Day of Worship

Why come most protestants don't keep the 7th day sabbath? It is part of the 10 commandments and it is clear that it is the 7th day not the 1st day. Is there any biblical proof that the day of worship was changed to the 1st day. Also, it couldn't have been for the Jews only cause in Genesis 2:3 it states that "God blessed the 7th day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done". God's commandments is His Character and it will remain forever! If we are in Christ we will keep his commandments automatically. I just found it odd that most people see no problem with breaking this commandment. Please let me know what you think my dear friends.

Hi kwamenat...

Welcome to the forums.

Many Christians tend to view that the Sabbath is part of the Law of Moses...which we are clearly not bound to under the New Covenant.

In Acts 15, the Church was faced with questions about which elements of the Law of Moses that Gentile believers would need to fulfill. Some Jewish believers were claiming that Gentile believers would need to be circumcised. However, the Apostles met in Jerusalem and made it very clear that the New Covenant would not make it "difficult" for believers to turn to God by forcing specific requirements in regard to the law (Acts 15:19).

Further, the New Testament talks about just how specific the idea of a "day of rest" came to be. The original Sabbath was meant to be REMEMBERED for God's finished work and kept "holy," in which HE rested (ceased) from the act of Creation. As believers, we have entered into that rest...full time. We are supposed to be holy and remember God's perfect work 24/7 (and not just one day a week). According to Hebrews 4:7, that "rest" is called "today." It isn't called "Saturday" or "Sunday." In fact, the early believers met DAILY in their homes (and elsewhere). Many believers feel that we are not confined to a particular day or some requirement from the Law of Moses (unless, of course, we feel inclined to fulfill the rest of the Law as well).

Anyway, I know that this might not answer your question. However, I hope that you understand that many believers feel that we have been "freed" from the law of "sin and death" and that we can serve the Lord with a clear conscience. We now are bound to the Law of Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1-2).

The Lord bless you!

Thanks for the feedback. The ceremonial law or mosaic law as a system is done away with in a sense but not 10 commandments. We will all agree that we should not kill, murder, steal, worship other things, etc but when it comes to sabbath day worship we throw that out and say it is part of the laws of moses. The 10 commandments is God's character and it will remain forever. It was written with His own fingers. It can be kept if we allow Christ to live in us. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law (Mat 5:18). I will have to look into Hebrews 4:7 because i read it several times but its somewhat difficult to comprehend but i am sure that the 10 commandments are not done away with. It cannot!

Hi kwamenat...

Actually, the ENTIRE Law of Moses has been fulfilled.

We are no longer bound by that law...but have become recipients of the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus -- which sets us FREE from the law of sin and death. The 10 Commandments were the anchor of the previous law. We are now anchored to two commands: 1. Love the Lord our God with all of our hearts, soul, mind and strength; and, 2. Love our neighbors as our selves.

Jesus expounded upon this during his Sermon on the Mount. He explained how the Law had been fulfilled. In Matthew 5, Jesus mentioned how the Law states that we should not commit adultery. However, Jesus lay the ax at the root -- and said that we should not lust. Jesus mentioned that the Law says that we should not murder...but that HE says that we should not be angry without cause. In other words, Christ's law supersedes the Law of the Old Covenant.

Still, look at the original command for the Sabbath:

"Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it" (Exodus 20:8-11).

Consider the verse, what would be the fulfillment of the Law, as eluded to by Christ Jesus in Matthew chapter 5? We are to remember the original sabbath day -- because God had finished His work. Now, what about the Old Covenant command to not "work" on the Sabbath day? Well, David, the apostles and even Jesus was "guilty" of breaking the letter -- but not the essence -- of the Law. The principle was kept -- to remember and rest in the completed work of God.

Still, I don't think that there is ANY reference in the New Testament that makes one believe that we are bound to any specific practices of the Law of Moses. If we endeavor to fulfill one of those requirements...then we might as well strive to finish all of them.

This just came to me. I am simple in my relationship with the Lord. The law says to have a day of rest. A certain day. But we are no longer under the law but grace. So, if I work on a Sunday I choose another day of rest.

I rest from interceding of asking etc. and have a day of thanking the Lord for all His goodness and mercy and all the prayers He has heard and is working on. I have gone to nursing homes and ministered on that day as well. I am free.

But it is a heart attitude with me and a most beautiful day of all the week. A day of pure rest of praise, thanksgiving, worship. A day free of worry, anxiety and the things of this world. I have even sat with a family member and watched a football game. Grace! But my heart was flowing with a love relationship unhindered by the cares of this world resting in our love. All glory and praise to You!

Please let me know what you think my dear friends.

here is a link to an excellent article that covers your questions in detail...

http://www.exadventist.com/Home/Sabbath/tabid/53/Default.aspx

In Christ,

Ron

here is a link to an excellent article that covers your questions in detail... http://www.exadventist.com/Home/Sabbath/tabid/53/Default.aspx

From that article:

"For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials; that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell." (Acts 15:28-29).

NOTICE that the Holy Spirit told them NOT to lay upon the Gentiles any greater burden than THOSE ESSENTIALS. OBVIOUSLY THE HOLY SPIRIT DID NOT THINK SABBATH KEEPING WAS AN ESSENTIAL THING ANYMORE!

----------------------

I thought that was excellent!

God bless,
Lisa

So are you implying that since murdering, stealing, covetousness, etc are not mentioned then we can go ahead and do it anyways. We cannot use 1 scripture to jump to such a conclusion.

I am surprise that many christians are bold to say that the 10 commandments are done away with. These were not ceremonial laws, these were commands written with God's own hands for mankind. It is God's constitution. The Sabbath was made for man (Mark 2:27). God in His infinite wisdom created a day for us to put all things aside including work so that we can spend a day reflecting with Him. This is not even legalistic. It is a privilege to put all things aside and spend a day with our God.

If we claim that the sabbath is done with then Matthew 24:20 will not even make sense.."But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day". This prophesy was about the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D 70. Even if you don't believe that it was something that will happen in the future. If the Sabbath command was to have been nullified by His death, Jesus Statement makes no sense at all.

It is no wonder why we find Paul consistently using the Sabbath for teaching both Jews and Gentiles (Acts 17:2; 18:4). Had the Christians been observing Sunday, they could easily have met the next day after their first Sabbath meeting.

"Here is the patience of the saints, here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus." Rev.14:12

"Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city." Rev. 22:14

We keep the commandments of God simply because We love God and we delight to do his will. We are not following rules (that will be legalistic) but Christ abides in us so we automatically keep the law of God).

We dare not say the law of God written with his own fingers is done with! IT WILL REMAIN FOREVER AND FOREVER. IT IS THE CHARACTER OF GOD.

Please consider this concerning this issue.

The Sabbath was a sign of the covenant between God and the sons of Israel. Any Israelite who violated the Sabbath was subject to capital punishment. It was not even considered an offense for a gentile.

The Sabbath was never a commandment to a single Gentile nation around Israel. They were not commanded to keep it then and there is no where in Scripture where they have ever been commanded to keep it.

The only exception to this is the "prosylite" who underwent circumcision to join the people of Israel. Such a person was required to keep the entire Law. This is what Paul is warning the Gentile Galatians about. Circumcision is the doorway to placing yourself under the entire Law and Paul wrote "DO NOT DO THIS!"

Those who try to place the keeping of the Sabbath upon a people whom Yahweh never gave the instructions to are contradicting the very law they are seeking to impose on others. Yahweh Himself did not do what they are seeking to do, therefore they are not speaking for Him now either.

makrothumia

Hi kwamenat...

So are you implying that since murdering, stealing, covetousness, etc are not mentioned then we can go ahead and do it anyways. We cannot use 1 scripture to jump to such a conclusion.

I am surprise that many christians are bold to say that the 10 commandments are done away with.

No one implied this at all.

In fact, I previously mentioned that Jesus superseded the commands "Thou shalt not kill" by telling us that the principle forbids anger without cause. "Thou shalt not commit adultery?" Jesus superseded it by telling us that God forbids lust. If you take care of the anger without cause and the lust...you would fulfill the Law without being restricted by the letter thereof.

As for Paul teaching on the Sabbath, this was because his target audience met together on that day. No where under the New Covenant do we find people "confined" to a Sabbath. Believers met DAILY in their homes. Paul preached DAILY. Hebrews 4 tells us that TODAY is the new Sabbath rest for God's people -- and not some particular calendar day (Saturn Day) that has changed through history.

Besides, I have a question for you:

What do YOU think that we are supposed to do on a "Sabbath" day? Specifically?

As believers, we already remember the finished work of God on that day (and EVERY day). We also are supposed to be holy on that day (and EVERY day). Many Westerners avoid going to weekly work -- not just on Saturday, but on Saturday and Sunday (which goes against the "letter of the law" that we should work SIX days a week and rest on only one [Exodus 20:9-10]). Very few people actually work every day of the week.

You asked the question, "Why come most protestants don't keep the 7th day sabbath?" The answer is that most believers do not feel that we are confined to the Law. We feel that we have been liberated from the specific commands by fulfilling the underlying purposes for which God created the Law.

Consider Romans chapter 7:

1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

6 BUT NOW WE ARE DELIVERED FROM THE LAW, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Romans 7:1-6

Romans chapters 7 and 8 speak extensively about the Law and how we have been set "free" from it (Romans 8:1-2). As I mentioned previously, the Apostles (in Acts 15) did NOT implore the new Gentile believers to follow the Ten Commandments. Why? Because the Spirit-guiding principles of the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus would cause us to fulfill those things. We don't have to be told that we should not commit adultery -- because we are not supposed to lust. We don't have to be told not to murder -- because we are not supposed to harbor anger or bitterness. IF we consider others before ourselves, we will not steal or covet those things that belong to others.

The Sabbath day, according to Jesus, was made FOR man (Mark 2:27). Why? It was a day that would be set aside by which man was to remember the finished work of God. God had completed His work. It was finished. However, our finished work took place at the cross. Jesus died and declared, "IT IS FINISHED!" (John 19:30). We now have a "rest" from God's completed, finished work. Hebrews 4 declares that rest to be "today." This isn't confined to a Saturday or Sunday. This is TODAY.

I am not trying to convince you of anything (and, I suppose, the same is true with you). However, I hope that this helps you understand where many of us are coming from in lieu of your original question.

What do YOU think that we are supposed to do on a "Sabbath" day? Specifically?

To answer your question, I think we should do exactly what the 4th commandments says. On the sabbath day we should not work and spend the full day reflecting on the word of God and praying. This can be done with a church or not but we know the significance of fellowshiping with beievers. Nothing should distract us except the things that draws us close to God. It makes so much sense cause God knew that we will be caught up in a system that keeps man so busy that they will gradually pull away from God. I am not saying that we do not need to spend time with God everyday but you understand how much impact one will have if they spend a whole day in devotion to his Maker.

Also, I understand the points some of you made about Paul's assertion about the law been done away with. The same Paul also said, "What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet." (Romans 7:7)

The law of God shows us the condition that we are in and how bad we need Jesus to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. So what exactly do we mean when we say the law is done away in light of Romans 7:7.

Thanks for all those who are replying. You comments shows that you are all diligent student of the Word. I am learning a lot even though we seem to disagree.

Dear brother (in Christ) kwamenat

Thank you for this excellent question: "So what exactly do we mean when we say the law is done away in light of Romans 7:7"

I can not speak for others, but I will share my own heart.
I believe the law has been done away with as the means of producing the righteousness of God in us. Formerly, the Law said "the man who does these things will live BY them...that will be his righteousness."
Yet, we have seen personally, and Paul saw supernaturally that the Law could not impart life because it was powerless to overcome the sinful nature. "If a law had been given that could impart life, righteousness would have come by the law." The Law was never meant to be the means by which the righteousness of God is fulfilled in us. Only the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ enables all the righteousness of the Law to be fully met in us.

Men observed the Sabbath for hundreds of years without it producing the righteousness of God in them. The Law was not even given to produce righteousness, it was actually added that tresspass might increase. We had an inner corruption none of us would ever have fully recognized apart from the law revealing sin. That is why Paul said "through the Law is the knowledge of SIN." Notice he did not say "sins" but SIN - meaning the inner law of corruption that had enslaved all of us. We would not have even known this corruption had made us slaves unless the Law had been added. Through the process of our agreeing that the Law is holy, righteous and good but not having the ability to do what we agreed with, we come to recognize INDWELLING SIN. This is the purpose of the Law, to expose INDWELLING SIN and help us see "the wretched man" we are. This leads us to cry out who will save us from this wretched state and thus the Law leads us to Jesus Christ who is the actual full righteousness of God.

It is the knowledge of Christ that leads us to receive the Spirit of Adoption where the very life of Christ through the Spirit restores our relationship as sons of God through faith. From this new relationship as sons of God through faith, the rightouesness that was in the Law is fully realized in those who are walking by the Spirit.

To summarize, the Law was done away with as "the means" of God's righteousness being fulfilled in us, although it still has a place as "the mirror" of righteousness. Rigtheousness is now produced in us by the inner working of God, the Holy Spirit abiding in us, through whom we become partakers of His divine nature. Thus the very life of Christ through the Holy Spirit is producing what the Law was never intended or able to produce. The Law is holy, righteous, and good, but it was never the means by which the actual power of doing righteousness is imparted to us.

Only living by the Spirit will produce the actual righteousness of God, not the observing of a single day or abstaining from certain foods, or observing months, weeks, and years. Those observances which devout Jews still diligently seek to keep, have never produced God's righteousness in them. NOW, a righteousness APART from the Law has been revealed - the righteousness of faith. This rigtheousness is through faith not in a letter, or commandment but in the Son in whom all the fullness dwelt bodily and through Him only are we made complete.

makrothumia

I forgot to add, that I do not see "observing a day" as opposed to faith. If a man observes a day above a day by faith then that man is approved of God. I loved your description of the benefit you receive from observing a day and although I do not limit such an observance to the Sabbath, I have benefitted much from doing those very things you so wonderfully described.

