2THESS 2:7 Could Micheal the Archangel be the restrainer if not why not?

Hi all,
Dont stone me yet!!!!Do we just use this passage because it suits our tribulation view?
This is commonly understood by many has the church been taken out and then comes the lawless one.
We can tell a few things from the text
a.it is a person because it says HE
b.He restrains
c.He can be taken out of the way
Both Michael and The Holy Spirit are persons.
Both Could restrain
Definitely Michael could be taken out of way but of the Holy Spirit I dont know for sure.
Michael is a military Angel and is described as a your prince in one passage.Could one of Michaels Jobs be as a restrainer?
I am not saying that it is the case but the arguement for Michael as the restrainer seems as valid as The Holy Spirit.
I invite the reader to show me where I am going wrong,
Thanks Staff

2 Thess 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.
8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

I would simply suggest that since the Holy Spirit did not tell us who it is that we should just be content not to know. I would also say that Paul never once mentioned Michael in any of his writings. Not only that, Michael is mentioned nowhere in the context nor in any epistles save Jude.

I know Marv Rosenthal who wrote the Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church, believes that. Cannot recall where the original thought came from.

What was the angels name that came to David after restraining the Prince of Persia?

Very interesting subject in light of current events by the way. Satan does nothing unless the Lord permits it and it looks like some restraint has been removed from a "prince" in the middle east. Could it be the Prince of Persia again? Whoever, it is unmistakeable that some restraint has been removed.

Question:

"Could Micheal the Archangel be the restrainer if not why not?"

Answer:

mi (who),ke (like), El (God)

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels.

Matthew Henry comments on Rev. 12:7,

"The parties - Michael and his angels on one side, and the dragon and his angels on the other: Christ, the great Angel of the covenant, and his faithful followers; and Satan and all his instruments. This latter party would be much superior in number and outward strength to the other; but the strength of the church lies in having the Lord Jesus for the captain of their salvation."

The devil stands before the woman throughout the old dispensation in an inimical attitude for the purpose of devouring her child as soon as it has been born. However, his efforts are vain. Christ is born, performs His work, and is exalted to highest glory at the right hand of the
Almighty. Now parallel with this effort of the dragon
against the woman runs the incident recorded in the
words of our text and which speaks of the battle of
the spirits in heaven.

"Michael and his angels fought against the dragon -
Michael was the man child which the woman brought
forth, as is evident from the context." (W.E. Vine)

"Michael and his angels fought against the dragon: by whom is meant not a created angel, with whom his name does not
agree, it signifying "who is as God"; nor does it
appear that there is anyone created angel that
presides over the rest, and has them at his command;
it seems best to interpret it of Jesus Christ, who is
equal with God, is his fellow, is one with the Father,
and in whom the fulness of the Godhead dwells bodily:
he is the Archangel, the first of the chief princes,
the head of all principality and power, who is on the
side of the Lord's people, pleads their cause, defends
their persons, and saves them;see Jud.1:9;" (John Gill)

Jud. 1:9 -

Jud 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel,.... "By whom is meant, not a created angel, but an eternal one, the Lord Jesus Christ; as appears from his name Michael, which signifies, "who is as God": and who is as God, or like unto him, but the Son of God, who is equal with God? and from his character as the archangel, or Prince of angels, for Christ is the head of all principality and power; and from what is elsewhere said of Michael, as that he is the great Prince, and on the side of the people of God, and to have angels under him, and at his command, Dan_10:21." (Gill)

"Yet Michael the archangel - Of this personage many
things are spoken in the Jewish writings “Rabbi Judah
Hakkodesh says: Wherever Michael is said to appear,
the glory of the Divine Majesty is always to be
understood.” Shemoth Rabba, sec. ii., fol. 104, 3. So
that it seems as if they considered Michael in some
sort as we do the Messiah manifested in the flesh."

"Let it be observed that the word archangel is never
found in the plural number in the sacred writings.
There can be properly only one archangel, one chief or
head of all the angelic host. Nor is the word devil,
as applied to the great enemy of mankind, ever found
in the plural; there can be but one monarch of all
fallen spirits. Michael is this archangel, and head of
all the angelic orders; the devil, great dragon, or
Satan, is head of all the diabolic orders. When these
two hosts are opposed to each other they are said to
act under these two chiefs, as leaders; hence in
Rev.12:7, it is said: Michael and his angels fought
against the Dragon and his angels. The word Michael,
seems to be compounded of mi(who), ke(like),and El
(God); he who is like God hence by this personage, in
the Apocalypse, many understand the Lord Jesus." (Adam
Clark)

Dan 12:1 - "And at that time shall Michael stand up,
the great prince which standeth for the children of
thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such
as never was since there was a nation [even] to that
same time: and at that time thy people shall be
delivered, every one that shall be found written in
the book."

