Is there really Eternal Hell Fire

I have heard many preacher preaching about eternal hell fire but is the fire really eternal?

Let's consider Jude 7 (1:7)..."Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire"

If i am correct Sodom and Gomorrah did not burn forever or else there will be a place on earth still burning perpetually.

Perhaps we have to look into the word "eternal" some more. Personally, I think the fire in hell will burn till nothing remains but it won't be forever.

What do you think?

I think these verses may mean the "people" in S and G suffering eternal fire, not the cities..but I may be wrong.

:)

If you are a sincere seeker of truth, then this thread, though it may take a while to read, could be helpful. These are the views of the moderator of this website.

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=6203&forum=45&start=10&19

The New Testament almost always adds deeper dimensions of understanding to events that occurred in the Old Testament. If Jude uses the word "eternal" it means eternal, if this word does not mean eternal fire, then we do not get eternal life either, as it is almost always the exact same word throughout the NT, if my memory serves correct, the word in greek is aionios. If you do not want "eternal life" then believe that the word "eternal" does not mean eternal for the fires of hell either. How the Sodom event practically works out in a physics understanding is not something we are privy to. However it is not inconceivable that the brimstone at Sodom, was Just the beginning of an eternal brimstone that those cities were subjected to. Even though Genesis tells us what happened in the physical realm temporarily, that does not negate or involve us in understanding what happened in the Spiritual realm as a result of the same event.

Good question. In my estimation, what one thinks about the literalness of the fires of hell shows what they think about the life and ages to come. I believe there will be a literal hell fire. Why? Because I believe there will be a literal and physical resurrection of the damned in the age to come. Remember, Jesus said that there would be those who would be tossed "body AND soul" into everlasting fire.

So, suffering in hell is not just some everlasting spiritual torment that happens to some sort of disembodied spirit or soul. It's a literal flame that burns forever and ever, a real person, with a real body, that never can be destroyed or consumed. The worm will never grow tired in eating those who are so ill fated.

Friend,

This topic has been discussed here several times and as Readymind pointed out you can look at this lengthy thread if you are truly looking for the truth.

But to answer your question about Sodom and Gomorrah. What do you think the verse means by " giving themselves over to fornication "? Do you think it means the people of the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, or the walls, stones, and earth? The object the verse is refering to when it says " set forth as an example suffering the vengeance of eternal fire" is the same objest that it refers to when it says "giving themselves over to fornication and going after a srange flesh". That object being the people of those cities.

I would also agree with Untobabes, and Star that the "cities" speaks of its inhabitants.

Ya but are they not literally burning right now as we speak?
I have located this link..It is more sound to me. I will read the suggested thread as well. My objective for this post is to come to the knowledge of truth from the word and not man's ideologies. I am not just posting things for the sake of posting. Please be sure of that.

http://www.helltruth.com/portals/2/hell-fire.pdf

Hi kwamenat...

Are you asking these questions (about Hell...or the Sabbath) because you sincerely want to know...or is there something else at work here?

This is not the place for a Seventh Day Adventist agenda. If you sincerely want to know, then by all means, ask. However, I hope that this isn't just a door that you are using to try and present your own particular views as "truth."

That said: There are many verses that present a view of an eternal punishment. Would you like to see them?

The following is from 9 marks EJournal:Pastoral Perspectives on "Hell: Remembering the Awful Reality"

"Wisdom so often in life prescribes moderation. It’s wise to eat with moderation, to speak with moderation, to feel with moderation, some would even say to believe with moderation.

But there’s absolutely nothing moderate about the doctrine of hell. It’s extreme in every way. It’s an extreme idea for the mind. It’s an extreme confrontation for the heart. And it blows against all the rules of social etiquette.

Embracing the reality of hell means setting aside moderation. It means admitting that our sin is dark and heinous to the point of eternal damnation; that the white light of God’s character and glory justly destroys those who have fallen short of his glory; and that that our non-Christians friends have nothing greater to fear. That’s tough to do when you have moderate views of your sin, your friend’s sin, and of God’s glory.
Embracing the reality of hell also means going against the fallen cultural structures and belief systems of this world, all of which conspire together with our own hearts to repeat the serpent’s promise of a moderate outcome, “You will surely not die.”

As hard as it is to stare at the doctrine of hell, surely it must be salubrious to our faith to do so from time to time. It forces us to once again reckon with who God is and who we are. We hope this issue of the 9Marks eJournal will help all of us to do just that."

http://www.9marks.org/ejournal/hell-remembering-awful-reality

I usually avoid engaging in these kinds of topics on this forum, as I do not really have time to get involved in long winded threads, but I am going to make a bold and marginalizing statement.

If you extract the eternality of hell fire as a doctrine from scripture, the entire Bible collapses in on itself. The gospel message would have no meaning. I will suggest that many people today question the doctrine of eternal hell because they have hardly apprehended the message of the cross.

Areadymind wrote

If you extract the eternality of hell fire as a doctrine from scripture, the entire Bible collapses in on itself. The gospel message would have no meaning. I will suggest that many people today question the doctrine of eternal hell because they have hardly apprehended the message of the cross.

Amen. Unconverted sinners wish and hope with every fiber of their being that they will merely be annihalated at last or finally reconciled after some time in hell torments. If any of those two doctrines were true they would be able to say with all their heart, "let us eat, drink and be merry, for tommorow we die."

Those who claim to know God but object to the reality of an eternal hell have not had enough of a glimpse into the holiness of God. If they did get such a glimpse they would make no such objections. Because He is infinitely holy it makes sense that the punishment for waging war against Him would be of infinite measure.

Kwamenat, your question of the doctrine of an eternal hell is a fair question. The book you have linked by some person, Joe Crews, from helltruth.com has some errors in it.

I do not intend to make a full rebuttal but I will make a quick remark. The Bible promises everlasting torment, suffering, and punishment.

