Baptism of the Holy Spirit

How did you receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit?

Jesus said " If we being evil know how to give good gifts to our children, How much more will the Heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask?

Ask without fear. He knows we desperately need the Holy Spirit and you will receive what you ask for.

Ruf

Greg, excellent word!!! Russ

After I was converted, someone said, "Now when are you going to get the Holy Ghost?" I went home and got into my bible to see what in the world they were talking about and I read and studied every instance of the words, Holy Spirit, Holy Ghost, Spirit, tongues, gifts, etc and then asked God my Father for his Spirit. And something a woman said while preaching caught my attention, she said just what rufnrust said but she added, "Christmas is coming, if you want something from the Lord, ask Him. He gives gifts too!!!" So I did!

I was so bummed when Dec 25th came and went. Then a bunch of us from the church got together at someone's house and after dinner began worshiping the Lord. And there dressed in jeans, tee-shirt under a flannel shirt with tennis shoes (but it was 1978!) with arms raised on Dec 29th, I received the baptism of the Holy Spirit!

God is good!!

Lisa

I agree with Greg: There are no shortcuts.

Often, I have found people who claim to be baptized with the Holy Spirit, but who seem incapable to live holy lives... there's a problem. Often, people will claim to be baptized with the Holy Spirit because they act strangely, actions that bear the mark of a counterfeit spirit.

We should always seek a greater closeness with the Lord Jesus Christ, and hence with His Spirit. The two go together. Bypassing one or the other is impossible.

Beware, many have been deceived. Someone can pray for power and excitement, and then receive something that looks like it... only it isn't from God. It turns out they didn't care to seek God in His Word, or seek His face in Christ Jesus, but wanted something else. In fact, the spirit they receive often will make them do things that contradict what is revealed about the Holy Spirit in the Bible, but they will dismiss this on the basis that "you can't limit God or put Him in a box".

Remember, God has spoken to us. Do you understand what that means? You want to know Him and be filled with the Spirit? Meditate on His Word! His Word is living and active. His Word revives the soul. His Word washes us. His Word has power. His Word is divine.

Meditate on His Word, and seek His face. Seek to understand His Word. Seek to be transformed by His Word. Seek to be soaked in His Word. Seek to know the mind of God. Seek to be conformed to His Word. Then, I guarantee you, that the Spirit of Christ will be so present in your life, that you will find no need for another kind of spiritual experience, because His Word and His Spirit will lead you into the power of a sanctified life of obedience.

Renoncer

God is more concerned with our maturity to handle blessings from Him then the actual giving of His gifts and Spirit.

God looks for this, I believe, and every year He shapes and forms us more and more to this image: that is, the gradual abandonment of self and all of its valor and potential with a divine and permament realignment instead to Christ and His imputed majesties. If you really boil it down, the reason we want the Spirit Baptism and gifts and power is to promote self. Cut away all the spiritual window-dressing and you'll see it to be true. We want to be used, we want God's power, we want to bring people into Kingdom of God and we want to be acknowldged in some shape of form for it. Nobody will admit this, but in your heart you know it to be somewhat true. If not here on earth, then we certainly want to be acknowldged at the Judgment during the dispensation of crowns. Any way you slice it - in one way or another - we want to promote self, for this is at the core of our Adamic nature as autonomous beings.

I believe it is God's aim to obliterate this polluted passion in us, and cause us to see that any gain or merit perferred upon us here or in eternity is from Christ's own treasury and given to us soley upon the basis of grace and mercy. It is when we come this understanding, this acceptance, that God can begin to make powerful headway with us, and entrust unto us His choicest gifts.

I clearly did receive him soon after conversion, but for many years I confined him to a backseat in my life. Now I understand that only submission to Christ in everything grants us his blessings.

Listened to this sermon that may help.

The Persistent Purpose Of God - T. Austin-Sparks
http://media.sermonindex.net/1/SID1190.mp3

He goes over Ez 47 and Acts 2.

"God will not commit Himself, where there is not righteous judgment."

"When the glorifying of Jesus is our only object, then God will come in with His Spirit"

"Our authority must get out of God's way, and God waits for that before He commits Himself."

"God will commit Himself where the cross governs everything!"

Anyways, there are many good valuable truths in this!

Ecclesiastes 8:4
Where the word of a king is, there is power; And who may say to him, “What are you doing?”

I would contribute by saying seek God through intense prayer and study of his word. Dont look for a mystical experience as this leads to deception. Remember he said "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst after righteousness for they shall be filled" hungry and thirsty people have a greater capacity to receive.

Get hungry and get filled

Who is the giver of the Holy Spirit?

John 14:16-17 And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth Him not, neither knoweth Him: but ye know Him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

What day does Jesus Come into believers?

John 14:18-20 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

"I in you", The born again expierence.

Why do we receive the Holy Spirit?

John 14:26-27 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

We cannot have peace or understand the things of God unless we are born again and have the Holy Spirit.

This is the reason we receive the Holy Spirit;

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, He shall testify of Me:

Christ had to return to the Father so the Holy Spirit could come;

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Without Christ' new birth in us we have no need of the Holy Spirit. Without the Holy Spirit we cannot know Christ, They must come fully at the same time. Christ is the gifted One, The Holy Spirit is the One that gives us power to use Christs' gifts, as The Holy Spirit wills, just as The Holy Spirit did in Christ.

Jesus had many things to say even to the apostles, as He says to us now through the Holy Spirit, He and the Father are One as is the Holy Spirit One in all and in all.

John 16:8-12 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

This is the fullness of what Christ did on the Cross that we have Christ in us "the hope of Glory", Col 1:27=29, This is our perfection.

John sums it up in this; 1 John 5:1-15 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.

Paul finishes it with this, and in all his epistles, he speaks 146 times, "IN CHRIST"; Colossians 1:26-28 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Ephesians 1:3-12 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

IN CHRIST: Phillip

Christinyou,

Very good post. Indeed, until the day of Pentecost, the Holy Spirit had not been sent in fullness with power (although Jesus' disciples had experienced Him in some measure), so that many who had received the "baptism of repentance" since the days of John the Baptist and Jesus' ministry until the day of Pentecost had yet to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which would testify of Christ. However, the day of Pentecost marked a new era, where those who received Christ would now be baptized with the Holy Spirit, by which they would be included in the body of Christ.

For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--Jews or Greeks, slaves or free--and all were made to drink of one Spirit.
(1 Corinthians 12:12-13)

Therefore, since the day of Pentecost, those who are included in the body of Christ are also baptized with the Holy Spirit. Those who belong to God are led by His Spirit. Indeed, we are saved through the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

Therefore, the command to be filled with the Holy Spirit is an exhortation to draw near to God through Jesus Christ, for there is no other way to experience God. And if we seek a special experience of power apart from Christ, this can only be another spirit.

I have a quetion. Do you have to go to a pentecostal church. All the people I fellowship with are cessasionists and I feel alone in this. I prayed for the Holy Spirit many times but have not recived Him. As far as I know my motives are right. What is lacking?

Appolus,
When did these people first believe? Before Pentecost. Look at the context. Namely, they speak about John's baptism.

And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" They said, "Into John's baptism." And Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus." On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
(Acts 19:3-5)

Thank you Frank, and approved. I will continue to seek the Lord both before and after the Holy Spirit baptism, till I leave this earth. So help me God.

Appolus,
Of course, you must look at the whole context. You must also look at the context theologically. What is going on in the history of God's dispensation of his grace?

In the book of Acts, we witness the beginning of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit (i.e., baptism of the Holy Spirit), to all who believe. That is why those who had received John's baptism were now receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit. However, thence forth, there was no more of "John's baptism", or even the baptism of repentance in Jesus' name apart from the dispensation of the Holy Spirit. Thence forth, those who believed were to be baptized by the Holy Spirit. There is a difference between the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" and the command to be "filled with the Spirit". That is why Paul emphasizes the importance of being baptized with the Holy Spirit at the beginning of this dispensation, whereas he later expresses that by the Spirit we were ALL BAPTIZED (1Corinthians 12:13) into one body, that is, the body of Christ. Furthermore, the later command to be filled with the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 5:18) is in the light of the dispensation of the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

We must understand the theological context, or else we can make dangerous mistakes, which stem from erroneous assumptions. In fact, if we seek a second experience apart from Jesus Christ, we are treading dangerous waters. This may lead us to look down on other believers, thinking that we are better and more righteous because we have attained a higher level of spirituality. This may lead us to downplay the work of Christ and His sufficiency. This may lead us to seek excitement rather than humbled obedience. This may lead us to seek something else, thinking that Christ is not enough.

As such, we must carefully examine the implications of our doctrines, because they may lead us where we don't expect or even desire to go.

Appolos wrote; Quote

"Joh 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Joh 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

This is obviously prior to Pentecost. Jesus then says......

Act 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
Act 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

And the purpose of this pentecost? This baptism?........"

Prior to Pentecost, obviously a continued promise that the Holy Spirit would come as the Comforter.

The purpose of their Pentecost in the upper room, to receive the promise and power. Most of all the Spirit of Christ in them could not come back until He had ascended to the Father and the Spirit of Christ be birthed in them also at Pentecost.

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you (((((another Comforter,))))) that he may abide with you for ever;

The "another Comforter", is not Christ.

John 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Jesus Christ is our Comforter, our number One, our Life.

John 14:19-20 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

"I in you", Do we see Him, has He come in the flesh of men, the Spirit of Christ in you the hope of Glory. If not we are none of His.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Jesus is Life, the Holy Spirit is the power of that life and Parakleet, of our soul/minds to renew our minds to the Mind of Christ.

This is where the Holy Spirit works, "our minds". The Holy Spirit also works the gifts of the Gifted One, Jesus Christ, as He wills.

1 Corinthians 12:3-7 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same ((((Spirit.)))) And there are differences of administrations, but the same ((((Lord.)))) And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

1 Corinthians 12:11-13 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

The One Spirit giving Life in Christ, Spirit, The One Spirit giving understanding to our Soul/mind. Separate only in Their works.

Life=Spirit of Christ, Understanding that Life=Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit did not shed His Blood. Only Christ hang on the Cross, forsaken of all.

Life in Christ, Life in the Spirit; Amen

In Christ: Phillip

1 John 5:11-12 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Why this?

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

by appolus on 2011/1/20 13:48:49

Hi renouncer, you write this .....

"When did these people first believe? Before Pentecost. Look at the context. Namely, they speak about John's baptism."

Is that not what I wrote brother and give the Scripture?
And the answer of course is that when they heard what Paul said ......

Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
You just cannot ignore verse 6 brother.........brother Frank

Hello Brother Frank,

Also...

Acts 8:14-17 (King James Version)

14Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

15Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

16(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

17Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

~~~

As you can see by the above scriptures, a person can come to repentance before God, believe in Jesus Christ, and even be water baptized in Jesus name, and still HAVE NOT received the Holy Ghost...it is separate from conversion. So according to this scripture, you do not automatically receive the Holy Ghost at conversion like some teach.

As you can see by the above scriptures, a person can come to repentance before God, believe in Jesus Christ, and even be water baptized in Jesus name, and still HAVE NOT received the Holy Ghost...it is separate from conversion. So according to this scripture, you do not automatically receive the Holy Ghost at conversion like some teach.

There is a difference between "receiving" the Holy Spirit and being "baptized" in the Holy Spirit, is there not??

Jn 20:22,23 The disciples first received the Holy Spirit for forgiveness of sins(v 23). Then in Acts 2 were baptized in the Holy Spirit.

I have shared this before in another thread, but it is appropriate here as well.

It is of the utmost importance that we keep our hearts right before God, but how do we do that? (just decide in your heart that you will just love Him no matter what) Is it in what we say, or what we do, or both? A heart that is right before God submits to obedience, which is the essence of a pure heart. ...but obedience to what?

Take a look at Christianity today; it is not as it was. We have failed the grace of God, and the provision He has made for us to rule over sin in our lives. We have failed to access His power for godly living, which brings true joy and happiness, not sorrow and sadness, and suffering with no joy. But there is true joy in communion and fellowship with the Holy Ghost whom he has given to us.

Instead, we have entertainment today in the church, because we have no true joy, and as one preacher put it, entertainment is the devils substitute for joy. We have become slaves to decadence, with a sense of privilege, and an overindulging (self-indulging) of the senses.

Look at the reasons why people indulge the flesh in the first place, is it not to fill something that is lacking in the soul? Is it not to make one feel better, to give one a sense of well-being, of fulfillment? Is it not to give one a sense of joy and happiness and completeness? Is this not the reason why people drink to get drunk and indulge in ALL of the senses of the body, to numb, to make one feel better, and to give us joy?

I believe The Apostle Paul teaches us that God can and will give us all joy and fulfillment in our souls that we need. Be filled the Holy Spirit who completes us, and no longer indulge the senses of the flesh to do this.

Ephesians 5:18 (New King James Version)

And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit,

I believe what the Apostle is saying is:

Instead of getting drunk with wine and indulging the senses, rather to be filled with the Holy Spirit who completes us. The Apostle Paul was not likening the infilling of the Holy Ghost with drunkenness or being drunk, but rather a turning away from the works of darkness, which is in the indulging the senses with sinful practices and uncleanness before God, and to rather be filled with the Holy Ghost who completes us, and fills that void in our souls. Has not the Lord Jesus said: "but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.” John 4:14

In the beginning I believe Adam walked with God, where his body was filled with God's Holy Spirit - there was a communion there. God's Holy Spirit filled a part of Adam that completed him (Shekinah) and made him unique in creation, which made him the living temple of God.

Adam lost this when he, through transgression, fell. The Shekinah Glory of God lifted from Adam, the same way that the Shekinah Glory of God lifted from the Jewish Temple (the physical one before it was destroyed in 70 AD).

Since the fall of Adam, our race has sought to fill “that missing part” that incompleteness in us, by indulging in the senses of the flesh (which God has called sin). And without the Light of God (the Holy Spirit, who was, and now is the majestic presence or manifestation of God in man) man would grow exceeding dark and sinful (which is what happened), for without light, there can only be darkness…and if the light of your eye is darkness, then how great the darkness.

...but we are no longer in darkness (that is to say without the Holy Ghost), that we should indulge the senses of the body with all manner of sins and uncleanness.

Ephesians 5:8 " For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light"

This indwelling Shekinah presence of God in His temple is something that was always meant for man, we were created for this purpose - we are (that is our bodies) "living temples" of the Holy Spirit of God.

Now consider the Jewish nation how strict and how hard God was with them when they sinned. Example:

1 Corinthians 10
1 For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 and were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 and did all eat the same spiritual food;
4 and did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of a spiritual rock that followed them: and the rock was Christ.
5 Howbeit with most of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
9 Neither let us make trial of the Lord, as some of them made trial, and perished by the serpents.
10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them murmured, and perished by the destroyer.
11 Now these things happened unto them by way of example; and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come.
12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Now consider that they DID NOT have the Holy Spirit who gives power for Godly living.

John 7:39
39 But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believed on him were to receive: for the Spirit was not yet given; because Jesus was not yet glorified.

How much worse judgment do you suppose will be to us to whom the Holy Spirit has been given?

The Church received power for Godly living and testimony on Pentecost - and it is through the righteousness and grace of God that the free gift of the Holy Spirit is given, even to us, who through obedience to the faith in Christ Jesus are made righteous by His shed blood...in that He took away our sins, and in the absence of sin, the righteous requirements of the law are fulfilled; therefore, the Holy Spirit could come. It was not until Jesus Christ had ascended to the Father, after His resurrection, that the Holy Ghost could be given - which is the promise of the free gift.

An understanding given by the Lord Jesus Christ to me:

The power of sin is in the Law (as delivered to Moses), and the wages of sin is death...for through the Law, I have knowledge of sin and sinned revived and I died. (This is the Law of sin and death)

But the law has no power over me anymore...and why does it have no power over me?

... it is because I have no sin...and because I have no sin, I am not under the law.

If I had sin, the law would have power over me, and I would be under the law, but now I have no sin and am therefore not under the law.

Is this a heresy? No it is not, let me explain.

I have no sins because of the Blood of the Lamb ...that Jesus took my sins away and nailed them to the cross (I am crucified with Christ). When God looks at me, He sees only the blood of the Lamb applied to the door posts, not my sins. (This is the sinless perfection I am referring to) God sees no sins through the blood of the Lamb! Now, is the blood applied to the doorposts? ...this is what should be asked about.

I am not saying that I have obtained sinless perfection in the flesh, or cannot be tempted to sin, or that I am sin free and without fault in my life, I have many faults...I am saying that only through the cross of Christ I have no sin, because Jesus took them away with His death.

Whether you accept this or not, this is sinless perfection! ...yet not by works of the flesh, but only through faith in Jesus Christ. (righteousness by faith) This is not so hard to understand. So I then, fulfill the law of God by being sinless, just as He commands, yet not by works, but by faith in the cross of Jesus Christ to forever remove my sins – righteousness by faith and not by works.

But righteousness by faith came for a purpose...even a new creation, which God has through the Holy Ghost birthed in me. Just as it is written: I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

When we consider how God judged the Jewish nation because of sin, how shall WE escape if we neglect so great a salvation?

And this is why the Holy Ghost could be given freely to us:

"Where there is no sin, the Law of God cannot condemn, but is fulfilled."

Jesus Christ, with His own blood entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption for us. It was not until sin was removed (through the cross of Christ), and the righteous requirements of the law were fulfilled (absence of sin), that the Holy Spirit could come, who wrote the laws of God on our hearts rather than on tablets of stone...even as it is written "I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds."

It is a common statement with Christianity of today that we have to live with the so called "sinful nature" in this life as long as we live, that we have no power over it for godly living. And indeed, this is the definitely the case when someone does not have the Holy Ghost.

And this is the doctrine of the Nicolaitans (as revealed to me by the Holy Ghost): and that is to say it is okay to sin because I am under grace, and because Jesus took away my sins, and where sin abounds, God’s grace much more abounds, and therefore it is okay to sin in the flesh, because through faith in Jesus my sins are washed away anyway, so why not just allow sin and don’t worry about godliness too much seeing how that Jesus took away my sins. Go ahead and indulge the senses of the flesh, the sins are all paid for anyway – so go ahead and eat, drink and be merry.

Much of what the Holy Ghost had revealed to the early church through the Apostle Paul was truly taken out of context. This satanic attack, this doctrine of the Nicolaitans, permeated the early Church so much so that the Apostles had to address it in letters – see here:

The Apostle Paul had written:

Romans 3:8
8And why not say (as we are slanderously reported and as some claim that we say), "Let us do evil that good may come"? Their condemnation is just.

The Apostle Peter wrote:

2 Peter 3:15-16 (New King James Version)
15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

James also wrote:
James 2:20
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?

Our Lord Jesus through the Apostle John wrote:
Revelation 2:14-17
14 But I have a few things against you, because you have there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit sexual immorality. 15 Thus you also have those who hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. 16 Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth.
17 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches…

And this doctrine has filled much of today’s church as well, and is why judgment comes, and the clarion call to repentance is going out yet once again.

But God has given us power over sin, which is in the Blood of the Lamb!

Some teachers of Christianity today take the Apostle Paul's writing totally out of context when he stated:

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. Romans 7:18-20

...they read this as though we have to live with no power for Godly living.

But the Apostle was referring to life "before" the Holy Ghost was given.

And they miss what he says next in his line of thought, and teaching which is:

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh (because we could not keep the law through the flesh because we did not have power for Godly living), God (did) (by)sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh (took away the sins - so that power for holy living could be given by the Holy Ghost who lives in us):

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us (absence of sin through the blood of Christ), who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Romans 8:3-4

For if you live according to the flesh (For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do) you will die; but if by the (Holy)Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body (power for righteous and holy living), you will live. Rom 8:13 (parenthesis emphasis above is mine)

And this is why, I believe, judgment comes. ...because we have neglected so great a salvation...which is the God life in us through His Holy Spirit.

There is a worldliness, a sensuality, a carnality, an all is well in our sinful state that has infiltrated the church of Jesus Christ, and has caused it to go to sleep.

But I cannot refer to the judgment of God without referring to His great and tender mercies for humanity (of whom I am the largest recipient of His grace)...because as it is written God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

And I am not talking about sinless perfection (in this life) here (we still have to deal with Eph 6:12 on a daily basis which is NOT the sinful nature), but they will be taken out of the way soon enough as per: Revelation 12:7-10

... but I am referring to the way into the Holiest of All, the very presence of God (the Holy Ghost in us) - the Divine life, which God in his mercy has freely given to us (the embryo or seed of God in us) the God life, the new creation, the new birth, the new man.

1 Corinthians 15:47-49 (New King James Version)
47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man. (and the heavenly man was NOT sinful)

And this is why the judgment comes - a certain fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Because it is a sin to deny, or to refuse, or to not acknowledge the sanctifying life changing work of the Holy Ghost in us. (Having a form of Godliness, but denying the power for Godly living through cessationist doctrinal prose - no God life in them - the doctrine of the Nicolaitans).

Romans 8:9 (New King James Version)
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

We really need a true revival of the Holy Ghost...and we need a functioning body (Ephesians 4:11-13)

It is by God's grace and mercy alone that He gives us power for Godly living, power to overcome sin, power to become the glorious sons of God...by the indwelling Shekinah presence of God in His temple(our bodies).

John 1:12-13 (King James Version)

12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Earendel,
You quoted Acts 8:14-17 as though I hadn't addressed the issue. However, if you read carefully, you will find the answer has already been given. For simplicity sake, here it is again:

"You must also look at the context theologically. What is going on in the history of God's dispensation of his grace?

In the book of Acts, we witness the beginning of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit (i.e., baptism of the Holy Spirit), to all who believe. That is why those who had received John's baptism were now receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit. However, thence forth, there was no more of "John's baptism", or EVEN THE BAPTISM OF REPENTANCE IN JESUS' NAME APART FROM THE DISPENSATION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT (I should have written, "before the dispensation of the Holy Spirit"). Thence forth, those who believed were to be baptized by the Holy Spirit. There is a difference between the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" and the command to be "filled with the Spirit". That is why Paul emphasizes the importance of being baptized with the Holy Spirit at the beginning of this dispensation, whereas he later expresses that by the Spirit we were ALL BAPTIZED (1Corinthians 12:13) into one body, that is, the body of Christ. Furthermore, the later command to be filled with the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 5:18) is in the light of the dispensation of the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

We must understand the theological context, or else we can make dangerous mistakes, which stem from erroneous assumptions. In fact, if we seek a second experience apart from Jesus Christ, we are treading dangerous waters. This may lead us to look down on other believers, thinking that we are better and more righteous because we have attained a higher level of spirituality. This may lead us to downplay the work of Christ and His sufficiency. This may lead us to seek excitement rather than humbled obedience. This may lead us to seek something else, thinking that Christ is not enough.

As such, we must carefully examine the implications of our doctrines, because they may lead us where we don't expect or even desire to go."

I like what Tozer and Ravenhill used to always say: "There's never been anyone filled with the Spirit that didn't know when it happened."

A person knows whether they have been endued with power from on high or not. Its not just going around believing your filled, but seeking God til He fills you then knowing your filled.

Praise God for the promise of the Holy Spirit!

Renoncer,

This is a clip from “ The Shantung Revival“ that may end this debate for you.
.Please listen to the whole sermon if you can. The audio is a poor quality but it is worth the effort.

“Dr. Culpepper, share with us now the greatest story that have ever come to the history of Christendom, the revival that came to the shantung province of China.”

Dr.Culpepper:
“ In the early 20’s we felt that were up against an impossible situation, so many difficulties that I can’t go into detail in telling, but we had some older missionaries who knew how to pray. And so many of our hearts were turned to God. Some of the missionaries from other boards decided to go home. There was no hope in doing the work here but we decided to pray, and as we began to pray the Lord seem to lay on our hearts a deeper hunger for God himself so we prayed some more and we prayed for 4 years and as a result of this praying we got under a deeper conviction of sin and the deeper we got under conviction for sin we had to make restitution and make things right with each other and take out all the sins in our hearts and there were sins in our hearts that we didn’t’ even know were there , they were covered under the rubbish . As we prayed and continued to pray and there were several people who helped us a great deal among those Miss Marie Munson and she was a Norwegian Lutheran missionary. One day she asked me: ” Brother Culpeper, have you been filled with the Holy Spirit.” and I couldn’t tell her because I didn’t know what it really meant and from that day I began searching the Bible and a great hunger for the fullness of the Holy Spirit came upon me and it took four years to get all the rubbish and everything straitened before the Lord and other missionaries had the same impression, the same feeling and so the Lord worked with all of us missionaries in North China Missions at that time , about 50 of us. And so the lord worked through Miss Munson and others of a very sensitive nature and as a result we became possessed with the idea that we had to meet God. And some times we would pray for an hour, two hours, and some times, a few times we prayed all night. And finally we prayed and we invited her to come to the mission and she told me: “ Brother Culpepper, a great revival is coming and it is going to begin with the North China Mission. I said: “ Why you say that Miss Munson.” She said : “Because God has a covenant in his word that has never been broken since the time He gave it to Solomon , and she repeated 2 Chronicles 7:14, and she said : “If my people which are called by my name shall humble themselves and pray and seek my face And turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and will heal their land . And she said : “You people above all the people I have seen have done that ,you have humbled yourselves, you have confessed to each other made restitution , you pray and you seek God with all your heart, and the Bible says we will seek him and find him when we seek him with all our hearts. And we have become possessed with a desire, a great hunger like the Psalmist said in the 42nd Psalm: As the hart thirsts for the water brooks so panteth my soul for thee oh God. when shall I come and see thee? And God gave us this hunger and the assurance that he was going to satisfy. And 4 years from the time we really started seeking from all of our heats, God came down in mighty power and he began in in other provinces and we in Shantung were fearful that the Lord would pass us and were where the seminary was and where the schools were. So about 40 of us gathered to pray for a week and while we were praying I came under a deep conviction of the sin of not being filled with the Holy Spirit. That was the last spiritual conviction. I felt that God would almost kill me if I didn’t’ get that real understanding of the fullness of the Holy Spirit. And I got so desperate and prayed until 12 clock and finally I got my wife up and she got up and prayed with me so I got relieved and said; “ Lord, I will confess my neglect before all the people. They have bragged on me and have said that I am a fine missionary., doing good work , and I accepted the flattery and all.“ And I said : “I will confess tomorrow just how you showed me how sinful and hopeless I am. I am not worth a thing in the world. And so, when I confessed in the morning, the Lord did a wonderful thing and people stared confessing their sin falling on their knees. And that started and continued for 4 days and the house started to fill with people“…..…….( please listen to the rest of the sermon on this link)