My brother,

I agree with everything you mentioned in your previous post. I am afraid though that it is this kind of exposition of righteousness by faith that makes people feel like they can do anything they want because they commandments of God can't be kept anyways. Yes, I believe in righteousness by faith but faith without works is dead (James 2:17). Since Christ lives in us we will produce His righteousness.

God's law is not the problem. We are! God's law is perfect and when obeyed brings us happiness. We can obey the law through the Spirit like you said. We can produce the righteousness of God if the Spirit lives in us. Without Holiness no one will see God (Heb 12:14).

The thing that puzzles me about this whole law thing is that most people will have agreed with me if i talked about thou shalt not steal, murder, cover, etc. People have no problem with 9 of the commandments except the 4th commandment. They understand that by the Spirit will overcome stealing, adultery, etc but the Sabbath is not suppose to be there in a sense because not fully understanding the scripture they think is is referring to the sabbaths in the ceremonial law. I will address this more towards the end of this post

Only living by the Spirit will produce the actual righteousness of God, not the observing of a single day or abstaining from certain foods, or observing months, weeks, and years. Those observances which devout Jews still diligently seek to keep, have never produced God's righteousness in them. NOW, a righteousness APART from the Law has been revealed - the righteousness of faith. This rigtheousness is through faith not in a letter, or commandment but in the Son in whom all the fullness dwelt bodily and through Him only are we made complete.

I believe in your statement above you were stating Colossians 2:16 and i completely agree with you because this was about ceremonial laws and not the 10 commandments. For example compare Colossians 2:16 with Ezekiel 45:17. All of these things were pointing to ceremonial laws. They were things that were part of the sanctuary system even though many people do not realize that. The ceremonial laws are nailed to the cross because they were a shadow of things to come- Christ. It is the ceremonial laws that are done away with and not the 10 commandments written with God own fingers. The ceremonial laws were written by moses and that was the handwriting of requirements against us, which was contrary to us (Col 2:14)

We must distinguish the ceremonial law written by moses and the 10 commandments written with God's fingers. The Sabbath in the 4th commandment is not the same as the sabbaths in the ceremonial laws. This 7th day sabbath goes back to creation in Genesis 2:3 when God blessed the Sabbath day and sanctified it.

Hope you see where I am coming from my good brother. Thanks for keeping me in the Word.

Romans 14:1-12

1 Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. 2 For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables. 3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him. 4 Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.
5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord;[a] and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks. 7 For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. 8 For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. 9 For to this end Christ died and rose[b] and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living. 10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.[c] 11 For it is written:

“ As I live, says the LORD,
Every knee shall bow to Me,
And every tongue shall confess to God.”[d]

12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God. 13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother’s way.

Mt 5:17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

As with some of the other commandments, Jesus took them to a new level. Mt 5:21,22,27,28

In my understanding, the Sabbath IS NOT done away with but instead fulfilled.

As God gave the people a day of rest in the OT He also gives us rest in the NT. But instead of just one day, it is eternal rest from our own works/ways. Thus fulfilling the law of the Sabbath, which glorifies His Son rather than the prophets. That which could not be accomplished by the law is now completed in Him. See Heb 4:4,8,9 The law was a teacher to bring us unto Christ.

Here's a message that may explain further.

The Sabbath-Rest For Christians - Zac Poonen
http://www.cfcindia.com/web/mainpages/video_message.php?date=09_05&issue=198&title=The+Sabbath-Rest+For+Christians

Thanks for the comment. I agree with the text. There is no need to argue over pity things like whether we can eat foods offered to idols like what Paul was talking about here. As long as you know the idols have no power over it you can eat it and you will be fine. If it is an offense to you then don't eat it. It's not worth the dispute. Same with holiday observance(i.e. Christmas). This is what Paul was addressing.

Just to let you know, this has nothing to do with the Sabbath. it is talking about the Christians and some aspects of Paganism.

Paul will not dare say that we can live however we want as Christians and act like all is good! Drink what you want, eat what you want, do whatever you want and feel good about it, don't let no one judge you! No that is not what Paul is saying.

When it comes to things that are not necessary in itself a sin Paul caution us not to dispute but we are to caution each other if we are living in sin so that the Holy Spirit can help us to live as true Christians.

STAR OF GOD,

Thank you for your comment. Hebrews 4 may not be as simple as we think. That is a whole Bible Study in itself.

The ceremonial Sabbaths (Leviticus 23:24-36) points to Christ but the 7th day Sabbath points BACK to Creation!

Those who go to heaven will keep the Sabbath in heaven: Isaiah 66:22-23 “For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD ... from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.” Far from being nailed to the cross, the weekly seventh-day Sabbath will continue to be observed after God recreates the earth.

Brother, I wasn't aware what your were asking until after posting and going back over and rereading. However, here is another thread that also speaks of the Sabbath, they specifically address these verses in Isaiah 66.

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=21671&forum=36&start=40&viewmode=flat&order=0

I also found it interesting, glad you brought these verses up. Thanks.

Ya, this issue is worth contemplating over. Most Christians will not argue with you if you talk about the other 9 commandments (murdering, stealing, lying, having no other gods before me,etc) but not the 4th commandment (sabbath) seems to be a problem. We only think 9 out of the 10 is necessary. I believe the 4th commandment is there for a reason. I wish everyone will take time to read the 10 commandments and a whole different light. This is God's constution for humanity not just the Israelites. I believe it is one of the greatest truth after the cross that we have failed to see. The 7th day Sabbath shall be kept forever (Isaiah 66:22-23)

I hope that you can understand where we are coming from too. Many believers do not feel bound to the Law -- and the Ten Commandments are a part of the Law of the Old Covenant.

I don't follow the Ten Commandments -- because I already fulfill them by following the new Law -- the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus. I don't have to follow "thou shalt not commit adultery" because the Law of Christ teaches me to not lust. I don't have to follow "thou shalt not kill" because the Law of Christ teaches me to not be angry without cause. If we fulfill the Law of Christ, we have fulfilled all of the law and the prophets.

The same is true of the rest of those commands -- including the guiding principle of the original Sabbath. We remember, worship and serve the Lord EVERYDAY. All of our work is for His benefit...for His glory.

Over the years, we have had several people who push the Sabbath as a binding requirement for believers. You yourself asked the question...which provoked the answers from believers. Most believers do not feel that we are bound to strict observational requirements of the Sabbath because Christ finished the work and provided a new law. By fulfilling that new covenant law, we fulfill the previous.

So,..I guess taking my kids to their hockey game is out of the question??!! I dont make up the schedualing.
Sometimes I feel real guilty about though and other times I think,..well..I've read some scriptures and prayed silently to myself and talked to the kids about the lord a bit (any topic that comes about) before we have to head out to a game.
I think if our hearts and minds are on the Lord that day,...no matter what we do...we should be ok,...shouldn't we??
We do run busy lives these days....I try not to get caught up in alot of stuff that goes on around and ktry to keep our family life simple and TOGETHER.

I will say read more in the Word and see what God's wants you to do on the Lord's day. They Holy spirit will lead you if you are sincerely searching. God bless

Below is the commentary i got from Matthew Henry on Mark 2:27- Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath".

Matthew Henry Commentary:
"The sabbath is a sacred and Divine institution; a privilege and benefit, not a task and drudgery. God never designed it to be a burden to us, therefore we must not make it so to ourselves. The sabbath was instituted for the good of mankind, as living in society, having many wants and troubles, preparing for a state of happiness or misery. Man was not made for the sabbath, as if his keeping it could be of service to God, nor was he commanded to keep it outward observances to his real hurt. Every observance respecting it, is to be interpreted by the rule of mercy."

As a matter fact, I am shocked about the other commentaries from different religious backgrounds on this issue (i simply google the bible text and i got all these commentaries in the link below.

http://bible.cc/mark/2-27.htm

Honestly, is the Sabbath really a burden for man? What burden is there in spending solid time with God on the day he sanctified. Who can honestly say they spend all day with God everyday..unless you don't work! At times we long to be with God in a deeper way but the cares of this world does not allow us but God knowing this set a day aside. It is for our own enjoyment in the Lord. It makes so much sense if we look at the benefits instead of seeing it as a burden!

Hi kwamenat...

Honestly, is the Sabbath really a burden for man? What burden is there in spending solid time with God on the day he sanctified. Who can honestly say they spend all day with God everyday..unless you don't work! At times we long to be with God in a deeper way but the cares of this world does not allow us but God knowing this set a day aside. It is for our own enjoyment in the Lord. It makes so much sense if we look at the benefits instead of seeing it as a burden!

It is a burden only if you are bound to some sort of strict adherence to it. Since most believers feel that the Law has been (and is) fulfilled and superseded by the New Covenant Law of Christ, then it is NOT a burden. We can fulfill the principle of the Sabbath (by remembering the completed work of God...and being holy) by the grace of God.

In the New Testament, we are told to "pray always" (I Thessalonians 5:17). We are supposed to continuously walk in the holiness of God. Personally, I am always remembering the Lord! Whether I am at work...at home...at Church...or just watching a sunset, I consider the things of God!

Interestingly, the "Sabbath" is one of those things that predates the Law of Moses. It existed from the seventh day of Creation. There were no "binding prerequisites" until the Law of Moses. On the 7th day, God simply rested and blessed the day. Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, etc... -- none of them were "bound" to any specific Sabbath requirements (at least, nothing that is specifically recorded in Scripture). It seems that these patriarchs simply remembered that the Sabbath was blessed because it was the day when God finished His work.

Still...the New Testament is clear that we are no longer bound to the Law of the Old Covenant. We have a new law -- of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus -- that actually sets us from from, supersedes and fulfills the old.

Now, if you want to see a day as "special" -- then do so with a clear conscience. However, Romans 14:4-9 is clear that we should not judge someone for such matters. Unfortunately, I have encountered people who told me that I couldn't possibly be "saved" if I didn't fulfill some Old Testament requirements regarding specific conduct for the Sabbath.

Of course, I realize that you haven't done this here. Yet there are Seventh Day Adventists who are quite vocal with this belief -- and many more! I have been told that the small independent Church with which I fellowshipped at the time was a "Satanic harlot" and that even the sincere prayers offered from it were an abomination from God. It seemed like every discussion eventually meandered into an attempt to convince me of the "gross error" in my beliefs.

It is striking to me how Romans 14:4-9 is so different in tone to the "must believe" rhetoric explained to me by the faithful Seventh Day Adventists that I knew...and even the official denominational website. This is why I pointed out the general lack of "must believes" at the beginning of the early Church in Acts 15 (regarding specific questions about Old Testament requirements).

Thus, I am trying to explain that most believers (like those here at SermonIndex) do not see the Sabbath as an issue at all. It was a part of the Old Covenant that was fulfilled and finished at the Cross. We now have a more lasting covenant that isn't dependent upon some particular set of requirements from the Old Covenant.

We fulfill the entire law and the prophets by submitting ourselves daily to Christ Jesus! If we love the Lord our God with all of our heart, mind, soul and strength...and love our neighbors as ourselves...we fulfill the principles upon which the Law was based. This is why Christ said, "You have heard it said..." about adultery, murder, etc... Jesus, rather, lay the ax to the root of the issue by telling us that if we took care of lust and anger, we don't have to worry about fulfilling a command against adultery and murder.

I hope that this makes better sense regarding your initial question as to WHY we don't sincerely and prayerfully feel any specific requirements for adherence to the Law (including the Sabbath). Like Jesus said after being accused of breaking Sabbath requirements, the "Sabbath was made for man...and not man for the Sabbath" (Mark 2:27).

I have come across very few Christians that keep the 7th day sabbath. The LORD showed me that I am to keep it, and I do, unless He directs me to do otherwise. For the most part I am greatly relieved when it rolls around and have found it to be a most blessed time with the LORD. Sometimes the enemy tricks me into breaking my sabbath - if you give him a minute, he will consume the whole day. One of the ways that I know that the sabbath is important to the LORD is the amount of effort that the enemy puts forth in trying to get me to do things that I have no desire to do after the sabbath has passed.

I too have been led of the Spirit to remember the Sabbath on Saturdays, and one of the things I too have noticed that keeping the Sabbath outside of Israel these days is not easy to do. Merely trying to recall the day is fought so hard by those around you,

Keeping your thoughts entirely on the Lord for even the daylight hours of Saturday is very hard to do. (Not being in Israel, I have great difficulty in recalling a sunset on Friday as the end of the day.) particularly if you are alone a good deal, and spend the other six days in conversation with YHVH as well. It's not as if I had work to keep me too busy to think of God except at meals.

In the beginning of merely trying to observe the day, my flesh was being encouraged by the Adversary to the point that I would not recall Saturday was the Sabbath until sunset on Saturday! Now, I begin to look for it by Thursday, wanting to be in that day, even though I spend most of my time with God anyway.

I do not see it as a commandment, but sort of a weekly remembrance of creation being finished, and finished so well that God was satisfied with it. The awareness of seperateness, or holiness...the day being set apart as we are supposed to be set apart for God's use.

Not being Jewish I merely recall the day...stay in awareness of the specialness of the day, and on the High Holy Days try to catch a Messianic synagogue service by internet. However, even the most Orthodox of Jews spend most of the day fellowshipping with others in between prayers, and at meals. The sabbath was made for man to use for something other than working.

The closer we get to the Lord returning, the more I am aware that God also used the Sabbath as a mark of covenant keeping, and I wonder how harsh the pressure to conform to the outer world will be in future.