Matthew 25:46. "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

The author of this book, Hell-Fire, makes a silly mistake on this point. He assumes that because "eternal life" is not promised to the damned that therefore this equates to "eternal death." Now, eternal death is an expression never used in the Bible; the very idea is non-existent. We do hear about "spiritual death" but that is evidently not Annihilationism.

Very simply, eternal life is not used in the Scriptures primarily as a quantitative expression of life, but as a qualitative expression. Eternal life is referring to the abundant life of joy and peace, etc., in Christ. Spiritual death, or eternal punishment, is the deficient life of those who are by nature enemies of God.

Moreover, I do not consider "hell-fire" to be a literal fire. I perceive hell-fire to be a profound description of how sinners experience the overwhelming Holiness of the Presence of God. (Deuteronomy 4:24.)

Nahum 1:6. "Who can stand before His indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of His anger? His fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him."

Isaiah 33:14. "The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?"

Some of the best teaching which I personally enjoy on hell are by a gentleman, R. A. Finlayson, who says,

"Hell is eternity in the presence of God without a mediator. Heaven is eternity in the presence of God, with a mediator."

And,

"Hell is an encounter with the character and will of God. God's nature is holy, and His character is unsullied righteousness. For the unholy to mix with holiness is Hell."

I would recommend reading the following two articles:
The Holiness of God by R. A. Finlayson
The Last Things [Judgement] by R. A. Finlayson

Ya but are they not literally burning right now as we speak? I have located this link..It is more sound to me. I will read the suggested thread as well. My objective for this post is to come to the knowledge of truth from the word and not man's ideologies. I am not just posting things for the sake of posting. Please be sure of that.

The link that you have "located" is a Seventh Day Adventist site. One of the many "stealth" sites that they run in which they pose like an ordinary Evangelical site and do not give their true church association. It is a deceptive method of recruiting folks into the SDA.

Clearly kwamenat is here to promota SDA agenda with this post and his post on the sabbath day and I highly doubt he is honestly seeking answers to his questions. Beware false teaching.

In Christ,

Ron

eternal life is not used in the Scriptures primarily as a quantitative expression of life, but as a qualitative expression.

If the word " eternal " does not suggest quantity, I don't know what would.

Actually If you would have asked me my denomination, I would have told you. Refer to all of my post, it is filled with scripture. I didn't know that I am not allowed to participate in a Christian forum because of the church i go to. By the way i have been coming to this website for a few years now listening to sermons.. i just thought i would engage in some conversations to see the view of others on some issues. If i was attached to my denomination alone i would not be listening to all these preachers on here.

Be careful when you make statements, you do not know the heart of man!

Hi kwamenat...

I think that I am more interested in just WHY you asked the questions in these two threads. Did you REALLY want to know the answers...or was there an ulterior motive to spread your own views?

Of course, we don't know your heart. However, this is not a Seventh Day Adventist website. The purpose of this website is to provoke people to seek God and pray for genuine Biblical revival.

If you have sincere questions, we will definitely do our best to answer them. However, I suppose that you can understand the trepidation when it comes to people who might come in with an agenda or desire to proclaim their view as undeniable truth that would be seen by those who sincerely seek God (via His Word) in truth.

The fact is that many people are sincere and prayerfully read the Word of God and have arrived to views that are different than the two that you have brought up here.

I find this amazing! You find a link i posted from an Adventist organization site and all of a certain I have a hidden agenda. Actually some of the folks on here pointed me back to other threads in the forum that share the same concerns. Please,let's put the preconceived ideas aside!

Like I said, i have been visiting this site for some time to listen to sermons. I just recently noticed that you guys had a forum to discuss Biblical issues. I love whatever keeps me in the Word because it ultimately will bring us closer to God. As a matter fact I ask the same questions i do here with people in my denomination to see if they really can give Biblical text for what they believe in.

Its amazing how you get excited because you have found a place where you can discuss the word of God instead of spend your time on other unprofitable sites like facebook...only to be rejected by fellow Christians.

Matthew 7:1

in Christ,
Kwame

boG,

Thanks for your feedback but I am a little puzzled..

Moreover, I do not consider "hell-fire" to be a literal fire. I perceive hell-fire to be a profound description of how sinners experience the overwhelming Holiness of the Presence of God. (Deuteronomy 4:24.)

What do you mean by a profound description?

Hi kwamenat...

I don't know who you are directing your comments toward, but I don't think that anyone has done this.

No one is accusing you of having preconceived ideas. Rather, I simply asked if your questions were legitimate...or if you were using these questions as a means to spread sectarian Adventist views. In the past, we have had some Adventists come here and pretty much dismiss the faith of everyone else because they didn't hold the same views as they did.

When you use rhetoric like "read more in the Word and see what God's wants you to do on the Lord's day....the Holy spirit will lead you IF YOU ARE SINCERELY SEARCHING," then the connotation is that those who are "sincere" will arrive to the same conclusion that you have.

Yet, in both of these threads that you started, you began with a question about why believers [here] have arrived to specific conclusions about the Sabbath and Hell. You are certainly entitled to an opinion that you can share...but you must understand that it will be largely rejected by most believers who have SINCERELY sought the Lord via His Word in prayer.

Now, I am not questioning your sincerity...and I hope that it didn't come across that way. I just have been a bit confused regarding whether you wanted to know why others feel the way they do -- or if your question was just "bait" for a debate. Since you have obviously researched this issue, I would imagine that you already know why many believers feel the way that they do. Thus, your initial open-ended questions puzzled me.

Still, you are welcome to come and discuss these issues in a manner that is in accordance with the Word of God (in decency and in order) and within the scope of this website's goals. No one is singling you out or "rejecting you" -- although many of us might reject a particular view or claim.

It is good to "test everything" (I Thessalonians 5:21). This "Berean" attitude should be a hallmark of all believers...but is sadly missing in much of today's church. People are too easily persuaded by pastors, teachers, TV and radio personalities and even family members. Our guiding light should always be prayerful study of God's Word. This is our guiding light (so to speak) by which we can judge all of the teachings of man (whether in the church, university, etc...).

