unwilling to budge on my stance on the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Keep in mind Faith, Hope, and Love are the Greater gifts and are the ones we are to seek diligently.

May I ask though one that isn't Baptist, as you say, are they saved from eternal hell?

May I ask though one that isn't Baptist, as you say, are they saved from eternal hell?

Neither am I Baptist or for that matter any of the mainstream denominational belief system.

However as far as eternal hell goes the doctrine of eternal judgment is one of the required foundational doctrines of He. 6 needed to posses the knowledge of and the order that they are given to us in is for a good reason.......... and if you look you will see that eternal judgement is the last one listed and is far far away from where we have so far gotten to in this thread.

BTW concerning your beliefs on the "only evidence" of the Holy Spirit I am curious as to how you support your position scripturally?

Blessings

Doug

Lesserlight,

Where does this ‘no seed? no tree” stuff come from? I looked it up and the only thing that came up was prosperity teachers; one in particular kept, Robert G. Allen; is that what you believe? Are you a word of faith type of Christian?

Granted love and joy etc etc are to be present but one does NOT have to have Christ within them to display what you are saying are the" ONLY" evidence of the Holy Spirit and I hope for your sake that you are able to grasp that.

Neither does one need the Holy Spirit to "speak in tongues."

I have always been taught that as the apostles on Pentecost, the primary evidence of the Holy Spirit, is power. Power to overcome sin and self.

Acts 1:8 "But ye shall receive power, after that Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea...."

Love, joy, peace, temperance, longsuffering, gentleness, goddness, faith, meekness are the fruit of an overcoming life. It is what will flow out of a person that is walking in Christ and overcoming the self life. Crucified with Christ.

Other verses:1 Cor 2:5 1 cor 4:19-20 2 Tim 3:5

The ONLY Evidence of Holy Spirit baptism that lines up with ALL of Scripture is the Fruit of the Spirit Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Gentleness,Faithfulness, Goodness, and Self Control. These are the only marks of evidence we find in scripture. The Gifts are gifts not evidence.

Mgulder........ thank you for your reply but unfortunately you have been decieved.

The correct Scripture is, “"So then, you will know them by their FRUITS.”

I like chicken.

How in the world have you concluded that the flesh of man is the same as the spirit of man?

Well what spirit do you think it is that gives life to the natural man because a body without a spirit is dead........ period and no if ands or buts about it. (james 2;26)

Suggest you read the the teaching of the unclean spirit in Matt and Luke 11 and get a handle on the truth of the spirit and soul of the "natural man" that without any spirit within them is as dead a someone who has been dead for thousand years.

In that teaching you will see where the unclean spirit when he goes "out from the man" (the life is in the blood and the blood is pumped by the heart which is where whatever spirit resides that is ruling over the person) he then wanders in the dry places that is the dust that your physical flesh is made of where he then runs into the wicked friend that are the human senses that get people in trouble today just as it got Adam and Even in trouble

In 1Cor 15 Paul speak of the the different types of flesh that either appear before the throne of God or likened to christians (fish) ....... now do you possibly think that there are animals sitting around the throne in heaven in Revelations as God's personal pets or just maybe that God is being pictured ruling over the different natures of man that appear allegorically a different animal throughout the scriptures through ....... for your sake I hope that your belief is in the latter.

BTW in your other post why are speaking about a word that does not exit in the passage in question?

Blessings

Doug

mguldner is not deceived. In Matthew 7 Jesus did NOT say that we would know false teachers and false prophets, “by their gifts.” No, He did not!

The correct Scripture is, “"So then, you will know them by their FRUITS.

Lysa...... As part of your sanctification process and learning how to overcome sin you are supposed to grow in knowledge

When Jesus said to the crowd who were in disbelief that He was the Son of God what are the works that He spoke of that were the "fruit that He was known by"....... were they kindness and love etc etc that you are claiming are the fruits that determine that Christ is in a person or were they signs of the presence of God doing divine works through signs and wonders?

WELL WHAT DID JESUS SAY?

John 5:36
“I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to finish—the very works that I am doing—testify that the Father has sent me.

John 10:25
Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me

John 10:32
but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”

John 10:37
Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father.

Now let us look at the verse you have referenced

Matthew 7:20 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Do you see anything in that entire chapter where Jesus Christ was saying that the fruits that would identify the apostles and prophets of those day as well as today would only produce simple fruits that any nice atheists, Jew, Muslim etc etc can produce?......... or does Jesus say the following to us for our edification as to who would do the works of God?

The same as for AtG the caps are my emphasis for your benefit.

Jn 14 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

12Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, THE WORKS THAT I DO SHALL HE DO ALSO; AND GREATER WORKS THAN THESE SHALL HE DO; because I go unto my Father.

Do you know what my fear for you is Lisa?

Even though that you have just been proven wrong you will not see it and will still prefer the traditions of man that makes the Word of God to be of no effect that has caused the godless church that we see on every main street in this country.

However there are those that do produce the signs and wonders that Jesus did that are by the grace of God in them and not the presence of satan in the church that causes todays christians to think that they are not suppose to be producing divine works and instead like you are satisfied with the works that any nice atheist can do.......... such a shame and it is no wonder why one name that Jesus called the church in Revelations to be is that it is/was the synagogue of satan

Still Blessings to you and I hope for your improvement

Doug

I was trying to stay out of this thread but I must say that I agree with Alive-to-God’s assessment...

One of the difficulties your doctrines present to Bible believing Christians, is that from time to time you blatantly disagree with scripture.

And this is one of those times.... to tell Christians that God has left them out and that Christ cannot be formed in them because they don’t speak in tongues is pure and simple error.

lesserlight wrote on 2011/1/11
If either of those two of the simplest of spiritual gifts are not present with you then you need to ask God why for some reason He has left you out.