Ya, the reason most people don't want to hear about the Sabbath is that Sabbath keeping folks make's it look like a burden. They make it seem like they have to do it for Salvation. We are not saved by works or following the 10 commandments in itself. Since we love Christ and He lives in us we delight to His will. We delight to follow His commandments. We are not bound or in chains to do anything. We simply obey because we love Jesus for what He did on the cross for us.

This was the problem with the pharisees. They simply thought by keeping the law they were fine with God even though their hearts were far away from God. That is why Christ went an extra step to say even if you lust after a woman you have committed adultery. It is an issue of the heart itself and not the law of God.

The Law of God is Holy, just and good. The Law (10 commandments) is still binding upon Christians today. We must keep God's Commandments. The Law is written in our hearts under the New Covenant(Hebrews 8:10). Grace does not nullify the Law of Chist. Grace through faith establishes the Law(Romans 3:31).

Consider Jesus commandments that He gave in Matthew 28:37-40- "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself. 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

"ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS HANG ON THESE TWO COMMANDMENTS"

The 1st commandment Jesus mentioned- Love the Lord your God with all the heart summarizes the first 4 commandments and the second commandment, Love your neighbor summarizes the 6 commandments. Compare the 10 commandments with this statement, it makes perfect sense.

Unless we can prove that when Paul said the law is done with He was talking about the 10 commandments we have no grounds for saying the 7th day Sabbath is done away with. Paul was clearly talking about CEREMONIAL LAWS. Now the sabbaths associated with the ceremonial laws are done away with.

Now notice that in Leviticus 23:37 it says, “These are the feasts of the LORD” and then it goes on to say in verse 38 that these feasts, or Sabbaths, are “Beside the Sabbaths of the LORD.” Thus these ceremonial Sabbaths are in addition to the weekly Sabbath of the Ten Commandments. So we see that what was nailed to the cross was the ceremonial law of offering, sacrifices and yearly feasts, or Sabbaths. While the ten commandment law with it’s weekly Sabbath is still in effect.

The verses Miccah quoted from Romans are critical. They specifically show all days to be equal. It is then the issue of our heart.

When the Romans verses are coupled with Paul's further teaching about not causing a weaker brother to stumble the following seems to be a good guideline.. for me at least.

I will personally celebrate all days equally as a gift from God. However, I will also set aside a day week to specifically spend extra focus on Him and His working in my life.

However, if I am in a community where using Sunday is a specific stumbling block TO THE BROTHER I AM AROUND then I will be fine with Saturday...or whatever day they set aside ...that will not offend their conscience.

IF HOWEVER I am not around that/those person(s) then I am not bound in my actions by their weak conscience. I will act on my freedom that all days are God's alone and use them in celebration of Him.

It really does just boil down to loving God all the time... and then loving my brother enough to defer to their weaker conscience and understanding of lessened righteousness when around them. That is exactly what Paul was saying about the eating of meat offered to idols. If it offends a brother I will abstain...however, since it is all owned by God I am free to eat the meat when alone as I am not bound by the other brothers weaker conscience.

I don't have to defend worship on any day...I worship every day. But I will do what is helpful to a weaker brother until they reach a stage of maturity and understanding of a real day of rest. Check it out in Hebrews.

Just loving God all the time and sometimes putting myself out just a little for the love of my brother. No need to defend my position or attack theirs... just walk in love.

Blessings!

Solomon,

I really enjoy reading your comment but I see a serious issue with what you make of Paul statements about making sure to offend others. On the other side can you see how this can at times lead to compromising truth. Paul was addressing things that were not necessary sinful in itself.

As a young student, I have lots of friends whom I play around with and share scripture with here and there but I always make sure to tell them the truth as it is from the Word. They still know that I love them very much even if they disagree at times. It is all about our approach. We need to walk in love at all times like you said but also divide the word of truth...with love!

Nate

kwamenat,

You stated,

"On the other side can you see how this can at times lead to compromising truth. Paul was addressing things that were not necessary sinful in itself.

EXACTLY! The issue of what day to worship on is NOT a question that has a right (correct) or wrong (sinful) answer.

Paul makes that point exactly in Romans 14:1 when he said,

5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind.

He makes the identical point in the next few verses about eating of foods that some would not eat because thay were declared unclean in the Old Testament... some food that God had in fact commanded that they not eat in the Old Testament..

For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables. 3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him.

It is all done with love to the brothers and their conscience in mind,

13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother’s way.

Now...it is apparent that food, days of rest or worship, and many other things no longer are restrictive on the follower of Jesus. It is the law of loving God and your neighbor as yourself that determines our actions.

Please do not misunderstand me..there certainly are things that are specifically forbidden in the New Covenant. Specifically so in scripture...sexual relations outside of the marriage covenant, murder, lying, etc. Many of these are listed... as they also clearly violate the law of love. However, the issues of days of worship and things discussed in this thread were clearly addressed by Paul and the Council in Jerusalem in the book of Acts. They all agreed with what I am saying. Remember..Jesus said that the sabbath was made for man... NOT man for the sabbath.

Peace and Blessings To You!

Solomon,

Paul was not talking about the Sabbath day. He was referring to other Jewish festival holidays & Pagan holidays. Also, some of the Christians were offended cause other Christians ate meat that was offered to idols which Paul felt it was not worth arguing about which he was right.

Well if you don't think breaking any 1 of the 10 commandments is something serious and not a sin then i don't know what to say.

I think we have exhausted this topic well enough.

blessings

Hi Kwamenat
This is a great thread, you have covered the subject quite thoroughly. I would like to add a little more.
We read in Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Here in prophetic terms we discover that the fourth beast is a kingdom which shall "think to change times and laws". Now I ask, what laws and times would God be concerned about? His holy Law or mankinds laws? Obviously His Law. So what power has done this and succeeded? History tells us that Sunday worship was originally pagan sun worship because they believed life came from the sun. The man who enacted the first Sunday worship law was a sun worshipper. Today the beast power is happy to claim full responsibility for the changes in the Law of God. They claim they did. I give you some quotes which I simply googled.

"You may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctified." James Cardinal Gibbons, The Faith of Our Fathers (1917 ed.), pp.72,73

"If protestants would follow the Bible, they should worship God on the Sabbath Day, that is Saturday. In keeping Sunday they are following a law of the Catholic Church." Albert Smith, chancellor of the Archdiocese of Baltimore, replying for the cardinal in a letter of Feb. 10, 1920.

"Have you not any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?" "Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her, she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday, the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday, the Seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority" Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism 3rd ed. p. 174

How prove you that the Church hath power to command feasts and holydays? By the very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, which Protestants allow of; and therefore they fondly contradict themselves, by keeping Sunday strictly, and breaking most other feasts commanded by the same Church." Henry Tuberville, An Abridgment of the Christian Doctrine (1833 approbation), p.58 (Same statement in Manual of Christian Doctrine, ed. by Daniel Ferris [1916 ed.], p.67)

"The Catholic Church,... by virtue of her divine mission, changed the day from Saturday to Sunday." The Catholic Mirror, official organ of Cardinal Gibbons, Sept. 23, 1893.

I hope you will verify these quotes for your own satisfaction. Man has boldly changed God's Law and says we are now under grace not law. I ask you to consider any one of the patriarchs. Do you think that they were saved by law or by grace? The bible clearly states Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: I understand this means everyone, even the patriarchs. Ask yourself, is Moses in heaven? The Bible tells us the answer in Mar 9:3 And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.
Mar 9:4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.
Mar 9:5 And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. The incident described shows us that God sent two individuals who had intimate knowledge of the struggles of mankind against sin to strengthen our Dear Savior for the terrible ordeal ahead of Him. Now, if Moses and Elias were saved by works of the law, then what need was there for Christ to die on the cross. If that was the case, then we could save ourselves just the same way. I certainly hope you can see they were saved by grace. So, we have this clear example. Hence, if they were saved by grace, it follows that the law wasn't in effect, right? But most Christians say that the Law of God was in effect at that time, that Jesus cancelled that requirement in the New Dispensation. How is that valid? Moses and Elias were saved by grace just the same as we must be. Who cancelled or changed it? I submit to you, the power that claims responsibility, the beast power identified down through the ages by Luther, Melancthon and many others.
Finally, what does God say about his Law. Jas 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. And also Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. Here in two places, the Word calls the Law perfect and the sure results of doing it. Yet somehow, God felt a need to cancel it by sending Jesus to die on the cross? Really?
Thankyou for reading. May God give all the true understanding of this most important subject.

kwamenat: I know that the idea of the law being done away with has been discussed here quite a few times, and there are many good comments if you were to search for those posts. I would like to give you a few things to consider.

Many people try to put the ten commandments in a special category as distinct from what they call the "ceremonial" law and say that the ten commandments are to be kept even though the rest of the law is not to be kept. A few thoughts come to mind.

What is the purpose of the law? Paul is very clear on this point on several occasions. He says that the law made sin to appear exceedingly sinful. Romans 7. It took away any misconception that I had that I was OK because I was living a "good" life. In this same place he talks of how the law ministered death unto him. Not because it was unholy, but because it was holy and it condemned his own efforts to be so. In Gal. 3 Paul reiterates this point as well as pointing to the law's restraining work. It restrained sin until the promised seed should come. Notice the word "until". The restraining work of the law is done. You referred to the idea that some might feel the liberty to sin if it were not for a commandment to keep the ten commandments. This is the restraining work that Paul is referring to. This work is now in the hands of the Holy Spirit and no longer by the law. We were kept under the law, but only until the promised seed should come.

In 2 Cor. 3, Paul specifically refers to the ten commandments and calls them a ministration of death. It is the Spirit that gives life, not the law. I think this is where a lot of people miss it. It is the regeneration of our spirit at salvation that allows us to walk in the Spirit. The reason that I am not under any compulsion whatsoever to keep the law, including the ten commandments, is that the spirit of the law of God is now engraved on my heart. As I walk in the spirit, I will not only keep the ten commandments, but I will exceed even that. It is not that God has given us a higher standard to live up to now that we are born again. Rather it is that His Spirit live s through us so that we live His life, not our own any more. This does not encourage a believer to sin in any way shape or form.

As to Colossians 2:16 referring only to ceremonial sabbaths and not to the 7th day sabbath, I think that this is a bit of a stretch. The original Greek simply says "sabbath". It is the same Greek word used throughout the New Testament in reference to the 7th day. There is no other context surrounding this verse that speaks to its referring to the 7th day or not referring to the 7th day.

In Gal. 5 Paul tells the church there to stand fast in the liberty wherein Christ has made them free and not to be entangled again in the yoke of bondage to the law. This comes right after the discussion we read in chapter 4 in which the bondwoman is clearly pointed out as that portion of the law which was given on mount Sinai, the ten commandments specifically.

In Ephesians Paul tells us that Jesus abolished the law of commandments through His own flesh.

In Hebrews 7 Paul talks of the Melchisacek priesthood and says that for Christ to be after this order, the law had to be disanulled, done away with.

I would encourage you to look at all of these places in teh New Testament. I believe scripture teaches that we are right before God through what Jesus did, not through what Jesus did + the ten commandments or any other laws.

I knwo there are many who teach that we must still keep the ten commandments, but I believe they have missed a very key point that is reiterated throughout the entirety of the New Testament.

blessings kwamenat.

Genesis 2:2-3 KJV
(2) And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
(3) And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

God rested on the seventh day, not full time. Nor do people rest full time. Most people have to work to provide the needs of life.

Hebrews 4 is stating that the people of God are given the same day of rest that existed from the beginning of creation and some do not accept it because of unbelief. It is also made very clear that Jesus did not name another day.

Hebrews 4:4-11 KJV
(4) For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
(5) And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
(6) Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
(7) Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
(8) For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
(9) There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
(10) For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
(11) Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Isaiah 42:21 KJV
(21) The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.

John 14:15 KJV
(15) If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Jesus kept the seventh day Sabbath, it was the only sabbath that existed during his time on earth.

Luke 4:14-16 KJV
(14) And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about.
(15) And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all.
(16) And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

Jesus kept the seventh day Sabbath, it was the only sabbath that existed during his time on earth.

Jesus also kept the ENTIRE Law of Moses. That doesn't mean that we are still confined to its specific requirements either.

It is not a confinement, it is a release.

Isaiah 42:21 KJV
(21) The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.

Matthew 5:17-18 KJV
(17) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
(18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

And all has not yet been fulfilled, Christ has not yet returned for the resurrection of the just and the defeat of the last enemy – death.

1 Corinthians 15:25-26 KJV
(25) For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
(26) The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Heaven and earth will also pass away, which has not yet happened either.

2 Peter 3:12-13 KJV
(12) Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
(13) Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 22:14 KJV
(14) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

It is not a confinement, it is a release.

You may feel this way, but it is not presented as an option to many people. They have made it a LEGAL REQUIREMENT for people to go to Heaven. In many legalistic sects and cults (like the Seventh Day Adventists), you cannot be considered a part of the "true remnant" UNLESS you adhere to a legal observation of what they think the Sabbath is.

The New Testament is quite clear that we are FREE from any requirement to honor special days. You can fulfill them if you want...but it has NOTHING to do with your status as a true child of the Lord of the Sabbath.

I am not too concerned about what man thinks - that is a trap. All I care about is what the LORD thinks - that is the only safe place to be. I will pray that the LORD shows you His will in the matter and that He gives you perfect peace in it all. God bless you Chris.

Hi HeartSong...

I am not too concerned about what man thinks - that is a trap. All I care about is what the LORD thinks - that is the only safe place to be.

I think that this is what all believers want -- to know the mind of Christ on the matter. Thus far, I personally feel that the Word of God is quite clear on this matter -- that we aren't bound to fulfill specific Old Covenant requirements regarding a special day. I don't think that our walk with God (or our status as a child of God) is dependent upon strict adherence to any specific provisions found in the Law of Moses.