Anyway, welcome to the forums. As someone else mentioned, these things have been discussed at length previously. There is a good search feature located at the top of the home page. In addition, let me encourage you to take advantage of the many wonderful audio and video resources available here. The SERMON RECOMMENDATION list at the right of the home page is a great list of messages that have impacted many thousands of people.

Here is a great message that has greatly impacted many:

TEN SHEKELS AND A SHIRT by Paris Reidhead
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=282

UntoBabes, you quoted me saying, "eternal life is not used in the Scriptures primarily as a quantitative expression of life, but as a qualitative expression."

To which you responded, "If the word 'eternal' does not suggest quantity, I don't know what would."

That is why I used the descriptive "primarily." Of course it suggests a duration. But the matter is that those who are cast into the "lake of fire" will also live there for eternity, as well. So what makes the difference between "eternal life" in heaven and, if we make speak thus, "eternal life" in hell? Obviously this is primarily a qualitative distinction.

Kwamenat, you asked me what I meant by a "profound description."

I meant just what it sounds like. Though, if it helps, you might replace the expression with "allegorical description." That is to say, the usage of "hell-fire" is an earthly description of a heavenly mystery – just like the OT earthly temple was representative of the Temple in Heaven. So "fire" is representative of the Holy Presence of God that shall be the cause of the sinner's torment in the life to come.

Consider, for example, another passage:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-10
[...] when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints [...]

Note: the phrase "from the presence of the Lord" does not mean "away from His presence" but, literally, "coming from [i.e., radiating from] the face of the Lord."

Funny. I had similar discussion with a popular music artist on FB yesterday about eternal torment. He doesn't believe that anyone will go to eternal torment but that they will be in Hell only for the 1000 year riegn of Christ. After that, they will get out and ALL will be saved.

After I gently corrected him he called me a weak brother for believing in Hell and blocked me.

Praise the Lord that He knows what is good!

UntoBabes, you quoted me saying, "eternal life is not used in the Scriptures primarily as a quantitative expression of life, but as a qualitative expression.To which you responded, "If the word 'eternal' does not suggest quantity, I don't know what would.That is why I used the descriptive "primarily." Of course it suggests a duration. But the matter is that those who are cast into the "lake of fire" will also live there for eternity, as well. So what makes the difference between "eternal life" in heaven and, if we make speak thus, "eternal life" in hell? Obviously this is primarily a qualitative distinction.

Thank you for clatifying that.

O.k, this is the way i always pictured it.

Here is a simple chronological order of what happens to us after the second come of Our Lord:

1. Those who are saved (Those who are alive and the dead in Christ will rise) will be taken up to heaven for a 1000 years with God. Those who are alive and not saved will die and the dead who are not in Christ will continue to remain until the 1000 years are over. (Revelation 20:4-6)

This is the time that Satan is bound (Rev 20:2)

2. After the 1000 years as shown in Revelation 21, Then God will set up His Holy City where the saved will be with him forever.

It is after the 1000 years that this happens...Revelation 21:8- But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

This is the second death. So apparently the death who were not saved resurrected after the 1000 years (Rev 20: 7-10) and tried to surround God's people and that is when they were devoured with Fire from God and cast into the lake of fire and brimstone.

In Jude 1:7, the city of Sodom is described as being destroyed by “eternal fire.” Is Sodom burning today? No. Therefore the “eternal fire” has gone out. The phrase, “eternal fire,” means it was a fire from God with eternal consequences. It was “unquenchable” by man (see Matthew 3:12; Jeremiah 17:27; Isaiah 66:24). The destruction of Sodom was also an “example” of what will happen to the wicked at the end. According to the Bible, God’s eternal fire turned Sodom into “ashes” (2 Peter 2:6) “in a moment.” Lamentations 4:6. This is similar to what will happen to all the lost at the end of the 1000 years when they are cast into the lake of fire, “which is the second death.” Revelation 20:14.

2 Peter 2:6 “And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ASHES condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly.”

They will have to burn to ashes only cause in Revelation 21 God is going to establish his Everlasting kingdom and the former things will pass away (V.4) How can the former things passed away if there are still people burning perpetually?

No problem, UntoBabes.

Kwamenat, I am not going to get into a debate about Dispensationalism (e.g., whether or not there is a literal Millennial Kingdom). But it is clear that you agree "eternal" means everlasting.

In Jude 1:7, the city of Sodom is described as being destroyed by “eternal fire.” Is Sodom burning today? No. Therefore the “eternal fire” has gone out. The phrase, “eternal fire,” means it was a fire from God with eternal consequences. It was “unquenchable” by man (see Matthew 3:12; Jeremiah 17:27; Isaiah 66:24). The destruction of Sodom was also an “example” of what will happen to the wicked at the end. According to the Bible, God’s eternal fire turned Sodom into “ashes” (2 Peter 2:6) “in a moment.” Lamentations 4:6. This is similar to what will happen to all the lost at the end of the 1000 years when they are cast into the lake of fire, “which is the second death.” Revelation 20:14.

While I am impressed by your grasp of "eternal fire" meaning it "was a fire from God with eternal consequences"; I am surprised that you still switched this with a merely temporal matter. That is, you recognize that the condemned of Sodom still burn to this day, but in your argument you switched this to mean the burning of the land of Sodom, which has long since been extinguished.

You also asked, "How can the former things [have] passed away if there are still people burning perpetually?"

That depends on how one interprets the "former things." For example, how can the former things have passed away if God is still God? The "former things" cannot mean whatever we wish it to mean nor is it meant to mean those "people burning perpetually." Rather it is indicative of the previous world system during the time of God's patience. Namely, this present evil age is the "former things."

Believe me, Kwamenat, when I say I am sympathetic to the doctrine of Annihilationism. If the Scriptures were not excessively descriptive of the final judgment being an everlasting conscious suffering for the damned then I would have defaulted to Annihilationism.

