Could I get a Post Tribulation view if possible on the following....

Hi Staff. I'm not sure if all the nations will be "mourning" because as I've noticed how quickly we forget disasters even now. It takes no time for us to move onto the next subject even now and we're not fully into the days of the "strong delusion" - so we can only imagine how reprobate these people who take the mark are - they'll be so calloused by iniquity abounding that any earthquakes etc that happen will be common place to them and they'll forget these things even faster than we do now. How many sit and grieve over earthquake victims from a year ago or more? Places like Pakistan, Haiti, Burma - even now?
So you can imagine the heartlessness of these reprobates with the mark, if even we bearly care or remember for that long or if we even grieve at all for them for more than a day or so. As long as it's not in our own backyard - we just read it as News and move on to the next topic - so imagine those who worship satan caring. No, they'll be partying and cursing GOD at the same time.... until He comes and splits the sky.

Edit: I'm thinking more now - of the famines across the world presently and the deaths of many children and now the deaths of many birds and sea life --- how much do we care - nonetheless these reprobates of these last days?

Matt 24:29 "Immediately after the distress of those days..."

KJV states, "After the Tribulation of those days...." This is post Tribulation, when Jesus returns, gathers His saints, and pours out immense wrath upon His enemies.

staff writes:...........
"The Scenario is this,we have endured years of tribulation,the earth and its inhabitants are in a terrible state,the sun darkened,all of the nations mourning etc;, yet Jesus paints a picture of marrying,eating,drinking and of men being in the field working, presumably, and women grinding.
How does that marry up?"..staff

The sun is darkened, and pure wrath is poured out, after the saints are gathered. Up until that time, the Anti-Christ seems to be winning, and proving that he is indeed the Savior and God.

He is a "man of PEACE" presumably, with the portions of the world he rules over in a relative peace and prosperity. He wars against the "saints"..["called out and elected ones"], and murders many and persecutes them.

Yet, it appears that several wars have occurred, and not all of the Earth, obviously, is conquered at once. There will be a remnant survive until His coming.

Faith is hidden in the heart of the believer, as is the lack of it in those not born again. Only God knows the difference..[vs:41]

Zac Poonen's Revelation Series is very good, and may help you...BT

Staff, what you need to do is, with pen and paper, make three rows and write down in the first line, what happens with each of the 7 Seals. In the second column, what happens with the 7 trumpets and then in the third column, what happens with the 7 vials which are called GOD's Wrath.
Many of us - not all - believe that we are resurrected at the last or 7th trumpet and His Wrath is poured out with His Coming - while we've met Him "in the air".

You have all these things happening all at the same time and that's where you've made a mixture there.

Besides, I see nothing about 7 years - only 3 1/2 years of antiChrist.

Where did you get some of these details btw? Economic failure - no light or plant growth - no food?

They'll have the mark to buy and sell and if you could, as suggested, write down what happens with each Seal and Trumpet - I think you'll see that only 1/3rd and 1/4th are destroyed at a time. That's not total worldwide destruction.

Whether you're pre-trib or not - it still says that they'll be married, eating drinking etc when He comes - so it's not the post-trib belief that is a question for you but how these who are eating and drinking and given in marriage can still be doing so AT His Coming.

He said that, He's Only coming "as a thief in the night" for those who aren't watching - but not for those who are - we'll be ready - by the signs of the times that we've watched ... but as Tom said - most of us will be killed - Rev 20:4-6.

That's the problem - listening to sermons instead of studying His Word alone.

I didn't get my beliefs from anyone. I just sat at my kitchen with a Bible and a Strong's concordance back in the 80's and hand wrote every verse pertaining to the last days from the O.T. and New and none of it contradicted itself - and my mouth dropped open in shock. It was almost 20 yrs later before I got the internet and found out that I wasn't the only one who was post-trib.

We see the "trib" as the seals and trumpets and the vials as His Wrath that we will escape by meeting Him Returning "in the air".

Edit: the few of us that are not killed by then, that is.

hi,I understand that their are some differences even with people on the same side of the debate but you paint a very easy 3 1/2 years of great tribulation thats my point.
Their can be no gap between the rapture and the coming of the son according to this scripture.
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be . 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking , marrying and giving in marriage , until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came , and took them all away ; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be .
and this scripture doesnt pay a pretty picture

21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again. Thanks Staff

I understand now. You didn't start this thread for an honest inquirey, but to argue your own view. I won't argue this view but thinking you wanted what the Bible says, I replied, but shouldn't have, I see now.

AntiChrist will reign for 3 1/2 years. That's in your bible.

"37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be ."

It says, "so shall also The 'COMING' of The Son of man be."

This begs the question - How many times is He "Coming"?

How many raptures are there, if you look at Rev 20:4-6?

Before GOD, we are responsible to get our doctrine from The Bible and not from Sermons.
Sermons are GREAT, once you have your doctrine together by His WORD and His Spirit. Otherwise, how can you test the accuracy of a message. Most good preachers say - check The Word and don't just take my word for it.

People believe what they want to believe - the Bible says within the word "heresy" - so no one can make them see otherwise. I didn't want to believe what I saw back then because I was pre-trib for 9 yrs at that time. I fought it even after seeing it with His Word alone.

I'm sorry I entered this thread. I should have known better. Lesson learned.

Hi staff,

I wonder, could you answer this question? Have you ever lived in a primitive place, where there is no electricity, no flush toilets, no air conditioning, no drinking water in a tap, no tarred roads, no machinery involved in the farming?

Would you consider that - which is normal for some people - 'tribulation'?

With our eyes focused on Jesus, the things spoken by the prophets concerning the end of the age were only meant as a side note. They were not meant to be studied and made into teaching and doctrine.

They serve only as a thought. We keep it as an observation. Very much what Mary did when she seen and heard, she kept them in her heart as something to reflect back on.

Our place is not to study the Sun or the Moon or even the Stars. Our place is to study Christ. When anything that is contrary to the word of God rises up, we'll know! We don't need to study about Satan. If we have any love for the truth, when he speaks a lie, we'll know it.

Observe only, and let us follow Jesus Christ in the full capacity of the faith that has been given to us.

But what I see when I look at both those examples is everything was as normal,it wasnt a time of unpheaval or distress.

Isaiah 56:12 2 Come ye, [say they], I will fetch wine, and we will fill ourselves with strong drink; and to morrow shall be as this day, [and] much more abundant.

Anything other is possible only to the faithful redeemed.

staff wrote:
Listening to sermons is valid and I believe scriptural.

And I posted earlier that, "sermons are Great" - if you are also a Berean.

Brother Tom recommended these 'sermons' for you.

""Zac Poonen's Revelation Series is very good, and may help you...BT""

You said on this thread that you "will not" look into the seals, trumpets and vials so, I take that as not desiring to really research the Bible on this topic because if you had, you wouldn't be asking this OP question.

You also said in your last post to me - ""When studying the bible I noticed this huge discrepancy in what I heard post tribulation people say about the end of the 7years.""

There are no discrepencies in His WORD. Just people not reading it 'all'.

He is only "coming" Once ... His second Advent - His Return, and the people will be eating and drinking and marrying at that time - just as it is written.

I wouldn't have posted again if it weren't for your PM.
What is said in public must be dealt with in public.
None of us should be harrassing each other through those, so I have answered your PM here.

Daniel 7 is also interesting.

Brother staff,

I've been thinking about something Lysa said, regarding seedtime and harvest. Before Noah entered the Ark, it had never rained. There were no seasons, and the earth gave forth of its strength continually. After the flood, Noah was given permission to kill animals to eat.

So, we see that God changes His instructions from time to time. However, there is one instruction He has not changed, and perhaps this foundational command answers your original question more clearly than any other verses.

Genesis 1:22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.

Genesis 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Where there's life, there's hope.

Staff,

"Without going into the particulars of your question, may I suggest that you make a study of the book of Revelation."
ginnyrose.

Poonen's chapter by chapter study of Revelation brings out the idea of not only reading and hearing, but KEEPING , or OBEYING the Words of the Prophecy.

"Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. "...Rev:1,vs 3.

Many people want to build a fortress around the prophecy, that will make them feel secure about their own belief system. This is called DOGMA. It stems from the desire to be right or correct. It will always guild a PARTY spirit, or a division, because by nature, it is exclusionary.

Faith is not cerebral. It is not something to be attained by stretching our intellect to wrap around scripture, while hammering in various discrepancies that may not. This, as I see it, is what you are trying to do. If you attempt to mold your mind to believe, it can always be unmolded. Only Jesus can open doors that cannot be closed, and close doors that cannot be opened.

This is why the martyrs could sing and worship while being burned alive at the stake. Their faith did not rest in their mental observations, but in the knowing that their spirit rested in His hands, because they kept Him, and their relationship with Him alive.

The blessing that Revelation brings to me, is that every time I read it, or listen to it, my faith is strengthened; EVERYTIME. I have read and listened many hundreds of times.

I experience the warmth of faith rising in me because I believe, and know , a bit more, perhaps, that Lord Jesus is Ruling and Reigning, and His holy and loving hand is in the middle of this event....and that He is the Creator of the Universe, and Time itself, and that He loves His People.

Revelation is about the Truth of Creation,and those Redeemed by God to Rule over it forever, and to bring justice to the EVIL....that brought sin and death to His purity in the first place.

Satan and all who followed him will be punished forever, and Jesus' Children will be in the spout of Life forever...joy indescribable and filled with the loving glow of God, forever and ever.

I do not read it to understand it mentally, but to be ministered to by the Holy Spirit within as I get revelation from Him in my heart, my spirit. The timing or the events that will come do not have to be pegged in sequence for me to believe.
I do have a sense of what to expect, but that was not revealed to me for me to fear, but to trust.

Much of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture ideas have been born out of the idea that Christians will not have to suffer, and some have adapted a fear motivated faith that declares that they refuse to believe it....so God will magically remove them with the secret gathering together; The Secret Rapture Doctrine.

Over and over again, the scriptures refute this, but men go on believing it. Why? They have been indoctrinated. They must seek other men to explain, and teach them,and the result is dogma. A refusal to believe anything else.

It seems to me that this is really what you are struggling with, and your intentions for posting this thread, was to really justify your beliefs by shooting holes in the opposition, the Post Tribulation division!! You do this with an adamant refusal to study and receive the Prophecy on your own. To me, this is very sad.

Let your faith rest in God, not in man, or his doctrines. Many here have been trying to say that to you, but you won't listen. Your not ready to give up your dogma, and let Him teach you.

In the end, we are all liars, and inadequate, and whatever we believe will happen will certainly unfold in God's perfect idea. It will surely be somewhat different than we thought it would....but one thing will not. Jesus is returning to draw His Bride with him for eternity, and there will be a trial that will encompass the earth, and there will be a man of sin who will be destroyed by his coming.

If we trust in him today and now, and are willing to honor Him no matter the cost, we will be with Him. He honors His Promise.

"Even though He slay me, YET will I worship Him!"..Job...

This is one of the greatest statements of faith in the Bible, and will be the heart cry of the Tribulation faithful. We are preparing now, to endure then.

"HE THAT ENDURES UNTIL THE END, THE SAME SHALL BE SAVED.!"
Jesus.

Sis Ginnyrose, I'm in agreement with you. Nothing (other then Him, Himself) causes me to rejoice more than eschatology Because it means that there truly is a happy ending to all the suffering that we see and go through in this life. It's the happy ending that keeps me going as well.
If it were not so, "we of all men would be most miserable".

Blessings to you & yours.
See you then!

"It is not something to be attained by stretching our intellect to wrap around scripture, while hammering in various discrepancies that may not. This, as I see it, is what you are trying to do"BT

"Tom, this is not what I was advocating. If you reread my post you will see that I was encouraging staff to get into the WORD and study it for himself. One cannot grow on the strengths of others, this is why I usually work to encourage people to study on their own, praying for Holy Spirit inspiration, using practical comprehension skills. God gave us an intellect and he expects us to use it, otherwise we will fall into serious error. This personal study will do more to teach then any sermon by Bro. Who-knows-who."....Ginnyrose to BT; me.

Sister Ginnyrose. I was referring to "staff", not you in the above statement, and my entire response was in support of your council to him. I guess I should have made that more clear....and as usual, you and I are on the same page.

sorry for not doing so.......tom

Hi staff,

The main answer I seem to be getting is the tribulation isnt really as difficult as we think.If the tribulation isnt has difficult as we think then I except those anwsers.

So, I've reread your opening post, and from your other replies it seems you are interested in the fact that the executioon of judgment happened just after Noah and Lot had been made safe from it.

Jesus said the tribulation would be shortened or NO flesh would be saved. So it IS BAD. But I've noticed something in Matthew 24 which might be controversial with you.

Matt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days

... 45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? 46 Blessed [is] that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

So there is an end to it, and there are still saints on the earth.

What I'm seeing is, that there is time for repentance even after the tribulation, but before the Lord returns. He has sent His apostles into the world in His name, to proclaim the gospel and make disciples - to find lost sheep - to fish for men. We are to obey Him while we can.

Regarding judgment, I would draw your attention to these verses.

Genesis 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually. 6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

God had ALREADY JUDGED the situation on earth, and had decided to destroy it. By the time the actual putting to death came, the whole world population had had a hundred years to seek God as Noah had done.

During that time, there was a kind of tribulation going on for some people.

'the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually.'

Or was it a barrel of laughs? Obviously some people are having fun.

1 Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Hebrews 11:7 By faith Noah,

being warned of God of things not seen as yet,

moved with fear,

prepared an ark to the saving of his house;

by the which he condemned the world,

and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

Jesus has told us this is the pattern.

The thing that I didn't want to say is that the vast majority of His Saints will be killed.
Paul says in the Greek those who "survive" will be caught up together with them in the air to meet The LORD at His Coming.

You won't study the seals, trumpets and vials as at least three people recommended so that you'd see that people will be still able to eat, drink and be married - so I'll just offer this last point from Rev 19, when He comes -

Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him that sat on the horse, and against His army.

Bottomline - if these people are still here, At His Return, and are able to organize an attempt to make war with HIM - they must be able to marry, drink and eat as well because they sure do seem rather sure of themselves to attempt such a mind-boggling over-throw. This is a rather large army and in reasonable physical strength as well, if you figure that they couldn't be anything less, that would think that they could fight Christ in all of His Glory, with His Resurrected army and angels with Him, as seen in that same Chpt.

Even after the men of Sodom were blinded, they still groped around for someone to rape.

Hi staff,

Hi Alive to God,
I will have a look at these points and get back to you

For instance will the great tribulation be worse than World War 2 which lasted 5yrs and killed Millions.

I feel this information provides a bit of counterweight to your analogy of WW2.

Perhaps too, you could consider there are many believers who cannot understand why the 70th of Daniel's weeks should have been cut off and floated forward by an arbitary amount of time, depending on the opinion of individuals as to where 'we' are in Daniel or Revelation.

What is wrong with having the 70th week immediately after the 69th?

Hi staff,

Thanks for your reply.

What do we call it?

Also then if I am correct in saying that Jesus was highlighting how that there is no gap between Judgement and Noah/Lot been taken out...mmmm

Or is He highlighting that to those who know Him, there is plenty of warning. Noah was fully prepared for the flood although he'd never seen one. It was the people who weren't prepared, who experienced the flood as a destroyer; whereas to Noah, it was a saviour because he was in the ark (Christ).

1 Thessalonians 5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.

4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others [do,] but let us watch and be sober.

2 Thessalonians 3:1 Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may run [swiftly] and be glorified, just as [it is] with you, 2 and that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men; for not all have faith.

3 But the Lord is faithful, who will establish you and guard [you] from the evil one. 4 And we have confidence in the Lord concerning you, both that you do and will do the things we command you. (NKJV)

Hi staff,

I spent yesterday researching an answer to your other thread about Michael, and will reply in the next few days I hope. I'll say something about angels then.

The 70th week is over....

In light of your comment that the 70th week is over, I wonder on what you base your three and a half, or seven (years)?

Edited: I'll ask my question at another time.

If I may insert this rendering of this verse:

Daniel 12:1 And at that time, Michael [who is like God?] shall stand up, the great prince the Advocate for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Sounds like Jesus.

Hi staff,

I am saying that after the 7 year period of which the last half of it is the Great Tribulation that then the 70 wks are complete,so what period are we in then.