Without first being baptized in the Holy Spirit that is always given with evidence, Christ cannot ever be formed in someone!!!

Brother, I believe in the baptism of the Holy Ghost (Spirit), I believe in speaking in tongues along with all the gifts. But no where have I found Scripture to even allude to what you are saying.

Scriptures states three ways that we overcome In Revelation 12.11, “And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.”

Will you please provide the Scriptures that explicitly state that 1. God has left any one out because they do not speak in tongues? 2. That we overcome by speaking in tongues alone? I look forward to Scriptural evidence of the questions.

PS: Does your doctrine have a name?

I was trying to stay out of this thread but I must say that I agree with Alive-to-God’s assessment...

One of the difficulties your doctrines present to Bible believing Christians, is that from time to time you blatantly disagree with scripture.

And this is one of those times.... to tell Christians that God has left them out and that Christ cannot be formed in them because they don’t speak in tongues is pure and simple error.

lesserlight wrote on 2011/1/11
If either of those two of the simplest of spiritual gifts are not present with you then you need to ask God why for some reason He has left you out.

Without first being baptized in the Holy Spirit that is always given with evidence, Christ cannot ever be formed in someone!!!

Jesus said in John 14.17, “but you know Him because He abides WITH you, and will be in you.” The Holy Spirit is WITH every born again believer.

Brother, I believe in the baptism of the Holy Ghost (Spirit), I believe in speaking in tongues along with all the gifts. But no where have I found Scripture to even allude to what you are saying.

Scriptures states three ways that we overcome In Revelation 12.11, “And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.”

Will you please provide the Scriptures that explicitly state that 1. God has left any one out because they do not speak in tongues? 2. That we overcome by speaking in tongues alone? I look forward to Scriptural evidence of the questions.

LISA!!!!.......... This is not the first time you have born false witness against me and like AtG you are worthy of rebuke

You said

to tell Christians that God has left them out and that Christ cannot be formed in them because they don’t speak in tongues is pure and simple error.

Where and when did I ever say that and why did you not just quote me unless you figured you would get away with either twisting and adding words to what I did say that is for your benefit only .......... or without any shame you are purposely telling a lie and thinking that no one will go back and check my posts........... Which one is it?

This is a quote of what I said and it is hardly just a small difference

I am not speaking of signs and wonders as in miracles but just the simplest of spiritual gifts such as the gift of tongue or the ability to prophesies (truthfully and accurately) as well as understand the prophecies in scripture that are from Genesis to Revelations......... If either of those two of the simplest of spiritual gifts are not present with you then you need to ask God why for some reason He has left you out.

Why would you not just quote my post as I have done if you were not trying to twist and change my words to say something that I did not say?

Now I will say this very clearly and you are welcome to quote me as well as you can take to the bank or bet the farm or any other local quip that is used in your locale that translated means a sure thing........ that if someone has not ever brought forth any signs of the divine presence of God in them then they have not been baptized in the Holy Spirit and any one who has been baptized in the Holy Spirit has experienced the divine works of God. In addition to that a Christian will not experience Christ being formed in them without first being baptized in the HOLY SPIRIT that is the Christ seed in them that gives them the power to become a son of God

And to you personally if you do not agree with that then those who have been teaching you still need to be taught

Peter also agrees to that doctrine and I am going to give a once and for all time reason that since there no highlight buttons here that I can find that for the benefit of you or anyone else that when I use caps that are not in the original text I do so for your benefit and I am no longer going to take the time to state so every time I use caps for the benefit of someone else.

2 Peter 1:4
Whereby are GIVEN UNTO US EXCEEDING GREAT AND PRECIOUS PROMISES: THAT BY THESE YE MIGHT BE PARTAKERS OF THE DIVINE NATURE, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

LISA....... God marks His children by the presence of the divine that is the seal of the promise given to us......... and while you are quoting me you can add this.....This business of anyone here or anywhere else that thinks the following ...... that because they believe on the name of Jesus they have automatically overcome sin, automatically been baptized in the Holy Spirit (that is only the "earnest" of our inheritance") and are automatically already sanctified without any sign of the divine presence of God in them yet still be able to sin without any repentance fear or of the Lord is a doctrine straight from the pits of hell and something that the Apostle never ever preached..... and that you can take to the bank and quote me all you want....... but please no more false accusations............. fair enough?

A far as the doctrines, names or labels that you are peaking of goes ......... I know nothing of who or what you are talking about.

However for your benefit I will say this ........ the people that I am like-minded with all participate in some sort of divine gift from God and speaking in tongues is not held in any more esteem than what it is and that is that it is the least of all gifts......... In other words those who are above that level either prophesy what is true and does happen or are able to lay hands on to heal or through the power of the Holy Spirit in them are able to baptize others in the Holy Spirit all the way up to and including the raising of the dead.......

Unfortunately tongues is a highly abused and over emphasized gift and without an interpreter i not benefiting anyone else beyond the speaker.......... it was about nine years ago when I said to the Lord that I preferred to never pray in tongues again and that I would always know exactly what I was saying when I prayed....... and I have not prayed in tongues since then however I seen many other signs of the divine presence. For a FYI I have seen every one of the above divine gifts however these things are only the norm for those who have been baptized in the Holy Spirit and those that I am likeminded with all seek far greater things to come.

One of these days and hopefully before this life comes to an end you are going to find out that your worship is deeply rooted in Babylon where they still worship the image of the beat that is the spirit and mind of man.

