The bible tells us numerous times when people had to be dealt with by God so my question is should God smite 'so called Christians' today acting like non-Christians publicly? The reason I ask this is because there is a member of our church that is a married women who has left her husband to be with someone half her age. She is a mother of six and is in public scrutiny and our Pastor and elders have talked to her but she still has not turned back. The thing that gets me is she publicly thanks God for being good in her life. I mean who says that kind of thing? When Moses' sister stepped out of line she got dealt with, when Lot's wife looked back she got dealt with, and the couple in the book of acts that lied they got dealt with. So should God still be dealing with people the ways he has been in the Bible?
To smite or not to smite
I vote not smite, sounds like your pastors have the issue under control. Whatever is bound on earth is bound in heaven, this is the context of Matthew 18:
“If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
“Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be[e] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
“Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.”
The woman has clearly rejected the word, if she chooses to live in sin, then her blood is on her own head. The elders and pastor have fulfilled their obligations.
BTW you have an awesome pastor and elders! I've been in places where this 'elephant in the room' is brushed under the carpet.
God bless you!
In Christ,
Earl J
^^^ Our pastor does a good job at what he was called for.
And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? 55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. 56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village. Luke 9:54-56
Matthew 9:13
13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
why do you think the woman was at the well in the hot part of the day?
Because all the other women were there in the cool part. She could not stand the scrutiny because of her life. And Jesus went all that way to not condemn her and we see the results of that. She preached to a whole town and after, they believed.
Love and Grace go far. That's how He gets us to stop sinning. we never get Sanctified because we are afraid of torment. We allow Him to change us From the Inside because we see His great Love and Favor.
^^^ She was open for repentance. What would have happened if she stayed in her ways? And how do you explain the couple that lied in the book of Acts post-Christ?
Praise God, I'm glad to hear the woman will listen.
The key to understanding the Acts issue is in the word used for 'Sin' there. W/O going into massive detail, I believe it's only used there or once some other place. -working from memory here- Basically, the word carries the idea that sin was born, allowed to mature, bear fruit and deliver in completion. So these people had this in mind to do the whole time. It was not a 'spur of the moment' item. Who knows how long God was trying to let them see Jesus. They were fake and did not want to repent.
How most preachers tell the story does not even fit the New Cov't love Grace and Mercy. "Bless God you better get right or get left!" Hey Church, you better prove to God you love'em or He'll kill you dead..." that is of another Gospel right there.
I understand the situation- though I'm not directly involved. People do things and they don't understand why they do them or how to stop.
Most of the time, all they get is condemned and no love which causes them to leave. Snarly people who kill the wounded should go back and remember how lovely Jesus is.
If we see Him, He changes us from the Inside. From Glory to Glory, one moment of Grace to another.
Before we gave our hearts to Him, we were full of sin. But when presented with Jesus and all His Love and loveliness, all we wanted was Him. Things to consider---
^^^ No I was talking about women at the well not the women from the first post I made. The women at the well was open for change and the women in my first post is still in her own ways.
So should God still be dealing with people the ways he has been in the Bible?
I would think this is something for God to decide. Don't you also think so?
I understand your question AND issue. It makes a body sick to see them sin so boldly with so much arrogance and then go around 'praising the LORD!' This sickens God as well. I would suppose in God's economy she still has a reason to be among the living which means God is not done with her yet. But what he plans to do, we do not know.
However, Scripture does inform us that one should not fellowship with someone who is an adulterer, 1 Corinthians 5:11-13 (NASB): "But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one. 12For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? 13But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES."
Scripture has the final word on this issue, don't you think? Issue gets pretty tough when it involves your own family members...
^^^ I couldn't agree with you more. My wife and I do not fellowship with her any longer since the church found out what she was doing behind closed doors. And to top it off she was having a secret affair with another member of our church since 2001. We didn't find out until last summer when everything unraveled itself. And to top if more this women is my wife's aunt so yeah it's tough when it involves family.
I have a similar situation in my family. I know the biblical precedent for the body and I would mention a couple of things since we are now in a similar situation.
If you were in sin how would you want others to treat you? To love you and affirm you in it so that it becomes comfortable and you harden your heart to God? Or would you desire that they do whatever possible to bring you to your senses even at the sake of them having to separate themselves from you for what ever time it took?
For those who do not disfellowship a brother or sister who will not turn from their sin, what do they do with the aspect of leaven teaching. Does not God teach us over and over that a little leaven (sin) affects the whole batch? It does not say a few but all! What of our little children and the babes who will be taught that light and darkness can indeed coexist, that is if we allow the one practicing sin to be apart of the fellowship? Does maintaining the company of one practicing sin not also teach others it is OK to do likewise?