The angel here notes two things: first that
the Church will be in great affliction and trouble at
Christ's coming, and next that God will send his angel
to deliver it, whom he here calls Michael, meaning
Christ, who is proclaimed by the preaching of the
Gospel". (Geneva Notes)

Jesus Christ shall appear his church's patron and
protector: At that time, when the persecution is at
the hottest, Michael shall stand up, Dan_12:1. The
angel had told Daniel what a firm friend Michael was
to the church, Dan_10:21. He all along showed this
friendship in the upper world; the angels knew it; but
now Michael shall stand up in his providence, and work
deliverance for the Jews, when he sees that their
power is gone, Deu_32:36. Christ is that great prince,
for he is the prince of the kings of the earth,
Rev_1:5. And, if he stand up for his church, who can
be against it? But this is not all: At that time (that
is, soon after) Michael shall stand up for the working
out of our eternal salvation; the Son of God shall be
incarnate, shall be manifested to destroy the works of
the devil. Christ stood for the children of our people
when he was made sin and a curse for them, stood in
their stead as a sacrifice, bore the cure for them, to
bear it from them. He stands for them in the
intercession he ever lives to make within the veil,
stands up for them, and stands their friend. When
Christ appears he will recompense tribulation to those
that trouble his people. There shall be a time of
trouble, threatening to all, but ruining to all the
implacable enemies of God's kingdom among men, such
trouble as never was since there was a nation. This is
applicable. 1. To the destruction of Jerusalem, which
Christ calls (perhaps with an eye to this prediction)
such a great tribulation as was not since the
beginning of the world to this time, Mat_24:21. This
the angel had spoken much of (Dan.9:26, Dan.9:27); and
it happened about the same time that Christ set up the
gospel-kingdom in the world, that Michael our prince
stands up. Or, 2. To the judgment of the great day,
that day that shall burn as an oven, and consume the
proud and all that do wickedly; that will be such a
day of trouble as never was to all those whom Michael
our prince stands against. (Matthew Henry)

hi,I take all your points as valid.I did notice that it is a scripture used as a definite by some to argue for a tribulation view and I guess I was trying to point out that we cant be certain about the HE only that the He is good,Staff

Or we could simply believe what the bible says and not be changing it to fit our doctrine.

A man is a man; an angel is an angel and Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Michael is an angel which stands for "Daniel's people" ie Israel. The church is the body of Christ, and was not revealed to previous ages ie the prophets. It is not of this world, it was hidden and is hidden with Christ in God. It will be revealed at His glorious appearing.

David

Hi Savannah Thanks for such a detailed reply.I have read this teaching before but not in such detail.Before I posted I looked for a name definition but I couldnt find one,so thats great.
I have read your post in full and without sounding stupid are you saying yes or no?
Thanks again staff

Hi Jesus-is-GOD ,
Just before I looked at both those posts and I didnt know what to make of them.What do you get when you compare them?,Thanks staff

davidc,

You said,

"A man is a man; an angel is an angel and Jesus Christ is the Son of God."

Genesis 32:24-30 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Daniel 3:24,25 Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonied, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king. He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

Genesis 18:1-3 And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:

"And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Then Moses said, 'I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.'...Moreover He said, 'I am the God of your father -- the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.' And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God...Then Moses said to God, 'Indeed, when I come to the children of Israel and say to them, "The God of your fathers has sent me to you," and they say to me, "What is His name?" what shall I say to them?' And God said to Moses, 'I AM WHO I AM.' And He said, 'Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, "I AM has sent me to you."'" (Exodus 3:2-14).

"Then Manoah said to the Angel of the LORD, 'Please let us detain You, and we will prepare a young goat for You.'
And the Angel of the LORD said to Manoah, 'Though you detain Me, I will not eat your food. But if you offer a burnt offering, you must offer it to the LORD.' (For Manoah did not know He was the Angel of the LORD.)
Then Manoah said to the Angel of the LORD, 'What is Your name, that when Your words come to pass we may honor You?'
And the Angel of the LORD said to him, 'Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?'
So Manoah took the young goat with the grain offering, and offered it upon the rock to the LORD. And He did a wondrous thing while Manoah and his wife looked on -- it happened as the flame went up toward heaven from the altar -- the Angel of the LORD ascended in the flame of the altar! When Manoah and his wife saw this, they fell on their faces to the ground. When the Angel of the LORD appeared no more to Manoah and his wife, then Manoah knew that He was the Angel of the LORD.
And Manoah said to his wife, 'We shall surely die, because we have seen God!'
But his wife said to him, 'If the LORD had desired to kill us, He would not have accepted a burnt offering and a grain offering from our hands, nor would He have shown us all these things, nor would He have told us such things as these at this time.'" (Judges 13:14-23).

The "Angel of the LORD" is revealed to be the LORD Himself.

"In that day the LORD will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the Angel of the LORD before them."
(Zechariah 12:8).

Re: "Church in the Wilderness", i.e. Israel

Acts 7:37-40 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us: To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt, Saying unto Aaron, Make us gods to go before us: for as for this Moses, which brought us out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.

Gal 6:15,16 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

1 Peter 2:5-10 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people;
[See Exodus 19:5,6] that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.(See Hos. 1:6,9,10 and 2:1,23)

And finally, may we continually have this Word before us,

James 3:1 My brothers do not be many teachers, knowing that we will receive greater judgment.

staff,

"...are you saying yes or no?"