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=652

We didn't have Him, we needed Him, we cannot get Him, only those to whom the Father sends Him can we be born again. New birth, Incorruptable Seed of our Father to give new life to those whom the Father sends, Jesus Christ, we a new creature that the world never saw until after He, Jesus Christ is birthed in believers, "Christ in you the Hope of Glory".

He it is that will baptize with and into the Holy Spirit.

The born again have Him, the Son and by Him the Holy Spirit.

His life is our life, we must put Him on, thus taking the Holy Spirit of Promise and stiring up the fire that has been put in us. Unstired coals go out, the fire gets higher when the coals are stired up, as we are to stirup the Holy Spirit that is in us.

He baptizes;

Mt 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Mr 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

Lu 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

Joh 1:26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not;

John 1:31-33 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water. And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

If we have Him, put Him on;

Ga 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

Col 3:14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

2Ti 1:6 Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands.

Paul is stiring the coals that keep the fire of the Holy Spirit burning in our hearts, let us stir up the fire that Jesus Christ may be seen in us and the World may know that the Father has sent Him.

In Christ: Phillip

by Renoncer on 2011/1/21 6:25:29
"You must also look at the context theologically.

Why not just take the bible at face value for what it says?

Okay, let's try this from a different version...

Acts 8:14-17 (New International Version, ©2010)

14 When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God,

(Obviously the Apostles knew that the gospel was not preached to them until AFTER the resurrection of Jesus Christ and that they accepted it)

they sent Peter and John to Samaria. 15 When they arrived, they prayed for the {{{new}}} believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16 because the Holy Spirit {{{had not yet come on any of them}}}; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

(You see they were [[[NEW]]] believers and repented,accepted the gospel of Jesus Christ and were baptized in Jesus name(not John's baptism) and yet the giving of the Holy Spirit was separate from this.

and what happens next?...

...well, read it====>

17 (((Then))) Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

There you have it, they received the Holy Ghost (((AFTER))) they were converted to Christianity and (((AFTER))) they were baptized in water in Jesus name. Conversion and acceptance of the gospel was (((NOT))) the receiving of the Holy Ghost, and neither is water baptism.

Case closed!

Now answer my question...

Are you a cessationist? And don't skirt the issue, just answer it. Yes or No.

I was kneeling at bed praying not asking for Holy Spirit and it came upon me. I really didnt do anything with the baptism until later on in life when I got real close to the Lord. Now I understand most of the gifts as I am sensitive to Holy Spirit. He has given me opportunities to use my gifts. Gifts that I didn't know I had. so you can receive the Holy spirit and not do anything with it

Are you a cessationist? And don't skirt the issue, just answer it. Yes or No.

by PaulWest on 2011/1/21 17:33:09

Are you a cessationist? And don't skirt the issue, just answer it. Yes or No.

You are reminded to play the ball and not the man. No one is in a position to demand an answer from anyone. This is not an inquisition.

Point taken, but the question is one that is very important to me, and I respectfully ask the question.

1 Peter 3:15

I believe in the operation of the gifts BUT I don't believe this should ever be the focus nor evidence of Baptism. I believe the Baptism is an immersion in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit ultimately is the very essense of God, which I see two main things Holiness and Love. So the Baptism is primarily One of Holiness and Love without these its not much of a move of God whether people are speaking in tongues, being healed, etc etc.

I am one that takes this stance because I grew up in a Pentecostal atmosphere where the gifts of the Spirit were large twisted and overemphasised while true biblical evidence is ignore ie the Fruit of the Spirit.

Point taken, but the question is one that is very important to me, and I respectfully ask the question.

This can almost always be avoided if we remember to remain humble and just accept the fact that others do not see things the way see them. This may be due to a number of factors, such as denominationalism, maturity level, etc. If you sense someone wants to debate you or prove you wrong, be the stronger believer and humbly conclude your portion of the discussion and just walk away. If you are correct, God will vindicate your words and use them to impact someone behind the scenes. But the one way to kill a discussion and make sure nobody is blessed is to seek out a confrontation to prove your stance is right and the other person is wrong.

Blessings to you

by Approved on 2011/1/21 17:56:53
Most everyone here have the basic fundamental foundational truths of the gospel.

Roman Catholics, Jehovah's Witness, Orthodxy, the prosperity preachers, some others as well all have ["some"] basic fundamental truths of the gospel as well.

I started in the Baptist church when I was 18, was baptized there Easter Sunday 1981. I remember one of the members (I am not sure if it was a deacon)after Sunday service, as we were on our way out the door, calling pentecostals the last vomit of satan. It was very offensive to me, and I did not understand why he would say that. This is before I understood what a cessationist was. To me, a cessationist is one who rejects the Holy Ghost's infilling, not just a rejection of the gifts. And speaking in tongues is NOT the only evidence of receiving the Holy Ghost (not all pentecostals will agree with me on that one). Not all Baptists are cessationists, many are very Godly and do not reject the gifts, I just want to make that point clear. This isn't just a denominational doctrinal stance I am talking about here, but the purest truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ in the most holiest sense. If there is any truth to what I am saying, may God show us all mercy and give us the Holy Ghost! I cannot be a Christian and live a Godly life without Him, no sir I just can't...I need Him.

Mr. Ravenhill preached about it...and understood what I am talking about:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BeO-iCqxvI

I understand. Asking pointed questions in this forum is a little bit different than asking them in person, face-to-face. If you're not careful with the wording, they can be interepreted as baited, or too abrupt, or give the impression that you're looking for a confrontation. Please keep this in mind.

Thanks for the kind word brother, I apologize if I seemed too abrupt. I am kind of looking forward to denominational borders and false gospels to come crashing down...it's coming you know. The time of the removal of the tares from the wheat - the chaff from the wheat is at hand...it's coming.

Concerning the coming days of Tribulation,

I like what David Wilkerson has to say:

There is simply no possible, failsafe way to prepare for what’s coming.

Of course, God will prepare His people concerning what to do, how to act wisely, and how to lay aside what is needed. But that should never be the focus of Christ’s Bride.

I assure you, if you’re making spiritual preparations – getting your heart in order, dealing with sin, calling on the Lord with greater intensity, trusting in His word, building up your faith – then your readying yourself for anything.

You’ll be able to face a depression, losses and privations, calamities all around. You’ll be ready for all troubled waters, floods, fiery furnaces, persecutions, crop failures, droughts, shortages, and sicknesses. But most of all, you’ll be ready to hear the trumpet of God in the last hour. You’ll be prepared to march into the wedding feast to be untied with Christ…

…I believe the covenant that God has made with us holds the secret to perfect peace, no matter what storm may come.

1 Corinthians 2:1-2 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

Galatians 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

I cannot glory in anything except "Christ in me the Hope of Glory". My only glory is the Christ in me by the Spirit of God the Holy Spirit and the Father with the Son making their abode with me.

"where the gifts of the Spirit were large twisted and overemphasised while true biblical evidence is ignore ie the Fruit of the Spirit. " As mguldner wrote;

Why? We have all left of first Love and need His attention to our spirit that we return in the Glory of His Love.

Hebrews 4:12-16 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

I am in that need daily, which I confess with my mouth to my brothers and sisters in Him.

1 Corinthians 2:9-10 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

In Christ: Phillip

I have left the forum one day, and I see that I have quite a few people asking me whether or not I am a cessationist!

Haha... No, I am not. Alive-to-God discerned correctly on this one.

As for the attacks on my person, I do not wish to reply. You have every right to attack me, because I am indeed weak, vile, sinful, unworthy... that is, in the flesh. Nevertheless, it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. Therefore, I can say, "The reproaches of those who reproached you fell on me".

May God bless you all.

As for the issue of the theological context, I think we should carefully consider its importance in order to correctly divide the Word of God.

For instance, please consider Jesus' words: "Can the wedding guests mourn as long as the bridegroom is with them? The days will come when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast" (Matthew 9:15).

Consider the implications of Jesus' words. At one point in time, Jesus' disciples shouldn't fast. At another point in time, Jesus' disciples should fast. Is it because God changed His mind? Of course not; it is because the context is different.

In the same way, there was a time in dispensational history when the Holy Spirit had not yet been given in fullness (i.e., baptism of the Holy Spirit). In the meantime, people believed and were baptized in Jesus' name (others had received John's baptism). Now, for all those who believed before Pentecost, they might have believed and even have been baptized in Jesus' name, but they had yet to be baptized with the Holy Spirit. From Pentecost forward, both they and new believers had to be baptized with the Holy Spirit. That is why at the beginning of this dispensation, people had to receive a separate baptism of the Holy Spirit (e.g., Acts 8:15-16), whereas Paul can later say that IN ONE SPIRIT WE WERE ALL BAPTIZED INTO ONE BODY (1Corinthians 12:13).

Different contexts call for different actions. Simple. Now, for those who have the Holy Spirit, here are your orders:
1) Be filled with the Holy Spirit; (Ephesians 5:18)
2) Grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. (2 Peter 3:18)

After all, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. But, anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Him (Romans 8:9).

I speak in tongues, am I going to hell?

No one can tell my that my own personal testimony of the Baptism of the Spirit did not happen on May 22 2004. and all the people said amen and amen.

allow me to EDIT and rephrase what I meant:

during this season that we are in, I see the Baptism -with the first initial physical evidence of speaking in a different tongue- coming under attack more and more. In two ways.

1 plain ignorance -"well, I don't understand/ don't want to give over to the Spirit"

2 willing hardheartedness -"this is what my pastor taught me and I am going to be offended if anyone tells me I'm wrong"

both I consider an attack. on the actual event and on the our Lord's children.

There are five friends in the book of Acts. shall I pull those out?

Yes, we have the legal means by which the Spirit can dwell in each of us, permanently.

and then Yes, we have the Promise of the Father given by Jesus. He blew on the disciples and said for them to receive.

What happened? Nothing physical... or spiritual!

He gave them a down payment AND... AND... (drum roll) and example of what would happen one that last day of Old Cov't ways. There was a sound of a mighty rushing wind. He blew that they would recognize that was the day Christ was referring to- so that they would know what happened.

Now, nowhere do I read about any baptism being stopped.

I do however read every now and then about some jerk taking Scripture out to lunch and saying that it means "since the Canon is complete, there is no more need for this phenomenon of speaking in tongues..."

I have an Imac27 and I can comfortably open 4 windows of commentary and word studies if you want to be proven wrong.

The lame arguments don't cut the musturd.

We are in a time of danger, toil and snare. Yes, IN Christ we have already overcome. In fact, we're more than overcomers.

There is great deception.

To those of my brothers and sisters that have been Baptized and do speak in tongues, I greatly engourage you to not be lazy. Speak!

to those who have not yet, SEEK!

do not let pride dwindle you!

do not give in to embarrasment!

Trust me, once 'on the other side' so to speak, you will understand and know there is nothing to fear.

but you must Trust God as you ought.

there have been good reasons to avoid the foolish rolling on the floor and barking like dogs. This is not God but someone attempting to earn something with God. Nothing can be earned with God but all is freely taken from our Lord. What can we give Him or earn by acting a certain way?

So far, I've not seen any posted clear reason for the Baptism of the Holy Spirit w/ initial evidence of unknown language. Perhaps that would be a fresh place to begin this post again, SI users.

shawn.

"So far, I've not seen any posted clear reason for the Baptism of the Holy Spirit w/ initial evidence of unknown language."

Perhaps you will be the one to support this evidence? :)

I am neither one of the two you say were attacks on this evidence but say its not an evidence of the Holy Spirit baptism. My background is Pentecostal and have greatly seen this taught and I have come to acknowledge the gifts of the Holy Spirit they are very much needed and used in the Church but we ignore the fruit of the Spirit as evidence as clearly taught by Christ Jesus, this causes some false baptism because you remove the actual evidence.

Growing up Pentecostal my testimony of "tongues" in most Pentecostal churches is a source of Peer pressure and group acceptance often pushed by the leaders. The unbaptized man walks in and says wow everyone is speaking in tongues so in order to be accepted at this church I too must do the same, this man speaks jibberish and Tada! instant baptism and instant acceptance BUT Zero evidence.

For those that genuinely speak tongues I don't say this to offend but to point to a falsehood that I have seen so many times.

Then you are saying the Holy Spirit can't come unless 95 percent of the time they must speak in tongues.

It is the Spirit of God who decides what gift to give.He gave me what I despised most.Tongues Glossolalia. I suppose you might say God's sense of humor.
The beauty of being a christian is we don't need tongues to speak to God we can talk to Him in English or Dutch or any other language.I enjoy my communication with God.

Relax sit back let the Spirit of God decide what is best.Not speaking in tongues is not evidence your not baptized by the Spirit.The other path is to difficult.Many who speak in tongues are pretending.They were taught by someone who mouthed it for them.God's Spirit is the sovereign giver.Paul says "you may all prophesy"

I was led by God's Spirit out of the main group who leaned towards a new ponzi scheme put a dollar in get ten back.It looked good but was false.Abraham's gold was not available without Abraham's cross.

lol i echo that

your thread blessed me as i am currently at a church that is very "loving" but also very seeker friendly. The gifts are not really tolerated. Some of the more charismatic members, meet up in isolation and i think this is divisive. The issue is the charismatic folk are not submitted to scripture, and neither are the leaders. One is led by emotional excess the other church traditions. Its really hard reaching out to either as both have unrepentant pride. I find it remarkable how the most seemingly loving people are so resistant to the word of God.

ps: I have never met a spirit-filled and gifted cessationalist, have you? If the gifts have ceased then how does the holy spirit minister equip his church?

as an encouragement to our viewers, I will input thoughts concerning the Baptism. My purpose is to be a helper in the Faith. I am not willing to argue.

Approved, my thoughts exactly. Also, we know Paul spoke more than all of them in tongues. So, yes, %100 of those baptized speak in tongues.

luke 24:49 is a 2nd work of Grace. The key is Grace- we do not deserve this anyhow but our Lord IS Love so it's not like He has to muster it up. It's a natural flow that makes perfect sense to Him.

now the full benefits of the new Cov't come in at Acts 2:1-4

Who can receive the Holy Ghost? John 7:37-39 says any who believe

Peter knew he was living in the last days... of the Old Cov't. And God came and "blew" it away and now at that last day, the Spirit can legally permanently reside in us.

matt 27:52 has the Spirit legally residing in them. What Power? why would you fight against the Holy Ghost when He only wants to Power you?