The trend today is to live and let live. Tolerance is the order of the day in which we live and it has crept into the church just as it is in society. To not judge at all even though scripture requires us to for the health of ourselves as well as the body. God desires the bride he will present to His Son to be pure and sanctified. She will pure and sanctified by God but will we work towards this process or against it. If agaisnt it then we oppose the very God we love?
^^^ Ravenhill and Walker preached about cheap grace.
This is a very interesting thread I must admit :). I am saddened by it for the fallen sister but at the same time am reminded of my sin and so I must drop my stone that my flesh so willing wishes to cast. I say that not to say that others posting on this thread are casting stones though. I believe there are some good answers to the question. In regards to the two that Lied in the New Testament and were killed on spot I believe the reason for this was they lied not only to the Apostles but to the Holy Spirit and this lie wasn't to show modesty but to gain some Honor of their own and we find God doesn't share His Honor or His Glory.
As for how to deal with the lady, don't deal with her at all God will take care of it. May I ask when you were dead in your trespasses in Sin did you prefer God smiting you or showing you mercy? If this woman is professing Christianity but is clearly not a christian then she is already condemned and doesn't need more Judgment but Grace. The Word says "It's the Kindness of God that leads us to repentance"
I understand standing up for Righteousnessake but if we pay attention to our beloved beattitudes the very next beattitude is blessed are the Meriful. We recently had a dear family friend do something very similar with a very violent man. She was blind and stumbled as we all are prone to do. We warned her and warned her but always let her know that we are always there for her when she was ready to return to Christ. We were a constant testimony against her actions and she finally felt conviction for her action and is in the process of repentance. She was likely to remain in her situation or been more prone to if she thought her Christian friends and family were just so very angry with her, we weren't angry but some of us were hurt and so we expressed this to her lovingly.
God's people are like Sandpaper when applied properly can be used for great good but when we become over zealous and too coarse we will do more harm than good. Let the Lord do the buffeting and remain a faithful witness of God's loving Kindness to those that turn to Him in this ladies case turn BACK to Him.
Oh, you were speaking of another.
In that case, it seems to me that this person has forgotten the loveliness of Jesus. Usually this happens when law is preached over the pulpit. OR the person never had an encounter with God to begin with.
And what happens is this, we THINK we need something more than what is found in Christ, so we set out to self-provide. That is called idolatry. The adultery in the physical is not the problem, the spiritual adultery of providing for self is the problem. And she thinks she needs something that God has not intended for her.
you know, Paul was accused of preaching to much Grace. How can you preach to much Grace? You can preach false Grace though.
So shall we disregard scripture and pursue our own logic (which by the way is the logic of the world) We cast them out as scripture so clearly instructs. Not because we want to execute discipline but as a parent who loves his child. We look to the long term. The problem today is no one wants to discipline their children. Who wants to raise a hand to their child as it is more painful for the one having to discipline than the one receiving it. We do what is hard because we love. Scripture says one who does not discipline their child hates him. How then do you argue with God in this regard. His ways are not the ways of the world as they run contrary to what the natural man holds to. So when the Lord looks to present His glorious Son with a beautiful bride should we not follow His instructions on how to maintain her purity until the day of consummation?
Once again we are talking about one who is in the body of fellowship who calls himself or in this case herself a Christian. There should already be a loving relationship of fellowship with this person. This person should have previously known and enjoyed the common oneness in Christ with those in fellowship. If this be the case the appeal to separate will be difficult for both parties. Those having to exercise disfellowship and the one who must be cast out. It is done to bring that one to experience the loss of what they prize so earnestly if indeed they are saved. God being first in their life is not evident by their life style. God does not desire that they be comforted by their fellow saints when this person values sin more than God. This separation from Him is not OK. Neither is this spiritual separation form the fellow saints OK. If one is practicing sin then the body is now entertaining a dead member in fellowship. They are no longer good for themselves or their fellow saints. They are detrimental to all. What unity do they participate in if they serve the flesh amongst those who Love God foremost and above all things. Shall they rebel against their first love to be comforted by their second (the saints). No! Scripture is clear and pristine on this matter. So much so that even those who are not born again and yet call themselves Christian should likewise be cast out so that they may not assume and receive assurance of what does not exist (false assurance of salvation).
Once again, it is done in love. Why do people not understand this? What culture does is from a logic not born of God. Therefore we must not succumb to worldly logic but to to the word of the lamb who gives His life for the church. The flesh of those who fellowshipped with Christ did not want Him to go to the cross. Why ? They wanted Him to spare Himself the pain that He would suffer on behalf of others.