Assuredly and emphatically, I am saying to you, NO!

The Thessalonian believers to whom this letter was originally sent and read to, would have known of whom Paul was referring when he mentioned the restrainer.

2 Thess 2:3-6 Do not let anyone deceive you in any way, because that Day will not come unless first comes the falling away, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, the one opposing and exalting himself over everything being called God, or object of worship, so as for him "to sit in the temple of God" as God, setting forth himself, that he is God.(See Dan. 11:36; Eze. 28:2).
Do you not remember that I told you these things, I yet being with you? And now you know the thing holding back, for him to be revealed in his time.

Although we can, with great certainty, know of whom Paul was not referring to, the text in its context does not identify who the restrainer is.

What we do know from the text is:

What restrains translates "that which is right now continuously restraining" (the language used is the present participle).

It literally translates, "to hold down or hold back." And the gender is neuter, which emphasizes the force exerted in restraining something. We then read, 'He who restrains' in which the gender is masculine.

Now indicates that this restraining power was active in Paul's day at that very moment.

Again, I'd emphasize that the text be read in its context. To do so simply does not allow for the erroneous interpretation that futurism has imposed upon it(See vs.3-6 above).

I have found Thomas Manton's sermon on this passage helpful(SERMON V - 2 THES. II. 5-7). Below is an excerpt of that sermon:

"To reprove them that think this is a curious point not to be searched into. Why then did God reveal it, and that so often by St Paul, by St John, in so many prophetical representations of it? Surely it is not curiosity to search into things revealed, but to intrude ourselves into things hidden, and which God hath put under a veil of secrecy. It is true men must know their measure, and not attempt to run before they can go, and venture upon obscure points before well versed in plain; and it is true, in more abstruse points, men must not rashly define, but soberly and modestly inquire, and compare predictions with plain events; this is no way culpable."
(if interested you may read the sermon at the following link: http://www.truecovenanter.com/manton/manton05.html )

I find myself agreeing with most if not all of what is written in Manton's sermon, the Holy Spirit Himself bearing witness with my spirit as to the Truth, He being the Spirit of Truth and God being the God of all Truth. Amen.

Bless God...

All ye His saints -

hi,Thank you for taking the time to post again.I will definitely have a look at that link you gave,Much appreciated, Staff

It is not clear to me that the Angel of the Lord is the same as an archangel. My understanding has been that the Angel of the Lord refers to Jesus, while Michael the archangel is an angel.

Question; Is Michael the Arc Angel Jesus Christ? Only if He is could he be the restrainer. The Restrainer is the Holy Spirit of God. Not Jesus Christ or Michael. Who is at work in the Body of Christ? Christ is our life, finished. The Comforter is the one who restrains Satan because Christ defeated Him on the Cross when it comes to the Body of Christ His Church. The Comforter is our Teacher and the Power of the Life of Christ birthed in us, (born again). If the Holy Spirit leaves with the Body of Christ the Church, for He is no longer with us but in us, in the Rapture, who is left to restrain?

In Christ: Phillip

Savannah, you are right, I should not have been so dogmatic.

Regarding the Restrainer, I agree completely with ChristInYou's remarks about the Holy Ghost and the church being raptured before the Man of sin is revealed

David.

hi,this is an interesting point could you just expand on that a little if you have time,thanks staff

2 Thess 2:1-3 (KJV)

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Alive-to-God, you say that verse 2 above is incompatible with the church's rapture before the man of sin is revealed. Perhaps if you saw that the phrase "that day" in verse 3 refers to "the day of Christ" in verse 2. Paul uses various phrases to indicate the time of judgement descibed in detail in chap 1 vs 7 to 10, including "the day of the Lord" and "the Day of Christ". Paul was concerned that the saints at Thessalonica had heard another message teaching that that day had come, or was present (which is a better translation of "at hand" ).

In this second chapter he shows them that certain events had to occur before that Day came, as Jesus also taught in Matthew 24.

Confusion only arises if we do not distinguish between the Lord's coming for us His church in the clouds, which is an imminent event (it could happen any day without any foretold event preceeding it); and the Day of the Lord, when He will come With His saints (we will appear with Him in glory), and His feet shall stand on the mount of Olives. The events descibed here in 2 Thess and Matthew 24 will preceed that Day of the Lord.

Can I say also that this is my understanding of what the bible teaches. I know that many other of my brothers and sisters in Christ,whom I love, see things differently and I do not want to get into any contention or arguement with any. If you see things another way, that's what these pages are for.

David

2 Thess. 2 provides no support to the dispensational view,or as others refer to it as futurism. Only by their(futurists) futuristic interpretation of these verses in 2 Thess. 2 and other scriptures which they've americanized, can they entice the many gullible seekers of future things, into this maze of 'left behind theology'. Such false theology encompasses a pre-trib rapture,divided 7 years,Great Tribulation,an incarnate satan(anti-christ),1000 years of political reign on an earthly throne by Christ the King. So the fairytale plays and rakes in the millions deceiving the multitudes.