luke 24:13-15 they still did not understand to not look for a physical Jesus. It wasn't until Acts that they were able to have their eyes opened to understand.

The Spirit Powers us to be a witness in lifestyle, our verbal walk and in supernatural ways.

It's NOT normal to NOT have the Baptism of the Spirit in the book of Acts.

what about those who say it stopped? consider these:

Malachi 3:6 - Lord does not change

Joel 2:27, 28 all flesh, not some for the first few years...

Acts 2:38, 39 in verse 39 we see that this continues for generations by the word "children"

Heb 13:8 Nor does He change His mind about New Cov't things in the N/T

our wonderful fiends who take the Scripture 1Cor 13:9, take it but they take it out of context!

Prophecy and Knowledge will be disregarded. Jesus is Perfect. BUT, Jesus had not come back yet! Yeah! So we still hear preaching and we still hear words from our Lord! I am glad I will not be Comfortless while I wait for Him to come.

there are two categories:

"I don't know"
"I don't want"

The initial physical evidence is the 1st visible proof.

it is recorded that they both heard and spoke languages they never heard.

I could also tell stories of how missionaries ended up speaking the local language and beautifully at that! I think that is God's heart.

I realize that there have been many who hijacked the doctrine and end up making it something it was never intended to be. Really, who would want to be a part of rolling around on the floor, trying to show God how holy you are? It's plain dumb. What can you offer God?

there is no IPE with Salvation. There is when the Baptism w/ speaking in tongues. Nothing to be afraid of.

The conclusion is that these are two different events. And they can happen one right after the other.

Why did God choose to include tongues?

Because according to James, it is the hardest member to control. So now the unruly member that the devil used is now used to Glorify God.

Acts 2:7-11 is speaking the wonderful works of God.

Rev 4:8, 10; 5:9 we know they will not be speaking english... so we can call this tongues! And what are they doing? SAYING praises to God.

unfortunately, Is 28:11 and 12 is actually speaking concerning a near judgment. So I will not use that out of context.

1cor 14:21, 22 validate tongues in the N/T

Jude 20 you build up in the Most Holy Faith

1cor 14:4 don't you want to be edified?

john 16:13 guides us as what to speak

1Cor 14:15 with understanding and in the Spirit(w/o understanding) -if you do not know what you're speaking, how can you doubt?

So another purpose is to help us pray in perfect Faith. If you knew what you were asking for, you could and probably would doubt. You might be praying for a million dollars and not know it!

is Eph 6:18 speaking about praying in the Spirit(tongues) or with words of men? -anyway, it's for ALL Saints to use to lift one another up with.

rom 8:26, 27 is the Spirit praying through us. How better to pray than to have God Himself glorifying His own Name and Works?

now that I have placed several Scriptures in your path about how and purpose, can someone prove to SI that the baptism of the Holy Spirit with the first visible proof of speaking in another language, is no longer for today?

andie72 wrote:
One more thing, it is said if you don't have the spirit you are not of Christ. I believe, is it possible to have the spirit without the full baptism.

Whatever a person desires from the Lord, they first must have faith that they will receive FROM THE LORD. In threads like this, one can see a lot of fear in even asking God – they list all the crazies out there speaking in tongues and prophesying like banshees; but imho, it comes down to faith in God – asking Him for bread and believing you will receive bread and not a stone (Matt 7.9, Luke 11.11). Just my two cents.

andie72 wrote:
When you have received this baptism, do you definately KNOW you have received it? What do you feel? Does the feeling last?

Now, about “do you know if you have received?” I’ve not done scientific research to back this up but I’ve personally not met anyone who was baptized in the Holy Ghost (Spirit) and not known what happened to them. (huge friendly grin) God did not sneak up on them and give it to them without their knowing!!

This truly is something that you will hunger and thirst for; how I explain to others here in America is that you can work for an employer who pays pretty good but offers no benefits or you can work for the employer who has great pay AND fringe benefits! It really is your choice. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is the ultimate fringe benefit of walking with God... but like you said it is “possible to have the Spirit without the full baptism.” It is your choice!!

God bless you!!
Lisa

Not to Andie....
PS: Please people, do not find fault with my analogies. If something aggravates you, take it to the Lord in prayer. Give me the respect that I give you if you don’t like or agree with what I’ve written. God bless you.

Let us not indulge in 'foolish arguments'.

Food for thought aka 5001 principles for speaking in tongues (i might not actually be joking)

1. All may speak , but all do not speak in tongues
Acts 2:4
*All* of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.
[All these folks were filled and spoke with tongues]

1 Corinthians 12:30 (King James Version)

30 Have *all* the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
[The answer is obviously no all people do not speak in tongues. But this doesn't mean they all cant if they wanted to. God does not withhold any good thing from his servants]

2. Authentic non-psychosomatic charisma is normally accompanied by a diversity of gifts. focus on singular gifts is erroneous and the tell-tale sign of fleshly unctions or a lack of love. see 1 Cor chapter 13

3. The holy spirit is able to give unction to those with the tongues to pray in the spirit (one form of prayer in the spirit), but is he not also able to intercede on our behalf without tongues?

3b. is having tongues are prerequisite of the spirit interceding on our behalf? [If you are born again the Holy Spirit will intercede on your behalf whether you have tongues or not. If not how is it possible for all Christians to pray in the spirit always if all Christians dont as the bible says always speak in tongues]

4. Tongues has two context. Corporate worship and private worship. Both can be subject to interpretation in a corporate setting. Be wary of mass psychosomatic hysteria. No interpretation is a warning sign.

5. What is the major ministry of the holy spirit in our lives? For argument sake lets say it is to convict us of sin, righteousness and of judgment? What would then be the evidence of an indwelling spirit? freedom from sin evidenced by a genuine repentance from sin or babbling meaningless syllables that are not even holy spirit inspired?

6. Are we reading ourselves into scripture and interpreting promises made to the corporate body? e.g. "and these signs will follow those who believe...." Can we?

7. What did Jesus or the apostles say was the "evidence" of an indwelling spirit? Was tongues ever referenced as a attribute of a spirit filled person?

stay bless

Jesus commanded His disciples to tarry in Jerusalem for the promise of the Holy Spirit.

...he charged them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, said he, ye heard from me: Acts 1:4

This is not optional in the Believer's life.

The Baptism in the Holy Spirit is not an end in itself. It is only the doorway, the beginning to the deeper life. It is given because we need power to be witnesses (bold). And to be bold witnesses, you need to be free from the fear of man. You need to be free from the control and influence of man. You can see Peter before and after His Baptism.

It is given for power to carry your cross when all turn against you. This is being a witness.

It is given so that you will be a witness as your Lord was a witness.

Joh 1:7 The same came for witness, that he might bear witness of the light, that all might believe through him.

Are you a witness of the Light?

You are not the Light, you are only a witness. Same as John the Baptist was a witness.

Joh 1:8 He was not the light, but came that he might bear witness of the light.

Joh 3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that which we know, and bear witness of that which we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

When you speak what you know and have "seen" don't be surprised when you are not received.

Joh 3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease.

Are you decreasing? The Baptism in the Holy Spirit is given that you may have power to decrease. You cannot decrease without it. You will build religious structures to yourself and not even know it, thinking that you are increasing Jesus, yet you are really increasing yourself.
Look around today and see what I mean.

Joh 3:31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is of the earth, and of the earth he speaketh: he that cometh from heaven is above all.

Yes, of the earth he speaketh and many speak today.

Joh 3:32 What he hath seen and heard, of that he beareth witness; and no man receiveth his witness.

No man receiveth His witness.

Joh 3:33 He that hath received his witness hath set his seal to this, that God is true.

Yes, that God is true. That means there is no fear of man or devil in your life.

Joh 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for he giveth not the Spirit by measure.

Has God sent you? If you have been sent, you are speaking the words of God and not man. Who are you honoring?

So, first and foremost you receive the Baptism in the Holy Spirit to be witnesses. The emphasis today is on gifts. Isn't Satan clever? Go and study what being a witness means.

It does not mean handing out tracts. What it means is total death to self and ambition and pride. Then you decrease. It means being crucified by religious people and honoring God all along the way. That's POWER! To please God and not man. POWER to be a Godpleaser and not a Manpleaser.

Are you His witness? No other question is important. Because if you are not His witness, you are spinning your wheels in life and His presence is not going with you.

The clock is ticking....

This is a very good book...

Pentecostal papers: or, The gift of the Holy Ghost

Samuel Ashton Keen - 1895 - 190 pages

http://books.google.com/books?id=-wc3AAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=pentecostal+papers&hl=
en&ei=wbU9TbefMoL78AbR4cSbCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result
&resnum=1&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
(I really dislike WIDE si pages from links, so please remove the "enter" spaces from the end of lines 2 and 3)

He is Methodist and the focus of his book is the baptism of the Holy Ghost; his focus is NOT on any of the gifts of the Spirit. He DOES speak of another baptism. I would say that even someone who does not believe in speaking in tongues would enjoy reading this book!

God bless,
Lisa

Another mark of a spirit-filled person is that he lets the Word adjust him, instead of adjusting the Word. Because he fears God he gets in line with what God has to say and does not argue with Him or water His Word down.

knitefall IPE? what is this?

The initial physical evidence is the 1st visible proof.

The initial physical evidence is the 1st visible proof.

It was amazing to watch the Lord pour out His Spirit like that!

God bless,
Lisa

Knitefall, I understand your stance to an extent, I even understand the importance of Baptism, BUT I just can't see Speaking in tongues as the all inclusive evidence of Baptism.

What Baptism will do physically is promote Holy and loving living, I don't need to speak in tongues for this but operate according to the Spirits leading. How do I know I have the Spirit, you may ask. I know because I walk and produce the Fruit of that Spirit.

Christ said Matthew 7:16 "You will know them by their fruits..."

Christ doesn't say you will know them by their gifts but BY the Fruit they produce on a regular basis. THEN Christ continues... Matthew 7:22 22"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

These men Jesus is talking about operated in the gifts of prophecy, casted out demons, and worked Miracles. THEY too had gifts they used but Jesus will continuously look at your heart. I am not saying gifts=lawlessness but what I am saying is you can use gifts as evidence but can in fact can be a cover for lawlessness and so make a poor "evidence"

Christ also says in John 13:35 "35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

When we meet someone that professes Christianity our first question shouldn't be "Do they speak in tongues" but Do they operate in Love?

Please understand the heart of this, I believe and acknowledge and even operate in the gifts of the Holy Spirit (the ones given to me) but these are only extension of Love. The gifts are dependant on Love but Love is not dependant on the gifts as affirmed by Paul in:

1 Corinthian 13:1-3 " 1 If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing."

There are also many Preacher on this site that we can no doubt called Spirit filled and yet their testimonies affirm they never have/did speak in tongues. A.W Tozer to my knowledge being one of these men yet many call him a prophet.

One baptised in the Holy Spirit will live a Holy Life and have great Love for God and great Love for the brethren. They will also have and express the fruits of the Spirit described in Galatians 5:22-23 "22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law."

Sorry to be so animate about this topic but I believe there are many people that fall under the bonage of not being "Spirit-filled" because they don't speak in tongues but yet they operate in a different gift given and are just as Spirit-filled as one that speaks in tongues.

mguldner:

I believe you are attempting to put up a different argument whether you know better or not. I did not speak at all about the Gifts of the Spirit, which are completely different from the Acts 2 experience.

Many get the two different topics mixed up. There are words from our Lord and interpretations. There are Gifts of healing and wisdom and etc...

And then there is being baptized in the Holy Spirit with the initial evidence of speaking something. The purposes I have briefly outlined in an above post.

thank you.

And then there is being baptized in the Holy Spirit with the initial evidence of speaking something.

I believe Dr Martyn Lloyd-Jones used the phrase 'gift of utterance' to describe the initial evidence where it occurs, particularly as some people never 'speak in tongues' again.

The Word never calls this a gift to speak. It is in a sense but it is not part of the 9 Gifts. If someone's logic does not line up with Scripture, gotta get new logic.

I hope I don't sound to harsh, that's not what I intend.

And this is what I'm talking about- if you have been baptized in the Holy Ghost, do not stop speaking in tongues! You never really loose the baptism, some say that you need a re-filling through your life. I don't know about that myself but I do know there is an actual baptism we supernaturally experience. Do some research around on google and see what others have said in videos about 'how to be baptized in the Holy Ghost'

like I said before, no one can tell me that my own testimony is not true. and all the people who are ignorant said 'Amen' and 'Amen.'

Firstly i would like to say that by his spirit i speak in tongues and have and can both interpret tongues and prophesy. I can also discern spirits. In a nutshell i am not a cessasionalist.

warning!!! many times in pride and arrogance we speak of things we partially understand. Remember we will give an account for every idle word. So watch what you say about the Holy spirit.!!!!

PROOF BY INDUCTION

Logic: For 5 consecutive Mondays i parked in the car park and a starbucks lady handed me free coffee.

Deductions
1. If you park on a monday you will get free coffee
2. you will always get a coffee from a starbucks lady if you park on a monday.

Both statements are inferred truth. Simimar to....

there are n-times in the bible where people were baptised and spoke in tongues therefore ill assume everytime someone is baptised they will speak in tongues.

This is simply not always true like with the case of the coffee example. Gifts often accompanies baptism but the gifts are not the baptism or even the evidence. The evidence is fruit not gifts. Gifts can be faked or fleshly inspired.

Just had a baby girl praise god a few months ago. She is the fruit of my marriage to my wife. You can infer we consummated the marriage because there is evidence to show for it. Its similar to when we are espoused to the lord via the baptism of the holy spirit. The evidence that i am hitched to the groom and in a consummated intimate relationship with him is the fruit of our union. Jesus said a Good tree cannot bear bad fruit. fruit is the most reliable indicator and the indicator jesus, paul, james, john and peter tell us to look for.

There is a very high correlation in the text with the number of times people received a baptism and simultaneous utterances. But in sound hermeneutic interpretation it is still an eisegetical inferring. Find me one scripture where God says explicitly that the baptism of the spirit is evidenced by tongues in the context of an individual? The point im making is the evidence of tongues is only infered implicitly to and individual but explicitly to the corporate body (one body many parts(gifts)).

Is this not what the deciples spoke as the Spirit gave them utterance?

The truth about Jesus, that is what tongues are for.

Of course this is a new tongue, this is what the Holy Spirit came for, to give forth the truth about the Son of God that all might be saved. All that were there heard it in their own language. Tongues

Acts 2:22-33 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

"That which ye now see and hear".

All speaking Christ.

By the Holy Spirit. Do you think they all heard Peter in their own language? Tongues

Acts 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and ((((all ye that dwell at Jerusalem,)))) be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:

In Christ: Phillip

I will address later but do we actually understand biblical what baptism of the holy spirit is? From the tone of this thread it doesnt seem like it. This thread has come this far without a basic fundamental understanding of what the subject matter is yet so much contention. (**pussled**)

Tongues as explicit evidence is unbiblical. Tongues as a 'sign' for unbelievers is however biblical.

1. Tongues is a gift that often accompanies a genuine baptism. There are better gifts than tongues but the gifts we operate in is determined by spirit and not the will of man. (The greater gifts require spiritual maturity and love in order for us to be effective in ministry )

2. Most places that say "Tongues as evidence" are the most unbiblical of places. Worship leaders babbling gibberish without interpretation, pastors telling you "God is about to" make you rich, the entire congregation in carnal ecstasy all screaming in tongues, profess to be spirit filled yet unable to spiritually discern false doctrine or teachers *coughs **todd bentley**

3. Tongues as evidence churches are like Corinth. There is an air of we are more spiritual and lack nothing. Yet Jesus doesnt see them this way. Is it the spirit talking or self righteous pride?

4. Example of evidence by speaking in tongues pastors Juanita bynum, eddie long, benny hinn, thomas weeks, jamal bryant , paula white (do the math yourself.)

5. Paul asks the corinth church "are you not carnal" even with all the tongues manifested.

6. Most of such churches have hearing induction loops? *think about it*

7. Ecstatic utterance was and is practiced by pagans and without discernment you open the door to many foolish things.

8. Was pentecost the first time the disciples received the holy spirit?