So you are correct to say "This is similar to what will happen to all the lost at the end of the 1000 years when they are cast into the lake of fire, “which is the second death.” Revelation 20:14." But it is still not the SAME thing that will happen at the end.

Bro,

The consequence is eternal. They will be burned to ashes. Are you saying they will literally be standing in the lake of fire forever.If so, you are wrong! The Bible does not teach that.

"if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly" (2 Peter 2:6)

Jude 7- "just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire". (ARE THE PEOPLE IN SODOM BURNING RIGHT NOW....NO!)

In Jeremiah 17:27, Yahweh said he would kindle an unquenchable fire in Jerusalem. This was fulfilled in 2 Chronicles 36:19-21. Is Jerusalem still burning?

Romans 6:23 - the wages of sin is death, the gift of God is eternal life. (It does not say eternal death)

While researching i also came across that some people actually use Luke 16 for everlasting fire/punishment. The story about Lazarus in Luke 16 is baseless regarding everlasting punishment. Jesus was merely using a parable to explain the torment unrepentant sinners will experience before they are totally consumed by fire.

Rev 20 talks about hell been thrown into the lake of fire.. I never thought about that..I will look into that tomorrow cause that may be a whole new study. Anyways..back to the my main point - People that are not saved will be burned to ashes and not FOREVER!

So is Peter wrong? If not what does he mean by saying that what happened to Sodom is an example to what will happen to the ungodly?

"The consequence is eternal. They will be burned to ashes. Are you saying they will literally be standing in the lake of fire forever.If so, you are wrong! The Bible does not teach that."

I ask how can a consequence be eternal if I am not around to live out the consequence? Doesn't seem quite logical to say there are eternal consequences but we don't have to live them out because we simply burn to ashes.

"And they will go away into eternal punishment!" (Matthew 25:46)

Can it really be an eternal punishment if they find relief in death?

Also consider the story of in Luke 16:19-31 The rich man goes to hell and then begs Abraham to send Lazarus to cool his tongue with the tips of his finger with some water and says "FOR I AM IN AGONY IN THIS FLAME"

Please tell me if Jesus would use a story and give us a miss representation of what hell is going to be like? Did Jesus exaggerate this just to tell a good story or was He giving us a warning so that we may repent?

May I also ask how is there going to be weeping and gnashing of teeth if everyone is a pile of ashes?

Matthew 13:42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Is Jesus just making these statements again because he wanted to be a good story teller and so streched the truth for the sake of His story?

I am all for openmindedness but it seems Jesus was pretty clear cut on this one. I can kind of see where you are coming from but for me it doesn't line up with what Jesus commonly preached and taught and so its a conclusion I would have to disagree with in a very logical sense of the argument.

The consequence is eternal. They will be burned to ashes. Are you saying they will literally be standing in the lake of fire forever.If so, you are wrong! The Bible does not teach that.
[...]
Rev 20 talks about hell been thrown into the lake of fire.. I never thought about that..I will look into that tomorrow cause that may be a whole new study.

Here is a simple challenge: define "everlasting suffering."

---

Mguldner, your argument is mistaken.

I ask how can a consequence be eternal if I am not around to live out the consequence? Doesn't seem quite logical to say there are eternal consequences but we don't have to live them out because we simply burn to ashes.

Mguldner, your argument is mistaken.

"Annihilationism is an eternal punishment. It does not require conscious torment to be eternal. It would be similar to turning off a light switch and never ever (for eternity) turning it back on. The light being off then is an eternal consequence. The problem is whether Annihilationism is what the Bible describes Hell to be."

*edited in after rereading your post I may have misunderstood you so please humor me :)*

Thanks for the response, I find your view of this quite interesting, can you experience eternal punishment with "weeping and gnashing of teeth" and not be conscious in this process? Just a question am interested in your response, I will admit I haven't done much research or incredibly deep study of hell but what I have read in the word and have formulated over time. So I am definitely not the all incompassing knowledge of hell :) I really hope I don't have to go there to know for sure though :)

Matt. 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CB6_QMHf0Uk

Psalm 68

1 May God arise, may his enemies be scattered;
may his foes flee before him.
2 May you blow them away like smoke—
as wax melts before the fire,
may the wicked perish before God.

Psalm 54
4You love all words that devour,
O deceitful tongue.
5But God will break you down forever;
He will snatch you up and tear you away from your tent,
And uproot you from the land of the living. Selah.

Revelation 14:9-11

9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

Surely Hell is an eternal experience of drinking the cup of God wrath. God is eternal and three times holy. Just as light conquers and scatters darkness so will God throughout eternity be pursing and attacking all darkness. The fearful thing about this is that it is an eternal destruction. Just as the burning bush was burning and being consumned and yet it was never consumned. Always being consumned and yet never coming to an end of it. Jesus Christ was the One Sacrifice of infinite value so when He suffered in our place under the Hand of God and by wicked men the power of that sacrifice is of infinite proportions. He suffered not only in the flesh but even in His inner being (Isaiah 53:10-11). The saints will by God grace spend eternity tracking down the glories of God in the face of Jesus Christ. The pour souls who refuse to have a saving interest in Christ will for eternity discover the power of sin and the condemnation it brings. They will forever be made to realize the infinite holiness and worth of the God whom they refused to love with all of their heart soul strength and mind. He does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked!; but He by no means will leave the guilty unpunished.

This is a very helpul writing by J C Ryle titled "Fire, Fire!"
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=2343

The pour souls who refuse to have a saving interest in Christ will for eternity discover the power of sin and the condemnation it brings. They will forever be made to realize the infinite holiness and worth of the God whom they refused to love with all of their heart soul strength and mind. He does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked!; but He by no means will leave the guilty unpunished.

Wow.

I have read all the replies and I don't even know where to begin. I found it interesting though that no one has addressed my question on 2 Peter 2:6.."if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly".

First of all I know for certain that the people who are not saved will not burn perpetually. This is contrary to the character of God. Actually it sounds pretty silly to me..to actually have a place where people are burning perpetually with God watching! Come on guys, wake up! This cannot be true!