I am not bothered by those who observe special days. I do think that there is something wrong when a local church, sect or denomination uses it as a condition for fellowship (or by which we can tell if someone is REALLY a believer or not).

Holiness is more a condition of the heart of a believer who longs desperately to fellowship with the Lord DAILY than whether or not someone walks a mile, cooks dinner, mows the grass on works an 8 hr shift on Saturday (or Sunday).

Something you might try is to momentarily set aside what you "know" scripture to say and ask the LORD to show you what He says. Then ask Him to show you how it lines up with Scripture. Sometimes we get caught up in what we "think" and in so doing, we miss the "know." You are obviously very intelligent and sometimes that can get in the way.

Hi HeartSong...

Something you might try is to momentarily set aside what you "know" scripture to say and ask the LORD to show you what He says. Then ask Him to show you how it lines up with Scripture. Sometimes we get caught up in what we "think" and in so doing, we miss the "know." You are obviously very intelligent and sometimes that can get in the way.

Many of us do this EVERY TIME that we prayerfully study the Scriptures. Regardless of how much I have studied, no matter how much I have prayed, no matter my work for God, no matter my degrees, or regardless of all of the supernatural things that I have seen the Lord do for me -- I am ALWAYS keenly aware of the flawed humanity that we live in on this side of the "glass darkly" of Eternity.

Of course, your advice is good...and should be paramount no matter what our opinion is on any matter.

Still, there are some things for which the Word of God is exceedingly clear on. One of those is in regard to observing certain days as "sacred" (Romans chapter 14; Hebrews 4). Another is how we are not bound to strict adherence to the requirements of the Law of the Old Covenant (Romans 6, 7, 8).

I have no problem with someone who wants to fulfill what they think is a requirement of Sabbath adherence. However, I do have a problem when someone proclaims those as a requirement for being part of a "remnant" of "true believers" or use such adherence as a prerequisite for either ministry or "sustaining" salvation.

Hi everyone,
I would just like to share what the Lord showed me as a young christian,just learning the commandments.I was at a seventh day adventist church for a prophacy meeting,and they had said that working on the sabbath, which is on saterday was concidared as taking the mark of the beast.
well needless to say i was really troubled in my spirit and asked a sister whos life was so godly about the matter.
She being so much like christ pointed me to the lord and said she couldnt answer that for me. I would have to seek the Lord for the answer. I prayed to the Lord and opened my bible next to me with the faith like a child,and the first scripture i read was;mathew 11:28 (come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden,and i will give you rest).
at that moment i knew that he is my rest.(sabbath).i had peace in my heart because our lord has a holy obligation to his children to lead them into all truth. i say that with reverance.I myself seek him every minute, hour and day that i am able to breath.his grace and mercy are new every morning,Praise His Name.
I just read a saying from a old brother who is now with the lord.I thought i would share it.

The law was magnified by christ, and made honourable; and therfore God in His righteousness must magnify for ever christ and his members with him.
Under the law they laboured first,and rested after (exod. xx,8-11); but under the gospel we rest first, by faith in jesus, and then work.
The Law begins with commands and ends with blessings; but the blessings are fruit upon lofty branches, which fallen man can never reach: he cannot and will not climb the tree. The Gospel on the contrary,begins with promises: and promises give birth to precepts.
the Law demands justice: the Gospel delights in mercy through satisfied justice.Moses blesses the law doer: Jesus pardons the guilty and saves the lost.

Choice sayings From: RC Chapman
around 1905.

I pray this blesses the hearts that read it.it provoked and blessed mine.

this is the first time i have ever wrote on these threads, so i hope i did it right.

i would ask you all also to pray for me, i just came back to the call of our lord, after a real hard and long falling away from him.the darts are fireing at myself and my family,Satan hates us,but greater is he who is in us, then he that is in the world:)

Thread
seekhymm
Member

Joined: 2009/1/18
Posts: 3
montana

Online! Re: Day of Worship
Hi everyone,
I would just like to share what the Lord showed me as a young christian,just learning the commandments.I was at a seventh day adventist church for a prophacy meeting,and they had said that working on the sabbath, which is on saterday was concidared as taking the mark of the beast.
well needless to say i was really troubled in my spirit and asked a sister whos life was so godly about the matter.
She being so much like christ pointed me to the lord and said she couldnt answer that for me. I would have to seek the Lord for the answer. I prayed to the Lord and opened my bible next to me with the faith like a child,and the first scripture i read was;mathew 11:28 (come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden,and i will give you rest).
at that moment i knew that he is my rest.(sabbath).i had peace in my heart because our lord has a holy obligation to his children to lead them into all truth. i say that with reverance.I myself seek him every minute, hour and day that i am able to breath.his grace and mercy are new every morning,Praise His Name.
I just read a saying from a old brother who is now with the lord.I thought i would share it.

The law was magnified by christ, and made honourable; and therfore God in His righteousness must magnify for ever christ and his members with him.
Under the law they laboured first,and rested after (exod. xx,8-11); but under the gospel we rest first, by faith in jesus, and then work.
The Law begins with commands and ends with blessings; but the blessings are fruit upon lofty branches, which fallen man can never reach: he cannot and will not climb the tree. The Gospel on the contrary,begins with promises: and promises give birth to precepts.
the Law demands justice: the Gospel delights in mercy through satisfied justice.Moses blesses the law doer: Jesus pardons the guilty and saves the lost.

Choice sayings From: RC Chapman
around 1905.

I pray this blesses the hearts that read it.it provoked and blessed mine.

this is the first time i have ever wrote on these threads, so i hope i did it right.

i would ask you all also to pray for me, i just came back to the call of our lord, after a real hard and long falling away from him.the darts are fireing at myself and my family,Satan hates us,but greater is he who is in us, then he that is in the world:)

2011/1/23 17:14 Profile / Message /

Hi In the Light! Every scriptural reference in this link comes from the apocrypha, which, to the best of my research, is not inspired by God. I offer you: http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/apocryph.htm for some reading on the subject.

Hi seekhymm. Welcome to SermonIndex. You did just fine.

Dear Chris,

I am ALWAYS keenly aware of the flawed humanity that we live in on this side of the "glass darkly" of Eternity.

Still, there are some things for which the Word of God is exceedingly clear on.

The problem is, if we already "know," we have no need for the LORD. Why would He shed His light upon that which we already "know?"

I am not trying to convince you of any particular thing, I am just trying to show you how you are getting in your own way.

God bless you and keep you.

Hi HeartSong...

If you truly believed the first, you would not have stated the second.

Actually, it is because I know the first that I am careful when I determine the second.

The problem is, if we already "know," we have no need for the LORD. Why would He shed His light upon that which we already "know?"

The Lord does NOT contradict His Word. If someone has a "vision" or "prophetic message" -- it had better align with the Word of God. Moreover, if someone were to publicly declare something more "earthly" (like "the flu shot is bad for people"), they can't just make such a bold unsubstantiated statement, claim that "God showed them" such a thing and then think that there needs to be no more discussion or opinions about the matter.

I agree that we should be "slow to speak" -- and only do so when we have something substantial to inject. Moreover, we should be mindful that our words are also mingled with grace and knowing and making clear the difference between what we DON'T KNOW is true, what we THINK to be true, what we KNOW to be true, whether opposing sources and evidences might offer a DIFFERENT perspective on what is true, and what the WORD SAYS to be true.

I am not trying to convince you of any particular thing, I am just trying to show you how you are getting in your own way.

So, I am getting in my own way? I am trying to stand OUT OF the way -- while still offering caution about what some people proclaim as a "truth" that God has "revealed" to them and who who stand so firmly on it...but who still caution those who don't adhere.

Someone signed up to the forums and brought up a much-debated discussion about why most believers don't practice Old Testament adherence laws for the Sabbath. I presented a response that is echoed by many believers. While I am firmly aware of my own flawed humanity on this side of eternity, I feel that the Word is quite clear on this matter (evidenced in the Scripture that I provided in previous posts). However, I do feel that you are inspecting me for not prayerfully and studiously arriving to the same prayerful and studious conclusion as your own.

I am not worried about whether or not you (or anyone else) practice some semblance of Sabbath keeping. For me: Every day is a Sabbath rest for the children of God. I am not worried about anyone calling me out simply because I don't adhere to their own particular, sectarian or doctrinal views on the issue. However, I do worry when someone presents a "Scriptures say that we must adhere" or "God showed me" validation of their view. That is quite a weight of responsibility! There are visitors to this forum -- including newborn believers. I do not believe that we should cause them to think that they are under some compulsion to adhere to Old Covenant laws. That can be quite a heavy yoke (or millstone) to carry.

Oddly enough, I do not work on either Saturday or Sunday. This isn't because I think that I cannot. This is just because I don't. Then again, there are some people who think making a sandwich on Saturday is wrong. If this is true, I have been "guilty." I suppose that this is akin to what the Pharisees complained to the Lord of the Sabbath when he healed the sick or when the disciples picked wheat on a day that they thought such a thing was forbidden.

This matter doesn't even seem to be one that we should be debating. For me, Romans 6, 7, 8 and 14 are quite clear on the matter -- and we should all endeavor to serve the Lord in this regard with a clear conscience. Yet I would also caution us from entertaining a deep public debate on matters that some might set up as preeminent for the faith...if they just don't matter so much in the shadow of Eternity.

I am not saying that I am absolutely right in this (or any) issue. My views are just that -- my views through prayerful study. Indeed, the Word does seem to be clear on this matter to me. However, I am also saying that we need to be very careful before we declare any sort of monopoly on God's thoughts on a subject.

Unfortunately, there are sects (like the Seventh Day Adventists) who take their views so far as to declare that anyone who does not adhere to strict Sabbath requirements are NOT a part of the "true remnant." That, in my opinion, is a misguided deception.

Dear Chris,
I am sorry if I offended you, that was not my intention, both now and back when we were talking about the flu shot. Please forgive me. I pray that you have a blessed day.

Thank you for the feedback everyone. It has been interesting comparing scripture from both sides. I have to admit, the sabbath truth is not that obvious, especially in the New Testament. But if we say it is done away with then how will we explain these passages?

Rev 14:12- Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. (What commandments are these)

Isaiah 66:22-23 - For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. (Even after the second coming we will still be keeping the Sabbath)

Daniel 7:25- He will speak against the Most High and oppress his saints and try to change the set times and the laws. The saints will be handed over to him for a time, times and half a time. (This is prophecy..lets assume it has nothing to do with the changing of the sabbath like someone mentioned earlier... then what does it mean and when did it take place?)

Jesus prophesy about the things that will take place in the future in

Matthew 24:19-21 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. (What time was this?.. Is this after the cross?)

Also, we have to determine whether the sabbath is part of the ceremonial law? Also, was there a difference between the sabbaths and sabbath?

Also, why do we think that God wrote the 10 commandments with His own fingers?

Chris, you really brought up good points...I am looking into all the text you brought up bro...I think we will all agree that we are not saved by following the law. You can keep the 10 commandment all you went but if the Spirit is not in you then it is all in vain. Yet, I don't know if Paul is saying we should view it as something bad cause the same Paul said in Romans 3:31 - Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. My understanding is that if you allow Christ to abide in you then automatically you will keep the commandments of God. The law was contrary to us before because no matter what we did we couldn't keep the law perfectly but now that Christ abides in us and us in him we keep it without even really thinking about it). I must say though the writing from Paul about the law,faith & grace can be hard to understand if we are not led by the spirit. Even Peter said that (2 Peter 3:16) The same Paul who at times seems to be putting the law away also says the law is Holy (Rom 7:12).

Personally, I really do not think the law is a burden. It is there for my benefit. I delight in keeping the Sabbath (PS: I also make sandwiches on Sabbath :-). When Christ came, He really taught the truth about Sabbath. We are suppose to be free to enjoy that day He sat apart since creation. It's like the good Samaritan story..If a sabbath keeping person pass by someone in need on a sabbath because they think they will be late for church or will be working then they do not truly understand the Sabbath. Unfortunately, some sabbath keeping people make it look like a burden. Also, just because you keep the Sabbath does not guarantee you Salvation cause many people keep it in a legalistic sense like the Pharisees.

Also this does not mean that you shouldn't spend time with God everyday. Without spending time with him daily, there is no way i can fight the battle against the flesh. He empowers me daily with His spirit so i can live as He would like me to. Even if you come to the conclusion that the Sabbath was only for the Jews, then the question will still remain. Why should one day be special than the other?

I think that is enough for now....

Please, let's continue to comment in love. We are one in Christ.

Hi Brothers,

I have been going through this thread carefully. And its interesting and helpful.

Matthew 24:19-21 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Did you ever thought that this particular passage applies to Jews/Israel and not to believers? I would be interested in hearing because- if this applies to Jews/Israel then surely the sabbath issue doesn't arise because the Jews/Israel observe Sabbath even now.

I think Bro. Chris is right in what he's been trying to say- everyone should read his posts carefully.
And at the same, I have no problem with brothers who chose to keep the sabbath/rest day/Lord's day.
And its very important that nobody makes this (observance) as a rule/regulation for fellowship or membership. We don't see this in ACTS ch15, which I think is the key chapter.

Ecclesiastes 12:13 KJV
(13) Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

Do we love God, do we follow Jesus?

John 8:28-29 KJV
(28) Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
(29) And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

John 14:20-21 KJV
(20) At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
(21) He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

The commandments of God are the same commandments Jesus refers to. God and Jesus are one, they always agree. Would you really believe that Jesus does not agree with the commandments that God wrote with his own finer? Would you really believe that the only commandment that starts with the word ‘remember’ is to be forgotten?

For me this is not about church doctrine, nor is it about denominations, it is about obeying God. I can find nothing in the 10 commandment to reject, the law is perfect. I keep the law because God wrote it on my heart and I love Him, it has nothing to do with works.