Doug

PS........ the blood the lamb is where the Holy Spirit come from and why we have to fist go to Cross and cannot go directly to Pentecost

However you cannot have His testimony in you that is His truth in you without making it through Pentecost and Tabernacles where first you get the law written on your heart at Pentecost and then finally the gift that comes from tabernacles that you are not yet prepared to receive but Jesus referred to it a new wine bottles

To Andy ........ Please learn the spirit of the word....... Christ never has sin and it is only because he is a sinless offering for sin that that qualified him to pay our debt for sin and is our covering for sin..... that is what your passage means

lesserlight wrote on 2011/1/11
Where and when did I ever say that and why did you not just quote me unless you figured you would get away with either twisting and adding words to what I did say that is for your benefit only

Repost of mine from earlier today: Where does this ‘no seed? no tree” stuff come from? I looked it up and the only thing that came up was prosperity teachers; one in particular kept, Robert G. Allen; is that what you believe? Are you a word of faith type of Christian?

You are in error to even insinuate that God that, “Without first being baptized in the Holy Spirit that is always given with evidence, Christ cannot ever be formed in someone.” I hope you are satisfied that I quoted you and.... you are still in error.

And please, do not even think to chastise me; I will submit to the moderator’s chastisement alone, not yours.

I must see myself on the Cross with Christ OR Gal 2:20 is false and needs to be taken out of the Bible.

It was me and my sin that Christ took upon Himself, thus making Him to be sin for Me, "us". I was a sinner, I was full of sin, I had the liar, sin himself in me as my spirit, I could not rid myself of Satan or sin, I needed a sinless person to become me and die in my place. This is the only way I am able to be free from sin and a fruitful offering to God the Father by the death of Jesus Christ who was MY SIN and DEATH in my place, that I might live unto God the Father, who had prepared Christ to die before the foundation of the world and be in me as my new Spirit, the old spirit of Satan my old father is no longer whom I serve. My New Spirit, Jesus Christ has made His Father, my Father of whom I am now a son by the Seed of Jesus Christ in me. "The Lamb slain before the world began" and Eph 1:4

Jesus Christ took upon Himself all my sin and death and Satan as my death/life and Made me free. For "whom the Son will set free is Free Indeed".

The only way Jesus could be sin was to be the sin atonement for me, taking my sin and dying on the Cross for me and all those that believe that Jesus Christ is the sinless Son of God.

Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible
2 Corinthians 5:21

Who knew no sin. He was not guilty. He was perfectly holy and pure. This idea is thus expressed by Peter, (1Pe 2:22;) "Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth;" and in Heb 7:26, it is said, he was "holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners." In all respects, and in all conceivable senses, the Lord Jesus was pure and holy. If he had not been, he would not have been qualified to make an atonement. Hence the sacred writers are everywhere at great pains to keep this idea prominent, for on this depends the whole superstructure of the plan of salvation. The phrase "knew no sin" is an expression of great beauty and dignity. It indicates his entire and perfect purity. He was altogether unacquainted with sin; he was a stranger to transgression; he was conscious of no sin; he committed none. He had a mind and heart perfectly free from pollution, and his whole life was perfectly pure and holy in the sight of God.

That we might be made the righteousness of God. This is a Hebraism, meaning the same as divinely righteous. It means that we are made righteous in the sight of God; that is, that we are accepted as righteous, and treated as righteous by God on account of what the Lord Jesus has done. There is here an evident and beautiful contrast between what is said of Christ, and what is said of us. He was made sin--we are made righteousness; that is, he was treated as if he were a sinner, though he was perfectly holy and pure--we are treated as if we were righteous, though we are defiled and depraved. The idea is, that on account of what the Lord Jesus has endured in our behalf we are treated as if we had ourselves entirely fulfilled the law of God, and had never become exposed to its penalty. In the phrase" righteousness of God" there is a reference to the fact that this is his plan of making men righteous, or of justifying them. They who thus become righteous, or are justified, are justified on his plan, and by a scheme which he has devised. Locke renders this, "that we, in and by him, might be made righteous, by a righteousness imputed to us by God." The idea is, that all our righteousness in the sight of God we receive in and through a Redeemer. All is to be traced to him. This verse contains a beautiful epitome of the whole plan of salvation, and the peculiarity of the Christian scheme. On the one hand, one who was perfectly innocent, by a voluntary substitution, is treated AS IF he were guilty; that is, is subjected to pains and sorrows which, if he were guilty, would be a proper punishment for sin: and on the other, they who are guilty, and who deserve to be punished, are treated, through his vicarious sufferings, as if they were perfectly innocent; that is, in a manner which would be a proper expression of God's approbation if they had not sinned. The whole plan, therefore, is one of substitution; and without such substitution there can be no salvation. Innocence voluntarily suffers for guilt, and the guilty are thus made pure and holy, and are saved. The greatness of the Divine compassion and love is thus shown for the guilty; and on the ground of this it is right and proper for God to call on men to be reconciled to him. It is the strongest argument that can be used. When God has given his only Son to the bitter suffering of death on the cross in order that we may be reconciled, it is the highest possible argument which can be used why we should cease our opposition to him, and become his friends.

AGAIN: On the one hand, one who was perfectly innocent, by a voluntary substitution, is treated AS IF he were guilty; that is, is subjected to pains and sorrows which, if he were guilty, would be a proper punishment for sin: and on the other, they who are guilty, and who deserve to be punished, are treated, through his vicarious sufferings, as if they were perfectly innocent; that is, in a manner which would be a proper expression of God's approbation if they had not sinned. The whole plan, therefore, is one of substitution; and without such substitution there can be no salvation.

It should have been me to die on that Cross, I deserve it, Jesus did not. Praise God in the Highest; Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

This is the mystery of Godliness, that Paul preached in all his epistles, "My Gospel".