The following 'Expository Observations' are a brief summary of 2 Thess. 2:

Verses 1–2. Paul's reference "concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him" (2Th 2:1) refers to the AD 70 judgment on the Jews — the very judgment Christ emphasizes in the first portion of his Olivet Discourse (which strongly influences this passage), John focuses on in the Book of Revelation, and other writers consider in several other Scriptural passages.

Though Paul speaks of the second advent just a few verses before (1:10), he is not dealing with that issue here. In 2 Thess. 1:10 he even employs a different word for the coming of Christ (elthe) from what he uses in 2:1 (parousia). In chapter 1 the second advent brings "everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord" (1:9); here this coming results in temporal "destruction" (2:8). There the second advent includes "his mighty angels" (1:7); here the temporal judgment mentions nothing about these angels (2:1–12). Thus, the second advent provides an eternal resolution to their suffering; the AD 70 Day of the Lord affords temporal resolution (cf. Rev 6:10).

Furthermore, the "gathering together to Him" Paul mentions in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 seems to reflect Matthew 24:31. The word translated "gather together" here is episunagoge . Its cognate verb form is found in Matthew 24:31, where Christ ties the gathering to "this generation" (Mt 24:34). It signifies the elect's calling into Christ by means of the trumpeting in of the archetypical Great Jubilee (cf. 2Th 1:11; 2:14). Here it functions the same way. With the coming destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, Christians will henceforth be "gathered together" in a separate and distinct "assembly" (episunagoge ; the church is called a sunagoge in Jas 2:2). After the temple's destruction God will no longer tolerate going up to the temple to worship (it will be impossible!), as Christians frequently do prior to AD 70.

Verses 3–7. Paul informs them that "that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition" (2Th 2:3). The word "falling away" is apostasia, which occurs in the New Testament only here and in Acts 21:21.

Historically, the word can apply to a revolt: either political or religious. But to which does it refer here? I believe that it speaks of the Jewish apostasy/rebellion against Rome. Josephus certainly calls the Jewish War against Rome an apostasia (Josephus, Life 4, 9, 10; J.W. 2:2:7; 2:16:4; 7:4:2; 7:6:1). Probably Paul merges the religious and political concepts here, though emphasizing the outbreak of the Jewish War, which results from their apostasy against God (Mt 22:1–7; Lk 19:41–44; 1Th 2:14–16). The emphasis must be on the revolt against Rome because it is future and datable, whereas the revolt against God is ongoing and cumulative. Such would be necessary to dispel the deception on which Paul is focusing. In conjunction with this final apostasy and Jerusalem's consequent destruction, Christianity and Judaism are forever separated and both are exposed to Rome's wrath.

The man of lawlessness is Nero Caesar. Paul clearly implies that something is presently (ca. AD 52) "restraining" (present participle) the man of sin "that he may be revealed in his own time" (2Th 2:6). The man of lawlessness is alive and waiting to be "revealed." This implies that for the time being, Christians could expect at least some protection from the Roman government: the Roman laws regarding religio licita are currently in Christianity's favor, while it remains a sect of Judaism. This begins to end after the malevolent Nero ascends the throne, for he begins persecuting Christianity in AD 64. Paul certainly enjoys the protection of Roman law (Ac 18:12ff) and makes important use of it in AD 59 (Ac 25:11–12; 28:19), when he seeks protection from the malignancy of the Jews. He expresses no ill-feelings against Rome when writing Romans 13 in AD 57–59, during the early reign of Nero.

When Paul writes 2 Thess. 2, he is under the reign of Claudius Caesar. He seems to employ a word play on Claudius' name. The Latin word for "restraint" is claudere, which is similar to "Claudius." While Claudius lives, Nero, the man of lawlessness, is powerless to commit political lawlessness. Christianity is free from the imperial sword until the Neronic persecution begins.

The evil "mystery of lawlessness" is "already working," though restrained in Claudius' day (2Th 2:7). This perhaps refers to the evil conniving and plotting of Nero's mother, Agrippina, who poisons Claudius so that Nero can ascend to the purple (Tacitus, Annals 12:62ff; Suetonius, Claudius 44).

The Roman emperor, according to Paul, "exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped" (2Th 2:4a). The phrase "so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God" is interesting. When an infinitive (kathisai, "to sit") follows hoste ("so that"), it indicates a purpose intended, not necessarily a purpose accomplished. Nero intends or desires to present himself as God. We see the evil potential of emperor worship just a few years before, when the emperor Caligula (a.k.a. Gaius) attempts to put his image in the temple in Jerusalem (Josephus, Ant. 18:8:2–3; Philo, Embassy to Gaius).

Not only so but in Nero the imperial line eventually openly "opposed" (2Th 2:4) Christ by persecuting his followers. Nero even begins persecuting Christians, when he presents himself in a chariot as the sun god Apollo, while burning Christians in order to illuminate his self-glorifying party.