Psalms 19:7-8 KJV
(7) The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
(8) The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.

Hi Faith1...

For me this is not about church doctrine, nor is it about denominations, it is about obeying God. I can find nothing in the 10 commandment to reject, the law is perfect. I KEEP THE LAW because God wrote it on my heart and I love Him, it has nothing to do with works.

I have a feeling that you need just as much grace as the rest of us. Only One actually kept the entire law...and He was divine.

Now, let me ask you a question:

Do you believe that someone who does NOT practice a strict Old Covenant view of the Sabbath is really a true believer?

Thanks,
-Chris

Hello Brother!
A definition of Israel:Israel - which we get from the Greek, is originally in the Hebrew, "Yisrael".
Yisrael means, quite literally, "He has striven with God," or "He has been saved by God," based on which translation of "sra" was meant to be used.
At the moment Christ died on the Cross, the curtain in the Temple was ripped from top to bottom. At that moment, all Jews could look into it and see God was no longer there.
In the instructions given to Moses regarding the sanctuary, it is clear that only Aaron and his sons were to be in the sanctuary and even they could die if instructions were not obeyed.
Exo 28:35 And it shall be upon Aaron to minister: and his sound shall be heard when he goeth in unto the holy place before the LORD, and when he cometh out, that he die not.
I'm sure we all agree that Jesus was crucified by the Jews. (with trumped up charges) God tore the curtain to signify that from that moment on, the Jews were no longer the favoured of God.
Today, most jews deny that Jesus was anything more than a man. As a nation, they are lost, because without faith it is impossible to please God. Individual jews and of course gentiles are given the same opportunity to come to Jesus and be saved.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
The Israel of God are not necessarily jews. Remember the definition of the word. But the nation that denies Christ is also denied by Christ.
Mat 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
It is easy to get confused on this point because of the numerous references to Israel. God tells us Come let us reason together. Ask yourself, if you were God the Father and your favoured people deny Christ and crucify him, would you be pleased with them? Would you still favour them? The name Israel applies to believers in Christ, whatever ethnic background they have is of no revelance. When God gave the name Israel to Jacob, Israel as a nation did not even exist.
Thankyou for an excellent thought provoking question.

Chris, let me ask you a question, do you really believe people who do not obey God will be in heaven? We are all saved by Grace, but grace does not give us licence to disobey God.

The Sabbath existed at the beginning of creation. The law given to Moses reads as follows:

Exodus 20:8-11 KJV
(8) Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
(9) Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
(10) But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
(11) For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

God said to remeber because it already existed. Sabbath is not ceremonial, nor old or outdated. It was given to Adam and Eve before sin ever existed and will still be here when sin no longer exists.

Genesis 2:1-4 KJV
(1) Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
(2) And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
(3) And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
(4) These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

Hi Faith1

Chris, let me ask you a question, do you really believe people who do not obey God will be in heaven? We are all saved by Grace, but grace does not give us licence to disobey God.

I will try to answer your question after you answer the question that I have already asked:

Do you believe that someone who does NOT practice a strict Old Covenant view of the Sabbath is really a true believer?

Thanks,
-Chris

I keep the law because God wrote it on my heart and I love Him, it has nothing to do with works.

Hello Brother- I dont think even the Apostle Paul could say that he could keep the law.
But, I am not sure whether you really mean it.
ACTS 15: 9-Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear?

I'm new here but are questions answered with another question?

Quote:"I will try to answer your question after you answer the question that I have already asked:

Do you believe that someone who does NOT practice a strict Old Covenant view of the Sabbath is really a true believer?"
This is not a simple yes or no question.

I'm happy to give the answer.
Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. (Note:Not the whole verse)
- Who lives? Eze 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
- Who says all this? Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Here Jesus tells us He is the one in the scriptures.
What scriptures? The New Testament wasn't written yet.
I realize that most people miss this verse and its' meaning. That's why it's so easy to misinterpret the Bible If the Old testament-old covenant passed away at the cross, then it only makes sense that there must be a New Testament-New Covenant. But Jesus never said the Old Testament was invalid, as a matter of fact, in John, he tells the opposite: "and they are they which testify of me."
What was the definition of sin again? 1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
To recap- The soul that sinneth it shall die.
- Doing lawful and right = life
-sin = transgression of the Law
Now we have all sinned=broken the law. The penalty is still the same. Jesus offers to be our propitiation for our sins. We can say yea or nay. But unfortunately mankind likes to be boss and says I like this law but I don't like that one. So we'll make some new rules.
Does God recognize these new rules?
Isa 29:16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?
Who is the clay?
Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
We are all only clay in the hands of The Potter. Grace is how we are saved, not works. It is the gift of God. If Jesus really lives in me, then I will do only what pleases the Father. Jesus says that's all He does.
Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Can a person be a believer and be saved? Most emphatically, yes. Will that soul disobey Christ along the path? Probably. Does God excuse those disobediences?
Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Clearly, there are times for all of us when we make mistakes, God ignores those honest errors. But as I study, the Word will rapidly show me the truth if I really want it. "Jer 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart."
At that point, the thing becomes sin because now I know. Am I still under the Grace of God and saved if I knowingly break the Law? Didn't Christ come to earth as a propitiation for my sins. Now in gratitude for this sacrifice, I do what I want, not what Jesus says He does.
I'm sad that so many believers think that God doesn't mean what He says. Will just belief save you? Yes it will. But there are conditions. Remember the devils believe and tremble. Are they also saved?
Jesus must be your Lord, meaning you give 100% of what is you to the Lord. Then He can lead you as one of His sheep and guide you over and past the various temptations we are subject to. How many of us can truly say "not I, But Christ".
May God give everyone the love of the truth and the desire to search for it.
Thankyou for reading.

Do you believe that someone who does NOT practice a strict Old Covenant view of the Sabbath is really a true believer?

I do not believe in a strict Old Covenant view of the Sabbath. If you are referring to the rules the Priests and Pharisees burdened the people with, that really has nothing to do with God, those were rules made up by men.

I believe that God gave mankind the Sabbath to be a blessing, a time to withdraw from the cares of this life and to draw close to God.

Genesis 2:1-3 KJV
(1) Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
(2) And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
(3) And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

(Exodus 20:8 KJV) Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Now if you want to call not working on the Sabbath day strict and old, I suppose you can, but I call it obeying God.

Deuteronomy 5:12-14 KJV
(12) Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee.
(13) Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work:
(14) But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, ...

Keeping the Sabbath is a sign that we belong to God and He has changed us.

Ezekiel 20:12 KJV
(12) Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them.

God promises a blessing for keeping the Sabbath.

Isaiah 56:1-2 KJV
(1) Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.
(2) Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.

This is not talking about man made rules, but about departing from evil, keeping the Sabbath helps us to do this.

Isaiah 58:13-14 KJV
(13) If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
(14) Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

On the Sabbath, if you turn your foot away from doing your own pleasure and instead honor the Sabbath, call it a delight, honor God, not finding your own pleasure, speaking your own opinions, delight yourself in the Lord, He will bring blessings.

It seems very clear that the Sabbath is a delight which brings blessings and honor, if we spend that time in honor to God and not serving our own selves.

Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath.
Matthew 12:8 KJV
(8) For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

Sabbath was made for us, to bless us, not burden us.
Mark 2:27-28 KJV
(27) And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
(28) Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

In spite of the miracles that Jesus did the Pharisees still refused to believe Jesus was sent from God and tried to condemn him with their burden filled rules regarding the Sabbath.

John 9:14-16 KJV
(14) And it was the sabbath day when Jesus made the clay, and opened his eyes.
(15) Then again the Pharisees also asked him how he had received his sight. He said unto them, He put clay upon mine eyes, and I washed, and do see.
(16) Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of God, because he keepeth not the sabbath day. Others said, How can a man that is a sinner do such miracles? And there was a division among them.

So, to answer your question again, no I do not believe in a strict old covenant Sabbath.

I do believe in a living GOD whose WORD has the power to save, and those words include the 10 commandments. And the Bible gives us the WORDS that GOD spoke to the people here in Exodus.

Exodus 20:1 KJV
(1) And God spake all these words, saying,

Exodus 20:8-11 KJV
(8) Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
(9) Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
(10) But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
(11) For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Isaiah 55:11 KJV
(11) So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

So, now it’s your turn.
Do you believe that after you have accepted Jesus as your Lord and Saviour that it is ok to break one of these commandments and still go to heaven?

John 8:11 KJV
(11) She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Romans 6:14-18 KJV
(14) For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
(15) What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
(16) Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
(17) But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
(18) Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

It always comes down to allegiance, whose side are you on, whom do you obey?

My heart felt desire is to obey God.

Your sister in Christ

Is Christ our Sabbath? He is the fulfillment of the Law and so are we in Him. Is Christ in us. Is our new birth our new life in Christ? If we set the Sabbath keeping apart from the work of Christ on the Cross, we are taking His sacrafice and shed blood and stepping on the Cross as we walk to the Sabbath. Christ is our Sabbath and we are in Oneness with Him and the Father every day. We don't need a special day to keep God happy with us, He is happy with us more than we will ever know by birthing His Only Begotten Son in us. It is His works that work in us mightily and Christ is the greatest work of all. It is Christ who makes the Sabbath our perfection, for He is the Lord of the Sabbath and the Lord of our lives.

Yes, I will keep the Sabbath, but not on any special day, for it is Him that is our Sabbath and Him that we worship, it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. Therefore I am dead to any laws or special days or Sabbaths or anything else that takes away from the freedom we have in Christ. If Christ shall set us free, we are free indeed.

The mystery of Christ in us does not set apart our forsaking the assembling of ourselves, even the more as the time gets shorter. Not for the Sabbaths sake but for our Love of the brethren of whom Jesus gave us a New Commandment
Love one another even as I have love you. "and given myself for you". Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, ((((and gave Himself for me.))))

Colossians 1:26-29 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Hebrews 10:25-29 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Let us not trodden under foot making the Son of God and His shed blood an unholy thing.

He is our Sabbath. He is our life. He is our all in all.

I am sure this is not what Sabbath keeper think they are doing. I only ask that they revaluate their works because it is not our works that please God, it is the works of Him who works in us mightily. He keeps the law perfect in me and He is the only fulfillment of the Law, Making us "as He is in this world so are we" Perfect before the Father by He that is in us.

It is no longer I who live. Galatians 2:16-21 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is Jesus Christ in us, it is His Faith imputed to our faith, it is His life reckoned as our life, I could quote scripture more, but it takes a revelation by the Holy Spirit that Christ is now our life. "It is no longer I who live, but Christ who liveth in me, and the life I now live I live by the Faith of the Son of God."

He is our Sabbath, He is our rest, our only Rest.

Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:4 According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:

Heb 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

Heb 4:5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.

Heb 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

This is our Labor; in Christ, He is our Sabbath and He is the only One that keeps it perfect before the Father and we enter the rest He has purchased on the Cross.

Is Christ still keeping the Sabbath? He is now the Lord of the Sabbath in us.

In Christ: Phillip

And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. (Matthew 19:17 KJV)

If ye love me, keep my commandments. (John 14:15 KJV)

If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. (John 15:10 KJV)

For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. (1 John 5:3 KJV)

And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. (Revelation 12:17 KJV)

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. (Revelation 14:12 KJV)

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. (Revelation 22:14 KJV)

Hi Faith1...

Let me rephrase it so that it is a little more simple:

Do you think that someone is really a true believer if he/she doesn't "keep" the Sabbath (as you understand it)?

If they don't keep the Sabbath the way that you believe that the Bible says they should, will they spend Eternity with the Lord?

Thanks for the clarity.

I love bondage threads....

It's not surprising how often people show up here and dutifully operate under the letter of the law and therefore proclaim that a "Christian" should be keeping Saturday holy. The flesh nature constantly looks for rules it can fulfill without having to take up the cross and deal with the heart. But rules are of no value against the rebellious nature of the flesh.

The emphasis of the New Testament is not on rules but on a Spirit led, heartfelt love for all men. We don't just worship God by the letter on one day, but we worship Him every day by the Spirit. To those who have been given a new heart, every day is lived as unto the Lord, how blessed we are!

Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life... Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Rom 6:4,9-11)

In Christ,

Ron

Hello Bro. Chris!
Quote:If we set the Sabbath keeping apart from the work of Christ on the Cross, we are taking His sacrafice and shed blood and stepping on the Cross as we walk to the Sabbath.

Pretty strong statement brother. Would you mind explaining to me exactly how doing God's will ends up in your mind as stepping on the Cross? God is a God of order, your view promotes chaos. All you have to do is look at the different churches. There are hundreds of versions of what is called truth and everyone says their view is the right one. They all point to the Bible as their creed.
What is the result? Non-believers point to the widely divergent views and say I want no part in this confusion. New believers get the impression that God has somehow changed when the New Covenant was made.

What is God's word on this matter? Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. Did you see it? He says He changes not. But in spite of this plain Scripture, the man made versions of the Law continue such as: We are now free to do anything we like says one. Another says oh no, we now keep Sunday in honor of the resurrection, the next says the disciples gathered on Sunday, or we are free to keep any day we choose holy, I don't have to obey the commandments because Jesus died for me, every day is holy....

Let's see what Jesus said: Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. Notice He says He can do nothing of Himself and does only what His Father does.
What does the Father do?
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
So, at least to me, it is clear that Jesus as my Lord, King and Savior would not do anything contrary to the Fathers' Will. He says so quite plainly. If I have surrendered to Him fully, my deeds will be in agreement with what Jesus says He does.

What exactly is the New Covenant and how does it differ from the Old. Jesus says: Heb 10:16 "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;"

Okay, so Jesus empowers us to disobey the laws that He puts in our hearts.I think not.