Justin Martyr (A.D. 110-165)

"Two advents of Christ have been announced: the one, in which He is set forth as suffering, inglorious, dishonored, and crucified; but the other, in which He shall come from heaven with glory, when the man of apostasy, who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians, ... Now it is evident that no one can terrify or subdue us who have believed in Jesus over all the world. For it is plain that, though beheaded, and crucified, and thrown to wild beasts, and chains, and fire, and all other kinds of torture, we do not give up our confession; but the more such things happen, the more do others and in larger numbers become faithful, and worshippers of God through the name of Jesus." [Dialog with Trypho, CX]

Irenaeus: Discipled by Polycarp, who sat under John. (AD. 120-202)

"Moreover, another danger, by no means trifling, shall overtake those who falsely presume that they know the name of Antichrist. For if these men assume one [number], when this [Antichrist] shall come having another, they will be easily led away by him, as supposing him not to be the expected one, who must be guarded against. These men, therefore, ought to learn [what really is the state of the case], and go back to the true number of the name, that they be not reckoned among false prophets. But, knowing the sure number declared by Scripture, that is, six hundred sixty and six, let them await, in the first place, the division of the kingdom into ten; then, in the next place, when these kings are reigning, and beginning to set their affairs in order, and advance their kingdom, [let them learn] to acknowledge that he who shall come claiming the kingdom for himself, and shall terrify those men of whom we have been speaking, having a name containing the aforesaid number, is truly the abomination of desolation. ... It is therefore more certain, and less hazardous, to await the fulfillment of the prophecy, than to be making surmises, and casting about for any names that may present themselves, inasmuch as many names can be found possessing the number mentioned; and the same question will, after all, remain unsolved. ... But he indicates the number of the name now, that when this "man" comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is: ... But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this "man" and those who follow "him" into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom, that is, the rest, the hallowed seventh day; and restoring to Abraham the promised inheritance, in which kingdom the Lord declared, that many coming from the east and from the west should sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob." [Irenaeus: Against Heresies, Book V, XXX]

" an apostate and a robber, is anxious to be adored as God; and that, although a mere slave, he wishes himself to be proclaimed as a king. For he being endued with all the power of the devil, shall come, not as a righteous king, nor a legitimate king in subjection to God, but an impious, unjust, and lawless 'one'; as an apostate, iniquitous, and murderous, as a robber, concentrating in himself satanic apostasy, and seeking aside idols to persuade that he himself is God raising up himself as the only idol, having in himself the multifarious errors of the other idols. This he does, in order that they who do worship the devil by means of many abominations, may serve himself by this one idol, of whom the apostle thus speaks in the second Epistle to the Thessalonians."

"And there is therefore in this beast, when he (Antichrist) comes, a recapitulation made of all sorts of iniquity and of every deceit, in order that all apostate power, flowing into and being shut up in him, may be sent into the furnace of fire...since he sums up in his own person all the commixture of wickedness which took place previous to the deluge, due to the apostasy of the angels."

"In a still clearer light has John, in the Apocalypse, indicated to the Lord’s disciples what shall happen in the last times, and concerning the ten kings who shall then arise...These have one mind, and give their strength and power to the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them, because He is the Lord of lords, and King of kings...And they (Ten Kings) shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the church to flight. After that they shall be destroyed by the coming of our Lord.” [Against Heresies V, XXVI, 1]

"But he indicates the number of the name now, that when this man comes we may avoid him, being aware of who he is:...But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple in Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom, that is, the rest, the hallowed seventh day; and restoring to Abraham the promised inheritance, in which kingdom the Lord declared, that “many coming from the east and from the west should sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.” [Against Heresies V, XXX, 2, 4]

"For all these and other words were unquestionably spoken in reference to the resurrection of the just, which takes place after the coming of the Antichrist, and the destruction of nations under his rule; in (the times of) which (resurrection) the righteous shall reign on the earth...and those whom the Lord shall find in the flesh, awaiting Him from heaven, and who have suffered tribulation, as well as escaped the hands of the Wicked 'one' (Antichrist)." [Against Heresies V, XXXV, 1]

Hippolytus: Bishop of Portus, was a disciple of Irenaeus who was discipled by Polycarp who sat under John.(AD. 170-236)

"As these things, then, are in the future, and as the ten toes of the image are equivalent to (so many) democracies, and the ten horns of the fourth beast are distributed over ten kingdoms, let us look at the subject a little more closely, and consider these matters as in the clear light of a personal survey. The golden head of the image and the lioness denoted the Babylonians; the shoulders and arms of silver, and the bear, represented the Persians and Medes; the belly and thighs of brass, and the leopard, meant the Greeks, who held the sovereignty from Alexander’s time; the legs of iron, and the beast dreadful and terrible, expressed the Romans, who hold the sovereignty at present; the toes of the feet which were part clay and part iron, and the ten horns, were emblems of the kingdoms that are yet to rise; the other little horn that grows up among them meant the Antichrist in their midst; the stone that smites the earth and brings judgment upon the world was Christ." [Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 27,28]

It is proper that we take the Holy Scriptures themselves in hand, and find out from them what, and of what manner, the coming of Antichrist is; on what occasion and at what time that impious one shall be revealed; and whence and from what tribe (he shall come); and what his name is, which is indicated by the number in Scripture; and how he shall work error among the people, gathering them from the ends of the earth; and (how) he shall stir up tribulation and persecution against the saints; and how he shall glorify himself as God; and what his end shall be; and how the sudden appearing of the Lord shall be revealed from heaven; and what the conflagration of the whole world shall be; and what the glorious and heavenly kingdom of the saints is to be, when they reign together with Christ; and what the punishment of the wicked by fire...With respect to his name, it is not in our power to explain it exactly, as the blessed John understood it and was instructed about it, but only to give a conjectural account of it; for when he appears, the blessed one will show us what we seek to know... Wherefore we ought neither to give it out as if this were certainly his name, nor again ignore the fact that he may not otherwise be designated. But having the mystery of God in our heart, we ought in fear to keep faithfully what has been told us by blessed prophets, in order that when those things come to pass, we may be prepared for them, and not be deceived. For when the times advance, he too, of whom these things are said, will be manifest...Now concerning the tribulation of the persecution which is to fall upon the Church from the adversary, John also speaks thus, "And I saw a great and wondrous sign in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, ... And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent”...That refers to the one thousand two hundred and threescore days (the half of the week) during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the Church.... These things then, being come to pass, beloved, and the one week being divided into two parts, and the abomination of desolation being manifested then, and the two prophets and forerunners of the Lord having finished their course, and the whole world finally approaching the consummation, what remains but the coming of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ from heaven, for whom we have looked in hope." [Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 5, 50, 60, 61, 64]

"For the deceiver seeks to liken himself in all things to the Son of God. Christ is a lion, so Antichrist is also a lion; Christ is a king, so Antichrist is also a king. The Savior was manifested as a lamb; so he too in like manner, will appear as a lamb, though within he is a wolf. The Savior came into the world in the circumcision, and he will come in the same manner. The Lord sent apostles among all the nations, and he in like manner will send false apostles. The Savior gathered together the sheep that were scattered abroad, and he in like manner will bring together a people that is scattered abroad. The Lord gave a seal to those who believed on Him; and he will give one in like manner. The Savior appeared in the form of man, and he too will come in the form of a man. The Savior raised up and showed His holy flesh like a temple, and he will raise a temple of stone in Jerusalem."

"He (Antichrist) will be harsh, severe, passionate, wrathful, terrible, inconstant, dread, morose, hateful, abominable, savage, vengeful, iniquitous. And, bent on casting the whole race of men into the pit of perdition, he will multiply false signs."

“When the times are fulfilled, and the ten horns spring from the beast in the last (times), then Antichrist will appear among them. When he makes war against the saints, and persecutes them, then may we expect the manifestation of the Lord from heaven. [Fragments from Commentaries, II, 7]

these shall be sent through every city and country to destroy the faithful; and the saints shall travel from the west to the east, and shall be driven in persecution from the east to the south, while others shall conceal themselves in the mountains and caves; and the abomination shall war against them everywhere, and shall cut them off by the sea and by land by his decree, and shall endeavor by every means to destroy them out of the world; and they shall not be able any longer to sell their own property, nor to buy from strangers, unless one keeps and carries with him the name of the beast, or bears its mark upon his forehead. For then they shall all be driven out from place to place, and dragged from their own homes and haled into prison, and punished with all manner of punishment, and cast out from the whole world." These shall awake to everlasting life."

Tertullian (c. 160 - 225)

“[Babylon] that the city of fornication may receive from the ten kings its deserved doom, and that the beast Antichrist, with his false prophet may wage war on the Church of God...Since, then, the Scriptures both indicate the stages of the last times, and concentrate on the harvest of the Christian hope in the very end of the world ...Now the privilege of this favor (the resurrection) awaits those who shall at the coming of the Lord be found in the flesh, and who shall, owing to the oppressions of the time of Antichrist, deserve by an instantaneous death, which is accomplished by a sudden change, to become qualified to join the rising saints...” [On the Resurrection of the Flesh, XXV, 7 and XLI]

Lactantius (260-330)

"He (Antichrist) shall harass the word with an intolerable rule; shall mingle things divine and human; shall contrive things impious to relate, and detestable; shall meditate new designs in his breast, that he may establish the government for himself; he will change the laws, and appoint his own; he will contaminate, plunder, spoil, and put to death."

Hi castling,

Been pondering your question about the sign of the Son of man. I always think of Stephen seeing heaven opened, and the Son of God standing there. This reminds me of the door which is opened in heaven, early in Revelation.

There is also the sound of the trumpet.

Lastly, there are three times in the gospels when God spoke from heaven. Some people heard thunder, but John heard words.

Hi staff,

Here are some verse from Matthew 24. To whom do you understand they refer?

8 All these [are] the beginning of sorrows. 9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Hi staff,

moment the AntiChrist breaks the covenant and exalts himself in middle fo the 7 year period.

Hi staff,

Actually, I asked you a question, and you answered it.

From: Daniel 9:27 KJV
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease , and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate , even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate .

You get:

'the AntiChrist breaks the covenant and exalts himself in middle fo the 7 year period'.

Why do you think this is talking about an AntiChrist?

Hi mguldner,

Good to have another voice in this discussion!

I think staff's question can be read another way, but the points you made are very relevant, as angels keep cropping up.

Who are the angels gathering in heaven?

Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, [in whom] my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

Ephesians 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of OUR INHERITANCE until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, 16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; 17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: 18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of HIS INHERITANCE in the saints,

Isaiah 65:9 And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.

Hebrews 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 AND TO JESUS THE MEDIATOR OF THE NEW COVENANT, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel.

Hi staff,

Thanks for your latest reply.

I want to explain that I'm not trying to put you on the spot with my questions. I don't know how anyone believes in pre-trib rapture, so I'm interested to find out which verses are brought by those who believe it, to support that belief.

I have assumed you reached the pre-trib conclusion following Bible study, so that's why I wanted to know which verses support it being the AntiChrist in the middle of the week being responsible for the sacrifice ending.

Alternatively it could be Christ that cause sacrifice to cease but its in the middle of the week that it happens.

The sacrifice has ceased already. It ceased at the time of the cross. Do you have any idea why that was, and how it should help you determine which character caused it to cease?

Philip your a riot.

I will explain the importance of knowing this in my next post.

There certainly is a Man of Sin that must be revealed;

" Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,...

We ask you not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come." [Paul foresaw the deception the secret rapture doctrine may produce...]

"Let no one deceive you by any means!"

"For that Day WILL NOT COME unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition!"

[He] opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

"Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?"

I think that this event is the one and same word given to Daniel....."The Abomination that destroys and creates desolations.."...and that Jesus also prophesied of...

4 “So when you see the ‘Abomination of Desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not...

"For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the Creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be."..MK:13

"Lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near!"

Hi staff,

3.Jesus didnt correct the sister of Lazuras about Abrahams Bosom either a fact that she didnt seem to understand correctly

(Re her reference to the 'last day'. Where does Abraham's bosom come into it? Rememeber, Jesus frequently taught in their house. Perhaps He had revised Martha's understanding by the time He asked her that question. Maybe she (and the disciples), knew more about the 'last day' than we do!)

If these scriptures are in reference to the day before the millenium, how come they are doing normal things.They are after going through the Great Tribulation

Now, if you are of the camp which believes only JEWS, or Jewish Christians, go through a great tribulation, there is nothing in the New Testament to support such a view

and wheres the effect of the Mark of the beast.

Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

The days of tribulation are not shortened for the sake of the unsaved, whose flesh all will perish in the end.

"Immediately after the distress of those days " 'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'

If you notice here, Jacob had no trouble interpreting the dream to mean his kindred.

Genesis 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun(jacob) and the moon(rachel) and the eleven stars(patriarchs) made obeisance to me.

Genesis 37:10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?

Hi staff,

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

All the tribulation - great or small - is against Christians.

I'm not saying non-Christians don't get problems - even attacks from the enemy of their souls - tragedy in their lives and families; but, we all know how God uses these things to draw people to Himself when they cry out to Him.

I do find it amazing that you quote this verse which says it is such a difficult time that NO FLESH be saved which is christian and non christian alike

Do you have any thoughts about that?

Hi Matthew,

Well, I'm hanging in here because it helps me to Bible study. I have never dug into eschatology, although I've had a rough idea of what the historical Church believed, because I come from a Christian family.

My grandfather (a teacher of Hebrew) was absolutely against the changes which were brought to doctrine in a roundabout way in the 1850s, which have produced the concept of a lone, future antiChrist, ever being pushed further into the future as the years roll by. To him it was obvious that some prophecy has been fulfilled and some has not.

SI does not particularly promote the historical view, so much of my engagement with these topics is an exploration of how many crazy ideas are out here, floating around IN THE CHURCH!!!

Your concern is appreciated. :)

Hi staff,

The order according to Jesus not me is that gods people are taken out or protected first then comes Gods Judgement

There is no question that Christians will be protected from the judgment which is coming upon the world. And perhaps you are correct that the tribulation will affect everyone. The difficulty I have with that view is exactly the point you make about some people carrying on as normal.

However, if there is a lull - as indicated by the figure of a woman giving birth, or Noah building the Ark, or Lot being allowed to go to a small nearby town - before the destruction, which is also compatible with Matthew 24, then even if everyone goes through tribulation, this is not to be confused with God's final wrath.

Staff wrote: "One thing that has worried me of late is some post tribulation christians calling others heretics.(not any of the posters)."

Heresy in the Greek means "the opinion chosen" - so I don't believe that anyone should be afraid of using that word.

I can call pre-trib or preterism heresy and not be out of line, because it's used enough times in His WORD.

One need only to read HIS WORD and what the very earliest of the Early Church Fathers wrote and a bit more History of The Church to find whether a person's views are their "chosen opinion" or Biblical Truth.

The day we have to fear speaking out against people's chosen opinions versus what is written through-out HIS WORD and the History of HIS Church and the History of their beliefs, is the day that it is no longer called "Christian fellow-ship", Biblically.

Blessings!

Hi staff,

I know you see it as 7yrs and I see it as 3.5yrs

God pours out his wrath evenly accross the tribulation period or just at the end.

I cant see God protect us from his Judgement by keeping us on earth,when at some stage we have to meet him in the air anyway.

Hi staff,

gods wrath will happen during the same time period The great tribulation.

Maybe you and jimp are right that little progress has been made in this thread, but I have learned some useful facts through the Bible study this thread has provoked.

Hi staff,

Hi Alive to God, I think you read my last thread to Jimp wrong,I gave the opposite view than you thought.

Did you read the implied question before my incorrect comment?

Matthew 24 by J.C. Ryle -

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=3593

I studied this for over 30 years

I have heard men say they have studied a particular subject for many years. They boast that because they have 'years' of study behind them that that means that their conclusions are untouchable. The Pharisees believed that the "Tradition of the Elders" was a teaching that men should abide by and they even integrated into the word of God thus making the word of God of non effect. In much the same way we have done the same thing.

In our pride, we have boasted within ourselves that we have the right teaching of whatever we are studying because we have given so many hours, days, years, or bible schooling to these that we too think that because of time spent on the subject we believe within ourselves that that gives us the credentials that one is right. And Jesus cast down those notions in one hour when He went into the Temple and drove out the money changers. He drove out the teachings of the elders that had attached itself to the word of God to the point that people were exclaiming "Never a man spake like this man".

I put forth the challenge, where in the book of Daniel is there a suggestion of a 7 year tribulation period spoken of?