Someone asked how i understood everlasting punishment..

Everlasting suffering is what happens when you are separated from God forever. The unsaved will be consumed by God to ashes. After this they shall be no more for eternity. It is eternal punishment because they are gone for good! The Bible also talks about the ungodly perishing or vanishing. For example Psalm 37:20 - "But the wicked shall perish; And the enemies of the LORD, Like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish. Into smoke they shall vanish AWAY".

If you are still using the Rich man & Lazarus in Luke 16 to justify "eternal torment" consider this:

If you take this parable literally It will signify that all who are clad in purple and fine linen and who fare sumptuously every day, are at death to be placed in a furnace of fire and tormented. It would also mean that unless we were poverty stricken beggars, the companion of dogs, full of sores, and fed on crumbs at some rich man's back gate, we would never be able to wing our flight to Abraham's bosom when we departed this life. Poor Abraham would experience considerable difficulty in clasping all of the poor to his expansive bosom. Why don't you spend time to thoroughly go through the parable and make sure that you understand the point of the story. Even scholars claim that the story is a popular jewish folk tale but i am not going totally rely on this because it is not in the Word. Also, what are you going to do with all the scriptures that are contrary to this understanding if you take it literally?

We really need to understand the Character of God in order to comprehend this eternal punishment issue.

kwamenat wrote

I found it interesting though that no one has addressed my question on 2 Peter 2:6.."if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly".

Answer,
Please read also verses 4 and 5 of 2 Peter 6. These verses list other methods by which God has judged the ancient world.

In verse 4 Peter speaks of the judgment of the angles who sinned, and in verse 5 he speaks on the judgment of the people in Noah's time. In verse 6 He speaks of the judgment of Sodom and Gamorrah

He is not saying the the last day judgment will take on all of these different forms such as chains, flood, and burning.

instead, this passage of Scripture is simply teaching that GOD JUDGES SIN.

However, in other passages of the Scripture we are told that the last day judgment will be eternel fire, but ulike the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah that burned to ashes, hell fire will NOT burn to ashes, but we are given the terms. Whose fore WILL NOT BE QUINSHED, and whose WORMS WILL NOT DIE.

Friend, unless you are wilfully blind, the language of the Scripture is clear.

Dear brother,

With your understanding of the punishment of Sodom and Gomorrah, can you expound on your view of Matthew 10:15?
"Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city?" To make my question more specific, please explain how in your understanding one total annihilation can be worse than another. If this is not clear enough, please just share your own thoughts on the verse above.

makrothumia

kwamenat also said.

First of all I know for certain that the people who are not saved will not burn perpetually. This is contrary to the character of God.

answer,
You have no idea what the character of God is like. You worship a god of your own making

It is only because of the character of God hell has to be eternal. You see, God is eternal. Unlike you and me, He lives outside of time. When we commit a sin, unless this sin is laid on Christ, it will continue to play before His holy, eternal eyes. That is why Christ has to be eternal. He is the only appropriate propeciation for sin that satisfies an eternal God.

This may surprise you, but God, because of who He is, can not pardon a sin that is not laid on Christ or reduce its penalty to anything less than eternel. I say this again, God can not do this even if He wants to.

God, because of His mercy, has made it possible for any human being to escape eternal judgment through giving His only begotten Son. Now is the chance to escape hell. God has provided everything for us. He will not be blamed.

The other thing I wanted to point out to you is. Once you can play away with eternal judgment, the next thing you will do is play away with the diety of Christ just as some have already done.

Good point makrothumia.

You have no idea what the character of God is like. You worship a god of your own making

I am pretty sure you do since you think a God who says in Ezekiel 18:23 that He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked find satisfaction in the perpetual torment of men, women, and children burning in the fires of hell.

Does a God of mercy have a specific location in the universe where the wicked are being punished by dreadful and horrid plains forever and ever? There is no indication in Scripture that such a place exists or is being planned for the future. Even the Biblical terms sheol(Heb) and Hades (Gr)are designations for the realm of the dead but not a place of torment for the wicked dead.

Consider the biblical teaching of life after death into account that says that the dead are not in a state of consciousness and that there is no such this as an immortal soul (Eccl 9:5-6; Ps 146:4), it should be clear that the idea of an ever burning hell contradicts the clear teaching of the Bible

I have not studied Hebrew or Greek but its obvious that the word forever or eternal is used a lot in the Bible and in most cases like when is talking about humans it does not mean forever except for those who will be saved. For example, the people were to believe Moses "forever" (Exodus 19:9), the slave in Exodus 21:6 was to serve his master "forever", Saul remained in the tabernacle "forever" (1 Sam 1:22). The meaning of "forever" is each time is "as long as that person lives" In the case of Jonah "forever" only lasted three days (Jonah 2:6)

This may surprise you, but God, because of who He is, can not pardon a sin that is not laid on Christ or reduce its penalty to anything less than eternel. I say this again, God can not do this even if He wants to.

Of course I am surprised because i found it amazing that a christian will make such absurd statements that holds no ground in the Bible.

I am young compared to most of you (i think) and I have not been to theology school but i know by the Holy Spirit through diligent studies that this eternal hell fire doctrine is FALSE.The Word of God is and always has been "line upon line", "precept upon precept", "here a little and there a little" (Isaiah 28:11). There are a lot more text that does not support eternal torment of the wicked. Diligents students of the word compare a Bible passages in view of the whole scriptures.

I don't recall the exact text but somebody asked about a text in matthew that says that the punishment to come will be worse than sodom and gomorrah. Ya, because this a complete and final destruction.

Please I hope that you are not brainwashed. Search the scriptures on this issue throughly before teaching it. I have done my homework and I am still looking deeper into it. May the Lord help us to rightly divide the Word!

PS: I don't know who will play with the deity of Christ- too many scriptures that supports that :-)

Much love brethren.

cchhhrrriiisss wrote on 2011/1/12 13:08:
I think that I am more interested in just WHY you asked the questions in these two threads. Did you REALLY want to know the answers...or was there an ulterior motive to spread your own views?