In Christ: Phillip

Jn 14 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

12Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, THE WORKS THAT I DO SHALL HE DO ALSO; AND GREATER WORKS THAN THESE SHALL HE DO; because I go unto my Father.

Beware lest you make an idol of the works God has graciously used you to perform.

Matt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

The priority, before the outworking of any 'ministry' we have, is to worship God. To reject every idol from our heart and life. To obey His calling on our individual lives, without neglecting our role in His body.

1 John 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

John 4:23 [Jesus said] But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.'

John 21:21 Peter seeing him [John] saith to Jesus, Lord, and what [shall] this man [do]? 22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what [is that] to thee? follow thou me.

Like you, I hope to be recognised by the Lord, on that day.

Good morning AtG

Thank you for that last statement.

Be rest assured that signs and wonder are not idols to me but are a reminder that I do not have any excuse not to fully apprehend who has apprehended me even though I make a considerable effort to walk the path of placing Him on the throne by first putting myself on the Cross. Thus I die daily and work out my salvation complete with trembling and fear of the judgment to come should after all that He has done for me that I fall short of what is expected of me.

Sign and wonders are a sign of obedience and harmony in the relationship between us and God. While on one hand obedience is a cut and dry situation harmony means to be in agreement with the mind of Christ. God worked signs and wonders through the Apostles to the extent that He did because they were on one accord and in harmony with God through possessing the mind of Christ. Having the same mind as Jesus they did the same works as Jesus and it is no different today.

Those whom God works signs and wonders through are done on the level of the harmony that they are in with God. In other words great faith produces great works and little faith produces little works. Consequently those whom signs and wonders are seen coming from are held more responsible should they be found to fall short and mess up in their obedience to their Father.

Jesus said this when He spoke of those to whom much is given will be held to a higher level of accountability........ so as I said at the beginning of this post, be rest assured that signs and wonder are hardly idols to me but reminders of the level of responsibility that I am held to. Having already died once while medically being declared dead and while "on the other side" witnessing the resurrection of the dead, I shudder at the thought that after having been sent back to this life (when I would have rather not come back) that in any way should I fail to walk as He would have me to walk.

A few years ago when after a major doctrinal dispute that caused a serious rift between other ministries and myself as well as problems in my personal life, I told God to find someone else to teach His children. He tolerated that attitude from me for awhile and some of my tormentors received their just due rewards despite me praying for their forgiveness as I had forgiven them (albeit first my emotions had to quiet down).

Unfortunately they had crossed a line with God because there are things that He will not tolerate coming from those whom He has given more to than he has to others. Some people think that what happened in Acts when persons died after having crossed a line drawn by God does not happen anymore. However it still does and I know others besides myself that have witnessed people dying because of their rebellion and blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Meanwhile because of the lack of truth being taught that line is not often drawn these days but in reality that cannot hardly be considered a blessing. The bottom line is like John and Paul both said there is a sin unto death and personally I believe this is the reason why some of God's children are told not to throw their pearls down before swine........ For those who have ears that hear they know that unlike some unclean animals swine are lawfully partially clean so please give all the reasons why some deep thought.

Anyway......... When I continued to refuse sharing with others what He had showed me then I too came under judgement. Consequently and in time I heeded Him (albeit after considerable loss and heartbreak) and I wrote the book. However to be frank with you without someone's foundational knowledge being at least at the level that thankfully I do see within some members here, most will not understand it and would be better off working on their foundation then trying to skip grades and come to the level where signs and wonders are seen

Should you or anyone else ever come into agreement and in harmony with God through the mind of Christ you can be rest assured people will see signs and wonder coming from you. For sure you can take to the bank that sin still lives in you and it is beyond me how you can think that you or other christians are still capable of committing sins if sin did not still live in your members just as it did in Paul.

After all Christ does not sin and if the old man is not still alive in you then who or what do you think is causing you or any other Christian to still sin?...... (shaking head in disbelief) ....... for sure that error in your thinking is a significant roadblock that is keeping you from gaining the mind of Christ.

This is my last post on this thread but before I get around to starting a new thread that I believe could be understood by and be beneficial to some here, I have a couple of PM's to go out....... one of them is to you and I ask you to give it your deepest consideration before replying.

BTW because you mentioned casting out devils l will share one more thing with you....... at best I think deliverance ministries are frauds and at the other end they are the goats that despite being considered to be clean God will separate them out....... in 99% of the time all one needs to overcome any particular demon is for them to be taught the truth. Deliverance ministries do far more harm than they do good and will be held accordingly.

Blessings

Doug

Where does this leave the sin of the believer? In the mind, the old mind that is being renewed to the mind of Christ. My Spirit cannot sin. This is who Paul says we are to the Father, The Spirit of Christ in us. God does not look upon the flesh anymore, only the spirit of a man, which if born again is the incorruptable seed of the Father, Jesus Christ, His Spirit is in me and even John says so, ususally it is Paul that says this is the mystery revealed; Christ in you the Hope of Glory. Who Glory do we have? Jesus in His prayer says or glory is as His Glory, given to us of the Father. The flesh still pulls at the mind, the old man mind that was nothing but sin, our soul/mind being renewed by the Holy Spirit to the mind of Christ. My Spirit is perfect.

John 17:20-26 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. (((((And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them;))))) that they may be one, even as we are one: (((((I in them,))))) and thou in me, (((((that they may be made perfect in One;))))) and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and (((((these have known that thou hast sent me.))))) And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: (((((that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.)))))

Is He in you? Can Christ sin? Then my Spirit cannot sssssssssssssin.

How are we presented Perfect to the Father?

Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to His working, which worketh in me mightily.