If we are honest with ourselves and to God, we can ask Him for direction and if we wait for His answer, He will whisper and say, "it's not there, you have been believing your own way".

The seven year tribulation teachings are a made up man made teaching that is a little over one hundred years old in design.

The only way that teaching can be had from scripture is through commentaries, bible side notes especially the author himself Schofield.

I am interested in the idea that the abomination of desolation may have begun before AD 70, which seems to be implied by the 'midst of the week' (Dan 9:27)

In this resepect, can anyone tell me to which scripture John is referring in the second part of verse 22?

John 2:13 And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem, 14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting: 15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables; 16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise. 17 And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up. 18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things? 19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21 But he spake of the temple of his body. 22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said. 23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast [day], many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did. 24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all [men], 25 And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.

Additionally, I have a question for savannah, to which I hope he will reply.

It is: to which 'generation' should we believe Matthew was referring when he wrote the first sentence of his gospel: 'The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.'

My conviction is, that many will be taken by shock or horror when the events begin to further unfold - and because Daniel & the Revelation ARE being "un-sealed" NOW and can be disclosed by some - but heretics and the fearful-to-speak-up won't permit the issues of this day to be discussed without much Interference - the welfare of the lambs will be on their heads - before GOD.

Rev 22:19 "And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy,

God shall take away his part out of the book of life,

and out of the holy city,

and from the [promises to the Overcomers] things which are written in this book."

Hi, Dear Bro Approved, I studied those years to come to the point to where I can say that I do not know anything about what is going to happen or when or how.jimp

Rev 22:19 "And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy,

Another translation: If any man comes against what most believers have come to know as truth regarding the book of Revelation, the Rapture and the coming of the Lord, let him be accursed.

Another translation: If any man doesn't go along with Israel rebuilding the temple and the 7 years of great tribulation, anti Christ, Rapture, Resurrection, New Heavens, New Earth, kingdom of God in Jerusalem, let him be accursed.

This is really what we are saying. We have more respect for loose teachings than we do with the actual wording of the bible. Loose teachings are scriptures that men have taken and added 'ideas' into the minds of believers to generate a hope that doesn't exist. I use the word hope not in the sense of hoping for something, but in the sense of that what we are translating is the correct thinking.

I for one am not a blind believer. I may be very well blind to certain things, but I am not blind in the way of reading. I am blind to not seeing the full texture of what is written spiritually, for the Lord Himself imparts to our spirit the full meaning of His word as He wills. But I am not talking about that. I am talking about the words that are in ink printed on paper. That we seem to skim over certain words as to mean something that must be for another time and place and yet the wording is clear that what is being spoken is for that day and hour.

Lets take an example: I'll take the verse before and after so that we can bring out the full flavour of what the Apostle Peter was saying.

1 Peter 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

1 Peter 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

1 Peter 4:8 And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.

I hope that none of us are going to say that verse 7 is some where off in the future. This was written nearly 2000 years ago. Look at how Peter is using the word "At hand". The nearness of the hour to what he was speaking.

Today, we hear the same preachers say the same thing and we believe it to be true. They will say, "The coming of the Lord is at hand".

How can we accept this preachers message and reject Peter's?

Was Peter speaking out of terms when he said, "The end of all things is at hand"?

Is that preachers "at hand" more important than Peter's "at hand"? If so, how?

Now if we say it's because Israel has become a nation and the coming of the Lord is at hand, than why was Peter misled to believe that the "end of all things is at hand"? If misled, then it can't be inspired writings. But it WAs inspired writing.

I am being a Berean, I am studying the word of God and no one can fault me in the particulars when it comes to the wording of God's word.

A friend of mine pointed out the other day to which I was most thankful for in that whenever the prophets said, "thus sayeth the Lord". The wording is in the past tense. It means that God had already spoken it and He treats it as done. He is not waiting for it to unfold, to Him it's already done. We have to wait for these things to unfold being subjected to this realm.

And I still can't find a 7 year tribulation period in any of the scriptures. And when I ask people to look for it I get excuses of, "I know it's there, I don't have to find it, I know what I believe".

That is scary. My apple cart has been upset by the Lord at times, I don't mind Him doing it again. If I can't find it, I don't want to have an untruth in my spirit.

God Bless, I enjoyed typing this. Perhaps the next posting we can get into the deep wells of the word of God and not just use one verse of Peter's but many many more.

To Approved, how can you "translate" my thoughts on the Scripture that I posted as you have?

This is what I posted on Page 1 of this thread and I give all the very same advice.

One day, in this world, everyone here will wish they had done this... and I'll be waiting to meet you when we're finally with Him and hoping you say that you did do this and WERE ready for when it all came down. In His Love!

Staff, what you need to do is, with pen and paper, make three rows and write down in the first line, what happens with each of the 7 Seals. In the second column, what happens with the 7 trumpets and then in the third column, what happens with the 7 vials which are called GOD's Wrath.
Many of us - not all - believe that we are resurrected at the last or 7th trumpet and His Wrath is poured out with His Coming - while we've met Him "in the air".

You have all these things happening all at the same time and that's where you've made a mixture there.

Besides, I see nothing about 7 years - only 3 1/2 years of antiChrist.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:

and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus,

and for the word of God,

and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands;

and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

This is the FIRST resurrection.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the FIRST resurrection:

on such the second death hath no power,

but they shall be priests of God and of Christ,

and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rapture means gathering together..[Parousia], so, obviously those in the passage below had been RAPTURED!....gathered together.

Matthew 24 states very clearly; that "AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS", that all the earth would mourn, and the sign of the Son of Man should appear, and He returns with wrath....and gather together all the saints, from every end of the Earth....EVERY EYE.....

So, logically, to believe the Pre-Tribulation version of Events, there must be a SECRET RAPTURE BEFORE the Tribulation....in effect, TWO RETURNS of Jesus. To actually believe this fantasy, you must to a lot of construction to hammer this idea in. Scripture does not support it, and Jesus never said it. He spoke of ONE return to gather all.

These below, went in to "GREAT TRIBULATION".., and CAME OUT!

REV.7:...The Raptured Saints.
After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,

10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11 All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:

“ Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom,
Thanksgiving and honor and power and might,
Be to our God forever and ever.
Amen.”

13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”
14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”

So he said to me, “These are the ones who COME OUT of THE GREAT TRIBULATION, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. ...............................................

ONE RAPTURE, NOT TWO...AND NOT SECRET....AFTER......

Paul writes in his Chapter on the resurrection - 1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's AT His coming.

How Many Times is Jesus 'Coming',

1-With His Angels?

2-With The Glory?

3-With The Clouds?

4-As a Thief ?

These are complete lists that answer these questions -

**Jesus “Coming with His Angels“.**

Matthew 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the "end of the world"; and the reapers are the angels.
Matthew 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

Matthew 13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
Matthew 13:49 So shall it be "at the end of the world": the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Matt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Luke 9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.

1Thess. 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

2Thessalonians 1:7-10 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

** Jesus Coming in “Glory”.**

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Luke 9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.

Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

2Thess. 1:9 who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

2Thess. 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ

Rev. 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

** Jesus “Coming in the Clouds” **

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Acts 1:10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

1Thess. 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

**Jesus "Coming as a Thief".**

1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

(Important Chapter) 2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

There are countless verses that mention His "Coming".

I'll post them all soon and it will show where we get the belief that we are "Gathered AT His Coming"... and that there's only One Coming, called His Second Coming.

In His Love.

Brother, I don't think the debate can be helped, but I do know it helps.

Thanks!

"The Holy Spirit will not be on earth as He is now, He will be here but with a different work of the Spirit in the Tribulation especially the great last 3 1/2 years like no one has ever seen or ever will see again."

Where doth this saying in holy writ that the Spirit shall not be upon this earth as He is now but doeth a different work?

Doest thou speakest about the supposed three and one half years when the Jews shall be mightily used of God during this alleged period of time, is that what thou meanest when thou sayest "a different work of the Spirit"?

To go along with this that means that there is a gap between the 69th and 70th weeks of Daniel.

What sayest thou?

A lot of the Kingdom of God teaching is applicable to the church, but anyone born of the Spirit would recognize that it is not church teaching.

Where are these teachings coming from? It can't be from God's word because there is nothing in the New Testament that shares with that idea.

Let me for a moment post Paul's writing regarding the kingdom of God, not only to the Jews but also to the Gentiles.

Matthew 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Matthew 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

1 Corinthians 4:20 For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.

Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Mark 1:14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,

Acts 1:3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Sounds like a kingdom message amongst born again believers doesn't it?

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Matthew 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Colossians 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son.

It would be hilarious if He came right now and found all His servants brawling over end-time prophecy.

Staff,

The way I understand it is:

The ark
Lot being taken out of the city
The barn for the wheat

All represents a place of safety from the wrath of God (not necessarily from affliction/tribulations). A separation of Good and evil.

When the Kingdom of God is spoken about being "already, not yet",this is the already part. We are in the world but separated because we are In Christ.

With the weeds being bundled first I think it is about being seperated rather than the weeds being taken out of the world. Note the weeds are bundled, not burnt before the wheat is gathered into the barn. The wrath is the weeds being burnt not bundled.

Does that make any sense?

Strange that I haven't noticed "brawling or arguing" on this thread.

Why is it that when some are not interested in certain discussions or it's just not their desired type conversation or topic, that the only contributions they can make to a thread are accusatory?

Why not, just don't get involved and let others discuss what interests them?
Is pointing fingers at other brethren who enjoy discussing this topic make one more lofty or holy?

"Our Blessed Hope" is not an off-limits topic and it's surprising that those who normally cry out for peace the most would stir up a peaceful discussion by making some accusations that it's not peaceful.
A Confusing contradiction of a so-called 'purpose' it appears.

Did you find that Paul never had to discuss these things in his epistles, because of others trying to teach the churches he was overseeing something other than what he had taught them?

I love discussing our Blessed Hope and will until I see Him.

1Co 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ

Not offended. Just didn't think that someone who's been on this forum for 16 months and has only posted 16 posts had any right to judge others here - seeing how we had to deal with one of his other "peace-making" posts just within this month.

As long as Scripture is posted - I don't think it's a merry-go-round because HIS Word never goes out void. We may not see the fruit of such threads tomorrow, but HE is faithful to His WORD. I believe the only way to judge a doctrine is by the weight of Scripture backing it.

Thanks Brother - I love peace too - more than I can put into words just yet.

David, you said,

Matt 13 is Jesus'teaching about kingdom of God, not about the church. It is important that we all believe Paul's teaching that the church, the body of Christ was a mystery, not revealed to previous ages, and Jesus is not revealing the church here in His kingdom teaching. Jesus was teaching Jews who believed certain things about the kingdom. He was teaching during the 69th week of Daniel's prophesy and teaching Daniel's people, the Jews. For them, the end of the age was of course the end of the 70th week, and He would return then to set up His kingdom on earth. A lot of the Kingdom of God teaching is applicable to the church, but anyone born of the Spirit would recognise that it is not church teaching.

That word 'church', is a translation of ekklesia (Strong's number 1577), which was the point Jesus Christ was making when He spoke of 'my church' to Peter, in Matthew 16:18. In Stephen's context (the wilderness), 'church' is set against the word 'synagogue', which means 'mixed multitude'. From amongst the 'synagogue' of descendants of Jacob and Egyptians (amd maybe others), the called-out ones (ecclesia) were the descendants of Jacob (in the wilderness).

In the context Christ spoke to Peter, the ecclesia were (to be) those who through the power of the cross (dying daily), left the natural family of Jacob to become sons of God (through the Spirit which was not yet given, and which neither Peter nor the disciples understood at the time).

Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.

I fully accept there was much revelation still to come for those men on the ground at the time Jesus spoke in Matthew 16. But, once Gentiles had been brought into the 'church' of which JESUS had spoken, Paul is at pains to show there is no division by nationality, rank or gender, in HIS body on the earth.

John 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth. 25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. 26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am [he]. 27 And upon this came his disciples, and marvelled that he talked with the woman: yet no man said, What seekest thou? or, Why talkest thou with her?

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd.

In fact, Matthew himself quotes Isaiah several times, making the very point himself in the light of Jewish history and expectation of the Messiah whom Jews had rejected, that there was ample prophecy to warn them that if they did not receive their God when He came, their 'kingdom' would be taken from them, and given to a people who were not even watching for it. When Jesus made some of His parables, He was encapsulating many pictures with which Jews were historically familiar - 'of the family'.

I think it is a stretch - a really big stretch - to say that the Jews in general knew they were in Daniel's 70th week, and that therefore they expected 'the end of the age ... and He would return then to set up His kingdom on earth'. Why do I say that? John 6:66 From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. 67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? 68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

We know that there were men and women in Israel (and Samaria), watching for Messiah - John 1:40 One of the two which heard John [speak], and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother. 41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.

But it must have become increasingly obvious as He went around healing the sick, casting out demons, raising the dead, and speaking of a world 'wherein dwelleth righteousness' - 2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness - that He was not fulfilling their human expectations.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Matthew 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

True, they held on to them after His resurrection, which was a natural thing to do, but He had spoken many times of going somewhere else to receive His kingdom, that they could follow 'after'. John 13:36 Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, 'Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards.'

Notably, the cross stood between them and where He was going - Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus: 7 That IN THE AGES TO COME he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Matthew 23:33 [Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? 34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and [some] of them ye shall kill and crucify; and [some] of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute [them] from city to city: 35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. 36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

Luke 13:33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the [day] following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.

34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen [doth gather] her brood under [her] wings, and ye would not! 35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until [the time] come when ye shall say, Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Matthew 27:25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood [be] on us, and on our children.

John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am [he], and [that] I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed.

30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Despite all this, the disciples still asked (Acts 1:6) 'Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?'

7 And he said unto them, 'It is NOT for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8 BUT ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: AND ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

When I read their question, I want to reverse it, so it says 'wilt thou at this time restore Israel to the kingdom', because the kingdom of God has ever been. It is mankind who has been excluded from it.

Luke 11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

Matthew 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

Somewhere along the line, Israelites had forgotten that 'the kingdom' was only theirs while godly kings were on their earthly throne. When an ungodly king was on their throne, they inevitably incurred God's displeasure and that generation was slaughtered somehow.

God had a radical solution to this problem. He had never been willing to destroy man completely, but 'And truly, if they had been mindful of that [country] from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 But now they desire a better [country], that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.' (Heb 11) And we ARE THERE, according to the next chapter.

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel.

25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more [shall not] we [escape], if we turn away from him that [speaketh] from heaven: 26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. 27 And this [word], Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of THINGS THAT ARE MADE, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: 29 For our God [is] a consuming fire.

Mark 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

Luke 18:17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.

John 3:3 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

John 3:5 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Thanks AtG THAT was a refreshing post.

A couple of things needs clarification, but on the whole it was a good piece.

Hi staff,

Why would God need to protect the wheat in the barn when all evil and evil doers have already been collected?

EDIT: I meant to add a comment on

43 THEN the righteous WILL SHINE like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

This is a quote from Daniel. The context is after the resurrection of the dead from their graves. 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.

3 And they that be wise SHALL SHINE as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness [shall shine] as the stars for ever and ever.

Hi David,

I would rather discuss these matters in another thread.

May I suggest it be entitled 'The kingdom of God'?

Either way, that's what I would like to discuss across the breadth of scripture.

Hi Phillip,

Are you saying there was a difference from the church in the wilderness from the Church the Body of Christ? Before the Cross and after the Cross?

I was nearly finished a fuller post, when my system decided to close all my tabs. (It's rather old!) I would like to sign off for tonight, and give you more of the verses I have in mind, tomorrow.

But to start you off, you could look for the places where the writers of the epistles are talking to believers, and they refer to those who do not believe as 'Gentiles', or, in John's case he puts it, 'Little children, keep yourselves from idols'.

If unbelievers are Gentiles, then believers are 'Israel', including the believing Gentiles. That is really the point I am making. Whereas in the wilderness, no Gentile (Egyptian or other) was able to partake of the Passover BECAUSE they were not descended from Jacob.

We know that circumcision fell by the wayside during the forty years, but, from Sinai onwards, when God had given the Israelites the law, included within the law were many provisions for non-Israelites formally to become part of Israel (circumcision needful), and to share in the Atonement. If a man became circumcised, his wife automatically benefitted as being one flesh with him.

The thing which changed in the New Covenant, is the NECESSITY for circumcision of the heart (open to women in their own right), through repentance and faith in Christ, and for all to have GOD as his spiritual Father (Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected [us], and we gave [them] reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?)