Ccchhhrrriiisss, I wondered about his post too. His first question is like he is wanting to know but he lets the cat out of the bag when he writes next, “Let’s consider....” A person who TRULY wants to know doesn’t add that; then writes innocently enough, “What do you think?” Which is the catch phrase for, “let the debates begin!!!”

Now four pages later, we know exactly what he believes and he’s getting what he wanted.

God bless,
Lisa

PS: kwamenat, DesertRose did answer your question.

@ kwamenat

kwamenat
With all due respect and courtesy, would you here confess that you as a sinner against God (apart from Christ) are not deserving of an enduring, conscious and eternal punishment for your sins?

Do you state that God is of less than infinite, eternal worth and glory? For if He is of less than infinite worth than any offense against Him could have only a limited consequence. Crimes are rated in part by whom they are committed against. You sin against a anthill and it is not anything to think about. You sin against another man and the consequence is greater. You commit a crime against the President of the USA and you have the FBI coming to your door. You sin against the King of Glory and it is altogether a different matter. As some old saint has said "We have not sinned against the mayor of some small village".

When God first began His work of Grace in my life and convicted me of being a wretched sinner one of the main truths that was forever impressed upon me is that I was not only worthy of eternal punishment but indeed heading for the everlasting fires of His good wrath. Yes I say good because He is good and I was evil hence His wrath. And I by the Holy Spirits illumination knew this to be true for. I actually knew that I soo deserved an eternall dwelling place in Hell that I didn't understand quite at first how God could be just in saving me from it. But praise be to God for Jesus Christ in and through whom God can justify the wicked who repent and believe.

Lysa,

I am just encouraging diligent Bible studies. Some of us simply believe the teachings of men without searching the scriptures. Believe it or not, i had to give up somethings i believed as well when i was provided with scriptures that clearly disproved what i believed..And these where things i had believed for a while. But you know sometimes as people, we can go as far as shutting our minds from hearing or learning anything else from what think is true. I respect everyone who has arrived at a believe as a result of diligent Bible studies and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Those who simply believe the "teachings of man" and do not spend time in the word..i will tell you to start getting in the word. May the Lord help us all to arrive at the truth. Also, if you think i am up to something..all i can say is that you are entitled to your own opinions. take care

PS: I test every doctrine regardless of the denomination, even my own. Too many false teachers..can't take a risk. I must study the word on my own.

therick,

Thanks for sharing what you think but lets use scripture.

Hi kwamenat...

Believe it or not, some of us were atheists before we came to believe. When I came to Christ, I didn't believe ANYTHING that I had ever been taught -- because I just never put much trust in the ideas of men. I wasn't sure that there was a Heaven or Hell. There were plenty of things that I questioned. In fact, I had even heard people who belonged to particular sects (like the Seventh Day Adventists) who taught that there is no eternal punishment outside of some notion about a final "annihilation."

Ultimately through much prayer and study, I have NEVER seen anything in Scripture to ever make me think that there is no everlasting punishment. When I read through your argument, I see nothing that makes me think that your opinion is true. The vast weight of New Testament teaching expresses the everlasting extent of the punishment that was originally prepared for the devil and his angels.

It is fine for you to share what you think from your particular select group of Scriptures. However, it just doesn't cause me to embrace your particular views when the Scriptures appear quite clear to most of us on this subject.

Chris,

I respect your response because you said you have diligently searched the scriptures and have arrived at what you believe. Even though one of us is right we have both studied and have scriptures to back up what we believe..take care bro

PS: to tell you the truth, this topic is not even discuss much amongst Seventh-day Adventist. I just started studying in depth on the issue not long ago.

Another thing sects do is to take words out of context. For example: they would say: If this word has a certain meaning in this verse, then it must have the same meaning in this other verse, thus defying all logic and reasoning.

they forget that the Bible contains hyperbole, figurative speach,...

But the bible does not work that way.
For example take the verse in Isaiah 65:2
2I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts;

and 1 kings 19:8
8And he arose, and did eat and drink, and went in the strength of that meat forty days and forty nights unto Horeb the mount of God.

They would say that the word " day " in Isiah must have the meaning " Day light or about 14-16 hours " because that is the meaning of the word in 1 kings.

unfortunatly, that is what kwamenat did with the word" perishing". He said : ' since the word in Ps 37:20 means to die, then it must mean the same in the after life thus giving the word the meaning of annihilation.

In Ps 37 the author is talking about the fact that the wicked with perish no matter how much he may seem to prosper and grow.

20But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

35I have seen the wicked in great power, and spreading himself like a green bay tree.

36Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found.

The Psalm is simply stating the fact that the wicked will one day go to the grave and not not be seen any more. The Psalm says nothing of judgment after death because the latter involves the soul which will never perish.

Sad to say, with such falty arguments people have done much harm to the Scriptures just because they decided to forsake simple reasoning.

kwamenat, all the verses you mantioned have problems with them and will be willing to discuss them with you later.

Hi kwamenat...

I respect your response because you said you have diligently searched the scriptures and have arrived at what you believe. Even though one of us is right we have both studied and have scriptures to back up what we believe..take care bro

To be just a bit more clear: I didn't study this issue to particularly arrive to an opinion one way or the other. When I met the Lord, I prayerfully and eagerly dove into the Word of God with the greatest of sincerity. I had passed from being an atheist, so I didn't have words from any particular or sectarian pastor, teacher or even parents to influence my views on such things.

Consequently, I never saw ANYTHING in the Word of God that would have made me assume that "everlasting punishment" (Matthew 25:46) was akin to complete and utter annihilation. It seems to me that it takes quite a bit of selective "reading between the lines" and "connecting dots" for anyone to even remotely suggest such a thing -- because the Scriptures seem quite clear of this.

PS: to tell you the truth, this topic is not even discuss much amongst Seventh-day Adventist. I just started studying in depth on the issue not long ago.