Verses 8–9. Verses 8 and 9 read: "And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders." The lawless one is eventually openly revealed. The mystery form of his character gives way to a revelation of his lawlessness in Nero's wicked acts. This occurs after the restrainer [Claudius] is "taken out of the way," allowing Nero the public stage upon which he can act out his horrendous lawlessness.

In Christ's judgment-coming against Jerusalem, we also discover judgment for the man of lawlessness, Nero. Thus, Christians may take comfort in the promised relief from both Jewish and Neronic opposition (2Th 2:15–17). Not only does Titus destroy Jerusalem within twenty years, but Nero himself dies a violent death in the midst of the Jewish War (June 9, AD 68). His death, then, will occur in the Day of the Lord in conjunction with Christ's judgment-coming against Israel. Christ destroys Nero with "the breath of his mouth," much like Assyria is destroyed with the coming and breath of the Lord in the Old Testament (Isa 30:27–31) and like Israel is crushed by Babylon (Mic 1:3–5).

by Kenneth Gentry

Who was Claudius Caesar mentioned above:

Emperor Claudius Caesar reigned for 13 years from 41 AD - 54 AD).

His full name was Tiberius Claudius Drusus Nero Germanicus, he was born in Lugdunum now Lyon in 10 BC. As the yougest son of Nero Drusus and of Antonia the younger who was the daughter of Marc Antony and Octavia. He was a scholar, historian and writer, who had escaped assassination only because he was seeen by his enemies incapable to ever be a threat to them and an imbecile.

He was the first Roman emperor to assign important executive duties to the freedmen. His four chief assistants all were former slaves. In time they became powerful and strongly influenced Claudius, for which the emperor was severely criticized by his enemies. He was also the first Caesar to secure the support of the army by offering a bribe to each man.

Under Claudius rule things improved very much:

-Civil administration saw detailed improvements.
-In the judiciary increased imperial control over the treasury and provinces.
-The creation of a cabinet of freedmen.

Agrippina became the wife of emperor Claudius. Agrippina was granted the title of Augusta, a rank no wife had ever gotten before in Roman history. Agrippina was determined to see her twelve year old son Nero take the place of Britannicus as imperial heir. She successfully arranged Nero to be betrothed to Claudius daughter Octavia. And so Claudius adopted him as son.

Then on the night of the 12 to 13 of October 54 AD Claudius suddenly died. Claudius death is generally attributed to his scheming wife Agrippina who didn't care to wait for her son Nero to reach the throne, so she poisoned Claudius with mushrooms.

Nero Caesar became Emperor and he reigned 14 years from 54 AD - 68 AD. A year into his reign he had his mother Agrippina put to death.

Alive to God. My apologies, I intended my post as an answer to Savannah, not yourself, but welcome anyway.

I agree that 2 thess 2 is not primarily intended to speak of the coming of Christ for His church, but as Paul's putting right the wrong teaching the church at Thessalonica had received that the Day of the Lord had already come.

I do believe however that verse 1 of the chapter does speak of this coming: " Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,". There are many other passages which do however speak of the imminent coming of Christ, but as you say, this is off the main subject.

David

Hi Alive to God,
I think I was just commenting on the view that the restrainer is the Holy Spirit and that in particular if you take the church out the Holy Spirit will be taken out of the way sort to speak.
I am not saying that is right or wrong I dont know but I think that this would be particular pre tribulation view.
I dont think their are any other scriptures to support this view.Staff

However Michael is described in Daniel 10:13 as "one of the chief princes", not the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

castling says,

"However Michael is described in Daniel 10:13 as "one of the chief princes", not the King of Kings and Lord of Lords."

"Many theologians have puzzled over the question of who the archangel "Michael" really is? Is he just a strong angel serving God, is he the leader of all the angels of heaven, a ruling general over a literal army of God in the Kingdom with weapons of battle to war against rebellious demons? Or is he the Lord Jesus Christ Himself, the chief messenger of God. The fact that an extra biblical church group also teaches that Michael is Jesus Christ serves to muddy the theological waters even more. But in truth, their doctrines should be irrelevant to whether a belief is correct biblically and based on sound hermeneutics. We are all aware that any false gospel that you can think of has some truth in it's doctrines. This doesn't mean we throw out the truth because they might believe it also. If we are going to discern truth, it's going to be from the careful study of the scriptures, not from comparing beliefs with other church groups.

Archangel simply means the head or chief messenger. It's taken from the two Greek root words [archo], meaning the first in rule or power, and [aggelos] meaning messenger, or one who brings tidings. It is also translated as the chief or top messenger. The word [aggelos] (messenger) is also translated angel (in that an Angel is a messenger from God) to signify one who brings tidings from God.
One of the ways God puts forth spiritual truths is in the names He assigns in the Bible. From the name Adam, to Israel, to David, to Christ, God assigns names which reveal some great spiritual truths. And the name Michael is no exception. If we study it carefully and honestly, it reveals who this is. The word Michael is of Hebrew origin [miykael] and most nearly means "He who is assuredly God". Taken from the root Hebrew words [miy] (who is), [kiy] (assuredly), and ['el] (God). Kiy, the prepositional prefix has also been rendered as meaning "who is certainly God" or "who is as God". This is totally consistent with all of scripture which deals with the work of Michael. For Christ, the messenger of God has or will do all the things assigned to Michael, the head or chief Messenger. Christ is the Messenger of God in charge of the army of God. And He assuredly is God, and that is what the title God gives of "Michael" signifies.