One only has to look at the religious leaders' reaction in John 5:18 'Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God', to see how very far from the traditional Jewish system this was.

I was nearly finished a fuller post, when my system decided to close all my tabs.

I don't really know what is going to happen but it seems the final judgement comes like a thief in the night, so we must always be ready for our own death or the end of the age, which ever comes first for us.

I am a she by the way. Andie is short for Andrea.

I just had a thought about this..

With Noah and Lot it was a earthly judgement. By saying that I believe it happened, but it was on earth so the saved lived physically and the lost died physically. So it was a TYPE of final judgement.

With the wheat and the tares Jesus was speaking about the kingdom of heaven.

Earth is planted with seeds by Jesus Christ, Satan plants weeds among them and they grow together until the end of the age.

With the final judgement I think the barn is the new new heaven and earth. So we are saved not just physically but our soul is saved with our new resurrection bodies.

The unsaved go to the everlasting fire.

As for the timing I don't know but I think the point Jesus was making was examine yourself to be sure you are in the faith because I can come anytime.

Brother staff,

Since andie has made some good points about timing, I would like to return to the 'lull' of which I spoke previously, which you wish to discount.

Again, let me point out that God had ALREADY decided to destroy everyone on earth apart from Noah's family. The EXECUTION of that judgment came MORE THAN A HUNDRED YEARS later.

That hundred years was a 'LULL'.

It was a lull from God's point of view, and from Noah's point of view, because God understood it would take time to build the Ark. It was also a lull from the point of view of those who were going to be destroyed, who DID NOT BELIEVE anything different was going to happen.

Later in Genesis, God made His intention known to Abraham, who bargained with Him while the angels made the journey to actually bring Lot out. That was a lull - albeit a lot shorter than the one in Noah's case. However, one must remember that what had happened in Noah's day was WELL known to Abraham and Lot, as Noah had only recently died (within the latest hundred years).

In Lot's case the angels were there for several hours, and Lot had time to save his daughters from a horrible fate (Judges 19:22 - 28), and, to warn the rest of his household (Gen 19:14), who thought he was mocking their intelligence. Then, they journeyed, and still the destruction had not fallen upon the cities. But when it fell rather near them, they decided somewhat belatedly to go to where the angels had urged in the first place.

How many of us are like that? Think we know better than God till it's a small miracle we aren't in His way when He keeps His word?

Lastly, I want to turn to a frequent picture which occurs at least TWENTY times in scripture, including mentioned by Jesus in John 16:21, of a woman labouring in childbirth.

There are three stages in labour, simply numbered one, two and three. The first stage builds up slowly (normally), especially if it is the first time this woman has laboured, then just before stage two, THERE IS A LULL when her body prepares itself for the last onslaught of a different sort of pain, during which she finds relief by pushing the baby out into the world. (I will stop here with this analogy.) My point is, there is always warning. But, once in labour there is nothing natural which will stop it. It takes over the life of the woman until she is delivered from it through the birth of her child.

Whether we like it or not, there is nothing we can do to stop the process which is already in motion. We can co-operate with it, or, it can kill us. Our choice.

1 Timothy 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

Hi Phillip,

I would like to come back to answering more directly the question you posed, after drawing your attention to pointers we can see in the New Testament particularly, which seem to distinguish different groups of people.

From the gospel writers, there is a leaning towards making a distinction between the people who believed Jesus was 'that prophet' (Deu 18:18, Acts 3:22, Matt 13:57, Luke 7:16, 13:33, 24:19, John 7:40), and 'the Jews'.

John 7:1 After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him.

I am not clear whether there were Jews who were Sadducees, because I've heard there were Edomites (descendants of Esau) involved in the Temple by this time. I'm not sure how this happened, but it was completely against what God had ordained in Exodus.

There were definitely Israelite/Jewish Pharisees, who did believe in 'resurrection', and Paul uses this to create a bit of chaos on the ground when giving his defence in Acts 23:6 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men [and] brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.

Acts 23:8 For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both.

Later: Acts 25:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: 15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust

Acts 26:2 I think myself happy, king Agrippa, because I shall answer for myself this day before thee touching all the things whereof I AM ACCUSED OF THE JEWS: 3 Especially [because I know] thee to be expert in all customs and questions which are among the Jews: wherefore I beseech thee to hear me patiently. 4 My manner of life from my youth, which was at the first among mine own nation at Jerusalem, KNOW ALL THE JEWS; 5 Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee. 6 And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God unto our fathers: 7 Unto which [promise] OUR TWELVE TRIBES, instantly serving [God] day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews.

Note how there is a clear distinction between 'Jews' and 'Israel'. I'm not totally sure what it means, because early in Acts when there is preaching in synagogues, Jews believe in Christ, as well as Jews rejecting Christ (who stir up trouble for the Christians).

Then there are the famous verses in Acts 9 and 10.

I've noted when Paul and Peter wrote to CHURCHES which contained both Israelite/Jewish and Gentile Christians, the Gentile believers were subsumed into 'Israel', and unbelievers were subsumed into 'Gentiles'.

The most obvious of these is when Peter is quoting Exodus 19:4-6, in 1 Peter 2:9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: 10 Which in time past [were] not a people, but [are] now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Peter goes on: 11 Dearly beloved, I beseech [you] as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul; 12 Having your conversation honest AMONG THE GENTILES: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by [your] good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

Peter also has used the phrase 'were not a people', which refers to Gentiles: Deuteronomy 32 from 15 (Jeshurun waxed fat) to 21 They have moved me to jealousy with [that which is] not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with [those which are] not a people; I will provoke them to anger with A FOOLISH NATION.

Paul quotes Moses here, in Romans 10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by [them that are] no people, [and] by a foolish nation I will anger you.

And moves on to quote Isaiah: Romans 10:20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. 21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

It is clear that Paul is comparing natural Israel who refused to receive Christ, with Gentiles who had found Christ.

However, when writing generally to the Church, both Peter and Paul seem to include unbelieving Jews with the Gentiles as a kind of shorthand, since they both know that the Gentiles who believed were ADDED to believing ISRAEL, amongst whom as 'the Church', they are ONE body on earth.

There ARE places where the Jews are distinguished for persecuting Jewish Christians, and where non-Jewish Christians were persecuted by their own people.

2 Cor 11:26 [In] journeyings often, [in] perils of waters, [in] perils of robbers, [in] PERILS BY [MINE OWN] COUNTRYMEN, [in] perils by the heathen, [in] perils in the city, [in] perils in the wilderness, [in] perils in the sea, [in] perils among false brethren;

1 Thess 2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things OF YOUR OWN COUNTRYMEN, even as they [have] of the Jews

The distinction Paul makes in Romans 2:29 is crucial to 'seeing' with spiritual eyes that the 'Israel' moving forward with God under the New Covenant, was first begun with believing Israelites, who continue to be added to 'the Church' worldwide throughout all ages, to which also began to be added in Paul and Peter's day, believing Gentiles.

But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.

Clearly, this statement divides between Jews who cried 'Crucify', and, 'We have no king but Caesar', and, Jews like Andrew and John, who went to fetch Peter in John 1:41 '... We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ', and, 44 Now Philip was of Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter. 45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph,' and:

Luke 2:25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name [was] Simeon; and the same man [was] just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him. 26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ... 34 And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this [child] is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against;

And she [Anna] coming in [to the Temple] that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem.

I hope that you see in the New Testament there are NATURAL divisions between people groups - Israel, Edom (Moab Matt 1:5) and Gentiles - and that by separation unto Jesus Christ by faith, from each of those people groups, (only) TWO new groups emerge - believers and unbelievers.

EDIT: Of course there were also Jews who changed there mind after Pentecost. (Acts 2:38, Acts 6:7 And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.)

Sorry that was a bit long.

Now I want to look at the Old Testament, hopefully a bit shorter.

to be contd.

Agreed about the Barn but I think what Andie72 was saying is that the barn was a type of God protecting Gods people from Gods Wrath here on earth not in heaven.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

The Ark is Christ Jesus. Our safety is being in Him.

As for the, "One shall be taken the other left".

Why is it assumed that the one being taken means they are being taken to some place of safety?

The disciples asked, "where Lord". Where will they be taken?

Matthew 24:28 For wheresoever the carcass is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

The king james is the only version that reads "Eagles", but in the other versions it's regarded as "Vultures" and rightly so.

Eagles do not light upon a carcass, nor do they swoop down and taste the tender vittles of road kill. Eagles like living prey, something that is moving and on the run, not something that is already dead.

And that is what is happening here. The one taken is dead to the life of God in them, in other words they have rejected the message of the gospel and are being taken away captive in their own imagination.

Jeremiah 19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:

Jeremiah 19:6 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that this place shall no more be called Tophet, nor The valley of the son of Hinnom, but The valley of slaughter.

Jeremiah 19:7 And I will make void the counsel of Judah and Jerusalem in this place; and I will cause them to fall by the sword before their enemies, and by the hands of them that seek their lives: and their carcasses will I give to be meat for the fowls of the heaven, and for the beasts of the earth.

Jeremiah 19:8 And I will make this city desolate, and an hissing; every one that passeth thereby shall be astonished and hiss because of all the plagues thereof.

Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Matthew 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

The last prophet that was sent to them was John, after that was their Messiah which the Jews had killed through gentile rulers. Jesus was speaking of the times that He was living in, to those that had killed the prophets and the one that shall be taken was going to go to their death because they chose the safety of the arm of flesh-Jerusalem instead of taking heed to the Masters voice, Matthew 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

I want you to notice something here. "Great Tribulation" is used differently in another gospel. Notice the wording, it's the same,

Luke 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Luke 21:22 For these be the Days of Vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

This is not against the whole wide world as we have been led to believe, but it was upon a people that killed the prophets.

The Jews from the first century down to our day have not killed prophets. So the modern day Jew is not guilty of that crime. Their crime today is not receiving Christ.

The Jew back in Christ day killed the prophets that were sent to them and they killed their Messiah through gentile rulers. Who is guilty of this vengeance, who deserved great tribulation?

2 Thessalonians 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

1 Thessalonians 2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:

1 Thessalonians 2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

1 Thessalonians 2:16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, "to fill up their sins always": for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

Matthew 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

Finish the transgression by killing your Messiah. Dan 9:24

The ark that everyone assumes is a place of safety for the one taken is not a place of safety at all. For our Ark is in Christ Jesus not on the arm of flesh.

To Phillip (contd.)

Hi, I've just discovered this post from you.

AtG; In my own confusion, Stevens refference to the Church is completely different to Jesus' refference to Peter, Christ building His Church, the "rock" being being Peters answer, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." Correct?

I just thought I saw Stevens church being the same and that was a contridiction in my small mind.

I will say more about the differences I see in another post, another time.

It is possible to read the exchange to which you refer, between Peter and Jesus Christ, slightly differently.

When Jesus met Peter the first time, this is what He said: (John 1:42) 'Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.'

In Matthew 16, note, it was Jesus who began with the question: 13 '...

Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

14 And they said,

Some [say that thou art] John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15 He saith unto them,

But whom say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said,

Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him,

Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Now, imagine you're Peter, and the FIRST thing Jesus did was give you the name, 'a stone'. This will have been going round in your mind, wondering what it has to do with anything!

Now, Peter had told Jesus He is the Son of the living God, and Jesus replies (brackets mine), (referring to Himself) '(thou art Peter) and upon this rock (Rock - Me) I (Jesus Christ) will build my church' (with living stones, of which you, Peter, are to be one).

Peter is well aware of the name for God 'the Rock of Israel'. (Deu 32 and)

Sam 23:2 The Spirit of the LORD spake by me [David], and his word [was] in my tongue. 3 The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me, He that ruleth over men [must be] just, ruling in the fear of God. 4 And [he shall be] as the light of the morning, [when] the sun riseth, [even] a morning without clouds; [as] the tender grass [springing] out of the earth by clear shining after rain. 5 Although my house [be] not so with God; yet he hath made with me an everlasting covenant, ordered in all [things], and sure: for [this is] all my salvation, and all [my] desire, although he make [it] not to grow.

Deuteronomy 32:1 Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth. 2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass: 3 Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.

4 [He is] the Rock, his work [is] perfect: for all his ways [are] judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right [is] he.

(There is a comparason of 'Rock' and 'rock' in Deu 32. See also 1 Cor 10:4.)

Peter again in 1 Peter 2: 4 To whom coming, [as unto] a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, [and] precious, 5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. 6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. 7 Unto you therefore which believe [he is] precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, 8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, [even to them] which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

Paul: Ephesians 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone]; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Jesus: Matthew 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Hi staff,

I feel you may be feeling frustrated by my lack of offering a composite train of events from scripture, so as to provide a template which you can accept, dispute, refute or at least consider.

I have found the Lord only ever gives enough information to keep us moving on. He frequently keeps back some of the details. In the Acts 1 case, He told the disciples 'It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.'

Can you receive it as meekly as they did?

There is a scripture burning in my heart to share.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment, 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for HIM shall He apper the second time without sin unto salvation.

That's what interests me.

I am not over-excited at the prospect, because I'm concerned to be sober, and to keep watching for Him, serving Him until the end, obeying my Father's will.

But I do have questions:

What will I know within my soul and spirit about what is going on?

Will I fall asleep in Christ and be aware of heaven immediately (as Stephen and others since then), or, will the next thing I know after death be that my body is rising from its earthly grave?

Or, will I still be alive when He returns, to be caught up with Him in the air?

I know what I have to do if I'm going to be like Him when He comes.

1 John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Hi Phillip,

Thanks for your patience.

About the Old Testament, I want to say as little as I can. Obviously, 'the church in the wilderness' was about Jews walking with God, amongst Gentiles who had brought their gods with them. (And as we know, these gods were also in the hearts of the Hebrew people, who had become slaves while in Egypt.)

There were, also, Gentiles who clearly had a relationship with God, from Adam and Eve to Noah, to Job and Abraham, and later Nebuchadnezzar and Cyrus (to name obvious ones), Rahab, and Ruth.

There are also many different scenarios about death (which is of interest when considering graves and resurrections), and the rapture. As far as I can see, the references to them create more questions than they answer, showing God totally in charge of life and death.

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Genesis 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he [was] not; for God took him.

Deuteronomy 34:5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. 6 And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day. 7 And Moses [was] an hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated.

2 Samuel 6:6 And when they came to Nachon's threshingfloor, Uzzah put forth [his hand] to the ark of God, and took hold of it; for the oxen shook [it]. {Nachon: also called Chidon} {shook it: or, stumbled} 7 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Uzzah; and God smote him there for [his] error; and there he died by the ark of God.

1 Kings 17:21 And [Elijah] stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again. 22 And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived. 23 And Elijah took the child, and brought him down out of the chamber into the house, and delivered him unto his mother: and Elijah said, See, thy son liveth.

2 Kings 4:32 And when Elisha was come into the house, behold, the child was dead, [and] laid upon his bed. 33 He went in therefore, and shut the door upon them twain, and prayed unto the LORD. 34 And he went up, and lay upon the child, and put his mouth upon his mouth, and his eyes upon his eyes, and his hands upon his hands: and he stretched himself upon the child; and the flesh of the child waxed warm. 35 Then he returned, and walked in the house to and fro; and went up, and stretched himself upon him: and the child sneezed seven times, and the child opened his eyes.

2 Kings 2:12 And Elisha saw [it], and he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And he [Elisha] saw him [Elijah] no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces.

2 Kings 13:20 And Elisha died, and they buried him. And the bands of the Moabites invaded the land at the coming in of the year. 21 1 And it came to pass, as they were burying a man, that, behold, they spied a band [of men]; and they cast the man into the sepulchre of Elisha: and when the man was let down, and touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood up on his feet.

Ezekiel 9:1 He cried also in mine ears with a loud voice, saying, Cause them that have charge over the city to draw near, even every man [with] his destroying weapon in his hand. 2 And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them [was] clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brasen altar. 3 And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which [had] the writer's inkhorn by his side; 4 And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof. {set a mark: Heb. mark a mark} 5 And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: {mine hearing: Heb. mine ears} 6 Slay utterly old [and] young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom [is] the mark; and begin at my sanctuary.

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt. 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

Matthew 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. 31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, 32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. 33 And when the multitude heard [this], they were astonished at his doctrine.

Luke 9:29 And as he [Jesus] prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment [was] white [and] glistering. 30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: 31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.