Interesting, because "conditional immortality" seems quite "fundamental" for most of the Seventh Day Adventists that I have met. Then again, there are quite a few peculiar Seventh Day Adventist doctrines that I disagree with...and the SDAs that I have spoken with actually felt that they were the only "remnant" who would make it to eternity.

Now, you said that you weren't influenced by the "teaching of man" in your study of this particular issue. Do you mind telling me if you had EVER spoken with a Seventh Day Adventist adherent or listened to a Seventh Day Adventist teaching (i.e. "teaching of man") about this topic BEFORE you arrived to your own particular interpretation?

The Psalm is simply stating the fact that the wicked will one day go to the grave and not not be seen any more. The Psalm says nothing of judgment after death because the latter involves the soul which will never perish

I agree with you but how do you explain the part in Psalms 37 that states that into SMOKE shall they consume AWAY or you just going to ignore that?

Also, you states it is the soul which will never perish but the wicked will one day go to the grave and not be seen any more...I am puzzled? Can you elaborate..

Chris,

When I stated that the discussion is not much discussed amongst Seventh-day Adventist, I was referring to my own personal experience. I haven't heard much discussion about this issue at the African Seventh-day Adventist Church I attend. Perhaps maybe its just this particular church but it wasn't talked about much. As a matter fact I don't think many of them can give scriptures for where the church stand on this issue which is sad. But then again most christians can't explain with scripture many of the things their church teaches. That is why I have started to test everything. I cannot simply say i believe everything a church believes, I am responsible as a Christian to study the word diligently and test all doctrine.

Though I am an adventist I listen to the preachings of lots of non-adventist preachers like Eric Ludy, K.P Yohannan, Piper, Ravenhill (one of the most godly man i know)

Not long ago i was talking to one of my closest friend who is also an adventist and for some reason we ended up talking about the issue concerning eternal torment for the wicked because i think someone who was studying with brought it up. Personally, I had not studied much into it even though i remember some texts that talks about lake of fire and unquenchable fire, etc. Before I went into the word i decided to see the various view on the issue. i googled something like eternal hell fire and read through the links that came up and it just happened that one of the links was by amazing facts which is an organization under S.D.A. But i did not listen to a sermon or speak to someone about it. I just read the link i saw but i read lots of other stuff online and watched youtube videos about the issue because i didn't want to be bias.

This was around the same time i posted the question about hell fire to see if i can gather more info but it was not long that the spirit revealed to me that this teaching cannot be true because God is love and will never allow this. He cannot stand sin and has given everyone the chance to turn away fro sin and be saved. And just because he has given all a chance to be save by giving up His only begotten Son,Jesus, does not mean that eternal tormenting is o.k now. Regardless of the sins committed and the amount of mercy God gives, eternal torment is contrary to the loving God I know. Then it became evident to me that there are more scriptures that disprove tormenting than there are that supports it.

After much studies i am becoming confident everyday that there is no such thing as an eternal torment. Now you know my background and where i am coming from. Also when i looked at the statement of faith for this website it didn't mention anything about hell fire. Plus it said it is an intra-denominational ministry with 100"s different denominational so i didn't see a problem with posting some questions to see other christian views on some issues. That is why initially i felt surprised that i was been attacked because of my denomination cause someone asked if i am trying to pass on adventist doctrines to which i replied that it is a shame that because of my denomination i cannot be part of a christian forum. Anyways now you know more about where i am coming from.

Also I found it real hard to believe the side that Ravenhill takes cause I respect him so much. That has challenged me to search even more but I just can't gather enough text to fully back this thing up. Clearly, there are more texts against the issue than for it. Also, the Spirit is telling me that God will not do something like this. For Christ said the Spirit will lead us to all truth. That is why i said i cannot blame you if you have come to a conclusion based on authentic searching and prayers for the truth concerning this issue because ultimately we have to listen to the Spirit.

I am not saying the teaching of man is wrong but we must test everything by diligent studying of the Word before we come to a conclusion.

Brother in Christ,
Nate

Brother Nate I appreciated your hunger for the truth, I also appreciate your heart for testing the Spirits and reading the Word.

You said "Regardless of the sins committed and the amount of mercy God gives, eternal torment is contrary to the loving God I know."

Love is just one of the many attributes of God, He has others that are Infinite in nature according to His Good Will. I understand you are an adventist and from my experience with people that hold a denominational stance they tend to read the scriptures with that kind of lens as they read scriptures, this can lead to many errors such as ignoring keys scriptures to back up your denominational stance. I was once the same way but only until I started reading scripture for what they were and ignoring what I was commonly taught as absolute truth did I ever actually learn anything from my readings.

One of the Attributes of God is Holiness God is perfectly and utterly Holy and with out Sin or Blemish, We find in Revelations the Angels before Him Cry HE IS HOLY HOLY HOLY. Noticed they are saying God is Love love love or mercy, mercy, mercy. This is to point out that God's main attribute is infact His Holiness.

God is also Just meaning when you break His Law, He will has to punish you for this law you have broken. God being eternal when sinned against is an Eternal offense and deserving of Eternal Punishment. God infacts delights in His Justice taking delight in crushing His Only Begotten as described in Isaiah 53:10 "But the LORD was pleased
To crush Him, putting Him to grief;If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring,He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand."

Through Christ Alone are we offered Mercy and Love IF we repent (turn to God) and Believe in the Christ as our LORD and SAVIOUR. That is the importance of Christ His sacrifice was Eternal FOR an Eternal Wrath and Punishment.

God showed His love through His Son so we could escape the wrath to come, but God is also Infinitely Holy and Just all in the same and will act accordinly. God's wrath will be poured out for an eternity on those that do not repent and trust in Christ and it will be fully Justified and Correct for Him to do so for all Eternity.