One of the first objections by some theologians is that scripture says that Michael is "one of the Chief Princes".

Daniel 10:13

"But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia".

Their rationale is that God cannot be "one" of the Chief Princes. However there are two schools of thought on this verse, and they both support the doctrine that Christ indeed can be one of the Chief rulers.

1. The reference to Michael as one of the chief rulers or Princes is illustrating Christ's status in the Trinity. i.e, one of the chief rulers or Kings in the Godhead, as demonstrated in verses such as, Acts 5:31

"Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins".

This is one of the Chief Princes or rulers in the triune Godhead and He rules on the throne of God.

2. The other way that this is understood is that this should be rendered first, rather than one. He is the First of the Chief princes. For example, Young's literal Translation reads:

Daniel 10:13

"And the head of the kingdom of Persia is standing over against me twenty and one days, and lo, Michael, first of the chief heads, hath come to help me..." -YLT

As per Christ saying He is alpha and Omega, the First and the last in Revelation. Revelation 2:8

"And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;"

Again pointing to the cross of Christ and that He is God! The First Resurrected from the dead, the first born, that in all things He might have preeminence.

Either way we look at it, whether first of the Chief rulers or one of the chief rulers, both illustrate His rule in the triune Godhead. When daniel says He is the only one to help, this in itself is a confirmation and illustration that this refers to the Messiah. Only the Messenger (not angel) of God could help in this. He is the Prince who strengthens us and is our help in time of weakness. This is illustrated again in the following verses of that chapter.

Daniel 10:21

"But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince".

There is no one that holdeth with him but Michael? Not any other man, not any other angel, not God, no one? This would be illogical and unbiblical (since we know there is always a remnant and angels of God) until we understand that this is Christ and no one could help us but Him. Then of course it is perfectly logical, for Christ is the only one who holdeth with us all in these things. He is our help! This is the truth noted in scripture which this messenger has shown Daniel. Michael (the name signifying 'He who is assuredly God'), would be the only one who would help this in time of need.

Psalms 146:3-6

"Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.Happy is he that hath the God of Jacob for his help, whose hope is in the LORD his God: Which made heaven, and earth, the sea, and all that therein is: which keepeth truth for ever:

There is no Prince either in heaven or in earth that anyone can put their trust in to help or strengthen us but Christ our Prince of Peace. It is He that maketh reconciliation with us to God and who strengthens the Covenant in His blood (Hebrews 9:17). The same Word of God made flesh that the book of John (chapter one) reiterates created heaven and earth and all that is therein. He is Michael, the help of God's people this prophesy is speaking of.

Note also, that this messenger tells Daniel that Michael is "His Prince". Who is the Prince or ruler of Daniel (and indeed the Church) but Christ? He is our Prince who alone holdeth with us in these matters. There is none other name from which we can get our help to overcome, other than "He who is assuredly God". He is one of the chief rulers in the triune Godhead who is designated as our means of help. Without this Prince standing for us, we don't stand, but fall!" -- T.W.

Dan. 10:13 But lo, Michael... - "Gabriel, who speaks, did not leave Cyrus till Michael came to take his place. Michael, he who is like God, sometimes appears to signify the Messiah, at other times the highest or chief archangel. Indeed there is no archangel mentioned in the whole Scripture but this one. See Jud_1:9; Rev_12:7." - Adam Clarke

"Here is Michael our prince, the great protector of the church, and the patron of its just but injured cause: The first of the chief princes, Dan_10:13. Some understand it of a created angel, but an archangel of the highest order, 1Th_4:16; Jud_1:9. Others think that Michael the archangel is no other than Christ himself, the angel of the covenant, and the Lord of the angels, he whom Daniel saw in vision, Dan_10:5. He came to help me (Dan_10:13); and there is none but he that holds with me in these things, Dan_10:21. Christ is the church's prince; angels are not, Heb_2:5. He presides in the affairs of the church and effectually provides for its good. He is said to hold with the angels, for it is he that makes them serviceable to the heirs of salvation; and, if he were not on the church's side, its case were bad. But, says David, and so says the church, The Lord takes my part with those that help me, Psa_118:7. The Lord is with those that uphold my soul, Psa_54:4." - Matthew Henry

Dan. 10:13 "but, lo, Michael one of the chief Princes, came to help me; called in the New Testament an Archangel, the Prince of angels, the Head of all principality and power; and is no other than Christ the Son of God, an uncreated Angel; who is "one", or "the first of the chief Princes" , superior to angels, in nature, name, and office; he came to "help" Gabriel, not as a fellow creature, but as the Lord of hosts; not as a fellow soldier, but as General of the armies in heaven and earth, as superior to him in wisdom and strength; and he helped him by giving him fresh counsels, orders, and instructions, which he following succeeded:

and I remained there with the kings of Persia; with the king of Persia and his nobles, putting into execution the orders Michael had given him, and so baffled the designs of the evil spirit; and this retarded him from being with the prophet one and twenty days. The Septuagint and Arabic versions very wrongly render the words, "and I left him there with the kings of Persia"; as if Michael was left there by Gabriel, whereas it was just the reverse." -
John Gill

1 Thessalonians 4:16. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Daniel 12:5-7. "Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river. And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders? And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished."