Acts 12:21 And upon a set day Herod, arrayed in royal apparel, sat upon his throne, and made an oration unto them. 22 And the people gave a shout, [saying, It is] the voice of a god, and not of a man. 23 And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost. 24 But the word of God grew and multiplied.

To staff,

I believe God can select those He wants to kill by a number of methods, and kill them with unerring accuracy.

Exodus 4:22 2 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel [is] my son, [even] my firstborn:

Exodus 12:29 And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that [was] in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.

Exodus 12:30 And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for [there was] not a house where [there was] not one dead.

Numbers 33:4 For the Egyptians buried all [their] firstborn, which the LORD had smitten among them: upon their gods also the LORD executed judgments.

The Hebrews had painted the blood upon the door posts of their houses in Egypt. The world is out 'Egypt', in which Christ has taken the pricks of the law (crown of thorns) upon Himself on our behalf, that we may have a conscience void of offence before God.

Hebrews 10:16 This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18 Now where remission of these [is, there is] no more offering for sin. 19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 21 And [having] an high priest over the house of God; 22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal,

The Lord knoweth them that are his.

And,

Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

IF there is no secret rapture AND the dead in Christ rise first with those who are alive being caught up into the air to be with the Lord AS He returns, then the only people on the earth will be those upon whom He is about to execute His judgment.

This creates another difficulty for those who don't seem to understand that WE - the CHURCH - have been sent IN CHRIST's NAME - 'as though God did beseech [them] by us' - to those who have not yet believed in Christ Jesus. When He returns, He will not take up His cry of 'Repent, the kingdom of heaven is at hand.' That's out job, NOW.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.

John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:... 7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: 8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see [him] not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: 9 Receiving the end of your faith, [even] the salvation of [your] souls.

I hope the above verses answer more of your question. I believe the words of Jesus Christ are totally dependable, and sometimes a lot of wrestling is needed, to scratch the surface of how truth in scripture fits together.

Well, this may be more than you've asked for staff, regarding Noah's day. It's more than I was looking for just now on Tim Warner's site as well. Phew!

It caught my eye and I downloaded the pdf but haven't read it in full yet... just grazed it quickly and had to stop, because I saw a point that others have brought up in the past and within these last three months, I've read enough science papers stating that we've already had a noticable "polar shift" - though others are denying it.
I'm a sky watcher, big time and always have since I was a kid and was a weather person in the military - so I don't miss much I guess when it comes to what's going on up there, with the moon and the sun's location each year and the weather patterns and 'clouds', etc.

Anyhow - I thought of you & AtG with your Noah question and thought I'd post this thing here.
Very interesting, from what little I grazed off of it. Sorry to post it before I've fully read it - but I've got a lot going on here.
(Just hold on to your hat:)

Here's the intro and link -

"The Second Coming Early Warning System. Understanding Noah's flood is key to understanding the signs Jesus gave of His second coming. This article includes a new translation of an important passage from the Septuagint which indicates the cause of the flood was the tilting of the earth's axis. And this will also be the cause of the signs Jesus gave of His second coming."

http://www.oasischristianchurch.org/air/early_warning.pdf

Hi Jesus-is-GOD,

Thanks for the link.

I look forward to reading the article, as I've heard (a long time ago) that it's thought the earth's axis shifted BECAUSE of the breaking up of the deeps of the earth (rather than the shift causing the flood), and, I've noticed at least two items reported by the BBC over recent weeks, one of which suggests there has been a two day shift in the earth's axis.

The Lord returns once for us to be "gathered to Him"....and to destroy the Lawless one, the man of sin, and his armies.

Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.

3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

.....verse 8.....And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming.

The lawless one is revealed in the beginning of the tribulation, and demands worship along the way. At the end of the tribulation, Jesus returns, with every eye beholding Him......[Time is stopped..]

In this we rejoice. As I see it, the Pre-tribulation idea is fantasy, and constantly twists scriptures like this. As others have said, though, our goal is to be there, dressed in holiness. That is really all that matters....

We do not fellowship around doctrine, or end-time ideas though, and I am not offended in the least that someone doesn't see it my way. My exhortation, though, is a biblical one. "Be Ready!" We all need to return to our first love, to attain a pure devotion to the Living Lord Jesus. Me first.

that it's thought the earth's axis shifted

Psalms 104:1 Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty.

Psalms 104:2 Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain:

Psalms 104:3 Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:

Psalms 104:5 He set the earth on its foundations, so that it should NEVER be moved.

Psalms 104:6 Thou coveredst it with the deep as with a garment: the waters stood above the mountains.

We do not fellowship around doctrine, or end-time ideas though, and I am not offended in the least that someone doesn't see it my way

Hi Jesus-is-GOD,

When you've had time to read the whole article, I'm hoping to hear what you make of the introduction of the word 'restore' near the end, with 2 Peter 3 in brackets, but at (complete) variance with what Peter said. I mean, I don't think we can overlook the confidence with which he predicted the earth with melt with 'fervent heat'.

It is an interesting article, but one thing it doesn't mention is the general and steady expansion of the universe, which probably needs to be factored in with the maths on the postulated tortion on earth's crust.

Hi Phillip,

I don't think we can ignore the context of John 5:28. The preceding two verses state that now the Jews REALLY want to kill Jesus.

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth [them]; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all [men] should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

Romans 2:2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.

3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) 16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Hi Approved. Scripture Never contradicts Scripture, as you know. If you had read the whole of the pdf you would have read these verses as well ...

Isa 24:19 The earthH776 is utterly broken down,H7489 H7489 the earthH776 is clean dissolved,H6565 H6565 the earthH776 is moved exceedingly.H4131 H4131
Isa 24:20 The earthH776 shall reel to and froH5128 H5128 like a drunkard,H7910 and shall be removedH5110 like a cottage;H4412 and the transgressionH6588 thereof shall be heavyH3513 uponH5921 it; and it shall fall,H5307 and notH3808 riseH6965 again.H3254

Do they contradict Ps 104:1-6 as you posted - No, not at all.

The earth will remain in the same orbit (Never be moved) only the tilting will occur and has already - as I too have read many reports since and much more than I could post here from earth-changes, climate change and time/calendar change perposals on the desk of the UN, etc..

I sense fear - and that should not be. Even the article gives the "No Fear" message.

Oh, and btw all - at 1:30 am this morning - Thank GOD for the Holy Spirit to give me that slap on the back of the head - I heard the message posted on ginny's jeremiah thread - I just needed to quit clicking on that link and "right click -save target" the thing. Phew! Took almost two days for that to come to me. Old age? :)

Hi Approved. Scripture Never contradicts Scripture, as you know. If you had read the whole of the pdf you would have read these verses as well ...

I was only commenting on what AtG said, I haven't read the pdf....yet.

I love His Body ~ Amen!

Hi all,

There are a couple of things in the article which Jesus-is-God posted, which I'd like to query. This is a reflection, possibly, of how slowly I grasp new information, or, I am just checking the facts with any of you who know enough science to confirm or reject them.

With no inclination of the earth’s axis, there would be no such thing as a “solar year”

Note, I am not disputing that there may have been portentous changes in the earth's axis before the flood, or, that after the flood had subsided, the seasons as we know them had begun.

The apocryphal Book of Enoch, written about the time of the Babylonian captivity, also repeats a Jewish tradition about the earth tilting at the time of the flood.

“In those days Noah saw that the earth became inclined, and that destructionapproached.”4

What would it take to shorten the number of days in a lunar month that involves a physical change to the earth only? The only possibility is to slow the earth’s rotation.
Since the moon’s revolutions are constant, a slowing of the earth’s rotation would make each day slightly longer. There would be slightly fewer days in a single lunar cycle.
Therefore, for this theory to work, the effect of tilting the earth’s axis must also slow its rotation.

And what about how the mass of earth was changed by the water which rained down in such quantity as to be 15 cubits above the highest mountains?

Lastly, IS the very centre of the earth solid iron? (I thought it's molten all through.)

We talk about the Earth tilting on it's axis. Well, this is no brainer, it does that now, that is how we get our winters to the North and we are hurrying to build our Igloos and an extension cord to the nearest power line.

Now, I don't believe for a moment that any of this scientific stuff on this tilting is true. Why? Because Brother Wilkerson said in his book the vision which I might add is a prophetic book that is coming to pass before our very eyes. It's accuracy is right on. One of the things in there is that scientist will be at a loss as to what is going on. They will speculate, guess, assume and come to some conclusion as to what is taking place, but I believe the prophet, THEY DON'T KNOW.

Good evening, Approved,

THEY DON'T KNOW

However, that doesn't make the hypothesis either irrelevant or impossible.

Oh now AtG, you disappoint me. :) I thought you all were the 'super sleuths' when it comes to Research.

Firstly - what do the Scriptures say? Dan 7:25, etc.

Typing in "earth axis tilting" there are loads of hits - here's one - http://divulgence.net/solar_angle_variables.htm
Quote from Site - "Credits:
Most of the images, Data and information on this website are courtesy & credited to NASA, Goddard Space Center, SOHO, NOAA, NWS, USGS, Smithsonian Institute, Plymouth State College, US Government, public domain information and your American Tax dollars which paid for & funded the research, info, and images developed by most of these entities."
Their source links - http://divulgence.net/verifiication%20links.htm

I just chose this first one after wikipedia of a Search just now.

On your bbc, they interviewed our top astronomers and the three were asked "Why are we in space?" and all three answered the same - "To find another habitable planet". That was in 2009.

I just copied this off of an educational site:

"The Earth's seasons are not caused by the differences in the distance from the Sun throughout the year (these differences are extremely small). The seasons are the result of the tilt of the Earth's axis.
The Earth's axis is tilted from perpendicular to the plane of the ecliptic by 23.45°. This tilting is what gives us the four seasons of the year - spring, summer, autumn (fall) and winter. Since the axis is tilted, different parts of the globe are oriented towards the Sun at different times of the year.

Summer is warmer than winter (in each hemisphere) because the Sun's rays hit the Earth at a more direct angle during summer than during winter and also because the days are much longer than the nights during the summer. During the winter, the Sun's rays hit the Earth at an extreme angle, and the days are very short. These effects are due to the tilt of the Earth's axis."

Another -
http://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/earth-20100301.html

- as others have - some put the cart before the horse and say that also climate change has or could change the earth's axis.

AtG - could you find the story from the bbc?

It's just fun researching. Makes me tired for bedtime :o)

Well, here's the scoop. I've got the goods on this whole thing. Now I'm tired enough for bedtime. :)

Actually, I've got a gob of sites - but this first one should be enough for posting.

Here we are -

"Scientists agree that Earth has long been subjected to traumatic magentic reversals of the poles, and that we're due for another -- but when?"

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/series/naked-science/3838/Videos?#tab-Videos/05823_00

Someone said: "I've been watching the magnetosphere simulation and sometimes it looks pretty calm and sometimes it looks like a tangled twisted ball."

Anyone want to sit and watch this for a few years?

http://www2.nict.go.jp/y/y223/simulation/realtime/index.html

Night all :)

GOD Bless!!!

Hi Jesus-is-GOD,

Oh now AtG, you disappoint me. :)

I am not in dispute about the tilt of the earth's axis, or that another reversal of the earth's magnetosphere is overdue. I know too, that the pole star changes from time to time, so even the earth's wobble, wobbles!

But it must be a total hypothesis that all those things could happen without the moon responding in any way at all! That's my main complaint. Why? Because we know the moon affects our ocean tides, and that must mean that itself can be affected by changes in the earth's pull on it.

AtG - could you find the story from the bbc?

Well, here's the scoop. I've got the goods on this whole thing.

hi, reading all this has turned into a tribulation that is not that great. smilie...jimp

'this generation'?

The author of the article to which Jesus-is-GOD directed us (p19), at http://www.oasischristianchurch.org/air/early_warning.pdf

finishes with a new thought about what Jesus meant by 'this generation' (last paragraph). I'll give the preceding three paragraphs for lead in.

'The observable phenomenon in the heavens will be that the sun, moon, planets, and stars will no longer follow their prescribed paths across the sky. The earthquakes and seas roaring will result from the erratic stresses on the earth from the wobble of its axis. Famines and pestilence will be the result of the regular seasons becoming chaotic. Yet, God’s people have no cause for alarm. He has promised to restore all things for the sake of Jesus’ elect, (Isaiah 65-66, Acts 3:19-21, Rom. 8:18-25). While the world is in panic, we will rejoice, because these are the signals that our redemption, and the Kingdom of Christ, is drawing near. Everything will be restored.

A Second Coming Early Warning System

There is one thing very clear from the passages we have discussed above. The earth’s future chaotic wobble, that will create all of the observable signs mentioned by Jesus, is the result of something that occurred a very long time ago, back in the days of Noah.

Jesus intended to give His faithful followers an early warning system in Luke 21. And He said to “look up,” not when all the events are taking place, but when they “begin totake place.” That is, at the first sign. We are not to “look up” to see His coming, because 9 that will not be until after all the signs have taken place. Rather, we are to observe the heavens, and the apparent movement of the heavenly bodies, all of which are related to the earth’s axial tilt. Things will begin slowly, with a slight shifting of the earth’s inclination. Then, the effects will begin to accelerate, until all of the things Jesus mentioned will occur, and people will be in a panic.

It is no coincidence that Jesus’ used the parable of the changing of the seasons to illustrate His point, since this is a direct result of the earth’s inclination. But, the changing of seasons is very gradual at first, and hardly noticeable. His parable indicates that we should look for the very first telltale signs that the “season” of His coming is approaching. And that sign will be a slight change in the earth’s tilt. Notice also that Jesus gave us the length of time in which all of these things will occur, one generation. That is, the generation that sees the beginning of these things will see the completion ofthem as well.'

Those sentences also cover the cause of my earlier question about the 'restor'ation of the earth's stability, rather than its destruction as implied by Peter and John. I should say I have no problem with the restoration of the earth's stability if this is what Jesus meant, but the words of the apostles ought to agree.

Also, the use of the word 'this', in English, usually refers to the here-and-now, rather than the there-and-then (which, as the object, ought to be THAT or THOSE).

However, being as Christ Jesus is the I AM, continuously in the 'now' ('Before Abraham was, I am.) I am drawn back to Matthew's statement at the beginning of his gospel:

Matthew 1:1
The book of THE GENERATION OF JESUS CHRIST, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the ETERNAL SPIRIT offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Hebrews 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the EVERLASTING COVENANT, 21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom [be] glory for ever and ever. Amen.

2 Peter 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make [you that ye shall] neither [be] barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into THE EVERLASTING KINGDOM of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to THE HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE.

Musing on the article, I wonder whether Christians today are tempted to lean too far towards accommodating doubters by looking for scientifically acceptable explanations for what is, properly, God in action, which mere mortals can only observe?

God has an agenda - the New Covenant being the present challenge to mankind's arrogance - to which we humbly submit with reverence and joy, or, find ourselves excluded from whatever God chooses to do next.

'The observable phenomenon in the heavens will be that the sun, moon, planets, and stars will no longer follow their prescribed paths across the sky. The earthquakes and seas roaring will result from the erratic stresses on the earth from the wobble of its axis.

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Funny how that last portion was even mentioned, in fact it's absolutely unnecessary.

"And there was no more sea"

The Sea is included with the Earth and the Earth is included with the Heaven, to mention the sea is like mentioning the trees, or the mountains, but why the Sea? Unless the writer is referring to something other than what our natural minds have concluded.

Bless GOD for any "early warning system". Every morning when I wake up, The LORD is faithful to tell me what to be prepared for. He 'is' That good. Very Good.

These verses are basically the center of attention -

Isa 24:18 And it shall come to pass, that he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake.
Isa 24:19 The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.
Isa 24:20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed[shaken,move] like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.
Isa 24:21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
Isa 24:22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.
Isa 24:23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

The LORD returns to the Mt. of Olives, so the earth itself is not destroyed but is restored to order. The New Heaven and earth come after the millenial reign.

(I'm sorry that you didn't understand my yankee talk. Here, when one says either "I'm surprised at you" or things 'like' it - it's said in a very exaggerated tone that allows the person to know that you are playing with the person.)

I haven't much else to say on this thread. Tim Warner's reputation stands on it's own. Eli Brayley maybe could probably testify to Tim's work. This hypothesis was merely 'a thought' and one I found interesting, neverthelesss and found that Tim's motive was not sensationalism. You'd have to know his years of work.