9. On the day of Pentecost they spoke in 'other' intelligible tongues (corporate) and in Corinth they tended to speak in 'unknown' un-intelligible tongues (hence the anarchy like today)

10. Does the word of God interpret your experience? Or do you let you personal experience interpret the word of God?

The power promised is that we would be witnesses in all the earth. Some see power as peter receiving the holy spirit and speaking in tongues and this indeed was a great witness. Some see peter once a denier, get up after pentecost and preach without fear and 3000+ giving thier lifes as an even greater witness.

Tongues as a 'sign' for the unbeliver is biblical but Tongues as a sign for the believer is not. the bible tells us clearly what the evidence of and indweling spirit is to the believers and im yet to find one scripture that says Tongues are a sign for beliver. I have believed the Gospel the evidence for me as a believer is not the gift of tongues.

This distinction between 'signs' for the unbeliever and evidence of an indwelling spirit to a believer is crucial to a biblical centered understanding of the subject matter. Embarrassing i was zealously a believer of tongues as evidence for years until i was delivered from my own self righteously deceitful heart and realized how desperately i needed him.

Conclusion
If Jesus said indeed that we would recieve power to witness what is the greater witness gifts or fruits.

Questions i would like answered

What is the baptism of the holy spirit?
What is baptism into the body of chirst?
Can we recieve the holy spirit and not be baptised in the holy spirit?
Does the spirit make intercessions with groans that cannot be uttered exclusively only for those with the gift of tongues?
Does the intercession of the holy spirit only come once we recieve tongues

I think we have muddied the waters a little with gift and fruit, signs and evidence. Jesus also said we would not be harmed by serpents. So using the same logic could we say that if a believer was bitten by a snake and he died he was not filled with the holy ghost. Paul didn't die form literal snake bites so if all individuals who are baptized speak in tongues and are immune to snake bites then the evidence would have to be
tongues and immunity to snake bites. Or better still tongues, immunity to snake bites and casting out of demons.
But why stop there...

My biblical stance now by applying tongues as evidence logic is that the clearest sign of baptism must be

1. evidence of speaking in tongues(interpretation not required)

2.Documented and medically verified immunity to snake venom.

3.Casting out of satanic spirits(mandatory or you do not have a genuine infilling remember greater is he...)

4. Private jet

if you dont live up to my interpretations you do not have the spirit.

They said that they did those things, it doesn't mean that they did. Think about it, How can they cast out devils if Christ is not in them?

The name of Christ is powerful. I believe it could happen. Weren't the disciples doing it?

Christ was with them but not in them. Yet Mt 10:8 they were told to raise the dead, cast out devils. It is the authority of Christ that casts out demons.

In mt 7:22, many will use this as an excuse as to why they should be allowed in, but the Lord will say nu uh, you loved these things more than me. He is looking for worshippers.

Luk 9:49 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
Luk 9:50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

This is one of the most confusing things to people in churches where sometimes they discern God's presence as HIS word IS preached

Mt 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not yet after their works; for they say, and do not.
vs 5. but all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments.
vs. 25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

Mt 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Ja 3:16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.

And the list goes on...

The Lord is merciful! Where the Word is preached, people still get saved!

hi, i really rather everyone who has all the answers on this question would just be entrapprd in their biased and incorrect opinions and me to go on without opining.the baptism of the Holy Spirit is when the Holy Spirit emerses us in Jesus. the baptism in the Holy Spirit is when Jesus emerses us in the Holy spirit...we certainly receive the Holy Spirit when we get saved but Jesus saidto His followers to tarry in Jerusalem until they receive the promise.on the day of pentacost(50)the Holy Spirit fell and rain man, peter said these are not drunk as ye suppose...WHY?their actions ... is tongues the evidence of this baptism? in all of the cases in acts it is mentioned e.g. see and hear...millions and millions around the world have this evidence...len ravenhill

Many in the church today believe that they know that they have "believed in Jesus" they can sin as much as they want or more because they are born-again sons of God that can never lose that status with God. They have confessed Christ as Lord with their mouth at some point, and now they are living pretty much as they want to. There is not that true respect for the authority of Jesus Christ in their lives. They are pretty sure the blood of Jesus covers them no matter what they do, say or believe now. Some of them may actually condemn those who teach the need to be faithful to Jesus Christ. Some have gone a step further and have embraced the things of the Spirit. They have experienced supernatural confirmation of the reality of the Lord - indeed, many of them have not only spoken in tongues, but also prophesied, cast out demons and ministered healing in Jesus' name. Now all this is commendable and Biblical. But it does not excuse wilful sin. - Paul Washer

You don't think it's possible for a person to have faith to cast out demons, but yet still not overcome?

I am not sure why the jews in Acts 19 were unable to cast out the demons. The disciples also failed at casting out a demon. In the disciples case, Jesus said it was because of unbelief.

Mat 17:19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
Mat 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

Excellent response Phillip, biblically accurate and very well presented.

The Holy Spirit is also called the Spirit of truth. We need the Holy Spirit so we will know the truth.

John 14:14-17 KJV
(14) If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
(15) If ye love me, keep my commandments.
(16) And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
(17) Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 14:6 KJV
(6) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 14:26 KJV
(26) But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Ephesians 1:13 KJV
(13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

The purpose of the Holy Spirit is salvation.

Excellent post by Jimp.

was and is practiced by pagans and without discernment

however this talk of being pagan and not of God sure sounds a lot like Mk 3:29.

If these men and women who have the infilling of the Spirit, speak in a different language than you and are Saved and have the Righteousness of God dwelling in them, and you speak evil of them, I openly rebuke you- Rom 16:17.

why attack and put down those who on the side of The Faith- Mk 9:39, 40, 42; Lk 17:2?

How dare you decide apart from Scripture that another brother or sister is of the devil? "Oh... I did not use the words 'of the devil...'" Saying that it is pagan to speak in tongues surely implies that doesn't it?

I thought we were to promote Christ and Revival and not our own agenda here? I rebuke you.

Granted, foolishness has taken over circles of those who do not know where to place their Faith anyhow. But why be ignorant of Scripture?

Don't attempt to overthrow the Faith of these people. You know better and are not dumb. You can read that this is a normal part of the Salvation of a sinner. Did you rip pages out?

Those of us that know better and have received the Baptism of the Spirit, was I too harsh in this post?

-a rather upset, me.

Do you see those two words 'without discernment'?

Those devils didn't recognize their authority, but they recognized Paul and Jesus

It was not because of "Paul's authority" that Paul could cast out demons, it was because of his faith in Jesus' authority.

The demons knew of Paul because he was a dangerous man to them. Like how the devil knew job too.

When Jesus said "I never knew you" He's talking about relationship with Him.

It's possible to work for someone and not know them.

I just thought I would say for the most part I have enjoyed this thread, I have learned much and have gone deeper into Christ. My only question and concern is has it done the same for the rest posting here?

coming from a Pentecostal background i should believe that tongues is the evidence of the in filling. In fact at one point i would even boast that " I speak in tongues more than you all". I see what scripture says, tongues are a 'sign' for the 'unbelievers'. Who are the 'unbelivers'? Could God have prophesied to these 'unbelivers' saying 'with men of stammering lips will i speak to you but you will not hear me'? Could God have ordained all this to provoke the traditional Jew to jealousy? Tongues are a 'sign' for unbelievers when they hear us praise God or prophesy in their own language when tongues are private or babble unbelievers will think you are just crazy nut-jobs and they are not brought to repentance. Its remarkable how fixated we are on tongues and not even remotely realising that in allot of cases most significantly people also prophesied after receiving an infilling. What is the greater 'sign' to an unbeliever that will convict him by the power of the holy ghost of their sins(remember there is a primary goal for witnessing) is it tongues or prophesy? I can only go with what i read in the bible. I See numerous occasions (if not all) where people where baptised and began speaking in tongues and prophesying almost instantaneously. If we must be jealous of a gift should it be tongues or prophesy. Are we introducing legalism into the baptism of the holy spirit?

Disciples of John
Acts 19 Amplified
1WHILE APOLLOS was in Corinth, Paul went through the upper inland districts and came down to Ephesus. There he found some disciples.

2And he asked them, Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed [on Jesus as the Christ]? And they said, No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.

3And he asked, Into what [baptism] then were you baptized? They said, Into John's baptism.

4And Paul said, John baptized with the baptism of repentance, continually telling the people that they should believe in the One Who was to come after him, that is, in Jesus [having a conviction full of joyful trust that He is Christ, the Messiah, and being obedient to Him].

5On hearing this they were baptized [again, this time] in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6And as Paul laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them; and they spoke in [foreign, unknown] tongues (languages) and prophesied.

7There were about twelve of them in all.

Review of 19:1-7
1. If belief was a criteria for salvation then these disciples were already saved as they already 'believed' they just hadn’t had an infilling yet. This is significant because it proves that believing in Christ may not always be accompanied with and immediate infilling of the Holy Spriit. Ask this question if they believed in Jesus and nobody can believe in Jesus unless it is given of them from the father via the holy spirit how was it they were able to believe?
2. They didnt just speak in tongues they also prophesied and in allot of cases that is what i see in the bible. Tongues , prophesy and spirit filled inspired preaching or simply the spirit giving the unction for an inspired utterances. But all of this i repeat has always been and is a 'sign' for the unbeliever not 'sign' for the believer.

If the bible encourages any one form of inspired utterance it is that we all prophesy.

I remember the first time i was sat down in a chair and forced to speak in tongues. The men kept bullying me into speaking in tongues i didnt feel anything. But in pride and arrogance they kept on insisting i should have faith and speak in tongues. It wasn’t a pleasant experience and i didn’t feel like i connected with God, in fact i felt empty. All i felt was fear and uncertainty. But i could now speak in a prayer language. I would speak in tongues and be filled with fear and uncertainty some how I knew that I shouldn’t trust the voice that was speaking to me. I would have horrible visions where i was receiving instructions that would always turn out to be wrong. All because loving and well intentioned brothers had decided in their hearts that they knew the order in which God would always do things. But God being God decided that he would give me the gift of discernment of spirits first so i could see this foolishness. After i realized that i was only babbling demonically inspired garbage or from a fleshly unction, i thought to myself i would really like to receive the genuine gift. After months of searching for it during a service at the same demon infested church (yes ironic how God does things) i was going to i felt him touch me and i fell out flat, knocked out like i had been hit by mike tyson yet i was the softest of touches. When i Got up there was a Joy and power i felt when i spoke in tongues i knew i had received the authentic gift, by discernment of spirits i know when gifts are false. I began to realise that just like the bible says the spirit gives gifts as he wills. I began to study the church of Corinth in how they all spoke in tongues yet had to be reprimanded for immaturity. Gifts are a 'Sign' for unbelievers or gentiles but fruits are evidence of a mature discourse and koinoia with the Holy spirit. As [believers] is the evidence we should be looking for the same as the signs that are given to bring unbelievers to bring them to repentance. Many people profess to be spiritual and yet cannot discern false teachers, are unaware of demonic activity around them (preacher could be an unrepentant molester and not one single member of a 30k+ congregation would discern this? do you not find that odd?)

ps: In acts we see men from all over the world hearing praise and prophesy in their own tongue. But i employ you to actually read closely and you will see all these men from around the world were Jews who were born in foreign countries returning for the festival and hearing God praised in the dialect of the land they were born. The importance to all this is that they heard the gospel being preached and the gospel would indeed be preached amongst the nations.

Conclusion

Eisegetically we can see from the numerous occasions that when there was an infilling especially in the public domain of unbelievers that the pattern was that people often spoke in tongues and prophesied. Think about this biblically did they all do both? Did they all speak in tongues and all prophesy at the same time or did some speak in tongues and some prophesy as the spirit gave them these abilities as he willed? Which of these two premises is in agreement to how the bible declares the spirit dispenses gifts amongst his church?.

There is no exegetical explicitly stated verse in the bible that says tongues is a 'sign' for believers and that we know the spirit is at work in us when we speak in tongues.

I say this with humility so you understand where I am coming from. God has used me to prophetically warn people of events that would happen specifically in their lives. He has woken me up in the middle of the night and told me specifically about men of God of past I had never heard of before in order to avoid being influenced by their doctrine. Told me to go tell a preacher he was an occultist and that he had opened his house to demons and that his daughter would dies as a result(he wept and cried as God exposed his folly but never repented as he was in too deep as he put it). You dont go up to a 65 year old man and say these things if you dont hear from God clearly. So in a nutshell I am not in the least bit vague about who the holy spirit is and how he operates. The assumption many make is "oh he probably doesnt speak in tongues...." but to me tongues are wonderful but prophesy is much better. Had i gone to the old preacher and merely prayed in tongues what would have been the benefit? I employ you not to infer what you think the word is saying. If a bunch of new converts received the infilling I would be surprised if the majority didn’t speak in tongues when they received the infilling but I would not say that because some didn’t speak in tongues they didn’t receive the holy spirit.

Textual Difficulty

We are to pray always in the spirit, yet all do not speak in tongues as paul said.So how then can he say we should pray in the spirit always?

ps:I must agree somewhat with brother jimps last post we have abused allot of God word with the 'artistic' license we have taken from it.

Praying in the Spirit is not about praying in tongues. It's about praying in line with God's will. It's about praying according to the mind of Christ.

The other point I'd like to make in regard to Rom 8:26, 27, is that if we are 'in the Spirit', then our spirits are communing with God all the time. It is only when we give our full mental attention to prayer, that we can allocate it a category (such as intercession, supplication, thanksgiving, worship and praise - not an exhaustive list), and it is at those times we also become conscious of our weaknesses in prayer, of distractions, of selfish desires (and so on).

Thank you thats exactly my next point. Excellent post. You have made the points i was going to make for me. to me your post is clear and concise. The key to all of this is the Holy Spirit interceding on our behalf. Tongues most definitely is a form of spirit prayer but is praying in the spirit exclusive to speaking in tongues? Im glad you can see the point i was trying to make. Like paul says if you pray in tongues you should pray they you interprete your own tongues. If my tongues is authetic then i should be able to recieve from God an interpretation to these tongues. Havent you wondered why there virtually no interpretation in the church today. there is no interpretation and mass ecsacy. What happened to 2 or 3 at a time with interpretation is mass worship with everyone speaking in tongues at the same time biblical? Do you go to such churches? The church i attend almost virtually have forbidden speaking in tongues. Yet the pastor does have the gift but is to scare of his cessationalist members so i have experienced both extremes charismatic deluded chaos and theological cemetery. One cold the other luke warm either no good.

The context of interpretation is not a burden to the individual but a requirement of the collective body for edification. What i am alluding to is that there should be am emphasis on interpretation if tongues are spoken in a corporate and public setting as well as order, remember that one of the fruits of the spirit is self-control. The ability as a body to interpret is more important than the imperative on the individual Paul simply said if you speak in tongues already pray that you might interpret what you already speak, logically by doing so you edify more people than just yourself.

Now as an individual you may or may not interpret that's a given but why do we find this exhortation to pray for interpretation and prophesying? Is it only for corporate edification? Could Paul have seen already in Corinth and prophetically in future days how utterances without interpretation or prophesy could become unedifying and even divisive? The seeking of the "greater" gifts that edify the body is a direct exhortation to the church. What i am saying is that amongst a corporate setting is is very alarming when there is mass chaotic charisma and speaking in tongues even though the bible instructs us that it should be no more than 2 or 3 with interpretation. We only legalistically what to follow the letter of the law when it suits us. If you are going to a church that practices this mass hysteria by what precedence has your church decided to do so?