Revelation 10:5-7. "And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

Dan 12:9 And he saith, `Go, Daniel; for hidden and sealed are the things till the time of the end

All the elements of Daniel 12:7 and Revelation 10:5-7 are in parallel. There is only one real difference and that is the timeline. When the angel in Daniel makes his oath, he declares that it was going to be a “time, times, and half a time.”

A period of time was going to pass by before these events would unfold. This is the repeated point to Daniel in Daniel 12:9. The words were shut up and sealed until the time of the end. The fulfillment of the prophecy would not happen in the days of Daniel. It would be later. It would be “a time, times, and half a time.”

Re: “a time, times, and half a time.”

The trampling of the holy city is going to take place for 42 months (Rev.11:2). The time of the invasion of the Roman Empire against Judea was approximately three and a half years.

Revelation 11:3 speaks of 1260 days which is also 42 months. In Revelation 13:5 we read about the beast exercising authority for 42 months. When three and half years, 42 months, or 1260 days is declared, it is referring to a time of distress, tribulation, persecution, or destruction.

The reference to, “a time, times, and half a time” in Daniel represents the three and a half years of the invasion of the Roman Empire against Judea.

The angel reveals in Daniel what event his oath concerns. Notice the end of verse 7, “…when the shattering of the power of the holy people comes to an end all these things would be finished.” When the angel said these words to Daniel, the “holy people” was a reference to the physical nation of Israel. Daniel 12:1 confirms this.

And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. (Daniel 12:1 )

The angel tells Daniel that this prophecy is about his people, that is, the Jewish nation. Those who were written in the book would be delivered from this time of trouble, this great tribulation.

In Revelation 10 the angel has declared that when the seventh angel blows his trumpet, the things announced by the prophets (particularly with Daniel’s prophecy in mind) will be fulfilled. The angel that told Daniel that there would be delay (a time, times, and half of time) tells John that there will not be a delay now.

Rev. 10:1 And I saw another strong angel coming down out of the heaven, having been clothed with a cloud, and a rainbow on the head; and his face as the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire.

This mighty angel is wrapped in a cloud. Clouds consistently carry the symbolism of judgment in the scriptures.

Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen. Revelation 1:7

Behold, he comes up like clouds; his chariots like the whirlwind; his horses are swifter than eagles— woe to us, for we are ruined! Jeremiah 4:13

For the day is near, the day of the LORD is near; it will be a day of clouds, a time of doom for the nations. Ezekiel 30:3

This angel is coming to declare judgment on the earth. This angel is also described with a rainbow over his head. The rainbow carries the symbolism of God’s covenant. God’s judgment is about to be unleashed in keeping with God’s covenant that he made with his people.

When the seventh angel blew his trumpet then all that the prophets had spoken concerning this event would be fulfilled. Remember that this angel was seen in Daniel 12:7 saying that the shattering of the power of the holy people was going to come. The angel in Revelation 11:6-7 says there is no more delay. The shattering of the power of the holy people would take place when the seventh angel sounds the trumpet. The seventh trumpet now sounds. This pictures of the fall of the city of Jerusalem, the judgment against the physical Jewish nation.

Where specifically, “every eye will see Him, and they also who pierced Him, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him” (Revelation 1:7 and Zechariah 12:10).

Paul confirms this as he writes his first letter to the Thessalonians,

"For you suffered the same things from your own countrymen as they did from the Jews, who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out, and displease God and oppose all mankind by hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles that they might be saved—so as always to fill up the measure of their sins. But God’s wrath has come upon them at last!" 1 Thessalonians 2:14–16

But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. (Revelation 10:7)

What is the "mystery" that will be finished "in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound"?

The mystery is, "Christ in you, the hope of glory."

To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: (Colossians 1:27)

Amen.

by Jesus-is-GOD on 2011/2/1 15:47:13

2 Thess 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.
8 And then the lawless one will be revealed,

whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

I have wondered why Paul did not identify the hinderer, which is what I think is perhaps a better translation of the text. Why did not Paul just say "the Holy Ghost" or "Michael the Arch-Angel?

There is nothing written in the bible that we are not to know, all will be revealed in due course.

Young's Literal Translation has 2 Thessalonians 2:7-12 as:

"for the secret of the lawlessness doth already work, only he who is keeping down now [will hinder] -- till he may be out of the way,"

You see...hinderer.

The Holy Ghost is NOT taken out of the way during the Tribulation, or else how can anyone be saved during this time, and the scripture is very clear that there is a "great multitude" which no man can number coming out of the Great Tribulation. And if they came out of the Tribulation, then they went into it and were saved.