Perfect in Christ: Phillip, still laboring, still striving, to overcome sin in my flesh, according to His working in me.
Overcoming in my mind By The HOly Spirit in my MIND. The Spirit of Christ in Me also He who makes me perfect to the Father. "But we have the Mind of Christ"

After all Christ does not sin and if the old man is not still alive in you then who or what do you think is causing you or any other Christian to still sin?......

Amen Linn!!! you are 100% correct on that ....... The law of sin is the sin nature in man. It is what is often called "original sin" by many denominations when speaking of the sin nature living in man since the time of our natural birth. Not letting go of that thought and considering some others just might produce some fruit here.

The law of sin in us goes further back in our family tree then just our natural birth and David helps us with what we need to learn

Ps. 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Here we see that before David ever had a physical body sin already existed in his embryo (male sperm and female egg together as one) that his body would be formed from....... why is this so?

Adam and Eve are the spirit and soul of man that together have become "one flesh" are the source of life within every living person ever born on God's green earth and in Adam all men die but in Christ all men are made alive.

Before we move forward it must be understood that because of Adam's sin, the "Adam and Eve" that David and us were all formed from is the source of the "sin in us" aka "original sin" that all of mankind is born with.

Eve came from Adam and is the soul of man that came from the "flesh" of Adam. Thus she operates through the human senses such as sight, taste etc etc and is what caused the forbidden fruit that was "pleasing to the eye" and through the voice of satan was "soothing to the ear" to be consumed.

Before we come to Christ, Adam is the old man in us and in Adam all men are appointed to die and the Holy Spirit of Christ is the "new man" in us for us to live by.

Now, we have received a new spirit - the Holy Spirit, which dwells with our human spirit and brings us into communion with our rightful Father, our Creator, the Father of spirits - a new spiritual principle is at work IN OUR FLESH. That is 'the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus'.

With this statement trouble shows up not because it originated with you but because this is a common teaching error of the church that is being led by man and not by God........ this is a concept that is something you were taught by some man and whether it was in a sermon, book or whatever makes no difference because God has never ever taught anything like that to you.

The "spirit" is male and soul is female and just as the female comes from the male so does the soul come from the spirit. In the original languages the word for soul is a feminine noun and the soul is spoken of in feminine terms such as "darling".

On the other hand the word spirit is a neuter noun not being either male or female but able to have a female come from it just a Eve came from Adam. God who is spirit has a soul (according to scripture) and we see this in Isa. 11:2 where the "Spirit of the Lord" has within it six (the number of man) attributes that all together add up to seven that is the divine number of the fullness of God upon Jesus Christ that this verse is a prophecy of. This verse is the alpha and the omega when it comes to describing the spirit and soul of Jesus

Isa.11: 2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

FYI this verse describes the "us" that were in the beginning of creation in Genesis and the spirit of council is the "one of us" that man became when he took council within himself instead of remaining obedient to God. This continues to be the problem of man and in particular the church where we always have the opinion and lies of some man doing the teaching instead of the church learning how to hear the truth from God...... for that matter one of Satan's most successful tools is the "study bible" made up of the opinions of man about the things of God.

Obviously when Jesus was on earth He was the above verse existing in human flesh yet the same "Spirit of the Lord" was still living on the Throne ruling over heaven and earth. That is because Jesus came from God and Jesus is the soul of God manifested in human flesh the same as how the soul comes from the spirit that is the same as how eve came from adam

Through the baptism of the Holy Spirit Christians are given the "Spirit of the Lord" that has come into the heart where it has displaced the unclean spirit of man the same as light displaces darkness...... The light does not change the darkness but instead it displaces it. Consequently the teaching of His Spirit teaching our spirit or the two becoming one all in all make up the worse of the false doctrines that are currently being taught in the vast majority of the churches.

Linn take this to heart......... we were not given the Holy Spirit to commune with the spirit of man in us but so that the unclean spirit of man that is "Adam in us" can die just as it is appointed to do and instaed of it we now live by the Holy Spirit in our hearts in place of the the spirit of man........ IT IS NEVER THE SPIRITS OF MAN AND GOD COMMUNING WITH EACH OTHER BUT IS THE SON COMMUNING WITH THE FATHER THAT IT CAME FROM. THIS KNOWLEDGE MUST BECOME A PART OF YOU BEFORE ANY PROGRESS CAN BE REALIZED BY YOU OR ANYONE ELSE HERE !!!!!!!!!!

The Holy Spirit living while the spirit of man is dead is the whole gist behind Gal. 2:20 but when you resurrect the spirit of man by putting him in communion with the Holy Spirit you and everyone else that has fallen for teaching that is straight from the mouth of satan, you "frustrate the love of God" and the Holy Spirit that is the Christ seed in Christians stops from maturing into a tree of life.

Because seeds do not produce fruit and only mature trees produce fruit is why James points out to us that those that cannot prove through their works that God is ruling over their hearts, then the faith in them that is the Holy Spirit is NOT ruling over them consequently the best they can produce is the works and opinions of man that is the source of all the problems in the churches of today.

Unfortunately when a person does get the Holy Spirit in their heart they still have the mind of man living quite well in the memories of our flesh. That is the moral of the story so to speak of the unclean spirit going out of the man (the heart of man that is the center of us all and is "the man") and joins up with the unclean "mind of man" still alive within our memories that live in the flesh that is made from the dust (dry places) of the earth.

Hopefully we have made some progress this morning

Blessings

Doug

Doug,

What do you mean that swine are partially clean, unlike the other unclean animals? Do you not remember Peters vision? (Acts 10:9-16)

To Andy....... I answered your exact question as well as about Peter's vision several pages back............ I am not going to take the time to repeat myself and I strongly suggest that you search out the thread for what you still need to learn.