In Hebrews we read: "Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:"
God says the first Covenant was faulty, can you find something wrong in Gods' Ten Commandments, why no, God describes them as perfect,eternal.
Here is the first Covenant: Exo 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:"
So what is faulty with this covenant?
We find the answer in: Exo 19:8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD. Please notice the ten commandments were not given yet.
Here we have it plainly stated, The people of God said "we will do". Who was going to do it? They were. They were all sinners and yet they felt they could obey the Lord's commands' in their own strength. How long did this obedience last? Sadly, only a few days, less than 40.
Exo 32:1 And when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down out of the mount, the people gathered themselves together unto Aaron, and said unto him, Up, make us gods, which shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.

The second commandment:Exo 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
Clearly the people could not keep their part of the agreement.(covenant) This is the faulty part. God knew they wouldn't be able to keep their part, but he allowed them the opportunity to try so they would realize their sinful nature. Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.

Now lets' recap.
Old covenant was faulty. The Old Covenant was the people obeying the Lord in their own strength.
New Covenant. Lord writes His laws on our hearts, we are empowered by Christ to keep them if we choose to obey. We however, do not like to obey, especially when it involves being peculiar or requires a cross.
Jesus always does the things He sees His Father do. In other words, if one is truly Christs'servant, he will do the same as Christ, i.e. sin no more. When we presume to change Gods' Law and obey our own version, well, I for one, would not be expecting a reward.

Nowhere in the Bible can you find any scripture that says the Law was faulty. Man, encouraged by Satan, presumed to change some of them, especially the fourth, because in that commandment we find out who God is, His Domain, and His Right to Rule. Without this commandment, we wouldn't even know who God is. Amazingly, this very commandment is the one that the majority of Christians feel is no longer in effect under the New Covenant.This is the major bone of contention concerning the Law. Why? what's the problem? God sets a weekly appointment for us to keep with Him. We say Oh but I have more important things to do that day. Any other day will be fine but not that day. God says you are my servant and that's the day I have reserved for communion with you. You can come another day but I won't recognize your day as holy. It's one of the six I commanded you to work on.

Who has the most to gain? God certainly gains nothing. I submit to you, Satan gains. Additionally, of course, the second commandment was removed entirely and the last commandment split into two so there'd still be ten. This has led to more confusion.
Who is not the author of confusion?
" 1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints." There are only two powers, God, or Satan.

Brother, the reality is that none of us has the right to change or abrogate God's Law. We can certainly disobey them, in fact that's all we can do of ourselves. God's Law is not the old Covenant or the New. The covenants differ in the way the results are achieved.

How do we glorify Jesus and His Sacrifice on the Cross?
By obedience to His Holy commands which are in agreement with His Holy Writ. The criteria for salvation is written in Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

May you gain a new understanding of this most important matter is my wish and prayer for you. Thankyou for reading.

Good thoughts Brother

Let me rephrase it so that it is a little more simple:

Do you think that someone is really a true believer if he/she doesn't "keep" the Sabbath (as you understand it)?

If they don't keep the Sabbath the way that you believe that the Bible says they should, will they spend Eternity with the Lord?

God has given instructions for us all in His Holy Word. If a person truly wants to know if they should keep the Sabbath and how they should keep it, they must study the matter out and pray for wisdom. I have no authority to tell someone how to keep the Sabbath.

My prayer and study has lead me to believe that all of God's 10 commandments are good and bring a great blessing.

God has written His law on my heart and I desire to obey Him because I love Him and He has sacrificed His son to save me.

Psalms 19:7-8 KJV
(7) The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
(8) The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.

Psalms 119:1-6 KJV
(1) Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD.
(2) Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.
(3) They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways.
(4) Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently.
(5) O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!
(6) Then shall I not be ashamed, when I have respect unto all thy commandments.

John 14:15 KJV
(15) If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:23-24 KJV
(23) Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
(24) He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

I really do not understand why someone who professes to love God and Jesus would not want to obey the 10 Commandments.

It seems that most are ok with keeping 8 or 9 of them. If I asked you is it ok to steal or kill, I am guessing you would say no it is wrong to steal and kill. But the one commandment that most do not want is the 4th ... keep the Sabbath holy ... so in order to get rid of that one they throw out all of them.

Honestly, which of the 10 commandments is no longer valid?
Are you telling me I can:
have other gods
worship idols
take the Lord's name in vain
keep any day holy
dishonor my parents
kill
commit adultery
steal
lie
covet my neighbour's possessions and family

And for the other person who commented that this was bondage; how can obeying the first 4 which show love to God, and obyeing the last 6 which show love to your fellow man be bondage? Rather, does it not show you have a changed heart and that Christ dwells in you, which is the only way we can keep the law.

Romans 3:31 KJV
(31) Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

This is a very simply question if we simply think about who the early church consisted of. The first Christians were primarily Jews, they wanted to keep the Sabbath and Honor the Lord Jesus Christ by worshiping on another day traditionally Sunday or the First day of the week also called "the Lord's Day" because it marked The Day The Lord Jesus rose from the Tomb. It wasn't until Paul started to more predominately evangelize the Gentiles the Sabbath wasn't kept because the Gentiles weren't under Jewish law.

As for the 10 Commandments they too are done way with. :) We are given but TWO Commands Love the Lord, Your God with all your heart with all your soul with all your mind and with all your strength and Love your neighbor as yourself. Under these two Laws we keep all the Laws but are Free through Grace to operate under and through these two laws.

Hi bibleseeker...

Hello Bro. Chris!

Quote:If we set the Sabbath keeping apart from the work of Christ on the Cross, we are taking His sacrafice and shed blood and stepping on the Cross as we walk to the Sabbath.

Pretty strong statement brother. Would you mind explaining to me exactly how doing God's will ends up in your mind as stepping on the Cross?

Actually, I didn't write this. I think that this was actually from Brother Phillip.

Thanks,

Hi Faith1...

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
Let me rephrase it so that it is a little more simple:

Do you think that someone is really a true believer if he/she doesn't "keep" the Sabbath (as you understand it)?

If they don't keep the Sabbath the way that you believe that the Bible says they should, will they spend Eternity with the Lord?

Faith1 wrote:
God has given instructions for us all in His Holy Word. If a person truly wants to know if they should keep the Sabbath and how they should keep it, they must study the matter out and pray for wisdom. I have no authority to tell someone how to keep the Sabbath.

My prayer and study has lead me to believe that all of God's 10 commandments are good and bring a great blessing.

God has written His law on my heart and I desire to obey Him because I love Him and He has sacrificed His son to save me.

Psalms 19:7-8 KJV
(7) The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
(8) The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.

Psalms 119:1-6 KJV
(1) Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD.
(2) Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.
(3) They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways.
(4) Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently.
(5) O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!
(6) Then shall I not be ashamed, when I have respect unto all thy commandments.

John 14:15 KJV
(15) If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:23-24 KJV
(23) Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
(24) He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

I really do not understand why someone who professes to love God and Jesus would not want to obey the 10 Commandments.

It seems that most are ok with keeping 8 or 9 of them. If I asked you is it ok to steal or kill, I am guessing you would say no it is wrong to steal and kill. But the one commandment that most do not want is the 4th ... keep the Sabbath holy ... so in order to get rid of that one they throw out all of them.

Honestly, which of the 10 commandments is no longer valid?
Are you telling me I can:
have other gods
worship idols
take the Lord's name in vain
keep any day holy
dishonor my parents
kill
commit adultery
steal
lie
covet my neighbour's possessions and family

And for the other person who commented that this was bondage; how can obeying the first 4 which show love to God, and obyeing the last 6 which show love to your fellow man be bondage? Rather, does it not show you have a changed heart and that Christ dwells in you, which is the only way we can keep the law.

Romans 3:31 KJV
(31) Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

I didn't really find an answer to my question.

Now, no one is saying that the 10 Commandments are completely null and void. What I am saying is that I have already FULFILLED THEM by the "law of Spirit of life in Christ Jesus" (Romans 8:1-2) -- which set us free from the "law of sin and death" (explained in Romans 5, 6 and 7). We are no longer bound to the old covenant...the old law. We fulfill it by simply following Christ.

Jesus explained this fulfillment in Matthew 5. Instead of worrying about observe the commandment against adultery if you are now freed from lust (Matthew 5:27-30). You don't have to observe the commandment against murder if you don't hate (Matthew 5:21-22). Do you see what I am saying?

God blessed the Sabbath on, well, the first Sabbath. Why? Because he had rested (completed his work) on that day (Genesis 2:2-3). Yet, we don't hear about the Sabbath again in the Word of God until Exodus chapter 16 -- a period of several thousands of years.

Did Adam observe the Sabbath? Did Enoch? Abraham? Isaac? Jacob? Joseph? There is nothing in Scriptures to indicate as much.

Now, it is possible that they observed something...or they simply remembered God's finished work on it. However, this is not recorded in Scripture. It wasn't until God gave the law to Moses where there is any indication of specific prohibitions or requirements for the Sabbath.

Still, we weren't freed from just MOST of the law of sin and death. The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus set us free from the ENTIRE law of sin and death (Romans 8-12).

I do not believe that we are under the yoke of this law. I don't believe that there is a binding observance or set of requirements to fulfill this particular commandment from the Old Covenant. EVERY DAY, I remember the finished work of God. EVERY DAY, I remember that he completed His work by the 7th day. EVERY DAY, I am to be holy. In my view, TODAY is the Sabbath rest for the children of God (Hebrews 4).

Still, I wouldn't mind a direct answer to my previous question(s). Thanks!

The Law did not die. It will never die.

That is why the only way to get "free" from it, (since we are sinners and always will sin while on earth) is that WE had to die.

When we died (in Christ), the Law no longer had any jurisdiction over us.

We now are under the law of the Spirit.

Romans 7:1 the law has dominion over a man as long as he liveth.

Romans 7:4 we have become dead to the law by the Body of Christ. What happened to the Body of Christ. It was crucified. Dead. The fruit you bring unto God now is not fulfilling the requirements of the law. It is fulfilling the law of the Spirit or the law of Love.

Romans 7:6 Says, "Now you have been delivered from the law, that being DEAD wherein ye were held, that you should serve in newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter".

Romans 7:12 The law is holy. That's right. There is nothing wrong with the law. Except, there is something wrong with us. We cannot fulfill the law in the flesh. We can only fulfill the law in the Spirit.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

This is why Jesus had to come in the flesh and die. That was the only way to condemn sin in the flesh and set us free from the law, which is good because God said it is good. It is we who are unable to keep the law because of sin. It is we who are not good. We need Christ.

Christ did not sin, but His flesh was a propitiation for us, for our sin.

If you try to keep the law you will find out that you cannot keep it EXACTLY the way it was given in the OT. And even Jesus said, that Adultery is lusting in the heart. Murder is hatred in the heart.

Now tell me, what does Christ profit you if you try to keep the law, the ten commandments. You have no need of Christ, then.

He has become of no effect to you.

Christ if of no profit to you, and you have fallen from grace.

How do you please God and overome sin?

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

How clear is this?

Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Marvel not that ye must be born-again. Ye must die in Christ and be reborn, regenerated spiritually.

Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Act 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
Act 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

If ever there was an opportune time to tell the Gentiles to keep the 10 commandments, the Council of Jerusalem would have been that time and yet, they saw no need to "trouble" the Gentiles with that.

Quote:

"Nowhere in the Bible can you find any scripture that says the Law was faulty."

Ro 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Ro 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Ro 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Ro 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

Ro 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Ro 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Ro 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Ro 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

Ro 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

Ro 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Ro 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Ro 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Ro 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Ro 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Ro 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Ro 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

Ro 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

Ro 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Ro 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Ro 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

The Law brings forth sin and makes it exceedingly sinful. The Law is what kills and the Law is perfect in what it does, the Law is who God is and no man can keep it. Christ is the end of the Law. We no longer serve the Law. We serve Christ by Faith in His living Word, which is Christ Himself in us. "Born Again by Incorruptable Seed of the Father The Living Word Himself, Who is Christ". 1 Peter 1:18-23 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

The living Word, The Living Logos of God. John 1:1-5 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Quote: ""Would you mind explaining to me exactly how doing God's will ends up in your mind as stepping on the Cross?""

If a person is doing all good of the Law in an effort to please God, either for salvation or to please God and manipulate God into blessings, then He now is competing with Christ for the glory of completing and accomplishing justification. As Christ is our only justification and He has been made much more that this; 1 Corinthians 1:27-31 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. ((((((((But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:)))))))) That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

I will not glory in anything, be it law keeping, Sabbath keeping or any other thing except Christ and Him Crucified, this I also always preach; "Christ in you the Hope of Glory".

In Christ: Phillip

As for the 10 Commandments they too are done way with. :) We are given but TWO Commands Love the Lord, Your God with all your heart with all your soul with all your mind and with all your strength and Love your neighbor as yourself. Under these two Laws we keep all the Laws but are Free through Grace to operate under and through these two laws.

Matthew, are you suggesting the acts of adultery, murder, coveting, lying, dishonoring God, using his name in vain are acceptable for a Christian?

Even non Christians know that are not acceptable.

Hi Bro. Chris Sorry for the mistake.