What should be the final authority what the bibles says or our experiential interpretation of what we think it says.

There should be no burdens only exhortations. The apostle extensively talks about orderly worship and tongues in a corporate setting so i struggle to see why it is so unambiguous to people.

Final Note
There is a difference between explicit and inferred truth. If God says adultery is wrong you cannot convince me otherwise as i know God has spoken explicitly on this matter. On the other hand if you say i must be Calvinist to be truly saved then i have issues as you have inferred doctrine. Inferred doctrine causes mindless arguments. Will a believer perish because he doesn't speak in tongues?

I have met believers who do not speak in tongues yet the power of the holy spirit is **evident for all to see**. I have met people and without ever speaking a word to me said to them "You are christian and filled with the holy spirit" how did i know? They werent speaking in tongues just going about thier normal day. Jesus says greater works we shall do in his name and i believe this. He mets a lday by the well and tells her her life history and this brings her to repentance. I dont expect all Christians to be able to discern this way but i most certianly know the apostles would have been able to do this.I see a man lie and drop dead in the presence of the holy spirit. Peter knew immediately through the holy spirit anaias was lying. Take a non-biased look at the new testament and you'll see the infilling isn't even a once only event. "Be ye filled" is present continuous. How may times does the NT record the [act]ivities of the spirit filled apostles after Pentecost. How many times can we see and [so and so] filled with the spirit spoke boldly? hang on if being spirit filled meant tongues all the time why did they speak boldly when the narrative spoke of them being "filled". some get into the initial "filling" argument and thats a debate for another day.

Don't put anyone under the yoke of a mere subjective interpretation, people we will account for every last word. God speaks to us explicitly and implicitly in his word. What is implicitly inferred is okay to believe but when we become dogmatic that when religious legalism creeps in. We have fullness in christ.

God Bless

Apologies for the length of post

The 12 including the newly appointed Matthias were filled with the Holy Spirit and these were speaking to all Israel and more and all understood in their own language.

Acts 2:7-11 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

These tongues I believe in and the build up of the church, as God was adding to the church daily.

The rest of Acts 2 must also have this gift working, for Peter was speaking to all that were there, and they were all in one accord. Tongues, different languages must be in operation for them to all be in one accord and all hear what Peter was speaking and all understand.

This is the operation that is in effect in all evidence of receiving salvation and baptism in the Holy Spirit.

All else Paul warns against.

In Christ: Phillip

These tongues I believe in and the build up of the church, as God was adding to the church daily.

1Co 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

1Co 14:23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

1Co 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
1Co 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

In a congregation of Believers there must be an interpreter otherwise no one is edified.

1Co 14:31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.

YE MAY ALL prophesy. This will edify ALL. All will learn and be comforted. Paul is speaking to the Corinthian church, no less. Ye may all prophesy, one by one.

Most of Old Testament Prophesying was pointing God's people back to Him. A smaller percentage was foretelling events. Prophesying is not limited to just telling future events and may not include that at all.

Just as a sidebar; if I am an Oklahoma boy, speaking english, well sorta, and I am speaking to a mexican and he hears me in his own language and stays with me time enough to understand the Gospel of Paul, Christ in you, He needs not to go and teach his breathrn in tongues of language that are strange, because his spanish speaking to his brethern needs no speaking in tongues, he can now speak to them with understandind and expoud the Gospel of the mystery; Pauls Gospel, Christ in you, born again, birthed by the incorruptable Seed of the Father in those of his choosing to bring Christ to that they might believe and be baptized in the holy Spirit to teach them, us all things that Jesus said an also said to Paul, his Gospel of Christ in you the Hipe of Glory.

Tongues will with the original learning by understanding the Gospel in their own language, tongues will become less and less because thay will be speaking to their own kind with their own language. Tongues are really not needed, unless a person who wants to hear Christ does not understand the language he is being spoken to, then I believe that the Holy Spirit will still use the speaking that all will understand in their own language and dialect and come to the knowledge of the Gospel of Paul, "Christ in you the Hope of Glory.

1 Corinthians 13:8-13 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; (all prophesy known)whether there be tongues, they shall cease; (everybody understand the gospel in their own language) whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect (Christ is perfect and He is come in the spirit and hearts of believers)is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

God is still using the Gifts today, but only to further His kingdom and His Christ.

In Christ: Phillip

Pentecost Acts 2:5-13
Just a side note. On the day of Pentecost Jews from all over the world were assembled in Jerusalem. 'Native tongue' of these Jews was simply the language of their country of birth e.g a Jew whose first language was roman, french etc. But they were still all Jews and inferring they were gentiles at this point would be erroneous. I highlight this because often a false assumption is made that the apostles spoke in tongues to reach out to a complete set of strangers from all over the world who just happened to be in Jerusalem for the day of Pentecost. These Jews returning from foreign countries of birth would have understood Hebrew as a second language as they were praticisng Jews. Peter speaking in tongues was a sign and fulfillment of prophesy. Peter did not preach a message in tongues his message was in hebrew. Often we "go beyond what is written" to satisfy ideas. Every resident and foriegn Jew under the sun heard the wonders of God in thier own langauge but the apostles didn't preach in tongues as some read into the scripture peter preached in Hebrews to a bewildered assembly that supposed they were drunk. From this initial assembly many were converted and took the message of Christ back to their native countries of birth i.e The roman jews went back to Rome with the gospel and declared it etc The Gospel went out to 'every nation' [ethnos possibly] of the earth on that day

please read Acts 2 from verse 5 and see for yourself

I am not saying God does not use tongues as a means to preach the gospel. Only the church has rewritten the bible and added stuff that simply isnt even in it. I have heard an american gospel singer sing in tongues and was speaking my mothers native dialect and he was exalting God as king so i have personally experienced such. The notion however that peter preached in tongues is purely eisegetically "reading in our desired conclusion" into the text as opposed to exegetical "reading out" from text

Hope you review what i have said

5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. 7 Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? 9 Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,[b] 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” 12 Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?”

13 Some, however, made fun of them and said, “They have had too much wine.”

Stay blessed

you'll find Peter preached in Greek, which was the street language of the day, even though the crowd were mostly 'Jews'.

I agree partly here....
I knew at some point peter spoke and wrote(if he didnt dictate his letters) Greek. And maybe indeed as you say he might have preached in greek(on the day of pentecost). But the reason i believe the message was in Hebrew or aramiaic is simply by inferring from scripture eisegetcally what language they were preaching in.

“Aren’t all these who are speaking [Galileans]? 8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language?"

What can be inferred from this is all the Jews present heard them speak and identified them as Galileans. Why? most plausible explanation is they were speaking a dialect of Hebrew synonymous with Galileans (Equivalent to an American identifying a Texan or new yorker by accent) or discerning what part of france a man comes from by his accent (i can't tell french men apart as to me they sound the same but to a french ear they can easily discern geographical regions)

History might infer they preached(on the day of pentecost) in Greek (no argument here as this could be quite possible) but we cant dismiss that as they were assembled in Jerusalem for Pentecost a Jewish festival being such a proud people i would lean to and inference of Hebrew dialect as all other Jews easily could identify the ones speaking as Galilean. Greek was indeed the lingua franca of the world in those days but on the day of pentecost i would lean towards them speaking in Hebrew.

Anyway Greek or Hebrew at least we can be agreed on one thing the apostles did not preach a message in tongues so to speak. When they spoke they were easily discernible as Galilean. But most importantly via greek or maybe hebrew the assembled Jews had a common language by which they could all communicate and partake in Pentecost. The bigger picture to all this is that the church has leaned towards a myth of a bunch of strangers(by implications gentiles) in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost who heard the gospel miraculously preached in their tongue as there was no other way of communication. As you can see from Acts 2 this simply wasn't the case. The assembly of Jews heard the wondrous works of God declared in their own language the message peter preached after that was not in tongues. for years i was taught so much eisegetical rubbish but it wasnt till i noticed the hearing induction loop at my church that i began to realize something was wrong. I questioanl all theology even my own , and especially my own day by day i am having to let go of pre-consieved ideas about God that weremt true. As i let go of myself i fell closer to God. To those who speak in tongues and have other gifts i say to you never forget it is his grace and not any self-righteuosness we have. To those who dont speak in tongues but want to, ask him and receive, its as easy as breathing. To those who dont speak in tongues and dismiss tongues because of subjective interpretation .. let go and let God surrender your intellect be humble, be hungry and he will fill you with joy unspeakable

Re my previous post, I think I misunderstood what you had in mind about the individual interpreting their own tongues. Of course it can happen in an assembly of saints, and as you point out, should happen if at all possible, if someone else does not interpret.

Ps: Allot of times when i respond i am not responding to people personally. allot of times i am responding to content and many times i could come across the wrong way so sorry if i have caused any offense by my posts.

"Where the word of a king is their is power"
The enemy comes to kill steal and destroy.

Tongues or No Tongues, sign or no sign evidence or no evidence
Let us "be filled" with his spirit and empowered by his indwelling presence bearing fruit 30, 60 and 100 fold so we are found faithful and diligent on his return

God Bless

Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

To do this it is necessary that they speak the language of the uttermost part of the earth, "Tongues"

When the twelve disciples were sent out to preach, Mt 10:5, their commission was very limited - they were not to go in the way of the Gentiles, nor enter into any city of the Samaritans, but preach the Gospel to the lost sheep of the house of Israel:

In Acts 1 and 2 their commission was inlarged to include the "uttermost part of the earth". This would take the Holy Spirit in them giving them not only power to be understood in all the languages of the people they went to but also all the gifts of the Spirit would be needed, that is the power of the Spirit, which they were told to stay in the upper room until they received this Holy Spirit power from on High, would give them to be His, Jesus Christs witnesses of all the earth, even to us who have received it here. Then Paul was sent to have it known that not only did we have the Holy Spirit in us forever, but we Had the incorruptable Seed of the Father, our new life, "a new creature", Christ in you the Hope of Glory".

Tongues are only for One Thing; Salvation by the Life of Christ in us. First in Acts, witness to Christ as the Messiah that we all crucified, then Paul with the Mystery of New Creature birth of the only life giving Spirit that gives salvation that is "Christ in you the Hope of Glory."

Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

In Christ: Phillip

Devout Jews from many nations were gathered in Jerusalem. These people had lived in the various nations and had learned the native language of these nations. The preaching and teaching that they heard on the day of Pentecost was done by Galileans, yet "every man heard them speak in his own language." "to another the interpretation of tongues", Acts 2:6-8. Sixteen nations and tongues (languages) are mentioned in verses 9-11, and these all heard the messages by the Galileans in their own language.

No one but Galileans received this gift of tongues on the day of Pentecost. Everybody did not speak in tongues. In fact it seems almost certain that only these Galilean Apostles of Christ received this ability. Everybody that heard them, at least the 3000 that were saved received the gift of "to another the interpretation of tongues"; 1 Corinthians 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: There is no record that any of the other people sought the gift of tongues. In fact the Bible does not give us even one example of any body ever seeking the gift of tongues at any place or any time!!

In Christ: Phillip

That is so true Approved!

God has a way of demolishing our theology.

He demolished the Apostle Paul's theology.

It is called a personal encounter with the Holy Spirit and power and our faith should not stand in the wisdom (rationalizations) of men.

ol, that struck me funny.
It's like we are so sure of the tone, the atmosphere, the Spirit, the surroundings, as if we were there to make these judgment calls.

1 If God word is the final authority and Gods word says his spirit will teach us all things, then is the holy spirit an ambiguous teacher? incapable of revealing the truths of the already expressed written word of God?

2 Again i mean no offense but the tone was not explicitly me saying i can definitely say what language peter spoke in but i do know he spoke in a common tongue to all assembled. I make clear distinctions when i am inferring from the word and when the word is explicit. The word is not explicit about what language was spoken but it is clear that peters sermon was most likely not in tongues. There is no presidence for a single man speaking in multiple tongues simultaneously in order to preach the gospel if you think so show me the scripture that i may believe. God spoke to the nations thorough 120 people not 1 single individual. Peter did not get up and preach in tongues to over 16 nations represented if he did the bible would say he did. The bible said peter got up and spoke to them but more on that later.

3 If you study Acts 2 as opossed to going with traditional church belief we will see the truth as the spirit enables us to.

4. The writings of the apostles are very spirtual and yet they are very coherent in the aruments that are made especially when they expound the OT. So the spirit doesnt give us theology that cannot be demonstrated from Gods word.

5. As the psalmist says "Your word oh God have you exhortated above [ALL] your name" Gods word is not to be treated subjectively with psedo-emotionalism. The Holy Spirit has the title of teacher, just as Jesus taught the disciples so does the Spirit teach us today (his teaching is not subjective it is demonstrative from Gods word)

6. even when the spirit does teach us every now and then personal opinions will creep in and cloud judgment that is why we must be taught of him.

7. The NT definition of spiritual is not the mystical nonsense that goes on in churches today. As someone said God has a free will but even Gods free will in bound to his nature. He is God and cannot lie therefore logically whatever he says is.

8. Scripture is never in isolation. God has given us his mind (the spirit) to reveal unto us the great mysteries of his word. Granted there will be things we can only know in part but the book of acts is not one such mystery.

9 If all Gods word that comes to us is to be tested. The bereans tested the word of the apostles by searching the scriptures daily to [see] for themselves if those things were so. Why simply because they knew that whatever was revealed by the apostles had to align with Gods word to be valid. Any belief that cannot be tested by scripture is mysticism and occultist.

10 Can you demonstrate what you believe God is saying from scriptural precedence if you cant, why not? And if you cant should you teach others those things *warning think todd bentley. Its easy to discern now but if i had told you3-4 years ago he was out of line with God word would you have believed*

I know the things i say will cause offense to popular church theology in which the spirit is prone to mystification. But we should not "go beyond what is written" because these are the last days and the devil and replicate any spiritual experience you want even tongues

AND YOU SHALL RECEIVE POWER - RELOADED
What did Jesus mean?

Allot of doctrinal confusion has resulted in the church today (especially of the charismatic persuasion, myself formally one such individual). Our understanding of acts 1:8 has shaped many belief systems. So i hope to share some of which the spirit has been teaching me on this topic over the last few days.

Key words: Power, witness, end of the earth [utmost]

ACTS 1
8 But you shall receive [power] when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be [witnesses] to me[a] in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, [and to the end of the earth].”

[Witness]
mar'-toos
Of uncertain affinity; a witness (literally [judicially] or figuratively [generally]); by analogy a “martyr”: - martyr, record, witness.

Isn’t it ironic the Greek word martos is used here. The English word witness just simply alludes to telling someone about an event that happened. But what Jesus was saying was much deeper. The witness is both in testifying of our saviour but it is also by implication death to this world and sacrifice echoed throughout all generations of this earth. The disciples were martyred for Christ and indeed the were witnesses. How I pray his church can die to this world and be powerful witnesses also. So the power they receive was not limited to signs and wonders for testifying but also the power that would enable them to endure to the very end even death.