The hypothesis will remain just that - it doesn't change or 'shake' what is written that will come upon the earth - as Jesus and His men, brought up both sun and 'moon' in enough verses.
If this thread was intended for post-trib believers to participate on - then all the signs of the time are included in that (as in the days of Noah) - such as what happens to the sun, moon, earth, stars and I, as others, it appears, see a corralation between what is happening within the last few years and it's causes and what may cause these things in the future. I found it helpful to see just how many 'causes' there are - as mentioned already.
The other 'gob' - [a word I learned from you] - of links that I found give many listed "causes" for the tilting of the axis of the earth, besides what that video claims in my last post --- which to me makes the "cause" suspect.

I know that Tim's hypothesis was not to "accommodate doubters by looking for scientifically acceptable explanations" but to forearm 'the Saints', because of the type of shepherd's heart that he has.

Roger wilco - over and out from sunny NY.

Signing back on ~

SINCE this thread was directed at post-tribbers, I thought I'd post Tim Warner's most excellent website, in the event that it may open the discussion more for those who are of that persuasion.

http://www.answersinrevelation.org/

Some may not see the seals, trumps & vials 'over-lapping' - as I don't, yet - but this is one of the more acedemic post-trib sites out there, in some of our opinions.

Shalom!

Hi staff,

I think there is, as I've said, a major difference between tribulation and wrath.

The problem with the pre-trib view seems to be rooted in that confusion.

If you separate tribulation and wrath, and accept that AS JESUS SAID 'IN THE WORLD YOU WILL HAVE TRIBULATION', then the reason chose Noah and Lot are because both of them demonstrated God's power to remove His people to a place of safety before He destroys the ungodly.

However, He has (as I showed in an earlier post) also both destroyed individuals from amongst the rest of those present, and brought people to life - in both the Old and the New Testament. We are not in doubt about God's power.

Therefore, if God is going to take His people to Himself at His next coming, thus saving Him from the wrath which will be meted out upon the ungodly at that time, what is the POINT of a 'pre-trib' rapture?

This generation of (pre-trib-believing) Christians would be the ONLY GENERATION to have tried, embarrassingly, to escape the normal hostility of the world to Truth, and to the name of Christ who suffered death FOR US.

Regarding the Passover and the Red Sea, they - at the time Christ was speaking - had not yet been fulfilled in His life, so He could hardly draw upon them as an example of how God's people are to escape God's ultimate wrath.

1 Corinthians 5:7 '... For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:.. '

Further, if we really ARE crucified with Christ in our HEARTS, we KNOW we won't receive the reward of our identificaton with His suffering until we also are resurrected from the grave. Death is an inevitable step en route to glorification with Him.

Hi staff,

What is the point of a rapture after gods wrath which destroys everyone?or maybe that is just a coincidence......mmmmm.

God's wrath is going to destroy the ungodly, not 'everyone'.

The discussion about 'post-trib', is the trib part.

What is against Christians going THROUGH the 'great tribulation' and then being taken up by the Lord?

The wrath doesn't come first, but last.

'mmmmm'?

Hi passerby,

I am no expert, but I don't see the connection between some of your statements and the verses you quoted.

There are no christians left to rapture at the end of the trib period.They are all beheaded by antichrist... All the saints will be in heaven by the end of the trib period.

Also, a great many Christians have been beheaded in previous seasons of persecution worldwide, and I'm not sure how we can be sure that there is a more severe tribulation still to come, or, that all the Christians will die before the Lord comes. Remember, God had reserved to Himself 7000 in Elijah's day, although Elijah imagined he was the last true worshipper.

The verses below: are you suggesting these verses describe 'the great tribulation'?

'Rev 13;7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.'

I know of no other place where the devil is given power over God's people

Luke 4:5 And the devil, taking him [Jesus] up into an high mountain, shewed unto him ALL THE KINGDOMS OF THE WORLD in a moment of time. 6 And the devil said unto him, All THIS POWER will I give thee, and the glory of them: FOR THAT IS DELIVERED UNTO ME: AND TO WHOMESOEVER I WILL GIVE IT. 7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, ALL shall be thine.

(Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou [art] cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: 15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.)

1 Timothy 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

The overcomers are raptured at the beginning,and the "left behind" ones are martyered by antichrist.

1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith. 5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth [it].

Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and [I will write upon him] my new name.

Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Jesus will descend from Heaven with a shout....and the sound of a Trumpet....and those who are ALIVE and REMAIN....

There is no such thing as multiple comings of Christ.

"There are no Christians left to rapture at the end of the trib period.They are all beheaded by antichrist... All the saints will be in heaven by the end of the trib period."

THIS IS CLEARLY WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are ALIVE AND REMAIN until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the TRUMPET of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

17 THEN.. we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words. 1Thessalonians, 4
WHEN IT HAPPENS

Immediately.. AFTER.. the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

30 THEN the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and THEN all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the ......Son of Man coming...... on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And He [THEN] will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet,...

and..........[THEN].... they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.....MATTHEW 24

Wow!

Hi Lisa, thanks. I'm encouraged. :)

(see p22)

Hi Alive,
I am going to re phrase my question.

Firstly Christians have no right not to go through the great tribulation but that doesnt mean they will.
I agree Gods wrath will destroy the ungodly not everyone.
Gods wrath doesnt come first but last.

My question is where do you fit in the Noah and Lot examples exactly in your time line and what exactly do these represent to you?

I thank you for the clarifications you have, at last, stated.

I would like to begin at the end, with the wrath, which God poured out on the ungodly, after He had removed Noah and Lot to places of relative safety. I take these primarily as historical examples, which New Testament writers quote in the context of God's unchanging character and values. That's where they are in my 'timeline'.

They are both examples of God's power. 1) to destroy the whole world, or 2) to destroy a selected area. We also know He can kill individuals right where they are.

The removals of Noah and Lot may foreshadow what Paul describes in 1 Thess 4:14 - 17.

Tyndale's New Testament closes Luke 17 this way:

'After these ensamples, shall the day be, when the son of man shall appear. At that day he that is on the house top, and his stuff in the house: let him not come down to take it out. And likewise let not him that is in the fields, turn back again to that he left behind. Remember Lot's wife. Whosoever will go about to save his life, shall lose it: And whosoever shall lose his life, shall quicken it.

¶ I tell you: In that night, there shall be two in one bed, the one shall be received, and the other shall be forsaken. Two shall be also a grinding together: the one shall be received, and the other forsaken. (in italics and brackets: Two in the field, the one shall be received, and the other forsaken.) And they answered, and said to him: where Lord? And he said unto them: wheresoever The body shall be, thither will the eagles resort.'

According to Strong's 'the body' could be alive or dead. And, 'eagles' don't eat carrion. He also points out that an Eagle was the Roman Military standard.

As the Roman Empire had taken over the land just before Jesus' birth, this may be a reference to the pantheistic spiritual values of the Roman Empire.

Daniel 2:35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

Daniel 2:41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. 42 And [as] the toes of the feet [were] part of iron, and part of clay, [so] the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken

Daniel 2:45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream [is] certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

From wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquila_(Roman)

'... Under the later emperors the eagle was carried, as it had been for many centuries, with the legion, a legion being on that account sometimes called aquila (Hirt. Bell. Hisp. 30). Each cohort had for its own ensign the serpent or dragon, which was woven on a square piece of cloth textilis anguis,[2] elevated on a gilt staff, to which a cross-bar was adapted for the purpose,[3] and carried by the draconarius.[4]...

When Constantine embraced Christianity, a figure or emblem of Christ, woven in gold upon purple cloth, was substituted for the head of the emperor. This richly ornamented standard was called labarum.[12] The labarum is still used today by the Orthodox Church in the Sunday service. The entry procession of the chalice whose contents will soon become holy communion is a modeled after the procession of the standards of the Roman army.

Even after the adoption of Christianity as the Roman Empire's religion, the Aquila eagle continued to be used as a symbol. During the reign of Eastern Roman Emperor Isaac I Komnenos, the single-headed eagle was modified to double-headed to symbolise the Empire's dominance over East and West.'

"Hi Brothertom,[ from staff]
Let me ask you the same question.
Where does the Noah and Lot examples fit in your time line and what do those examples represent to you?

Noah and the 7 of his extended family were gathered together, and then God poured out wrath upon the World, and Lot was gathered, and God poured out his wrath on the four cities, including Sodom.

"Who is being gathered from the verse below and why are they being gathered from one end of heaven to the other,why is it not one end of earth?" [from staff].

Who does it seem is being gathered to Him according to the word?

For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. [they are not "rising" from heaven...it seems it IS from the Earth...]

17 AFTER THAT, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

[so, AFTER THAT, the Lord Himself descending from Heaven, the dead in Christ gathered....[RISING].., THEN we are caught up, and RAPTURED. [from the Latin]...forever.]

I am anticipating how you will complicate this.

Brothertom,

Matthew 24:31
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Is not this gathering of spirits a necessary part of physical resurrection from the graves on earth? (Enoch, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David, Elijah, NT saints?)

"Is not this gathering of spirits a necessary part of physical resurrection from the graves on earth? (Enoch, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David, Elijah, NT saints?)
.........Alive -to-God to Brothertom..

No. It is evident that Elijah was never buried on the Earth, and that Moses and Elijah[never died] were Already resurrected...and that Enoch too was translated before death.[Enough to have a conversation with Jesus witnessed by the apostles.]...[Elijah and Moses..]

[The way you worded this questioned seemed somewhat of a rhetorical trap, to me...]

Some, it seems , are with the Lord, and some, the dead in Christ, will resurrect at His coming.
Remember the resurrection that occurred at Jesus's Crucifixion?....

.......!!"and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life!"

They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people. "
Matthew 27.

As it is written, these aren't the only ones who will be resurrected. God being God, may hold these mysteries close to his chest, so to speak.

There is no doubt there are many who have been resurrected....and the thing about "Abraham's Bosom", and Lazarus. There is a keeping place, where Abraham, and "all the Patriarchs" dwell"....
[did you think I wouldn't catch that?]

This in no way nullifies the "DEAD IN CHRIST" rising, at the last Trump, when Jesus returns, according to his Promise....in Matthew 24, as you quoted...

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30. "And THEN shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31And [THEN] he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Matthew 24.
and.!!!.....ALSO......THIS CLEAR SCENARIO...

"According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will CERTAINLY NOT! precede those who have fallen asleep.

16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST"

17 AFTER THAT, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever."

It's not that complicated, though there are mysteries...Tom

Brothertom,

I did mean to be rhetorical, but neither contentious nor offensive.

I do remember about the resurrections in Jerusalem, and wonder whether their bodies were like Lazarus', or Jesus'. One has the impression they disappeared again, rather like Jesus did, and perhaps they are now asleep in Christ, rather than being in the bosom of Abraham.

I do remember 'the bosom of Abraham' but now realise I have assumed Abraham is in God's presence (though his bones be still in the cave).

There are great distinctions in the Old Testament. For instance, Elijah was taken up to be with the Lord, but Elisha, who had received the double portion of the spirit upon Elijah, died, and was buried.

Jesus refers to Abraham rejoicing to see His day, and refers to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as 'living'.

LUke 20:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: 35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. 37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. 38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.'

While I'm writing, the thought comes that perhaps those would not (at the time Jesus was speaking) become 'living' until the future. But that doesn't seem to be what He means by taking them back to Moses as His reference.

The Mount of Transfiguration also, does not divide the Old Testament saints. One had been taken up. The other had died. Yet both appear with Christ in similar form.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

I take this to mean that at natural death there is a separation between body and soul/spirit).

Deuteronomy 34:5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. 6 And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.

Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

At the time Jesus was speaking, there was no-one in heaven whose robes had been washed in the blood of the Lamb, but I would include these future saints in Matt 24:31.

Or, does Matt 24:31 apply ONLY to New Testament saints?

Have the Old Testament saints already put on immortality and incorruption?

Hi staff,

What you are saying is that you think that Noah lot examples are the resurrection or as some call(not you) the rapture.
You think this will happen prior to gods wrath obviously.

I should point out to anyone reading that your view wouldnt be a regular post trib view

Jesus didnt take this primarlarly as historical examples but was trying to say what exactly was going to happen in the future.

You said to Brothertom

The reason I ask for this is that I dont think the post trib view can fit Noah Lot into a time line.

Alive to God: Thank you for you kind and metered response.

"At the time Jesus was speaking, there was no-one in heaven whose robes had been washed in the blood of the Lamb, but I would include these future saints in Matt 24:31."

Remember, that the Lamb, Jesus of Nazareth, was "slain BEFORE the foundation of the EARTH.

"All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." Rev: 13

So as you noted, ALL live before Him...which implies the truth of the parable of Lazarus....There is a place of life for the Christian dead, but it is not Heaven, or the fullness of heaven.

It seems to me, that this fullness will only be given corporately at THE MARRIAGE SUPPER OF THE LAMB. Then, the entire body...from Adam on through the 2 witnesses, will become one, and enter in TOGETHER.

This must, as I see it, happen upon the return of Christ, when a number of events happen...[BIG EARTHQUAKE]

1.] Times stops,He returns, and every eye beholds Him.
2.] The Dead in Christ from all ages....rise to Him.
3.] The living saints are gathered to be with them.
4.] Wrath comes upon the anti-Christ and his armies. He and his spirit master is thrown alive into the LAKE OF FIRE.
5.]The Millennial Reign begins, with the Saints chosen participating, for 1000 years
6.] The second rebellion, when New Jerusalem is attacked. Jesus wins, Satan and all evil and all sorrow and memory of sin are cast away to burn in the other Universe....THE LAKE OF FIRE..
7.] New Heaven and New Earth, [this one , and all the stars and everything here, is dissolved.
8.]New Jerusalem endures forever and ever. THE PEARL OF GREAT PRICE....[JESUS!]

[I'm sure I forgot something]....

Anyway.....TY for your input....BT

If you take the viewpoint as some have of the Noah and Lot examples as God protecting his people through his Judgement or Wrath I think their is a problem with the verse below.

Mark 13.20 KJV
And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved : but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen , he hath shortened the days.

The verse you quote is about the tribulation. Therefore, let me move to near the end of your post.

2.The tribulation would have to have virtually no effect on the non believer but only on the believer as I have said before conditions are pretty good in Jesus's examples.

Wrath, on the other hand, is about non-Christians receiving the reward of their unbelief. Having said that, there is more than one word for wrath, and God shown wrath to both Israel when they were disobeying Him, and upon those who troubled Israel.

Mark 13.20 KJV
And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved : but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen , he hath shortened the days.

1.The problem is this why would God shorten the days for the elect if they are being protected(they would be safe and well)

Let me tell you, God knows the breaking point of each person. He can squeeze us till it really hurts, but He won't break us accidentally. He does, though, break those who are set against Him, whose hearts He sees and judges perfectly. If He has set His heart to preserve us, He will preserve us.

2.Also but only secondary,
Why would God choose to protect his people here on Earth through his wrath when afterwards he is going to rapture and ressurect.

The poeple in Noah and Lots days didnt get witnessed or preached to again after Judgement.These Christians who were being protected wouldnt have a function or purpose as I see it at that stage.

then Jesus would have to come again after the wrath would he not something pre tribbers hold to and post tribbers say is not correct.

3.Also but only secondary you would have to show when the wrath of God begins.

Yours hopefully to be raptured at some stage

Hi staff,

I still think you're confused about my view, because you have not laid down your own, in order to study my posts with a clear mind. In saying this, I'm not claiming to speak for anyone else. This seems to be mainly a conversation between you and I about how we see the same scriptures.

Someway down your post I noticed you brought in the 3.5 and 7 years again. Again I say, they don't have ANYTHING to do with my understanding. I've been looking for them (I know about the three and a half years, the forty-two months and the twelve hundred and sixty days.) in a global context across scripture, and I'm still looking. Maybe I will find them, but so far I haven't. So, they are not in my post-trib view. You may find it helpful to remember that.

Regarding Noah and Lot and tribulation, again I think you're not 'seeing' any clear definition of 'tribulation' which is not somehow tangled up with wrath. Please re-read your post and every time you come across either word, THINK, Is that what I meant? Because frequently you introduce an element of the other whenever you mention one of them. Some posts ago, I thought you had it figured, but now I don't know.

Mark 13.20 KJV
Mark 13.20 KJV
And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved : but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen , he hath shortened the days.

protecting Gods people through a time of Gods Judgement ... if they are being protected(they would be safe and well

9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end [is] not by and by. 10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: 11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.