Hello Bro Chris: Of course the Law didn't die. God calls it perfect and eternal. It seems the large majority thinks that the only thing we have to do is, in short "Love". Jesus says if you love perfectly you fullfil the Law. Very true. And just the same as you, I believe that Jesus indwelling in me gives me the power to overcome. Does that mean I no longer have to do anything? You quote Romans to prove this. If we don't have to do anything then it amounts to God forcing us to keep the two. Again I know from the posts on this forum, everyones hair will rise against this statement. But the reality is that I know many Christians who believe this doctrine and their fruits belie their words. Don't presume to tell me I'm not obligated to keep the commandments, that there is nothing for me to do. God has given me a mind and He expects me to use it. Faith without works is dead being alone. Also in Isa 30:21 "And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left." I have to exercise faith. But I am still free to sin if I wish, deliberately or in innocence.
If I believe the greater exposition of the two commandments, i.e. the ten, are no longer necessary to point out sin to me, I'm in serious trouble because I'm still in the flesh, in other words I deny that I need any further knowledge about sin. Yes of course if I'm in Jesus and Jesus in me, and I OBEY Him, I am dead to the Law. You say this very clearly. But the instant a person sins again they come under the Law and its' penalty.(See Ezekial 18:20-24) Unless they never sin again, the full Law will be necessary for us to identify that sin. I really hope that no one is saying they never sin. And yes, Christ shows us our sins as well by His indwelling in us. And of course He never forces anyone. Like I said we can still sin.
The two commandments Christ gave us clearly point out our duty.
Mar 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
Mar 12:31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
I totally believe this. But I find that God does not stop there. Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
Now listen Bro. Just because the majority of folks think that all you need is Love, that's not what God says. The majority has always been wrong. I give you a couple of verses to prove this.

How many people will be saved and what are their characteristics?
Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
What is a remnant? It's a little piece of the original.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Notice the doing part, please. It's a conscious, rational decision that governs their actions.

What commandments? Obviously the two above. But what did Jesus say about those two commandments?

Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
He's saying these two are the embodiment of the law.

I'm going to repeat this again because no one seems to see it. What's the problem with you keeping all the law? If you really believe in Jesus, that's what he says He does. (see John 1:19). Therefore if Jesus is dwelling in you, you'll do only what He does. I submit to you, Keeping Sabbath is just too much out of step with your life, that's the real problem.

I have kept the Sabbath for over half my life. The Lord removed huge obstacles in order for me to keep it. He has blessed me with countless blessings even before I fully understood this marvellous day and its' purpose. When I first set Sabbath aside, it wasn't unusual to also have a party that day, complete with party favours. Now I am 60 years old and of course those things are gone. I know I am not righteous. But the hours of the Sabbath are when I learn things from the Lord like no other day. There is a purpose for the Sabbath and it has nothing to do with obeying the Law. "The Sabbath was made for man" The purpose is divine and if you don't keep the day God set aside, you will never gain the pronounced blessing. Suit yourself. Each of you is a free agent with the power to choose. Without a total surrender, you are the only one who loses. You will interpret the scriptures according to man's knowledge coupled with your own. I see this whole site filled with man's knowledge.

Can anybody out there truly say they have conquered all the lusts of the flesh? I highly doubt it. Certainly in my case, I still get angry in traffic, I still want a new car because my neighbour got one, I want.... Yes, Christ dwelling in me guides me. Does He stop me from succumbing to the flesh? No, its' my choice. Does He forgive me when I repent? He says He does. Then I sin again. This is crucifying Him again, not, like I was told here, obeying God and His law.
No, I'm not perfect. So I still need the Law to point out sin to me. Because I am human and not sinless. Can keeping the Law save me? Of course not. But I try to keep it because Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

May all realize that the real road is narrow and few there be that find it. Yes, Jesus is the way, but there is that other part, our obedience. There, just like the Israelites, we say "we will do it" forgetting that obedience is taking the whole Word, not just the parts that are smooth and then interpreting to suit ourselves.
Thanks to everyone for their comments.

bibleseeker,

Jesus did not even keep the Sabbath. He transgressed it according to the Pharisees.

You cannot and have never kept the Sabbath the way that God told Israel to keep it.

The law is good, but the born-again believer who has the Spirit of God indwelling him, has died in Christ, thus where the law will never die, the born-again believer has died to the law.

This is an understanding that is given to a born-again, Spirit-filled believer, by the Spirit.

Natan4Jesus says,

what i mean to say is that i once came to this forum for Fruit, for iron sharpening iron, for that agape love between saints, which i crave, but lately...something very hard hearted, and cold has crept in here, a brittle form of religiousity that is totally bereft of Jesus' Love.

I am only here for a short while. My observation. There is much mixture here. God does not dwell in mixture or Internet Forums. Just people.

If He did dwell in Internet forums, He would not be here, because of the mixture (lies and truth).

Maybe that will help you.

This is just a conglomeration of great stuff and bad stuff.

"Nowhere in the Bible can you find any scripture that says the Law was faulty."

Rom 7:7-14
(7) What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
(8) But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
(9) For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
(10) And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
(11) For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
(12) Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
(13) Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
(14) For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Heb 7:18-19
(18) For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
(19) For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

I have been following this post a bit, interested in where each person is coming from in their way of thinking about the law. It is true that the law is NEVER said to be evil. The law was holy and just and righteous and true. It was an expression of, or perhaps more appropriately a shadow of the holiness of God. Man was carnal, sold under sin, but man (including the Israel) had this mistaken idea that he could, by his own efforts at righteousness somehow attain unto righteousness in the eyes of God. The law was given to stop the mouths of men and to make every one of them guilty before God. The law did not teach us steps 1 through 600 or even steps 1 through 10 to walk in so that we might please God or be righteous in His sight. It condemned us because in it were the standards that were only a shadow of the true holiness of God and we were never able in our own flesh to keep these standards. This is the whole point of Paul's lament in Romans 7. If we could not even keep the shadow, how could we attain unto the real thing. This is what Jesus shows in Matthew 5.

So enter the law. But instead of falling on their faces, Israel embraced the law as the way to right standing with God. They prided themselves on their ability to keep the law, at least the Pharisees did, and believed that because of their efforts they were pleasing to God. This is why Jesus used the Pharisees in Matt. 5 as an example as he taught the common folk. But in reality, all their efforts to please God by keeping the law were in vain. It was vanity because it was self reliance instead of faith in the transcendent.

So the law is not evil, only weak and unprofitable. The law does not bring righteousness, it condemns and brings knowledge of sin. So for righteousness sake it is totally unprofitable. In that sense scripture does call the law "faulty" even though it is totally Holy.

(See Rom 9:30-33)

(30) What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
(31) But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
(32) Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
(33) As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Jesus and right standing by faith were a major stumbling block to the Jews. It just did not fit into their schema. The them whose concept of righteousness was wrapped up in how well they kept the letter of the law, righteousness without the law simply did not compute. Jesus did not offer them a better set of laws to keep, nor an added strength to help them keep the law they had. He offered an end of the law for righteousness sake and a righteousness that was without the law. (Romans 10:14, Romans 3:21)

Many Christians somehow deep inside also have a bit of a problem with this idea. They will readily admit that righteousness cannot be obtained without faith, but then they blend the law back into the remainder of the Christian life, and in actual practice feel unworthy, dirty, and unrighteous to varying degrees if they fail to keep one part of the law or another, including laws they have imposed on themselves.

Scripture clearly says the law has been done away with. (See Heb. 7:18-19 above) Many equate this statement with the idea that one is saying, "So that means it is OK to rape, kill, commit adultery, steal, etc.." This is the same misconception of scripture and grace that Paul counters in Romans 6 when he says, "What shall we say then, shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?" For a person who retains a bit of the legalistic (law based) mindset, this is the first question that comes to mind, and Paul addressed it on purpose. (Please note, I am not throwing stones at anyone as I have and still do battle this mindset myself from time to time, so I am speaking kettle to kettle on even footing.)

Paul's point is that the new birth involves a death and a regeneration. We die to self and sin and are regenerated so as to walk in the power of the Holy Spirit rather than our own power. The law defined sin as "Thou shalt not commit adultery." If we follow strictly the letter of the law we soon come to the place of writing our own Talmudic tradition that defines what this means. The law NEVER condemned lusting after a woman. One could have all the lust in his or her heart that one wished and still be keeping the letter of the law "thou shalt not commit adultery" flawlessly. Jesus in Matt. 5 showed us the ineffectual nature of the law when he said, "the law says don't commit adultery but I say lust is really adultery in the heart." That is the point. If I walk in the spirit I will live a life that is orders of magnitude more "holy" by the very nature of regeneration and a spiritual life than I ever could by keeping the law.

Paul warns us in Galatians, Romans, Hebrews, and in several other places that to return to an emphasis on keeping law rather than walking in the Spirit, and in addition to righteousness by faith as in the Galatian church, is fraught with danger and should be avoided. It leads us back into the bondage of legalism. (See Gal. 5)

This is why Paul's statement in the letter to the Corinthian church is so significant. He calls the ten commandments in particular a ministration of death. The law is good if it is used lawfully.

1Ti 1:8-10
(8) But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
(9) Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
(10) For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

The law condemns these people and shows them that they are guilty of sin before God and puts an end to any form of self righteousness. That is the only purpose of the law in the NT.

http://www.milechai.com/judaism/613-laws-of-the-torah-365-negative-laws.html

This site will show people the laws that are to be kept. If you keep one of the laws, you are required to keep all of the laws. Men, please take a look at laws 43-51. If you keep the day of the sabbath as a requirement, you are required to follow these as well.

Have you broken any of these laws between 43-51?

How about 235 and 236?

maybe you were in crabby mood, because that question to Matthew has a slight accusatory tint:

Maybe so.

Neil, I have been on SI for a while. And so have you. If you read these forums you will recall that this issue comes up periodically and always there will be people who will argue against keeping the LORD's Day: these folks will say that Jesus is our Sabbath and therefore it is not important for Christians to set aside one day a week to reflect on Him, his mercy and goodness to mankind. Then you have those who declare it is very important for Christians to observe the LORD's Day. Some will take this one step further and insist it be done on our Sat., that Sunday is not the Sabbath.

These arguments weary me.

The bottom question is why does one insist that God is not worthy to be honored one day a week by abstaining from gainful employment to reflect on Him?

God rested after working six days. For the 6000 years since then, God's people have set aside one day a week to reflect on Him, to participate in corporate worship. Is it not odd that the modern church fights this practice? The church that has backslid so far into apostasy is now teaching us that this is not essential?

Yes, Neil, I am weary....do I ask for forgiveness? No. But the fight against apostasy gets wearisome....

Neil, lest you think this lady is gloom and doom, I will have to say the LORD has been doing some wonderful things in our lives...God is proving himself bigger then us..perhaps one day I can speak more of it - I am yet in awe and wonder if I am misreading current events....God is GOOD and I so worship Him - He is so much bigger and greater then we...AMEN!

Blessings,
ginnyrose

Hi Sister Ginny...

The bottom question is why does one insist that God is not worthy to be honored one day a week by abstaining from gainful employment to reflect on Him?

I don't know that anyone insisted "that God is not worthy to be honored one day a week" including the "abstaining from gainful employment" in order to reflect on Him. I think that you may be misunderstanding the views of many if you think that this is our underlying conclusion regarding Old Covenant Sabbath requirements for believers under the New Covenant.

For me, the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus causes me to fulfill the Sabbath every day. I remember the Lord everyday. I strive for holiness everyday. I commune with God everyday. On TWO days, I don't "work" (for gainful employment) -- although I might "work" according to the letter of the Old Testament law.

Still, I do not believe that this matter is one that should be defined for us by another believer. Consider the words of Colossians 2:16-17:

Colossians 2:16-17 (KJV)

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, OR OF THE SABBATH DAYS:

17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Colossians 2:16-17 (NASB)

16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon OR A SABBATH DAY --

17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

In this sense, I don't think that it is up to anyone to act as our judge in how we honor God in regards to the Sabbath. I see it, in a sense, like the circumcision. There is nothing wrong with circumcising a child (in fact, many studies show quite the opposite). I, like MILLIONS of young boys -- Jew and Gentile, was circumcised as a baby. However, he question is whether or not it is a binding act of righteousness.

This is my strongest disappointment in these sort of discussions. Instead of it becoming a personal view of propriety in our walk with God, some have turned such things into a requirement for holiness -- or even a measuring stick for salvation.

During the holidays, the young children of one of my cousins visited my parents' home. They informed my parents that they were not permitted to eat ANY pork product (including hot dogs, bacon, or sausage). This, they saw, as a lasting requirement to even New Testament believers. Nothing that my parents have shown my cousin from the New Testament (such as "kill and eat" in Acts chapter 10). Now, I understand the principles that could motivate a person to avoid pork. However, to make it a binding requirement for personal righteousness is, in my opinion, akin to a person thinking that they are righteous because their parents circumcised them on the 8th day.

Yet it seems that there is a danger for creating specific requirements for the law of the New Covenant -- which is met by simply loving the Lord with all our our hearts, minds, souls and strength and loving our neighbor as ourselves. It is by doing these that we fulfill ALL (not some) of the Law AND the prophets.

God rested after working six days. For the 6000 years since then, God's people have set aside one day a week to reflect on Him, to participate in corporate worship.

As I tried to point out in a previous post, this might not be true. God certainly blessed the original Sabbath day (the actual 7th day):

Genesis 2:1-3 (KJV)

1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Genesis 2:1-3 (NASB)

1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts.

2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.

3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

However, the Sabbath wasn't mentioned again in Scripture until THOUSANDS of years later...by Moses in Exodus chapter 16. Adam didn't mention it. Enoch didn't mention it. Noah didn't mention it. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Joseph didn't mention it. So, for about 3500 years, the Scriptures were silent about the matter.

Is it not odd that the modern church fights this practice? The church that has backslid so far into apostasy is now teaching us that this is not essential?

Yes, Neil, I am weary....do I ask for forgiveness? No. But the fight against apostasy gets wearisome....

I am probably misunderstanding what you mean, but are you saying that speaking up for required Sabbath observance is part of the "fight against apostasy?" Again, I don't know what you are saying here...so please forgive my ignorance.

However, I just hope that no one is presenting their own Sabbath views as a requirement for either salvation or as a primer for standards of holiness. Of course, we could always argue that our own view is actually God's view of the matter -- which every sect or cult could do the same (even citing passages of Scripture to validate their views). To proclaim a particular standard for the Sabbath as binding for all believers in the New Testament could be just as exclusive as fellowshipping only with those who are circumcised or with those who refrain from eating pork.