What if satan is the hinderer referred to in the passage? Does he hinder, and who is it does he hinder? Is there any reference to satan being taken out of the way and why he is taken out of the in the book of Revelation which is where the revealing of the antichrist is talked about?

There sure is, and Michael the Arch-Angel is involved!

Satan (the accuser and hinderer) is Thrown Out of Heaven

Revelation 12:7-10 (New King James Version)

7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them[a] in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.

~~~

I believe God has been telling us that He is going to destroy the works of the devil and break his back and very soon now, and remove the tares from among the wheat as He said He would do, and then the wheat goes to the threshing floor so the chaff can be removed. An interesting point about wheat, when it is on the threshing floors is: the wheat is beaten together with the chaff until the chaff falls off of the wheat berry, and is blown away by the wind or winnowing fan, and then the wheat can be gathered into the barn. (rapture)

So what happens when the accuser is thrown down to the earth?

1. He no longer gets to accuse the elect saints and thus hinder them in their spiritual walks.

If you read the book of Job, you see that satan had to first get permission to attack Job, and he did this by accusing him before God.

2. vs. 10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come....

Did you know that this was not said during the ministry of Jesus Christ when He was on the earth, and it was not said with the first century church when the Holy Ghost was first given? It is said AFTER the "Great Tribulation" has started and AFTER the accuser of the brethren is finally thrown down... so he does not get to accuse the elect saints anymore.

So, why is this so important?

The book of Job makes it perfectly clear that satan can't just attack a saint when he feels like it; he has to get permission first, and he gets permission first by accusing us day and night before God.

And what does satan get to do after he accuses and gets permission because of accusation?

...he gets to hinder the church by:

- planting tares
- sift and tempt a saint to sin
- cause division
- divide and conquer the house of God from within
- cause the house of God to be in disrepair
- cause worldliness and carnality in Christians
- plant heresies and doctrines of devils to deceive, if it were possible, the very elect.
- the list goes on and on with the havoc he has wrecked upon the saints and the Bride of the Lamb through the ages.

But we are accountable before God to be on guard agaist all of these things, as we are warned about it in scripture: to watch and pray (Lead us NOT into temptation, but deliver us from the devil...)

So, If satan the hinderer and accuser of the brethren does not get to accuse and thus hinder us anymore, and does not get permission to wreak havoc on the Bride of the Lamb, what do you think will happen with the elect saints when the work of the Holy Ghost in us is unfettered on the Earth by the hinderer, because he was removed (taken out of the way)?

Well, that man of sin (Antichrist) will be revealed when "satan the hinderer" is taken out of the way, and a great falling away of all of humanity and much of what is called the church will happen first (remove the tares and chaff first as the Lord Jesus has said this will happen - collapse the "Grand Old Mansion" which is in disrepair),

....but then comes true revival on a global scale when that Grand Old Mansion, that glorious House/Temple of God (who we are), is rebuilt, so the the glory of the latter end of the house will be greater than the former.

Because there is no accuser standing before God accusing us, Ephesians 6:12 will end for us, and so will all the works of the devil as pointed out above. But a deadly persecution at the hands of those who take the mark of the beast will occur.

Then the sorrows begin on Earth...

The concentration death camps will return...In thousands, perhaps tens of thousands of concentration camps all over America and the world, countless millions of Christians sit in crowded cold places, partly shaken with terror, cold, hungry, thirsty, stripped of their freedom, possessions and dignity, but the Lord is with them in their hour of trial, for He has NOT forsaken them, and the strength of the Holy Spirit sustains them and fills them with comfort and great joy, and with the comfort of the love of God, for they are in the midst of a global revival.

They fear not, and overcome the Antichrist and his mark by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony, and they love not their lives unto death. Nazi style holocausts return globally, as Christians are summarily put to their deaths, just as the Jews were during WW2. It is satan's war against God and against His Kingdom, and it is all that he has left.

A Grand Revival and an Awakening comes, the rebuilding of the "Grand Old Mansion"...and the time of the harvest:

During the time of unprecedented persecution against Christians, and in the midst of global chaos, there will be a revival and an awakening and a move of the Spirit of God, ...such as has not been seen to this day, no not even in the beginning...for God shall pour out of His Holy Spirit upon the Body of Christ ...to strengthen and purify/beautify the Bride of the Lamb, that she may be pure and holy - and without spot or blemish, or any such thing...and her gown shall be as white as snow....many will turn to the Lord during this time in a global revival.

The Prophet Daniel said... but the people that know their God shall be strong, and do exploits. And they that are wise among the people shall instruct many; yet they shall fall by the sword and by flame, by captivity and by spoil, many days...

...And some of them that are wise shall fall, to refine them, and to purify, and to make them white, even to the time of the end; because it is yet for the time appointed. And the king [Antichrist] shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods; and he shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished; for that which is determined shall be done. Neither shall he regard the gods of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god; for he shall magnify himself above all. ...And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High.

it comes now...

For those who've an interest,listen at the link below:

http://www.edbudd.net/Home/audio/February1,2010Show.m3u