Douglas, my my, where do you get these ideas? Your always saying that the scriptures are of no private interpretation, what your saying is certainly private.

Look at what the real bible says about God communing with His saints.

Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God.

Approved

This post is especially for you but as they say if the shoe fits wear it because you are not alone here

For your edification........The Spirit in heaven that communes with the spirit in you that defines you as one of the children of God is the Holy Spirit in you and not the unclean spirit of man in you that is the same spirit that was in the Pharisees that caused Jesus to say that Satan was their father ........... you must grasp that if you have plans of ever maturing beyond where you are currently at....... and for sure you desperately need to mature in your knowledge concerning the things of God no matter what you might think of yourself

However this "my my" insults of yours is proof that you would do far better by listening more and talking less because your arrogance is starting to exceed your ignorance of the truth

Blessings

Doug

Brother Doug,

Have you ever heard the saying, Take your own advise? I have seen consistantly deep arrogance in your post as well showing very little if any grace to those you are trying to convince or prove your point to. Based solely on your posts I would have to conclude that the Christ of the bible doesn't reside in you as you say He does.

Arrogance definitely wasn't a character of Christ unless there is another Beattitude you know about that we ignorant and decieved people don't know about?

What I have enjoyed about SermonIndex on a whole is the open atmosphere of most of those that frequent the site knowing they don't know it all nor have all the answers humbly replying to questions and being open to other peoples understand and place they currently walk.

We are all growing but if you have arrived my friend then perhaps this isn't a place for you to fellowship since a great deal of us haven't arrived but are learning and growing closer to Christ everyday and so offer grace and gracious replies and answer respecting those we disagree with. I type this in all seriousness and respect to you as a person.

God Bless,
Matthew

The Lord knows if I am arrogant or not, but If I am, I have submitted that to Him, thank you for pointing that out to me, I wish to have all things under His care and instruction.

That is a very gracious reply to a rebuke and I do appreciate it......... In the history of most of the dialogue between us your tone here is noticeably different.

Now my question for you is did you not notice the change in my tone when I replied to AtG when after her last post to me when for the first time in several posts and PM's from her she was not making accusations of how I am wrong about everything or some sort of warning of blatant disregard for scripture or worshiping idols?

Because on my part my response to her for being respectful to me was to be both gentle and encouraging with what she had right and I was equally gentle with what she needed to spend some more time with.

On the other hand on a post here at SI (weeks ago) I used Lysa's name as someone who I thought had a pretty good handle on things on a thread she was not even involved on. However on another thread when after I said that the Apostles possessed something that the church today does not even though that in the end we will all be the same, she came he came at me accusing me of "pure conjunction on my part" and then gave me a warning not to add things to the Bible...... Unfortunately not only was her thinking in error but so was her approach but then she added insult to injury with her warning to me. Next she comes in on this thread with guns blazing with more false accusations at the same time you start to kick your rhetoric up.

I do not expect the impossible of people to start with all the knowledge of God and I am willing to take the time to work with them and help them with what they need to learn........ for sure the stance on knowledge and revelation here is no different than I find at any baptist/pentecostal church or website....... once you have heard what one has to say you have pretty much heard them all. What is different here is that contrary opinions are allowed without the poster being banned or censored for it. Hopefully that attitude will bear fruit for both old and new members here.

I have been preaching the same message since 04 and the reaction of others to something they have yet to learn is 99% of the time volatile once the usual and beginning courtesies are done away with. For example after first welcoming me local clergy told my dying father that they thought his son was an end time false prophet. Even if they did think that for sure they had no business saying that to my father and that is but one small example of what could be pages of the abuses I have been through at the hands of the church should I ever decide to host a "tell and show"

For example when after a secular business deal with local christians, their lies and dishonesty caused me to loose a six figure number that left me financially destitute. However I never did take anyone to court and the only thing I have gotten in return was more lies. Instead of me repaying their evil with what they do deserve my response has been to forgive them and ask God to do the same.

However their response to when the word got out that there were multiple qualified witnesses to my father being raised from the dead they then said that Satan was working through me......... Very nice and very typical of them but if they had a clue of the truth they would know that Satan cannot raise the dead and the verses in Revelation about the beast that they use for evidence is one more reflection of their ignorance and the garbage that they teach.

The list goes on and on about a miracle-less and arrogant church members that always know it all while continually lying, robbing, stealing etc etc........ still I take a lot time to try to help them with what they refuse to acknowledge that they need help with........ but according to "mguilder" he (she?) does not think that Christ is me just because that person does not like my attitude....... to be quite frank I could not care less what any person thinks of me and "mguilders" post is a good example of why I do not. I see Paul was quick to let those who were doing the teaching know that they still needed to be taught and I often find myself in the same position. For sure when knowledge and truth returns to the church God will return to the church and there will be signs following

Meanwhile all false doctrines are from Satan and considering what I have gone through at the hands of the church both local and online where God still never appears at or seldom works through, all things considered I think that my attitude is pretty good

Hopefully AtG will get around to responding to my last post and continue in the same respectful tone that she put forth in her last post.

Are you learning anything from the other posters including myself that has helped you understand the word of God clearly? If yes, please explain which ones that you did not know about but now have a more better understanding?

No ........ I have yet to learn anything here and if and when that happens I will let you know. However IMO there are some good archives of people like Tozer that are nice to read.

I did compliment an OP post the other day but unfortunately it appears that I was the only person who liked what the OP posted.

Blessings

Doug.

"Are believers in Christ a saint and sinner or a saint who is sometimes sinning or...? What's our identity? Because the old men died, new creation is there. So it's not I but sin in me. How do you guys look at this?"