Again, forgive me for injecting my perspective on this issue as often as I have in this thread. I just think that God is bigger than the Sabbath. There are many views on this matter by TRUE believers. Some feel that they must observe a continual Sabbath observance on Saturdays or Sundays. Many others feel that they can fulfill the purpose of the original Sabbath (the 7th day of Creation) by remembering God's finished work while blessing Him and walking with Him every day of the week. As Colossians 2:17 says, the substance of the Sabbath is CHRIST.

The Lord bless you.

Mar 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

Look and see, it says the sabbath was made for man, not an ethnic group, certainly not the group that hung Jesus on a tree.

Mar 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Mar 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

"These arguments weary me."

This begs the question, then why are you here?

Quote "Jesus did not even keep the Sabbath. He transgressed it according to the Pharisees."

Luk 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

Luk 6:5 And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Luk 13:10 And he was teaching in one of the synagogues on the sabbath.

Luk 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

Jesus, ss the Lord of the Sabbath, the Jews were subject to his rules about how to keep it holy, not, as you put it, the other way around.

Quote:"You cannot and have never kept the Sabbath the way that God told Israel to keep it.

Are you saying I don't know the difference between working and not working and that I can't understand the commandment?

The bible says:
Isa 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

ccchhhrrriiisss and many others, excellent posts.

bibleseeker, you are argumentative. So much good exposition and light has been given that it pretty much proves that you are just "playing" these people, now.

I think, in my humble opinion, that no one should answer you anymore because everything you need is in their posts, already.

Have you been born-again?

Your statement "So the law is not evil, only weak and unprofitable."

God's statement:
Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

It seems clear that God's view of his Law radically opposes your statement.

bibleseeker, it is crystal clear what the NT says about the Law, yet we also love the law of God written on our hearts.

This latest statement by you proves that you are only using God's Word to aggravate people. Personally, I don't see how everyone spent so much time on you.

God's Word does not contradict itself. His "law of the Lord" in Psalm 19, is speaking about His entire word. Psalm 19 helps you to understand this by giving us other synonyms.

Testimony, precepts, commandments, and they are all written on our heart.

You have got yourself in a hole now, because you have pretty much exposed yourself for not being genuine.

Bye, bye.

Don't worry, I'm leaving this forum. You folks love to select what to believe. That's what the Lord calls smooth things. The truths I posted have been ignored and I have been attacked because the Bible disagrees completely with "the law was nailed to the cross". I can see that a plain thus saith the Lord is not good enough for the majority. Very little of what I have posted has been my own words. I have stuck to the Word of God. The Bible says I have an obligation to speak the truth and it also says that no scripture is of any private interpretation.

When the Lord comes we will find out who is born again.
I'm sure that God means everything He says to us. If you think I'm argumentative, well you're entitled to your opinion.

One thing I ask of the staff. Please cancel my registry and send me an email verifying said action.

bibleseeker.

I don't agree with your beliefs. But to "take your ball and go home" is not in the spirit of Christ.

I ask you to reconsider.

Blessings!

hi, the sabbath is from friday sundown to saturday sundown and that is the truth.in order to keep the sabbath one should have prayers at the candle lighting at friday sundown and not sweat or have any animal or employee sweat til saturday night sundown.one can not drive a vehicle on the sabbath; this is why jews lived in ghettos or in easy slow stroll to the syn....one can see how easy it is to be caught up in the religious beauty of these old testament rituals.i loved friday night services but i loved saturday and sunday services as well.Jesus must be our total salvation or He is not our saviour.Jesus plus circumcission or law is not the way.i rejoice that you hold the proper day as the sabbath but as saved gentiles it really does not matter to God. dead men and women are already in total rest with God through the blood of the Lamb.it is all about Jesus and His life and Him being our place of rest and safety and our source of eternal life.jimp

Chris,

I will try to answer your questions...

To help you understand where I am coming from, I do not for one minute believe the Scriptures teach that by following certain rules or law will earn a body any brownie points with God. All he wants is our devotion and love. In doing so, it will impact ones lifestyle because we will be walking with Him. The Scriptures teach us much what this walk will look like where the rubber meets the road. James 2:26: "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

We understand and know that God gave the Israelites the law as recorded, beginning in Exodus 20. There has been a lot of living that proceeded mankind before this point. Read Genesis up to Exodus 1-19. How did the people live? How did they know what was right and what was wrong? What was their source of information on how this was identified? Noah is described as a preacher of righteousness: what "Bible" did he use? The reality is that we do not know this, but we do know those people knew because they fell under God's judgement for their sin/rebellion. Joseph knew that to give in to Potipher's wife was sin. And that proceeded the law as given in Exodus 20. The concepts as defined in the ten commandments were part of their knowledge on how life should be lived with God.

Jesus teaches us in Mark 2:27,28: "And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: 28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath." (v. 28 hints at his diety). Jesus is saying the sabbath was made for man. God made it for our benefit. Think about it! How is this day different from the other six? Why does man need a day set apart from gainful work/employment? Man needs it, no way around it. We need it for spiritual renewal, we need it for physical renewal as well as mental renewal.

Christian people are very work-driven. We want to be occupied in creating, in producing. But we need to step back and STOP to relax. It is healthier for one spiritually, mentally and physically.

Rest. Do nothing. Stop. I have learned that when I sew (I just love to sew, embroider with my machine - it is not work for me, but a hobby) on the LORD's day, I am more prone to make errors that require more time to correct. I would have been much further ahead to have done NOTHING.

Another example of the principle of resting. The OT law stipulated that when a female was menstruating, she was to be unclean. What ever she touched was to be unclean. Now step back a moment and consider how this impacted ones work...just think about it. It meant she sit and do nothing! and whatever she sat on was to be washed! Chris, do you know it is healthier for a female to take life easy during this time, that it provides her with more energy for the rest of the month? It is resting. Give your fragile body a time to relax. Consider the law regarding a woman who just gave birth. Same thing but you have the added dimension of the mother bonding with the child. I understand that while these laws are not binding for us today, they do teach us a lot about our bodies with its limitations and what we can do to protect this temple wherein God's Spirit dwells.

The story is also said of wagon trains that went west during the 1800s. Some traveled 7 days, others believed one day out of seven should be spent in resting. One wagon master insisted they travel everyday until you get there. Another said "NO!" and didn't. After a while the ones who were resting overtook those who insisted on traveling all week. The ones who rested got there before the others, their animals healthy in contrast to the others who were wore out and/or died.

We do understand there are times when one has to do work on the LORD's day. There are doctors and nurses who care for the sick. There are cows to be milked, chickens to be fed, etc. Several years ago when we were told that a bad hurricane is coming men worked HARD to protect themselves from its onslaught. There were ripe crops in the field waiting to be harvested so they ran their machines as long as they could - 24 hours a day, including Sunday. They ran them non-stop until humidity/rain stopped them or after they they got it all done. Actually, I think they got it all harvested before the hurricane got here. (If a heavy wind with rain hits a ripe crop it will destroy it - knocking the ripe grain off the plants.)

Chris, we need to take time out of our busy schedules to reflect on Man's relationship with his creator. Sure, we do it all day long, but there is something to be said about ceasing from gainful employment one day a week.

We know that violation of the observance of the LORD's day is not listed in the category of sins. However, as we look at life God gave us brains to help us understand that emergencies and needs arise that need to be dealt with immediately. Mercy and love need to rule the day. Unfortunately, the Pharisees made this day hard for people, but this is not God's way. May I suggest that as we consider life in light of the entire written WORD that we take lessons, knowing full well that when God says "do this" or "do not do that" it was for our own good. Always. Doing it God's way means Jesus is yoked together with us enabling us to do it better, doing it His way. It is when we choose to plow/pull without him yoked together with us that we run into trouble.

Do you understand what I am saying, Chris?

ginnyrose

I have to say I am shocked at the turn this topic has taken.

For all you "Christian" people to turn on bibleseeker just because he does not agree with you is shameful. If he has offended you, so what? Were is your spirit of love? If Christ is truly in you, then why are you offended?

Psalms 119:165-167 KJV
(165) Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.
(166) LORD, I have hoped for thy salvation, and done thy commandments.
(167) My soul hath kept thy testimonies; and I love them exceedingly.

I am not SDA, I am just a person who wants to keep the seventh-day Sabbath, the day God chose in Genesis before sin entered into the world, before there were Jews or Pharisees. I have not judged you for what day you keep or what church you attend.

But I have not received a thoughtful response to any of my posts. I respect your freedom to choose what you believe. Someone has tried to get me to respond in such a fashion as to be able to accuse me of condemning others for not following what I believe. This I will not do.

I have no interest in anyone following me, we are to follow Jesus and He always did those things that pleased his Father.

The question I am waiting to hear any honest answer to is the following:

Which of the 10 commandments is no longer valid?
Are you telling me I can:
have other gods
worship idols
take the Lord's name in vain
keep any day holy
dishonor my parents
kill
commit adultery
steal
lie
covet my neighbour's possessions and family

Now if the law is gone then I can do all those thing above without penalty.

But if it is wrong to do those things, what makes it wrong, because man said so or because God said so?

Or do I just keep the ones I can and forget about the rest?

Isaiah 42:21 KJV
(21) The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.

My choice is to keep all the law in the power and spirit of Christ, of myself I can do nothing.

I respect your freedom to believe as you wish and I pray that you will be more open to others.

Bravo Jesus-is-God. Your last two posts speak volumes. Thank you.

"As for the 10 Commandments they too are done way with. :) We are given but TWO Commands Love the Lord, Your God with all your heart with all your soul with all your mind and with all your strength and Love your neighbor as yourself. Under these two Laws we keep all the Laws but are Free through Grace to operate under and through these two laws."

I have noticed some response to this and understand why one would think its blasphemy. Perhaps some clarity would help. If we Love God and our neighbor we are keeping the 10 commandments, The two laws Christ gave Love the Lord and Love thy Neighbor covers all the commandments.

If I love you and God Im not going to Kill you, Steal from you, commit adultery with your spouse, Lie to you. I believe the Power of these two commandments goes way farther than what the Law goes and even covers all sin against God and man. In this sense we have but two Laws the ones I have listed as for the rest they will be covered and taken care of with just these two commands.

6[It is He] Who has qualified us [making us to be fit and worthy and sufficient] as ministers and dispensers of a new covenant [of salvation through Christ], not [ministers] of the letter (of legally written code) but of the Spirit; for the code [of the Law] kills, but the [Holy] Spirit makes alive.(B)

7Now if the dispensation of death engraved in letters on stone [the ministration of the Law], was inaugurated with such glory and splendor that the Israelites were not able to look steadily at the face of Moses because of its brilliance, [a glory] that was to fade and pass away,(C)

8Why should not the dispensation of the Spirit [this spiritual [b]ministry whose task it is to cause men to obtain and be governed by the Holy Spirit] be attended with much greater and more splendid glory?

9For if the service that condemns [the ministration of doom] had glory, how infinitely more abounding in splendor and glory must be the service that makes righteous [the ministry that produces and fosters righteous living and right standing with God]!

10Indeed, in view of this fact, what once had splendor [[c]the glory of the Law in the face of Moses] has come to have no splendor at all, because of the overwhelming glory that exceeds and excels it [[d]the glory of the Gospel in the face of Jesus Christ].

11For if that which was but passing and fading away came with splendor, how much more must that which remains and is permanent abide in glory and splendor!

12Since we have such [glorious] hope (such joyful and confident expectation), we speak very freely and openly and fearlessly.

13Nor [do we act] like Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the Israelites might not gaze upon the finish of the vanishing [splendor which had been upon it].

14In fact, their minds were grown hard and calloused [they had become dull and had lost the power of understanding]; for until this present day, when the Old Testament (the old covenant) is being read, that same veil still lies [on their hearts], not being lifted [to reveal] that in Christ it is made void and done away.

15Yes, down to this [very] day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies upon their minds and hearts.

16But whenever a person turns [in repentance] to the Lord, the veil is stripped off and taken away.

17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty (emancipation from bondage, freedom).(D)

18And all of us, as with unveiled face, [because we] continued to behold [in the Word of God] as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are constantly being transfigured into His very own image in ever increasing splendor and from one degree of glory to another; [for this comes] from the Lord [Who is] the Spirit.

Colossians 2:16-20 (Amplified Bible)

16Therefore let no one sit in judgment on you in matters of food and drink, or with regard to a feast day or a New Moon or a Sabbath.

17Such [things] are only the shadow of things that are to come, and they have only a symbolic value. But the reality (the substance, the solid fact of what is foreshadowed, the body of it) belongs to Christ.

18Let no one defraud you by acting as an umpire and declaring you unworthy and disqualifying you for the prize, insisting on self-abasement and worship of angels, taking his stand on visions [he claims] he has seen, vainly puffed up by his sensuous notions and inflated by his unspiritual thoughts and fleshly conceit,

19And not holding fast to the Head, from Whom the entire body, supplied and knit together by means of its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God.

20If then you have died with Christ to material ways of looking at things and have escaped from the world's crude and elemental notions and teachings of externalism, why do you live as if you still belong to the world? [Why do you submit to rules and regulations?--such as]

1. Observance of the law produces spiritual death
2. The law contains shadows and typology whose primary purpose as many have already commented and the bible clearly states is a school master that brings us to Christ and as the bible says "we are no longer under the school master".

Today the Sabbath is not Saturday, Sunday or Tuesday or Thursday. It is everyday.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Notice he says sabbath days (plural). There were 3 different sabbath days in the OT.

Legalism kills, the Spirit of the Sabbath gives life, and He is Lord of the Sabbath. Not just one day but every day.
He is our Sabbath.

In Christ: Phillip