God Bless,
Matthew

God does not change and within His Laws there was never any "endless torture" as a form of punishment for any trespass against man or God. For that matter torture without end was never the dominating view taught in the church until somewhere around 400 AD that later was fully implemented with the Roman church. Naturally with the Protestant churches being nothing more than a trickle down result of the RC church, they hold dear some of the main doctrines of which endless to torture is one of.

However to teach that there are people burning in some sort of literal hell who never heard of the name of Jesus is about as morbid and immoral as it gets and God is neither of those.

To the evangelical church fire from God on them is a good purifying fire while on everyone else it is for punishment....... LOL ......how convenient for the church and no wonder that much of the world holds the church in contempt of all that is fair and good.

For sure the church does not teach that David spent time in hell as well as acknowledge that both heaven and hell contained the presence of God. However the scriptures teach otherwise.

2 Samuel 22:6
The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;

Psalm 116:3
The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow.

Psalm 139:8
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

I am not going to get into a big thing on translations of words from the original text because there are plenty of books on the subject that show how the word for eternal "aiōnios" originally meant the "fullness of an age' that when you consider along with the words of Jesus shed light that the punishment fits the crime and that the sentence will be fulfilled to the letter. The passage below shows how God's Law for punishment works in the next life just as it did 1500 years earlier in the law given to Moses.

Here we have someone coming to worship but has sinned against another person........ Jesus tell them to first go make amends and then come back to worship him or pay the price.

Matt 5: 24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.

26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

On the other hand the Law decreed that even when there could not ever be a satisfactory payment for one's trespass against another person, all "trespassers" were set free every Jubilee. (other than death sentences that were already carried out)

It is not the case that "hell" does not exist but what "hell" is and what it's real purpose is that eludes those who make claims to know about the things of God when the truth is they still have a lot to learn.

Jesus makes it very clear that we are to live by EVERY WORD THAT COMES FROM GOD AND NOT JUST "IN CONTEXT"

Unfortunately because Christians as a whole limit their knowledge strictly to "keeping in context only" thus disobeying the commandments of Jesus to always live by every word that comes from God, most of the truth of the scriptures eludes them. One must lean how to "rightly divide the word" by comparing spirit with spirit (word with the word) , line upon line and precept upon precept if they hope to ever move beyond being a mere babe in Christ and become a "father" as John called the early elders that were taught by the Apostles.

On the other hand many Universalist are just as guilty as the evangelical church for their lack of knowledge of eternal judgment that is one of the required foundational doctrines that Christians need to learn. I have heard many Universalist teach that Hitler went straight to heaven and I find that doctrine just as repulsive as the evangelical doctrine of people who never heard of Jesus burning in hell

No wonder God speaks hopefully of the day of when mankind will lean how to use His Word as He intended it to be used so that knowledge of the truth will increased. For that purpose alone there is a thread here titled "The Law as our Schoolteacher" that is a good start on how a person can learn the truth straight from God and once and forever cleanse the mind of all the teachings of man that have ruled the church ever since the lat Apostle was "taken out of the way"

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=36904&forum=36&0

Blessings

Doug

Edit...... corrected where the above link is found as well as added the link

"Jesus makes it very clear that we are to live by EVERY WORD THAT COMES FROM GOD AND NOT JUST "IN CONTEXT""

Brother I am not sure where you come up with this kind of stuff, when it comes to interpreting the Message Context is one of the most important factors. Without Context I can make God's Word say whatever I want it to say just as you can do the same. If you aren't reading the bible in its Context then it would explain why so many disagree with you. Would you like it if I took your very words and used them to make it appear you said something completely different? Do you really think God enjoys the same?

Brother I am not sure where you come up with this kind of stuff, when it comes to interpreting the Message Context is one of the most important factors. Without Context I can make God's Word say whatever I want it to say just as you can do the same. If you aren't reading the bible in its Context then it would explain why so many disagree with you. Would you like it if I took your very words and used them to make it appear you said something completely different? Do you really think God enjoys the same?

The Bible NEVER tells you to keep things in context and you do not have one single scripture to support your position.

On the other hand Paul and the other Apostles all taught just as I do and you may find plenty of scriptural reference to that here....... https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=36904&forum=36&0

Meanwhile and as I have already said you have absolutely no scripture to back you. I am not saying that there is nothing to learn by studying in context as long as you still remember to "live by every word" and learn to study in accordance with how the Apostles taught.

However if this something you wish to argue please do so at the above link so that this thread will not get hijacked

Fair enough?

Doug

I actually have many scriptures to back up reading in Context. Satan quoted scripture many times all out of context to the rest of Scripture. On top of the many scriptures that tell us to not bear a false witness or Lie, taking something out of context is doing both of these things. Its half the truth or partial truth. I have no desire to even discuss this with you let alone argue it with you, from my experience in this it won't produce edify discussion for either of us.

Why is it that you say that you have scripture but then you cannot come up with any?........ if you have it prove it or just admit the truth........ fair enough?

I have heard lot of people say they have scripture that say for us to always keep the scriptures in context however they can never come up with anything conequently they remain ignorant to the truth.

God gave us a way to find the truth but by you and others applying middle school learning technique to the Holy Word of God, are at the very best being deceived yourselves however in all likelihood you are deceiving others and keeping babes in Christ from learning the truth.

Now I have asked you to please not hijack this thread from the OP and if you have a valid point on the topic of "keeping in context" that is supported with scripture please present it here...... https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=36904&forum=36&0

Fair enough?

Doug

I think it's time to put this topic to rest.

I would remind the annihilationists that this forum is fundamentally evangelical, and therefore holds to a literal interpretation of scripture in this realm. Any stance opposite of this is seen as error, and therefore not endorsed of God nor backed by His authority. The Lord has entrusted us with the truth, no matter how controversial it may appear to the logic of polluted man; we aim to preserve this truth on SermonIndex.

in the future, we ask that you please take this types of debates elsewhere. The literalness of eternal hellfire should be a topic not open for debate, unless one has come here with a cultistic agenda in mind. Our stances on agendas are made clear in the forum guidleline thread. Thank you for understanding.

Brother Paul