12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute [you], delivering [you] up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. 13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony. 14 Settle [it] therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer: 15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. 16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and [some] of you shall they cause to be put to death. 17 And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name's sake. 18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.

19 In your patience possess ye your souls. 20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Do you see v 16 and v 17. Now, obviously, they mean the same thing. But, they don't necessarily mean 'safe and protected' - except spiritually.

So, the shortening of TRIBULATION for the sake of the elect, is so that not all of them DIE in the tribulation - as well as so that some people may come to know Christ through their testimony.

Revelation 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

This is about saints passing through tribulation. It has nothing to do with God's wrath.

Regaring antiChrist: 1 John 2:18
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even NOW ARE THERE MANY ANTICHRISTS; whereby we know that it is the last time.

at the end of the tribulation God pours out his Wrath or Judgement and then the rapture or resurection happens and then the millenium

Perhaps too, too many Christians entertain jokes about the pearly gates and clever words being exchanged between Peter and the latest arrival. THAT is pure fiction.

If you reread your post again (yes, again), you will notice you have it in your mind that the wrath is going to be poured out from heaven (like in Noah and Lot's days, and individuals who died suddenly like Uzzah - 2 Sam 6:7), but what scripture is there to support that with reference to the FINAL wrath of God upon unbelievers? (Rev 19) Alternatively, perhaps He just speaks, and they die.

Matthew 21:41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out [his] vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. 42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. 44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

Luke 19:12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return... 26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him. 27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay [them] before me.

Wrath is instigated by God and Carried out by his Angels

I know this reply is all out of sequence, but I thought the following was a good answer!

I do think that you side stepped this point... If The time lasted 5 years instead of One,God would have built an Ark Five times the size and God would have allowed Noah 500 years to build it!My point being that God as you know well would have protected gods people no matter how long the Judgement.Gods people would be protected no matter what the Judgement was and protected correctly because God would have planned for it through his fore knowledge.

Sorry; this reply does not satisfy your request for a timeline. I don't have all my ducks in a row like some post-tribbers. I think that would make me nervous! I like to leave the unknowns safely in God's hands.

Blessings.

It is clear that there is a time of Wrath...the most severe imaginable, AFTER the second coming of Christ.
It is not exactly apparent to me, how long this period of Wrath lasts...but maybe a while.

Long enough though, for the inhabitants of Earth to want to hide...."From the face of the Lamb!"...and desire the rocks to fall upon them...in effect...commit suicide rather than face His "terrible swift sword..".

Keep in mind that the Saints are already gathered...and it appears that the armies of Heaven are following the Lord, as He reveals Himself. This is the culmination of the "Revelation of Jesus Christ.."...[with the Millenium to follow and the White Throne Judgments...]

The Tribulation period is a time of testing...."The trial that encompasses the whole Earth..."...where "the man of sin is revealed"....and the mark is given. This is not wrath, but testing....the "trial.."....

Food for thought...BT

So, the shortening of TRIBULATION for the sake of the elect, is so that not all of them DIE in the tribulation - as well as so that some people may come to know Christ through their testimony.

Looking at the full scripture below,do you see the tribulation as world wide and who is being referred to in -there should be no flesh be saved-Is that the world inhabitants including the elect?

Please look at how the Pharisees are using the word "world" as if it was the whole world at that time, but it was locally.

John 12:19 The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him.

The "world is gone after Him" and yet, Jesus was localized in the province of Palestine within the Roman Empire. So the whole world would not have gone after Him, but they were referring to their world, their city, their own people, not global.

Look at how the word "world" is being used. If they are using it like that, should we not also take into consideration on how other passages are using the same thing?

I've been reading (a little) round the matter of Herod the Great's relationship with the Roman Empire, and it seems it was Rome's authority which gave him the title 'King of the Jews'. He was an Edomite AND a Jew. Not sure how that's possible, but perhaps there's an explanation. Anyway, it shows the conflicts which existed.

It also makes more sense of Pharisees eventually saying 'We have no king but Caesar' - at least those who rejected Christ Jesus.

It is true that Jesus came to the 'lost sheep of the house of Israel', but He did go to Samaria, and people from Greek cities round about also followed Him.

The "world is gone after Him" and yet, Jesus was localized in the province of Palestine within the Roman Empire. So the whole world would not have gone after Him, but they were referring to their world, their city, their own people, not global.

Colossians 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; 6 Which is come unto you, AS IT IS IN ALL THE WORLD; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

Theologically he included the whole world in his Roman thesis,
Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and ALL THE WORLD may become guilty before God.

And Luke included this,
Acts 11:28 And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout ALL THE WORLD: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar.

Acts 24:5 For we have found this man [Paul] a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes:

Romans 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

Romans 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

There are many more references to 'world' in the New Testament (in different contexts - not all relevant to this discussion), including this one:

Acts 17:5 But the Jews which believed not, moved with envy, took unto them certain lewd fellows of the baser sort, and gathered a company, and set all the city on an uproar, and assaulted the house of Jason, and sought to bring them out to the people. 6 And when they found them not, they drew Jason and certain brethren unto the rulers of the city, crying, THESE THAT HAVE TURNED THE WORLD UPSIDE DOWN are come hither also; 7 Whom Jason hath received: and these all do contrary to the decrees of Caesar, saying that there is another king, one Jesus.

There was, after Stephen, a persecution which scattered Christians (who preached to Jews only, as they travelled). Although Jesus was speaking to His disciples restricted to HIS local context, in light of the Great Commission, it's clear He didn't expect them to STAY local.

Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Acts 13:47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

Tribulation finds Christians wherever they are.

So the tribulation will be localized,and the elect will be who the church or Israel?

The "will be" though, is actually "was". When you read the parables it gets clearer.

Now it's "whomsoever will" and to both Jew and Gentile today it's, "Make your Calling and Election sure".

Rev 22:17
1Peter 1:10
Matt 16:28

It is true that Jesus came to the 'lost sheep of the house of Israel', but He did go to Samaria, and people from Greek cities round about also followed Him.

The "world is gone after Him" and yet, Jesus was localized in the province of Palestine within the Roman Empire. So the whole world would not have gone after Him, but they were referring to their world, their city, their own people, not global. However, there were synagogues a long way from that small locality, and once evangelism began, Paul claimed:

Jesus first mission was to come to the Jews and to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. That was His mission. There were those that were strangers in the land at the time, but His focus was on Israel, and from time to time there was a hiccup in His ministry where a Roman soldier said, "just speak the word", and a woman who was considered a dog said, "truth Lord but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from the Masters table". This was to prove that God is no respect of persons, where faith is, you'll find God ready to do of His good pleasure. But it was to this house that He must come first as a witness against them through signs and wonders to first convince them that He was Christ and secondly, that they are children that kill the prophets and that their end was near.

Hello Approved,

There is no, "however", your speaking AFTER the doors have swung open for not only the Jew but for the Gentile.

The first is that the synagogues outside the territory of Judea, Galilee, Decapolis and the other areas Jesus visited during His ministry, were already there before the Son of God came down. It was to these, in Acts, that Paul went FIRST, to preach to the JEWS who had not believed in Christ yet.

The second is, that once the world's superpower of the day, the Roman Empire, had taken over what remained of Israel to the two tribes and Ephraim, 'the world' was part of Israel, and God intended it this way. As Paul later said to King Agrippa and Festus:

22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come: 23 That Christ should suffer, [and] that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

26 For the king knoweth of these things, before whom also I speak freely: for I am persuaded that none of these things are hidden from him; FOR THIS THING WAS NOT DONE IN A CORNER. (Acts 26)

The very fact that the Pharisees had begun to consider themselves under the rule of Rome primarily, militates against your interpretation of 'world', even though they may have been using exaggeration for the sake of emphasis when they said 'the world has gone after Him'.

Paul uses negative understatement to the same end ('not done in a corner'). Also, we know that Jews from around the literal world came to Jerusalem for Passover whenever they could. Some would stay until Pentecost before leaving.

John 2:23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast [day], many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.

Acts 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

I FULLY take the point that Jesus came for the 'lost sheep of the house of Israel', and He restricted Himself to a small locality, in order to fulfil prophecy and leave the most devout Jews who nevertheless rejected Him without an excuse, but, He must have known there were Jews elsewhere all round the world, and they must have been included in His great Shepherd's heart.

We could even surmise that when the disciples heard the Great Commission, they still only had those 'lost sheep' in mind - until the Lord sent Peter to Cornelius (many months later), AFTER Paul had been brought into the fold.

Please accept, I am not trying to diminish the importance of understanding that Christ's mission was first of all to the twelve tribes of Israel. But, they were everywhere - not just in 'Israel'.

I FULLY take the point that Jesus came for the 'lost sheep of the house of Israel', and He restricted Himself to a small locality, in order to fulfil prophecy and leave the most devout Jews who nevertheless rejected Him without an excuse

But, they were everywhere - not just in 'Israel'.

Why?

Because those that were the Elect of God who have been bidden and were worthy to receive eternal life when they heard, some took heed and believed but the majority rejected the gospel.

Herein is Isaiah's prophecy come to pass, "who hath believed our report".

The witness was the power and demonstration coupled with the word of reconciliation that this same Christ that they preached in His name was alive in them doing those works that should have convinced not only the lookers but the hearers.

Jeremiah 13:11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.

Then who are these? How do they for two years come in unto whom Paul received? How did they come to Paul? Who are the some that agreed with Paul and some did not? Who will hear "it", from Paul.

The issue with the Elect was that they were all supposed to believe and be saved.

The "some" that believed was an insult to God and His sacrifice for all should have believed because the covenants were made with them. Even with Christ coming to confirm or strengthen the covenant. Out of the millions of Jews that were throughout the world at that time, only a handful really believed. It was through them that God wanted to move through. He was able to move through some mind you, but that was not what it was supposed to be. Therefore because of their failure to believe, the Gentiles were brought in. Not to replace the Jews, but to add unto.

Romans 9:4.....Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

The "these" that came to Paul would have been "some" Jews and many Gentiles.

Hi Psalm1,

Only a few days ago I was wondering where you've been! and here you are! Long time no see. :)

Those left behind will face antichist and be beheaded.

This is why the ones beheaded are in heaven during the trib period.

Or are you merely saying that (non-Christians), will be beheaded DURING the tribulation?

Like I said,no other place is satan given the power to murder the saints.

The biggest problem I have with the pre-trib thesis - of which I know only part - that is, the part that keeps being mentioned in this thread - is that it flies in the face of particular statements made by Jesus, (His apostles, AND historical facts from non-biblical sources, which inform us of saints being beheaded during the first century and since) - and, for instance, His telling the disciples they would, in the world 'have tribulation'.

John 8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. HE WAS A MURDERER FROM THE BEGINNING, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, AND TO KILL, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have [it] more abundantly.

Both the above sentences are in the present tense.

BTW,Paul delivered a man to satan not God
Satan did not kill Job
And yes the devil was all over those that murdered Jesus

John 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18 No man taketh it from me, but I LAY IT DOWN OF MYSELF. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

I have always associated the following verse with unnatural deaths - which many Christians have suffered at the hands of persecutors.

Psalm 116:15 Precious in the sight of the LORD [is] the death of his saints.

Do you really believe satan has been given the power now?

Until the cross he had power, and through Christ's victory we can have victory over him if we lay hold of it. I don't think this means that saints won't die for their faith. I hear nothing from pre-tribbers which anticipates the possibility of physically dying for Christ. It doesn't seem to be in the pre-trib doctrine, even though John was the only one of the twelve who died naturally.

So, to say he has NO power, would be difficult, because of the death and destruction man freely shares with his unregenerate fellows, and administers to Christians. For instance:

Luke 21:16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and [some] of you shall they cause to be put to death.

And,

Proverbs 6:17 7 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

(See any similarity to John 8:44, above?)

Isaiah 59:7 Their feet run to evil, and they make haste to shed innocent blood: their thoughts [are] thoughts of iniquity; wasting and destruction [are] in their paths.

(Romans 3: 10 - 18)

Please explain to me why we are interested in the 'left behind' ones being beheaded?

Sorry is this reply is a bit disjointed. I was confused by your main statement about antiChrist beheading the left behind ones. I thought you meant they too are Christians - but going through the tribulation.

Hi Phillip,

I have a lot of sympathy with your deep desire to receive one final total rapture into God's presence for ever. But, I don't understand how this latter-day generation of Christians can absolve themselves of the NEED to suffer for Christ, at least in a measure, as previous generations of believers have done: 3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. 4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. (Hebrews 12)

What will be the evidence against us as Christians, if we have tried to slip in and out of the sheepfold some 'other way'? (John 10)

JESUS said: 32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. 33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. Matthew 10

The following verses across the New Testament mention suffering for Christ's sake.

Acts 5:41 And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name.

Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together.

1 Cor 4:12 And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:

1 Cor 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].

Galatians 5:11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.

Philipp 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

1 Thess 3:4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

1 Timothy 4:10\t For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

2 Timothy 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

2 Timothy 2:9 Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, [even] unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.

2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Hebrews 11:25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;

1 Peter 3:14 But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy [are ye]: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;... 16 Yet if [any man suffer] as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

1 Peter 4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls [to him] in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

I see that being willing to go through tribulation for Christ as a basic part of following Him, and am dismayed at the lack of consensus over this, when we benefit so much (like having a Bible we can read freely) from those WHO SUFFERED. That is THEIR FRUIT. What will be chalked up to our account?

I see that being willing to go through tribulation for Christ as a basic part of following Him, and am dismayed at the lack of consensus over this, when we benefit so much (like having a Bible we can read freely) from those WHO SUFFERED. That is THEIR FRUIT. What will be chalked up to our account?

Amen!

From the very first disciples, unto this day - The blood of the martyrs is the seed of The Church.
What say we of those that are presently losing their lives and being 'tortured for Christ' as we speak?

In this nation, particularly, we find those who aren't willing to see or aren't willing to suffer, taking up our cross and that it may someday mean - giving our life for the Testimony of Christ. What a reproach, to preach Christ and not be willing to suffer all things for His Name.

Heb 11:36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
Heb 11:37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
Heb 11:38 (*Of whom the world was not worthy*:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

Those Saints seen in Rev 7, mentioned by Philip, are the fulfillment of what The LORD told those under the altar here -

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season,
**until their fellowservants also and their brethren,
that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.**

Which goes hand in hand with Rev 20:4-6.

There are only the or a 'remnant' left on earth AT His Return. when He resurrects the living and the dead. Those few that survive, that rise to meet these dead in "the air" and these dead in Rev chpts 6 & 7 above, will rise first and these shall rule and reign with Christ a thousand years.

Only those mentioned, who have not taken the mark, neither worshipped the beast nor his image are mentioned as those "ruling and reigning with Christ" for some reason.

To not be willing to be persecuted, killed or suffer for Christ - (the same as these in Rev 6 had and those who will be killed "in the same way" in Rev 7), are not worthy to preach Christ.
I'd much rather read the Voice of the Martyrs or Foxes Book of Martyrs or Martyrs Mirror, to hear their testimonies.

Amen and blessings to you Alive-to-GOD, for being able to remain gracious.

I also read either on this thread or another - can't remember exactly which he posted on that "we don't need to fast".

These were those who had seen His resurrection -

Act 13:3 "And when they had fasted and prayed...."

Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
Act 14:23 ..."prayed with fasting...."

And this is Paul (of all people) who fasted often -

2Co 6:5 - in fastings

2Co 11:27 - in fastings often

In case folks don't read the News at all - it would be a very good idea to "buffet our bodies" as Paul (of all people) said he did and not for selfish reasons but to be sure that we can handle the coming days when food (also) shall be a scarce commodity.

Out of concern,
your sister

To not be willing to be persecuted, killed or suffer for Christ - are not worthy to preach Christ.

No one is really willing, it is with great reluctance to avoid it, but we know that it can't be avoided.

Acts 8:1 And at that time there was a GREAT persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.

There was great purpose in this persecution, people got out of their comfort zone and went into other regions round about to share the goodnews. Persecution is good, but not everyone is willing to go through it, but instead we are pulled into it. We see that in Ten Boom's life. She wasn't looking for persecution, but she was pulled into it though, it couldn't be helped. However, though all left Jerusalem, the Apostles were willing to stay behind.

I suspect you knew that a question would be forth coming with your post.

You say - "Sorry but my food and drink are not my fast."

Are you saying that the fasting done in the book of Acts by the Apostles and the "fasting often" that Paul did, were not of 'food & drink' - and that you claim a different type, other than of food and drink?