This was the original question that started this post. I have read the multiple pages of discussion with interest and yet I believe there is a simple answer to the original question. I would encourage everyone to read Paul's introductions to his letters to the churches and see how he addresses the believers. See if he addressed them as
"saints" or "sinners" in Christ Jesus. Why not let the wisdom of the apostles speak for itself?

makrothumia

Approved

It is never the person doing the healing or raising the dead etc etc....... After all when a person dies the spirit goes back to God who gave it and only God alone can send the spirit back to the person....... whether He does or not is as the Apostles say all because it is the prayers of a righteous person that bring forth great works from God. I strongly suggest you consider the next verse before you insult God again on who is doing what with your not so subtle comparison of Benny Hinn and others deemed to be false prophets with signs and wonders that are being done by God. I do not mock God as you just have and besides witnessing signs and wonders I have seen lifelong preachers die when they turned against truth. For sure there is no one above God's reproach should they cross the wrong line and I have far to much fear of the Lord to talk as you do.

James 5:16
Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. THE EFFECTUAL FERVENT PRAYER OF A RIGHTEOUS MAN AVAILETH MUCH

It is always God being able to work through a person because the sin of unbelief in the truth is not hindering God' from working in them like it is in the status quo evangelical Christian that you see at worship every sunday throughout Protestant churchland........ however I do have my doubts about any deity doing signs and wonders that consistently is only showing up at large gathering when lots of money is coming in........ however if that is your idea of works that glorify God so be it....... you certainly do not get any nod of agreement from me.

Signs following are to be the norm just as they were with the Apostles and God's prophet's in the OT. If you would shed all the false doctrines that you currently believe in and start to learn the truth in time signs and wonders would be seen coming from you too.

The Apostle were a prophecy of a third day ministry spoken of by both Jesus and the Apostles and now that we are entering into the third day we will see more and more signs and wonder as the increase in the knowledge prophesied of by Daniel comes to be.

I find it most unfortunate that you have come to the conclusions that you have about me because all that you have been clear about is that you do not accept what I say rather than take a stand for whatever it is that you believe in........ at least as far as I have seen at the time of reading your reply to me all you have done is criticize rather than reveal any truth that might help to pull the church out of it current dismal state of neither knowledge nor works. FYI God looks at those who gather around as either part of the solution or part of the problem and those who are not part of the solution are almost ALWAYS part of the problem.

Still I wish you the best.

Blessings

Doug

PS I cannot imagine how that if someone was actually able to do the healing or raising the dead themselves that you speak of by not having to wait for God to do it when He choses to, why they would not be camped out 24/7 at emergency room hospitals across the globe would take someone with a very selfish heart........ Something I do not have and some have criticized me here locally because I have continued to help drug addicts after they have already robbed me once and often they do it again........ but I am still in their corner when they need me giving them a clean bed, healthy food and a good word.

Dear Doug,

Will you please provide atleast two or three witnesses to the signs and wonders God has wrought through you so that the matters you have spoken can be established. I will personally take the time to speak with them and this may help to provide assurance to some who are currently doubting. Many make claims and so few offer substantial evidence. Those who actually do the truth as you say you do come to the light so that it may be manifest that their works are wrought in God.

If you prefer you can send me a private message to protect the privacy of the persons who will verify your testimony by their eye witness accounts. Please include phone numbers so that I can speak to them in person. Please provide your own personal information as well so that I can contact believers where you live and those with whom you are fellowshipping. If you assemble with others in a local gathering I would especially like to speak with some of them.

I am sending this note openly to set an example that we should examine and test first, before we accuse. I will appreciate any assistance you can provide.

Alan Martin
573-783-7760

I believe you can understand the importance of testing all things and not believing every spirit. I only ask that this matter may be clearly established.

makrothumia

Dear Doug,

Will you please provide atleast two or three witnesses to the signs and wonders God has wrought through you so that the matters you have spoken can be established. I will personally take the time to speak with them and this may help to provide assurance to some who are currently doubting. Many make claims and so few offer substantial evidence. Those who actually do the truth as you say you do come to the light so that it may be manifest that their works are wrought in God.

If you prefer you can send me a private message to protect the privacy of the persons who will verify your testimony by their eye witness accounts. Please include phone numbers so that I can speak to them in person. Please provide your own personal information as well so that I can contact believers where you live and those with whom you are fellowshipping. If you assemble with others in a local gathering I would especially like to speak with some of them.

I am sending this note openly to set an example that we should examine and test first, before we accuse. I will appreciate any assistance you can provide.

Alan Martin
573-783-7760

I believe you can understand the importance of testing all things and not believing every spirit. I only ask that this matter may be clearly established.

Alan

Your response is normal and I am counting on it being a common one if my book ever sells more than just a few "by chance" copies...... for sure satan will want to stop the truth from getting out and the best way to top the truth is to cast doubt on the one who is telling it.

So whether you lead that charge or someone else does makes no difference because I am quite confident that if you do not someone else will. Consequently the same as I respect your doubts hopefully you will respect my needs for more doubters than just you or any other nay-sayers here to be silenced if not done away with all together without expecting witnesses to be unduly discomforted ....... therefore I am not going to waste the privacy of witnesses until I feel that it is the best time to do so........... for sure I have enough experience with the law to understand liability and if I was found to be a liar I would expect my own publisher to be leading the charge against me

However take this to heart and firmly plant it in your memory banks. I do not have a signs and wonders ministry but a ministry of teaching the truth that has been witnessed by signs and wonders that have been seen by others. Anyone else who preaches the truth will also have some sort of miracles that give witness to the presence of the truth at work. I am not surprised that you are not used to hearing about miracles being wrought by God...... for sure the church that exist today has nothing in common with the church of the Apostles other than a name

I was surprised when I got the first edited version back late yesterday because originally I was not expecting it before the middle of February at the absolute earliest. Although I had heard that for some reason it had been moved into the production process earlier than when I was told it would be started on, it is nice to have the proof in hand

Bottom line is your chance to try to prove me to be a liar is not far off

Blessings

Doug

"Your response is normal and I am counting on it being a common one if my book ever sells more than just a few "by chance" copies...... for sure satan will want to stop the truth from getting out and the best way to top the truth is to cast doubt on the one who is telling it."