If we all suffer because of a brother or sisters transgression so be it, but lets not avoid it to keep the peace. Our goal is that they be brought back into right relationship, which should be the most important thing in their life though sin desires they forsake it for its fleeting pleasure. It is good to maintain communication with the so as to point them back to their first love. It is wrong however to expose the body to those who practice sin. What they hold to and practice can spread and infect it adversely. God has taught this so many times in scripture! Do we now question the instruction?
Someone please appeal to the Leaven aspect of this situation, for the love of God, and secondly for the love of the body.
A church that I attended for almost ten years had to deal with a very difficult situation involving an associate pastor. He had been unfaithful to his wife with another woman in the church although very few of those details were released or discussed. He had been confronted by the elders and the Pastors and remained beligerant. The pastor took the difficult decision to remove him not only from his position but also from the church and asked that no one in the church fellowship with him. Obviously there was all kinds of emotions and " camps," within the church. Yet, let me tell you of the sheer joy, when two months later this man, this broken man came before the congregation and openly confessed his sin and begged forigiveness, which was readliy and joyfully given. I think the strongest person in the whole story was his wife who had not only suffered the pain of adultery, but also the public humiliation. She, to me, was a true warrior for Christ. Yet we see here the beauty of following the Word of God. Many things may change as the decades and centuries roll on, attitudes and customs and taboos, yet praise God His Word never changes and is as powerful, when followed ,as it was the day that it was written.........brother Frank
Is it wrong to say that she ought to be expelled form the fellowship in accordance with the scriptures quoted by ginnyrose? There has to be a striving for purity and accountability among the believers and if someone is in rebellion and refuses to listen to the elders, there ought ot be church discipline (Mt 18:16-18). It will either put her to shame and lead to repentance and restoration, or it will remove her and be a part of a purification process for the church. I know that no such "harshness" is praticed nowadays but it is scriptural and would have kept many churches from self-destroying from the inside out.
Edited to say I hadn't read page 2 before posting. A person should pray for that woman that it will turn out for her as for the pastorin Apollus's story. Thanks for sharing this!
^^^Our pastor has taken away her privileges to vote on church issues and attend church business meetings but she is still welcome to sit and listen to sermons whenever she wants. For me I'm indifferent to that decision.
Sexual sin is almost put on a different shelf than any other sin. It penetrates bone marrow and it entangles the two spirits together. The effects can scar ones soul for a lifetime.
Does he still accept her tithe?
Zac Poonen says that the CFC churches put a sign on their collection basket at the back of the church and it says, "if you have ought against your brother, God does not want your offering and neither do we".
^^^I don't know.
1 Corinthians 5:11-13 makes it so clear (edit: what a church's response to this should be that is- not about question that is title of thread):
"But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person."
By not actually removing a professing Christian in open sin from a fellowship the message is being given to everyone that you can live in sin and yet still be saved in the end. Yet the Bible is clear that to join with Christ and the people of God one must forsake the pleasures of sin (Hebrews 11:25-26, John 3:18-21). God is clear in His word that one cannot have both. Pleasure in unrighteousness hinders one from really believing the truth and results in damnation (2 Thess. 2:13 makes clear). Living in sin is actually a rejection of the grace of God, because the grace of God is given to us to deliver us from our sins to truly serve God.
Titus 2:11-14: "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works."
The New Testament epistles where grace is constantly emphasized also constantly warn that those who continue in sin will not inherit God's kingdom. Sexual sin is particularly (among other sins) warned against as a work of the flesh that will bring damnation. The story Appolus shared shows how a fellowship putting one in open sin out will show the person that their sin is grievous to God and MUST be repented of. "Must" is the key word. If that had not been done, the man he spoke of would have thought that "he won." Yet not letting him win was the most loving thing to do, as obeying God's word always is.
Ephesians 5:5-6: "For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience."
Galatians 5:19-21: "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."
Do we take the word of God seriously?
There's been a lot of great advice in this thread. I'm also going through a similar situation in my family. A husband has left a wife and 4 kids with little to no warning. Turns out he had a girlfriend with which he had an apartment that he was paying for. He was paying for this and spending time there while he was supposedly working late. He was also paying for this while his own household fell into enormous debt. He basically spent all the money on this woman and neglected to pay any of his bills.
It's something out of a soap opera and not a Christian home. Being that he was and is a professed Christian I took the general stand that we should take with a Christian. This is what most have stated in that I'm not having anything to do with him, and am asking that my wife, who has known him far longer than myself, have no contact with him. I've prayed 1 Corithians 5:5 over him. The outcome that we must seek is reconciliation. All of the "shunning" and hard words and tough love is for one reason. That reason is to have them restored to right relationship with God.