[Utmost part of the earth]
eschatos
es'-khat-os
(In the sense of contiguity); farthest, final (of place or time): - ends of, last, latter end, lowest, uttermost.

This context is often misunderstood we assume Jesus meant the disciples would reach out to every nation under the sun. The context however is eschatos from which we get the word eschatology. While indeed there was a mandate to reach as many men geographically the fullest meaning of the word is one in which they would testify across space and time. When an African man in the last days picks up the bible and reads, it is fulfillment of Christ's.

Eschatos is not just geographical space as the apostles didn’t travel to every literal nation [but most likely every ethnos] as some nations weren’t even formed yet. But they can in this day through the bible as the inspired words of the Holy Spirit reach out to a man on a remote island that has never seen civilization. The words are spirit and life which witness across geographical boundaries but also across generations and time.

Conclusion
the apostles geographic witness was.....
Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria
And the Paul witnessed to the gentiles as we know

the apostles eschatological witness is....
through the bible and church to all generations and corners of the earth

Acts 1:8 -

While tongues and is a wonderful gift without prophesy the apostles could not witness across times as well. The signj was tongues and prophesy not just tongues(but some over time we can look at this) The fullest context of witness in acts 1 is not limited to preaching the gospel if it was Jesus could have said something like 'angelous' but the fact that he choose the word 'mar'-toos' (by implication martyr) speaks volumes of what exactly he meant by witness. In peter's first sermon he was no longer afraid, he no longer denied christ he Got up and preached to 1000's of people without the fear of death because he had received the power to be mar'-toos. The power of signs and wonders came upon him as he healed sick, spoke in tongues and demonstrated many 'wonderous works' of God. But the power to witness promised was not that they would travel by boat to somalia (though they could if the spirit willed) and preach a message in tongues for 45 minutes(no such account in the bible) but it was the power to be a mar'-toos for christ which requires more than just speaking in tongues(sign of prophetic fulfillment)

If we examine Acts 2 in a similar fashion we will see many wonderous things of Gods word. It takes great humility and prayer to humble oneself to be taught but as his word says a contrite heart he will not despise

Stay blessed

Hi Alive
I am not insisting on the fact peter spoke Hebrew on pentecost as like i said i was only inferring. To me it is quite possible he did get up and preach his sermon in fluent greek in light of the historical information provided it may well have been Greek(I also heard Jesus may have taught in Greek). It could be Galileans spoke Greek with a discernible Galilean accent in which case it would make a whole lot of sense. But for argument sake i will stand corrected and infer peters sermon was in Greek, however the key point i was trying to make that peters sermon that saved 3000 people who heard it was indeed in a intelligible language that everyone understood understand (either Greek or Hebrew we are both inferring though i admit history might favour the Greek argument) i have even herad that many manuscripts in those days were written in greek as well.

As i said in the last post witness or mar'toos is a term that was intended to proclaim the gospel across space and time. This confusion of what empowering for mar'toos means comes as a result of a literal english interpretation of mar'toos to mean testifying of Christ across diverse geographical regions whereas the word mar'toos and 'utmost ends of the earth' (phrase having eschatological and not just mere geographical meaning).

I have learnt from your post Alive, and i hope others have as well as too often pride of our hearts makes it impossible to learn what the spirit wants to teach us we'd rather believe tozer than the holy spirit.

Personally, i dont mind being rebuked or corrected on my character or doctrine as i see this as Gods love "those i love i also chastise" and this correction can be directly from the lord or from a brethren in Christ. si i agree with you about pride its something i had to deal with myself and the funniest thing i didn't even remotely realise it until a someone drew my attention to it in private. Bless that brother who shall remain nameless.

We should be constantly changing, (from faith to faith), constantly tweaking our doctrinal positions until we come to the fullness of the stature of Christ. Some doctrines need a complete overhaul, others only need minor adjustments

well said....

The Lord has called us to peace. To walk in peace.

When something rises up inside of me, it's sometimes not good (i.e. righteous indignation). I would like to think it is ALWAYS something good, but the reality is that it is not.

Most times, the Lord brings a situation or circumstance in my life to "heat up" as it were His Refiners fire in my life. The purpose of course is to prove me and test my love for Him and sometimes it causes dross to come to the surface (i.e. something rising up in my heart).

My responsibility is to recognize what the Holy Spirit is revealing/exposing to me so I can deal with it. Lay the axe to the root, repent and be ever so grateful once again for the ministry of the Holy Spirit and the Lord's process of sanctification.

Proverbs 27:6 Faithful [are] the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy [are] deceitful.

Pssalm 141:5 Let a righteous man strike me--it is a kindness; let him rebuke me--it is oil on my head. My head will not refuse it. Yet my prayer is ever against the deeds of evildoers;

Proverbs 27:7 He who is full (prideful, my comment) loathes honey, but to the hungry even what is bitter tastes sweet.

Of course we are not to take these verses to spiritually abuse people. It is hard to correct someone that you are not in relationship with and to be fair, it is equally hard to receive correction from a stranger. That's probably why it says, "Faithful are the wounds of a friend, rather than stranger".

The Lord is good, eh?

Blandina;

What's this?

He demolished the Apostle Paul's theology.

Of course we are not to take these verses to spiritually abuse people. It is hard to correct someone that you are not in relationship with and to be fair, it is equally hard to receive correction from a stranger. That's probably why it says, "Faithful are the wounds of a friend, rather than stranger".

I partially agree. There is spiritual abuse of people and even worse a spiritual abuse of scripture. But my contribution will be to remove the log of wood from my own eye that i may see clearly [no innuendo here just straight talk making things. I am simply using the word introspectively and sharing the results.

1.When we correct someone we dont know harshly or we are not able to receive admonition its a sign of pride and a need for increased walk in love (something we must let the spirit work on)

2. A completely humble, contrite and broken heart will recognize the voice of the lord be it written, prophetic or even through a stranger (was Philip not used as a stranger to expound upon the word to the Ethiopian? did jesus not speak to the lady at the well?) in fact relating back to the topic of this thread prophesy is very important in ministering to both believers and unbelievers. witnessing as christ spoke it "mar'toos" (by implication martyrdom) means we must indeed die. This unwillingnes to die to self means we can not mar'toos (witness). Mar'toos is not limited to verbal communication of the gospel. We communicate the gospel by how we relate to one another also.

3. When it comes to rebuking, correcting doctrine or restoring a brother who has fallen in sin the issue we should ask is ,"where does this unction originate from"
i have read things on threads or speaking to people in the flesh i wanted to respond to yet the spirit said no [flesh vs spirit what a struggle]. The key is where the unction comes from and the love by which we operate in. Does the word "dwell in us richly" as we rebuke, admonish and encourage or has this commission been substituted with a subjective interpretion of God that is a man made ideology

4. A carnal xtian(if such a person technically exists) lives in the realm of their emotions and will and not the spirit(i site corinth as such an example).If care is not taken they soon become unable to distinguish the spirit from thier own flesh. A tale tell sign of crnality is not alwas ovious sin.

a Few signs of carnal nature

Self gratification
Self Righteousness
Self importance
Self Ambition
Self worship
Self reliance (pride and subtle rebellion to God)
[others may indeed have more to add]

Relationship
I address this becauce cultivation of 'relationships' is at the heart of seeker-friendly assemblies. Instead of preaching christ crucified to a world that desperately needs a saviour we are told to cultivate relationships so we can "love them in". When peter preached his sermon (with intelligible words) he didnt hold back and make it more seeker friendly and less offensive. The apostles preached the gospel undilluted thats why im convinced they had the power they did. The gospel is a rock of offense. When we try to make the gospel more effective we lose all the power that comes with it.

As brethren when we walk in the love of God our relation to ourselves and mankind is automatically much better. But we must do things as the bible says we should not as a diluted seeker-friendly politically correct social gospel dictates.

Sanctification
Jesus prayed the father to sanctify us with is word. The refiners fire is not a pleasant or seeker-friendly. The "fire" as todd bentley or howard browne would have you believe is not primarily to make you laugh and lose self control and perform WWE wrestling manuevers on old ladies (how wicked is this "The holy spirit said i should kick her in the face") Walking in his fire is synonymous with a life time of long-suffering and sacrifice for him. "Your best life now" is demonically inspired and not of God.

To a carnal christian the things of God must gratify, please, make them happy, further ambition,make the feel important

Conclusion

Lets obey the explicit commandments of God as they apply to us as a NT church and let us first do so introspectively. Lets walk in love in how we relate. Lets develop a spirit of humility by which have teachable spirits.

I am almost sure this is to mean that before the Divine Meeting on the road, Saul thought he had it all figured out. The Spirit has a way of showing us that we do not. Thank you.

If this is what blandina meant, thank you for the clarification, Yes Paul was way off when it came to Jesus Christ before he met Him. So was I, Vondonican, out of body experience and stuff that was way out there, Jesus gave me revelation of Himself in me, by the Incorruptable Seed of the Father. What shaking it was, I can see where Paul came from and where the Holy Spirit took him. I thought I was doing the work of God also. I guess that is why I am so protective of Pauls Gospel. "Christ in you the hope of Glory, a real person in me that changes lives and brings us to the Father, now a new creature.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Galatians 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

Thank you;

In Christ: Phillip

It only took 3 years in Arabia for Paul for the revelation of Christ in Him. It only took 30 years for me. Bull headed? Ya think?

In Christ: Phillip

Amen, I'm there with you. This thing really does work by Revelation. Because the flesh cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. That's what Jesus meant. Us knuckle heads have to hear the Faith and Grace message aver and over. Praise God He is not angry anymore!

1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

Amazing that God would reveal these things to everyday "nobodies"!

Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

5Now there were then residing in Jerusalem Jews, devout and God-fearing men from every country under heaven.

6And when this sound was heard, the multitude came together and they were astonished and bewildered, because each one heard them [the apostles] speaking in his own [particular] dialect.

7And they were beside themselves with amazement, saying, Are not all these who are talking Galileans?

8Then how is it that we hear, each of us, in our own (particular) dialect to which we were born?

9Parthians and Medes and Elamites and inhabitants of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and [the province of] Asia,

10Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and the transient residents from Rome, both Jews and the proselytes [to Judaism from other religions],

11Cretans and Arabians too--we all hear them speaking in our own native tongues [and telling of] the mighty works of God!

12And all were beside themselves with amazement and were puzzled and bewildered, saying one to another, what can this mean?
13But others made a joke of it and derisively said, they are simply drunk and full of sweet [intoxicating] wine.

Review
1. 120 are gathered together in one accord waiting for the promise. A loud audible sound is heard from the heavens and tongues of fire settle on all these people individually.
2. They were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in tongues
3. Jews from all over the world that was staying in Jerusalem for Pentecost heard the loud violent sound from heaven and all rush out to see what it was.
4. They heard the apostles speak in their own native tongue/dialect and were amazed.
5. They heard the wondrous works of God but didn’t know what it meant.
6. The Jews mockingly suggested that what they were witnessing was induced by alcohol.
7. Whilst the apostles spoke in tongues they hadn’t heard or understood the gospel(they only mocked the tongues).
8. Up until this point the apostles did not address the Jews directly they were simply speaking in tongues and declaring the works of God(of which could have included Christ). The inspired utterance at this point was tongues.
9. Up until this point there is no rational dialogue as such.

Continued.....
14But Peter, standing with the eleven, raised his voice and addressed them: You Jews and all you residents of Jerusalem, let this be [explained] to you so that you will know and understand; listen closely to what I have to say.

15For these men are not drunk, as you imagine, for it is [only] the third hour (about 9:00 a.m.) of the day;

16But [instead] this is [the beginning of] what was spoken through the prophet Joel:

Review
1. Peter Gets up and raises his voice (for-nay) to address the Jews. At this point his speech is not spirit inspired tongues but spirit inspired preaching and expounding of the word (another one of the gifts)
2. Peter we can infer peter was in the spirit but the Greek word fo-nay' (to address /articulate / voice implies rational speech inspired of the holy spirit as opposed to inspired speaking in tongues.
3. When peter got up to address them whilst he was in the spirit he spoke intelligible words inspired of the spirit (this is another gift required for witnessing)
4. He expounded upon the prophesy of Joel in detail.

Continued........
37Now when they heard this they were stung (cut) to the heart, and they said to Peter and the rest of the apostles (special messengers), Brethren, what shall we do?

38And Peter answered them, Repent (change your views and purpose to accept the will of God in your inner selves instead of rejecting it) and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of and release from your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

39For the promise [of the Holy Spirit] is to and for you and your children, and to and for all that are far away, [even] to and for as many as the Lord our God invites and bids to come to Himself.(E)

40And [Peter] [i]solemnly and earnestly witnessed (testified) and admonished (exhorted) with much more continuous speaking and warned (reproved, advised, encouraged) them, saying, be saved from this crooked (perverse, wicked, unjust) generation.

41Therefore those who accepted and welcomed his message were baptized, and there were added that day about 3,000 souls.

42And they steadfastly persevered, devoting themselves constantly to the instruction and fellowship of the apostles, to the breaking of bread [including the Lord's Supper] and prayers.

Review
1. When they heard the message of peter they were stunned. And all asked what they must do.
2. Peters reply was
“Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”
3. Verse 40 WITH MANY OTHER LOGOS
*40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.*
4. Peter's preaching was an inspired expounding upon the logos for the purpose of revealing Christ. He didn’t 'preach in tongues' as mystical as that sounds that wasn’t the case.

Conclusion
When reading Acts 2 for years I didn’t see the events as stated in the bible only the romantic version of hyper Pentecostalism. I was taught strangers from all over the world came to Jerusalem and on the day of Pentecost heard the gospel preached but this is not what the bible says. Yes indeed they heard the wondrous works of God declared in their own language, but their response was to mock the apostles. Nobody was brought to the knowledge of Christ because they heard God praised in there own dialect/language. Peter gets up and addresses them inspired by the Holy Spirit to expound upon the logos and bring these people to repentance. A supernatural sound brought the Jews out of their houses, men speaking in tongues grabbed their attention , but it was the holy spirit exposition of the word (Joel and later we are told many more logos) that saved the 3000.
What I am driving at is this it took more than one gift to effectively minister and bring 3000 folk to repentance tongues grabbed their attention but it was the prophetic inspired utterance that brought them to repentance. Tongues is only one gift of many needed for witnessing. The church is Christ embassy and he has given many gufts to enable his embassadors fulfil the kingdom mandate.

(witness=mar'toos)

Extra Note

dialektos
dee-al'-ek-tos
From G1256; a (mode of) discourse, that is, “dialect”: - language, tongue.

the greek word dialektos was often translated dialect, tongue or language and is different from glossa. The implication being controvertially i might add was that on pentecost the 120 received the gifts of languages (dialektos). The ability to speak in other intelligible languages is the gift of languages (this is usually a corporate manifestation) but the gift of tongues (gloce'-sah) is private and intended for communion and prayer to God thats why its a heavenly language. gloce'-sah

There is a distinction between

The gift of dialektos (dialects or languages)
The gift of gloce'-sah (unknown tongues)

dialektos
gloce'-sah requires interpretation while dialektos does not as people will hear there own language as that is what you will be speaking. if dialektos is used to preach a message (in tongues) then by implication the person witnessing must be able to understand the dialektos(supernatural interpretation) as people will ask questions. If peter preached in dialektos he had to understand when he was spoken back to as evidenced in Acts 2 "they asked him what they must do", "He replied". So if peter didnt speak in a common language to all assembled if he did preach in dialektos he understood in dialektos also. This means we cant babble gibberish and say we are witnessing as you cant witness to someone if you cant understand the questions they ask you.

gloce'-sah