What Alan is asking for isn't unresonable but is quite scriptural in nature. I find it interesting that when one is testing the spirits of your post you accuse them of something far off from their intentions. Alan clearly wishes to clear up any doubt that others may have. If you have fear of being disproven or proven a liar then it would make sense that you don't wish to bring out witnesses. If you have no reason to fear this then witnesses should be no problem and one would think the individual would be eager to show his witnesses to prove himself all the more.

Dear Doug,

On reading your latest post, I'm even less clear of the claim you make for your relationship with the Jesus Christ of the Bible, His teachings, and, His example.

Here's what I mean:

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: 13 which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. 16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given by Moses, [but] grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

In regard to how you react to opposition, and your implied satisfaction at the deaths of those you claim opposed you - even attributing them to God - I am shocked. The Sermon on the Mount is the most fundamental of Jesus Christ's teachings, and near the beginning, He puts:

Matthew 5:10 Blessed [are] they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you FALSELY, for my sake. 12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great [is] your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

Later, the apostles experience this joy, in Acts 5:41 And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name.

Now, your reaction to makrothumia's last post bears no resemblance to the historical facts of Jesus Christ's miracles, all of which were conducted with witnesses - usually many. Even when Peter raised Tabitha in Acts 9, he returned her alive to a group of people who knew she had died, who had expressly called upon him to pray for her. Yet your attribution to Alan is both baseless amd embarrassing:

your chance to try to prove me to be a liar

It's one thing being bound by copyright; it's another to assume everyone is against you.

Dear AtG

In your last post I saw some ecouragement that I complimented upon that was hopefully going to lead into more understanding of the truth on your behalf...... unfortunately that is not the case

In regard to how you react to opposition, and your implied satisfaction at the deaths of those you claim opposed you - even attributing them to God - I am shocked.

This statement of your is total baloney and that is saying it kindly

I never said that anybody died for opposing me and in the name of Jesus I rebuke you for this false accusation........ what I did say and did so so clearly that to say otherwise proves that your intention is not to speak the the truth but to deceive others. He died because God removed His covering from him for peaking against the truth and not for speaking against me

For that matter the specific person that I was speaking of (he is not alone) had been a mentor of mine whom I spent months with proving line upon line and precept upon precept a doctrine of God that had not yet been revealed to him......... but FYI knowledge wise he was light years beyond you or anyone else here who has contributed to this thread........ so far beyond that there is no one here who deserves to have their name mentioned in the same paragraph that his name is even referred to.

When I looked at your last accusation of me taking delight in a persons death when instead I wept and to the best of my ability I have financially assisted the widow of my former mentor...... Besides me spending months trying to get him to see the truth that God had revealed to me, he was well warned that if he did not change his plans he would die because God had already given me the word how and where he would die (on a mission in Africa and at the hands of a witch doctor) that came true and was posted online by an associate of his. His widow is very well aware that I was right about everything and has stated so......... now that he finally does know the truth but is no longer with us I have often prayed that he be forgiven as I have forgiven him

However this accusation of me taking delight is really ugly and only a twisted mind could come up with such an accusation

You certainly do need to deal with it!!!!!!!!

Doug

I will lock this thread, you have discussed for 100+ posts and not come to an "end" and i am sure we could post 100+ post more and we would be in the same place. And from what i have read the majority are not posted with an emphasis that is "up building" for the readers.

It seem it is becoming more "you said" and "i said" and it continues, and misunderstandings etc.

What Alan is asking for isn't unresonable but is quite scriptural in nature. I find it interesting that when one is testing the spirits of your post you accuse them of something far off from their intentions. Alan clearly wishes to clear up any doubt that others may have. If you have fear of being disproven or proven a liar then it would make sense that you don't wish to bring out witnesses. If you have no reason to fear this then witnesses should be no problem and one would think the individual would be eager to show his witnesses to prove himself all the more.

mguldner

Tell me something

Do you have any knowledge at all .of how professional businesses go about their work?

On the copyright page it clearly states that the publisher handles all inquires concerning the author........ you, your friend here or anyone else will just have to get in line and do things in the order that they are done

Do you remember a book a few year back that had title something like a "million little pieces" where the author made a claims that turned out to false? Oprah had picked him and his book for her recommended read list consequently the book became a best seller.

However when doubts and proof of lies came up it was his publisher that stripped of his awards and fame...... One thing publishers do not tolerate is authors that are liars because if they did they would loose all of their credibility and become like all the D and X rated publications you find in checkout lanes when you leave a grocery store

Now try being realistic for a change.........Why would you think for a second with all the lies and false accusations that have been made against me here that I would go against protocol and upset my publisher just to please the likes of some of the members here?

Alan has the right to ask what he does however he would accomplish far more by rooting out the sin that already is rank within some of the members here because as Paul said a little leaven will leaven the whole lump....... For sure the sin that exists within this site is contributing to why a simple scriptural doctrine like the Law of Sin living within christians is being not being accepted.

Starting with getting rid of the sin here would be the first step to seeing signs and wonders being done by the members here.

Doug