This situation has caused me to re-evaluate my position on divorce and salvation. As far as the salvation issue goes with the original poster and myself. If you're Calvanist, they were never saved. If you're Arminian then they have lost their salvation. Someone mentioned darkness and light not occupying the same space and this is a great example. Sin was also mentioned as having to be strived against.
I think striving against sin is the problem, but not the way you all may think. I don't think that we should strive against sin as much as press in to God. If God saved us without our help He can deliver us from sin as well and does. The Apostle Paul called people foolish who would believe that they were saved through grace and yet delivered from sin through their own efforts.
This is the maybe the greatest evil in the church today. We are told in many churches that we shouldn't drink because we'll do stupid things and be unhappy. True, but then you stumble and realize that doing stupid things can actually make you happy. It may only be for a season, but by the time you figure it out you've gone a long way from where you started. The drinking thing is only an example of the humanistic, selfish and narcissistic religion of the day. Whether you're the young son or the old son in the parable of the prodigal. If you're the young son the fun of sin will turn to grief and if you're the older son the pride of your efforts will turn to a self-centered view of the world. And that's the problem in sin. The problem isn't the drinking. The problem is pride, selfishness and rebellion. When we are saved we are purged of these things and so we don't sin. Not that we will never do these things, but we will not as a life style.
In my situation I think that we have an example of an older son who said all the right things and even DID all the right things. The problem is that from the beginning the Right Thing was never in him. He was in himself and it was about him, even the good things. It was the outside in life of an unbeliever and not the inside out life of a believer. An unbeliever does good things to make themselves feel better, get better or get better stuff. A believer who has been regenerated by the power of the blood of Christ has been made better, has been made to feel better, and has been GIVEN the best thing. His life is a reflection of that.
If the church does not correct its approach to the Gospel and sin these situations are only going to become more common. We preach against sin as if sin is the issue. Sin is the roadsign for a heart that has strayed. Sin is the result of rebellion to God. Jesus saves us from our sins. Jesus saves, not us. Preach Jesus and love your neighbor as yourself. As for me, I've done some terrible things to wife in the past and hurt her tremendously. What I needed and what she gave me was a stone wall that said, "You can repent or you can go away." Praise God that if we repent He WILL forgive us our sins. This should be our response to these people. I love you, but in that love I'll have nothing to do with you. If you repent though, there are welcoming arms waiting for you.
Since Growingone has so adequately applied scripture correctly for this occasion, maybe this should be shared with the Pastor and Elders as they may have temporarily lost all senses and forgotten such scriptures exist.
This will be my last entry on this thread as Growingone has presented the word of God so that worldly logic is exposed for what it is.
I would however like to exit giving an extreme critique of those who compromise scripture governing in the flesh by one who also discerns and evaluates from the flesh. Flesh to flesh or should I say the results of the blind leading the blind.
How will this woman bear such painful correction as has been placed upon her by this Pastor? Does this Pastor not realize the toll this will take upon this dear woman? Has he no feelings? What will become of her now that her right to vote within the congregation has been confiscated? I cannot imagine the shame this woman must bear as she sits amongst the brethern and partakes of the body and blood of Christ. Thank God that she has the saints beside her to console such a grievous loss. How does she sleep at night knowing that when the church comes to vote on whether to increase the fund for janitorial services that her vote that could be very well the deciding vote will be left out? I must admit that had this form of correction conjured up by this pastor been exercised in the earlier church, how different scripture might have been on this subject. Oh that he were there to instruct and counsel the apostles and equip the Church with such an effective instruction. We know God to be all knowing but maybe just maybe......no I will not go there.
May God's word be followed in love and fear.
Unfortunately, the tithe governs a lot of actions or lack of actions in the tithing church. And it governs what is preached, because you don't want to offend those who pay the bills. You may not like this, but it is true.
We need to quit adjusting the Word and adjust to it, instead.
Hi lylewise,How will this woman bear such painful correction as has been placed upon her by this Pastor? Does this Pastor not realize the toll this will take upon this dear woman? Has he no feelings? What will become of her now that her right to vote within the congregation has been confiscated? I cannot imagine the shame this woman must bear as she sits amongst the brethern and partakes of the body and blood of Christ. Thank God that she has the saints beside her to console such a grievous loss. How does she sleep at night knowing that when the church comes to vote on whether to increase the fund for janitorial services that her vote that could be very well the deciding vote will be left out? I must admit that had this form of correction conjured up by this pastor been exercised in the earlier church, how different scripture might have been on this subject. Oh that he were there to instruct and counsel the apostles and equip the Church with such an effective instruction. We know God to be all knowing but maybe just maybe......no I will not go there.
Are you serious?
The comments I've quoted don't seem to accord with your post at the start of p2.
I think he is being sarcastic, ATG.