This is the tongues of prayer language and doesnt come with interpretation by default. This was the tongues paul addressed in Corinthians. A stranger would not be confused if he walked into an assembly and heard the apostles in dialektos as this would be his native tongue, so what went on in corinth was not dialektos as on pentecost. The issue in corinth was not dialektos it was glossa. The purpose of dialektos was to spread the gospel the purpose of glossa is worship and communion. On the day of pentecost the gospel was spread to every major ethnos (nation/ethnicity).

Only an authentic gift of dialektos can be used to spread the gospel to people we cannot communicate with. What is widespread in church 98% of the time is glossa and not dialektos. I have heard of people today still hearing wonderous works of God in their own dialects but i am yet to meet anyone with a demonstrable gift of dialektos (divine ability to communicate Gods word in any language, being able to also respond to unbelievers questions in that same foreign tongue)

Tongues are one of many gifts given for witnessing. Tongues are a sign. There are two context for tongues both corporate and private.

1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

I must say like Paul said, “I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:” (1 Cor 14.18).

If those of you (who do not speak in tongues) are content in your walk with God... praise His holy name! I don’t think any less of you. I am content in my walk with God speaking and praying in tongues... praise God for the gift(s)! I hope you can honestly say that you don’t think any less of me.

God bless us all,
Lisa

There are so much to pray about and for in these times.

I began to pray for some the other day and was overwhelmed. Then I said, what am I doing? This is too much for me - why aren't you praying in tongues I asked myself. The Bible says to pray in your mind when we pray in tongues. So we are not just making noise but we are aware in our minds what we are praying about. This way I am praying what God wants and not what I want.

I rarely pray in tongues in public and if I do it is quiet. It is for me to praise God and to pray to God with.

I would suggest everyone ask to pray in tongues. You wont be sorry you did! I began asking God for Truth before I ever knew Him. No matter what it was! I didn't care as long as it was the Truth. He loves it when our hearts are open to the Truth and seek it. He will surely give to those who ask. He did for me. He will for you! Glory to God

1Cr 14:2 For if your gift is the ability to speak in tongues, you will be talking to God but not to people, since they won't be able to understand you. You will be speaking by the power of the Spirit, but it will all be mysterious.

1Cr 14:4 A person who speaks in tongues is strengthened personally in the Lord, but one who speaks a word of prophecy strengthens the entire church. Amen

I must say like Paul said, “I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:” (1 Cor 14.18). If those of you (who do not speak in tongues) are content in your walk with God... praise His holy name! I don’t think any less of you. I am content in my walk with God speaking and praying in tongues... praise God for the gift(s)! I hope you can honestly say that you don’t think any less of me. God bless us all, Lisa

I echo that sentiment praying in tongues (glossa) is a wonderful gift(has made me somewhat lazy in my prayer in the understanding). I encourage everyone to believe God for the gifts that will enable them to fulfill their divine calling. Many people believe the gift of tongues(dialektos) is less relevant today and this may be the case but people have confused this with the gift of tongues (glossa) which is still in force today. Many ignore tongues because we havent been taught the difference contextaully between the two. One (dialektos) was seen on pentecost and used that day to spread the gospel in one day to every corner of the earth through 3000 converts. The other is a private prayer language that can be used for personal spirtual edification and prophesy when interpretation is presented

Sidenote on tongues

glossa = private prayer language (often without interpretation)

dialektos = gift of speaking and understanding known languages

Anyone who claims to be able to witness the gospel in dialektos must be able to communicate like peter did(if his message was in tongues) answering the questions that was asked of him. Glossa is primarily for prayer (but can be the equivalent of prophesy where interpretation is present). Tongues (glossa) is a gift that the holy spirit still gives to his church today. Those who have it know just how much it is a blessing to be able to pray in tongues. For me its the koinoia(fellowship) with the giver off these gifts i cherish the most. Its his presence. Many have erroneously closed thier hearts to the blessings of God as they have assumed dialektos (tongues) is no longer as important which may be right but dialektos is earthly language while glossa is heavenly. The spirit still gives the gift of glossa to those who want it.

Addressing the original post:

I received the baptism of the Holy Spirit by 1)asking for it 2)seeking God Himself 3) realizing that I focused more on the sins of others than correcting my own sin.

I just heard Ravenhill preaching about this experience like it was God invading humanity, and something about it really interested me. I began setting time apart to pray at night, often falling asleep on the floor in prayer and waking up at different times in the morning.

I was working with a ministry at the time and just noticed this severe lack in my life and work; this experience that Ravenhill spoke of seemed to be the answer. I must say that whether it is has two sides.

The way it happened was very strange. Twice in one day I just began to weep and sort of slump on the floor. While on the way to church later this same day, yes, while driving (I got saved while driving, by the way), I was overcome with a sense of God I have never experienced before. I shouted and wept like a mad man (I am a pretty level-headed gent, too). As soon as I parked I again slumped and cried, hoping no one in the parking lot would see me. They would surely think I had lost it.

I happened, by God's grace I believe, upon Duncan Campbell's testimony of his experience and thought, hey man, that's me. I didn't speak in tongues, although I later tried and still today hold a view of ignorance on this subject (willing to hear everyone's view, not in opposition to any as long as the rest of your theology is correct).

The reason I said that the experience was a two-sided coin is this: I think that the baptism of the Holy Ghost is missing in much of our faith, but I expected God to almost "auto-pilot" my walk. In honesty, I thought I would see instant conversions and instant miracles, but the real change was directed at me. I went to prayer meetings at my church and would just weep and weep while I prayed.

I wish I could say I maintained my prayer life; but I didn't. I believe the experience is real and I hope to be filled once again (if not multiple times). I have since had ups and downs with my prayer life but still believe that it is God-honoring to seek to be filled with His Spirit.

Luke 12:50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!

Love to talk about the topic with anyone that will listen.

Had to throw this in, too:

Here are some preachers on this site that talk in detail about receiving a baptism of the Holy Ghost that I recommend:

Charles Finney

D L Moody

R A Torrey

Evan Roberts

Duncan Campbell

J Edwin Orr

Charles Culpepper

Paul Washer

Sword of the Lord Publishers has a booklet called "How Great Soulwinners Were Filled With the Holy Spirit," by John R Rice that includes testimonies of many of the above men. It's an eye-opening read every time I go back to it.

I received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit when I was 18. I recall another young lady who was a long time friend of mine also received the Baptism the same night. We prayed in tongues, and then began to sing in unison, a song neither of us had ever heard. Same words, same tune, unknown language, unknown tune, flawlessly. Oh the sweet, sweet presence of God that we felt. My life has never been the same since.

I remember reading a book called (I think), "They Speak with Other Tongues". It was by John Sherrill who was a writer for guideposts. He wrote for the magazine, but was not saved. After he was born again, he began to hear a lot about tongues. (This was during the Charismatic renewall.) He went on a quest to discover what this was all about. His story is very interesting, and I think would bless someone with questions about the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Having grown up a pentecostal, I just took it for granted, but many from denominational backgrounds have doubts and questions.

Some say there is no such thing as a "second blessing" and that we are baptized into Christ when we believe. I personally think we should study carefully the difference of being baptized into Christ and being baptized of him. some will say there is no difference. But i have a couple of questions that i would like to ask

1. Did the apostles not believe in Christ before Pentecost?

2.Had they not already received the holy spirit before pentecost?

3.If 1 & 2 are true then where the apostles not already believers and therefore baptized into Christ.

4.The disciples of John(the baptist) preached Jesus, yet had no knowledge of the existence of the holy spirit. How were they able to believe in the first place? and why was it that they believed in Jesus but it wasn't until the apostle prayed for them and laid hands that they received the baptism of the holy spirit and spoke in tongues?

5. Does the account of the apostles of john in acts and the Pentecost experience of the apostles not suggest that believers are not always baptized the moment they believe?
Is receiving of the initial gift of faith to believe in the messiah the same as receiving the empowerment for witness.

As I understand it, in John 20 they were born-again when Jesus gave them the Spirit.

In Acts 2 they were baptised in the Holy Spirit and Power.

2 separate experiences.

As to their knowledge of the Holy Spirit, please reread John 1.

Acts 19 (Amplified Bible)

Acts 19
1WHILE APOLLOS was in Corinth, Paul went through the upper inland districts and came down to Ephesus. There he found some disciples.

2And he asked them, Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed [on Jesus as the Christ]? And they said, No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.

3And he asked, Into what [baptism] then were you baptized? They said, Into John's baptism.

4And Paul said, John baptized with the baptism of repentance, continually telling the people that they should believe in the One Who was to come after him, that is, in Jesus [having a conviction full of joyful trust that He is Christ, the Messiah, and being obedient to Him].

5On hearing this they were baptized [again, this time] in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6And as Paul laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them; and they spoke in [foreign, unknown] tongues (languages) and prophesied.

7There were about twelve of them in all.

While we can infer correctly that the disciples of john should have known about the holy spirit the actual fact is they didn't as stated by the scripture . The disciples of John said for themselves

2And he asked them, Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed [on Jesus as the Christ]? And they said, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."

Remember explicit always trumps inferred truth. While we can rightly infer that they should have known about the holy spirit we can see explicitly from what they said that they didn't. There is a significance to them being believers who hadn't yet been baptized. Appolos i think is another such example but can remember where in acts it is.

I think you are misunderstanding this reference to John's baptism. They were not quite 'apostles of john' (as an apostle is one who is sent on a mission), but rather disciples (followers of John), Jews who had not yet heard of Jesus Christ through faith in whom they would become eligible to receive the Holy Spirit.

Is receiving of the initial gift of faith to believe in the messiah the same as receiving the empowerment for witness.

I believe it can be. But, as we see in Acts 19, if Christ has not been preached, there is no Holy Ghost to them.

The point im trying to get to is that [is the hearing of the word(gospel) that produces faith the same as receiving the holy spirit?]. The disciples of john were not preached to they were baptize as they already believed in Jesus. Paul didnt ask if they believed he could discern they did thats why he asked them "Did you receive the Holy Spirit *****when you believed***** [on Jesus as the Christ]? " to which they said a resounding NO.

[b]
Lets look at the dialogue / Sequence of events
[/b]
Paul: Did you receive the Holy Spirit when[a] you believed?
Disciples: No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.
Paul: Then what baptism did you receive?
Disciples: Johns baptism
Paul: John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus

On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues[b] and prophesied. 7 There were about twelve men in all

1. They already believed as Paul doesn't question this or even preach Christ. He merely asked them if they recieved the holy spirit when they believed to which there answer was no.
2. They didnt know there was a holy spirit.
3.After explaining to them paul laid his hands on these already believing disciples and they recieved the holy spirit.

Did you receive the Holy Spirit when[a] you believed(in who? in what?)?
Why ask this question if all believers recieved the baptism of the holy spirit when they believe?

Luke 24:45 (Amplified Bible)

45Then He [thoroughly] opened up their minds to understand the Scripture

The disciples were already believers before pentecost. In fact Peter had already called him the messiah before his death to which Jesus said "Flesh and blood has not revealed this to you......"

maybe this will make what i am saying clearer.

As long as Jesus was with them, how could they believe He was in them? Yes they believed, but did not know the another Person would be their lives when the Statement of Jesus "I will come" was a prophesy of Christ in You The Hope of Glory. AS the Apostles did not need to fast while Jesus was with them, but when He was Gone our of their site, then they would have need to fast. Fast for What?
The Spirit of Christ in you is not the physical properties of seeing, hearing and touching the Lord Jesus, this is what our Fast is. His Spirit born again in us had to be brought to light by Paul explaining the Mystery, "Christ in you the hope of Glory". The How of this; Galatians 2:20-21 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Forth demention living, as if it happened the same time we were born again. No time in Heaven. When I was born again I was crucified with Him then and He is now my Spirit, where before Satan was my nature and spirit. Now we are the Sons of God.

In Christ: Phillip

As long as Jesus was with them, how could they believe He was in them?

To add to what was said. Paul asked them if they were baptized when they believed and they said no. They had not received or even known about the baptism of the holy spirit until Paul asked the question of them. Paul didn't persuade them that Christ was already in them as they were believers. He baptized them, laid hands on them and they received the holy ghost. Faith in Christ Jesus does indeed Christ is in our hearts but is the initial measure of faith the same as being immersed in the spirit. Is receiving a measure of faith the same as being immersed in it (speaking allegorically)

Thanks for reply. I will consider what you said.

Please could you clarify the second sentence from your previous post? Are you implying that they already had heard of Christ and therefore the Holy Spirit (of which they had not heard) was IN them (unknown to them)?

In Acts paul asks a couple of diciples a simple question

"Did you receive the Holy Spirit when[a] you believed?"

His question tells us they were believers in Christ. Belief in this context can only refer to christ as the mesiah.

These disciples were found in ephesus . While they were indeed baptised in the baptism of john they were followers of jesus. As stated previosuly they believed in Jesus but in thier own words had never heard of the holy spirit. These same diciples paul laid hands on followed him around on his ministry work to the churches for two years.

The common inference is because these followers had recieved the baptism of john they must have been john the baptist diciples. Personally it makes no difference to me what is clear is that they were "BELIEVERS[in christ the mesiah]" and had not been baptised in the name of the lord or recieved the holy spirit. Faith comes by hearing so if they believed christ was the mesiah they had already been preached to.

The thief on the cross was not baptised in the holy spirit or speak in tongues yet he was saved was he not? what about the heroes of faith in Hebrews 11 did was any of them baptised in the holy spirit? What about young pastor timothy we know he was indeed saved but we also know he recieved special impartation of power when paul laid hands onb him at his ordination.

Again i ask is the gift of faith the same as the baptism of the holy spirit.

Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible
John 7:39
Verse 39. Of the Spirit. Of the Holy Spirit, that should be sent down to attend their preaching and to convert sinners.
For the Holy Ghost was not yet given. Was not given in such full and large measures as should be after Jesus had ascended to heaven. Certain measures of the influences of the Spirit had been always given in the conversion and sanctification of the ancient saints and prophets; but that abundant and full effusion which the apostles were permitted afterward to behold had not yet been given. See Ac 2:1-12; 10:44-45.

Jesus was not yet glorified. Jesus had not yet ascended to heaven--to the glory and honour that awaited him there. It was a part of the arrangement in the work of redemption that the influences of the Holy Spirit should descend chiefly after the death of Jesus, as that death was the procuring cause of this great blessing. Hence he said (Joh 16:7), "It is expedient for you that I go away; for if I go not away the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart I will send him unto you." See also Joh 16:8-12; 14:15-16,26. Comp. Eph 4:8-11.

{i} "the Spirit" Isa 44:3; Joe 2:28; Joh 16:7; Ac 2:17,33*

John 14:16-21 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

If He has come again, where is He? He is born again in every believer. What does it take to be saved? "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved". How do we believe? Who has convicted us and shows us we need a Savior? The Holy Spirit convicts the world from outside, The Holy Spirit convicts and give the Faith of the Son of God born again in us to the believer and we have the Whole bucked Of Grace. Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. We can argue all we want about the "grace" or the "faith", but it takes both for us to be a son. The Father is Father because He has birthed an Incorruptable Seed in us, the Seed if Jesus Christ the only Begotten Son, that makes us sons. Without the Seed from the Father there is no possibility of sonship, or that He is our Father.

How are we fathers? Think on this.

Has He Come? If the answer is Yes!, He has given us the Holy Spirit by baptism of the Holy Spirit.

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Has He already received us? Are we not already seated with Him in the Heavenlies.

1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Eph 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

In Christ: Phillip