I'm asking the obvious but I'd prefer direct clarification before I can feel that I'm already sure of what you're saying here.
Thanks.

Hi David,

Thanks for your reply.

but you are opposed to it

that God has a last trump, a final shout, and the church will be no more on this earth.

This will be the beginning of what Jesus called the "great tribulation"

for Israel

and the world.

Jesus-is-GOD, thank you for your posts and encouragement. :)

Psalm1, going on to Chpt 16, where the Vials of the wrath of GOD is poured out, we see that not "all" have taken the mark by chpt 15 ...

Rev 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
Rev 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men -
which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

There will be those who aren't even saved, but who will not take the mark and we know that by Rev 20:4-6, where He speaks of the First resurrection and that these will rule and reign with Him a thousand years over people who are not in 'glorified bodies'. There will be a thousand year reign of Christ [the rest of Rev 20] with His glorified resurrected Saints and they will rule and reign over these who did not take the mark nor worshipped the beast nor his image. They'll be living under His reign, during those thousand years, and then satan will be loosed again to try them. The sad part is that, even though they've lived on earth with Christ Himself and His resurrected Saints - they still will join with satan to wage war against GOD Himself.
Talk about deception. Unimaginable delusion. They saw Him Return in Revelation 19 in great glory, and with His Angels and saw Him raise the dead and living Saints and beat them in that first battle At His Coming and yet they try again after 1000 years of His Presence on earth - Unbelievable insanity - isn't it? wow.

Hi Psalm1,

I have been reading scripture round your questions all day. I did have an essay of a post, which I accidentally closed down - which saves you a lot of reading of it too! :)

However, I do want to ask this: when Jesus told His disciples in Luke 21:16 that some of them would be put to death, was that not part of GREAT tribulation to THAT generation?

Since then, many generations of Christians have found themselves unable or unwilling to resist their persecutors. For instance, we have the apostle Paul's testimony in Acts 26:

9 I verily thought with myself, that I ought to do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth. 10 Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; AND WHEN THEY WERE PUT TO DEATH, I gave my voice against [them]. 11 And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled [them] to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted [them] even unto strange cities. 12 Whereupon as I went to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests...'

In the context of Isa 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and THE DAY OF VENGEANCE OF OUR GOD; to comfort all that mourn, we read in Luke 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. 20 And he closed the book, and he gave [it] again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. 21 And he began to say unto them, THIS DAY IS THIS SCRIPTURE FULFILLED IN YOUR EARS.

Please read Luke 20:9 - 25 before this next.

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For THESE BE THE DAYS OF VENGEANCE THAT ALL THINGS WHICH ARE WRITTEN MAY BE FULFILLED. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, AND WRATH UPON THIS PEOPLE.

I put it to you that Jesus was prophesying the second part of the pronouncement He had made over Jerusalem in Luke 13:24 on, which ends: 31 The same day there came certain of the Pharisees, saying unto him, Get thee out, and depart hence: for Herod will kill thee. 32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third [day] I shall be perfected. 33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the [day] following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem. 34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen [doth gather] her brood under [her] wings, and ye would not! 35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until [the time] come when ye shall say, Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the Lord.'

As you said in your post, we have His authority. John 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace [be] unto you: as [my] Father hath sent me, even so send I you. Paul said: 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them. (Romans 1) I've quoted this because it's clear from John's gospel, that the religious authorities knew Jesus was their Messiah, but they utterly refused to believe INTO Him.

I don't doubt that those who have died during the last two millennia were seen by John on the 'sea of glass mingled with fire' (Rev 15:2), but can we say that is because 'more power' has been granted to Satan? Remember Stephen's death early in Acts? And James, the brother of John's? I ask you, did John RECOGNISE some of those he saw in the visions associated with the Revelation of Jesus Christ to him?

The only greater tribulations than to die for Christ, are to NOT die for Him - to be tormented by temptations, or prison, or torture, or lies, or betrayal - or, to face His wrath - having known the truth that He is real and true, alive and powerful - like the man who buried His talent.

If you wish to have an even more detailed discussion from scripture, we can do that. I've realised the content of this new dialogue, compared with staff's on Noah and Lot, is nevertheless another attempt to construct an entire doctrine on a minimum of verses, rather than on ALL the verses which should be considered. The following words by Reginal Heber bring a useful pre-1850 perspective to this 'post-trib' discussion.

The Son of God goes forth to war,
A kingly crown to gain;
His blood red banner streams afar:
Who follows in His train?
Who best can drink his cup of woe,
Triumphant over pain,
Who patient bears his cross below,
He follows in His train.

That martyr first, whose eagle eye
Could pierce beyond the grave;
Who saw his Master in the sky,
And called on Him to save.
Like Him, with pardon on His tongue,
In midst of mortal pain,
He prayed for them that did the wrong:
Who follows in His train?

A glorious band, the chosen few
On whom the Spirit came;
Twelve valiant saints, their hope they knew,
And mocked the cross and flame.
They met the tyrant’s brandished steel,
The lion’s gory mane;
They bowed their heads the death to feel:
Who follows in their train?

A noble army, men and boys,
The matron and the maid,
Around the Savior’s throne rejoice,
In robes of light arrayed.
They climbed the steep ascent of Heav’n,
Through peril, toil and pain;
O God, to us may grace be given,
To follow in their train.

http://www.smallchurchmusic.com/MP3/MP3-TheSonOfGod-AllSaintsNew-PipeLC-128-CAM.mp3

Hi Jesus is God,

There will be those who aren't even saved, but who will not take the mark

The 144k are the Jewish remnant that are sealed.The insects that sting with unbearable pain are commanded to NOT sting this Jewish remnant.

They are later beheaded(evidently) and are "raptured"/caught up to heaven,as they are found before the throne DURING THE TRIBULATION PERIOD.

I believe at this point during the trib. that all without the mark are dead.(just my opinion)

Hi Psalm1.

There will be human beings that He and His resurrected Saints will "rule and reign" over during the millenial reign.

I have knowledge of multiple thousands who know about "the mark and a coming one world leader" who say they will in no way 'take his mark' etc, but they aren't saved.
Also, those who will "look upon Him who they've pierced" will not be raptured, because they see Him from the earth At His return.

These will not be resurrected but will not be destroyed at His Coming, but will live through the millenial reign - as you can see in Revelation 20.

Blessings!

I didn't think it was proper for this post to be in the Japan thread because of it's content. It seemed better in this thread.

The writers of the NT often used the words "soon" regarding the events that they saw were going to come upon the earth in the last days.

Let me offer an example.

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Acts 2:12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?

Acts 2:13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

Acts 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:

Acts 2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams.

We are always saying that we should read scriptures in context. Now I ask everyone to please read this in it's proper grammar.

Look at what Peter was doing. He was lifting out a prophecy by the prophet Joel and explaining as to what was happening to them. And Joel was speaking of the last days, and Peter by the Holy Ghost saw it's fulfilment.

Notice the words, "THIS IS THAT".

Now ask yourself, What is "this is that" he was talking about?

The answer is in verses 4,12,15,17.

Peter was quoting from the book of Joel in reference to the out pouring of the Holy Ghost and Joel refers to that outpouring being in the last days, the Holy Ghost confirms that through the mouth of Peter.

To say that this "last days" is referring to some distant future or these days we are living in, STRONGLY admits that the promise Holy Ghost has not yet been given until the so called last days. That means that the promise that was unto them of that day, they had not received it, IF, we believe that the outpouring of the holy Spirit is in these so called last days.

We can't have it both ways. If the early Church received the Holy Ghost in that day, that means that the last days that Peter referenced from the book of Joel was happening right before their eyes. But if we say that the last days is in our future, than they have not received the promise and neither have we.

Why? Because Joel said that in the last day I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh, if we believe that to be still future, than the Holy Ghost has not yet been given.

Hi Approved,

We can't have it both ways. If the early Church received the Holy Ghost in that day, that means that the last days that Peter referenced from the book of Joel was happening right before their eyes. But if we say that the last days is in our future, than they have not received the promise and neither have we.

I haven't done this yet, but we need to take a look at why Joel might have CALLED the day of that outpouring, one of the 'last' days. It must be that he was comparing it with former days (as he was one of the later prophets), and the days in which he was living. That's only three general portions of time.

Also, because of some of the prophecy about Messiah, it's possible no-one had even begun to imagine that He would be alive on the earth for such a short time. Even Shem, who was born about the time the Ark began to be built, overlapped with Abraham for all but the last twenty-five years of Abraham's life. He had done his bit for saving mankind, and lived through most of the life of the man called to take God's plan forwards.

I think that's is totally amazing, but although these men and their successors knew they were walking with God, they didn't have a date in mind for God to make His next move. This is how we end up with a phrase like 'in the last days'. Even now, older people can be heard saying 'in my day' - and not for a moment do we think they are referring to NOW, or, to just ONE day in the past. Likewise, I think we could extend some Holy Ghost 'now' time to the ministers of the Great I Am who spoke for Him in the past.

Basically, I'm saying it's a matter of perspective, and it's the Holy Spirit who brings that to our understanding.

Hi Psalm1,

it appears you think that all tribulation suffered by believers is the great tribulation spoken of in revelation

Chapter 2:22 Behold, I [Jesus] will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

Chapter 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

So, would it be reasonable (if incorrect), to assume that the 'great tribulation' in 7:14 is the 'great tribulation' in 2:22? If not, why not?

I have two more questions. Please feel free to reply to the questions in separate posts, as it may be easier for both of us to keep our facts straight that way. :)

From Revelation 7:'... till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. 4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: [and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.'

Here's the question: are these Old Testament saints, or New Testament saints? (In other words, are these born again Christians, or not?)

You said in your second post to me:

Those left behind

This is what He had said in Matthew 7, just before He said that whoever hears His words and does them, is building their house on a rock: 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Last question:

So, by REWRITING the ends of His parables, are you effectively saying you don't BELIEVE Him? Or, are your teachers leading you away from eternal truth?

Blessings.

I haven't done this yet, but we need to take a look at why Joel might have CALLED the day of that outpouring, one of the 'last' days. It must be that he was comparing it with former days (as he was one of the later prophets), and the days in which he was living. That's only three general portions of time.

Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

I have read the context in and around this verse in Joel and I have not seen anything that says, "one of the last days" as your suggesting that he might have CALLED it. In fact there is no such wording any where in holy writ that suggests that there is more than one last days.

It does say though what Jesus said regarding His coming,, Luke 17:22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.

Where this scripture is grouped around, is around false Christs and referring to the Kingdom of God. The coming of the Son of man and the coming of the Kingdom is the same. It's just a matter of registering that into our calculations.

Hi Brother Approved. What you see from Peter's quote is a Partial quote of Joel 2. He only quoted the part that was present tense, just as Jesus only read in Luke 4 as much of Isaiah 61:1-2 in the temple that was present tense - cutting verse 2 to only reading 1/3 and then sat down and said, "This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears".

Had Peter finished quoting from Joel 2, it would not have been present tense for them - Just as Jesus could not finish reading the rest of that verse of Is 61:2 because the rest of that verse and on from there were future tense for that time as well.

When we are talking future tense - you'll find the Word uses the phrase "those days" often.

Also, I definitely believe in multiple fulfillments of OT prophesies. IF GOD had to write prophecy for each and every event for the history of man - our Bibles would be Massive. Oy, it would take a wagon to carry them around.

It would help me if I understood your thoughts on the future tense of things, to understand more fully what it is in Peter's words that had to do with "soon".

Blessings!!

Had Peter finished quoting from Joel 2, it would not have been present tense for them - Just as Jesus could not finish reading the rest of that verse of Is 61:2 because the rest of that verse and on from there were future tense for that time as well.

Acts 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

Acts 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Keep in mind this goes right along with Peter's "this is that", there are no breaks or new chapters, it's one straight flow.

You are right though, the portion that Jesus read from was coming to pass before their eyes, and you are right again when the second portion of that was future, but not too far into the future. Let me explain,

In Isaiah 61:4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.

This is not talking about a literal rebuilding of material stock, not at all. This is spiritual. I'll prove it with scripture.

Acts 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

Acts 15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

Acts 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the desolations thereof, and I will set it up:

Acts 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

Acts 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

These verses are speaking about the gentiles being brought in. Notice something that was very present tense there. "That the residue of men might seek after the Lord."

Now verse 16 is not speaking about a future rebuilding, it's speaking of a present reality because they were talking about the gentiles being accepted by God and they all came to agreement that the Prophets also spoke of the gentiles in connection to the temple. But this temple was not of any earthly material, it was His own body that He was returning to to rebuild, a habitation for His glory, which Paul speaks of in the Corinthians.

I love this dialogue, there is so much to draw out, like deep wells. Even though we may never come to any agreement, it still is fascinating in digging into the scriptures.

Blessings to u2.

Thank you Brother Approved for catching my mistake. Very good! Praise GOD!

Am semi-conscious this weekend. Sorry for that.
Hope to get some rest as Dad leaves for two days tomorrow and if nothing more happens globally to keep me awake all night again.

Bless you Brother. Hope to talk more soon - amen.

Edited by addition of OC extract. See below original post.

Hello psalm1,

Instead of attacking my faith and character why not show me the "correct interpretation"

You have quoted me a lot of scripture, so I thought it would be okay to ask you to do some close reading. For instance, I was quite surprised at the first quote from Revelation 2, and I was sure you'd spot that the person promising to give a certain person 'great tribulation', is Jesus Himself. Now this is not my idea of ANY kind of tribulation, which I associate (as you do) with persecution. In that particular instance, it was to be a chastening in hope of bringing about repentance. This is not really 'persecution' as Jesus described it in the Sermon on the Mount.

Regarding this oft-repeated scenario of the antiChrist beheading all the Christians left on earth after the other Christians have been raptured (before the 'great tribulation'), I am bemused by the lack of reference to those saints who were beheaded in the first century AD, such as the apostle Paul. Please can you tell why they are never mentioned in the version of pre-trib doctrine which you expressed, and where they are now, or will be, at the rapture?

My view of the rapture and end times is Bride/Bridegroom/Wedding centered

What I don't agree is that anyone of whom Christ says, 'Depart from me, I never knew you', is going to either attend the marriage supper of the Lamb as a guest, or, as a part of the Bride. There is a betrothal ceremony which precedes Jewish weddings by some time (months), when the arrangement to marry is fixed, and the couple make a commitment to each other. It is clear that the people to whom Christ says, 'I never knew you', are those who have not made a meaningful commitment to Him. If they had, showing it by doing the will of His Father, He would have been able to recognise them.

About the twelve tribes, I don't know the answer for sure, except to say they are referred to as 'servants', which may mean they are from the Old Testament era, because New Testament saints are sons, as the comparison shows, between the two verses below.

Hebrews 3:5 And Moses verily [was] faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; 6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

EDIT: also these verses:

John 3:29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together.

THE DISCIPLINE OF DIFFICULTY ~ Oswald Chambers,
My Utmost for His Highest, August 2nd.

"In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." John 16:33

An average view of the Christian life is that it means deliverance from trouble. It is deliverance IN trouble, which is very different. "He that dwelleth in the secret place of the Most High . . . THERE shall no evil befall thee" - no plague can come nigh the place where you are at one with God.

If you are a child of God, there certainly will be troubles to meet, but Jesus says do not be surprised when they come. "In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world, there is nothing for you to fear." Men who before they were saved would scorn to talk about troubles, often become "fushionless" after being born again because they have a wrong idea of a saint.

God does not give us overcoming life: He gives us life as we overcome. The strain is the strength. If there is no strain, there is no strength. Are you asking God to give you life and liberty and joy? He cannot, unless you will accept the strain. Immediately you face the strain, you will get the strength. Overcome your own timidity and take the step, and God will give you to eat of the tree of life and you will get nourishment. If you spend yourself out physically, you become exhausted; but spend yourself spiritually, and you get more strength. God never gives strength for to-morrow, or for the next hour, but only for the strain of the minute. The temptation is to face difficulties from a common-sense standpoint. The saint is hilarious when he is crushed with difficulties because the thing is so ludicrously impossible to anyone but God.

The saint is hilarious when he is crushed with difficulties because the thing is so ludicrously impossible to anyone but God.
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Wow, Linn...you understand my long nights alone with God and no sleep a lot better than I would have hoped.

And yes, the laughter is ludicrous...in fact, hysterical is the word I would use.

I think that last sentence is a cracker! I lost track of where I'd posted it, so it's a real blessing to see it again. This time I won't lose it!